Florida, Tennessee Ban Ranked-Choice Voting Despite Citizen Support
Politicians who benefit from divisive election politics resist reforms that threaten the status quo.

On Monday, Republican Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis signed a massive election bill into law that creates a special squad to investigate election fraud and crimes and increases some criminal penalties for some election-related violations.
But that's not all. Buried on page 25 of the 47-page bill is a complete ban on the use of ranked-choice voting anywhere in the state, regardless of what voters might want. In this case, it's the voters of Sarasota, who overwhelmingly decided in 2007 (with 77 percent in favor) to switch to this type of voting for local elections.
A similar ban was passed in February in Tennessee. There the target was the city of Memphis, where voters first decided they wanted ranked-choice voting back in 2008. The City Council itself resisted the change and attempted to get voters to repeal the system in 2018, but voters instead still chose to keep ranked-choice by 62 percent. Nevertheless, S.B. 1820 will stop Memphis (and any other municipality or county in Tennessee) from using ranked-choice voting to determine election results.
In Tennessee, the bill's sponsor, state Sen. Brian Kelsey (R–Germantown), made a typical claim by ranked-choice opponents—that it's a "very confusing and complex process that leads to lack of confidence." This is belied by the fact that voters keep choosing it when given the option to do so.
There's a lesson here on how some of the resistance to certain election reforms is actually about entrenched political interests protecting themselves from electoral consequences.
Ranked-choice voting is a system where voters don't just choose a single candidate over the others. Instead, voters are invited to rank candidates by preference. In a slate of five candidates, a voter can choose a favorite, then rank the rest as a second-choice, third-choice, et cetera.
When votes in this system are tabulated, a single candidate must receive a majority of the vote, not just the most votes, in order to win. If a single candidate doesn't surpass the 50 percent threshold, the candidate receiving the least number of votes is disqualified. Then the votes are retallied. For those who chose that last-place candidate as their first pick, instead their second choice is now their vote. The process repeats until a single candidate gets the most votes.
One of the stated goals for proponents of ranked-choice voting is to avoid a situation where, due to the size of the candidate pool, a person is declared a winner with just 30 percent of the vote or even less. Under the status quo, a candidate with polarizing positions that appeal to a small but committed group of voters can overcome the majority if votes get split among three, four, or more candidates.
Ranked-choice voting therefore also creates a system where third-party and independent candidates can have impact without voters having to worry about allegedly "throwing their vote away" or choosing a so-called "spoiler" who can't win but can draw votes away from a similar candidate. A voter can select a Libertarian Party or Green Party candidate or an independent candidate as their first choice. Then, the voter can select a more conventional Democrat or Republican candidate as the second choice, knowing that they can have their values reflected in initial results without losing their voice entirely.
FairVote, a nonpartisan organization pushing for election reforms, sees ranked-choice voting as a boon for voter participation and support of election outcomes. It views ranked-choice voting as a way of countering increasing polarization among both Democratic and Republican candidates: "America's constitutional system of governance is based on compromise. When polarization causes that to break down, policymaking can grind to a halt or swing wildly based on which party has majority control."
Unsurprisingly, politicians who benefit from a highly polarized environment wouldn't want an election system that encourages alternatives. Florida's politics these days can most certainly be described as "polarizing."
"There are some folks who benefit from divisive elections and the status quo," Deb Otis, a senior research analyst for FairVote, tells Reason. "Reforms will always have pockets of opposition."
And just because Republicans are behind the bans in Florida and Tennessee doesn't mean they're the only ones against ranked-choice. In New York City, establishment Democrats attempted to halt the implementation of ranked-choice voting in the mayor's race just last year. They failed, and Eric Adams eventually won with a majority of the vote after several rounds of tallies. Adams himself had spoken out against ranked-choice, claiming it would disenfranchise minority voters, even though the voters themselves (as in Sarasota and Memphis) overwhelmingly approved a referendum on it.
Despite the recent setbacks in Florida and Tennessee, Otis and FairVote are keeping a positive outlook and promoting the growth of adoptions of ranked-choice voting elsewhere. Maine pioneered ranked-choice voting in the U.S. for several state-level races (including governor and lawmakers), and a new bill will allow cities and towns to use the system for local races. In Utah, a Republican-sponsored bill signed into law by a Republican governor provided some technical tweak to its pilot program as ranked-choice voting continues to grow there. And Alaska will be using ranked-choice voting to replace Republican Rep. Don Young, who died in March.
"More and more cities are using ranked-choice voting," Otis says. "We continue to see voters like ranked-choice voting, understand it, and continue to elect candidates who have broad support."
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It views ranked-choice voting as a way of countering increasing polarization among both Democratic and Republican candidates: "America's constitutional system of governance is based on compromise. When polarization causes that to break down, policymaking can grind to a halt or swing wildly based on which party has majority control.
My main question here is, is this actually true? Results so far are pretty inconclusive. I'm still very curious why the bans? The evidence is not strong that this actually changes things that much, and so it's not a super reasonable move to consolidate power in the group. At the same time, they might THINK it is a big deal and ban it because they think it will help consolidate power. They can be wrong for wrong reasons.
They might also have some other reason.
That said, I continue to be open to other methodologies as well as continue to be against overly democratizing our society.
Here's a pretty good study. It suggest that there's some data that it fosters "inclusiveness" (defined by the study as 'women and candidates of color') but has far less conclusive evidence that anything changes. The study did look at numerous factors, such as voter attitudes towards RCV in addition to changes in candidate behavior (something I admit I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about). Most of my criticism is focused on voter behavior, not whether or not it will moderate candidate behavior.
Link.
Interesting. I did a quick scan of it, and it felt like awfully thin gruel.
That said, go ahead and do ranked choice. My issue isn't that I hate it, it's that I question it doing much at all. A lot of election reform seems to be based around the idea that everyone is vocally upset with the outcomes we've been getting in elections, which must mean something is wrong with elections. I'm pessimistic that twiddling the knobs will lead to changes outside the margins. At least in the general elections. I am fairly convinced of the arguments that the primary system changes have led to dumb stuff and we should go back to having parties choose their candidates rather than having elections to choose candidates.
The best democracies are defined by how little of the system is democratic.
The best democracies (or governments period) are the ones people don't have to think about every day.
The claims for IRV, which is branded as the only ranked voting system, are NOT TRUE. It does not find the true majority winner, as claimed. By DEFINITION in social choice theory (voting science) that candidate is determined by Condorcet's ranked voting system (which many of us are now calling Round Robin). IRV does not satisfy the "Condorcet Criteria". FairVote's claims describe Condorcet's system - not their own. Also, their claim that one can't waste a vote is false because IRV doesn't eliminate vote-splitting and the nasty non-monotonicity feature can cause the candidate you rank first to lose.
Read up on New York's primary and the 139K plus votes that were discarded through "exhaustion". The NYT wondered if these discards made a difference. It was actually MUCH WORSE since each elimination round discards more votes.
Ranked voting is just that "rank".
If it was a simple system, like three votes for a first choice, two for second choice, and one for the third, with the one getting the most number, winning, it might work.
But the way it is done, with a lower candidate's votes being added to higher ones, after the lower choice is eliminated, makes something like what happened in Oakland happen, where the one, who initially came in third, ended up the winner - and she was a terrible mayor.
"The people" like the idea, because they hate having to come back and vote in runoffs, which is what rank voting is intended to eliminate.
The key is what is done with preferences or ranks. What you are describing is Borda's ranked magnitude system. (Borda was a contemporary of Condorcet, BTW.) Typically if there are N candidates, a 1st place vote counts as N-1 while a last place vote counts as N-N or zero. Borda, unlike IRV, does count every vote but it is subject to the obvious strategy of burying unfavored candidates. Condorcet demonstrated mathematically that Borda would not always find the True Majority Winner.
Because of strategic voting, Borda is generally a lousy choice for a ranked system, though the NCAA uses it to rank college sports teams on the supposition that the "voters" will always be honest.
When I read the above study, I learned the term "Condorcet".
My complaints against RCV were primarily from the voter's point of view. But there are other factors that I admit I'm not taking into account. One factor (which I admit above) is behavior and attitudes of candidates running in an established RCV system. Another one (cited in the study above) is the complexities of voters sometimes NOT choosing secondary candidates at all, while other groups of voters do.
Read the study above, it's pretty comprehensive.
It's important to understand that IRV, thanks to discard, is subject to the non-monotonicity (that is, "rank reversal paradox"). As voters start to become aware of this, the correct "strategy" is to vote for ONLY their favorite. This is known as "preference truncation". I've mentioned it elsewhere and I also note it in my video. Australia dealt with this ages ago by requiring that EVERY CANDIDATE on the ballot must be ranked. This, plus the fine attached to not voting produces what is called "donkey voting". Look it up.
The legislation does indeed appear to prohibit ranked choice voting in just about all government elections in Florida.
I was concerned that the opponents of the bill might have been conflating ranked-choice voting in a general election, with the ridiculous 'jungle primary' crap that Democrats have instituted in Cities like St. Louis and states like California.
I'm generally not opposed to ranked choice voting in a general election - provided that voters have the choice to vote for all or one or none or as many of the candidates as they wish. But what they've done in Democrat strongholds to further cement one-party rule is a disgrace.
Look at the vote count in California - about one quarter of those who vote for President don't vote for the other ballot positions. Why pick between Democrats if you aren't one?
The true meaning of democracy - rule by Democrats.
What's more likely is that one quarter of the ballots, marked for president, don't have any other ballot positions checked off, because that would be too much work for the cheaters, that you have to expect in a LieCheatSteal party dominated state.
Where one party is dominant, a change in voting system won't change their dominance. What a top-2 system like California's that begins with all candidates (regardless of party) in one vote does is allow some choice by those who aren't in the dominant party, by choosing between the top 2 of the dominant party in a single runoff. It's not as good as IRV in most respects, although it does provide for an election campaign after all but 2 candidates are eliminated and voters have a better chance of having presented to them the differences between those 2 candidates.
People ask what good it does for Republican voters to choose between 2 Democrats. The answer is that it does them no less good, and sometimes more than having to vote in the general election for either a Republican who can't win or a Democrat they had no say in choosing.
California's system is a one round runoff - IRV is sequential. However, as I've pointed out elsewhere it is not much better and it functions by throwing legitimate votes away.
No, this is IRV, which throws votes away. If it were Condorcet's Round Robin system, it would actually function the way FairVote claims.
You'll find that IRV in Australia does allow some minor parties to exist but the country has largely functioned as a two-party state for nearly a century.
When FairVote talks about Ranked Choice they are talking about IRV. When they describe what IRV does, they are actually talking about Condorcet.
This is math. In my youtube video (I posted the link below) I show this. Nothing controversial here. The only controversy stems from the confusion generated by FairVote.
But if you are presented with a large choice of declared candidates, the number of binary choices you have to make can quickly become astronomic, and if you want to write someone in, that just multiplies them again. With IRV you need make only as many choices as you want. No preferences beyond your second choice? Fine, with IRV you can stop after making those 2 picks. Or 1. Or 3. Whatever. With a round robin system, you have to specify every choice.
The simplicity of IRV, or approval, or even STV, for the voter is a more important consideration than whatever Condorcet offers in the multi-candidate elections where they count the most.
The ballots for Round Robin and IRV are IDENTICAL. The ALGORITHM IS DIFFERENT. The algorithm is, so to speak, under the hood and invisible to the voter. However, voters are screwed by the IRV algorithm. Please watch the video. I explain all of this. Moreover, IRV is actually much more complex in operation because there is no way to exploit parallelism in the tally, thanks to the fact that IRV MUST BE TALLIED AT A CENTRAL LOCATION. Lots of opportunity for hanky-panky.
Even with 10 candidates (which results in 45 head-to-head match-ups) the 10x10 matrix can be easily populated by hand at the precinct level. Watch the video. IRV has proven to take a long time to tally because of discard. Absent a power failure, computers handle tabulations very fast. The logistics of IRV makes it slow, which is something we've already seen where it is being used in the US. And, if there were a hack attack that took out the grid, Round Robin will be MUCH faster and less prone to error and cheating.
Good.
Unless all voters are required to rank every candidate when they vote (from first to last choice), and unless one candidate receives fewer than 50% of votes, ranked choice voting would always require governments to make new ballets and require voters to vote a second time (and perhaps three, four or more times), which would likely discourage voters from voting a second or a third time.
If a registered voter missed the first election vote, would they be eligible to cast votes in the second or third votes? If a registered voter voted in the first election, but not the second, would their vote from the first be counted in the second round?
And what about primary elections? Shouldn't the major parties be able to decide if they want ranked choice voting in their own primary, and not have voters in the other party decide?
Seems like ranked choice voting introduces far more problems than it portends to resolve.
Voters rank the candidates when they vote and only do it once.
Correct. IRV emulates a sequential runoff election. However, a runoff is really an iterative plurality election. The problem is that plurality, by its nature, succumbs to split-vote problems AND it will almost always only find the TRUE MAJORITY WINNER if that candidate is in the top two in terms of 1st place votes. IRV does NOT satisfy the Condorcet Criteria. Why this isn't taught in school - particularly in Political Science amazes me.
Say what? That's not how ranked-choice voting works at all.
Consider an election with 5 candidates - Alison, Ben, Charles, Denise and Edgar. A conventional ballot will list the five names with a check box next to each one where you mark your preferred candidate.
A ranked-choice ballot lists the same five names but instead of a check-box, you get a line where you write the number of your preference (or some other means of indicating your preference) for as many of the candidates as you want to rank. Printing and voting are nearly identical.
Most importantly, you only hold the one election. (The scenario you're worried about is actually a problem for traditional elections where run-offs are often needed. That whole problem goes away with ranked-choice voting. That's why it's sometimes called instant-runoff voting.) The difference is in how you tally the votes.
In a traditional election, you tally the votes, see that Alison has more than anyone else and declare the winner even though Alison only had 21% of the total and the other 79% want absolutely anyone over her. Unless, of course, you're in a jurisdiction that requires a majority (or a bigger margin) before you can declare a winner. Then you have to hold a physical (and expensive) run-off election.
In a ranked choice election, you tally the votes, see that no one is greater than 50%, cross off Edgar (the candidate with the fewest votes), then re-tally the results, this time using the second choices of anyone who'd put Edgar as their first choice. Keep going until you get a majority winner. It probably won't be the majority's first choice but it will never be the majority's last choice.
No, it is the ranked system known as IRV. That's the one that throws votes away and often doesn't find the actual majority winner.
The IRV people have done a wonder job confusing people.
Rossami....great explanation.
I have to tell you, I much prefer actual enumeration (your traditional election). That seems more in keeping with constitutional tradition. At least, to me.
I thought the point of Ranked Choice was that it automatically handles runoffs, so you don't need to have another election later.
that's correct. Elections are not continuously held until there's a winner. You just keep recounting the votes until you determine a winner, knocking off the lowest vote getter each time.
Correct. This is done by throwing legitimate votes away during each round.
BTW, I'm running for Indiana Secretary of State on precisely this issue.
Then you should lose, badly.
In New York ranked voting has caused the person with the 3rd or 4th most "1st place votes" to win elections. Is that really the system that best chooses who people want to elect?
It saves the crazy kooks in 4th place all the trouble of having to rush to the extreme in the primary only to have to race back to the middle in the general election. They don't have to pretend to be moderates. Much better that way.
Ranked-choice voting does not guarantee that you'll get the most-liked person as the winner. Ranked-choice instead guarantees that the person the majority dislikes will never win.
It may not be the best of all possible systems but it has some distinct advantages over mere plurality voting.
Except,in your example,no one had majority support and and Edgar's voters get their second choice and no else does. Which Means some people's vote will count for more than others. Maybe an Alison voter used early voting to vote for her and since found out that emails on her son's laptop show that he was using her influence to get cushy jobs and her bribes. The Alison voter can't change their vote in ranked voting, but Edgar's voter's get two bites of the apple. In a runoff, both would have had to make an effort to vote again. You can"t assume that everyone's vote in a runoff off would be the same as the original vote.
No, not at all. Edgar's voters no more get "two bites at the apple" than if you hold a traditional run-off election without Edgar. The ranked-choice-voting is simply instant run-offs.
And, yes, Alison's voters have no opportunity to change their minds based on new information - but neither do Edgar's. It's instant. Which means yes we can assume that everyone's vote in the run-off will be the same as their original vote.
Ranked-choice instead guarantees that the person the majority dislikes will never win.
^Assumes voters didn't vote against Hillary.
Same with approval voting.
It might be but IRV is not the correct approach. In the video I show that when Candidate A goes against Candidate C in a conventional election, C wins by 7 to 5. If A doesn't run and, instead, B goes against C, C beats B by 8 to 4. However, when all three run against each other, split vote results in A getting 5 votes, B getting 4 votes, and C getting 3 and being eliminated. Something like this actually was demonstrated to have happened in Louisiana's runoff primary in 1991, where the true winner was immediately knocked off. IRV will emulate that same WRONG result by using its ILLEGAL (if anyone every bothers to explain what is actually going on) discard method.
That's what the "instant" in Instant Runoff Voting is about.
Just another GOP law to restrict freedom. Add up the number of new laws passed by what used to be a party of small government over the past 5 years. Awful.
Never-mind the GOP law your using is a measure to prevent election fraud.. Limiting Government must surely only mean -- doing nothing about criminal/fraudulent acts.
Yeah the Republicans are the ones who just created a literal Ministry of Truth at the DHS. Wait, it was Biden, nemmind.
You missed the part of the article that talks about the Ds trying to do exactly the same thing in jurisdictions where they're in charge?
I'll grant you that the Rs have basically abandoned the 'small government' plank of their platform and that's lamentable. But that doesn't make the Ds any better.
Considering the D's just formed a ministry of truth at the DHS, they are much, much worse!
How does this restrict freedom?
By enshrining the spoiler effect to frighten voters into checking the box of the perceived lesser of two evil, stupid, major party candidates and shy away from alternatives. Engineering an election system to deny voters the opportunity to express their actual preferences is a denial of political freedom.
First-past-the-post plurality is objectively terrible, when compared with more representative voting systems, especially RCV (IRV/STV).
>> used to be a party of small government
they lied to everyone about that.
If the same law were applied to Condorcet, then it would be restrictive. However, IRV's discard is throwing legitimate votes away. It arguably is illegal.
Under the status quo, a candidate with polarizing positions that appeal to a small but committed group of voters can overcome the majority if votes get split among three, four, or more candidates.
I'm not convinced that's true... at all. It seems, based on the real world results of many elections I've watched, the candidate with small but committed groups of voters fails to overcome the majority, and instead kills the erstwhile winner in favor of another relatively mainstream candidate of the opposition. Ie, Ross Perot causes George HW Bush to lose, tilting the election to Bill Clinton. Or Ralph Nader causes Al Gore to lose, tilting the election to George W. Bush in 2000.
Arguably, Bush would have won in 1992 with RCV, and there's a decent chance Al Gore would have been president in 2000 .
I suspect it's popular among voters because they feel weary of feeling like they're 'wasting' their vote. With RCV, the fear of wasting your vote goes by the wayside.
Yeah, I'll vote for Ross Perot, but Bush is my 2nd choice because I don't want that weed-smoker Clinton in the White House.
Yeah, I'll vote for Ralph Nader, but Gore is my second choice because I don't want that half-baked Bush idiot who can't put a sentence together in the White House.
Of course that's going to be popular with the general electorate.
I'm not convinced that's true... at all.
Same. I'm beginning to believe that RCV is between a fool's dream and smoke screen. That's not to say that I favor banning it, especially in local elections, but for much beyond that, implementing RCV would require some rather... Constitutionally questionable... changes. For instance, you say, "Arguably, Bush would have won in 1992 with RCV, and there's a decent chance Al Gore would have been president in 2000" but, in order for that to be true (voting complexity and hanging chad jokes aside), the EC would effectively re-reduce RCV back to winner-take-all. Unless the EC is converted to RCV as well, which, arguably, defeats the purpose of the EC.
Other than that, it comes across as a bunch of meaningless number crunching.
Other than that, it comes across as a bunch of meaningless number crunching.
Especially given immigration and census fudging, gerrymandering, electoral fraud (even at the 'not enough to change the outcome' level), etc., my confidence that RCV will "fix" either the two party or the electoral system is indistinguishable from zero and my confidence that it will fix both is proportionally less.
@26:39 Some comments at the reflection bench cogent to the Wikipdia article.
941... 491... so they transposed some numbers. CASES ARE GOING UP!!!11!
Hand copy with no error checking into Wikipedia. It's not like this is being recorded for all of prosperity or shared around the world or anything.
If you poke at the issue, you find that RCV advocates are also 'abolish the EC' advocates.
And generally have little use for the Constitution.
That's what I mean. I'm sure there are legions of people suffering the false "More choice = more betterer" (synonymous with "More false choice = more betterer") delusion (Boehm's 'I won't vote because my vote doesn't matter but, if it did matter, I'd vote on principle for Biden.' nonsense comes to mind) and at least some portion are concerted "If we have to abolish the EC to get RCV, so be it. As long as it's flyover country getting fucked who cares." and at least some smaller fraction that are in the "We need to abolish the EC and adopt RCV so we can fuck flyover country."
Not at all. I think ranked-choice voting is great. I am also a defender of the Electoral College. The two positions are not incompatible.
My only preferred reform for the Electoral College is proportional allocation of electors (as most states still do and Maine and Nebraska still do) rather than winner-take-all of a state's electors.
That should have been "as most states used to do and as ME and NE still do".
Can we please have an edit button?
So you've got a defense prepared when the 3rd ranking EC candidate and 4th most popular candidate wins? Other than 'the government is gonna government' and 'third place ranked voting democracy is what we do together'?
I am also a defender of the Electoral College. The two positions are not incompatible.
And I didn't say they weren't compatible. I'm just pointing out that the talk of RCV fixing things is like talking about how polishing the injection ports on your late '78 AMC Pacer is going to fix it.
...or an edit button is going to fix Reason's unprincipled, unreasonable optimism about anything and everything.
Arguably, Bush would have won in 1992 with RCV, and there's a decent chance Al Gore would have been president in 2000 .
If Bush won in 92, Gore would have been a footnote by 2000.
"With RCV, the fear of wasting your vote goes by the wayside."
Instead, you have the reality of not voting because there are no choices with your political philosophy.
Citation: California.
That's Rank Choice Voting.
Gore would have likely won with either IRV or Condorcet's Round Robin. IRV will discard minor candidates and give split votes to the major candidate - in this case it would have been Nader in Florida. However, IRV starts to break down as more serious candidates with greater support appear. This is why IRV hasn't delivered in Australia.
Round Robin, unlike IRV, offers no real strategic voting possibility. You might want to look up "Preference Truncation" as a strategy with IRV.
One thing not mentioned in the article is that ranked choice voting saves the taxpayers the expense of runoff elections.
Not a big deal; Zuckerberg will pay for the runoff too.
Except, in most jurisdictions there are no runoffs anyway, just plurality wins.
Plurality voting—also known as “winner-take-all, or “first-past-the-post” in England—is the most common form of voting in the United States. In this system, voters select one candidate per race and the candidate with the most votes wins. If the candidate field is large, the winner can be elected by less than 50 percent of the vote (and certainly with no mandate).
That’s a good thing, I don’t want the elected to have a “ mandate”. The less power they have, the better.
If the candidate field is large, the winner can be elected by less than 50 percent of the vote (and certainly with no mandate).
Just imagine how much less mandated things will be when we wind up with the guy who wasn't the first, or second, or third most popular choice.
The US will become a pseudo-democratic utopia. Like the EU.
But Round Robin DOES FIND THE TRUE MAJORITY WINNER. This is the candidate who beats every other candidate head-to-head. Condorcet's system is the one where the candidate who has the most support in reality can be found. IRV doesn't do this.
Again, I'm not opposed to RCV/Round Robin voting and agree with you that IRV is wrong.
I'm saying that our current, flawed system creates and created all kinds of 'mandates', 'pen and phone', judicial and congressional deference, that RCV, of any flavor, doesn't dispel and even, when cached in "TRUE MAJORITY WINNER" talk, reinforces the ideas.
Of course, you are correct that our "administrative state" operated to an unelected bureaucracy in the Executive Branch is the major problem we face. I am convinced that the beginning of the solution is the introduction of an "evolutionary" voting system that will begin to break up the "duopoly" of two statist parties. We know that the "Nash Equilibrium Strategy" in plurality voting gave us the two-party system. We can and will evolve away from this with Round Robin. We have the historical example of the Venetian Republic avoiding permanent two-party factionalism by using a form of Approval Voting for over 500 years. Round Robin is a better system but should do just as well. I'm trying to start here in Indiana. One must start somewhere. I welcome anyone who has a better solution but I've given this a lot of thought over the past 25 years and haven't found one.
Presidents routinely get elected that have lost the “popular” vote.
Never has a third place finisher won both the popular and the EC vote. Not only does RCV make that a possibility, it's rather explicitly the aim.
They have the same power, just no mandate. They simply say "fuck you" to the majority.
Couldn't wait to straighten out the author with succinct counter points.
Oh, wait; it's Scott. Nevermind.
dude if you want to vote for three things at once get a triple cone @31 Flavors
Mr. Shackford - you really should read my frequent responses to your pushing Instant Runoff Voting (IRV), which is ONLY ONE TYPE OF RANKED VOTING. It is also the worst. The bill you cited actually describes IRV, which does sequentially eliminate candidates. It does this by declaring rankings that are not 1st place as PROVISIONAL which then allows them to NOT BE COUNTED. This is almost certainly illegal in most states. I explain this in my Youtube video, which can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btDyhNiTfeM
I show that IRV throws votes away. I explain that this is illegal and almost certainly violates long established constitutional principles that every legitimate vote must count. Section 2 of the 14th Amendment is explicit.
I encourage others to look at this video and, if nothing else, perhaps get Mr. Shackford to watch it as well. IRV is a non-reform. Correct is to use Condorcet's ranked Round Robin voting system.
But everyone does get a 1st vote in IRV. Every voter's vote is counted. You're confusing matters by giving every "vote" agency, rather than every voter.
Watch the video. Everyone gets their 1st vote. Subsequent votes are thrown away. IRV people say, no votes are thrown away because those lower rankings are PROVISIONAL. This is just sophistry. ALL RANKINGS ARE NOT COUNTED WITH IRV. How can a system that throws most of the voter preference information be any good? Think about it. ALL VOTER PREFERENCE MUST BE COUNTED. Explain how this can possibly be a bad thing.
Approval Voting (voting for one or more candidates that you approve of) is easier for voters to understand AND doesn't require new voting machines AND is much better than Plurality Voting. That said, if the people want RCV, it is also much better than our current method.
Approval Voting is second best. I even talk about it briefly in the video. AV is vastly superior to IRV. I'd recommend Bram's and Fishburn's 1983 book (there is now a 2nd Edition from 2007) which is a math-heavy analysis. BTW, it uses the term "Condorcet Criteria" quite liberally. IRV does not satisfy the Condorcet Criteria.
Mr. Shackford and others: please actually study this.
The link is false. I wouldn't be surprised if it describes Condorcet. FairVote lives by confusion.
…. regardless of what voters might want. In this case, it's the voters of Sarasota, who overwhelmingly decided in 2007 (with 77 percent in favor) to switch to this type of voting for local elections.
Scott, you can not have it both ways. Americans reject homosexuals, gay marriage and gay adoption. You protest Americans who protest us. Either the people know what is good for the country, their states, their neighborhoods, or they need to be bitched slapped. Cmon, show some intellectual depth. You're making gay men look stupid and fickle.
Well, yeah, Florida. No surprise there. Kulturwar is about attacking Disney, not meaningful electoral reform.
It's a good move. People in Florida are too stupid to rank candidates.
I commend to you all Kenneth Arrow's Impossibility Theorem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem
Basically, no normal voting system whether first-past-the-post or ranked choice with three or more candidates will always be fair or consistent. (RTFA)
IIRC in a chapter of a William Poundstone book, I forget which, where he discusses this, he mentions that the American Mathematical Society adopted a system that was the easiest system closest to fair. You can give each candidate you like 1 vote. This violates the "one man one vote" idea - which is not after all in the US constitution. But it does produce reasonably fair outcomes *and* allows you to vote for "anyone but X".
This would seem to defeat anti-RCV legislation.
BTW had *any* of you come across the Arrow theorem before?
It violates one-man-one-vote only if you construe "vote" to mean each one of those approval numbers. When a voter (one man) marks every candidate s/he approves, that document or process is the voter's "one vote". The check mark each approved candidate gets is not the vote.
Quite familiar with Arrow who concludes that dictatorship is the only "perfect" system. I suppose we also assume that math with natural numbers must be eschewed thanks to Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem.
I for one do not want to live in some perfect system without elections run by unelected technocrats.
Condorcet/Round Robin is the best system. I also argue that the Mini-max completion (or tie-break) method is best because it is simplest to implement, particularly if a Colonial Pipeline style cyber-attack were to take out a large chunk of the electrical grid on election day.
But, and supporting Arrow, Condorcet may be intransitive. A can beat B who can beat C who can beat A. The system used by the AMS I described is also somewhat simpler to implement (and to program).
I wonder about a system where each voter gets (n-1) votes (or "checks") for an election with n candidates and they can cast those votes however they wish - all to one, 2 to one and 1 to another, etc. I can't recall now whether I'd ever come across this.
Addendum: What you are describing is Approval Voting. Brams and Fishburn go into all this in excruciating mathematical detail. I actually corresponded with Brams when I ran the first time for Secretary of State as a Libertarian. Approval voting is SECOND BEST to Condorcet's System. Let me emphasize, Condorcet's System it the one against which all other systems are evaluated. The book on AV is really required reading. Unfortunately, it is ridiculously expensive on Amazon, though I think the electronic version is not so bad pricewise.
Also, I will note that Arrow's 1951 graduate thesis, for which he ultimately won the Swedish Bank Prize (sometimes called the Nobel in Economics) has plenty of critics relative to practical, real world considerations.
The whole idea is dumb, and yes, too complicated. In my business, we have a saying: Complexity kills. Robust, trustworthy designs are either fundamentally simple or constructed from multiples of simple components. This is true both in the physical world and in the world of the mind.
Compare the Ten Commandments to the IRS Tax Code and Regulations, and you tell me which one is more robust and trustworthy.
It's not that complicated. "Rank these candidates in the order you prefer". And recall the line, attrib to Einstein, "things should be made as simple as possible but not simpler".
You can't compare 10C with the IRS tax code, because the purposes are so radically different. But the 10C cannot stand by themselves because there are ambiguities - for example, does it say that there are no other gods, or that no other gods are to be worshipped? Is it, "other gods" or "the gods of others"? Is fraud included in "do not steal"? Which version of 10C is to be observed, the one in Exodus or the one in Deuteronomy? They're similar but not the same.
The 10C themselves may be simple as words, but they're hardly robust. She'ol/Hell, Christians and Jews can't even agree on what is the first commandment!
Oh, it's "not complicated" -- unless someone doesn't win a majority, then it is. Ironically, that's the very scenario the method is purported to address. That's the very point at which it becomes too hard for people to follow, which is exactly the opposite of what you want in a voting scheme.
The problem with ranked choice voting is not its complexity, but that it gives some voters a second chance to vote, note all - at least as it is structured in Maine, and had been proposed in Massachusetts.
Now, if everyone gets (for example) 5 votes to spend any way they want, and can note 5 x for A, or 1 x for each candidate or anything in between, then it could be ok. But, as structured, it truly is not fair.
If the backers of "Ranked Choice" voting were honest, they'd admit that it's really "Instant Runoff Voting", but since that's been proven (in Australia etc) to produce a two-party duopoly as bad or worse than America's FPP system, backers obfuscate.
There actually is a ranked-choice ballot method that is good -- It's called "Condorcet's Method" or "Instant Round Robin Voting" (IRRV). The same ballot is used, but instead of looking only at 1st-choice votes before eliminating someone who failed at polarization, Condorcet looks at all votes, which scares the Hell out of candidates accustomed to gaining 1st-place votes at the expense of alienating others.
So I'm not sorry to see "Ranked Choice" voting banned anywhere, but I hope that states like Florida will leave the door open to actual good methods like IRRV (2 R's) and Approval Voting.
I may be wrong here, but it really appears to me that it is the Republican party that is most opposed to RCV. I think the idea of giving voters more power is terrifying to Republicans as well as many of the commenters here. They want a locked-up election, here are your choices, pick one or don't vote.