Trans

Missouri Lawmakers Suggest Infantilizing Trans Adults and Depriving Them of Treatment Until Age 25

Another proposed ban shows the true motivations of the culture war.

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Missouri is considering legislation to ban trans medical treatments for minors, and lawmakers and one psychologist who testified at a hearing last week suggested forcing even legal adults to wait until they're 25 years old.

The Hill took note of that suggestion from a Thursday hearing for H.B. 2649, but to be clear, the bill as it stands would not prohibit trans adults from getting any form of medical treatment or therapy. Much like similar bills passed in Alabama and Arkansas, it prohibits any sort of "gender transition procedures" being offered to anybody under the age of 18, with exceptions for those with verified genetic disorders and an exception for treatment for "any infection, injury, disease, or disorder that has been caused by or exacerbated by the performance of gender transition procedures."

Nowhere in the bill does it consider the rights of parents, the expertise of medical professionals, or the desires of the minors, in any way. Like other bills of this type, H.B. 2649 is culture war fodder that dismisses individual liberty out of fear of trans ideological contagion. The bill is named the "Missouri Save Adolescents from Experimentation (SAFE) Act," not so subtly suggesting what the bill's sponsor, Rep. Suzie Pollock (R–Lebanon), thinks of trans medical treatment.

In case it's not clear, Pollock has also introduced a companion bill that would change the state's medical malpractice laws to allow extra time for a lawsuit for treatments for gender dysphoria. Missouri law gives a two-year window for medical malpractice suits, but Pollock's bill would allow a person who received trans medical treatments until the age of 28 to sue. It would also mandate that before anybody (even a consenting adult) can get medical trans treatment, they must be provided with the latest research on detransitioners (those who return to their birth sex), data on "satisfaction rates" of various types of gender treatments, and information on potential therapeutic, nonmedical approaches.

In case it's still not clear, here's a direct quote from Pollock from Thursday's hearing: "These drugs can sterilize children and never allow them to experience an orgasm. Do you want to do that to a child, do you want to strip them of that? If they go all the way through it, they are never content. [emphasis added] People who are fully trans, they don't have normal sexual function." This isn't about ascertaining whether a child is truly trans before providing him or her access to medical transition treatment. This is a complete rejection of the validity of using medical treatment to resolve trans issues.

It is very tempting to see bills like this as a response to the very real concerns that teens and kids who are questioning their gender identities are being pushed by adults with their own agendas into rushing into medical treatments with long-term or irreversible effects. But this bill isn't an expression of concern; it's an application of political power over a small group of people. It is a war between two polarizing agendas with trans kids and their families trapped in the middle and with strangers on both sides screaming that kids' lives are at stake if they make the wrong choice—and the wrong choice is, of course, whatever the other side is proposing.

The suggestion from conservative quarters that adults should perhaps have to wait until 25 for medical treatment is just a skewed version of progressive attempts to infantilize young adults by raising the smoking age to 21 or stopping them from buying guns until they are 21. It makes a mockery of the idea of self-ownership. And it undermines claims that this anti-trans legislation is about protecting impressionable kids from rashly disrupting puberty.

If there's any doubt these bills are about dismissing trans medicine entirely, take a look at who was brought in for the hearing: a psychologist named Laurie Haynes. St. Louis' NBC affiliate KSDK describes her simply as a board member of the neutral-sounding International Federation for Therapeutic and Counseling Choice (IFTCC). The story notes that at one point Haynes does mention during the hearing that she supports conversion therapy, the practice of attempting to "cure" somebody of homosexual or trans feelings.

To be clear, conversion therapy is the entirety of what the IFTCC stands for. This vaguely-named U.K.-based organization's primary goal is to lobby in favor of conversion therapy not just for trans folks but also for gay and lesbian people. This is not a neutral organization operating out of concern for youths who incorrectly or rashly conclude they're trans and start medical treatment early. This is a group that believes that even those who are gay or trans can be "cured" of these urges and exists to lobby against legal bans against conversion therapy.

Mind you, legal bans against conversion therapy are themselves bad because they suppress free speech and the exchange of ideas—even those considered disreputable or junk science. Those who consent to it have every right to consult somebody to try to "cure" them of their homosexuality or gender dysphoria, regardless of whether it's actually effective (which it is not).

This element of the culture war is, ultimately, the consequence of putting lawmakers in charge of deciding what sort of treatment for trans and gay people is "legitimate." Lawmakers don't have the ability to determine which trans treatments are actually "legitimate;" they only have the power to decide which treatments are legal. And that's not the same thing.

It's particularly telling that the IFTCC has a declaration on its site that it's an infringement on human rights and freedoms to ban conversion therapy while at the same time a member of its board is advocating for a legal ban on a different sort of medical therapy for the same concerns. That's not what support for freedom looks like.

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  1. I'm not going to comment on the general issue. Feel free to guess my stance on transgender stuff.

    I think this line was interesting though: "Missouri law gives a two-year window for medical malpractice suits, but Pollock's bill would allow a person who received trans medical treatments until the age of 28 to sue."

    1. LGBTQI2A+ organizations that provide trans-counseling services need a section 230 of their own!

      1. Sorry to jump in here.

        Missouri Lawmakers Suggest [...] Depriving [Trans Adults] of Treatment Until Age 25

        Missouri is considering legislation to ban trans medical treatments for minors, and lawmakers and one psychologist who testified at a hearing last week suggested forcing even legal adults to wait until they're 25 years old.

        Unless that psychologist is a legislator (and sorry, I already looked, she's not) you lied right in your fucking headline. You worthless, mendacious, click-baity cunt.

        1. 'lawmakers and one psychologist'

          You included that in your quote but left the lawmaker bit out of the part you bolded.

          Do you not know what 'and' means?

          1. Yes, yes I do.

            Given that the psychologist was the only one who made that suggestion, it was the incorrect word to use.

            Which is why I bolded the part that I did.

            Run along now.

            1. It said "lawmakers". It would be false if they did not.

        2. Yep. That's as far as I went.
          Welcome to Reason.

        3. While Mr. Perlmonger's language is atrocious, I have to agree. The headline is deceptive in the extreme. As the entire discussion has hinged on children with almost constant media lies pretending that these bills were general bans on transitioning, this falsehood is exceptionally distasteful.

          Editor, I request you modify the headline immediately. This is beneath you.

          1. Unfortunately, it is not.

  2. This is a complete rejection of the validity of using medical treatment to resolve trans issues.

    Not 'medical treatment'. Cosmetic surgery. Providing someone an imperfect permanent simulacrum of what they want.

  3. I'd rather have this world where only fully grown adults can do this to themselves than the world where the state takes away your kids for not giving proper gender affirming care because they said something at age 8 that made a teacher decide they are the magical trans. Which is where we're headed

    1. Infantilizing Trans is better than Translitizing Infants like the left wants to do

    2. Concur - highly implausable that there nearly 1 out of 100-150 children are transgender -

      Clear indications that the diagnosis of transgender is a fad / pseudo diagnosis currently popular among the mental health profession.

      0.7%. of youth ages 13 to 17 identify as transgender. 0.6%. of adults identify as transgender ; 150,000. youth ages 13 to 17 identify as transgender.

  4. The medical establishment has turned its back on "doing no harm" in this case. Pandemonium ensues.

  5. You lost me at the interfering with parents rights. Should it be my "right" to have a doctor inject my pre-teen son with puberty blockers? Should it be my right to line him up for a chop job? While these are nuanced issues, as is abortion, the left treats them as absolutes.

    1. "You lost me at the interfering with parents rights."

      The worst part is that Shackford doesn't give a shit about actual parental rights, and forgets that mental and sexual abuse aren't actually parental rights. Well, not so much "forgets" as "lies about".

      1. "Nowhere in the bill [prohibiting foot binding] does it consider the rights of parents, the expertise of medical professionals, or the desires of the minors to meet the beauty standards they wish, in any way."

        "Nowhere in the bill [prohibiting clitoridectomy] does it consider the rights of parents, the expertise of medical professionals, or the desires of the minors to worship as they choose, in any way."

        "Nowhere in the bill [prohibiting orchiectomy] does it consider the rights of parents, the expertise of medical professionals, or the desires of the minors to maintain their singing, in any way."

        1. So the trained medical personnel who are informed about the particulars of a trans person's situation are all dishonest, radical, agenda-pushing zealots who don't care about their patients? And they are less well-informed than you, who are cpmpletely ignorant of the facts of theor case?

          I personally believe that transitioning pre-puberty is a terrible idea. I don't even think that it's wise for an 18-year-old. But I don't think that I know better than those who are involved in the case.

          The level of arrogance necessary to believe that an opinion devoid of knowledge is superior to one that knows all of the facts of the case is mind-boggling.

          If you have to assume that everyone who knows what's going on is evil in order to justify your position, your position is wrong.

      2. "The worst part is that Shackford doesn't give a shit about actual parental rights, and forgets that mental and sexual abuse aren't actually parental rights. "

        Completely agree. That's why this law shouldn't pass, it's child abuse to deny children medical treatment shown to dramatically reduce suicide risk for trans kids. Puberty blockers have no significant impact on those who desist, hysteria about side effects so rare there's not enough cases to reliably establish baseline rates, hormone replacement involves mid teens and up after lengthy evaluation by multiple medical professionals who agree it's the best balance between risk of taking vs not taking, and genital surgery for children isn't a thing anywhere besides the imaginations of right wing jackasses.

        Always projection with conservatives. Abuse children, call Democrats child abusers.

        1. " shown to dramatically reduce suicide risk for trans kids"

          no such evidence exists

          1. And no chance of suicide risk among adults who were mutilated as 8 year olds, right?

            1. Jesus Christ, who is mutilating 8 year olds. Gender affirming surgeries are not performed on children. One example, a hospital right in Missouri, the state spoken about in this article, will not perform surgery until 18. Why do people insist on basing their outrage and arguments on shit that is not even true?

              https://www.stlouischildrens.org/conditions-treatments/transgender-center/gender-affirming-surgery

              1. Because they are cultural conservatives and the world keeps changing. And people keep making decisions about their own lives that cultural conservatives hate. And no matter how much time, money, and effort cultural conservatives spend trying to convince people they are right, America keeps finding their beliefs unconvincing.

                All of these things are unacceptable to cultural conservatives, and all of them will continue to happen.

          2. They are adults when they commit suicide. That is what the study he will link to will show you. Get to gaslight the part about kids.

        2. That's impressive shreek, you managed to lie about half a dozen things with only 5 sentences. You should stick to using your skills of persuasion to get vulnerable children to hop into your van.

        3. Well damn, I wish I knew about this rule when I was 15. Pretty sure if I wasn’t given a bunch of weed to smoke I’d have been suicidal.

        4. That projection you see? It’s from you looking in the mirror.

        5. Fafalone, the data showing lowered suicide risk is, in effect, a complete guess. You estimate which suicides were trans but had no counseling or help and then you measure people who transitioned. The methodology is so vaguely defined that you can get whatever result you want.

          Everything I've ever read has also been binary. There is also little to no review of a more moderate take. For example, counseling while a child to ensure that depression or other problems are taken into account while knowing transition is available as an adult if the dysphoria continues.

          While data is deliberately suppressed on this, some people who have detransitioned have reported that there were other issues, such as depression or even just being gay that were ignored in order to push the "you should transition" arc. They even reported feeling pressured into continuing in descriptions reminiscent of religious cults.

          So no, I cannot agree with you

          1. Every reputable transition surgery involves psychological counseling for the patient. It is a part of the process, which usually takes more than a year from the patient declaring their desire to transition to actually scheduling the surgery.

            So no, the person is not making this decision without psychological help. I have a friend in Colorado who is going through this with her 16-year-old daughter. They are only 4 months into the process and the doctor says it will probably be close to a year until the actual surgery, assuming everything goes smoothly. My friend is very resistant to the idea (she says she doesn't want to "lose her daughter") and is going through psychological counseling separately from the family sessions to help her figure out her own mind.

            Will it happen? I have no idea. Has this been something that her daughter has said for over a year already? Yes. Has the long, slow process made any change in her decision? Not at all.

            I don't understand transsexuals at all. It makes no sense to me. Nor does homosexuality. I can't imagine what it would be like to want to be in a female body or to get turned on by a man. But I'm not so arrogant as to think what I can or can't understand should impact anyone else's life.

            It takes a special level of smug superiority to think that your opinion should matter in a stranger's life.

            1. Nelso, while this does sound helpful, I have to say that I don't have much faith in the psychiatric community. No other medical profession is as prone to pop-culture fads. Disassociated Identity disorder was extremely rare and niche, until it appeared in Hollywood and incidence went up a thousandfold. Forty years later, some psychologists still argue whether it even exists. The horror caused by the repressed and recovered memory fad is still a shame on both the medical and legal professions.

              I base my opinions on tales from those who have detransitioned, as they obviously had the worst results from this "care", and what they tell is far from the ideal that you purport it is.

              1. I don't claim that there is any ideal. I think the incidence of an ideal situation (regardless of the subject) is so low it is indistinguishable from zero. There are no perfect solutions, only better and worse.

                I agree that there are fads and trends in psychology, as there are on any field. But claiming all transition decisions are bad faith or an agenda on the doctor's, psychologist's and parents' part is indefensible. It is hateful hyperbole with no evidence to support it.

                As I noted elsewhere, the incidence of detransition is ver small. Post-surgical detransitioning or regret is even more rare than social and chemical detransitioning.

                That's not to say it doesn't happen, but when 97.8% of people who transition don't regret their decision, claiming the 2.2% who do regret it form a valid counterargument to transition isn't a reasonable position. The stats I listed are from a 50 year longitudinal study because the length and methodology make it an extremely strong study.

                Here is the study if you want to check it out: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24872188/

      3. "The worst part is that Shackford doesn't give a shit about actual parental rights..."

        Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer has mind-reading powers to read all of our TRUE motives... She KNOWS all and... Well secluded... She SEES all!!! So... ALL HAIL Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer!!!!

        (Bow LOW, all ye peons and sub-peons!!!)

        1. Fuck off, you crazy old Nazi pedophile.

        2. It's kinda like how you accuse you Trump of inciting an insurrection on the basis of a speech instructing his followers to "go home in peace", except the opposite of that.

          1. Orange-dick-suckers will NEVER stop sucking orange dick!
            Der TrumpfenFuhrer ***IS*** responsible for agitating for democracy to be replaced by mobocracy!
            https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
            A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.

            Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
            September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.

            Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?

            It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?

          2. It's kinda like how you accuse you Trump of inciting an insurrection on the basis of a speech instructing his followers to "go home in peace", except the opposite of that.

            Nice try, but it is well known that when you tell Trumpsters to "march[] over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard," it's actually code for "Storm the Capitol, burn the motherfucker down, and hang Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi."

      4. Faggot is a closet pedo groomer. Footage at 11.

    2. To order your doctor to do it on your say so? Of course not.

      To have your doctor evaluate your child according to the evidence based best practices established by actual medical experts, and after a period of social transition and consultation with psychiatrists and counselors, continue to follow best practices by starting puberty blockers if the child remains committed and all their medical providers agree, because the overwhelming weight of the evidence shows that's the path the results in the least harm (neither path has zero harm, all you can hope for is minimizing harm)? Yes.

      It's incredibly dishonest to claim that the right isn't treating this as an absolute too. The problem is, the right is trying to maximize dead kids, and the left is trying to minimize it. So they're not exactly symmetric positions equally worthy of respect.

      1. Suicide rates ightly increase after transitioning. Actually working through the mental illness helps more.

        Get the fuck out of here with your lies.

        1. Homosexuality was called "mental illness" through the 90s by opponents. It is clear to any rational person today that they were just trying to demonize gays. Transsexuals having "mental illness" is the same warmed-over approach that failed before. I'm pretty sure that thirty years from now transsexuality will be in the same place homosexuality is today: vehemently opposed by a shrinking cadre of culture warriors.

          1. I disagree given the evidence. Preferring your own sex or both has is a sexual preference. Denying your own biological sex is a different thing. Say you are nearsighted..you can 'identify" as 20/20 but you are not. You are denying reality. And surgery really can't unlike say lasek really change your gender. You will never have the sexual organs of the other sex. As a libertarian you can identify however you want but you can't change your sex. And that has nothing to do with one's sexual preference. The Trans movement is not the same as someone's sexual preference.

          2. Regardless of anyone's opinion of the mental "healthiness" of homosexuality, it was declassified in the early 1970s because of political pressure, such as when the Gay Liberation Front sabotaged an APA conference in San Francisco, declaring psychiatry the enemy of their movement. It wasn't removed from the DSM because "scientific reason" triumphed. It was removed because the APA caved.

            The reason gender dysphoria has NOT been removed from the DSM is because transitioning is considered a medical treatment (not the only one or the best one) for this body image disorder. The trans liberationists don't like it, but they're willing to admit they have a psychiatric disorder so the female transman's double-mastectomy is deemed "medically necessary" rather than cosmetic and elective.

            Interesting that reparative or conversion theory to go from homosexual to heterosexual is still seen as impossibly ineffective, pseudoscientific, and oh so dangerous, despite Kinsey's own findings that orientation can and does change, while progressives entertain "sexual fluidity" as a meta-orientation in which the adventurous, nonconforming individual casually changes orientations, and if you don't celebrate their sexual emancipation, then you're a big ol' -phobe.

            Professional associations in the medical field have for decades been politically aware and disdainful of anything that smacks of ethical or social conservatism. It's only now becoming obvious to many people.

            1. The problem with conversion therapy to go from homosexual to heterosexual was when it was forced on minors by their parents who seem to have no problem with their children being subjected to verbal and emotional abuse for being "abnormal" for feeling something certain morons think can be changed. Do you think you could change your sexual preference and learn to live with having same-sexual relations just because you were told you were a freak who was going to burn in hell if you didn't? If a grown adult wants to voluntarily see someone is one thing and hey, go for it.

      2. You could just come out and say "I like the idea of sexually mutilating children because it makes them more vulnerable and easier to rape", shreek. It's not as if we've all forgotten the 4 or 5 dozen times you've outed this sock, or the fact that you got banned for posting darkweb links to child porn.

        1. Jesus, you are a hateful person. Welcome to the mute list.

    3. Should it be your right to place your child in gay conversion therapy?

      1. Unfortunately, yes. Assuming it isn't one of the ones that use physical and psychological abuse. Teaching guilt and self-loathing isn't illegal.

    4. Doctor here. The right is interfering with patient care. Period. That’s government overreach. We contract privately with our patients. Their judgement and our judgment for care is what matters. Not some ideological mess lawmakers impose.

  6. Mentally ill people aren't competent to make these decisions.

    1. Transsexuals aren't mentally ill.

      1. What is mentally ill? Ask 10 docs and you will get 10 different answers. That said, it is denying reality. Gay or Straight or Bi is a sexual preference. Deciding you are not your biological sex is different. Now you are free to have surgery but for youngsters who are confused...they can wait.

  7. The very first sentence of the article reveals that the headline is a lie. I think that may be a record for a Shackford article.

    1. Indeed.

      What is it with their aversion to truth?

    2. I'd probably be much more well-disposed to this story if it wasn't so damned dishonest. Do these writers never have a sense of the costs for their bullshit?

      1. They haven’t learned anything yet.

      2. "sense of the costs"

        Their consciences are assuaged by fat brown envelopes.

        1. Nah, they're useful idiots true believers. Like the overwhelming majority of faggots, Shackford likes to fuck little kids. His middling salary at the only publication that would ever consider publishing him is quite secondary. He'd advocate for kiddie fucking even if it meant living on the street. Fucking little kids is a moral absolute for these mentally diseased pieces of subhuman shit.

    3. Yeah, one guy mentioned maybe 25.

      1. Literally one asshole. It's like when they include the one example of that mother who wanted the book that had a gay character in it, but the headline pretends like that's the whole story.

        It's mendacious, it's manipulative, and it's more harmful to your cause than helpful. I'm starting to wonder if Shack isn't some kind of agit-prop plant, meant to make us all despise the LGBT movement and anything approaching trans activism. He's better at making me dislike the side he's advocate for than actually persuading.

        1. I don't know. The priests of Moloch weren't dissuaded by the contempt that Roman, Greek, Persian and Jewish writers had for their activities. Trans apologists like Shackford are similar.

          Their worldview is so different from normal people that they can't understand how we can see their actions as monstrous and abhorent, and I think this is Shackford's problem. He is a true believer.

          1. Should have scrolled down. You got it right here.

            1. yeah.. you were a little harsh earlier on. 🙂

  8. There is no such thing as a "trans" person.
    Just delusional ones, who need mental health care.

    1. There is no such thing as a "trans" person. Just delusional ones, who need mental health care.

      The same was once believed regarding homosexuality. Or do you think that it was wrong for the psychiatric and medial professions to abandon that even that belief? What recent scientific research are you using to arrive at this conclusion?

      1. Eat a bullet, groomer.

      2. Feelings are unable to trump biology.

      3. The same was once believed regarding homosexuality. Or do you think that it was wrong for the psychiatric and medial professions to abandon that even that belief?

        Of course it was wrong. The research was abandoned for political reasons--reasons that had nothing to do with science.

        The high-functioning nature of the homosexual disorder means that it can be tolerated and is not highly disruptive of society. It does not mean that the issue should not be researched with an eye towards a cure or resolution.

        And it DEFINITELY does not mean that it should be forcibly jammed under the umbrellas of 'normal'.

        There are a myriad of disorders, malfunctions, and diseases that we deal with in day to day life. We accept that people HAVE them. AND we work towards cures.

        There are a lot of very fine gay people. That does not mean that there's nothing wrong with them. There are a lot of very fine blind people too--more of them, in fact than there are gay people, yet we try to cure blindness.

        And we'd think someone who wanted us to stop doing so a vile garbage human.

        So why does this not apply to homosexuality?

        1. There are a lot of very fine blind people too--more of them, in fact than there are gay people, yet we try to cure blindness.

          And we'd think someone who wanted us to stop doing so a vile garbage human.

          And there are deaf people who try to tell you that their deafness is their "identity," and that it's a kind of cultural genocide to try to cure deafness, though such measures as cochlear implants. I'm not sure I'd call them vile garbage humans, but they're definitely not what I'd call emotionally well balanced.

      4. One's sexual preference is different than denying your biology. I am very nearsighted...I identify as someone with 20/20 vision. Sorry but I don't have it. And unlike Lasek, if really can't change your biology even with surgery. It is a different set of questions.

  9. Missouri is considering legislation to ban trans medical treatments for minors, and lawmakers and one psychologist who testified at a hearing last week suggested forcing even legal adults to wait until they're 25 years old.

    I have no problem banning this procedure for minors. And while I don't know anything about the lawmakers, I might submit that the psychologist who testified is a "Kulturwarrrrior hurr durr".

    There are reasonable (although from a libertarian perspective, wrong) reasons to slow the roll of anyone who wants to start cutting parts off their body and do irreversible damage.

    While I support people over 18 doing... pretty much whatever they want, at least I'm aware of what it is I'm giving the nod to, even if I don't necessarily approve.

    Also, I've posted about it before, but you should read the story of the Dutch (I think) man whose account Douglas Murray recounts in his book, The Madness of Crowds.

    Essentially, a young man who was unhappy in his body, engaged-- with the help of the state-- in surgically transforming himself into a woman, and then when he was still unhappy with the result, asked the state to help him kill himself-- an act in which the state enthusiastically obliged.

    How compassionate and forward thinking it all is.

    1. I might submit that the psychologist who testified is NOT a "Kulturwarrrrior hurr durr"

  10. Conservatives: Parental rights! Parental rights! Schools must respect parents rights to such an extreme as to let them dictate curriculum and healthcare, and force schools to out them to us!

    Also conservatives: Fuck parental rights. We know better than children's parents and their doctors, and every major medical organization, so parents can get fucked, the legislature and governor makes the decisions about their healthcare.

    Conservatives, including the auth-right dbags masquerading as libertarians in this comment section, have no actual principles. Every ostensible principle is merely a tool to get what your feelings want, to be discarded the minute it's not helpful. For the party of "fuck your feelings", theirs are all that matter. The cognitive dissonance is so intense, you people will show blatant hypocrisy in the same damn sentence sometimes, and can't even see how dumb you look doing it.

    1. I'm as libertarian as they come. You're wrong.

    2. How many sockpuppet's does one guy need, Shrike?

      "parental rights"

      Aside from (arguably) circumcision, parents have never had the "right" to injure and maim their children, you fat kiddie-diddling fuck. Quit pretending that gaslighting and castrating kids is a matter of choice.

      1. >parents have never had the "right" to injure and maim their children

        Treatment for trans kids is purely hormonal and counseling. The idea that kids are having serious cosmetic surgery performed on them is a lie.

        That being said, there are other examples than circumcision. For example, surgery to turn a cleft palate into a regular one, or amputation of a vestigial tail. Those are both surgeries that prevent a child's body from developing naturally, but it is understood that the average human doesn't want to have a cleft palate or a stubby tail, so parents are allowed to choose a surgery that changes the natural course of the body's development. We might want to delay surgery for trans kids because we have some uncertainty about whether or not they'd detransition, but it's the same principle.

        1. Treatment for trans kids is purely hormonal and counseling. The idea that kids are having serious cosmetic surgery performed on them is a lie.

          No, actually you're a lying piece of shit, shreek.

          That being said, there are other examples than circumcision. For example, surgery to turn a cleft palate into a regular one, or amputation of a vestigial tail.

          It's almost like correcting a medical deformity is different than surgically altering healthy genitalia or deliberately destroying a healthy endocrine system or something, shreek.

          We might want to delay surgery for trans kids because we have some uncertainty about whether or not they'd detransition, but it's the same principle.

          No, shreek, correcting a medical disorder through the use of surgery and drugs is not the same as amputating and surgically altering healthy genitalia or permanently destroying the endocrine system of a child. See, it's not the same principle at all, because on the one hand you are talking about mutilating healthy organs and biological systems, and on the other hand you are talking about correcting medical abnormalities. Parents are well within their rights to have their child's inflamed appendix removed. They are not within their rights to have their child's entirely healthy left pinky finger surgically removed. See how those things are fundamentally and irreconcilably different you lying piece of shit?

        2. "Treatment for trans kids is purely hormonal and counseling."

          Also tends to sterilize them at an incredibly young age, causes medical problems still not fully grasped, and does virtually nothing for the suicide rate.

          "We might want to delay surgery for trans kids because we have some uncertainty about whether or not they'd detransition, but it's the same principle."

          No, it really is not. It's like saying "If we allow male circumcision, we should also allow children who think they should be missing limbs to have limbs lopped off"

          1. How about we leave the decision to the parents, doctors, and psychologists who actually know the patient?

            For libertarians, you cultural conservatives sure love top-down government mandates on people you don't know.

            If I didn't know any better, I'd think that cultural conservatives hate liberty.

            1. Doctors want money. Psychology has turned itself into a sketchy medical practice to a laughable one. And while I am quite supportive of parental rights, if they are abusing their children, no, their rights are not paramount.

              1. So all doctors and psychologists are amoral and transactional, only interested in making money? That's an awfully broad brush you're painting with. And all parents of trans children are zealot pushing their children into irreversible medical procedures against their will? Your belief requires a massive cadre of sociopaths throughout America. It's not a very reasonable belief.

                Your conclusion that is child abuse is also your conclusion. A + B + C = D makes D a valid conclusion. A = A makes A an unsupported opinion. And entirely invalid, as a conclusion. You are arguing A = A.

        3. "Purely hormonal"
          You act like hormone therapies are completely reversible. They are not remotely such when engaged in while the body is still maturing.

    3. or the party of "fuck your feelings", theirs are all that matter.

      Yes, the people who think that 4 year old children should be able to give consent to having their dicks and tits cut off based on a tempter tantrum are the real objective realists unaffected by the fleeting sensation of childish feelings.

      You're even worse at this than everything else you do, shreek.

  11. I got my browser tabs effed up and posted to the wrong thread:

    The average age of transition was 18 for social transition (17 for females, 24 for males), and 20.7 for medical transition (20 for females, 26 for males). A quarter of the respondents began medical transition before 18. The average age of detransition was 23 (22 for females, 30 for males). On average, detransition occurred roughly 5 years after transition was initiated (with males taking somewhat longer to detransition).

    The participants' decision to detransition was most often tied to the realization that their gender dysphoria was related to other issues (70%), health concerns (62%), and the fact that transition did not alleviate their dysphoria (50%). Interestingly, over 4 in 10 (43%) participants endorsed a change in political views as a reason for detransition.

    Most participants reported significant difficulties finding the help that they needed during their detransition process from medical, mental health, or LGBT communities. Only 13% of the respondents received help from LGBT organizations when detransitioning, compared to 51% when transitioning. A number of participants reported negative reactions from LGBT and medical communities, and 51% of the sample expressed that they did not feel supported during their detransition.

    Most detransitioners reported ongoing needs related to managing comorbid mental health conditions (65%), finding alternatives to medical transition (65%), and coping with regret (60%). Half of the sample reported the need for medical information on stopping or changing hormone regimens. A great majority of participants also expressed the need to hear about others' detransition experiences (87%) and getting in contact with other detransitioners (76%). The study highlights the urgency of providing appropriate medical, psychological, legal, and social support to detransitioners.

    Don't be such a phone, maaaan!

    1. But shreek the pedophile who got banned for posting dark web links to child porn assures us just a few posts above that nobody has ever performed transition surgery on a minor, ever, in the entire history of trannyism. Who shall we believe?

    2. Does it say what the rate of detransition was? Because from what I can find the rate of detransition (stats from 2021) in America for those who underwent gender-affirming surgery is 3%. When you include those who stopped social and medical transitions it rises to 8%, but 62% of those only stopped temporarily.

      More impressive is this study (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets) that covered 50 years and showed a regret incidence of 2.2%.

      So it seems like regret and detransitioning has a negligible incidence rate. On the other hand there is a study that found a detransition rate of 80%. Of course they could not find almost half the participants at the end of the study and just marked them as detransitioning. That seems like a totally valid study.

      This virulent cultural conservative hatred of transsexuals would be annoying enough if it was just another empty culture war wedge issue (like most of them). But they pretend that homosexuality, transsexuality, pedophilia, and sexual assault are somehow connected which is patently absurd. This "groomers" nonsense and the fearmongering about bathrooms would be laughable if it weren't so passionately believed.

      Cultural conservatives are so clueless that they claim that a straight male who put on a skirt and raped a girl in the women's bathroom is an example of the dangers of transsexuals. They don't let the fact that the rapist was a heterosexual man and there were no transsexuals involved get in the way of painting transsexuals as predators. It's unreasoning, unhinged, illogical, moral panic with no foundation in facts.

      1. "But they pretend that homosexuality, transsexuality, pedophilia, and sexual assault are somehow connected which is patently absurd."

        Take up your beefs with the advocates who are SPECIFICALLY doing that.

        What do you think the "T" in LGBT means?

        1. No one is advocating for pedophilia or sexual assault.

          But apparently cultural conservatives think the "T" stands for pedophile. Hence the constant, unsubstantiated accusations of "groomer" from the lunatic fringe.

      1. If you want to please a conservative, assure him you share the views that fairy tales are true, that childish superstition deserves respect in reasoned debate among adults, and that there is nothing wrong with old-timey bigotry.

        1. If you want to piss off Kirkland ban culottes and powdered wigs.

        2. assure him you share the views that fairy tales are true, that childish superstition deserves respect in reasoned debate among adults, and that there is nothing wrong with old-timey bigotry

          Fairy tales like 4 year old boys actually being girls because they like to play dress up and draw pictures instead of killing bugs and playing soldiers? Childish superstition like believing a person can change their DNA by cutting off their dick or tits? Old-timey bigotry like jailing parents for not allowing school teachers to sexually groom their children? Like that, shreek?

        3. Imagine being so delusional that you think it’s only icky conservatives that believe in fairy tales.

      2. So conservatives are pissed at Republican politicians who lie to them? Funny, it seems like they just defend and re-elect them (or try to).

        Adultery, pedophilia, abortion, and any other hypocrisy seems perfectly acceptable. Eric Greitens may not win the primary, but he's in the running. It looks like being lied to doesn't bother conservatives at all.

  12. Wow, this is a hyperbolic article and Mr Shackford should be ashamed. Let's just look at all the nonsense.

    1) Start with the headline that says, "Missouri Lawmakers Suggest Infantilizing Trans Adults and Depriving Them of Treatment Until Age 25". But literally one paragraph in, we see that a single Psychologist (not lawmakers) suggested the 25 year old number.

    2) "This is a complete rejection of the validity of using medical treatment to resolve trans issues." No. This is restricting the medical treatment when it can cause long term affects to minors before they are at an age where they can consider the consequences. Whether you think that it is appropriate or not, it is not a "complete rejection."

    3) Even though the law specifically says age 18, Shackford continues to hinge on the 25 year suggestion of one person to say that conservatives are infantilizing adults. But isn't 18 generally when we say people become adults? Which is, of course Shackford keeps substituting the 25yr claim- because he knows that if all his complaints were about 18 year olds, most of the readers would be saying, "Wait...17 year olds aren't adults though..."

    1. Note that Shackford doesn't have a problem with telling legal adults they can't vape, buy tobacco, buy beer, or place a bet. It's only telling underage children they can't unilaterally decide to cut off their dick or tits that gets his goat. It's almost like Shackford is a faggot pedophile seething that his ability to fuck children is coming into question.

      1. Shackford also does not seem to consider banning conversion therapy for a consenting adult to be "infantilizing".

        1. This is true. And hypocritical of Mr. Shackford.

    2. 26. Obama declared indivs were children until 26 for their parents insurance to cover, and their parents to pay for.

      1. No, the law said children (as in the offspring/legally adopted humans they parented) could stay on their parents' insurance. It did not claim they weren't adults.

        But don't let facts influence your polemic.

        1. well.. they were at least functionally being treated as children

  13. All that said....

    I don't like the idea of telling Parents how to raise their kids. Parents should be allowed to dress their kids how they want, teach them as appropriate and raise them with the morals and religion that the parents see as important right up until the child is emancipated. If that means some parents produce gender confused snowflakes, then that is the price of freedom.

    That said, I think most people would agree that there is a point where a parent's actions violate their duties, and they are breaching their moral and ethical duties to the child. And performing unalterable, and medically controversial procedures on kids is edging right up to the line of abuse in my book.

    Where do we draw the line at which a parent's conduct is forming a breach of trust? What if they are not educating the child? What if they are teaching them flat earther shit or communist nonsense? What if they are refusing the children life-saving antibiotics?

    Morally speaking, the goal of a parent should be to postpone irreversible changes that drastically impact their ability to live a normal life until they can be made by the child as an adult. That probably makes transition surgery/drugs immoral, and also includes religious fundies who would let their kid die of infection, rather than administer antibiotics.

    Therefore, morally speaking, these laws are enforcing a morally justified protection of the child. However, practically speaking, the better thing to do is for the legislatures to find a way to counter the quackery that counts as the LGBT!@$+ agenda these days, and ensure that it stays the fuck out of medical science and schools.

    1. >Morally speaking, the goal of a parent should be to postpone irreversible changes that drastically impact their ability to live a normal life until they can be made by the child as an adult.

      If this is the case, then a parent has a duty to provide a kid who is likely to be trans with puberty-blocking drugs. Puberty is an irreversible change, regardless of whether one goes through it with one's natural biology or takes hormones to undergo the puberty of the opposite sex. Puberty blockers delay the onset of the process so that one can make up ones mind how exactly they want to go through it.

      1. Puberty is an irreversible change, regardless of whether one goes through it with one's natural biology or takes hormones to undergo the puberty of the opposite sex.

        Lmfao. Loading up a prepubescent girl with testosterone or a prepubescent boy with estrogen does not making them undergo the puberty of the opposite sex you colossal fucking retard. Holy fucking shit.

        1. Seriously, explain how a boy taking estrogen will experience menses, shreek. Go ahead, you biologically illiterate child fucking faggot.

        2. Why should your feelings determine someone else's life's path? Who are you to tell this kid who he is and how he should chose to live his life? Most comments here do not sound very libertarian-like to me...

          https://youtu.be/ZDADpYj4jb4

      2. Science!

      3. "Puberty blockers delay the onset of the process so that one can make up ones mind how exactly they want to go through it."

        My understanding is that Puberty Blocking drugs have irreversible consequences to the child. Do you have different information?

        1. We aren't talking about delaying puberty for a few months. This is constant medical treatment for a third of childhood that seriously delays an entire host of developments. Additionally, hormone therapy has huge effects on cognitive development. This isn't a small action.

          Doing this as a "precaution" for children who "might" be trans is like cutting off one's legs to prevent yourself from breaking your toe.

    2. Morally speaking, the goal of a parent should be to postpone irreversible changes that drastically impact their ability to live a normal life until they can be made by the child as an adult. That probably makes transition surgery/drugs immoral, and also includes religious fundies who would let their kid die of infection, rather than administer antibiotics.

      Failing to intervene is morally the same as intervening. You shouldn't have explicated your initial thoughts. Better to be thought a fool, and all that.

      1. "Failing to intervene is morally the same as intervening."

        This is nonsense talk. If a kid is dying of a bacterial infection, and a doctor is standing ready to administer antibiotics, you are intervening if you prevent the doctor from administering it. If your argument is that the child's religion prohibits it, then I am sorry- let the child choose that religion when they are of age, but as a Parent you are not allowed to make that choice when the predominant likelihood is that you are making a decision that is irreversible (death).

        This isn't cut and dry of course, which is why I tend to lean against blanket laws.

  14. I’m for maximum freedom: abolish all medical regulations.

    Until then: no special carve outs for special victims.

    1. It is a fact that before the libertarian party began pulling spoiler votes away from the entrenched looters, there were as many laws persecuting queers in These Christian States as law persecuting jews in Christian National Socialist Germany. Nowadays the Kleptcracy dares not threaten them. Observe the total absence of measurement data in Scott's hysteria-highlighting article! Abolishing medical regulations and licensing and letting tort law sort it out sounds better than letting medical cartel whores run people's lives.

  15. I don't think there is any question that genuine transsexual people exist, but you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to believe that the numbers we are seeing reflect reality and aren't part of some really weird fad pushed by the left and social media. It's basically pitched as a solution to teen angst. Feel awkward? Why you must be transsexual!

    That would be great if it didn't involve medical treatments and mutilating their bodies. Which is something ultimately we all pay for

    1. The hilarious thing is that that the faggot lobby has spent the last 30 years lecturing normies about how a boy who likes dolls and wears pink is perfectly normal and shouldn't be ostracized, and that a girl who likes trucks and wears jeans is perfectly normal and shouldn't be ostracized. And then, in the span of a few years, they went from "DON'T PERSECUTE YOUR FAGGY BOYS AND BUTCH GIRLS FOR BEING QUEER!" to "FAGGY BOYS ARE GIRLS TRAPPED IN BOY BODIES AND BUTCH GIRLS ARE BOYS TRAPPED IN GIRL BODIES! IF YOU DON'T MUTILATE THEIR GENITALS AND DESTROY THEIR ENDOCRINE SYSTEM YOU ARE A BIGOTED BIGOT WHO PRACTICES BIGOTRY!" It's almost like faggots just really, really, really like mentally abusing and sexually assaulting little kids or something.

      1. Lesley, you have fairly well reasoned arguments, but you constantly ruin it with your language. If you want people to take you seriously, tone it down.

        How about this.
        A boy or man who likes My Little Pony isn't necessarily gay or trans. He is a boy who likes musical rainbow equines. A girl or woman who likes Batman isn't necessarily gay or trans. She is a girl who likes punching clowns. We have been told this since most of us were small children.

        So why do we now insist that this means that young children who do not rigidly enforce gender stereotypes must really be trapped in the wrong gender? Can we not all enjoy colorful music while punching clowns together?

  16. I've noticed lately that the comments for every recent Trans article have been overwhelmingly hostile. I don't recall it being this way until recently (although there were fewer articles on the subject before).

    I get the impression that a lot of people here have fallen for the Panic Of The Moment.

    Anyway, I'm not an expert, but the small amounts of research I've done on the subject is clear on a few things.....

    The overwhelming majority of treatment given to Trans minors consists of counseling and not much else.

    Puberty blockers (which have been around for about 3 decades, and are also used for early puberty and other medical problems) appear to be extremely safe at least until age 15 or so.

    As far as I can tell, nobody is giving sex hormones to prepubescents.

    Despite what Suzie Pollack said, as quoted in the article, people who have had hormone treatment and surgery are usually capable of orgasm. In fact, they often report having orgasms more easily afterward. This is not universal, though. Complications can occur which negatively affect sexual feelings, sometimes drastically. It helps to have really good doctors. But the important part is that most people do experience proper sexual function.

    I've tried to find decent information about detransitioners, but there is too much disagreement and I don't know which studies, if any, are the trustworthy ones. I suspect there isn't enough consistent data for anyone to come to a decent conclusion. But it does seem that most detransition during the early stages, before major physical changes.

    A more basic problem is that most people opposed to Transgender treatments don't seem to clearly understand why people transition. I don't think most of you realise how debilitating gender dysphoria can be.
    When the Covid started, my state decided to make everybody renew their licences online, taking their own picture and attaching it to an email. I had to call my brother to come and take my picture, so that I wouldn't have to look at my own image. I kept crying when I tried to take my own photograph.

    1. The overwhelming majority of treatment given to Trans minors consists of counseling and not much else.

      There are no such thing as “trans minors.”

      1. You're saying we're born as full adults?

        1. People have become trans well into adulthood.

          1. So, what you and Muzzled Woodchipper seem to be saying is that any thoughts or feelings an adolescent has that might indicate being trans aren't real until they turn 18? Then, magically after their 18th birthday, they can be trans? I'm sure it's the same for gays and lesbians, right? They should wait until they are legally adults to come out of the closet and pretend to be straight until then, just in case they are wrong.

            1. Transgenderism is a mental disorder, promoted by truly evil pieces of shit that need to be violently dealt with.

        2. You're saying we're born as full adults?

          A little boy cannot be a woman trapped in a man's body--because he is neither a 'man' or a 'woman' and lacks the necessary understanding.

          Does he like 'girlish' things? So? Let him play with girlish things.

          Nothing he is going to do in childhood requires him to have a vagina. Or even be called a 'girl'. Everything 'girlish' he wants to do can be done without medical intervention.

          Women born in the bodies of men ARE adults.

          There are no 'trans' minors.

          1. No one is saying that their son played with dolls, so he is obviously trans. That is a ridiculous argument and a complete fabrication as to how transsexuality is determined.

            No one, anywhere, ever, has said their kid was trans without that child first telling them. It is the declaration of the child that is the starting point. It is never what the parent thinks.

            What is wrong with people? Do you really think that a kid plays with a gendered toy and the parents rush them into the nearest hospital for surgery the next day? Or that a doctor would do such a thing? Are people really that blinded by your beliefs?

            1. No one is saying that their son played with dolls, so he is obviously trans.

              You misspelled 'everyone'.

              The liking of atypical items for ones gender is heralded as the first sign of a possible 'trans' child. It's in the literature as one of the things to look for.

              And you need to bear in mind that this has gotten to the pre-verbal stage, people are looking for signs of gender non-conformity in children as young as 3.

              But even when the child comes and says that they think they're 'trans' it's usually centered on atypical likes and motivations more than anything else.

              1. It sounds like you are saying what you believe, not anything that is supported by facts. Do you have some evidence of this massively unlikely parental approach being normal? Or are you using one situation and extrapolating it to everyone else? Or is this an entirely hypothetical situation that you created and think should be treated as the norm?

    2. I'm not an expert, but the small amounts of research I've done on the subject is clear on a few things.....

      Nothing that you stated following this sentence is in any way supported by any research whatsoever. You quite literally made it up from whole cloth. Your second point belies the first: if children are only being given counseling then there would be no rock-solid evidence that puberty blockers and genital mutilation are safe, healthy, and effective. You're really, really bad at this, shreek.

      Leaving aside that obvious contradiction that utterly obliterates any claims you make to having researched the subject, puberty blockers given to healthy children in order to disrupt their biology has not been systematically studied because it was considered medically unethical to do so until the last 4 or 5 years when having a trans kid became chic for neurotic urbanite women. The only studies on the subject involve children who were given the drugs to prevent an endocrine system disruption that causes early puberty, not to prevent healthy pubescent adolescents from experiencing natural puberty because they are mentally fucked up.

      1. The 'obvious contradiction' you refer to is not a contradiction.

        I said that prepubescent children are only given counseling. And I said that puberty blockers, which are not given until around the start of puberty, are considered safe. These statements do not contradict each other.

        While it's certainly possible I got some facts incorrect, I did not make up any of it. Any wrong information would be from my sources.

        Also, I am not Shreek (under any spelling). This is the only name I've ever used on this site, and I've been using it for over a decade.

        1. And I said that puberty blockers, which are not given until around the start of puberty, are considered safe.

          ...when used as intended.

          That's an important caveat that's often left off.

          I do not care what adults carve themselves into. In fact, I encourage it. Sex, shape, whatever. Add a vulva. Add some horns, fangs, a tail. Have at it. Maybe you'll get good enough at it that I might even have a go.

          But not kids.

          Kids lack the vision to really understand. They think they can handle anything. And they can't.

          And parents should not have the authority to authorize permanent changes to healthy systems for people who cannot understand the full scope of those changes.

    3. there is too much disagreement and I don't know which studies, if any, are the trustworthy ones.

      IOW, you couldn't find a single study that actually supported your pro child mutilation stance. Since you lied about literally everything else you posted, I'm surprised you bothered admitting the truth here, however indirectly.

    4. I had to call my brother to come and take my picture, so that I wouldn't have to look at my own image. I kept crying when I tried to take my own photograph.

      Lmfao. And there we have it. Because you're a neurotic, mentally ill troon you have to project your neuroses and mental illness onto innocent children.

    5. Interesting how I had to take the word "detransition" out of my reply in order to get past Reason's naughty word filter, even though I was quoting it from the mentally ill tranny.

    6. Until recently, the general consensus in psych circles was that gender dysphoria was rare and likely to clear up after puberty- as in, the feelings that a person was in the wrong body changed as they realized that maybe everyone feels a little awkward in their body as they transition through puberty.

      The Trans community seemingly changed this as quickly overnight as the CDC changed their stance on Masking. Color me deeply skeptical here. But if people want to listen to quacks and psychologists with a cultural bone to pick, who am I to argue? My only beef is doing this on the behalf of your ward, whom you are ethically and morally required to get to the point where they can make these life altering decisions for themselves. So...get them to that point, and then they can make the decision for themselves.

      1. so how do we discern between pseudoscience and psychology?

    7. A more basic problem is that most people opposed to Transgender treatments don't seem to clearly understand why people transition. I don't think most of you realise how debilitating gender dysphoria can be. ... I kept crying when I tried to take my own photograph.

      You have a serious, debilitating mental illness, a form of delusional disorder. I am sorry for you. You should get safe and effective medical care. But castration is no more a acceptable treatment for your mental illness than a frontal lobotomy.

      1. Fortunately, transsexuals don't have a mental illness.

        1. Then why do they need treatment? No illness, no treatment.

    8. If I were a Kleptocracy sockpuppet, flinging the dead cat of religious fanaticism (of incompatible sorts) into Reason debates could stink up the pro-freedom party and make it easier to get libertarians thrown off the ballot in more states. Lookit how many votes were recycled into looter agendas by adding three moronic planks and getting one communist anarchist boothead on the LP ballot! Infiltration and sabotage are part and parcel of the initiation of force and fraud.

  17. An adult is an adult and they should be able to make adult decisions at the same age at which they can be drafted. This includes drinking alcohol, buying a gun, or having reassignment surgery. However, they should also bear the full consequences. This means no suing the doctor for doing what you asked him to do, and not expecting the state to pay for the transgender surgery or any surgery to reverse it.

  18. Missouri is considering legislation to ban trans medical treatments for minors, and lawmakers and one psychologist who testified at a hearing last week suggested forcing even legal adults to wait until they're 25 years old.

    Scott is the type of homosexual that kept my husband and me in the closet for so many years. We stayed in the closet because homosexuals like Scott did not represent anything to which we aspired as men. We resent today, as married gay men, homosexuals like Scott, continually ignoring and/or distorting the medical sciences to push their culture wars, which is to say "misinformation". Homosexuals like Scott do a huge dis-service to gay and lesbians by dragging us into their petty, sophomoric, bitchy sophistry to demonize anyone who disagrees with them. They are dopamine driven, mean, vicious, bitchy alphabet (LGBTQIAS+-EIEIO) people who are bereft of any intellectual thought. Here's the science, and the legislatures are absolutely right for sticking to age 25.

    Neuropsychiatr Dis Treat. 2013; 9: 449–461.
    Published online 2013 Apr 3. doi: 10.2147/NDT.S39776

    Maturation of the adolescent brain

    It is well established that the brain undergoes a “rewiring” process that is not complete until approximately 25 years of age.5 This discovery has enhanced our basic understanding regarding adolescent brain maturation and it has provided support for behaviors experienced in late adolescence and early adulthood. Several investigators consider the age span 10–24 years as adolescence, which can be further divided into substages specific to physical, cognitive, and social–emotional development.5,6 Hence, understanding neurological development in conjunction with physical, cognitive, and social–emotional adolescent development may facilitate the better understanding of adolescent brain maturation, which can subsequently inform proper guidance to adolescents

    Stop peddling culture war panic wars, Scott. You're really a disgrace of a homosexual, a total sell out to gays who don't appreciate you continually dragging us into your shallow Woke crusades as we gay men all spoke with the same voice and sang from the same sheet music. Scott knows better than most that gay men are hopelessly divided into half a dozen or more subcultures precisely because we all think differently on a host of issues. Many of us gays are perfectly happy being productive, loving, married gay men who enjoy extensive support and fellowship with both heterosexuals and homosexuals.

    TL;DR: Scott is a huge queen and queens like him are nasty as fuck

    1. edit:

      ...Woke crusades as if we gay men all spoke with the same voice and sang from the same sheet music..

      my kingdom for an edit button

      1. From your lips to God's ears.

    2. AYA = Adolescent Young Adult

      Children (Basel). 2022 Feb 24;9(3):309.
      doi: 10.3390/children9030309.
      Psychosocial Distress Due to Interference of Normal Developmental Milestones in AYAs with Cancer
      PMID: 35327680 PMCID: PMC8947616

      Psychosocial Distress Due to Interference of Normal Developmental Milestones in AYAs with Cancer

      Individuals aged 15–18 years of age are in transition between mid and late adolescence [12]. From a physiologic standpoint, adolescents are navigating puberty. Gonadal development is in full swing, and the associated hormonal surges lead to changes in physical appearance and mood [13]. Frontal brain development has begun, but it is not completed until mid-20s [14]. Psychosocially, adolescents are in the midst of developing their own identities and exploring their sexuality [11]. Body image is very important. These AYAs are exploring and setting boundaries from their parents and friends replace their parents as their main source of support [15,16]. At the top of this age range, legal milestones are also achieved, including legal age of voting, smoking, and consent. The driving age, 16 or 18 years, depending on the state in the U.S., is also reached in this period. Many will also complete high school and enter institutions of higher education.

      II. Emerging Adult
      The emerging adult period includes adults aged 18–25 years as described by Arnett in 2000 [17]. In this age range, advanced executive function/decision-making typically emerges while impulsiveness declines [14]. Frontal brain development is completed near 25 years of age [14]. Socially, young adults are experimenting with social norms, religious or spiritual beliefs, sexuality, and relationships [11]. They are also exploring their career and educational paths [17]. In general, this age group still receives some financial support from their parents or other family, but they are starting to establish paths toward their own financial independence [17]. Additionally, pregnancy is more prevalent in this age group than the late adolescent group.

    3. This guy right here is a perfect example of how you can be gay without being an obnoxious faggot. Good on you.

      1. This guy right here is a perfect example of how you can be gay without being an obnoxious faggot. Good on you.

        And this guy right here is a perfect example of how someone can completely fail to hide their anti-gay bigotry. It isn't "woke" to realize that a particular word you just used is unacceptable to people that don't hate and/or fear gay men. It is just basic decency.

        1. JasonT20 is a perfect example of an abusive groomer who is 100% evil and a threat to your children.

          1. Come on y'all, basic manners, please.

            It's one thing to insult people who are being trolls, but when you have person quoting biology studies, at least pretend that you are in civilized society.

    4. Thing is, the VAST majority of "trans" teens would grow up to perfectly happy and satisfied gay men/women. The hyper focus upon people being in their specified gender roles is baffling. When I was younger, girls could be tomboys and I knew boys who acted more effeminately. Did not make the girls "boys" or the boys "girls" and the new belief that it does is highly illogical.

      1. Can you use your psychic powers to tell me tomorrow's Power Ball numbers? You are so certain about what would happen in the future of a whole lot of people you don't know, right?

        1. Please, tell me more about how a girl or boy liking them meant for "the other sex" means that they really ARE the other sex.

      2. Remember when the Kleptocracy was hyper focussed on how black is BLM? Then as soon as Jo was suckered into saying something nice about those racial collectivists she (not the communist anarchist running mate) was branded a communist party member bent on violent overthrow by an infinite series of repetitions from anonymous sockpuppets. Surely there is a lesson in that that could be useful here. The LP is what got gay-jailing laws repealed.

    5. I have to agree with you on multiple counts, both on why this sort of article drags the entire community through the mud and your biology.

      However, while I consider delaying any form of gender transition until later in life to be wise, it should not be a matter of law. At age 18, you are allowed to do any number of things with potentially negative consequences. After adulthood, this should be up to the patient, not the state.

  19. edit:

    ...Woke crusades as if we gay men all spoke with the same voice and sang from the same sheet music...

  20. Missouri Lawmakers Suggest Infantilizing Trans Adults and Depriving Them of Treatment Until Age 25

    Stated as though 45 yr. old Jimmy who identifies as Jenny isn't infantilizing himself.

    I don't see anything here that isn't absurd panic retardation. There are plenty of psychologists who treat people who (e.g.) drink like they're 19 yrs. old without a care in the world. Those professionals aren't wrong to say that alcohol before the age of 21 doesn't benefit anyone. Absolutely wrong to force it on someone, but if called to testify before a legislative body, the honest answer is the not-wrong answer.

  21. Lorena Bobbitt's all over the place!!! Course her charges were dropped due to "insanity"... Now there's a whole big fat group who's going entirely "insane". Maybe, just maybe, insanity shouldn't be an excuse to cut off penises?

    Either way; I think legislators are working this from the wrong angle. It's entirely *not* appropriate to be "managing" everyone's healthcare or the healthcare market. What would be far more appropriate is post-action criminal charges either brought by the state (child abuse) or by the child inflicted by stupid parents.

    Managing Pre-Emptively is exactly what started UN-necessary losses of Liberty to begin with. Kind of like pretending gun-banning is going to stop murders. Maybe waiting for a 'crime' to actually occur BEFORE prosecuting is tough but it's the only way to prevent tyrannical dictation.

  22. Shackford, you've grown progressively shittier as you march up the groomers hill to die.

    This is child abuse, the consequences are permanent and you need to fuck right off the nearest cliff.

    1. It's not happening!
      It's happening but it's not what you think! <- You are here
      It's happening and that's a good thing!

  23. Why not? Didn't the DNC say that people were children until age 26 during the Obama administration? Did they not say that people couldn't smoke until 21?

    Sauce for the goose.

  24. OK groomer.

  25. Well, the mayor of D.C. says that the brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25, so young criminals should not be prosecuted as harshly as those over 25. Apparently 25 is the right age for some things.

    1. Well, the mayor of D.C. says that the brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25, so young criminals should not be prosecuted as harshly as those over 25. Apparently 25 is the right age for some things.

      This is why whataboutism is so detrimental to reasoned debate. People get so into pointing to the other side doing something allegedly similar that any attempt at constructing an actual criteria is lost and even forgotten. It just becomes an exercise in shouting down the other side. Solving a problem is not the goal anymore.

      Rather than focusing only on the hypocrisy or contradictions in how the other side uses brain development, how about you provide a reasoned argument for what you think should be policy?

      1. Get yeeted, groomer.

      2. Rules? in a knife fight?! Objectivity? in a Kleptocracy political campaign?!

  26. Missouri Lawmakers Suggest Infantilizing Trans Adults and Depriving Them of Treatment Until Age 25 [...] one psychologist who testified at a hearing last week suggested forcing even legal adults to wait until they're 25 years old.

    You are lying, and you admit it just one paragraph down.

    Missouri is considering legislation to ban trans medical treatments for minors

    And by "trans medical treatment", you actually mean "elective castration", "elective amputation", and "elective destruction of the endocrine system" of minors.

    Goebbels would be proud of your propagandistic attempts, and Dr. Mengele would be proud of the medical procedures you advocate.

    Nowhere in the bill does it consider the rights of parents, the expertise of medical professionals, or the desires of the minors, in any way.

    Good! When you are an adult, you should be able to chop off any of your body parts at your leisure and at your own, personal expense. But the state should not condone Munchhausen by proxy, nor mutilation of children by sadistic medical practitioners.

    Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder and as such should not be treated by surgery, and harmful and ineffective surgery at that.

    1. Good catch. I haven't seen the phrase “Munchausen syndrome by proxy” in years, but it likely applies in some if not many cases. It is now known as Factitious disorder imposed on another. It is difficult for me to comprehend why a parent would abdicate their role to lead, guide and form a child, as opposed to encourage a child to undergo a surgical procedure that is permanent. There are already cases of the latter that are expressing regret, and alas they cant undo the damage done. Of note, suicidal ideations increase post-surgical transition, not decrease. Thus for those who argue that these individuals “need” to transition surgically so as to address their psychiatric symptoms actually worsens them.

      Whatever happened to allowing kids to be kids and “raise your children”? Impulsivity was mentioned in one of the scientific articles I provided. Parents need to protect their children from impulsive decisions.

  27. It makes a mockery of the idea of self-ownership.

    Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. As such, it affects judgment and decision making. Amputation and castration are not proper ways of treating a mental disorder.

    It's particularly telling that the IFTCC has a declaration on its site that it's an infringement on human rights and freedoms to ban conversion therapy while at the same time a member of its board is advocating for a legal ban on a different sort of medical therapy for the same concerns.

    Homosexuality is not a disease because, by itself, it does noit require any form of treatment. That's why imposing conversion therapy on minors ought to be illegal.

    Gender dysphoria is a disease because it requires treatment, according to its sufferers. The question is whether that treatment should be amputation and castration or whether it should be psychological. As a mental illness, amputation and castration are obviously the wrong medical treatment.

    Now, if we lived in a totally libertarian society and took a hard core libertarian position with no medical licensing and private healthcare, we might say that parents should be able to do whatever they want with their children, including castrate them, amputate body parts, or kill them post birth.

    But given that our current society has socialized medicine and requires prescriptions for something as simple as contact lenses, insulin, and birth control pills, it is consistent for government to prohibit the castration and amputation of minors for a mental illness.

    1. Homosexuality is not a disease because, by itself, it does noit require any form of treatment. That's why imposing conversion therapy on minors ought to be illegal.

      Gender dysphoria is a disease because it requires treatment, according to its sufferers.

      But if people suffering from same-sex attraction say that *it* requires treatment, we can just ignore them, because they don't know what's good for them.

      1. So if I tell a doctor my gender is dysphoriated I can get a scrip for medical weed in Colorado?

  28. Nowhere in the bill does it consider the rights of parents, the expertise of medical professionals, or the desires of the minors, in any way.

    You meant it's just like laws banning gay conversion therapy (even therapy which doesn't involve chopping off body parts or administering drugs with lifelong consequences)?

  29. Sex change operations are not medical treatment, they're butchery.
    I'm fine with ensuring that only complexly adult brains are making that kind of horrible choice.

  30. Wow, I've been gone from this site for a while and I see someone lost their frikkin' mind.
    Should I be able to cut my kid's arm off until they are 17? It's a simple question...
    If the State has one job, it's to punish murderers. Reason.com denies that concerning abortion.
    If the State has a second job, it's to punish assault, especially assault that permanently disables someone. Reason.com denies that here.
    I thought these were supposed to be libertarians?

    1. Girl-bullying Republican Trumpanzee detected: Lose Looter shields deployed.

  31. Known facts are mostly things confirmed by actual experiment. Scott could bravely try out some of these experiments as a volunteer patient then report back to his readers in his capacity as journalist of some repute. Fair enough?

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