Alien Civilizations Either Self-Destruct or Transcend to 'Homeostatic Awakening,' Argues New Study
And one or the other is likely our fate too.

"We have no material, we have detected no emanations, within the UAP [unidentified aerial phenomena] task force that would suggest it is anything non-terrestrial in origin," testified Scott Bray, deputy director of naval intelligence. Bray made this claim last week during the first congressional hearing on the military's information about unidentified flying objects (UFOs) in 50 years. A skimpy June 2021 report to Congress noted that American military pilots had observed more than 140 cases of UAPs since 2004.
In a new article in Proceedings of the Royal Society, astrobiologists Michael Wong (Carnegie Institution for Science) and Stuart Bartlett (California Institute of Technology) offer an explanation for the lack of evidence that UAPs are extraterrestrial exploration vehicles: ETs haven't shown up either because they burn out or transcend to quiescent homeostasis.
The two researchers are addressing the Fermi paradox. "Where are they?" famously asked Italian physicist Enrico Fermi over lunch in the 1950s. By "they," he meant space aliens. Fermi figured that if the galaxy contained space-faring civilizations, it would only take them a few tens of millions of years to populate it. Thus, the lack of close encounters of a third kind is a puzzle.
Wong and Bartlett base their speculations about the possible trajectory of exo-civilizations on the theory of superlinear scaling that characterizes the development of cities devised by University of Chicago complexity theorist Luis Bettencourt and his colleagues back in 2007. They found that as cities get bigger, there are increasing returns with increasing size. For example, per capita wealth, productivity, and innovation all rise faster than the urban population.
Wong and Bartlett argue that the growth and increasing interconnection of data networks result essentially in a global city that is now characterized by superlinearity. The upshot, according to Wong and Bartlett, is that "unbounded growth will occur, leading to infinite population (and hence infinite demand on resources) in a finite time. If such a 'singularity' is approached unchecked, the system will eventually exceed its energy supply and collapse (or significantly regress)."
Civilizations can at least temporarily forestall collapse through innovation resets that shift resource use and population trajectories. Catastrophic burnout occurs when the capacity for innovation is overwhelmed as the time between the need for new resets grows ever shorter as superlinear growth continues.
On the other hand, Wong and Bartlett suggest that some exo-civilizations might become aware of the unsustainability of their superlinear trajectory. In order to avoid impending collapse, such alien civilizations would engage in "homeostatic awakenings" in which they choose to transcend the pursuit of unbounded growth. Thus, the Fermi paradox is resolved: No alien visitors to Earth have been detected because they either destroy themselves or they choose to stay quietly at home.
Wong and Bartlett conclude with this admonition: "A deeper theoretical understanding of the dynamics that determine the value of β [superlinearity] may reveal suggestions for how we can enact a fundamental change to our 'way of life' that helps us consciously avoid self-induced collapse."
It turns out that their analysis is not just a solution to the Fermi paradox, but a gussied-up Malthusian parable they think is applicable to us Earthlings.
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....however, if you find a book entitled "...To Serve Humans" be careful.
it was the three-eyed bartender all along.
The Twilight Zone had a lot of prescient episodes. A self driving car killed its owner. A daughter rebelled against the humanoid robot perfect servants in the house. One gave the mother a great neck massage. Turns out the daughter was a robot too. A stranded prisoner was offered a sex robot. Idiot refused it. Machines are 100 times better than living beings.
Please tell me that Britain, and not the US, paid for this "study."
Alien fucking civilizations, for fucks sake.
The interdimensional vorbulator will be invented very-very soon! Once the interdimensional vorbulator is invented, all humans will be given only 2 choices:
A) Join the Galactic Confederation of advanced species, which exists for secretly protecting and advancing less-advanced species, using the interdimensional vorbulator... Which periodically malfunctions, or the pilots commit errors, which is when we see UFOs...
or...
B) Have your human consciousness interdimensionally vorbulated, and become an electromagnetic being which lives in the electromagnetic storms which constantly churn up the photosphere of our sun.
After that, radio emissions and other signs of intelligent life on Earth will all go quiet. That's the usual pattern.
The Galactic Confederation forbids intelligent beings from taking over anything beyond their home star, because new beings must be allowed to evolve, without much interference, beyond being protected from the worst of their own stupidities, such as bad haircuts and nuclear war. Otherwise, the dominant galactic culture would do the equivalent of swamping all planets with THEIR culture, and THEIR version of McDonald's fast food joints! So, no mass reproducing of humans ("The Trouble with Tribbles"-style) beyond our home star is allowed, in the name of preserving galactic cultural diversity. That's why no intelligent aliens have yet befestered the whole galaxy.
Emperor Xenu told me all about it, so here you go!
http://www.shakespeare-online......reamt.html
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
So yes, I think you are correct!
Did you know that Shakespeare was a VERY advanced anthro-robotic avatar sent to Earth by the Zorstmastrians, to advance and guide our culture? THAT is where the above deep insight comes from!
Also travel across the miles of space is a waste of time even for tourism.
quiescent homeostasis.
What about quiescent homeosexuality?
Heh. You said "homeo". Heh.
Wong and Bartlett argue that the growth and increasing interconnection of data networks result essentially in a global city that is now characterized by superlinearity.
Only if that network has the proper censorship protocols.
This is the sort of unscientific psycho-social trash put out by universities. If Einstein was right and Star Trek not, the speed of light can not be exceeded, taking the distances between habitable star systems, which is immense, and the costs and limitations of sending colony ships, star civilizations would not spread far or quickly.
Send a colony ship with a thousand colonists and wait two or three thousand years until they have a big enough economy and advanced enough to send another ship out, the spread would be tiny compared to the size of the galaxy, and the time spent would be hundreds of thousands of years.
That is, of course, unless you believe in Star Wars.
Just have to take all the fun out of it, don't you?
[and yes I am being sarcastic]
To be fair, the Fermi Paradox indeed assumes sub-luminal travel. If you look at the age and size of our universe, you are getting such very large numbers that even these tiny chances of small, slow ships, seeding stars with slow growing civilizations- even then, you are still seeing the galaxy fill up with life in a million years give or take.
This has led to the theory that there is some sort of Great Filter- some sort of event that prevents or ends life before it can get to other solar systems. In this study they are claiming the Great Filter is either transcendance or burning out. I find the more likely explanation to be that the time window hasn't been as old as we think- that the universe and the galaxy is only recently reaching the point where life is sustainable.
"We" (astrophysicists, rather) don't know what the hell 96% of the universe is.
Apparently, "dark energy" (aka a giant fucking hole in the math/theory) accounts for something like 73% of the universe's mass.
Combine this with observations that the universe is still expanding, or perhaps because of it, and the hard cap speed of light, and the Fermi paradox isn't so much a paradox but a begging question.
It would/will be really, really, really hard to transport complex organisms any significant distance intact, and that's not even considering the question of if the resources/energy involved to do it make sense.
It is indeed possible that the great filter is just physics. Indeed, that is kind of what the study above is saying. At a certain point, the effort required to grow (for example, to go to the solar system next door) is so high that your civilization cannot go there before collapsing or deciding to just live inside its solar system indefinitely, until its sun burns out, I suppose.
There are two forces at play that only look like "dark energy" or "dark matter" but they have no mass. First is the nothing outside the universe that literally tears it apart and is the prime driver of the universe expansion. Second is space or the vacuum of space that repels matter and actively pushes it away. It is the vacuum that prevents velocities beyond the speed of light because as velocity increases so does momentum and vacuum "recognizes" this as an increase in mass and suppresses it.
At least that's how it was explained to me by a remarkably bright and imaginative 11 yr old. She could be the next Einstein given the interest in such things at her age.
Plausible I guess.
It's been about a decade since I was into theoretical physics, so I'm not up to date on it.
From the Wikipedia: "Assuming that the lambda-CDM model of cosmology is correct,[4] the best current measurements indicate that dark energy contributes 68% of the total energy in the present-day observable universe. The mass–energy of dark matter and ordinary (baryonic) matter contributes 26% and 5%, respectively, and other components such as neutrinos and photons contribute a very small amount."
Point is, we don't really know what the hell is going on out there.
TangoDelta:
Check your physics texts: Dark matter is, indeed, supposed to have mass. In fact, dark matter was originally postulated to explain why galaxies act as if they have much more mass than is observed via the EM spectrum.
What Dark Matter can't do is interact through the EM, Weak, and Strong forces. Thus, we can't see it using the EM spectrum.
This is just a couple midwits who have completely useless lives just taking the pagan vs the monotheistic paradigm and saying it's one or the other for aliens.
Worst part is: they probably don't realize that's all they've done. Nothing more.
I was particularly taken with the idea that they ruled out the entirely plausible option of aliens being more like slime mold or other beings that simply don't get to the point where they really give a shit about what's beyond. Orcas are pretty smart but I'd wager it's not homeostatic awakening that's stopping them from going to the moon.
Put another way, how many species actually survive long enough to achieve space travel before their sun burns out or is swallowed by a black hole regardless of what they want to do?
Yep.
The most likely encounter with alien life will be something simple, like single called organisms or bacteria, that's been stuck on an asteroid for millions of years.
The physics we currently know make the alien encounters of our sci-fi fantasies extremely implausible.
Now, we certainly haven't figured out everything, or even everything we're capable of knowing, yet. There's not even a single accepted unified theory. So it's possible we may find loopholes or a way around what we know to be the current physical limitations.
But even right now, our best theories of "timely" intergalactic travel, wormholes and/or exceeding the speed of light, present gravitational demands on the human body that tend to be overlooked.
God I hate colony ship science fiction. It has two basic pessimistic assumptions that annoy me no end:
* Einstein was right forever and ever, and no physics ever will ever find a way to travel or communicate faster than the speed of light. For ever, or at least millions and billions of years, whichever comes first.
* Even if Einstein was right, he was also the smartest human ever, and no one will ever ever come up with improved colony ships, especially faster ones which will overtake the first generation.
It's as if society, technology, and science just freeze, go into stasis back on earth like they do on the colony ships. Nothing ever improves,. No one ever develops more efficient drives which can accelerate faster or longer.
Just for once, I'd like to read a science fiction story where a colony ship is woken up 50 years later by some hotshots out for a daytrip in their Cosmic Spyder 500 sports ship, or the Carnival Cruise Lines Princess Leia II, finding out their target colony planet now has a population of 100 million.
I get where you're coming from unpronounceable.
I have the same issue with medieval style fantasy novels. Seems like those societies have been stuck in the swords and catapults level of development for thousands of years with no technological advancement. At least in some of the stories.
In real life, the moment someone made a weapon, someone else was looking for a new defense. Make a new defense, a weapon to get around it would be soon behind. We're not talking the speed of ephemeral internet technology here, but still, your shit would see obsolescence in a generation.
One of the best lines form HHGTTG was the but about teasers. Bored rich kids who go to an uncontacted world, land in a farmer's field in front of someone nobody will believe, and walk around making bloop bloop noises for fun. Just because we can't fathom it doesn't mean someone else hasn't sorted superluminal travel so well an idiot kid in a sportscar spaceship can go on a galactic road trip.
Somewhat related, I saw an interesting rejoinder to the Japanese sword fanatics who treat katanas as the best sword ever; he said the fact that they hadn't changed in 1000 years meant they had never faced competition from new technologies, making them demonstrably the least developed, least proven swords ever, and arguably therefore the worst swords ever to survive past prototype stage. In comparison, Europeans swords changed considerably over 3-4000 years, in material, size, shape, and every other possible characteristic.
It was an interesting thesis.
I tend to believe that- though Japanese swords were solving a bit of a different problem. Namely the lack of useable steel in Japan. So they were a remarkable sword for getting the most out of a small amount of good steel. The craftsmanship was impeccable.
Not changing much isn't in and of itself proof that something is inferior. Sometimes you hit on a good design that remains competitive for a long time- Sharks, cats and alligators are all examples of evolutionary end points that have remained largely the same for millions of years merely because they were pretty damn good to begin with.
But overall I agree with this theory. Japanese swordsmen never found themselves up against a fully armored knight, precisely because of their steel shortages.
The lawyer has hit upon the Inquisition 2.0 and is collecting a $trillion in worthless rent seeking. 1.0 worked for 700 years as a business model. It ended when French patriots decapitated 10000 church officials. Time for the same remedy to this criminal gang.
I would add that there were laws/rules about swordmaking that basically froze katana development on purpose.
Bored rich kids who go to an uncontacted world, land in a farmer's field in front of someone nobody will believe, and walk around making bloop bloop noises for fun.
Rather childish, really.
"Just for once, I'd like to read a science fiction story where a colony ship is woken up 50 years later by some hotshots out for a daytrip in their Cosmic Spyder 500 sports ship, or the Carnival Cruise Lines Princess Leia II, finding out their target colony planet now has a population of 100 million."
I have read a story exactly like this, though I can't remember a lot of details. They went through the typical space struggle, and when they arrived to their target planet, there was a huge welcome waiting for them because newer colony ships had already beaten them there.
There are multiple stories like this though.
You're probably thinking of Far Centaurus. It's the classic story in that genre.
"Just for once, I'd like to read a science fiction story where a colony ship is woken up 50 years later by some hotshots out for a daytrip in their Cosmic Spyder 500 sports ship, or the Carnival Cruise Lines Princess Leia II, finding out their target colony planet now has a population of 100 million."
Maybe you should...read more? This was explored as far back as 1944 at least.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_Centaurus
This is a pretty common trope.
Thanks -- does sound interesting, and AE van Vogt always tickled my science fiction fancy. But it is only a short story, and I've not heard of any others for what you claim is pretty common. Unless I've been majorly unlucky, they are aren't as common as the colony ship stories.
The reason I linked to that page was that there are several other stories listed at the bottom in the "Impact" section.
This issue is discussed regularly when talking about interstellar travel- it is called the "Wait Calculation".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel#Wait_calculation
There are multiple solutions to Einstein's equations that permit super-luminal travel.
We don't know if any of that is 'real' - but the equations do allow it. Along with time travel.
You don't wait. You send out a ship every century. Or even every thousand years. When the colonies (that survive) mature enough they send their own ships out. Its still an exponential growth, the difference being 100's of millions of years versus a million - but the galaxy is 13 *billion* years old. Plenty of time for it to have been colonized multiple times over.
Hundreds of thousands of years is a very short period of time compared to the lifespan of the universe (14.7B y)
Superlineal growth is complete bullshit. As society has become more affluent, healthier (especially in pediatrics) and less labor intensive, birth rates have decreased dramatically. Ergo, the underlying premise of this study is completely discredited by real world data. It's also discredited by well known and studied biological concepts. Populations tend to breed less when populations are more abundant, and breed more when populations are stressed and low. The problem with invasive species isn't how fast they breed, but how slowly they die off. But if you look at breeding activity, it actually decreases as the population of an invasive species (or when the preay-predator relationship is unbalanced) increases. You end up with overpopulation mainly due to lower mortality not over breeding. You could argue the latter is a state we are in, but like when preay-predator relationships are unbalanced, this decrease in breeding, results in population regression as birth rates fail to achieve replacement levels. We are far more likely to achieve that state this century than overpopulation. Many western countries and wealthy east Asian countries, have already entered this state. Even some emerging countries are starting to enter this state.
"...an invasive species..." is a bullshit term! Are humans an invasive species worldwide, or only to 45 square miles, 34 square yards, or 2 square feet of Africa? Are horses an invasive species on North America, where they went extinct and came back? ... The truth of the matter is that there is NO data-driven biological or chemical test that we can run to detect "invasive species" (or not), other than human-recorded HISTORY, which is fallible! After all, talk to Rob Misek (the Miserable Misek), and learn that... The Holocaust never happened!
One might contend that the Nazis were an invasive species.
"You could argue the latter is a state we are in, but like when preay-predator relationships are unbalanced, this decrease in breeding, results in population regression as birth rates fail to achieve replacement levels."
Yes I tend to agree. Raising offspring is incredibly resource intensive, and so you only have lots of kids if resources are very very cheap or if those kids are unlikely to make it to reproductive ages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition#:~:text=In%20demography%2C%20demographic%20transition%20is,in%20societies%20with%20advanced%20technology%2C
THIS is why we need to WORSHIP the Sacred Inherent Human Rights of Fartilized Egg Smells!!! Ye do NOT want to spend $XYZ hundred thousand dollars to raise a child that you can NOT afford?!? Tough titties for YOU! Give BIRTH to it, dammit! BUCK that horrible "demographic transition", in the Sacred Name of the Human Rights of the Fartilized Egg Smell!!!
(And if Mom dies giving birth to a baby who will NEVER live past a few days? So what about the healthy and wanted children that she MIGHT have given birth to, in the future!!! Fartilized Egg Smells MUST be defended, at ALL costs!!! See https://www.newyorker.com/science/annals-of-medicine/what-the-life-of-the-mother-might-mean-in-a-post-roe-america What the “Life of the Mother” Might Mean in a Post-Roe America
“We are going to see more deaths and more injuries,” Ghazaleh Moayedi, an ob-gyn in Dallas, said. “I don’t have to speculate about that at all.”
Why do you love murder so much?
Do you think you can tell the difference between the cell of a 10 week old baby and a 10 year old child?
I love your conclusion, that the ban on murder being expanded to more living, complete humans means there will be more death and injuries?
Again, why do you love murder so much? Did you ever wonder about that?
Also see https://www.wired.com/story/roe-fall-limit-screening-fatal-congenital-conditions/ “Roe’s Fall Will Limit Screening for Fatal Congenital Conditions”. Self-righteous anti-abortion fanatics may soon heap HUGE helpings of extra grief on parents who will be FORCED to have Mom carry a soon-dead to birth! Shall we ALSO rub Mom’s nose in her forced futile efforts, in the form of the dead baby? Would THAT help satisfy your punishment boners as well?
The above are worthy reads! SOME late-term pregnancies are GUARANTEED to NOT yield a baby that you can take home! Women WILL die, for lack of late-term abortions! (What is better, a few minutes or hours for a doomed infant (outside of the womb), plus a dead mom, or a living mom, who can live for many more years? Maybe even give birth to HEALTHY babies, later on?).
And do you want POLITICIANS to decide, instead of moms and their doctors? Speaking of clueless politicians, see https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/23/idaho-republican-anti-abortion-swallow-camera , “Anti-abortion lawmaker gets anatomy lesson – women cannot swallow camera for exam.” (“Pill-cam”). It seems Idaho representative Vito Barbieri wasn’t listening in the third grade, when another student asked the teacher, “If babies come from mommy’s tummy, how come they don’t get digested?” And he’s not done ANY even vaguely serious studying of health matters since then, either! This clearly shows the UTTER medical ignorance of many power-hungry politicians, who would STILL over-regulate medicine, in order to pander to fanatics! Ignorance for the win, over decency, humility, and self-restraint!
Yep, demographic transition is a real thing.
And if the right Top Men are in charge.
We are an alien civilization to someone else. As we can see observing ourselves, alien civilizations will devolve into "other ways of knowing" and "gender pronoun debates" long before they advance enough to colonize the galaxy.
and Futurama ensues ...
You mean their chicks have dicks?
Oh, FUTURErama...
On the other hand, Wong and Bartlett suggest that some exo-civilizations might become aware of the unsustainability of their superlinear trajectory. In order to avoid impending collapse, such alien civilizations would engage in "homeostatic awakenings" in which they choose to transcend the pursuit of unbounded growth. Thus, the Fermi paradox is resolved: No alien visitors to Earth have been detected because they either destroy themselves or they choose to stay quietly at home.
AKA "America first" and a lack of interest in foreign entanglements.
I *knew* Trump was to blame for the lack of interstellar colonization of non-terrestrial species, the despicable racist.
There must be intelligent life out there because there ain't any here har har har
Lol at the irony
Any society that can travel between the stars can probably make anything they need with the push of a button of their replicator. And said society would be smart enough to stay clear of us or observe in silence.
these two have missed one of the other possible theories that earth was planted by aliens. who knows we may be the offspring of criminals sent here for punishment.
Like Australia, but on a grander planetary scale.
And look how THAT turned out.
Yeah, the voluntary curtailment of growth because it appears unsustainable has no historical precedent. When a successful society gets too crowded in their home territory, they expand.
Alien cities or planets getting too crowded is a reason to start expanding into space, not a reason to stop growing. It makes interstellar expansion more likely, not less.
My guess is the Great Filter isn't life starting or life becoming intelligent or intelligent life developing technology, it's the cost in resources and energy and time to go beyond low Earth/planetary orbit into interstellar space faring. "Assume they can travel at X% of the speed of light" is a big assumption for any non-negligible value of X.
Apollo 11 reached 24,200 mph. We still haven't topped that in 50 years.
The speed of light is 670,600,000 mph.
Apollo 11 traveled at 0.0036% of the speed of light.
You can't escape the example, or laws, of physics.
Mass continues to accumulate until it cannot do so anymore, destroyed either by a competing center of mass or the nuclear forces within it.
There is nothing this is not fundamentally true of.
It is what is.
I think there was a manhole cover from one of the nuke tests that was measured, from the single frame of film that caught it in flight, at something like 150k mph. So, assuming that we could somehow harden a probe to withstand the explosion and aim it in the right direction, it would reach the nearest neighboring star system in something like 3,000 years.
"A deeper theoretical understanding of the dynamics that determine the value of β [superlinearity] may reveal suggestions for how we can enact a fundamental change to our 'way of life' that helps us consciously avoid self-induced collapse."
I see Green New Deal advocates.
Haven't heard about that in a while. Must have been solely to garner votes from the progs. Haha, suckers.
This is just proxy for climate fear, nothing less.
Or maybe we haven't met aliens because interstellar travel and physics aren't friends. They aren't buddies. Heck, they're not even on speaking terms.
Yeah. I don't know why people never mention that possibility. Maybe interstellar travel just isn't a practical possibility. In theory some things are possible with a practically unlimited source of energy, but those are pretty hard to come by too. Maybe we're all just stuck in our own star systems or local neighborhoods.
maybe all we know isn't all there is?
That's certainly another possibility (and very likely) and I don't rule it out. Most sci-fi relies on some undiscovered physics that makes all of this possible, so that's what everyone imagines. I think you also need to consider the possibility that rapid travel between stars is just not technically possible as our current understanding of space-time suggests. You could always do generation ships, but how likely is it that such an endeavor would land somewhere people can live. Or even make it there with anyone still alive?
Yeah if our universe is ruled by Einstein's Relativity, then we do need to grapple with the fact that FTL is pretty much impossible. And, btw, that includes things like wormholes and space warps. At the least, a universe where information can be relayed to people faster than light is a universe where causality does not exist. FTL is time travel, relativistically speaking.
So that means you need to envision interstellar travel at sub-light speeds, which means envisioning huge ark-ships that are capable of transiting the hostility of space for tens or hundreds of years. That is a HUGE technical problem to overcome. It is a problem so difficult that simple laws of entropy make it highly unlikely.
Not really. Wormholes are generally considered to be at a quantum level or a bending of space to reduce distance.
It has been my understanding that if you were able to approach a worm hold, you wouldn't want to be there. Something about being stretched apart like until you resemble a piece of uncooked spaghetti.
It is all theoretical. But it would probably require some type of shielding or bubble.
The problem with wormholes that bend space is it would require creating gravitational wells to bend space. If you could generate a sync required, you should be able to generate a competing force to not be crushed by it.
"Not really. Wormholes are generally considered to be at a quantum level or a bending of space to reduce distance."
If a wormhole allows faster than light transmission of information, then either causality does not exist, or special relativity is wrong.
FTL, Causality, Relativity: Pick two.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2219039-quantum-weirdness-could-allow-a-person-sized-wormhole-to-last-forever/
Thats the thing with science. The very basics are still being discovered. Just like atoms became quarks.
If there is a wormhole that can transfer information faster than light, then either causality doesn't exist, or Relativity is wrong. Because Relativity means different reference frames, then if information can move faster than light, it means People in different frames (ie moving at different relative velocities) I could send you a message, that you send to Nardz, that he sends to me and I receive prior to sending you my message. It breaks causality.
So we are at an impass here. Either this mathematical model based on quantum theory is wrong, or Relativity is wrong. Given that the latter has correctly predicted faaaaar more than quantum mechanics has ever done, I am willing to bet that those wormholes are either being described by a writer incorrectly, or the theory is, alas, wrong.
But ymmv. Maybe I'm wrong.
Relativity, Causality, FTL travel - you can only pick two!
Both 'causality' AND special relativity are correct only up to the point that humans are able to perceive.
Humans are just barely past the 'fertilization' stage of their ability to perceive.
'Causality' is a symptom of this.
Quantum entanglement is a wildcard, but even Einstein said "fuck this shit"
First of all, when you actually read about Quantum Entanglement experiments in practice, you find that they don't actually break FTL. This is because you still need to share information between the observers of the two particles in order to determine what happened, and that information sharing cannot break the speed of light.
Second of all, if you really read what Einstein was saying, it was that Quantum Entanglement is bullshit, and what they are describing is not what is actually happening.
Either way, if you believe one way or the other, it still doesn't break causality.
My personal opinion is that generation ships seem like the most feasible option right now for interstellar travel. Generation ships aren't technically feasible right now but they at least seem plausible.
In contrast, interstellar travel within, say, 10 years of observed time requires absolutely enormous amounts of energy, and an assumption that we can convert matter to energy at close to the E=Mc^2 limit, and an assumption that we can figure out how to avoid running into a tiny piece of dust at an insane speed which will destroy the space craft.
To me generation ships are an ethical nightmare. Who can in good conscience doom someone to that fate?
They're certainly not libertarian. Not with a lack of adequate sex-worker and weed supply.
How do you illegally immigrate to a generational ship?
stow away in the wheel well.
Whaddyamean? Hulls are just a figment of the collective imagination.
Call it the Mayflower and Pilgrims will charter it
"To me generation ships are an ethical nightmare. Who can in good conscience doom someone to that fate?"
I don't think there is anything necessarily unethical about putting your kids on a path of limited options. People move to isolated islands with their kids. Some distant family took their kids to an isolated commune up in Oregon. Their kids largely didn't go to school and didn't build any of the social capital that one gets when being raised in a functional community (these communes are terrible, barely stone age living). Is it sub-optimal? Perhaps, but not unethical if you think you are producing a good life for them.
Certainly if we move to space, anyone living on mars, or some other low-gravity worlds are ensuring their children can likely never get back to earth. But at the same time, they have opened up far more options about their future.
That isn't to say a Generation Ship can't be created and structure in a way that is unethical. It would certainly need to be built in a way that allows for as much freedom in certain parameters as possible.
Didn't our parents bring us to one?
That's a really good question. Maybe if for some reason things get so bad on Earth that moving to another planet could be the only chance for survival.
Again, if you *could* surpass FTL, even just with photons, why would you bother with homeostasis, interstellar travel, or sub-FTL life? It's like saying "We can't detect Dr. Who or Rick Sanchez moving through the time stream or between alternate realities, therefore, alien life doesn't exist." That's not to say that FTL exists or can be done but that the paradox is a bit "If God exists, why doesn't he answer prayers?" when, if someone posited that question to you, as an agnostic scientist, you'd know to quote his own belief about knowing/invoking the will of God back to him as heresy.
In truth, earth has been cut off forever from other galaxies because we murdered Babyfarts McGiszack, stole the space cash, then lied about all of it.
I blame Finland.
Once you can build a generation ship and have unlimited power conversion technology, you don't need to find a planet anyway. You can just keep living in the ship or build more of them.
That is another key point that I made in another article talking about fighting aliens. Once you have clawed your way out of Earth's gravity well, and figured out how to live indefinitely in space, there really is very little incentive to plunk yourself back down at the bottom of a gravity well.
"Just change the gravitational constant of The Universe."
Well sure, it’s easy if you’re a member of the Q Continuum.
That's kinda my point. At the point in future human history where we've got facility to manipulate matter and energy to traverse the Universe rather freely, gravity wells like Earth are, or should be, relatively inconsequential. Otherwise, we don't really have the facility to manipulate matter and energy to traverse The Universe rather freely. The Earth isn't a very big gravity well and, given a scant couple thousand years, even monkeys can figure out how to get out of it.
The Earth isn't a very big gravity well
In the grand scheme of things.
Natural resources, man.
Same as it's always been.
Consider what a generation ship is.
It is an almost completely closed system, capable of providing for ALL the needs for a stable society for potentially hundreds of years. All the food we eat. All the energy to grow that food. All the food that food eats, and so on. The ability to fix genetic mutations and plant phages that could destroy your crop or food animals. The ability to provide for entertainment, and social disorder and other items. The ability to repair aaallll of this machinery. Even as metals fatigue and break, as circuits burn out, as LED lights fail.
Our experience is that even the best materials degrade over decades, let alone centuries. Essentially this "mostly closed system" needs the materials and spare energy necessary to essentially rebuild itself once or twice over on its trip much as the human body constantly rebuilds itself over its decades of life.
In essence, you have created a permanent habitat that perfectly suits the needs of your society...If you have that ability, why do you need to find another planet to live on? Indeed, doing so just complicates things further- you not only need the ideal habitat, but you need to figure out how to give it enough propulsion to escape your solar system on a trip to the unknown.
The laws of thermodynamics tell us that no closed system can live indefinitely. It will need to take in raw materials. If it doesn't need raw materials, then it at least needs ENERGY to constantly, perfectly recycle all of the materials that it has in the system. So either you leave these habitats in orbit around a large source of energy (a star) or you figure out how to take a super-dense energy fuel, a long with your propellant, into the great dark unknown.
Given all this, you wouldn't expect to see the explosive growth of civilizations across the galaxy. They would tend to stay within their star system, using up the boundless resources there, and ultimately recycling them constantly using the energy of their star. And yes, at some point, as that star was ready to die, they might be chased to a new solar system, but their journey would begin there again.
The idea that these civilizations would grow exponentially or indefinitely is not a given. Even our civilization has tended towards reduced birth rates as the energy costs of our offspring have grown. You can't cheat reality. As your society's ability to sustain a larger population hits technological limits, some limiting factor- whether it is market-driven prices, or fundamentalist canabilism- will ensure that the society stays only within what it can grow to.
Your generation ship will be an entire asteroid.
The crew will mine the asteroid for metals and radioactive isotopes to repair parts and generate energy.
They will need to arrive at the destination before the resources are used up.
Their society will need to remember how to repair everything on that ship.
Once at the destination, it will take several generations before another asteroid ship can be sent out to the next habitable star.
400 years ago it was thought impossible to cross the Atlantic, it was just too far.
There are already theoretical ideas on how to fly outside the galaxy. It requires warping space, but there are theoretical reasons why it would be possible.
Yes, I am well aware of those ideas. But they all depend on some unsupported speculations about physics or having an unlimited energy source.
I'm just saying it might not be possible in any practical/useful way.
Well to be fair it wasn't just the distance of the Atlantic they thought that they'd have to cross to reach land. It was the Atlantic, the Pacific and the area occupied by the Americas. They thought a circumpolar route might be doable, but going straight West was pointless. Heading East was far shorter.
Thank goodness Columbus was a numpty who had seriously miscalculated the size of the planet.
You mean 600 years ago.
Columbus crossed the Atlantic 530 years ago.
Magellan crossed the Pacific 500 years ago.
And Der TrumpfenFuhrer crossed our democratic power-transfer-norms-Rubicon about 1.5 years ago... With His All-Powerful Biggly BIG LIE!!! All Hail!!!
Yes. He's bringing up Democratic talking points about Trump in a conversation about aliens, but don't dare call him tribal. Everyone else is tribal, not him.
Everyone who condemns Shitler-Hitler and his EVIL doings is just a HORRIBLE tribalist!
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump’s Big Lie and Hitler’s: Is this how America’s slide into totalitarianism begins?
The above is mostly strictly factual, with very little editorializing. When I post it, the FACTS never get refuted… I only get called names. But what do you expect from morally, ethically, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt Trumpturds?
Totalitarians want to turn GOP into GOD (Grand Old Dicktatorshit).
Well, there are really two pieces to the Fermi Paradox- yes, they should be able to spread around. But also, the galaxy should be very noisy. Even if Aliens are confined to their solar systems, we should be able to observe signs of their growth.
The counter to that latter point is that- if humanity is any guide- the window where a civilization is observable might be quite small. We were only broadcasting strong analog signals for a few decades. When you move to digital, it becomes more difficult to tell actual data from noise. Likewise, how many thousands of years will a stellar civilization be visible to the universe before it closes its sun off behind a Dyson sphere. If that happened before roughly 80 years ago, we lost our chance to observe this.
This is also assuming that any sufficiently advanced civilization will necessarily use the exact "noisy" communication methods that we are looking for at some point in time. Consider: if an entirely aquatic civilization developed itself, why would they ever bother with radio waves? They probably know that they exist, certainly, but it's unlikely they'd bother using them for general purpose long-distance communications.
There is a *very* cogent argument to be made that Fermi's projection is based around our (then) current understanding of physics, which is very non-conducive to the type of interstellar travel it would require.
A lot of the fundamental fabric of reality, down to the level of even bothering to interact with Newtonian organisms, goes out the window when you can approach the speed of light relatively at will. A bit of, more sophisticated, "If God had intended us to fly, he would've given us wings." I'm sure somebody, somewhere visits Promontory Summit out of historical curiosity, most people just fly over or drive by it and use teh interwebz if they need more information.
What's changed in our understanding of physics since Fermi's day that makes interstellar flight more theoretically practical now?
As I understand it right the biggest challenge to interstellar flight is that acceleration and deceleration fast enough to travel to another star in human lifetime takes a heck of a lot of energy which means a heck of a lot of fuel and a very efficient means of converting fuel to energy. I think that's bounded by E=mc^2 and that hasn't changed since Fermi's day.
The other solution(s) are ships which take much longer than 1 human lifetime to complete the journey, requiring much less energy/fuel but either requiring multiple generations (seems feasible in theory) or suspended animation (still science fiction). I think both those options were probably understood by at least a few people in Fermi's day.
What's changed in our understanding of physics since Fermi's day that makes interstellar flight more theoretically practical now?
You misunderstand. The acknowledgement of the paradox is a bit of a paradox. Think of it this way, we build the Eiffel Tower and blast radio waves into space that attract the attention of the abundance of interstellar travelers and they stop by for a visit. Do they descend in dirigibles lit with carbon arc lamps?
What's changed in our understanding of physics since Fermi's day? While I understand the point about relativity, it's pretty insulting to say that nothing's changed in physics or our understanding of it, on Earth or in space, since Fermi banged out his reactor calculations using a slide rule.
Sorry if I misunderstood.
But my point was that based on our current understanding of physics it doesn't seem physically possible to significant numbers of human beings from one star system to another in significantly less time than a human lifetime without massive levels of energy / matter for propulsion. And I think that was about the same situation in Fermi's time.
Right. So, logically, if another species *is* moving significant numbers of their species point to point freely enough come visit, they aren't constrained by your, or Fermi's, understanding of physics.
For a species that can move faster than the speed of light required to populate multiple star systems, trying to communicate with them using radio waves is like trying to communicate with the captain of a speed boat by tapping your toe in the water.
So you are publishing theories about alien life forms that have never been detected, where there is zero insight into their society or motivations, where we have absolutely no idea of what kind of planet they come from, or whether or not they evolved on a trajectory that resembles anything even remotely like ours.
How did I miss the memo that Reason was planning on becoming the next Weekly World News?
[IMHO: Reason would do well to return to pretending to be a libertarian magazine]
perhaps you should have read the last sentence. Seems pretty clear why this is in Reason. Indeed, Bailey has written many articles over the years critical of Malthus. In particular, he likes to highlight how Malthus' stupid ideas always seem to get a new gloss of paint, as is the case here. But I get it, you need your axe to grind. Carry on.
No axe to grind, I just find Reason to be a very odd place for this. And just because at the very end he is critical of the authors of the subject matter for article he just wrote does not make it less any stupid.
Years ago, Weekly World News published an acritical where some Austrian animal rights group was petitioning the WHO to declare Werewolves as endangered species. A few weeks later, another author published an article condemning that idea, as protecting werewolves as endangered would lead to a public health crisis.
Fun reading? Absolutely. But it is still stupid made up bullshit that should not get any press outside of the WWN. That is my problem with this... I am not against reading about fanciful solutions to retarded paradoxes, I just don't believe it is a good fit for this particular publication.
Guys I will be happy just to know that none of the resources extorted from my by my government [aka "taxes"] went toward this "study" in the form of a grant.
shrimp on a treadmill dude. no cats remain in the bag.
But what about the cat in the box?
Kill it.
Better this than the FBI.
It’s just a blog post. It’s not like it’s an article published in the print magazine. It’s wasting a few MB on their web server and some bandwidth, the latter you are adding considerably to by complaining about the blog post.
FFS you’re tedious.
Malthus, Marx, etc. have ideas that are very attractive to sociopaths looking for excuses to dominate and inflict misery on populations.
You can still make logical guesses though.
Any society that survived long enough to develop advanced technology is probably warlike and crushed its competing societies. Either they want to continue expanding into space to conquer more territory, or they want to indoctrinate us in their religion, or both.
"Any society that survived long enough to develop advanced technology is probably warlike and crushed its competing societies."
Or they never warred at all and developed completely without need for conflict.
Indeed, if there is one thing we have learned in history it is that the more power you invest in individuals to solve problems for themselves and others, the better and more stable that society becomes. Problems of scarcity that tend to drive violence start to go away.
Show me one place in the universe without conflict.
The laws of physics do not allow it.
Movement = inevitable conflict = existence/life.
Lack of conflict = stasis = imaginary.
What an incredibly naive and utopian thought process.
To the extent violence has diminished among Man, it's because it's been bred out, preempted by transformation into abstract and passive forms, or under threat from greater force/violence.
But sure, sing Lennon all day long. Just imagine!
Your arguments use several rhetorical tricks to make it seem like violence is inevitable when it really isn't. In particular, you keep equivocating between laws of physics like motion and gravity, and laws of human behavior. The fact that you can poetically use physics terms to describe human behavior does not mean human behavior is as inevitable as physics. The fact that you can metaphorically describe life as "movement" does not mean it follows the same laws as Newton's laws of motion.
>Show me one place in the universe without conflict.
Multicellular organisms. Cells united together and cooperating instead of fighting like single cell organisms. This increases their reproductive fitness. In the instances where cells do conflict (cancer) the organism often dies and loses reproductive fitness.
Humans are slowly learning to cooperate in the same way. We can't take this metaphor too far of course, healthy societies don't treat humans expendably the same way humans treat their skin cells.
>preempted by transformation into abstract and passive forms
This is just the woke/SJW tendency to claim anything and everything is violence. If people have found nonviolent ways to compete that means violence has gone down. That in turn means conflict has gone down. Replacing severe conflict with less severe conflict means a net reduction in conflict. Even if we never get to a world of zero conflict, society can gradually approach it more and more closely.
People prone to black and white thinking often mistake it for clarity and insight. The fact that there is a little bit of conflict than most places is not a good argument against the idea that conflict has vastly reduced.
>under threat from greater force/violence.
If that threat is rarely carried out because most people recognize it and choose not to use violence, then violence has genuinely gone down.
>Lack of conflict = stasis = imaginary.
It is possible to have movement and non-stasis without conflict. In fact, conflict is a major cause of stasis. People waste resources fighting that they could be used to build, so society gets stuck in a rut.
Existence is literally violence.
You're not gonna make it, groomer.
I would not choose to stay quietly at home and assume I cannot be the only one.
The other option is everyone opts into the metaverse and plays video games forever. No need to board a spaceship for the rest of your life when you have a holodeck in your basement you can visit whenever you want.
if they figure out how to upload me I'll play Highlander forever sure.
Highlander in a Metaverse? But there could be only one to play him. What if someone else wanted to play him?
I assume everyone would want to play. An eternal contest like the movie.
Occam's razor says that the Fermi Paradox is most likely solved by a simple problem: The universe is not an easy place to live, let alone foment the conditions for intelligence to arise.
Our galaxy is a very, very dangerous place to be alive. Until very recently in the galactic past, supernovas resulted in gamma ray bursts that could sterilize entire solar systems from distances up to a third of the galaxy away. One star popping off could inundate hundreds of thousands of nearby planets, essentially resetting the clock on the development of life.
If indeed the galaxy is only now reaching the point where life CAN arise, then it is possible that there IS life teeming in the galaxy, but the light from those events has yet to reach Earth.
Or maybe intelligence isn't as great an evolutionary adaptation as we like to think it is and in another several hundred or thousand years we'll be living in trees again.
I find that difficult to believe. With intelligence we have proven capable of adapting to far more varied environments and changes than genetics alone.
If life is really the perpetuation of information necessary to solve challenges then our ability to share information is pretty much the game winner short of pure omniscience.
What happens when information gets buried in the raised noise floor we call Tik Tok
I thought we were talking about intelligent life.
I like to think that's true. But I don't know. And never will as I'm only likely to live another 40 years or so if I'm lucky.
But we are indisputably less intelligent than our ancestors.
We have more information than they did, but we are not smarter.
Our solar system, with a relatively calm star, gas giants in the outer system, a terrestrial planet in the habitable with a magnetosphere and especially the Earth-Moon pairing may be a very improbable set of circumstances and there may be, at best, another half dozen planets in the galaxy that have similar conditions. A lot of the problem with the Fermi Paradox is the assumptions that go into the equation.
Or maybe it's a simulation, and only one planet is seeded in each galaxy. There could still be many, many alien civilizations, just too far away in remote galaxies.
Occam's razor says we haven't observed aliens because there aren't any. Life is unique to Earth.
I've always stuck with theory that life is so rare and so far apart, that civilizations rise up and burn themselves out before they ever come across each other.
Given the vastness of the universe [infinite] and the obstacles and dangers that have been addressed in these comments, that seems very likely.
IOW, even IF there is life elsewhere, it has dick to do with us because we are so far apart we can never encounter one another.
And I really hope none of my extorted tax dollars went toward this bullshit.
And, again, that posits strictly 3D space where the only escape essentially invokes a large degree of 4D travel.
Likely
Pretty sure that is only the simplest explanation if you tackle the issue from a religious position. From a more secular stance, the way odds tend to run, a much simpler explanation is that the Milky Way is the Idaho of the universe and that our little galaxy is the Elk River of Idaho... Middle of fucking nowhere and not on the way to or from anything important or interesting.
The Copernican Principle says we can't assume we are special observers. We are most likely a typical example.
Our planet has a fortuitous combination of conditions for life to arise, but so do millions of other planets. Chemistry and physics are consistent across the galaxy.
This is why the Gamma Wasteland theory holds so much promise. It is the smallest tweak to what we know that explains what we observe. You don't need to assume that societies that have learned to cross stars somehow wipe themselves out, or that they transcend some energy state to become space angels.
No, it's just that our assumptions of how long life has had to develop were wrong. Until very recently there were too many gamma rays for life to begin. And only now are we emerging. We may even be some of the first since our position in the galaxy is relatively isolated from super novas.
I finally tracked down an article discussing this:
https://physics.aps.org/articles/v7/124
The interesting thing about the math in that model is that it seems to agree with our historical record- that there is a 50% chance the earth was hit by a gamma ray burst in the past billion years, and a 90% chance that we were hit in the past 5 Billion years. Prior to that, the galaxy was likely receiving more of these.
We don't know what all those conditions are. The Weak Anthropic Principle says we may indeed assume we are special observers. We're certainly nowhere near getting a random sample.
The Copernican Prospector passed up a diamond the size of a grapefruit. He reasoned that if he found one there must be billions, and if there are billions it wasn't worth picking up.
His grandson was the Copernican Lottery Player. He bought tickets reasoning that everyone else did and humility demanded that he not believe himself special. On the same logic he never checked if he'd won.
And as Stan Lee's singers observed, Gamma Rays are very "un-glamourée."
The Incredble Hulk Intro (1966)
https://youtu.be/b9u7GjNkp5Y
How is that a study? It's some interesting speculation, but it seems like there are a lot of other possibilities. Also seems a bit like a Malthusian model of things.
Aren't there already aliens among us?
The wife and I were joking that maybe Onomonaomuomua - you know that asteroid from another solar system- was actually an alien craft, and the whole reason for mask mandates was so that the aliens- who look kind of like us, but not perfect- can pass among us secretly.
I'd like to meet your dealer...
Harvard's top astronomer wrote a book about it:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0358278147/reasonmagazinea-20/
Yeah, the History Channel kicked the Fermi Paradox to the curb a decade ago. Human history is teeming with proof of alien visitations in the ancient past, to hear them tell it.
Lol. Fake history channel.
That shit really pisses me off.
Bunch of fucking talentless little bitches projecting their lack of capability onto our ancestors.
Just the lizard people. In Congress.
"Argues New Study"
New study of what?
No alien life let alone civilization has ever been found. This is supposition wrapped in speculation wrapped in fantasy. It's everything that atheists accuse religion of being. Some blue-haired's Mary-Sue Star Trek fanfic has as much validity as this.
"The two researchers are addressing the Fermi paradox."
The Drake equation that prompted the Fermi paradox was presented for the purpose of speculation, not calculation. Every estimate seriously presented using it is ascientific garbage and debunked as pathological science decades ago. Virtually every value is unknowable, so the paradox doesn't actually exist.
I want there to be a universe out there full of hot alien babes and exotic cultures as badly as anyone else. But until even the minutest evidence of alien life is discovered this sort of thing is fantasy and games.
It's what you post on your blog, not present in a paper.
>>minutest evidence of alien life is discovered
octopi.
octopi = 25.1327
exactly.
> print(octopi)
> 83
Duck-typing space Hoosier.
"I want there to be a universe out there full of hot alien babes and exotic cultures as badly as anyone else."
The way things are going they'd probably be coneheads.
Go on...
If every human being had your hatred of curiosity and science we wouldn't have even figured out how to create fire.
If every human being had your confusion of fact and supposition we'd all think humans were making the earth hotter.
You're a moron. Muted.
Oh nooooooooooooooooooo!
And you're a fucking idiot. Explain to me how anything I said demonstrated "a hatred of curiosity and science", clowntits.
Pathological science isn't science, and fantasy isn't curiosity.
Marxist Mammary-Fuhrer the Great Necrophiliac will now EXPLAIN to us lowly peons (ass you would to a child) that the Great Intergalactic Civilizations have disappeared from our view... Because they have PERFECTED their Perfect Christian Theology!!! The Great Intergalactic Civilizations have NO need for lowly "tech" any more, such as radio waves... They have sublimated into Perfectly Invisible-to-the-peons Christian Theology, where their MAGIC BELIEFS will PROTECT them from their Own (Perfect) Evils! Karma HAS been defeated! What comes around, will no longer go around, if'n ye just BELIEVE in the following Magic Beliefs, per Marxist Mammary-Fuhrer the Great Necrophiliac...
Hear, hear, HEAR ye the self-righteous preachings of MammaryBahnFuhrer! (Imported below). She knows JUST the right “Popular-with-the-Cool-Kids-in-Her-Own-Mind” theology to espouse, along with wearing JUST the right purse, hairstyle, whorestyle, and other accessories! Meanwhile, in the EXACT same source, She engaged in identity theft! Her heart, in truth, is a ravening black hole of hypocrisy, greedy self-righteousness, and other evils!
Now, the preachings of The Great Mammary. Note that She picks the verses that say that the right BELIEFS and whorestyles get you “in” with the “in” crowd, and then you’re free to engage in ID theft and other evils, at will!
Mammary-style whorestyles - preachings below:
It amazes me how Americans living in a purportedly Christian culture don't even understand the basic tenets of its theology.
Pretty much the whole point of Christianity is that everyone has sinned and is worthy of damnation so God became a human and took our punishment for us. And the libertarian angle is, that you still have a choice to accept or reject the gift already given.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23 ESV: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16-17 ESV: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
That's the bible being quoted SQRLSY, not my ideas. I'm not Jesus.
Also, genuinely surprised an old liar like you could copypaste bible verses without catching on fire.
Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, Supreme Demonic Director of Decay, Destruction, and Death, will now SPEAK! HARKKK silently and RESPECTFULLY, all ye lowly heathens, as She Directs Death, and announces WHICH few of us MIGHT deserve to live, and WHO all deserves to DIE-DIE-DIE!!!
https://reason.com/2022/01/25/did-these-three-officers-willfully-deprive-george-floyd-of-his-constitutional-rights/?comments=true#comment-9323626
“You should really join ᛋᛋqrlsy, ᛋᛋhrike. You two goosestepping fascists offing yourselves would definitely be a mitzvah.”
-Quote MammaryBahnFuhrer the "Expert Christian Theologian"
So Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, Supreme Demonic Director of Decay, Destruction, and Death... WHEN are You going to STOP stealing the IDs of Your victims, and then posting kiddie porn in THEIR names, and then blaming THEM?
Inquiring minds want to KNOW, dammit!
But Bailey calling it a "study" is so on brand for him
The distances involved mean interstellar travel is unachievable. Be serious and quit claiming the obvious impact of this has some alternative explanation which (I'm sure coincidentally) just happens to support the left's political wishes.
"The distances involved mean interstellar travel is unachievable." Nobody knows that.
What we know is that we don't presently know how to travel between stars within a human lifetime.
Go find a wormhole and dive in.
You are hilarious. Do you do kids' birthday parties?
Star Wars isn't real.
It was. Then wokeness killed it.
For aliens, a ‘human’ lifetime’ might be meaningless.
Coincidentally a 'human lifetime' is also meaningless to a mayfly.
Physicists assure us that accelerating at 1g would do the trick. What "we" and engineers don't know is how to accelerate a live passenger at 1g for a day, much less millennia--as viewed from the stationary frame of reference. Kurt Russell likes to remind people that movies are fun, but different from real life.
You don’t need interstellar travel to settle the galaxy. All you need to do is gradually expand settlements to planets and Oort objects. In fact, because of the way stars move, once you’re in the Oort cloud, if you keep settling new objects, you will inevitably cover large parts of the galaxy within a few dozen galactic rotations.
How much of our grant money went to that "study"? They came to the same two conclusions that have been explored in countless science fiction stories since the first publication of Fermi's Paradox. They offer nothing new - not even new speculation. And in the process, they blithely ignore the many other possible answers to the Paradox that have been explored by fiction.
Fermi's question was very apropos. It is a sobering challenge to all who wish evidence existed for what they want to believe. Like girl-bullying Republicans challenged to produce the "God" that determines their lust for altruism as justifying the initiation of force, True Believers typically respond with anger, resentment, violence or changing the subject. Von Daniken was in prison for fraud when disabused of his aliens claims, yet he still recites the same lies as if no evidence had ever wrecked his fantasies a half-century ago.
Or maybe alien civilizations don't exist? Who says a civilization is the end state of evolutionary life? It makes no sense to assume life will evolve into something more intelligent much less sentient. Why would it?
I think Occam's razor suggests that there are no aliens. Life is unique to Earth.
Natural selection selects for that which survives the best. That is not the same as "most intelligent". Moreover, to the extent intelligence helps with survival, it doesn't necessarily have to be paired with sentience and opposable thumbs to do that.
People like Bailey are just as religious as any theist. The just worship "evolution" like it is some magic machine that produces the universe of their dreams.
Sorry, but one counterexample wrecks that argument. Granted, within the 24-light-hours our farthest probe has looked, nobody waved back. Yet life, unlike deities, exists, and galaxies are large and numerous. Detecting an eerie silence is unsurprising when you recall that nuclear-armed humanity thought there were canals on Mars until evidence finally crushed that wishful hope.
This clinches it. It really is 1972 again.
Half of me wants to think the inflation, the energy crisis, and all the UFO talk are part of some elaborate publicity stunt for the 50th anniversary of Disney World.
Only those guys could pull it off.
Here is another good recent study, if you are into modelling this stuff.
https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.07902
Thank you for the link!
Besides humans, how many species on earth are going out of their way to communicate with other species? None, that I'm aware of.
I expect in that respect we are fairly unique. I'm guessing most extreterrestrial species have figured out diversity is not their strength, and are wisely ignoring our signals.
That is a long way to go on a pretty faulty initial observation.
Interspecies communication is not at all unique to humans on this planet...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interspecies_communication
I saw video of a lion and crocodile playing tug of war with a gazelle.
That was cool.
...some exo-civilizations might become aware of the unsustainability of their superlinear trajectory. In order to avoid impending collapse, such alien civilizations would engage in "homeostatic awakenings" in which they choose to transcend the pursuit of unbounded growth.
It's always death panels with these people.
Based on zero actual observations of alien civilizations.
More bullshit fake science pulled out of someone's ass.
I had that thought as well. It’s not like they stumbled on a Vulcan survey team and got them to answer a bunch of questions.
Huh.
Testing everyone everytime they came to the office didn't work?
You'd think rectal thermometers wouldn't wear out so fast.
OK.
Alien life exists and is pervasive throughout the universe. The catch is it is libertarian. It does exist, but there are no civilizations or roads and everybody is either racist bigots who have muted everyone and whom everyone else has muted, or illegal immigrants who are universally unidentifiable and who, universally, no comprende. Universal background radiation is just misinformation.
Do I send my grant application to Reason or mail it to Charles Koch directly?
If faster than light travel is impossible than chances are we will only meet aliens in our delusions.
If you could travel faster than light wouldn't you also be time traveling?
Like I told you tomorrow, no.
The upshot, according to Wong and Bartlett, is that "unbounded growth will occur, leading to infinite population (and hence infinite demand on resources) in a finite time. If such a 'singularity' is approached unchecked, the system will eventually exceed its energy supply and collapse (or significantly regress)."
This is Malthus all over. It was nonsense when he came up with it and still is.
It’s also bizarre because resource constraints would be the primary drivers behind leaving home quickly and moving out first into the oort clouds and then to other stars.
the universe is actually quite young and only relatively recently reached the current stage of star formation that creates the heavier elements needed for life.
Humans are the first ones in our neighborhood. That's it. That's the answer to Fermi's Paradox.
no malthusian fearmongering required.
Here's a good overview from a noted philosopher:
https://www.nickbostrom.com/extraterrestrial.pdf
Where do I sign up for some of that sweet grant money to theorize about UFOs? Hat's off to those guys, that's a great gig.
Whenever I hear someone talk about the "Fermi Paradox," I'm reminded of the quote from Edward Teller, who was part of the conversation. Teller reported that Fermi started with the following question:
> "How probable is it that within the next ten years we shall have clear evidence of a material object moving faster than light?"
Teller answered one in a million. According to Teller, Fermi's response was: "This is much too low. The probability is more like ten percent."
So here you have Fermi speculating -- in the 1950s -- that the probability of a physical object being found to move faster than light was 10% (in the next decade, no less). I would politely suggest that Fermi's computations about alien visits are off by roughly the same magnitude as his estimate that physical objects might exceed the speed of light.
But are ‘Fermi pancakes’ any good.
Fermi's brilliance is undoubted. Even Luis Alvarez was impressed at how Fermi found it easier to derive electrodynamics answers from the Maxwell equations than look them up. But I cannot recall Teller accusing Fermi of any such statement. And offhand comments dimly recalled as apocryphal stories are--even if real--a far cry from a calculation of probability based on assumptions and math. The Drake "equation" is likewise fantasy, albeit intriguing as fantasy goes. "Entanglement" emerged from an attempt by Einstein to disprove quantum theory, and best alleged results are on the order of a single particle at a time. Hoping is fun, but it's different from knowing.
Oh, "homeostatic", not "homoerotic". Something else.
I was gonna "fag" you comment here ass being TOTALLY objectionable, butt I though better of it! Innocent ignorance is to be EDUMACATED away, rather than condemned and cancelled!
So here ya go!!!
Recall the gay Canadian airline steward way back when, who spread (just then “going viral”, literally) AIDS all over the place? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ga%C3%ABtan_Dugas … Kaposi’s sarcoma spread all over the place… (As a prominent sign of the new mystery disease).
Terry Brazier (see https://reason.com/2019/08/23/brickbat-the-first-cut-is-the-deepest-2/ ), now, HE, with his REAL stitches with his sewed-back-on hoodie… Especially if they add some small, tasteful golden Frankenstein-style bolts to it ass well, for swank nudist Halloweiner Parties… He will have a SWANKER WANKER than ALL the rest! Butt no, sorry, I will ***NOT*** be his SWANKER WANKER YANKER!!!
Well anyway, hopefully Terry Brazier will NOT be the starring attraction for a bunch of young fan boys, who might otherwise become the spreaders at the nexus of the next AIDS-like horror, known as SWANKER WANKER YANKER CHANCRE!!!
Greedy capitalists as usual will crank out new drugs to cure it, at VASTLY inflated expenses, backed up by their bankers, so then we’ll have SWANKER WANKER YANKER CHANCRE drug-CRANKER BANKERS!!! Riots in the streets, from the anti-1% folks, I’m a-tellin’ ya!!!
Many newscasters will take the side of the bankers… But one of these newscasters will be caught by a mob of angry anti-1% rioters, some of whom will proceed to PUNISH the newscasters… Said punishment-dishers-outers will be known as…
SWANKER WANKER YANKER CHANCRE pro-drug-CRANKER-BANKER-ANCHOR SPANKERS!
There will be those who are squeamish about personal punitive violence, but who still secretly support those with less such squeamishness. When no one is looking or listening, they will privately utter their support of the punitive, anti-gay and anti-banking ones. These more shy and secretive supporters of such things will be known as…
SWANKER WANKER YANKER CHANCRE pro-drug-CRANKER-BANKER-ANCHOR SPANKER THANKERS!
There will inevitably be those who will want to play gay hanky-panky with those who semi-secretly oppose the pro-gay bankers and anchors in this case, as a method of embarrassing them. Gay passes will be made! Gay hanky-panky will be attempted! Such prospective unwanted-gay-pass-makes will be known as “hanker-pankers”. The recipients of such unwanted passes will be tempted to SPANK the makers of unwanted passes! They will be known as…
SWANKER WANKER YANKER CHANCRE pro-drug-CRANKER-BANKER-ANCHOR SPANKER THANKER HANKER-PANKER SPANKERS!
Can’t it be both?
Good god, that analysis is the kind of economically ignorant drivel we have come to expect from self congratulatory Marxist progressive academics.
So... I for one eagerly await Noy-Soy-Toy-Boy's MOST Expertly Data-Driven Exposition Upon the Economic Affairs of Non-Human Space Aliens!
(Please fill in the blank... ____________________ )
I don’t engage in idle speculation about the economic affairs of space aliens because we have no data on which to base it.
Wild, unfounded speculation masquerading as science is the domain of the kind of ideologies you like: fascism, Marxism, etc.
"Good god, that analysis is the kind of economically ignorant drivel..." THIS is what you wrote about the above article, while you admit you know NOTHING about the economic affairs of space aliens! Sounds pretty harsh to me, coming from a know-nothing!
Humility is a MUCH underappreciated virtue! See this: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/12/27/army-has-introduced-new-leadership-value-heres-why-it-matters.html Even in a supposedly “proud” profession, wise leaders treasure humility!
Humility... Try it some time!
That is correct: I reject bad science and bad economics. I don’t speculate about what aliens do/don’t do. Sorry if the difference is too hard for you to grasp.
I don’t give a fuck about what militaristic leadership qualities little Nazis like you admire.
This almost sounds like a couple of people (ok, geeks) playing dungeon and dragons!
It is a bit of a misconception to apply the mathematical concept of "infinity" to outcomes in reality as the article does. While "infinity" is a very useful concept in mathematics, just like complex numbers, real numbers, e, pi, etc., they are just concepts. They can be extremely handy in sometimes predicting (or, modeling) reality, but it can be folly to confuse them with reality itself.
The theory of superlinear scaling must specifically predict outcomes that are actually measured in application to actual human population growth and movement. Until then, it is a theory on the same bookshelf as "dark energy" and many others: possibly useful, but, to be a bit cynical, let's not commit taxpayer money based on its predictions.
So... Can you tell me if the universe is finite or infinite? In space or in time? I suspect that no human can, with certainty! So to call "infinity" a misconception here seems kinda presumptuous!
We've already determined it's a simulation.
The blue checks on Twitter gave gone kind of insane since the Texas shooting. Cruz caused it. Abortion restrictions mean more kids to shoot. Just complete crazy shit.
And I’m sure the only possible solution is to confiscate all firearms and disband the GOP, right? I wonder if this time it will be some pro infanticide nut who decided to perform ‘retroactive abortions’.
So, they go all Star Trek "Insurrection"? (Wicked advanced tech, but deciding to just stay in one place and smell the roses.)
Sorry, but the hypothesis sounds like the typical lefty noise about conservation, which all has a punchline that runs along the lines of "if humans would get out of the way, everything would be just fine and the bunnies and wolves will all happily live together".
Nice try, and maybe I'm wrong, but who funded this paper?
Or the indication of early emergence of life in Earth's history is misleading, and we really are alone after all.
1. Its not really a *study*, is it? Because there's nothing to study. We have only one example.
2. I hope there's more to the paper because it seems to be ignoring resources within the civilization's star system that aren't on the 'planet-city' themselves. There's a whole lot of Solar System colonization left for us and at some point it becomes trivially easy to send a colonization ship out.
I guess this could include system colonization - again though, once you're on that scale, the wealth and energy your civilization can control make a colony ship a fairly trivial percentage of GDP.
You don’t need to make a colony ship at all. Once you are able to colonize a system out to the Oort Cloud, stellar motion and galactic rotation means that the rest of the galaxy comes to you. You can leisurely hop from rock to rock. If you want to speed things up a little, you can perturb your current colony’s orbit a little to move into a neighboring hill sphere or become unbound.
If you're really ambitious, you just turn your star into an engine and go where you want without waiting for things to come to you.
Why bother, though? Just on its natural galactic orbit, the sun encounters many other star systems. Basically, you get the option to skip to another star’s Oort Cloud once every 10000 years, requiring no extra effort or risk, and the process repeats from there, a rapidly growing expansion wave.
Reducing an entire galaxy of possibilities into two outcomes suggest a whole lotta assumptions.
"They found that as cities get bigger, there are increasing returns with increasing size."
...
"Wong and Bartlett argue that the growth and increasing interconnection of data networks result essentially in a global city that is now characterized by superlinearity. The upshot, according to Wong and Bartlett, is that "unbounded growth will occur, leading to infinite population (and hence infinite demand on resources) in a finite time."
One little problem: Basically every city in human history has been a population sink, with reproduction rates below replacement. And the larger and denser the city, the lower the reproduction rate gets.
In fact, the "birth dearth", the fact that every Western nation is below replacement, is probably due to urbanization, and the export of anti-natal policies and values even to rural areas.
Growth, by definition, requires reproduction ABOVE replacement. The last thing anybody paying attention to empirical evidence would conclude is that urbanization leads to catastrophic growth.
They don't want to get covid and have to wear masks.
Fix Kaspersky Installation Error 27300
How, exactly, did they study alien civilizations without observing a single alien civilization?
This "study" is naught but a social sciences mutual masturbation session.
So how many of these civilizations has Bailey observed and measured? Only 10,000 nonbinary stars have been reached by the expanding bubble of commercial radio equal in energy to the Sun at those wavelengths. When the LP formed there were 1200 such stars with any chance of seeing our increase in radio emissions and replying instantly so that at lightspeed we'd only how be seeing their signals. The Voyager probe, travelling outwards since about that time, is only some 24 light-hours distant. The second-nearest star is 3500 times farther out.
"self-induced collapse" is assured if the Democrats stay in power.
Rarely have I been so disappointed by the actual contents of an article. It's just anti-humanists putting their spin on a popular speculative question to forward the notion we have to end human flourishing.
I would rather Humanity self destruct trying to reach the stars rather than we just laydown and wait for the sun to burn out.