Cops Handcuffed, Arrested a Uvalde Mom for Trying To Rescue Her Kids
Why did it take an hour for the police to stop alleged killer Salvador Ramos?

The performance of law enforcement during the mass school shooting at Robb Elementary in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday appears to have been even worse than previously known.
Early reporting that a school resource officer confronted alleged killer Salvador Ramos and engaged him in a gunfight was erroneous. At a press conference on Thursday, Texas Department of Public Safety spokesperson Chris Olivarez clarified that no such confrontation took place and became increasingly irritated as journalists pressed him to explain the source of the misinformation.
Ramos entered through an unlocked door and faced no opposition until the police arrived several minutes later. He then became barricaded in a classroom, and the police failed to gain access and neutralize him for the next hour. It is likely that most of his victims—perhaps all of them—died in that classroom.
As that hour elapsed, desperately frightened parents arrived outside the school and were prevented from entering by law enforcement. Video footage obtained by The New York Times shows parents frantically begging the police to either enter the school and intervene or get out of the way so that they could rescue their kids themselves. Their pleas were in vain.
In fact, it took the police so long to get the situation under control that one mother who was 40 miles away when she learned about the shooting had enough time to drive to the school. According to The Wall Street Journal, police arrested and handcuffed her to prevent her from trying to save her children:
Ms. Gomez, a farm supervisor, said that she was one of numerous parents who began encouraging—first politely, and then with more urgency—police and other law enforcement to enter the school. After a few minutes, she said, federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for intervening in an active investigation.
Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her, the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.
It's understandable that the police would not want to contend with the mayhem of parents storming the school themselves. But the apparent fact that they exerted considerable effort to keep parents at bay while failing to dislodge the shooter—who was actively murdering the kids inside the room with him—is disgusting. Any significant delay in gaining access to the shooter's classroom is hard to explain in light of the fact that Uvalde employs a SWAT Team for this very purpose.
These alleged failures bear some similarity to what transpired during the 2018 Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Parkland, Florida. In that instance, School Resource Officer Scot Peterson hid instead of confronting the active shooter, Nikolas Cruz, who would ultimately kill 17 people. It was eventually revealed that Cruz—a disturbed teenager with a long history of violent, threatening, and anti-social behavior—was well-known to various law enforcement agencies, including the county sheriff's office and even the FBI.
The public deserves answers about exactly what transpired in Uvalde on Tuesday and why these questionable decisions were made. Rep. Joaquin Castro (D–Texas) has called for an investigation of the timeline: Any public official whose actions detracted from the urgent need to save the lives of all those kids should be held fully accountable.
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Apparently there was no school resource officer, and the shooter entered the school via an unlocked door.
Also, while police prevented parents from getting their kids, some police went in and got their own kids
This WSJ Article has the most context I have seen so far:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/uvalde-residents-voice-frustration-over-shooting-response-11653588161
Key points:
By the time many of these people arrived, the damage had been done. Ramos killed everyone in the classroom, and just stayed in that room until the SWAT team could breach the door and kill him.
* But this was still after around 12 minutes of him shooting outside the school- but the school did not get locked down.
* It was also after many police had encountered him, and a couple had been shot. But as soon as he went into the school, they seem to have disengaged and set up a perimeter.
* Yes a Texas State Patrolman (not his jurisdiction) showed up with a friend (whose wife was killed by Ramos) and they SNUCK past the police and tried getting many kids out.
"Mr. Maldonado said he and the friend were able to enter the building to get students out and showed cuts on his forearms that he said were from breaking windows to assist in that effort."
* A mother did the same thing:
"Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her, the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them."
It is important to note that these kids were all in the school while a shooter was in a classroom nearby, having killed all that class's occupants. Yes the damage had been done. But had this been anything like Sandy Hook, he could have been going room to room killing people, while police sat by.
A lot of hay will be made about when intervention could or could not have helped. But, at the end of the day, when a shooter is in the building, we expect police to go in and keep going in, at risk to their own lives, even if it delays the shooter a bit. That is what they are expected to do.
Instead they stood there and pepper-sprayed parents for being willing to do what they wouldn't.
Reports are he fired for 12 minutes outside of the school, and still, nobody locked the doors. WTF!?
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/go-there-distraught-parents-begged-texas-cops-enter-school-gunman-inside-hour
How did he gain entrance to the school? All of the doors at our school are electronically locked from the outside and have cameras. All public schools in Montana are required to have these safety measures (it's mainly about stopping child abductions). For what I know all schools are required to do this. You can open the doors from the inside but can't gain access from the outside. A simple measure like this would have made it much harder for him to gain entrance and given the cops a possibility of engaging him outside the school. Also, I thought as soon as something like this occurs SOP is for the teachers to lock the doors to their classrooms and barricade in place. It seems like a lot of time occurred with him outside the school in which the teachers should have been either evacuating the kids or locking the classrooms and barricading the doors. Seems like a lot of procedures weren't followed.
Also, I thought that everyone has agreed since Sandyhook and Columbine that police should enter the school as soon as they arrive, even if they enter alone. The faster they enter and confront the perp, the fewer casualties. Setting up a perimeter and disengaging is the last thing you are supposed to do.
^^ I thought the same. So did everyone except the US Marshals, Border Patrol and Local Police on scene.
"Setting up a perimeter and disengaging is the last thing you are supposed to do."
And ensuring not only they werent going in, but also that no one else could. Essentially ensuring the shooter had 100% free reign. Its precisely the opposite of the right move.
Hmm
https://twitter.com/emeriticus/status/1530050773790384128?t=LzwFNpSQG4BIJuZqG0B5zA&s=19
A "retired federal agent" had been in regular communication with the Buffalo shooter in an online chat room before the incident
[Link]
Is that really surprising?
The faster they enter and confront the perp, the fewer casualties.
That only applies to officers prepared to do their jobs. Doesn't work for craven assholes like the ones in this case.
-jcr
If true this is absolutely sickening and every officer that was on scene that day should be fired and publicly humiliated... what's the point of even having police in this case? Just as a clean up crew?
No, they're there to prevent anyone from taking the perp out before maximum political utility is achieved.
-jcr
*tin foil hat on*
Unless they did it on purpose
*tin foil hat off*
Negative, this doesn’t align with the way the federal Marshall’s designed this op. They needed a certain amount of kids to die in order to pull whatever political stunt their superiors need us to focus on. Apparently it’s a gun grab? Or just keep our thoughts off the 40 billion? Or is it a distraction from Sussman? Or biden’s dementia and plans for war with china? Or is it Covid 99? No wait, maybe it’s the millions at the border being let in? Monkeypox? Nato? Inflation?
I think we are all beginning to notice the sequential dog and pony shows that keep being flashed before our eyes. Whether these are false flags, fake events, or real events with no government collusion, the strategy is transparent: continue with outrageous optics every time you need to do some back door dealing.
Someone let the neocons out - but why such a flurry of activity every damn day?
That is the official policy of most police forces.
Cops have one job only ...... that is to protect their pensions.
Yeah,the Cheshire,Corrupticut Police gathered outside
while a Doctor's wife and daughters were raped
and killed and nobody even lost their job.
"How did he gain entrance to the school?"
According to the WSJ article, he (the State Patrol officer) was displaying cuts up and down his forearms from where he busted through a window. I don't know if that is how he got in. We know Ramos (May he be fucked by a thousand rusty hell demons) walked in through the unlocked back door of the school, despite firing shots repeatedly around the campus. *shrug*
That's it why was the back door unlocked.
One article I read noted there was some sort of award ceremony that day, and parents were coming and going all morning.
He shot at the outside of the school supposedly for 12 minutes... maybe a good idea would've been to lock the doors at this point?!?
I read a report from the local police presser today that a teacher had propped the door open - possibly due to this awards ceremony.
And FWIW: My kids' school is the same way. Most classrooms only have a single entrance from the outside, and a few are merely connected to a few other classrooms. They all have easily breached windows. These aren't fortresses. They were created in the early 80s and would need to be knocked over and rebuilt to get any semblance of security.
Even flimsy doors slow someone down. You could also push desks and chairs behind the door to slow them even further.
The ultimate solution and prevention of
crimes like this is to encourage,train and arm
any willing teachers-and make sure there
are a few in every school.Maybe as a
condition for employment.
They were created in the early 80s and would need to be knocked over and rebuilt to get any semblance of security.
TL,DR; I've never been convinced the 'shelter in place' methodology has been a recipe for anything other than ensuring the fish stay in the barrel for shooting. Especially in gun-free zones.
IDK about Uvalde, but my Jr.-Sr. HS, in the 80s, all doors were locked from the outside. Even internally, gates swung closed to prevent access from (e.g.) the gym to the cafeteria to the classrooms. Hell, even my grade school was pretty similar. I'm pretty sure you could get in through some of the utility doors in the back, but if you were shooting around outside, unless you had a plan for walking through the boiler room, the locker rooms, the gym and to the classroom, you were just going to wind up barricading yourself in an empty school.
After Sandy Hook, all 3 of my kids' schools were retrofitted with cameras, open door sensors, and single-entry vestibules that you buzz the secretary inside to gain access to.
Of course, none of it means dick if the track coach wedges a doorstop in the back door, the shop class leaves the overhead door open to wheel equipment in and out, or the weightlifters use a brick to prop the door open and let the heat out, but assuming public servants do their jobs locking a school down in case of emergency, you aren't getting in without shimmying down an air ducts or something.
Not schools here. They are basically campuses of dozens of small, 1, 2, or 4 room buildings.
I agree the most appropriate response during an active shooter situation is for everyone to flee. But where do they flee to? WHere does a first grader go after their teacher is dead or separated.
If they go running and end up hit by a car, isn't that carnage nearly as good to these crazies?
But where do they flee to? WHere does a first grader go after their teacher is dead or separated.
Varyingly:
The challenge telling a first grade boy fleeing school where to go, it's finding where he went. Even the relatively timid first grader can simply follow a/the other first graders, second graders, etc. It sounds pretty cruel. The vast majority of kids don't have a problem with hide and seek. But there are corner cases where there's no helping (wrt evacuation plans and mustering) the first grader who has to flee and doesn't have any teachers or fellow students to follow.
Similarly, crazies with a desire to kill students en masse will always have crazy plans to kill students en masse. Absent herding them all onto a bus and then dropping the bus into the middle of moving traffic I don't see how you'd kill 18 of them so, uh, not as good for the crazies I guess.
I've never been convinced the 'shelter in place' methodology has been a recipe for anything other than ensuring the fish stay in the barrel for shooting.
The purpose of the idiotic "cower in a corner and hope the bad man goes away" policy is to maximize the casualties to give lefturd politicians more deaths to exploit to try to convince the public to abandon all hope of self-defense.
-jcr
I agree....
Do you know how insane that sounds to someone who graduated from HS in the mid 1970s? Locking schools down like that?
There is a lot more to these school shootings than the schools not being locked down.
Public schools should not be prisons.
Might I suggest a mass sickness, fomented by the publication of the names of the perps across the entire nation which results in the fame they so seek? Even if they have to die to get it.
It's mass hysteria circa 2020. Not unlike the Salem witch trials or the McMartin Preschool case. Just a new twist.
Governor Abbott wasn't wrong in his assertion of mental illness issues.
Apparently - and this was news to me - cops do not have a sworn duty to keep civilians safe.
Police Have No Duty to Protect You, Federal Court Affirms Yet Again
12/20/2018 Ryan McMaken
Following last February's shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, some students claimed local government officials were at fault for failing to provide protection to students. The students filed suit, naming six defendants, including the Broward school district and the Broward Sheriff’s Office , as well as school deputy Scot Peterson and campus monitor Andrew Medina.
On Monday, though, a federal judge ruled that the government agencies " had no constitutional duty to protect students who were not in custody."
This latest decision adds to a growing body of case law establishing that government agencies — including police agencies — have no duty to provide protection to citizens in general:
“Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed out.
Moreover, even though the state of Florida has compulsory schooling laws, the students themselves are not "in custody":
“Courts have rejected the argument that students are in custody of school officials while they are on campus,” Mr. Hutchinson said. “Custody is narrowly confined to situations where a person loses his or her freedom to move freely and seek assistance on their own — such as prisons, jails, or mental institutions.”
Hutchinson is right.
The US Supreme Court has made it clear that law enforcement agencies are not required to provide protection to the citizens who are forced to pay the police for their "services."
In the cases DeShaney vs. Winnebago and Town of Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect the lives and property of others — even when a threat is apparent.
In both of these court cases, clear and repeated threats were made against the safety of children — but government agencies chose to take no action.
A consideration of these facts does not necessarily lead us to the conclusion that law enforcement agencies are somehow on the hook for every violent act committed by private citizens.
This reality does belie the often-made claim, however, that police agencies deserve the tax money and obedience of local citizens because the agencies "keep us safe."
Nevertheless, we are told there is an agreement here — a "social contract" — between government agencies and the taxpayers and citizens.
And, by the very nature of being a contract, we are meant to believe this is a two-way street. The taxpayers are required to submit to a government monopoly on force, and to pay these agencies taxes.
In return, these government agents will provide services. In the case of police agencies, these services are summed up by the phrase "to protect and serve" — a motto that has in recent decades been adopted by numerous police agencies.
But what happens when those police agencies don't protect and serve? That is, what happens when one party in this alleged social contract doesn't keep up its end of the bargain.
The answer is: very little.
The taxpayers will still have to pay their taxes and submit to police agencies as lawful authority. If the agencies or individual agents are forced to pay as a result of lawsuits, it's the taxpayers who will pay for that too.
Oh sure, the senior leadership positions may change, but the enormous agency budgets will remain, the government agents themselves will continue to collect generous salaries and pensions, and no government will surrender its monopoly on the use of force.
" some police went in and got their own kids"
If true I do not blame them, but would recommend to them that they keep moving themselves and their children away from the scene.
Far, far away from the scene.
Don't even look back, do not pass go, do not collect your final paycheck.
Just fucking go.
Again, the evidence is that a Texas State Patrolman went in with another adult. That he was a cop was immaterial- it wasn't his police scene. And by these accounts, he was helping many kids not his own escape.
I don't think the elected local police officials are going to do well in the next election.
No they won't. The other corrupt half of the force-initiating looter kleptocracy will get its tentacles on the payroll. Nixon's anti-libertarian law subsidizes violent looter parties to keep the libertarians from racking up law-changing spoiler votes. When's the last time you heard a looter talk about repeal or sunsetting that law?
But what about girl bullying?
And the ‘Gee oh Pee’
And TRUMP!!!
One feed from a mouth breather yesterday claimed we needed to get rid of "Trump's 2nd Amendment"!
Yeah, they're unemployable in Texas, unless they're being paid with Soros money to work on Beta's next campaign.
-jcr
That's a Mayor and Council issue not a cop's were negligent issue. Cops only, did not go in and get their kids. The quote is being misread. The man said '....officers, families,....' (not just officers but family members) went in to get their kids. If you got there before the scene was locked down 'families' went in to get their kids out. Cops of course heard it on the radio and go there first but families got there too and went in. Talk about a lie going around the universe before the truth gets its boots on!
When you say "school" you mean government school, right?
Even worse, there WAS a school resource officer but he didn't confront the shooter like was claimed.
Instead the school resource officer heard about the 911 call, drove PAST THE SHOOTER as the shooter was crouched behind a car firing at the school, and then went and harassed a teacher outside who he decided must be the shooter, while the shooter then slipped in through the propped-open door and started his rampage.
It being Texas, I'm a little surprised no one shot the cops after they were proving to be accomplices to the murders.
Hmm. Good reminder that you shouldn't believe anything reported about incidents like this for at least a week.
Journalism is dead. What remains merely exists to facilitate social signaling, why believe any of it?
Fog of war.
Social Signaling? Nah, just good old fashioned propaganda of the type that would have made Gobbles proud.
+1
But, to be fair, because it sells. You know, clicks and eyeballs. Eyeballs and clicks.
Money makes the world go round, the world go round.
This enough for you, white Mike?
I bet if a local politician or someone in the police department had a kid at that school, the cops would have stormed it like a small army.
They look out for their own, and that's it. Everyone else exists to obey.
If JeremyR above is to be believed, some cops did get their own kids out. I guess none had kids in the classroom with the shooter.
The cop helped get several kids out. He was a State Trooper, and it wasn't his jurisdiction. He snuck in and broke windows to get kids out on his own, helping a friend. Not clear if it was his kids or not.
I bet $20 he'll quietly lose his job.
So a state trooper was rescuing kids, while a border patrol agent took down the shooter, and the local cops arrested parents......yeah, elections are going to be a blood bath in that town.
There were pics of US marshals there also. Two ferderal and three local law enforcement agencies and it took over an hour to get in there. Clearly more funding/training is required.
Clearly everyone there needs to lose their badge, particularly the local cops who were assaulting and arresting parents instead of doing their jobs. Spend the time to properly train police that actually are interested in doing their job, and let the local parents form a posse in the meantime in the event of any other incidents like this.
If any of you had worked in government and participated in table top scenarios for interagency cooperation as I have, you'd know that the first order of business is jurisdiction. And there are more egos involved there than anything Kardashian you've ever witnessed.
At one SF Bay Area planning event I attended as a representative of our agency, the scenario was a release of Sarin in and underground BART station in SF. The first fortyfive minutes were spent with the SFPD arguing with the FBI and BART police over who would have jursidiction in that case.
I always said I was going to write a book about my 20 years in public agency work and title it: "If They Only Knew". The public has no clue. Other than to refer to a mythical agency known as "They" to solve any problem that is enountered.
When are "they" going to fix those potholes.
When are "they" going to post signs.
Whey are "they" going to stand up to the teacher's union.
When are "they" going to..........
And so it goes. Despite hard work by many public agencies to obtain input from the public in the first place.
The border patrol was the swat unit, according to the WSJ article. It is the "Border Rapid Response Team" or whatever.
It only took them an hour. That's a new record!
Coming from 70 miles away!
Nope, they won't make it until the elections. This is one where the left and the right in Texas will unite to have them fired. The left and right will still argue about gun control and such but that Sheriff and Police Chief will be gone very soon.
...or be shot. Looter laws set the example. So who acts all surprised and shocked when someone decides that violence against the innocent is a good idea? The government is doing it... therefore...
He then became barricaded in a classroom...
Don't you start in with the passive voice!
....the kids were then killed by a gun...
Any significant delay in gaining access to the shooter's classroom is hard to explain in light of the fact that Uvalde employs a SWAT Team for this very purpose.
LOL! SWAT teams are for executing warrants (and dogs).
Go to the Active Self Protection channel on YouTube and you can watch hours of video of these Swat teams going in guns blazing to bust some lowlife nobody drug dealer without respect to public safety, but some skinny 18 year old trans wannabe goes into the school and shoots it up they set up a “perimeter” and follow proper protocol. A goddamn hour before the did anything. Truly Bizarro World.
Police lie when they say dynamic entries are because a suspect is dangerous. If a suspect is dangerous, they form a perimeter, just like this. Plus there is no actual evidence that no knock entries protect police anyways (indeed, there is some to the contrary). Those types of raids are for projecting power, not safety. This means cops are institutionally cowards, it's official policy for them to protect themselves above everything else in most cases.
Dynamic entries are about preserving evidence.
This. End the drug war.
So... "dynamic" means no-knock, shoot dog and kill people before they can flush the plant leaves?
If they want to break into a house and endanger everyone in the neighborhood, they'd better already have a mountain of evidence. They don't care about endangering everyone, though... anything to make their jobs easier and more fun.
They had to make sure their pensions were being protected and that possible bonuses would be forth coming.
Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.
REPEAT OFFENDER, YOUR HONOR.
Actually, if true, this is remarkable and a woman worthy of a movie treatment.
I was about to say. I don't know a jury in Texas that would convict that women, a couple might try to convince the judge to give her a medal.
In all fairness guys, there is nothing worse than fifty parents descending on a school with an active shooter situation, intent on removing THEIR children from said school, come hell or high water.
I've dealt with this mentality. People believe that they can just get in and get out, saving their progeny, with no impact on anyone else in situations like this. It's akin to the enlisted in a platoon taking individual actions during a fire fight with no regard to the overall good for the unit.
You'd all be screaming at law enforcement if some of those parents were subsequently wounded or killed or more children were, because they failed to restrain the desperate parents for their selfish actions.
You're Kidding is so calm, so rational, and so full of it. If - IF - the police were doing their job, untrained parents would be well advised to stay out of the way.
But when our "protectors" are standing around playing picket pool, with a few clusters of our "defenders" are having a circle jerk, while rounds are popping in school, a parent or group of them with children in the building is/are justified in using whatever force against whomever is obstructing their efforts to rescue their offspring. What does it say about the father who would, "on the orders of authorities", allow his child or children to be sacrificed to "protocol"? What does it say about the testosterone level of American males that it was a mother who dared to jump the fence, make entry and retrieve her cubs?
And this is why I’ll never disarm.
It goes to show that cops aren't there to protect you, they're there to enforce the law...and protect themselves in the process
And protect their pensions.
exactly right. what do people expect when you advertise a "gun free zone". anyone who thinks that is a good idea is completely insane. law abiding citizens should absolutely be allowed to carry firearms into and around schools.
After a few minutes, she said, federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for intervening in an active investigation.
Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her, the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed.
We can clearly see who was interfering with the investigation, and it wasn't the parents. But I will say that personally, I don't think the police or the marshals should be arrested without being given the opportunity to commit suicide first.
Fire the cops. No Excuse.
If they had gone in to stop the shooter they would have been fired for violating every police department's zero tolerance policy for compromising officer safety.
I'm serious. One of the few things that can get a cop fired is putting themselves in danger.
I know.
It's probably still early enough to get a referendum on the ballot down there. Let the locals decide, even if the can't make it stick.
rather be fired for trying hard.
For every cop I've known being a cop isn't a job, it's an identity. It's not what they do, it's who they are. The last thing they're going to do is risk getting blackballed for putting themselves in danger. That's serious shit. If they get fired for excessive force or violating rights or framing someone or rape or murder, they can easily get a job in the next county. But putting themselves (or even worse another officer) in danger? Nope. They will never work in law enforcement again.
How did Cordell Walker become the most decorated Texas Ranger then?
If only the courts hadn't ruled that cops can't be held liable for failing to protect people.
If schools want armed security, they need to stop using off-duty cops and start hiring military vets. Make it completely clear that their job is to take out any attacker or die trying.
Set up their pay with huge bonuses for active shooters stopped less a penalty for every student injured.
Yes, I like to call this institutional cowardice. They may not have been fired due to the public response, but under normal circumstances police policy is to protect themselves above everything else. It's more important than the life or rights of us peons.
"Yes, I like to call this institutional cowardice. "
Systemic Wussism
Absolutely. Just watch some videos taken where the cops stop a stolen vehicle. They make no effort what so ever to even approach the car and remove the perp. Instead even if it takes 12 hours for the perp to surrender, so what? Just watch these clown in actions and you'll be disgusted.
Is it any wonder that cops are losing respect and support from the public.
I hope someone runs for police chief and fires all these MFers.
If the Sheriff values his job, there are going to be some sacrificial lamb firings coming out soon. The way the witness describes it, the whole situation was about to become a riot because the cops refused to breach in a timely manner.
If only we had more police and guns maybe we could prevent this from happening?
Yeah, I know I am trolling. It's a reductio argument playing out in real life. We are reaching a tipping point where everyone needs to be armed to the teeth to prevent everyone from being shot by everyone else armed to the teeth.
"We are reaching a tipping point where everyone needs to be armed to the teeth".
Not everyone needs to be armed, just enough so that there is a likelihood that one or more people are armed, and it is not clear who those may be.
"Disarm the people and defend the police!"
I love it when leftists proclaim their stupidity so proudly.
*defund, not defend
"If only we had more police and guns maybe we could prevent this from happening?"
Eat shit and die, asshole.
Slowly getting more armed and more plans to carry.
No, we’re not, you chicken little moron.
No; if you had (sealed) borders language and culture (assimilation) a strong 'Church' and an intact two parent Family and an open (voucher) education system for the three 'ares' you'd need less police and people would not feel compelled to arm themselves just for the sake of arming Those are the targets of the left and for good reason. Once we have totally divided ourselves - some form of centralized government will fill the vacuum.
hurra por senora Gomez.
Cops Handcuffed, Arrested a Uvalde Mom for Trying To Rescue Her Kids
This is a microcosm of our country right now.
The McCloskey’s agree with you.
You know you fucked up when more anger is aimed at you than the maniac. Way to go boys in blue!
Was Lt. Dangle in charge?
Barney Fife!
Active shooter; inactive police. A theme of these mass killing events, it seems. Almost as if someone ordered them to stand down.
and unlock the fucking door. and send Officer Bearclaw out for coffee
You might want to consider just that idea as being a reality.
Once again, just like in Florida, police stood around with their thumbs up their asses, fucked with children's parents, and did ANYTHING but go in after that guy. Makes you wonder what would have happened if the Border Patrol hadn't shown up. The "federal marshals" who arrested Mrs. Gomez need to be fired, but we all know nothing will happen to them. Lives could have been saved. These "law enforcement personnel" are why people no longer have faith, trust, or confidence in law enforcement, not to mention government and the judiciary.
The lefty's 'common sense' gun laws say we should surrender all of our means of self defense and trust in law enforcement to protect us...hmmm, that doesn't seem to make any sense at all to me common or otherwise
What I see is a complicated and complex situation. This is why the idea of having armed teachers and school official is unlikely to help. An individual today can buy the type of weaponry that will allow them to simple hold off a small police force. Remember this is what sells some of these weapons. When I think about historical raids at Entebbe Airport or the team that killed OBL, I think about the training that went into those teams. These police officer had nothing like that training. Had they just charged the suspect there might be six more dead officers before one made it to kill the suspect.
This doesn't look good for the police, but I am not sure they had a better option.
6 dead officers seems better than 19 dead kids.
To
protect and servewait and see.6 *maybe* dead officers, but who have tactical training, weaponry, armor, and a damn good fighting chance vs 19 kids waiting for slaughter.
Not to mention a 6-1 firearm advantage.
Not to a State Supremacist (aka leftist/democrat)
Except you have no way of knowing how that would have played out. Everyone is a genius in hindsight. If the cops went in and a kid or two or more died in a prospective shootout, the "story" would be that the police should have shown more caution.
Or casualties from friendly fire.
But the cops did nothing and the “story” is 19 dead children. You seem obsessed with a “story”. People responsible for children’s lives should be concerned with children’s lives, not the “story”.
Did you attend the Lying Jeffy school of philosophy class of sophistry?
The facts as presented above indicates 6 dead officers 19 live children wasn't a possible outcome. Probably the most certain outcome was 0-6 dead officers and 0-19 dead children. If it were 3 dead officers and 3 dead children IDK that anyone would be celebrating.
Pretty sure at least some people on Twitter would still be calling to take away peoples' guns and defund the police.
A lot more parents would be celebrating that their kids didn't get killed when the crazy piece of shit attacked the school.
It isn't "sophistry".
You're laboring under the assumption that the alternative action-- as when compared to the police's (alleged) inaction-- would have produced a better outcome. You nor I nor anyone else can say that assumption is correct with any amount of certainty. The cops could have "gone in" and no kids could have died. The cops could have "gone in" and 50 kids could have died.
We don't know.
It's easy to moralize after the fact.
(And fwiw, there's no doubt in my mind that if the cops had "gone in" and even one child was killed as a result, we'd be discussing whether or no they should have acted at all.)
It isn't "sophistry".
On the contrary, it's all, both sides, sophistry. We aren't there bouncing our hypotheses off of facts on the ground and having our potentially-false assumptions tested against reality. As R Mac pointed out on the other thread, cops go in 0 dead cops 0 dead parents isn't a real outcome, parents go in 0 dead parents 0 dead kids isn't either. Teachers lock the doors appropriately in the event of shooting, 0 dead kids is closer to reality than either of the above. Everything else is just spitballing potential better outcomes with no real application to reality or policies for dealing with it.
Let alone if one of these unruly and justifiably upset parents had been shot by police going in and not keeping them under control. EOD the teachers should be armed to be allowed to defend their kids or those nearby.
The police sat there for an HOUR. All while the perp continued to shoot children, while children bled out on the floor of their classroom. All while kids inside desperately called 911 all during that HOUR, pleading for help, shots audible in the 911 calls, giving a grim tally of how many people were now left alive as he took victim after victim. Get out of here with that shit, bootlicker.
Shot maybe, dead possibly.
But it's not like they were going to be left bleeding out for an entire hour.
The cops would have tazed and pepper sprayed her after she was shot.
I felt my life was in danger!
" This is why the idea of having armed teachers and school official is unlikely to help."
Yes, it is likely to help. Israel has experienced success with this approach. Voluntarily armed staff create an environment where the shooter doesn't know who may be armed. In the two school shooting incidents that have occurred in Israel since 1974, the shooters were taken out by armed teachers.
Gun free zones enable a shooter. They won't attempt a shooting if there might be guns among their prey.
"Gun free zones" = target-rich environments.
Yes, that's what's going to stop someone who wants to mass murder children, the thought that he might be resisted.
Of course it's obviously necessary to let people who think that way buy as many AR-15s as their heart desires.
"Yes, that's what's going to stop someone who wants to mass murder children, the thought that he might be resisted."
Well being that it keeps happening in environments where the shooter is all but guaranteed to not encounter anyone else with a firearm...yes, you are correct.
^How to destroy Tony in one sentence.
The shitbag Tony does well on his own every time he sits down at the keyboard.
Yup, can be seen below. It would be comical, were it not such a serious, permanent condition.
Environments like schools, churches, outdoor concerts, grocery stores? Do you even think about the things you think? We're plausibly a civilized society. Most spaces are not filled with armed people.
But I would note that gang territories in "inner cities" are pretty well armed but people are shot there all the time. So...
The US has a uniquely large number of guns and a uniquely large number of gun deaths. The only reason you refuse to do the math is because you're a propaganda-addled simpleton.
“The US has a uniquely large number of guns and a uniquely large number of gun deaths.”
Any country with increased numbers of guns will have increased gun deaths because they are available. For example, people use them to commit suicide painlessly if they so choose. Gang members kill each other too. Regular people are not very affected by “gun deaths”. They are still low compared to, say, traffic deaths. But you are a simpleton, so this will not compute.
The US also has a uniquely large number of freedoms. And they will stay. You folks are just anxiously pre-coping for the midterms.
Freedom is brains splattered on walls.
The talking point on the left today seems to be that arming folks is useless and counterproductive.
They dont seem to be able to answer the fact that near 100% of these incidents happen in gun-free zones. A cowardly outcast kid is not going to chance having to go up against firepower, ever. They always go where they can slaughter people and know they will not face a challenge until the police come and kill them.
Give teachers the option to carry and I would bet 100% of shootings happen in the gun-free schools and 0% happen in the schools with teachers packing.
I don't know if you can call these assholes cowards. They all are pretty sure they are going to be killed eventually. So it may be more that they attack in situations where they know they will score some kills before they are killed themselves.
They are cowards because they are going up against people who have zero defense against them.
He didn't have enough weaponry to hold off jack shit, the cowards were just too scared to use their overwhelming numbers.
This is why the idea of having armed teachers and school official is unlikely to help
An individual today can buy the type of weaponry that will allow them to simple hold off a small police force
Which is it? Are they wonderweapons hold off throngs of Navy Seals all on their own, or are they useless paperweights in the face of an aggressive attacker?
*wonderweapons that can hold off...
A guy with a semi-automatic .223 rifle cannot hold off a small police force. It's a gun that can't even be used for hunting deer in most places because it's not lethal enough.
LOL
Again, I love it when leftists so proudly proclaim their stupidity.
A "small police force" can put more steel downrange than 1 shooter, no matter what his weapon is. At close range, in an area the size of a classroom or school hallway, a rifle offers no advantage over a pistol.
…except for the greater magazine capacity, more consistent shot placement, more power (for most rounds), and a recoil that is easier to manage.
except for the greater magazine capacity
Irrelevant at close range. and police generally have 13 round mags, more consistent shot placement
Irrelevant at close range
more power (for most rounds)
5.56 - 52 grains; 9mm - 124 grains. Lots of stopping power at close range.
and a recoil that is easier to manage.
It's called training.
YOU WROTE: “Irrelevant at close range. and police generally have 13 round mags.”
MY RESPONSE: Negative. Almost all American classrooms are filled with desks and other furnishings which may afford one cover. Thus, greater magazine capacities are, in fact, an advantage. And while I shouldn’t have to point this out, I will anyway. 30-round magazines—which are fairly common for AR-15 rifles—afford more capacity than 13-round magazines.
YOU WROTE: “Irrelevant at close range.”
MY RESPONSE: Negative. Shot placement is critical in a firefight.
YOU WROTE: “ 5.56 - 52 grains; 9mm - 124 grains. Lots of stopping power at close range.”
MY RESPONSE: I agree that the aforementioned round afford a lot of “stopping power at close range.” However, this discussion isn’t about whether rounds from handguns offer lots of stopping power at close range; it’s about which weapon system is likely to afford a shooter more power.
YOU WROTE: “It’s called training.”
MY RESPONSE: Sure, okay. Anyway, let’s resolve whether recoil is generally easier to manage with rifles than it is with pistols.
MY RESPONSE: Sure, okay.
So, right there, you agree that it's the man, not the gun or the bullet and then proceed to wade off into the weeds.
YOU WROTE: “ So, right there, you agree that it's the man, not the gun or the bullet and then proceed to wade off into the weeds.”
What? I correctly noted that rifles tend to be more lethal than pistols, and I suggested that we resolve whether recoils is easier to manage with rifles than it is with pistols. How is that “wad[ing] off into the weeds”?
Right, because everybody knows that classroom desks stop 9mm rounds.
It’s almost as if the police don’t carry bonded rounds that are able to penetrate car windows and car doors.
What a stupid argument. The same magical rounds the bad guy uses inversely renders the police’s rounds useless. Great argument smooth brain.
You sound both wise and reasoned, but you really don't know much about firearms or wound ballistics, do you? {Expecting response that he served in two wars and graduated with honors from trauma surgeon training.]
Hahahahahaha
^This. I'm sure several of those police were also armed with AR-15s or even M-16/M-4s considering all the guns the DoD has given to police forces. Six armed deputies, some with the same or better long arms, against one guy. He also wouldn't be killing kids while he is trying to hold off the cops. He'll also have to expose himself to return fire, which gives someone who's a good shot to put him down.
And don't they have flashbangs?
Maybe toss a couple of those then go in...
In the confusion of how he got in the school, I'm still not entirely clear on the factual nature of this. Not that I don't think 6 cops could overcome one shooter but, if you said one shooter took hostages and held cops off for 20-30 or more minutes. Or 6 random officers can't generally resolve a shooting situation with civilians on the scene in under 20 min. I wouldn't disagree with the assessment. There are armed forces that can and teams that are trained to and, apparently, the city has a SWAT team that should've but that's getting into wishes and assholes territory.
Most cops are lousy shooters. Most of them couldn't pass the Army's standards let alone the Marines.
"An individual today can buy the type of weaponry that will allow them to simple hold off a small police force."
That isnt what happened here. A little twerp with no training or skills "held off" the police force because they stopped pursuing him. A single person with a rifle does not turn into Rambo, especially one with zero training, and cannot hold off a police force (that is actually trying). They should be embarrassed and shamed, allowing him to go on a rampage on innocent kids because they wouldn't risk their asses and overwhelm him with their large firepower, armor, and training advantage. Because it meant a chance they weren't going home.
They chose their asses over the children.
Didn’t you hear? He had magical powers to lock and unlock doors as he went.
One bullet from a handgun could've taken this guy out. If one of the teachers in that room had had one this story would not be dominating the news cycle.
Apparently, simply closing a locking door would've gone a long way to obviating this news cycle.
Imagine being this dumb.
Pretty sad performance by the local fuzzaroonies. They pin a badge on somebody's brother in law, who parades around with a gun looking tough. But when the SHTF, the cops "set up a perimeter" so the shooter has plenty of time to kill.
Sick.
Possibly they knew that if they acted without direct orders from "above" the media and DOJ would vilify them and they would spend the remainder of their lives in prison? If they had stormed the school and saved 20 kids but eight were killed, the media would now be asking why they didn't wait for more information and permission from their superiors. And the questions would be asked that if they had waited, "would those poor eight children still be alive?" It's your classic "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation.
Personally, I believe they were all chickenshit and were just hoping to be able to stretch it out until the end of their shift, but that's just me. It could also be that they spend so much time in "Diversity" training, they do not have time for law enforcement training which would help them in such a situation.
I would have done as the one mother did and gone in to rescue my child. Kudos to her for doing what she needed to do to rescue her children.
True
I'm getting pretty sick of this argument from people.
1) It has been SOP since Columbine that police do not sit and wait during an active shooter situation. This has been widely publicized for DECADES.
2) So fucking what. You are going to get second guessed and criticized NO MATTER WHAT. Get your ass in there and stop the active shooter. That's your job. You get to speed around town, ignoring red lights, getting free meals at the local Chick-Fil-a. In return, the people expect you to rush into danger on their behalf.
If police officers are so concerned about what the 5 o'clock news says about them rather than DOING WHAT IS RIGHT, then they need to put away the badge. Because there is no logic other than "Idiots might criticize me" where it makes sense for the police to wait while an active shooter is in a building.
1) It has been SOP since Columbine that police do not sit and wait during an active shooter situation. This has been widely publicized for DECADES.
Not exactly specific to this case but to the policy, to what end? Do they pull a Keanu Reeves from speed and shoot the hostage as long as it kills the bad guy? If he's barricaded himself in a room and isn't shooting anyone (again not saying that was the case here), are they supposed to start smashing in the door giving him official notice that it's time to start shooting hostages?
Again, not speaking to this specific case, more querying about the general libertarian notion of using your brain at all times rather than falling back on policy. I've sat through multiple security training sessions about active shooters. Aside from the obvious no brainers, they tend to push what I've generally been going with in this, use your brain, do your best, *all* the second-guessing after the fact is bullshit (I don't exactly agree with this policy either).
School shootings aren't hostage situations. That's why they go in now.
School shootings aren't hostage situations.
The story here goes/went/gets assumed, from both sides, that he barricaded himself in a room with people that he wasn't killing. That some or all of the 19th kids weren't already corpses he left in the hallway and he didn't barricade himself into an empty room and wait for people (cops, parents, whatever) to walk into a chokepoint.
There are plenty of mass shootings where it ends with police cornering the guy so that he can't shoot anyone else and then take 15-20 min. (or longer) to talk him out, incapacitate him, or send in a robot with an explosive taped to the front. I agree with sending cops at an active shooter. I also agree that there's no rational point to throwing waves of bodies (cops, parents, or other) at someone who's barricaded himself in a hole.
If you have a person that says "Stop don't come any further or I kill these kids" then you have a hostage situation.
Until then it is an active shooter.
This isn't actually too complicated. In Colorado, this happened:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-school-shooting-was-horrific/
The police did the best they could. As soon as they lost contact with this fucker, they stopped treating it as a hostage situation and tried to stop him. A young girl lost her life. But probably several others were saved.
Right, again I wasn't at the scene and aren't advocating policy one way or the other, but I could see how a school shooting could change into something like the Dallas shooter where sending in more people/cops just raises the body count and, 5 hours and one exploding robot later, the suspect gets neutralized.
This is where I’m at. People who’s job it is to protect and serve acted like military commanders trying to figure out how to conquer a fort on a hill with limited casualties. That’s not their job. A madman was killing children. Drive a fucking cop car into the entrance while everyone follows behind guns drawn. Drive vans up to the windows and break them out and storm them. I’m not sure what would work, I wasn’t there, but I guarantee it would take me closer to 1 minute than 1 hour to figure it out. Standing around while children are murdered? I’d probably commit suicide after the fact if I did nothing.
Sometimes, even in the military, you have to take the damn hill, and don't have time to plan it out to avoid casualties. When time is on the line, sometimes brute force, maximum aggressiveness is the SOP. And for the same reason, the casulaties you take probably saves more casualties later.
Some times it is better to be decisive than right.
Let's say you pulled the pin, and went in guns blazing. And you were crucified by the media because some kids died. You could wake up every morning knowing that some more didn't. Isn't that worth it?
I hope I could. Like I said sometimes you have to take casualties now, to avoid more casualties later. Like I said, in the military we don't always stop to plan. Sometimes (most of the time) you don't have time to plan. You rely on your training. Something tells me these cops probably hadn't trained enough to deal with this. Which is inexcusable. You train like you fight so you can fight like you train. So you don't have to plan when seconds count. That's the problem with a lot of police forces. They don't spend any time training. To little time on the range, to little time going over scenarios. Doing run throughs, or even conducting sand table exercises. It's simply inexcusable that they waited over an hour for SWAT to arrive. That they withdrew from the school after receiving fire. It's like they didn't treat it like a mass shooting and were running the hostage negotiations playbook. It seems they didn't even properly assess the situation.
Again, agreed that better to be decisive than right, but before the dust kicks up the options aren't just decisive or right and, after the decisions are made, actions should be analyzed to avoid making wrong decisions going forward.
I've said and agree that 40 min. is inexcusable and I'm still convinced that simply allowing random civilians to flood the scene of an active shooter is/would be a wrong decision.
Their job is NOT to protect the public at large. They serve only their masters, the real owners of America. Their job is to steal whatever you have under Civil asset forfeiture, charge you with phony crimes and steal money out of your wallet in the form of fines , duties and levies.
They do not exist to protect you. Even the courts have stated that fact.
You do realize the parents charging the barricades made the police devote resources to keeping them under control so they wouldn't get shot over prioritizing defusing the situation. No matter what morons like you say nobody is choosing life in prison over being fired no matter what you demand from far away, in fact you'd be the first to condemn the police for following your advice if anything went wrong.
Parents wouldn't be charging the barricades if police were doing something.
If police aren’t willing to charge a gunman killing children what is their purpose?
Yes. The entire department should be fired and blacklisted for extreme cowardice and dereliction of duty. Absolutely unbelievable response.
To collect paychecks until they reach retirement age.
Next time you come upon the scene of a mass shooting, shoot the police first. Yes, you should temporarily ally yourself with the original shooter(s), because experience shows that to be the pragmatic choice. If you're caught later, you can always just say you were in a conspiracy with the original shooter, and that together you were mostly peaceful, and you'll be let off with possibly just a small fine.
And given access to a multi-million dollar mansion - - - - - - - -
Double ???
What is the logic here? You seem to be referring to grifting BLM leaders, except that makes no logical sense because none of them have shot or otherwise killed anyone.
Kill yourself
Only their followers.
???
Which is why our prisons are just full of white people who misgendered people while the violent blacks are allowed to roam free.
The FOX News universe sounds like a shithole.
Welcome to Chicago.
Blacks are overrepresented in violent crime statistics and therefore more commonly encountered in prison populations.
Need a copekin? Its what I call a napkin for libshit tears 😀 lets see if this is on urban dictionary already, otherwise i have some work to do.
It isnt. Nice. I could really make a meaningful contribution to society.
If anyone would recognize a shithole it’s you tony, you miserable little bitch.
It's understandable that the police would not want to contend with the mayhem of parents storming the school themselves.
Is it, though? Who made police the arbiters of justice? Those powers are derived from the people, and I'm sure everyone is wondering why it makes more sense for armed men to stand around doing nothing when there's a group of possibly-armed civilians ready to go in and resolve the situation.
Justice is derived from the population, and it's a power we have granted the government to administer as long as the government remains a trustworthy custodian. If the government fails in its responsibilities, it's the duty of the people to administer justice. People it would have been less organized if a posse of armed parents stormed into the school, but it would have gotten the job done much quicker. Likewise if a group of armed teachers had engaged the shooter while kids escaped, it wouldn't have been as professional, but it would have been more effective.
So naturally, what we don't need is an even greater concentration of power in limited hands. We need to disperse back into the population so they can act when danger is imminent.
Arguably, police aided and abetted the killer by preventing parents from exercising legal defense of another. But of course he courts have continually expanded police arbitrary powers, so they probably do have some precedent-derived legal authority to tell you to stand by and watch your child get murdered placidly or else.
So in addition to the one heavily armed kid shooting up a school, you want a crazed mob to do it too.
Better than letting him do whatever he wants for an hour with no threat to him while he did it. God, you are an idiot if you think you actually made anything close to a point with this.
How was he “heavily armed” again?
I go by how many children he was able to turn into pulp in an hour.
No Tony, just the ability of parents to protect their children when the police decide it’s too dangerous to engage lest one of the Thin Blue Line Heroes be possibly hurt or killed doing a job they swore to do.
Heaven knows if one of the blue line gets a hang nail or a bruise,then all hell breaks lose.
I think when we let children purchase hundreds of rounds and semi-automatic weapons, the options for everyone are pretty chaotic and limited.
I’m not giving up my right to defend myself, my family, my neighbors, my community, my state, and my country because you feel like no one should be armed.
At some point you have to accept the fact that there are monsters among us who will use any means necessary to hurt and kill the innocent. Disarming sane, sober, moral people from protecting themselves and others is a non starter solution.
The term is literally "arms race." It's not even a metaphor.
Sure, you can defend yourself. Everyone can defend themselves with the maximum allowable firepower they can acquire in their society. Should I be able to defend myself with a personal army? A tactical nuke? What if I want one?
The point is to think about things more critically than an infant does.
A tactical nuke?
Wtf Tony, nobody is arguing for an arms race here. I simply stated I wanted to CONTINUE to be able to defend myself and society, with currently available and standard arms, and that that right shouldn’t be infringed upon based on the actions of an evil actor.
The citizenry was willing to go into a situation that the State had deemed in-actionable. If the State cannot be trusted to protect us, then the citizenry should be able to take up arms in its place. It’s a simple argument.
" . . . federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs . . . "
On what authority?
Local school, local bad guy, local cops (sort of).
"why these questionable decisions were made."
We know why they were made.
The cop's number 1 priority is that all the cops make it home safe at the end of the day.
And make it to retirement.
I have relative who was in law enforcement at the time of Columbine.
Within three weeks, the Sheriff had every person on the force go through every school in the county to become familiar with the layouts. The instructions were "as soon as you get there, go in and get the bad guy. Don't wait for backup, don't wait for SWAT, go get him".
I think there's a current, weirdly administrative mentality for towns like Uvalde, where the thinking is "We're paying for this SWAT team, we might as well use it." It advises top-down inaction so that they can justify the usage of their specialists instead of actually dealing with the issue.
As expected, Reason is willfully clueless about police protocols.
Not clueless about them. Just dismissive of them.
And based on the outcome of this particular incident (and the prior on in FL), right to be dismissive of protocols that put police over the very people they are supposed to be protecting.
"right to be dismissive of protocols that put police over the very people they are supposed to be protecting."
That's the problem, officially, they aren't supposed to be protecting anyone.
We know the protocols, we just don't care. Police protocols are institutional cowardice, and it gets innocent people killed and their rights taken away. This is hardly the only example. Therefore, police protocols are not a valid defense for bad police conduct.
How dare Reason not fall into lockstep with force-initiating fascism? Credere, Obbedire, Combatere is what put Mussolini, Wallace and Abbott in charge of government school policies and security--oh... and the votes that gave them that power.
You were so close Hank. Then your psychosis kicked in.
Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.
A Latina mother risked her life to save her 2 children. Selfless, sacrificial, all for life. Meanwhile Leftist White Prog trash characterize children as worthy of being aborted because they are selfish, inconvenienced, all by a "clump of cells". The contrast could not be more stark.
From Joe Biden's mouth:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-reacts-leaked-draft-supreme-court-opinion-abortion/story?id=84467397
"The idea that we're going to make a judgment that is going to say that no one can make the judgment to choose to abort a child, based on a decision by the Supreme Court, I think goes way overboard," he said.
“Leftists are living contradictions. Leftists are full of unfulfilled ambitions. Leftists love to complain. Leftists wax wand wane. Leftists hate love to hear themselves talk, but hate to explain. Leftists love to be another man’s judge and jury. Leftists love to procrastinate until it’s time to worry. Leftists love to be late. Leftists hate to hurry. I’ve seen what’s around the corner, I’ve seen what on the horizon, and I promise you, leftists won’t have anything to celebrate.”
This was paraphrased from the Boondocks. Specifically MLK’s 2004 speech. I thought it applicable to leftists in general.
???
Progressives, and others who are pro-choice, tend to love and protect their children just like any other parents.
They see that clump of cells as being different from a fully-developed child. You may not agree, likely because of your religious beliefs, but what do you hope to gain by demonizing those who see things differently than you do?
Look at it lie
It’s what she does.
"They see that clump of cells as being different from a fully-developed child."
Well currently they are arguing for nothing less than the ability to have unrestricted abortion. That's right, a baby that is fully formed without going out the magic birth canal = "clump of cells that I can delete". They turned down a more reasonable bill for a no restrictions ideology.
"They see that clump of cells as being different from a fully-developed child. "
And yet Biden literally called it aborting "a child". So maybe, you know, stop lying.
You’d have a point if pro-abortionist didn’t call it a clump of cells all the way up to post birth, if that’s what the mother chooses.
the other contrast that got appropriately panned on twitter was Obama trying for a "but what about George Floyd?" tweet.
There were 21 poor sympathetic victims and he had to reach for maybe the most unsympathetic victim imaginable because racism.
Really inconvenient for him all those kids getting killed ruined his race guilt trip.
I do declare, a poorly worded tweet. My heavens, whatever will we do about such affronts to decorum!
It's to put more AR-15s in schools, isn't it?
Yeah, lots of people advocating AR15s in schools. I appreciate you being an obvious joke.
Hey, what do you think about the shoulder thing that goes up? I’m about to add the chainsaw thingy modification, any recommendations for what brand?
I just picked up a plasma cannon and an RPG.
Fucking space demons are everywhere.
"It's to put more AR-15s in schools, isn't it?"
A Glock 17 would do just fine.
To do what? Indicate to the shooter who to blast away first?
It’s not Rock, Paper, Scissors Tony. There are a plenty of examples on line of people with AR15’s and AK47’s being stopped with small arms. It happens all the time, it comes down to skill and training. I doubt Uvalde’s mass shooter version of Wednesday was more trained than police and swat.
A gun doesn’t automatically turn you into Rambo. Anybody who’s picked up a gun and had training can attest to that. Proficiency with a firearm is an acquired skill. There’s a difference in difficulty in shooting an innocent 4th grader compared to a highly trained person who SHOOTS BACK. It’s a phenomenon called FIBSA, you should look it up.
Fuck the pigs
I guess like everything else in 21st century America, "hero" has a new definition.
"...Any public official whose actions detracted from the urgent need to save the lives of all those kids should be held fully accountable..."
In an ideal world...
And this is how you know guns are a very effective means of home defense: not even cops will assault a structure with an armed gunman, even with superior firepower and manpower.
Any parents whose children died as a result of this outrage should arrest the cops who did it for murder.
So where are the "white supremacist" memes? A Lolita Lebrón fan decides to imitate the Kleptocracy and its goons, and alluva sudden comprehension dawns that other actors, not simply Aryan racial collectivists, have been inspired to copycat violence after watching how manly Kleptocracy cops with immunity from justice murder people for no reason. But the Bill of Rights is what Beto will blame, bank on it.
"Because of my insane, pointless hobby, all American children should be forced to do active shooter drills in schools, which won't even help them when two AR-15s are turning them into pulp.
"Also, don't you fucking dare make me wear a mask during an airborne pandemic. Rules are for children, or as I like to call them, future 2nd amendment heroes."
*1 Tony
What does this mean?
Joe is trying to out stupid Tony on gun control.
Sorry Joe, Tony has a good 10-20 years on you being as pig ignorant and fucking retarded as possible about every aspect of this conversation.
And yet you avoid showing us how Tony and I are wrong and resort to personal insults. That's a reflection on your intelligence and the weakness of your position, not his or mine.
Nope, we just learned you dont learn and dont process new information. We therefore, rightfully, insult you because other modes of communication are too time consuming.
Why would I waste my time refuting obvious bullshit. You have never demonstrated a reason why it would be worth it.
You are an authoritarian and a racist and that’s all the response you deserve.
It means that the Statist Totalitarianist likes a comment that supports Statist Totalitarianism.
Dudes, this happened in Texas, not San Francisco. This is the showcase for the red response to gun control, strategy and laws via Gov Abbott and a completely red state legislature. Could the law response be improved on - let's hope so! But the answers are not easy and so far the red response looks like a failure. Hey, a really tough problem and the result in a school in a blue state might be as bad or even worse, but the heart of this problem is a kid legally bought a military weapon designed to kill humans and over 300 rounds and went and shot up a school. Hey maybe the door was unlocked - maybe he shot the lock off. Are we gonna put the kids in a bank vault? If the cops there attacked immediately maybe they would have cut down on kid fatalities, but they didn't know that and might have rightly feared turning a classroom into a battle field. If we learn they knew many had already been shot, then that's not an excuse anymore.
Two days later and this is the email you get? I know it’s a denotrespond email and you don’t have a choice to post it, but if you’re allowed to send feedback up through your handlers, let them know you need some paragraph breaks.
Isn't it convenient that these hounds seem to be released at all the same time?
Wake up overt, you're on the internet and the "hounds" aren't after you.
I don't get emails from handlers R Mac. What do they send you?
Fuck off, slaver.
you obviously know nothing about firearms. nothing. the shooter did not buy a military weapon. he did not have a military weapon. you should get your facts straight. no branch of the military uses an ar15. none.
I'm all for firing or disparaging cops for any reason real or imagined, but it seems that the core issue is not the police response, but the fact that people are legally allowed to buy weapons that can cause mass death in seconds.
Weapons of mass death that are easier to legally acquire than Sudafed. What the fuck do you expect is going to happen in a country with scant reliable access to mental healthcare?
You're faulting people for not perfectly guarding against that situation? Is that the line coming down from the NRA? Is that the distraction they're proposing?
I challenge you to a duel with machetes and hatchets. Bring your friends and family.
Commentariat, I put the over/under at 9.
I've been pretty good with a katana lately, at least on Elden Ring, but that's because I'm a basic bitch.
What's your proposal? Somewhat interested to hear what the rumblings are from the 80 IQ libs on this one (and you are usually well tuned into that).
Full confiscation? Govt gun buybacks? I noticed your chums in congress who control the house and senate, and WH, haven't put forward any solutions. Its almost like they are totes cool with guns and will settle for a "republicans bad" news cycle.
(and trust me, that's all you will be getting out of it)
My proposal as if I were dictator? Oh please, get me started.
No, pinhead. The problem is that idiots who think along the same lines as you keep trying to disarm the public, and that creates opportunities for unhinged perps to do as much damage as possible. There's never been a mass shooting at a gun show.
There was a mass shooting at a school in Israel once in the 1970s. There have been two attempts since then. Can you guess why those attempts failed?
You're faulting people for not perfectly guarding against that situation?
No, asshole: they're being faulted not just for their incompetence and cowardice, but for the fact that they violently prevented anyone else from stepping up and dealing with the perp.
Go fuck yourself sideways with a full-grown saguaro, you worthless scumbag.
-jcr
Israel has highly restrictive gun laws. You can have one gun, but you're licensed and the gun is tracked. You can't sell it without state permission. You're stale, absurd talking points exist just to get us through to the next mass slaughter of children, where you'll deploy them again.
What's your fucking solution? Because turning schools into war zones is fucking psychotic.
Awww, I’ve missed your special bleating Tonster.
Also: fuck off, slaver.
I strongly encourage our policy makers to push for strong gun control leading up to the midterms.
Tony, I don't remember you being so upset about unstable people having access to cars after Waukesha.
Then you don't know me very well. I think cars should be illegal too.
No, but tony did piss his pants over “violent bigots” because of a stand up comedian. He is pathetic.
Why did they refuse to take action?
1) because they are obviously not warriors, no matter how big they act.
2) because they are yella
3) (IMO, most importantly) because there will be no real consequences one way or the other.
For people wanting a source for the cops going in and getting their own kids
https://www.mediaite.com/news/watch-texas-police-spox-on-live-tv-confirmed-cops-went-in-for-their-own-kids-during-uvalde-shooting/
Part of the problem with the internet is that people post anything- especially media sites.
Look, the Mediaite site has hearsay. Some reporter quoting a PR spokes hole who "seems to confirm" shit. On the other hand we have the WSJ who literally interviewed the cop who went in to help save several kids, shredding his arms in the process.
Maybe WSJ is wrong or there were other police involved. But the mediaite site is sensationalist pablum. Don't hang your hat on it.
And, even if cops didn't go in to rescue their own kids, there's still plenty of prosecutorial action to be had, and the real problem is that we likely won't see any of it.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1529851537790476288
Hey look the ghouls are here to stand on the bodies of children in order to score political points.
Go away undead. Show a little fucking decency.
That would require Joe and Tony to have a modicum of morality that wasn’t centered on “Obey us as your lords and masters”.
Yeah, no one talking about politics or placing blame here except Democrats Overt. Your piousness is particularly flashy!
Well some Australian wussy out of the corona concentration camp shouldn’t expect an American to apologize for being the best country on Earth you know? Libroaches are already overdoing it again.
Unfortunately Ted Cruz wasn’t able to say what I can say here, apparently: that even with massacres and accidents the utility of guns is invaluable. Its funny, because its that simple.
Why are guns so valuable and important? Fascists like you. Thats why.
Imagine some idiot from Australia asking us why we haven’t banned all cars despite the 10s of thousands who die annually from drunk driving.
"Former President Donald Trump is scheduled to speak at the National Rifle Association's Annual Leadership Forum on Friday. But audience members at the group's annual meeting, being held this year in Houston, won't be able to carry guns during his address..."
WTF?
Secret Service rules. Not up to Trump.
You're either an idiot for not knowing that, or a mendacious gun grabber scumbag trying to take a cheap shot. Which is it?
-jcr
Well, isn't that convenient.
Guess it's the first choice. Thanks for playing, asshole.
-jcr
It can be both!
You’re so stupid. All you do is embarrass yourself here, but you keep coming back for more.
But unlike the unprotected kids in schools, there will be plenty of guns protecting Mr. Trump (and e.g. all of Hollywood during the Oscars). You've just made the case for kids not being able to bring guns to the 'event' provided there are plenty of guns present to protect them.
Problem? What problem?
https://twitter.com/i/status/1529910935225258001
You do realize you linked to a video of a minor buying a single-shot bolt action .22 lr, right?
You do realize that Joe Friday is a fucking idiot right?
You mean +1 mad?
One more lie from Joe Asshole
Yes
OK, got a link to a mass shooting performed with a single-shot bolt action .22? Because you're doing a great job convincing us all that you, in fact, don't know what 'the problem' is or what to do about it.
mad, nuts shooting up schools with military weapons is not the beginning and end of our gun problems as you surely must know. The video showed how easy it is for a kid who can't buy a lottery ticket or beer can buy a gun. The type of gun is not the story.
Get it now, or do you need more help?
Im sorry people here are relatively informed and intelligent and therefore do not spontaneously echo your outrage about essential rights, fascist.
Oh and im sure that video is legit a totally reliable source and nothing was staged or otherwise altered or arranged to produce outrage porn for demented libshit grandpas on twitter 😀 lmao you are so lost
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other
Stuff it up your ass.
The type of gun is not the story.
Get it now, or do you need more help?
Yeah, the problem you previously identified (high velocity rounds) isn't the problem. The gun isn't the problem. I don't need more help, the fact that you don't understand what the problem is is pretty clear, but I'm sure you'll do your best to make more so.
Hey hey now Joe’s shot a shotgun before!
“Just the sound of a pumping shotgun will have the perp jumping out the window”- Joe Friday paraphrased. Joe has studied a many 80’s action movie Mad.Casual, btfo.
Joe asshole lies again.
Do not engage lying Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other
Nice content please checkout my website https://Pourit.in
no
get lost
Cowardice is bad enough, but violently preventing others from saving innocent people is beyond the pale. That department must be disbanded.
-jcr
In this case, the facts don't seem to support it. I could understand something like the Dallas shooter where the guy has holed up in the corner of a concrete parking garage and even sending in more cops is just adding to the body count. This doesn't appear to have been entirely similar.
The cop were scared. They like pushing around motorist..... unarmed people. They are a disgrace every dam one should be fired then arrested.
What is sickening is that this could have been stopped. The shooter was firing rounds for 12 minutes outside the school. Police should have been there in 2 minutes, so how could they not have stopped him in the next 10 minutes? When he entered the school, to murder people, they just sat there and did nothing.
People will scream about gun control, but the people who were supposed to have the guns and be able to use them were there. That it took the Border Patrol to stop this is unconscionable. How can we trust the police to do what they are charged to do if they don't do it?
Hey, this is Texas policy, in place by a thoroughly Republican government and no BLM, Nancy Pelosi, or the Squad to blame it on. Unless we put our kids in a bank vault and have Jack Reacher on perpetual patrol, I think the answer to the problem is don't let 18 year olds or anyone walk up and buy an AR-15 and 300 rounds or very bad things may happen.
Maaaan i just made a donation to the NRA and the GOA and will have tons of fun with my little AR on the range with the family soon. Life’s great, brother. 😀
I've always heard that life wasn't as valuable to you types.
yeah that'll do it!
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
dislodge the shooter—who was actively murdering the kids inside the room with him— I see no evidence cops were standing around while anyone was being murdered. Just the opposite in fact. It seems like the murders took place in minutes; two cops tried to go in but were shot. Shots stopped - they evacuated (saved the lives of the other kids) and waited for experts with tactical gear to show up. Why no gun was present at the school and the doors not being locked is a biggie, but idiots posting about this clearly watch too many cops and robbers shows.
All true except the part about "- they evacuated".
That is the issue. They never evacuated the civilians. They only evacuated the cops.
Like Afghanistan, they ran away and left the whole reason for being there at all at the mercy of the enemy.
Interesting how news relating to the Buffalo shooting concentrated almost solely on the shooter's motives and racist attitude, But the Uvalde shooting is all on the failure of law enforcement, and the guns.
Sovereign Immunity and Supreme Court Rulings that POLICE HAVE NO DUTY TO PROTECT are at the root of the problem. Take away BOTH and POLICE would have to react or face civil and criminal prosecution.
We pay them, they say their job is dangerous but when danger appears they do nothing. I have even seen Police decide NOT to enter areas where gunshots were reported until all is quiet. They investigate later in safety rather than face any risk.
Many, if not most LEOs are control freaks, addicted to power or both. When a civilian starts talking sense. They take it as a challenge and clamp down, often illegally. Kudos to the Mom for disregarding their lethargic response and getting her kids. The first cops in should have maintained a presence inside. this would have kept the murderer's attention off of the kids. they could have also radioed those entering much, much, later the murderer's position. thus reducing the risk to kids and reinforcements.
Because of this, my opinion of cops has reached an all time low. And it was very, very low.
Cops are doing what politicians hire them to do. They respond to supply and demand for money. Politicians respond to supply of leveraged, law-changing libertarian spoiler votes. If you want less violence and murder, voting libertarian is the most effective way to turn effort into results that change government policies. See "Getting Their Attention With Spoiler Votes"
But Jo Jorgensen told me she doesn’t want to be the party of angry white men. Huh, maybe i just need to change my personal identification.
The Border Patrol arrived 12:45 and went in immediately to engage the shooter, following training for "active shooter" as defined by FBI.
Reminds me of Bristol TN rampage shooting Lakeem Scott 2016
Bristol TN PD Chief Blaine Wade said explaining the training for an active shooter situation:
"That's the first thing we do, we try to find the shooter and to engage them, and ultimately that causes them to quit the mission that they're on specifically and react to our police officers."
Uvalde cops need retraining.
That situation ended with with one civilian dead, another wounded, a cop wounded and the perp wounded and in custody.
Cops are stupid dumb animals to be used to enforce NWO policies. Their job is not to protect the citizenry but to protect their pensions and vacation pay.
This what you people/taxpayers are paying for. And if you fail to worship your local blue team, you're in big trouble.
So shut your mouths peasant and get down on your knees before your masters. Don't do anything that will rile them, you know like attempts to defend yourselves from thugs and the like. That's their job...or maybe it isn't.
Cops do not stop or prevent crime. They exist only to clean up after and take notes.
However, it is my hope the parents of these victims sue the city and the police department for every penny they've got. I hope those worthless POS cops are fired ...but I doubt it. In fact they will probably get promoted for their great work.
As for the taxpaying citizens.....GFY!
Your kid is inside with a psycho who is murdering people and the only thing between you and your kid is a fat, donut eating, bluebellied, douchnozzle on a power trip with a Tazer.
What is your duty?
Does your duty change just because some cop starts yelling orders or does your duty transcend the policing authority of the state?
The purpose of government is to defend our rights so we can defend ourselves. Clearly in this case, government failed at its most basic task.
It failed not by failing to protect the kids, but by using their weapons to deny the parents their right to defend their kids.
Can you imagine if an air martial had stopped the passengers of Flight 93 from rushing the cockpit?
I see no difference.
There is a difference. Flight 93 was hijacked by religious fanatics. An analogous situation would be for federal agents to hijack government planes to fly them into buildings (there were no Air Marshals before 2001).
By actively prohibiting parents from organizing and dealing with the issue in a timely manner, the police are complicit and should be held accountable as if they were the getaway driver at a bank robbery where people are murdered.
Police have no duty to protect anyone. These cops cannot use the excuse that they were protecting parents. Protection is not their duty.
Police are employed to enforce the law. They refused to allow the enforcement of the law and were willing to assault parents to prevent the enforcement of the law until they themselves (the police) were safe.
The police are complicit in this.
"The Air Marshals program began in 1961, when President John F. Kennedy signed an amendment to the Federal Aviation Act of 1958; an amendment that was designed to enhance penalties for anyone interfering with airline crewmembers and to introduce the use of armed guards on flights."
Air Marshals were a response to hijackings to Coobah.
In other news, millions of gun owners did not shoot up a school today, never have and never will.
Have you checked the news from Ukraine lately? Russians with weapons are even now shooting up schools, hospitals and whatnot. Europeans have for centuries been routinely shot by the thousands, on their knees, from behind. This only changed somewhat when Second Amendment Americans introduced nuclear weapons and did away with wars politicians can safely order waged.
But we are the ones who must be punished.
When the 1990 Gun Free Gun Zone Act became law, felonizing possession of firearms within a thousand feet of a school, I realized my home is within 450 feet of the local elementary school.
A search for "private school shootings" turns up zero, mebbe 1 as the number of victims in non-government school shootings. Back when adding coercion was the panacea, Biden noticed that unlabeled black-market cocaine killed one person per month per state in much the way government-denatured alcohol did during prohibition. In two centuries shootings at government schools have caused some 1000 casualties, 400 of them fatalities. How many more must die until drug laws and government schools are abolished?
How many more must die until drug laws and government schools are abolished?
All of them unless we are willing to deal with government employees the same way thousands of Europeans have been treated for centuries.
Government schools have to teach children that the initiation of deadly force is good, wholesome, socially beneficent. Nowadays children go to school and are taught that with just a few more multiple murders, that awful Bill of Rights can perhaps be shortened. What better incentive could get kids to kill to destroy rights?
So its getting to where the government with guns is something not to fear if you are a psychopath murdering children. This good for the anti gun propaganda movement. Take guns away from everyone.
Although it would be as daunting trying to eliminate 400million guns as it would be to deport 20-30 million illegals. Guns would be needed to either one.
A conundrum.
actually deporting the illegals would not require any guns. you simply prevent any illegal from working at any legit business. they'll self deport. that and seal the border tight.
Same with gun ownership.
If you want to eat or have water, you will give up your guns and your neighbor's too.
What's the price for baby formula today and who do you have to get it from?
Luckily it's not that lots of Americans are buying guns, it's that the same retarded fucknuts are buying lots and lots of guns.
I'm sure we could track them if we put some effort into it.
Not my experience.
I am seeing WAY more new gun owners than ever before, most notably women.
Then there will be more women with their brains splattered on walls for freedom.
last time i checked the constitution doesn't restrict the number of guns one person can own. i same the more the better. that way if someone breaks into my house i have choice of firearms to dispatch the dirtbag with.
I’m not giving up my right to self-defense just because the government can’t do schooling right.
he's not the alleged killer, he IS the killer
Sure let everyone run in and save the kids. When I read this one I recalled one of my favorite movie lines:
FBI Agent Johnson:
Figure we take out the terrorists. Lose twenty, twenty-five percent of the hostages/parents who run into the building.
FBI Special Agent Johnson:
I can live with that.
Cops have no duty to protect anyone. This is established law.
They can live with the murder of kids. Cops clean up the mess. That's what they do.
Parents have a duty to protect their kids. This is established law.
Right now, some parents are struggling to live with the fact that instead of fighting to protect their kids, they obeyed the orders of police because they (the parents) were too afraid of the police to stop the murder of children.
It isn't going to matter that they may have died or that the killer might have already murdered all the children.
I don't know how you live with that.
Bristol TN rampage shooting 2016
"That's the first thing we do, we try to find the shooter and to engage them, and ultimately that causes them to quit the mission that they're on specifically and react to our police officers" Bristol TN PD Chief Blaine Wade said explaining the training for an active shooter situation.
The First_First Amendment is Officer Safety, thanks to Terry v. Ohio and police policies if any scratch or bruise can be prevented then no expense will be spared and no right will come before Officer Safety. You will get yanked out of your car for having a light out, in the name of officer safety. You will be stopped from saving your children from murder, in the name of Officer Safety.
More cops shoot themselves than get shot.
Onondaga County (New York) Sheriff’s deputy Isaac Eames stole $500K before he killed himself, his dog and wounded his wife... the wife is charged with being invoked in the thefts.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/05/sheriffs-deputy-isaac-eames-stole-500k-before-murder-suicide-wounded-wife-charged-with-thefts.html
Killed his son too.
Thank God the fetuses in Texas are safe!
This reminds me of a joke Sarah Silverman used to tell about getting pulled over by the California Highway Patrol. The officer: "Do you know why I'm standing here?" Sarah: "Because you got all C's in high school?"