DeSantis Calls for End of Walt Disney World's Self-Rule
Culture war conservatism leads to less private industry freedom for the pettiest of reasons.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis announced today that he wants the state Legislature to revoke the 50-year-old law that grants Walt Disney World Resort the authority to govern itself.
The Reedy Creek Improvement District, established in 1967, grants Disney the legal authority over and responsibility for 25,000 acres of land in Orange and Osceola counties. This includes planning and zoning authorities, as well as the responsibility to provide police, fire, and utilities in the area.
DeSantis is now in the midst of a political feud with the Disney corporation, whose leaders have spoken out in objection to the passage of Florida's so-called "Don't Say Gay" bill, which limits and even censors discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity in public schools.
At the same time, DeSantis and conservative Florida lawmakers have been feuding with social media platforms, which they believe are unfairly deplatforming conservative voices. They responded with a profoundly unconstitutional bill that would prohibit large social media platforms like Twitter and Facebook from deplatforming political candidates. At the last minute, these lawmakers included a special carve-out exempting any company that owns a theme park in Florida from these rules. That includes Disney, which also happens to be a massive media company with many online platforms that would otherwise be covered.
When this bill was challenged in federal court, U.S. District Judge Robert L. Hinkle agreed with the plaintiffs that the bill enforces content-based discrimination that violates the First Amendment rights of the tech companies and is pre-empted by federal law. Hinkle put an injunction in place stopping the law from being enforced.
In the order, Hinkle takes note of the theme park exception as evidence of its discriminatory enforcement. The judge also noted many constitutional flaws with the bill besides the carve-out. Nevertheless, in his proclamation calling for this special session to go after Disney, DeSantis suggests that the carve-out is the only problem found with the law and is severable from the underlying legislation. The proclamation notes, "[T]he Legislature should make clear that Florida intends to continue to protect consumers from the arbitrary and inconsistent censorship of social media platforms in a viewpoint-neutral manner…."
By calling for the revocation of the Reedy Creek Improvement District while making note of the special exemption that the Republicans themselves gave Disney in the first place, DeSantis leans into using his office in an overt attempt to punish political opponents in the private sphere.
It may be good for culture war politicking, but one does have to consider whether Orange and Osceola counties are even interested in taking responsibility for providing mandatory public services to the massive Disney resort empire. Disney is the biggest employer within the two counties and most certainly their largest source of tangential and indirect tax revenue through tourism. Right now Disney—through Reedy Creek—actually contracts with the Orange County Sheriff's Office for millions each year ($15.8 million to outside law enforcement agencies in FY 2017) for protection. That's a benefit to the counties that could end up becoming an expense.
It's a bit simplistic to think that giving Walt Disney World Resort the power of self-rule is some sort of gift or privilege. That the park, given self-governance, has managed to maintain itself as a generally safe and stable environment that people flock to from across the world is a pretty good indication that the company knows what it's doing.
Any contention that DeSantis is eliminating some sort of "special treatment" for Disney comes with it the perhaps mistaken assumption that the two counties suddenly in charge of all of this infrastructure will somehow make the park better and not worse. In reality, putting Disney parks at the mercy of two different counties with different laws will be a huge mess for everybody involved, and that's the point. It's not about what's fair or what's best for the citizens in the area. It's about punishing political foes and centralizing government power (a very nonconservative approach) to do so.
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"The Libertarian Case for Faggy Corporatism" by Scott Shackford.
If a corporation wants taxpayer-funded schools to teach children about trannies, then that corporation should be victimized by the very same big government it wishes on the general public.
I'm not bothering to read the article, but is there even the slightest nod to the fact that this carve-out for Disney is equivalent to taxpayer-funded stadiums that Reason Editors occasionally complain about?
Is pedophilia connected to those stadiums? No? Then it’s different.
No but the government does give tax exempt status to organizations and churches that do practice pedophilia.
Why would a public school be tax exempt?
But enough about Islam
Maybe Mod thinks Islam is right about pedos.
Well Muhammad and a 6 year old bride that was consummated at 9 or 10.
"Had" dammit!
Like public schools?
They should stop that too. But this is about more than tax except status.
Do the organizations and churches practice it or did some people who happened to be associated with those groups practice it? Pretty sure when I was a Cub Scout leader we got told that it was against the rules.
Do you think you are winning the argument here? Without actual evidence? Sounds like you think you have a "Got You," moment.
To summarize your argument: Because the government does not tax religious organizations (enough, or at all),... Wait, What exactly are you arguing for?
Which US churches are practicing pedophilia?
@R Mac
Pedophilia is not connected to those stadiums, but it isn't connected to Disney World either. The idea that pedophilia is in any way involved in any of this is completely made up. A bunch of idiots decided to just start lying and saying that schools were promoting it.
Ok, groomer.
Perfect.
Stealing.
"A bunch of idiots decided to just start lying and saying that schools were promoting it."
Kinda like the whole "Don't Say Gay" thingie, amirite?
Nope. Butt sex trumps all in cosmotarian world. You can't help who you love and that includes those poor harassed pedophiles.
Yes, except for the part where instead of wanting the taxpayers to pay for something that a private company should pay for itself, Disney is paying to provide public services (police, fire, etc.) that taxpayers would otherwise normally pay for. So basically it's the opposite situation.
Can't you see?
Shackford is fighting stereotypes by behaving like a pissy obsessively lying bitch.
Dishonest Magazine Articles for Allyship and Inclusion. Scott's their chair.
Yep. Fuck Shackford.
I want to see a movie based on your name.
It's gonna end up being a Bunnicula rehash...
MST:3000
Such an enriching show.
My god these people really are fucking broke. Get Woke Go Broke. Not just financially, but mentally as well.
There should be no carve outs or exemptions for corporations ever. Everyone should play by the same set of rules.
Fuck you Reason, for just becoming another whiny, leftist rag. Pretty sure no one donates to you during your begging sessions either, it's just your daddy donor.....
Fuck you, Trump Humper, for not seeing Desantis' big government conservatism for what it is.
“Peter Garrett calls for the end of Blue Sky mining Company self-rule”
“Tennessee Ernie Ford calls for the cancelling of all Soul debt to the Company Store”
"If it reduces the taxes of just one person, it makes the world more libertarian!" -- Scott Shackford
The Conservative Case for State Control of Industry.
You know who else wanted to end self-rule for a magical kingdom?
Sauron?
Giuseppe Garibaldi ?
Rome?
China?
Weird that Disney claims to be a champion of gays, and yet doesn’t give a shit about them if they live in China.
Jamie Braddock?
Betsy too.
Cesare Borgia?
Sir Mordred
That's the one I was thinking of.
The others are good too.
Gargamel?
Putin?
My level 70 undead warlock?
I see Scott continues with the pro-pedo mischaracterization of the bill. Not sure why anyone would expect different from one of Reason's resident Leftist shills.
Big government is when the state tells a taxpayer-subsidized corporation what to do.
In all seriousness, we should've seen this coming after Gillespie called Scorsese a boomer for bashing Marvel movies.
Scorsese is a boomer and shouldn't be bashing Marvel movies. At the same time, only about three of them are any good.
Why shouldn't he bash Marvel movies? He has his opinions. And, frankly, I don't see the charms myself. I can totally see why he would have strong opinions about the direction his industry has taken.
I like many of the marvel movies. They aren’t great cinema though.
Also, if expertise is a req't for criticism, Scorsese is about as qualified as anyone ever,
Good point. Dude was a monster in the industry my whole life.
Mostly I think complaining about comic book movies or the endless franchise properties, or even the pablum and censorship that comes from trying to court foreign markets is fair game. For anyone. It's kind of the fun of it. And it's no different than everyone griping about everything here.
I have to agree with you there
https://www.caddyprogolfproducts.com
Both Guardians and Thor Ragnarok?
I would say five, both Ant Man's were good also.
Was gonna say the same thing
1 Guardian and only the first half of Ragnarok.
Ironman, and Captain America. civ Wars gets close if only because they touched on ideas of accountability and government control - but they only touched on those ideas long enough to frame some interesting questions before moving on to dudes punching each other.
Scorcese was born in '42. He is too old to be a boomer.
America joined the war 7th December '41. Scorsese was born November '42. He technically qualifies as a boomer, though just barely.
Captain America: The First Avenger, Avengers: Infinity War, and Iron Man?
I continue to appreciate the lie early in the article so I don’t have to bother reading the rest of it.
Scott's characterization of the bill is accurate. The bill is intentionally written so vaguely as to prohibit any and all discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity, even if done so in a completely sex-free context. When the bill was under discussion one of the congressmen in Florida actually suggested clarifying it to make it less vague, and to make it clear that it only rejected teaching of explicit sexual content. The bill's sponsors rejected this proposal because the vagueness was the point.
I don't see how opposition to this bill is in any way "pro-pedo." Discussion of gender identity and sexual orientation does not promote pedophilia in any way and the people who think it does are paranoid fools. We live in the most anti-pedophilia society that has ever existed in the history of the human race. There is no mainstream movement in this country that promotes it. The idea that there is any large-scale "pro-pedo" movement in this country is completely made up.
Vagueness is the point. When you're attempting to keep perverts from grooming kids, you don't want to be specific because they'll tambourine man it all day like the creepy perverts they are.
bingo
The real solution is the end of all government-run schools. (Government-funded isn't necessary either, and inflates prices far more than pure private schools would charge. But one fix at a time.)
But in the meantime, since governments make it really hard for parents to find schools they like, the focus of government-run schools should be on core education -- readin' writin' 'rithmetic. Throw in how to balance a checkbook, read basic contracts, etc, it's probably useful. Driver ed and driver training, why not.
But all this social malarkey? Fuck no! If they'd tried to teach any kind of basic sex education in grades K-3, it would have been a waste of time and let to more kids playing doctor. Gender fluid bullshit? What is the fucking point? No kid that age has any idea what that crap is, and all it would do is lead to kids playing along, pretending to be furries or whatever, just to laugh at each other and annoy teachers.
And aside from all the impracticality of it, it is none of the teachers' business! It is a purely parental realm. You may as well teach them about political parties, which I'm sure is in their plans somewhere.
Keep the fucking schools teaching the three Rs and other core non-social matters.
Anyone who complains the "Don't say gay" bill is government interference in teachers' prerogatives but doesn't complain about teachers interfering in parents' prerogatives is really confused.
For those who want to read the bill themselves:
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF
Couldn't the state of Florida declare that sex education is part of a religious activity, hence it is off limits at state schools?
Anyone who complains the "Don't say gay" bill is government interference in teachers' prerogatives
Teachers are employees of the government.
Government runs the public schools. Pays for them. Sets the curriculum.
"government interference" in public schools is what public school is.
One of the big rationales for public funding of education in the first place is that widespread education is, broadly, a public good: that ideally, public education should produce productive citizens that are capable of making informed, rational choices when called upon to be democratic (little d) voters and decide upon matters of public policy. So education should of course produce graduates that have basic skills on how to function in the world, but that isn't enough. It has to also produce graduates who can think critically and not fall prey to the latest demagogue who comes along. If the curriculum is so narrow that it only appeals to the lowest common denominator, and shies away from anything remotely controversial, then you won't get critical thinkers. You will get graduates who are drones who can regurgitate the "correct" point of view. And that is what Team Red wants in this case here. They don't want critical thinkers. They want graduates who will repeat their "correct" view that there are only two genders, that each one should act according to traditional gender roles, and that homosexuality is taboo and controversial and vaguely connected with pedophilia.
Except you want public indoctrination.
Why do you insist on people talking about sex to other people's little kids?
It would be wise to keep children away from Jeffy.
You keep saying that but then refuse to engage people who call you on this bs.
1) You have repeatedly said that the purpose of public schools is to create "critical thinkers" who make "rational choices" at the voting poll. This is the fallacy of hasty generalization- maybe a bit of question begging. Many people- in fact most- believe that the primary purpose of school is to teach kids basic life skills like math and reading. This is born out in basic curriculums that do not teach critical thinking until Graduate school.
2) Then you setup strawmen like this: "If the curriculum is so narrow that it only appeals to the lowest common denominator, and shies away from anything remotely controversial". There is no evidence that preventing discussions about sexuality to third graders will create "so narrow" curriculums. Indeed, this has been the case for most of history.
3) And so this creates a false dilemma: Either the Republicans allow anything- well any curriculum that the left and teachers want- or they are not fulfilling the public mandate for schools.
4) And so, having engaged in numerous fallacies and mental backflips, you deign to tell us what Team Red wants: They don't actually want to keep teachers from insinuating gender bending and marxist dogma into their curriculum- no they want to create zombies who cannot think properly. What is your evidence? Nothing but the fallacious reasoning you stated above. It is almost as bad as when you accused parents like myself of objecting to gender-bending and marxist dogma as being closet racists. But that was just fucking insulting.
So to be clear: As long as schools are public, there will be tension over what is to be taught. Parents and their elected representatives have MORE right to decide that than teachers, twitteratti, and YOU. That isn't to say that you don't have any right, just not as much.
And to be clear: When a parent exercises the right to determine what education their kid will get, it isn't censorship. When I decide to have my kids watch Princess Bride instead of Debbie Does Dallas on movie night, I am not censoring the latter. I am making a consumptive choice. If you think that means I am a prude, well, who cares? Your opinion doesn't actually matter here. And it is a crying shame that in the US the only way Parents can make these consumptive choices is by overriding the shitty choices of teachers with a marxist or gender bending bone to pick, but oh well. That is my right as a parent.
And by the way, even if I were a religious nutball who felt that homosexuality is taboo, and that teachers shouldn't teach female emancipation, that *too* is my right. Because I am responsible for the education of my kids, not you. Parents are completely within their right to ensure that their kids consume the education those parents are comfortable with.
I don’t call him Lying Jeffy for nothing.
1) You have repeatedly said that the purpose of public schools is to create "critical thinkers" who make "rational choices" at the voting poll. This is the fallacy of hasty generalization- maybe a bit of question begging. Many people- in fact most- believe that the primary purpose of school is to teach kids basic life skills like math and reading. This is born out in basic curriculums that do not teach critical thinking until Graduate school.
You are using the term "critical thinking" too narrowly compared to how I use it. I am referring to it much more broadly. Yes, "critical thinking" as a formal academic discipline is an advanced topic. But every time a student does a word problem in math, or writes a paper having to defend a thesis, that student is engaging in critical thinking. We need students who can do MORE of this sort of thing, not less. I do not want students who only know a memorized set of facts. Those are mindless zombies. I want students who know what those facts mean, who can construct arguments and draw valid conclusions and think creatively about those facts. Those are all exercises in critical thinking. I want thinkers, not zombies who just regurgitate memorized facts. Don't you?
If we don't have citizens who are thinkers, then we are all just subject to the mercy of the whims of the latest demagogue who the majority will fall for. I honestly believe that one big reason that this country is in the state that it's in - where politicians like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump can command such large followings - is because the schools have NOT done a good enough job of teaching students to be critical thinkers, and instead have prioritized too much merely "knowing the basics" instead. Why can't so many people on the left see that Bernie's plans are obviously unworkable and full of nonsense? Why can't so many people on the right see that Trump's plans are obviously hot air filled more with his own ego than any actual substance? Because they are guided more by their emotion than by their reason. Because they never really learned how to spot the bullshit when they were in school. Because their teachers were too focused on preparing their students to pass the next standardized test.
2) Then you setup strawmen like this: "If the curriculum is so narrow that it only appeals to the lowest common denominator, and shies away from anything remotely controversial". There is no evidence that preventing discussions about sexuality to third graders will create "so narrow" curriculums. Indeed, this has been the case for most of history.
Fact: banning topics from the curriculum narrows it. It reduces the number of possible topics that may be discussed in the classroom. How is this not true? If we keep going down this path, the curriculum WILL inevitably be as narrow as I describe. Is that a bit of the slippery slope fallacy? Well, yes, but that's the slope we're currently on.
3) And so this creates a false dilemma: Either the Republicans allow anything- well any curriculum that the left and teachers want- or they are not fulfilling the public mandate for schools.
Okay, I just want to be clear about something here. It's not just Republicans who have a problem with what's being taught in the classroom. It's lots of people, both on Team Red and on Team Blue. Because a lot of people have a hard time letting go of control. But in the current moment, it's the Republicans in the driver's seat of demanding control over the schools. But it was not that long ago that Team Blue was demanding that schools revise their curricula to reduce the number of straight white men that appeared in it, for their own narrow purposes. They're both wrong. Education is good for its own sake, not necessarily for the particular outcome that it may or may not produce.
4) And so, having engaged in numerous fallacies and mental backflips, you deign to tell us what Team Red wants: They don't actually want to keep teachers from insinuating gender bending and marxist dogma into their curriculum- no they want to create zombies who cannot think properly.
I think that, in the main, they mischaracterize topics that they don't like as "gender bending and marxist dogma" and are hostile to a curriculum that, as you say, does anything more than teach "basic life skills". I think more and more of them are hostile to the concept of a genuine liberal (little-l) education that creates well-rounded, broad-minded, critical thinking students, if it means those students are learning ideas that they don't agree with.
What is your evidence? Nothing but the fallacious reasoning you stated above.
It's based on my personal observations, mainly.
It is almost as bad as when you accused parents like myself of objecting to gender-bending and marxist dogma as being closet racists. But that was just fucking insulting.
Umm, I didn't accuse you of being a closet racist. You must be thinking of Tony.
So to be clear: As long as schools are public, there will be tension over what is to be taught. Parents and their elected representatives have MORE right to decide that than teachers, twitteratti, and YOU. That isn't to say that you don't have any right, just not as much.
I disagree. Teachers are professionals. They are not mere automatons reading a script. If parents and politicians and school adminsitrators aren't going to let teachers utilize their expertise and do their jobs, then why are they even there? Hire some minimum wage flunky to just read a script and babysit the kids. Is that what Team Red wants from public school teachers nowadays?
But here is the thing. There doesn't have to be SO MUCH tension about what happens at public schools as long as people understand what their roles are. Teachers are there to develop the curricula and to make pedagogical decisions about how topics should be presented in their fields of expertise. Parents and school boards are there to give *broad* oversight as to the direction of the school, not to micromanage the curriculum. Legislators are there to set broad standards and to correct deficient schools. Administrators are there to make everything run smoothly. The tension only arises when one of these groups decides to take over the domain of another.
And to be clear: When a parent exercises the right to determine what education their kid will get, it isn't censorship.
Well, yes and no. Yes you have the moral right to decide how your child will be educated. But, in the current collectivist public education system, provided you send your child to that public school, you don't have the *exclusive* right to decide how your child will be educated *at that school*. Because the decision is not yours to make *exclusively*. It is a collective decision made by the teachers, parents, administrators, school board, legislators, etc. So if you decide "I don't want my kid reading Gender Queer in school", that is totally fine - but you do not have the authority to make that decision for *every* kid in that school. And if you do try and succeed, through collective action, in removing that book not just from your own child's reading list, but from the school entirely, then yes that is a type of censorship of every kid that attends the school.
IF we are to have public schools, it should produce well-rounded, liberally educated graduates. YES it should teach students basic life skils, but that is not enough. I completely reject the idea of "forbidden knowledge", banned books, banned topics, hiding things from students, only teaching the "correct" set of facts, all of the control freakish things that both Team Blue and Team Red engage in when it comes to schools.
You are so full of shit is amazing.
When it is pointed out the flaws in your argument you state you can freely define words to mean what you want.
What an imbecile.
So he's the Mad Hatter?
Speaking of word problems in math.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/rebeccadowns/2022/04/17/math-assignment-in-missouri-teaches-children-about-maya-angelous-past-of-sexual-a-n2605968
Lying Jeffy has me on mute or I’d do it, so please repost this to him repeatedly until he responds.
"You are using the term "critical thinking" too narrowly compared to how I use it."
No I am using critical thinking as it is generally defined, and your attempt to now backtrack and say that critical thinking is just "the ability to do word problems" is wrong. Critical Thinking is the ability to think critically about a problem- that is setting aside priors, and using only the evidence at hand to formulate a response. It is a good form of knowledge creation that you should explore- I have found it does wonders for adults trying to make sense of the world. It is not taught to 3rd Graders.
"Fact: banning topics from the curriculum narrows it."
But of course you are now retreating from the strawman you created earlier. In the strawman, Republicans were making curriculums "so narrow that it only appeals to the lowest common denominator".
Guess what? All curriculums are narrowed. We don't teach flat earther bullshit to 1st graders. We don't teach them open heart surgery, or have them cut open small animals. We teach them American Government instead of the workings of Peru's government. The entire definition of a curriculum is what will be taught and what will not.
We do this because resources aren't infinite. We have a finite amount of time with kids, and they have a finite ability to learn. Curriculums are made so that we get the most efficient use of that time to reach educational goals. And to be clear, very few parents feel a laudable goal is to make sure 1st graders know what gender queer means.
"Okay, I just want to be clear about something here. It's not just Republicans who have a problem with what's being taught in the classroom."
Yeah, you just always seem so bent out of shape when it is Republicans exercising control.
"I think that, in the main, they mischaracterize topics that they don't like as "gender bending and marxist dogma"
You think wrong. Reason themselves have reported on actual instances of marxist dogma (CRT) being taught in schools.
https://reason.com/2022/01/31/critical-race-theory-taught-in-classroom-california/
Is that Right Winger nuttery?
Further, lookup Gender Queer. It is literally a book with graphic depictions of sex, that is put in school libraries. This isn't mischaracterization it is actually happening.
"I disagree. Teachers are professionals. They are not mere automatons reading a script. If parents and politicians and school adminsitrators aren't going to let teachers utilize their expertise and do their jobs, then why are they even there?"
They are allowed to do their jobs. Insinuating CRT because they feel anti-racism is important, or gender bending dogma because they feel gay tolerance is important may or may not be part of their job. That's up to the parent.
". There doesn't have to be SO MUCH tension about what happens at public schools as long as people understand what their roles are."
You are wrong. There is no role for deciding what a child will learn other than the child and the holder of their consumptive choice (the parents).
"The tension only arises when one of these groups decides to take over the domain of another."
Yes. Teachers have decided to introduce complex moral questions to kids that the parents are uncomfortable with. It isn't for you to decide what parents should or shouldn't allow. That is for the parents. Not you. Not Teachers. And the idea that you believe that these roles are reserved to the parents is typical of someone who has never been responsible for raising a child.
"It is a collective decision made by the teachers, parents, administrators, school board, legislators, etc."
Only because you are supporting a system that strips the rights from the parents. And, of course, you are bitching and moaning that those parents and their elected representatives are weighing in on the collective decision.
"And if you do try and succeed, through collective action, in removing that book not just from your own child's reading list, but from the school entirely, then yes that is a type of censorship of every kid that attends the school."
No it isn't because the kids can still get that content. But this is all a bunch of tap dancing for you. If Parents were able to get Intelligent Design taught in the school, you would be freaking out. You want a curriculum teaching what you want. And that includes censoring things YOU find objectionable. The difference between you and I is that my claim on the right to control my kids' education is paramount, and your claim to that right is totalitarian claptrap.
No I am using critical thinking as it is generally defined, and your attempt to now backtrack and say that critical thinking is just "the ability to do word problems" is wrong.
https://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/defining-critical-thinking/766
Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.
It entails the examination of those structures or elements of thought implicit in all reasoning: purpose, problem, or question-at-issue; assumptions; concepts; empirical grounding; reasoning leading to conclusions; implications and consequences; objections from alternative viewpoints; and frame of reference. Critical thinking — in being responsive to variable subject matter, issues, and purposes — is incorporated in a family of interwoven modes of thinking, among them: scientific thinking, mathematical thinking, historical thinking, anthropological thinking, economic thinking, moral thinking, and philosophical thinking.
So no, you are using the term too narrowly. I am using the term "critical thinking" broadly as intended here, as a way to reason through complex problems. It is manifested by word problems in math as well as in graduate level study. It is and absolutely should be introduced as early as possible in an age-appropriate manner and should be cultivated and developed throughout the school curriculum.
And by the way, I am the one writing my argument, not you. If I say this is what I mean by the term "critical thinking", you don't get to redefine the term and thus change my argument. What is the fallacy corresponding to this type of tactic?
But of course you are now retreating from the strawman you created earlier. In the strawman, Republicans were making curriculums "so narrow that it only appeals to the lowest common denominator".
Guess what? All curriculums are narrowed.
I wrote:
***IF*** the curriculum is so narrow that it only appeals to the lowest common denominator, and shies away from anything remotely controversial, then you won't get critical thinkers. (emphasis added)
I don't think Republicans (yet) want to create a super-narrow curriculum that only caters to the lowest common denominator, but I definitely think we are headed in that direction. Do you disagree? Look at a lot of the comments here, who think that the schools should only "teach the basics". Look at the skepticism bordering on contempt for public school teachers and their professionalism, and wanting to prevent them from exercising their professional expertise and instead replace it with state-mandated diktats. That is what I am complaining about. Not that teachers have to make choices about what to cover because they have finite time. Instead it is that teachers are being told to take certain completely valid topics out of the curriculum because it's "not the basics".
"I think that, in the main, they mischaracterize topics that they don't like as "gender bending and marxist dogma"
You think wrong.
Oh give me a break. How many times do we hear the term "Cultural Marxism" thrown around? Or "CRT" when there is absolutely no part of *actual* critical race theory under consideration? Team Red successfully rebranded CRT to stand for "any discussion about race and privilege that falls outside acceptable Team Red standards", whether or not it had anything to do with the actual graduate-level academic theory. Your own citation admits as much:
In common parlance, opponents often use the term "CRT" to refer a broader set of concepts, like intersectionality—the idea that there are different kinds of oppression that all stack on top of each other—and privilege.
Very little of what Team Red complains about is actual CRT. Yes you found one example where it is described by name. But here is another example that Team Red itself claims is CRT:
https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2021/05/critical-race-theory-in-wisconsin-k12-education/
This is not the only time the La Crosse Area School District has put money towards Critical Race Theory and the indoctrination of their staff and students. Superintendent Aaron Engel agreed to sponsor the “White Privilege Symposium La Crosse, WI: A Vision for Racial Equity: History, Truth, and a Call for Action” to be held later this year in December. School district taxpayers will pay $1,000.00 for the district to be a “Respecting” sponsor, which comes with admission to the symposium for three district employees and three copies of the book “Waking Up White.” The goal of the symposium is to “eliminate race-based privilege and create more equitable, welcoming communities.” It appears that the district will also help to organize and produce the White Privilege Symposium. Melissa Murray, principal at Lincoln Middle School in the district, is listed as a host planning committee member. According to the website, Principal Murray is the White Privilege Symposium Youth Action Project Coordinator for the event. There is no description on the website of what Murray’s role entails, what specific tasks she will be expected to carry out, or if she will be doing this work for the White Privilege Symposium during normal school hours on the taxpayer’s dime.
Guess what - that's not CRT. But that IS a discussion about race and privilege that falls outside the bounds of acceptable Team Red standards, so it is therefore lumped into the term "CRT" and railed against. I submit that my example is far more common among the "CRT hunters" on the right than the one example you found.
Further, lookup Gender Queer. It is literally a book with graphic depictions of sex, that is put in school libraries. This isn't mischaracterization it is actually happening.
Gender Queer, whatever its faults, is a book recommended for *highschool students*. It is NOT recommended for grades K-3. So bringing it in to a discussion about K-3 instruction is a red herring.
They are allowed to do their jobs. Insinuating CRT because they feel anti-racism is important, or gender bending dogma because they feel gay tolerance is important may or may not be part of their job. That's up to the parent.
No, it isn't, as I tried to explain. In our public school system, parents do not have the EXCLUSIVE right to tell teachers what to teach. It is a COLLECTIVE decision that involves more stakeholders than just parents. Now, advocate all you want that it OUGHT to be only parents who decide what the curriculum in public schools should be. But that isn't what ACTUALLY exists right now.
And what you claim is "gender-bending dogma" is no more than telling kids, in an age-appropriate manner, that if Prince Charming and Snow White can fall in love, then so can Adam and Steve. Is that wrong? Should teachers refuse to even mention or bring up gay relationships, deferring to parents, while simultaneously still having story time about "normal" heterosexual relationships without issue? Why should teachers be in the business of normalizing one type of sexual orientation but stigmatizing another? Isn't that just as much a type of "social engineering" than telling kids "there are 97 genders"?
You are wrong. There is no role for deciding what a child will learn other than the child and the holder of their consumptive choice (the parents).
That is not how our current public school system works. If you want to advocate for a different system, go right ahead.
It isn't for you to decide what parents should or shouldn't allow. That is for the parents. Not you. Not Teachers.
No. And this is just a fundamental disagreement that we have. If the curriculum only caters to what the parents want, then the kids will wind up just being clones of their parents. Students SHOULD, occasionally, be confronted with uncomfortable topics that challenges their assumptions and makes them think. Even if it makes the parents a little bit upset too. That is what a GOOD EDUCATION ought to do. But the parents who are complaining now have such little faith and trust in the ability of the teachers to do their jobs that they are now demanding micromanaging authority to rewrite the curriculum in their image. That is the direction that we are headed, and it's not right in my view.
"It is a collective decision made by the teachers, parents, administrators, school board, legislators, etc."
Only because you are supporting a system that strips the rights from the parents.
I am describing what IS, not what OUGHT TO BE.
"And if you do try and succeed, through collective action, in removing that book not just from your own child's reading list, but from the school entirely, then yes that is a type of censorship of every kid that attends the school."
No it isn't because the kids can still get that content.
Oh c'mon, you are better than that. So Twitter doesn't really "censor" content they don't like because that same content may still be found on Gab or Parler? Yes, that is censorship, when an entity or individual prohibits or suppresses speech or writing that is deemed "subversive of the common good", even if that censorship is not universal across all space and time and only localized to one particular school.
You have to distinguish between what IS and what you think OUGHT TO BE here. It's clear you want a system where teachers are basically servants that do exactly what parents tell them to do. I am not sure you can find that type of system even if all the schools were privatized, because even in a totally private system, there will likely not be every imaginable curriculum available in the marketplace, only those which are most likely to attract paying customers. Parents will still have to compromise to an extent to find the curriculum that most closely aligns with what they want for their kids. And even then, most schools, private or public, would not tolerate parents trying to micromanage every word of the curriculum, JUST LIKE most hospitals would not tolerate patients trying to micromanage their own treatments, JUST LIKE most law firms would not tolerate clients trying to micromanage their own legal strategies. The customers (parents) hire the professionals (teachers, doctors, lawyers) to practice their expertise, but at some point, the customers have to let the professionals DO THEIR JOBS. If you are unwilling to trust ANY teacher to teach your kids, then don't hire any of them and homeschool them. Which should totally be your right to do if you so choose. But if you choose to hire a professional, at some point you have to let the professional exercise their expertise.
"I am using the term "critical thinking" broadly as intended here, as a way to reason through complex problems."
If you parse that data it is not terribly different from what I have said. It is about determining answers based on evidence at hand rather than the assumptions. But even if we were to broaden critical thinking substantially, so what? You have gone from hasty conclusion to question begging. You assume everyone wants this from public education, without explaining why. Go look at the start of Public Education in America. It was started along the Prussian Model, which was designed to create little Bismarks who would dutifully and patriotically serve the state. Later it was expanded under the express belief that Protestants needed to counteract the Catholic Schools.
There is not broad agreement in the public that Public education is here to create people who can vote properly. (Indeed I wholeheartedly reject the notion that the government can ever provide an education on how to vote. That's like thinking Big Agg can teach you how to formulate a healthy diet.) Indeed, the idea that a critical thinker is more prepared to vote than a strong moral thinker is balderdash. No statistic will make Abortion right or wrong. No statistic will make Capital Punishment, or the draft or taxation or whatever right or wrong. These are moral questions, and many if not most Parents believe that is not the proper role of schools.
"I don't think Republicans (yet) want to create a super-narrow curriculum that only caters to the lowest common denominator, but I definitely think we are headed in that direction. Do you disagree? Look at a lot of the comments here, who think that the schools should only "teach the basics"."
Then retract your strawman. If you don't think Republicans are headed in that direction, then trying to equate very specific interventions in the curriculum with creating "so narrow" curriculums. The Republicans say they aren't doing that. You claim to believe them. We can worry about "so narrow" curriculums when they want to ban something actually unobjectionable.
"Very little of what Team Red complains about is actual CRT. Yes you found one example where it is described by name. "
Ah, the no true scotsman fallacy. There are COUNTLESS examples of CRT being found all over the country. They have been shown to you numerous times. Now, has CRT grown to include more than just the theory as defined by some cloistered professor? Sure. That's what happens when hundreds of thousands of people are pushing it in secret. But we can very clearly say what is objectionable:
* Definitions of systemic racism that insist any racial disparity in outcome is racism, rather than caused by anything else.
* Definitions of intersectionality
* Any definition of privilege, or the fact that a person's inherent racial makeup defines unearned advantages that are critical in their success of failure.
These concepts exist BECAUSE of CRT. It is Marxist Dogma, because it assigns people to classes and a role to play in society, just as surely as the original marxism assigned people to working classes with roles to play in revolution.
The concept of White Privilege is not rejected by Team Red, it is rejected by the most of the western world. We don't need it discussed in schools any more than we need Intelligent Design. And this is what I mean by your fallacious reasoning. You have constructed a premise that is unfalsifiable. Any time you see curriculum that you like, that others do not, you can claim "It's just a theory, and people should be exposed to lots of theories because Critical Thinking." It is a universal win button. As I have noted repeatedly, this would allow all sorts of stuff to be disseminated in schools whether it was worthy of a kids time or not.
"No, it isn't, as I tried to explain. In our public school system, parents do not have the EXCLUSIVE right to tell teachers what to teach."
No this is where you are wrong. The fact that you voted in a system or (despite claiming to be a libertarian) consistently carry water for a system that tries to abrogate these rights, Parents have the rights for their children. Unless there is some egregious dereliction of trust, children have the same inalienable rights as you and I, and their legal guardians have those rights in trust.
You could create whatever public system you want, where Doctors opine, and Priests Pontificate, and Teachers dictate. The rights do not change. And if you assign these rights to someone else without their consent, then you are violating their rights.
Unfortunately, we have created this zero sum game where it all has to be hashed out between government, teachers, and parents. That doesn't change the fact that the Parents hold the rights, and a system that thinks parents ought to be overridden by administrators and teachers is evil- as evil as a healthcare system that allows doctors to decide what treatment you will get. And if you think that Teachers have a moral place to override parents just because that is the system in place, you are also wrong.
"No. And this is just a fundamental disagreement that we have. If the curriculum only caters to what the parents want, then the kids will wind up just being clones of their parents. Students SHOULD, occasionally, be confronted with uncomfortable topics that challenges their assumptions and makes them think."
Then stop claiming to be a "Radical Individualist" or "Libertarian". This is not your call to make. Libertarianism is not violating the NAP. A person can be a fundie whackadoodle and as long as they are not violating the NAP, you SHOULD leave them alone.
Seriously man. First of all, what makes you qualified to decide which social engineering outcome is best for all of society? That you think concepts like "White Privilege" and "Institutional Racism" are important racial concepts to discuss makes you about as qualified as someone saying that Intelligent Design is an important concept to teach.
But second of all, that's ok. That is what the basis of Libertarianism is- the understanding that none of us is entitled or qualified to choose the best paths for anyone but our self (or our charges, as in the case of minors).
Feel free to spout on and on about how important concepts of White Privilege are. But stop insisting that you have a say in pushing your voodoo on my kids. Because you don't. And I will back any politician who gives me more leeway in keeping you at arms length, and empowering me to raise my children as I see fit. Because that is what "Radical Individualism" is- the idea that individuals get to do their thing, even if it isn't something I would want them to do.
"Yes, that is censorship, when an entity or individual prohibits or suppresses speech or writing that is deemed "subversive of the common good", even if that censorship is not universal across all space and time and only localized to one particular school."
I think there is a difference between the participants in a system collaborating to determine what will be consumed. For example, Reddit's flagging/liking system hides posts that a community disagrees with and highlights ones that they feel is high value. Is that censorship? Perhaps, but then we have basically said that any time a group of people decides what content will be consumed for some purpose, they are censoring. When families come over to my house and we vote on which boardgame to play, we are censoring. If that's the definition you want to go by then, sure...everything is censoring, and there is nothing wrong with it.
But let's flip this around. Would you agree that choosing a specific curriculum is thus Censoring, because it will also define what is NOT to be taught? If a school decides not to show pornography or not to include Intelligent Design, then it is censorship?
"It's clear you want a system where teachers are basically servants that do exactly what parents tell them to do."
No, I want a system where I have the final say over what my kids will learn. And when it comes to deeply controversial subjects and especially moral frameworks, I want the ability to override teachers who are teaching content I object to. Specifically the voodoo like White Privilege and Gender Bending.
" Parents will still have to compromise to an extent to find the curriculum that most closely aligns with what they want for their kids."
And this is what I find so damn hilarious. In the public system we unfortunately live in, the way that compromise is made is by parents from the local to the Federal level advising, voting and and delegating to representatives the power to determine these curriculums. If you don't like that, spend hours and hours explaining why we need to close down public schools. But you won't- like with pandemic policy or any other public policy, you will spend hours and hours calling republicans deplorables (or charlatans that are duping deplorables) for daring to do exactly what you want- working within the system of local, state and federal government to define the "compromise" position.
This is getting too long, so I'll be brief.
I will repeat that in discussions like this, one must be careful to distinguish between IS and OUGHT. There currently exists a public school system. No one here is happy with it, but that is what we currently have. We OUGHT to have a different system. We can both agree on that.
So, let's talk about the current system. In the current system, no one person has exclusive control over the curriculum. It is a collective decision-making process. That is simply a fact. I am sorry that your preferred system, "where I have the final say over what my kids will learn", is not in operation today. Frankly, your only alternative here is homeschooling. Not even completely privatized schools will give each individual parent your desired level of control over their kids' education. If you really want to micromanage your kids' education that much, and you are so skeptical of teachers teaching something that isn't on your approved list, and you don't think you should have permission from anyone else to change the curriculum for your school, then homeschooling really is your only choice. Which is TOTALLY FINE, but I don't see how homeschooling could possibly scale systemically to a modern nation of 350+ million people.
Furthermore, I will passionately advocate until my dying breath that education is not the same as job training, education is not the same as "learning the basics", and that the goal of any PROPER education, whether it be a public education or a private education, should be to develop the mind of the student to be a better critical thinker, a better moral reasoner, a better creative thinker, simply to be a better person. That is what used to be called a "classical liberal education". And yes I do think that there are many on Team Red nowadays who look down on that idea and view a classical liberal education skeptically as "indoctrination" if it contains topics that they don't agree with. (There are those on Team Blue who also disagree with the concept of a classical liberal education, thinking that it "promotes the patriarchy" or whatnot, and they are also wrong.) So whether we have a public education system or a private education system, either way, a classical liberal education necessarily means exposing students in an age-appropriate and professional way to controversial topics that are sometimes upsetting, that the parents might not like. Just like a properly functioning health care system sometimes means that the patient might experience some pain, a properly functioning *education* system sometimes means that the student experiences some intellectual anguish. Sorry not sorry. A student cannot become a better person if that student does not experience some trials along the way.
If you want an education system that only has job training and "the basics", then that is not education, that is job training, and that is not what I want to see in a mass education system.
They’re so proud of the curriculum they hide it from the parents.
It really is important for you to groom small children, isn’t it? You are one sick pedophile Jeffy. I really hope you’re caught by someone incredibly violent, so you’re properly dealt with.
Public good does not mean 'good for the public'. It is a technical term and you are using it wrong here.
Education is both excludable and rivalrous.
Now, to address the meat of your point - education in certain subjects may be good for the public but that does not mean the education provided by public schools is either good for the public or even any good at all.
Well I am sorry if I used the term wrong.
education in certain subjects may be good for the public but that does not mean the education provided by public schools is either good for the public or even any good at all.
That is most certainly true at some schools, and that's a problem that needs to be corrected. It doesn't mean though that the goal of producing well-rounded critical thinking students should be abandoned though.
Critical theory isn't critical thinking, it's religious dogma to breed hatred, resentment, and autonomic emotional responses that supersede and prevent logical, objective thoughts.
In other words, leftist thinking.
If the curriculum is so narrow that it only appeals to the lowest common denominator, and shies away from anything remotely controversial, then you won't get critical thinkers.
That's not true. That's not true at all. Critical thinking skills can easily be taught without focusing on public controversies. For at least a couple of centuries, people were taught rhetoric and critical thinking skills in the context of material that was hundreds or even over a thousand years old. And they generally turned out significantly better thinkers than our government schools do today. Because, if anything, a grounding in historical works and analyses gave people a stronger base on which to build those skills and avoided the ability of teachers to impose their personal biases on the material.
The much more likely scenario is that people seeking to focus on modern controversies are the ones more eager to impose their conclusions as the right answer.
This is just pure nonsense.
Bill, you write:
" For at least a couple of centuries, people were taught rhetoric and critical thinking skills in the context of material that was hundreds or even over a thousand years old. And they generally turned out significantly better thinkers than our government schools do today."
Say what? You mean those "thinkers" who packed the court house square for the weekly lynching, or meekly or aggressively honored the segregation laws that replaced slavery? Those "thinkers"?
And Joe here is a prime example of the decline in intellectual standards. Presenting ahistorical analyses and outright untruths (no doubt spoonfed him by his professor) to insist that he is the pinnacle of intellectual achievement is what passes in our government schools as "critical thinking".
widespread education is, broadly, a public good
I will be the only one to dispute this. We refuse to consider alternatives to education to the detriment of millions.
You are equivocating. You are using the term "public good" to mean "something that is good for the public"; that is not its economic meaning.
When economists say that government should subsidize "public goods", they are referring to "goods" (=articles of trade) that are both non-excludable and non-rivalrous, and education is neither.
In other words, you want to use public schools to indoctrinate children into becoming compliant citizens in the kind of authoritarian, technocratic, progressive state you want to live in.
well said... homosexuality is REALITY.. any education where reality cannot be mentioned isn't an education at all
"And that is what Team Red wants in this case here. They don't want critical thinkers."
Not Team Red looking to get you fired from your job if you don't parrot the correct talking points.
Wait, I thought Wanda Sykes started the whole “don’t say gay” campaign.
So confusing.
The fact you think they're teaching this stuff proves to everyone you are a complete dumbass.
If they're not teaching it...why the concern?
LibsofTikTok gets heat for the sin of...posting videos shot by teachers who discuss how they teach precisely this stuff.
political opponents in the private sphere
*whispers to self*
political opponents in the private sphere...
political... opponents in the private sphere...
political... opponents... in the private sphere...
political opponents... in the private sphere...
Libertarianism is the only ideology on Earth which expects everyday people to lose sleep when a corporation is "victimized" by the state it accepts funding from.
New troll?
Not even a good one. Redefine libertarianism for a straw man... I have like 4 or 5 trolls muted who already do that here on a pretty regular basis. Are you one of their sock puppets?
Personally I can forgive him for his confusion, based off the faulty assumption that Reason is libertarian.
Yeah, good point.
I'm pretty sure the only libertarian thing here is that they don't censor the shopright and tranny milfs in the UK bots. Freedom of expression, or something.
I think you need to look up "milf" and be a little more careful about how you use it in a sentence...
???
He's right, although he forgot to put "libertarianism" in quotes or qualify it as "Reason-style libertarianism".
There's nothing stupider than a "libertarian" complaining that a corporation is losing special regulatory privilege that none of its other competitors were allowed.
I comety agree.
The problem of a massive set of regulations is who the state chooses to let go or go after. In this case it was state corporatism providing a specific benefit to one company.
Completely *
We’ve reached the point where Reason’s “libertarianism” is more than just annoying to the commentariat, but is actually hurting the cause of liberty with their leftist nonsense.
Imagine being someone in their early 20’s who’s not woke being curious about liberty and Reason is their first exposure to it.
I discovered this luckily in 2001 or so, when it was actually libertarian. Unfortunately, I kind of bought into the post 9-11 jingoism of the neo-cons, even while some of the shit made me fucking queezy. I've mellowed a lot as I've gotten older, and I think a lot of that was due to the old Reason, and the commenters at the time. Since 2008, it's steadily gone downhill and really went around the bend after November 2016. I didn't vote for Trump, but their constant anti-Trump (often indistinguishable from the leftist narrative) really got fucking old. I was hoping after November 2020 it would have improved, and it has, but only marginally. They still spend more time with their hair on fire over the right, then they do over the actual authoritarianism of the left.
TDS is real. And I disagree that it’s gotten better since then. No coverage of political prisoners, Project Veritas, etc. They decided the day after the election to jump on “The Cleanest Election in History” narrative and have ignored anything that’s contradicted it since. They repeatedly lie about “censorship” in schools, while claiming that actual censorship by social media isn’t censorship, apparently completely ignorant that there is more to the ideals of free speech than First Amendment violations. They’ve lied repeatedly about this bill. They call Republicans White Nationalists with no basis.
I could go on if you’d like.
It's gotten a little better, not markedly so, but less Trump had every day, and occasionally Biden bad articles. But yeah it leaves a lot to be desired. They covered Gitmo Terrorist harder than they've covered the January 6th protestors.
Obviously subjective, but I don’t think it’s gotten better.
"They still spend more time with their hair on fire over the right, then they do over the actual authoritarianism of the left."
This x 100.
I was noticing this the other day. They are social lefties. That's alright with me- if they want to push organic, gender bending nonsense in their friend circles, have at it as long as you don't violate the NAP.
But the attempts to drive all their leftist causes into the libertarian debate merely serves the purposes of the two big parties. Those parties use these Kulture Warz issues to keep people divided. Rather than engage in the Kulture Warz, these people want to constantly say things like "To be sure school choice and all that whatever, BUT here are the reasons all you people should share the moral proclivities of us here on the coasts." It is completely counter productive.
They are servants of leftist totalitarianism playing the role of "objective" occasional (impotent) opposition.
Reason is no different than FoxNews in this regard, though FN at least has Tucker on still.
They will never significantly criticize or expose the left on important issues. They oppose what they are allowed to oppose to maintain the slightest mask of non alignment.
Make no mistake: Reason's sole purpose is to gaslight people into accepting leftist/establishment totalitarianism as compatible with libertarianism.
I mean this is what, the fiftieth article (I exaggerate a bit) of Shackleford going ape shit over what really shouldn't be that controversial of a bill, don't talk to kids under 8 about sex, any sex. They can't discuss homo or heterosexuality. It's a blanket ban on talking about sex to prepubescent children by state employees. When did we get to the point that that is controversial?
don't talk to kids under 8 about sex, any sex.
That's not what the bill does and you know it.
That is what Team Red wants you to think the bill does. But it bans all discussion about "gender identity and sexual orientation" even if it has nothing to do with sexual intercourse.
Cite?
What's he lying about now?
How does sexual identity and gender not have to do with sex? You fucking moron. Fuck, shouldn't have unmuted your stupid shit. That was the biggest fucking reach of the day, and earlier I got called a neo-con warmongerer, so that is saying something.
How does sexual identity and gender not have to do with sex?
"Prince Charming and Snow White kiss and fall in love." There, that's a discussion of sexual identity and gender that has nothing to do with sex, sexual intercourse, genitals, or anything graphic. And that's banned now in Florida for 3rd graders. Because they don't want the analogous statement for gays - "Adam and Steve kiss and fall in love" - to be even discussed in class, even if there is no discussion of sex.
Reading sleeping beauty isn't banned in schools dumbass.
Not every kiss is about sex, you gibbering sociopath. Millions upon millions of kisses each day are about greeting, friendship, affection and love. None of which have to involve sex. In fact, unless you're frenching while having sex, no kiss is about sex.
And romance doesn't have to be about sex either.
Dammit, you're such a disgusting freak.
Show me an analysis of where this is stated, and I will show you someone mischaracterizing the law.
You can show a video where two dads are talking about safety. You can read a book about snow white. What you cannot do is start a discussion about WHY those two dads chose each other instead of a man and a woman.
And by the way this not somehow functionally impossible. It was done when I was in school all the time.
"Mrs Crabapple? What is god"
"Oh that's an interesting question, Jimmy. Talk to your parents about it tonight...Now moving on..."
"Mr Smith? Why do girls have bumps on their chests?"
"Joe, this isn't appropriate for the classroom. If you want to know this, talk to your parents."
"Prince Charming and Snow White kiss and fall in love." There, that's a discussion of sexual identity and gender that has nothing to do with sex, sexual intercourse, genitals, or anything graphic.
Things I've learned about Jeff:
A) He doesn't know what the word 'discuss' means.
B) He hasn't read Snow White.
C) Derivative of the above, wouldn't be able to pass a 3rd Grade book report on Snow White even if there actually were a school anywhere (Magic City?) that "taught" Snow White.
Still undecided as to whether he's able to tie his own shoes, whether his mother does it for him, or whether it's easier on everyone to just buy him velcro shoes.
And by the way this not somehow functionally impossible. It was done when I was in school all the time.
You're letting his straw man win. There is no lesson in Snow White. No school *teaches* Snow White. Some school(s) somewhere may read it, but there is no lesson to be taught besides, maybe, "Don't eat poisoned apples." Even if they do read Snow White, it's a book with 10 characters (excluding a talking mirror), 7 of whom are dudes who live in the same household.
Keep in mind when CRT first came up, Lying Jeffy informed us all that his school didn’t just teach Manifest Destiny as a historical fact, but that Manifest Destiny was morally correct and that it was really god’s will.
I’d be willing to bet his school didn’t really teach that, but that he’s an idiot.
I doubt his school really
"Keep in mind when CRT first came up, Lying Jeffy informed us all that his school didn’t just teach Manifest Destiny as a historical fact, but that Manifest Destiny was morally correct and that it was really god’s will."
I remember that, but I thought it was Shrike. I could be wrong, same shit different pile.
As Manifest Destiny was cultural belief was taught from the 1840's to the 1890's, Lying Jeffy must be at least 135. Maybe older.
"Prince Charming and Snow White kiss and fall in love."
In your world, Jeff, this phrase would be broken down by the teacher into far more detail than the young child would understand. For example:
Prince Charming kisses Snow White - yet Snow White is asleep. Does she really give consent under those circumstances? What about the seven men she lives with? Is Snow White really an analogy for sex workers? Did Prince Charming roofy Snow White and take advantage of her? What percentage of the seven dwarfs may be gay or trans? How does that affect their living situation? Is Doc the resident abortionist? Is sleepy a drug consuming burden on the group?
Inquisitive children in k-3 need to be exposed to these truths!
Besides. Who reads Snow White in school. Most kids see it as a movie. By Disney. With their parents.
And, guess what, it's allowed under the Florida law.
earlier I got called a neo-con warmongerer
Trying to talk some sense into Nardz?
No some handle I've never seen before who stated I've had a war boner for months and been jingoistic and calling for a NFZ for months.
Nah, "Kip Barebacked" or something, sounded like a half dozen "in for a week" commenters from the last six months. I muted the midwit as soon as I saw it making both sides of the same argument just to troll one day.
Yeah, pretty sure that Kip bloke is the latest incarnation of Tulpa.
compelling argument soldier, especially the "fucking moron" and "stupid shit" observations. Based on your sensitivity to personal attacks it's good to see you focus on the facts.
Weird how the only ones posting the actual law are the ones you disagree with.
Why the fuck should fucking teachers be talking to kids under 8(!) about “gender identity and sexual orientation”? You just start from the premise that if they’re not talking about balls deep penetration, the rest is ok. It’s not.
Leave the kids alone. What the fuck is wrong with you?
I know, right? Who is the monster who decided that a story about a Prince Charming and a Snow White kissing and falling in love was appropriate for little kids?
That is a demonstration of sexual orientation right there - a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman falling in love. But we don't think of that as a story about "sexual orientation" though, because heterosexual relationships are considered "normal". So having story time with kids where a prince and a princess kiss and fall in love is not the least bit controversial or taboo or outrageous or "grooming". But it is just as much an illustration of sexual orientation as if it was a story about Adam and Steve falling in love and kissing. But if any teacher tried to have story time with little kids about that, there would be hell to pay. Because THAT story is "inappropriate for kids", "too sexual", "gross", the teacher would be "inserting politics into the classroom", "grooming kids", you name it. Why the double standard?
So that is what the Don't Say Gay law is really about. It is about codifying the double standard into law explicitly. Heterosexual relationships are fine and normal and no one will complain because no one thinks they are "discussions of sexual orientation or gender identity". But the moment Adam and Steve have a relationship in a story, then that is banned! DeSantis must save kids from horrifying stories about two men falling in love! But a story about a man and a woman falling in love? No problem. Because that's "normal".
So if the concept of sexual orientation or gender identity is going to be brought up at all - which it is, it's just inevitable, the concepts are ubiquitous - then there should not be a double standard. Either any (legal) relationship is fair game, or none are. Otherwise, what you're really doing is using the law to teach kids, either explicitly or implicitly, that some relationships are "normal" and "acceptable", while other relationships are "controversial" and "taboo" and "inappropriate". Is that what you want? Do you think the state of Florida should teach kids - either explicitly or implicitly - that heterosexual relationships are the normative standard, and all other relationships are abnormal and weird and taboo?
That’s a lot of words when “I want to groom children.” would suffice.
Since there is no discussion of the private parts of either Prince Charming or Snow White, their sexual proclivities, or their sexual identities, you don't know whether they are "a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman falling in love", you're just assuming that. And that's the point of the Florida law: keep discussion of sexual anatomy and sexual practices out of the K-3 classrooms.
" know, right? Who is the monster who decided that a story about a Prince Charming and a Snow White kissing and falling in love was appropriate for little kids?"
What idiot provided this talking point that you read and truly think is a massive "gotcha"?
Bullshit. Kids that age are not mature or even neurologically ready for any of that. Their brains aren’t developed enough to fully grasp intangible concepts.
Just leave them alone you predatory obese pervert. It’s that simple.
Yeah Scott has to mischaracterize the bill as "Florida's so-called "Don't Say Gay" bill, which limits and even censors discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity in public schools."
He omits the relevant fact that the bill applies only to grades K thru 3 in public schools. If we can believe the polling the bill is supported by majorities not only of Republicans and independents but Democrats as well. It's really a no brainer. Guess that's why Scott can't figure it out.
Anyone who thinks that five year olds should be exposed to any of this sick shit should ne savagely beaten.
If a private company wants to create a company town and BECOME THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT, then they will become bound by the rules that all governments must follow. That's not restricting private property rights; that's restricting government.
Disney World is basically an incorporated city. Since when do government get to assert direct rule over incorporated cities? What right do they have to bypass the county structure to punish cities directly for not genuflecting to the governor?
The state taking over a city is NOT restricting government, it's consolidating government.
Not sure about Florida, but all cities in Michigan are granted authority from the state. This isn’t a State vs. Federal comparison.
Does brandy not know how states and cities work?
I'm pretty sure that all incorporated cities have to follow the laws of the state they are incorporated in, as well as most federal laws. Otherwise, I am pretty sure that there were several laws and regulations passed under Bullock that my town would gladly ignore.
We'll, except that 'basically' means ' not actually'.
They should have incorporated. But they didn't. And even may not have been able too - Disney, by itself, would have been too small to incorporate in AZ which requires 1,500 residents and the total packet to 'not be mostly rural'. Given that Disney has *no one* living there and the whole park is . . . you know, a park, I doubt they'd have been able to incorporate.
And they didn't swing the Las Vegas Strip exemption at the state level either.
Sucks to be them. I guess they are going to die on this hill.
Fact check; find out what's in the bill BEFORE you pass it!
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022C/3
This is not directed solely at Disney, though the Reedy Creek District is the government arm of the Florida part.
According to the Department of Economic Opportunity’s (DEO) Special District Accountability Program Official List of Special Districts, there are 1,843 special districts, 1,227 independent special districts and 616 dependent districts.
According to DEO’s Special District Accountability Program Official List of Special Districts, there are 132 active independent special districts that were created by special act before November 5, 1968.29 Of those 132 districts, 126 appear to operate under a charter that was reestablished, re-ratified, or otherwise reconstituted by a special act or general law after November 5, 1968. The following six districts appear to operate pursuant to a charter, which predates the 1968 Florida Constitution and was
not reestablished, re-ratified, or otherwise reconstituted by a special act or general law after November 5, 1968:
Bradford County Development Authority, Bradford County.
Sunshine Water Control District, Broward County.30
Eastpoint Water and Sewer District, Franklin County.
Hamilton County Development Authority, Hamilton County.
Marion County Law Library, Marion County.
Reedy Creek Improvement District, Orange and Osceola Counties
The Reason people think that the First Amendment was written to protect the right of government employees to say whatever they want. All while using other people's money.
No, because they opposed govt employees not signing gay marriage certificates.
If Disney didn't want to get into politics, they should have stayed out of politics.
They should try this crap in China.
They do. They'll gladly criticize Florida and US politicians in China.
https://twitter.com/DrMichaelLBrown/status/1514770851563859981?t=vv1K2FCvqZJTKZ79eNoIow&s=19
While Disney fights the falsely-called "Don't Say Gay Bill" in FL, Warner Bros. has caved to Chinese demands and removed a 6-second gay dialogue from its new Fantastic Beasts movie to air in China. Read more in my latest here:
[Link]
DeSantis Calls for End of Walt Disney World's Self-Rule
Scott, now do Jeffrey Epstein's private island.
He wishes.
Wrong type of naughty bits for Scott.
I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that anyone with those tastes could have been accommodated.
But we’ll just have to wait for the FBI to finish their investigation before we know for sure.
we’ll just have to wait for the FBI to finish their investigation...
Keep waiting.
The /sarc is understood.
Considering this is what "private industry freedom" has led to, you have a lot of talking to do to convince me even more of it would be a good idea.
"Culture war conservatism leads to less private industry freedom for the pettiest of reasons."
Technically, yes - but it's not like anyone else who isn't a large corporation was going to get the same treatment.
Disney got special treatment - special treatment because they played ball with the politicians.
They do 't wanna play ball anymore so the pols left and took their ball with them.
Do 't expect us to be on your side here Rusty, you weren't advocating nearly as hard for an expansion of Disney's treatment to others as you have for Disney to keep it.
The law only forbids discussion of sexual subjects by students in grades K-3, in other words, kids 8 years old and younger. No child that age is interested in sex or talking about it at all, unless some adult is grooming him or her.
Guess what crime Disney employees commit at 10 times the rate of the general population?
To hell with them.
I wonder if Reason is realizing just how much they've misjudged the sentiments of their audience based on the comments. Or if it's possible the comments aren't actually representative of their audience.
Reason has been pointedly ignoring us for years.
They pretend to write, and we pretend to read them.
I strongly suspect Reason is supported by several large donors, rather than their subscribers. They'd have to be. They've been peeling off one slap in the face after another to their readers for years. I doubt they have enough readers left to make it worthwhile to publish a fortune cookie, let alone a magazine.
If you'd asked me who Judd Legum was prior to 04.07.22, I'd have guessed "Mr. Bean's real name?" What I really learned, rather conclusively, on 04.07.22 is that Robby and Reason earn their paychecks by White Knighting for Charles Koch against the ravages of Mr. Bean on Twitter.
Don't confuse *us* with their audience.
@A Thinking Mind
I don't think that the comments of this article could possibly represent the majority of Reason's audience. Even though it is unfortunately on the rise, I do not think all this paranoid conspiracy-theory nonsense about "pedophiles" and "groomers" being everywhere represents a mainstream position yet. I am appalled that so many people believe this garbage, but I have to keep reminding myself that they're just a few crazies.
In general I think that LGBT rights in our society have progressed enough that most people can recognize the conflation of LGBT rights and pedophilia for the bigoted nonsense that it is.
@jdgalt
The reason it's called the "Don't Say Gay" law is that it is so vaguely written that it classifies mere mention of the existence of gay people as a "sexual subject." This is by design. The whole point of the law is to ban discussion perfectly tame and harmless topics by creating fear that they might fall under its excessively wide definition of "sexual."
Telling children that men can marry other men, women can marry other women, and that trans people exist is not in any way a discussion of a sexual subject. It is possible to discuss these topics without mention of sex, the same way that it is possible to tell children that men can marry women and that cis people exist without mentioning sex. This law is written as if that was not the case.
Furthermore, while no child that age is interested in having sex themselves, many children that age are curious about where babies come from. So your assertion that no child that age is interested in discussing sex unless they are being groomed is also false. I clearly remember asking my parents where babies came from when I was in first grade.
Your assertion that Disney employees commit sex crimes at an unusually high rate also appears to be baseless. I just wasted a whole bunch of Googling time trying to substantiate it and couldn't.
The government deciding what government employees on the clock can say to an audience the employees only have because the government coerces the attendance of the audience is not "censorship" of the employees in any remotely meaningful sense of the word.
There are many things a libertarian can and should object to in the public schools setup, but employees being restricted by their employer as to what they can say to a captive audience during work hours is not one of them.
Especially when such speech would get a random person’s ass kicked if parents heard them say it to their five year old.
I have to wonder what Reason's reaction would be if we were seeing schools push heterosexuality over gay and transgenderism.
"You see, the Supreme Court made a very silly judgement..."
I suspect Reason would shit a brick.
Ironically, that would actually be much more like what they're claiming this bill actually is.
Florida's so-called "Don't Say Gay" bill,
Shackford, when you continue to so-call this bill by language that does not appear in the legislation, you reveal yourself to be a non-serious contributor to the conversation.
Agree. Don't use their language. Rename the bill the "Prohibit Sex Ed for K-4 bill" or something.
When you use their twisted language you are already half way to losing the battle.
Doesn't the bill have an actual name or number to call it by for an attempt at objectivity?
That’s not how you “Reason”.
It does.
"An act relating to parental rights in education"
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF
So, let's get this straight, Disney has a carve out that no one else does, and they chose to attack the state, and now the state says, okay, you remember that carve out you have that no one else gets, well you now have to follow the same fucking law as everyone else, and Scott has a problem with this? Why?
I suppose you could make the free speech and chilling effect, but that would mean everyone else who has had to live by the rules were subject to a pre-existing chilling effect.
So, let's get this straight, Disney has a carve out that no one else does, and they chose to attack the state
If you really want to get this straight, Disney is attacking the parents of schoolchildren in Florida specifically but, arguably, more generally. They're based in CA, don't provide education services, and, pointedly, have a pretty free hand in Reedy Creek. DeSantis didn't 'pen and phone' the law into existence. The voters of Florida elected him and state representatives to do what they did and Disney doesn't like them for it and for no real business reason at all.
If this were framed correctly, Disney would be Terry McAulife'd. But the MSM are all in favor of grooming.
Maybe call it the "Anti-grooming bill" !!
I'm just trying to still comprehend how we got to the point where forbidding government employees from discussing sexual topics (of any sort) with prepubescent children became controversial. I support adults doing whatever the fuck they want with other consenting adults, but I'm really not sure how we ever arrived at the point adults thought let's teach kindergartners about it. It's the same with CRT, how did we get to the point where it's okay to separate people by skin color, and demonize a whole group, simply due to genetics they have no control over.
Call me a naive X gener, but I'm pretty sure neither of those would have been acceptable when I was growing up. No, it wasn't necessarily better, but fuck!
We use to celebrate cultural days, and celebrate how cultures meld, now it's bad. I once opposed gay marriage, now I'm happy for them, but I don't want them telling my kids about it (nor their heterosexual teachers doing the same thing).
I mean Disney is bragging that half of their characters are going to be other than cis-hetero, because millennials are 40% more likely than previous generations to identify as something other than cis-hetero. Well considering that prior generations that number was only 10% at most, that means for millennials that number is a whopping 14%. Not sure how 14% equals 50%. I really don't care if Elsa is a muff diver or not (hell I've seen pretty hot fan art involving just that that I've jerked off to) but why do they feel the need to make such a big fucking deal out of it, and also over represent it?
I've remarked that I sound a lot like my Dad as my kids have grown older, maybe it's time to wear flip flops with black ankle socks while wearing shorts and screaming at kids to get off my lawn, but I didn't think I was getting that old (I'll only be 46 this summer).
I once opposed gay marriage, now I'm happy for them, but I don't want them telling my kids about it (nor their heterosexual teachers doing the same thing).
Why not? What are you afraid of? Why do you want teachers to regard gay marriage as "taboo" or "controversial" or somehow akin to "talking about sex" with little kids?
The bill doesn't let teachers do that dumbass. Teachers in grade school don't teach morality or adult level societal discourse.
Why is everything you say a fucking lie?
What are you afraid of?
It's not fear. It's lamentation that my children or my children's children are going to have to murder a bunch of people, people like Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein, in order to enjoy liberties we, all of us, currently take for granted. Liberties like riding a roller coaster, floating down a lazy river, or eating cotton candy and wearing mouse ears without being groomed or preyed upon by people trying to normalize Jeffrey Epstein's or Harvey Weinstein's behavior.
No one save for some NAMBLA freaks is trying to normalize Jeffrey Epstein's behavior. This is just ridiculous.
And those NAMBLA freaks on Epstein's guest list happening to be some of the most powerful people in the nation and deeply entrenched in progressive politics is purely coincidental and nothing to be alarmed about.
Now, if my kid can consent to gender reassignment surgery, what else can they consent to without telling me?
No one save for some NAMBLA freaks is trying to normalize Jeffrey Epstein's behavior.
NAMBLA freak or not, even if that's not what they're trying to do, that's what opposing the law, by their own framing of it, does. Even if I were just trying to lower the cost of buying private islands, unless I'm somehow concomitantly enhancing the eradication of Epstein-esque culture or behavior, I'm normalizing the buying of private islands to rape children. And HB1557 and the framing of it by retards like Scott and yourself, isn't even as tangential about buying private islands. You've unequivocally framed it as 'Schools/Public employees/people have a right to teach kids sexuality without parents' permission.' There is, arguably, a narrow libertarian case to defend a fraction of what you're arguing in favor of. No one, but no one, arguing against HB1557 is making that case.
“Why not?”
Why?
"Why not? What are you afraid of? Why do you want teachers to regard gay marriage as "taboo" or "controversial" or somehow akin to "talking about sex" with little kids?"
Why would a teacher need the approval of fucking 8 year olds about their lifestyles?
And to clarify, I don't care what someone does or doesn't do, I don't think it's the job of teachers to discuss their home/sex/private life with 8 year olds. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fucking creepy. Really, why would a grown up need to discuss their private life in school? Really? Who does that? How does that help kids learn to read, write or do sums? Fuck, I just can't even fucking comprehend that shit.
"Oh you're afraid."
No, it's just not fucking appropriate fucking subject matter for K-3 grade, and they fucking work for us parents. They're fucking employees. Shit, when I was in the service, we couldn't discuss politics in uniform either, because it wasn't our fucking place to do that. Chaplains aren't even allowed to fucking proselytize. And I see no problem with those rules either. If you want to wear a rainbow flag, go for it. If you're polyamorous with a lover for everyone of the alphabet soups of sexual orientation, more power to you (unless one of those is MAP) but you don't need to bring it up in the classroom. There is no point. You are there to fucking teach them the basics. Focus more on why Tommy can't read, than on worrying if Tommy might actually want to be Tammy. Do your fucking job and leave the rest of the bullshit until after you're off the fucking clock.
leave the rest of the bullshit until after you're off the fucking clock.
Where you would be arrested for doing the same thing.
I'm just trying to still comprehend how we got to the point where forbidding government employees from discussing sexual topics (of any sort) with prepubescent children became controversial. I support adults doing whatever the fuck they want with other consenting adults
I hate to be a pedant but it's in support of your point: the bill doesn't forbid any/all discussions of such topics in K-3, it forbids them *without* parent/board/FLDOE knowledge, consent, or approval.
Remember the absurdity of affirmative consent? Apparently, "Consent affirmatively or I'll teach your children to do it." is what they meant.
That's the worst part. If you have to hide what you're teaching to my kids, there's something wrong there. I'm their fucking parent not you. Get over yourself.
Not exactly.
There are over a thousand special districts. The law in question has a specific effect on six of them, one of which is Disney.
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022C/3C/BillText/Filed/PDF
So, it's six that have special carve outs. Hardly better.
> Disney has a carve out that no one else does
FALSE! Every incorporate city int he fucking state has that same carve out. That's what incorporated means. An incorporated city has self rule. They get their own city council and can pass city ordinances and can have their own police and all that stuff.
How many other corporations were allowed to call themselves an incorporated city? Fuck, that is almost as big a reach as ChemJeff above saying discussing sexual identity and gender identity doesn't have to do with sex. Can you make an intellectually honest argument?
discussing sexual identity and gender identity doesn't have to do with sex.
It doesn't necessarily have to do with discussing graphic details of sexual intercourse, or genitals, or anything that would be fairly considered "grooming" for pedophilia.
Saying "Prince Charming and Snow White kiss and fall in love" is implicitly discussing their respective sexual orientations - they are both straight and they both love each other. But there is no discussion of sexual intercourse or "sex talk". That would be banned in principle in the Florida law. Of course we both know that heterosexual sexual orientations won't ever be banned because no one finds those controversial. Only the gay stuff will be banned. Hence, "don't say gay".
Do you have an intelligent argument? Maybe say how bears yelling gay from a trunk would be allowed by this bill?
This is why it's a carve out. We haven't had many corporations being a city outside of coal mine country. But when you're incorporated as a city you get to rule yourself.
Who rules Disneyland in California? It's NOT the governor! It's the city of Anaheim and the county of Orange. So why does DeSantis think he can play king and directly impose his rule on Disneyworld?
Besides, this is about what is being taught in schools. Does Disneyworld even have a school system? This is just about DeSantis trying to swing his dick around to show off how big he imagines it is. He's Florida's Putin.
No, he's more like Florida's Huey Long. A right-wing populist, who does not care for principles or ideals, he will do what the right-wing mob demands.
Good thing the homos and trannys have a sophist little shitweasel poof like you to white knight for them. And of course you hate DeSantis. He’s actually a decent governor. Not like your heroes, Cuomo, Newsom, Murphy, Whitmer, Inslee, etc..
I’m sure your NAMBLA cell is having a big sad over this anti grooming law.
So it is a special carve out in Florida. Thanks for playing, Marve tell him what he's won.
A lifetime supply of Rice-a-roni, the San Francisco treat.
*ChemJeff stop trying to get my attention. Your a fucking gray box, because you fucking lie.
"He's Florida's Putin."
That is some seriously strained analogy there.
soldier, publicly disagreeing with a bill passed by the legislature is not an "attack on the state". I don't throw around the term fascism much or at all, but that statement can be safely categorized as basic fascism.
There is a sizable group of libertarians who believe that any reduction in taxes and regulations makes a country more libertarian.
To these people, if government carves out special exemptions or grants special privileges for big political donors, that's not corruption, it's just a step towards libertarianism.
Crony capitalism with government enforced non-competition VS. libertarianism and personal freedom and self responsibility, what’s the difference?
Culture war conservatism leads to less private industry freedom for the pettiest of reasons
So now Reason's position is that the government should create tax and regulation carve-outs for favored businesses?
Now do stadiums, Reason. Or the Olympics.
Hmm, gonna have to research this. This feels like the kind of thing that Democrats would have supported, and supported vociferously in less contentious times.
Oh yes... OH yess.... ohhh yess....
OH yes... OOOOOH YESSS...
Interesting times make interesting bedfellows.
Libertarians now believe big businesses deserve special rules written just for them?
Seems odd.
And if an (R) governor wants to remove those special rules, that's......less private industry freedom?
Seems double odd.
If anyone is interested in hearing a real libertarian bash Reason (not by name unfortunately) over their coverage of Elon Musk and social media censorship, listen to Dave Smith’s “Part of the Problem” podcast from Saturday.
Pretty good. He still, like many other libertarians, impugn Republicans for not having a (good enough) plan and glosses over the fact that it's not just 'muh preyevut korporashunz!' but corporations colluding among themselves, directedly, and with the government. His point about a restaurant serving bad food isn't "just the free market at work" is pretty good, but he ignores the seeming paradox that, it turns out, fascism is libertarianism's Achille's Heel.
He used to make a joke about Gary Johnson being an wishy-washy abolitionist and sending the message "Well, you know, ending slavery *could* be a good idea..." but, it turns out that he and a bunch of other libertarians really, really would like to fight fascism and regulatory capture but, well, they're just private corporations enjoying overt and literal protection for blocking and screening of offensive material (while facilitating no-shit riots in the streets) and, well, we don't really have a plan for fighting fascism. So whaddyagonna do?
Yeah, I don’t agree with his solutions, or lack their of. But I at least understand what his current goal is: he is in the Mises caucus, and he’s trying to take back the Libertarian Party from the liberaltarians.
But he’s also honest in his observations. He acknowledged the effect government coercion has had on censorship in social media, that it’s wrong, and pointed out how stupid some libertarians are for pretending it’s a good thing.
Yeah, I don’t agree with his solutions, or lack their of.
I give him props for spending 1/4-1/3 of the show for impugning Progressives and Neoliberalcons and half that or less for impugning Republicans, but the 'Republicans don't have a plan.' argument, from a libertarian of all people, falls flat. Especially when there's a decent case that no Republicans are proposing the usual libertarian stance of 'Nobody should have any plans for controlling other's speech *is* the plan.' generally, or in earnest, as much as 'We need to keep S230, just make it do what we want.'
Why does Disney feel the need to take any side in the culture war?
Especially as it’s an organization that appeals to families with children.
The great majority of American families would not want their children eight years and younger exposed to any kind a sexual education, much less this leftist political indoctrination.
Disney is playing with fire.
And they got burned.
Seems like it would be a good business decision for them to stay out of this kind of political culture war
Because one of them has a pansexual child. You monster.
I've heard that Disney's former CEO, Bob Eisner, had political ambitions. So during his tenure, he tried to cater to the left by pushing the woke ideology into Disney properties.
Why does Disney feel the need to take any side in the culture war?
Probably because they're part of the same club that's bleeding billions of dollars to save Twitter from that monster Elon Musk. I seem to remember some words like "well-funded cabal", but that might have been from a wacky conspiracy theory blog.
“The great majority of American families…..”
And then there’s chemjeff, contrarian collectivist.
Don't say "Don't say gay", Rusty.
Scott sure does get less libertarian when dick sucking is involved ...
If you are more concerned about the motives behind the changes than the actual outcome achieved then what you claim are your ideals are not really your ideals.
Libertarians my ass. Shackford is a progressive statist in service to the Democrat Party.
I disagree. In a vaccum, eliminating the Rady Creek Improvement District might be a good idea (there is something appealing about letting the owner of land be able to contract for its own 'government services' for that land; on the other hand, the fact that the state is choosing winners and losers by giving that ability to Disney but not, say, Universal is unappealing). However, I can't get past the motivation: to punish an entity for exercising its right to free speech.
The government can't fine people for their speech, but politicians can craft a law that increases taxes on only a single entity in retribution for its speech. Those are just two different ways to do the same thing. And I REALLY don't want progressives to learn that trick. "Hey, Facebook, it would be a real shame if we amended Section 230 to not apply to social media companies that also manufacture VR headsets, so howse abouts you ban all discussion about Hunter Biden?"
Government is revoking a special corporate privilege. That privilege should never have been granted in the first place, but even the original, feeble justification for it is eliminated by Disney's actions.
Damn it Shackford. I know this issue hits close to home, but can't you at least argue in good faith? This quote betrays you: "... which limits and even censors discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity in public schools."
That completely glosses over the the issue in the law and purposely makes it seem as bad as possible from a libertarian pov.
So, why did you leave out the following: "for grades K through 3"? Is it because that might make people think the law is a good thing? Or at least provide a reasonable basis for discussion?
No, you just join in with the purposeful obfuscation. Why? Do you really think that discussing advanced sexual issues like gender identity is a good idea for 1st graders?
The real solution of course is to do away with public education. But until then, parents have a right to make sure their kids are actually getting an age appropriate education.
Christopher Hitchens:
Something Reason has gotten increasingly worse at over the years.
And that's sugar coating it.
Facts: Ex-con intends to commit strong arm robbery, takes proprietor's weapon from him, shoots at innocent bystander, kills proprietor with own weapon in a shootout, robs the store, and leaves. Confesses to the crime when police catch up to him when he's crashed his car and is bleeding out from a GSW.
"Reason" *drink*: Ex-con intends to commit strong arm robbery. There's a struggle. Gun goes off. Proprietor dies. Ex-con turns, shoots at bystander, and leaves. Surrenders to police.
Wouldn't it be more along the lines of: ex con, wrongly convicted, who lost his job because he couldn't afford bale, is forced to rob store. Racist Indian properties confronts and threatens this father of three with a gun. Poor thief is forced to defend himself, kills propertier in self defense. Some shots were fired. Police pursue him in illegal and dangerous high speed chase. Cops then kill unarmed suspect (other than the gun he had) and all are cleared of charges because cops bad and racists.
Also there will be a follow up story about Trump supporting the cops, and how this shows how wrong the cops were.
Maybe with a picture of one of the off duty cops wearing a "gasp" MAGA hat.
Props on returning good faith, or lack thereof, in turn. I was striving for a 'no faith required' interpretation.
A lot of gay rights groups are against these attacks. They are trying to get away from trans activism.
Seattle's "Don't Say Straight" bill.
What if the LGBTQ youth in question doesn't want to be affirmed in that identity?
*Removes Jesus mask to reveal Dick Dastardly face*
Drat! Double-drat! And triple-drat! My conservative Christian plot to convert Seattle K-3 students to heterosexuality is foiled again!
Does that conversion therapy involve chemicals with life-long, irreversible consequences? If not, then tough luck.
I look forward to the Reason article about this political theater.
Is reason arguing for special and specific protections for only specific corporate partners again? What happened to treating everyone equally if you're the government?
Reason continues to pretend they are Libertarian rather than leftist light.
I can remember when they were a great magazine instead of the crap they have degenerated into.
I assume being popular with their leftist friends nearby is more important than Libertarian principles.
Immigration, weed, and butt sex. Since weed is somewhat legal, they’ve decided to expand on the butt sex to include children.
Until a couple of decades ago, Democrats and Republicans were united against "immigration, weed, and butt sex", while libertarians generally favor allowing all three as part of a libertarian society.
Somewhere along the line, Reason forgot that legal "immigration, weed, and butt sex" are not actually libertarian policies or preferences, but mere side effects of having a libertarian society. Reason writers now have simply joined progressives on a bunch of superficial policy preferences within a progressive social welfare state.
"...and even censors discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity..." in the context of K-3 education.
There, I fixed it for you. This begs the question of who is being censored. Obviously it's teachers, who, by the way, do not have First Amendment rights in their capacity as public employees. Outside of their jobs, they can say as they like, but inside them, they have to obey rules on content.
They really shouldn’t be talking about this shit with other people’s children outside of school either.
And absolutely not without parent's permission. That shit would get us non-public-union plebs featured on Dateline and arrested.
Simple solution. Don’t waste your money at Disney World. There any many natural wonders in this country that are far more intriguing and educational to visit, compared to this idiotic fantasy park.
There are 175 state parks in Florida.
There are 11 national parks in Florida.
I wrote a blog post about the Parental Rights in Education law which is about much more than just teaching human sexuality to 5-7 year olds. In my opinion, the law is quite reasonable and understandable. It's no wonder it enjoys such wide-spread support.
Disney World is essentially an incorporated city. That is all. All incorporated cities have "self rule". That's what it means. Also, unincorported cities are towns are NOT ruled by the state, but by the county they are in.
DeDantis has a burr up his ass and wants to skip the whole incorporation thing and directly rule over Disney World himself as an autocrat. That's not how it works. He doesn't have the power to do that to a city, and thus he does not have the power to do that to Disney World.
This is stupid kulturwar. Imagine him doing this to a city that decided not to enforce "don't say gay". Would he go around disbanding those cities and invoking direct rule over them? This is silly. He's pandering to the pearl clutchers.
WDW is not 'essentially' an incorporated city, and it can never be one, since it exists within two separate counties.
DeSantis, and the legislatures involved have already made it clear that they want control returned to those respective counties. But don't let easily obtained facts get in the way of your dishonest bullshit.
Direct rule is not the response to local authorities who refuse to enforce State law either. Removal and replacement is.
Pearl clutching is going on to be sure, just not in the way that your fevered mind imagines.
Stupidly wrong. Incorporated cities vote for their elected leaders.
This is stupid kulturwar.
This much is true, with left wingers both initiating and defending it.
Would he go around disbanding those cities and invoking direct rule over them? This is silly.
The fact that he's not actually doing this shows how silly the belief is.
He's pandering to the pearl clutchers.
This must be a reference to those afraid Disney will lose its special status. The horror!
And it was disney who entered the culture war voluntarily.
Disney actually wasn't going to say anything until a few activists made a big deal out of them not saying anything. Then they decided to go full bore into the fray. Their first response was better. You don't have to take a stance on everything, your job is to make profits for your shareholders not weigh in on what really isn't that controversial if explained honestly. Really we are talking about teaching kids about sexuality before they even understand what sex is, and giving teachers permission to do that without the parents knowing. And people are defending that. In the words of dementia Joe "C'mon man".
The more I see people like ChemJeff argue against banning teachers from having private conversations about sex and gender with prepubescent children the more I start to agree with the hyperbole of the groomer label.
Only if you think "groomer" means "any discussion of sexual orientation".
He means conditioning children to think about sex at a young age dumbass.
You should really do some self reflection why you’re so invested with wanting kindergarten teachers to be able to talk to their students about sexuality without their parents knowledge.
Yes, that's what it means.
Fuck Disney. They tried to stop a law that helps prevent grooming from leftist perverts that want to showcase their paraphilia for five year olds.
Note that the bear is not wearing pants - - - - - - - -
But it IS the "Don't Say Gay" law. Here, let me demonstrate:
Suppose a 3rd grader asks her Florida public school teacher, "Teacher, why does my friend have two mommies but I only have one?" How should the teacher respond?
When this type of question was posed last time we had this discussion, the answer that was proffered around here, was along the lines of, the teacher should say "ask your parents", the teacher should change the subject, or the teacher should outright lie and pretend that the friend's two mommies are actually married to men who are astronauts or something. In other words, you don't want the teacher to say that the friend's two moms are gay. This is what you all offered as a response.
Now, if you don't agree with that response, and you think that the teacher should be honest with his/her students, then you should be opposed to this law, which prohibits teachers from talking honestly about "gender identity or sexual orientation" at all. (Of course what is REALLY meant here is 'gender identity and sexual orientation' that is different from the traditional straight cisnormative lifestyle, because no one is going to complain about a teacher talking to kids about Prince Charming and Snow White falling in love like a typical heterosexual couple.
An amendment was put forth to the law that would have replaced "gender identity and sexual orientation" with "human sexuality or sexual activity." If it had passed, that amendment would have banned actual sex talk with K-3 students, but would NOT have banned broad discussion about gender identity more broadly that had nothing to do with "sex talk". That amendment failed, with Republicans voting it down. They WANT a vague law that bans BOTH "sex talk" with kids (which everyone agrees ought not happen with little kids) AND ALSO bans discussions about gender identity that has nothing to do with sex talk. It is the ultimate motte-and-bailey culture war bill:
Motte: It just bans sex talk with little kids. How could you be opposed to that? Are you a GROOMER???
Bailey: It bans all discussion of non-traditional non-heterosexual orientations and bans all discussion of any gender identity bullshit that isn't about male and female because I want public schools to indoctrinate kids into traditional gender roles.
Article about the proposed amendment:
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/politics/amendment-to-parental-rights-dont-say-gay-bill-florida/67-118a8232-027e-4b72-8d70-eb6a6fb3a613
Do you find it odd you keep linking to opinion pieces and not the law itself?
Jeff is unhappy not because he has a sincere belief that K through 3 teachers desperately need to be ultra honest with the kids. He is upset because any discussion a teacher has about different sexual orientation will be supportive and positive. If they have to turn the discussion to the parents the parents are going to tell their kids what ever the parents believe which runs the gamut. Children that age believe what they are told and Jeff wants to have his preferred narrative the one kids are hearing with out those pesky parents confusing kids.
In other words, you don't want the teacher to say that the friend's two moms are gay. This is what you all offered as a response.
Stupidly wrong, which indicates a he knows he's wrong. If there were a legitimate criticism he wouldn't have to resort to idiotic strawmen.
If I'm wrong, then prove it. Suppose a 3rd grader asks her Florida public school teacher, "Teacher, why does my friend have two mommies but I only have one?" How should the teacher respond? What is your answer?
If you answer "the teacher should be honest with the student and say that the two moms are gay because sometimes two women fall in love" then that type of discussion is now banned by the law that you claim to support.
But if you answer "umm umm the teacher should change the subject or say 'ask your parents' or make up white lies to placate the student" then you agree with me - the law really is a "Don't Say Gay" law.
So, which will it be?
Jeff you are indeed dishonest. But you are also stupid. Which means you are incapable of being honest even with yourself.
The proper response from any public school teacher when asked about something they should not directly address is: "You will need to ask your parents to explain that".
Why the fuck was that not obvious even to your feeble brain?
The proper response from any public school teacher when asked about something they should not directly address is: "You will need to ask your parents to explain that".
Right. So you don't want the teacher to say that the two moms are gay. Thanks for agreeing with me.
What makes you think the two mommies are gay?
That's awfully narrowminded of you.
Beyond that, why do you think it is appropriate for any teacher to be speculating about or discussing the personal relationships or sexuality of any parent or guardian?
What part of "leave it all the fuck alone when dealing with K-3rd graders" is a bad idea?
Well I am assuming for the purposes of this discussion that the two moms really are gay and that the teacher knows for a fact that they are gay.
Beyond that, why do you think it is appropriate for any teacher to be speculating about or discussing the personal relationships or sexuality of any parent or guardian?
In this scenario, the student brought it up by asking a question, the teacher didn't bring it up. And you want the teacher to dodge the question and not answer honestly. We all read your answer.
So you had to invent an imagined scenario and imagined response to win your argument? That is sophistry dumbass.
"Well I am assuming for the purposes of this discussion that the two moms really are gay and that the teacher knows for a fact that they are gay."
Exactly how often do you think school teachers are privy to the actual relationship status of their students' parents or guardians????
And when your oh so convenient "assumptions" do not apply then how should the teacher respond?
Exactly how often do you think school teachers are privy to the actual relationship status of their students' parents or guardians????
Gee I don't know, maybe the subject comes up during parent-teacher conferences? Maybe the parents and the teachers actually get to know each other, like what is supposed to happen in a highly-functional school district?
And when your oh so convenient "assumptions" do not apply then how should the teacher respond?
I will agree with you that if the teacher doesn't know, then the teacher shouldn't speculate. But also that there doesn't need to be a state law mandating that teachers not engage in boorish behavior.
So, based on the assumption that the teacher KNOWS that the two moms are gay, how should the teacher respond to the student? Care to change your answer?
"maybe the subject comes up during parent-teacher conferences?"
Jeff, I know this has been explained to you before, but you still do not realize that the easiest way to refute you is to simply keep you babbling.
Because it is inevitable you will uncork idiocies like that one.
And sooner rather than later.
That's not refuting anything I wrote, and now you are trying to avoid admitting that yes, I am right, the law really is a "don't say gay" law because you are trying to change the subject to make the topic about me instead.
Do you want to change your answer?
It's not "don't say gay."
It's "don't say anything."
What part of "ask your parent(s)" do you think is a bad idea?
Pedo Jeffy is white knighting for pedophiles and whatever we’re calling these wackos that want to ‘transition’ small children without their parent’s knowledge or consent. We should be grateful he pulled his head out of that industrial sized drum of Ben & Jerry’s Transfruity long enough to help out.
It's "don't say anything."
Bullshit. For 50+ years little kids have been subjected to Prince Charming and Snow White falling in love and no Republican ever thought that this blatant display of their sexual orientation was such a moral outrage that it necessitated the state to pass a law banning even discussing it in the classroom. Because Prince Charming and Snow White are NORMAL in their view. They are straight and conform to traditional gender roles. Team Red doesn't have any problem with THAT. This is NOT about not discussing anything about gender identity or sexual orientation. This IS about banning discussion about gender identity or sexual orientation that Team Red deems to be "weird" or "perverted" or "taboo". It is about instructing kids, either explicitly or implicitly, that straight = normal and gay = weird, taboo, controversial.
Jeff thinks fairy tails are reaching people heteronormative exclusionary thinking instead of just being a fucking story.
Hahaha, fucking Jeff thinks it’s appropriate for teachers to ask about parents sex life at parent teacher conferences!
He seriously said that!
Pedo Jeffy is most likely some kind of gay/tranny/pedophillic sicko who is desperate to leave small children defenseless against predators and far left zealots.
What if the kid asks the teacher if there really is a Santa Claus? Is the teacher somehow ethically bound to tell the kid "Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the whole thing is an enormous scam. Santa doesn't bring you shit. It was your parents the whole time (insert evil laugh)." If the school administration or the parents object are the teachers first amendment rights being violated? Kids ask awkward questions every day. The proper answer from anyone other than a parent or close relative or friend trusted by the parents is always "ask your parents". End of story.
No, no. Jeff envisions the teacher sending each student home with a detailed questionnaire for each parent or guardian, asking them to characterize their sexual relationship(s), living arrangements, etc. So, on the "off chance" the student asks, the proper answers will be readily available.
Yeah, that will go well.
I said nothing of the sort.
You just can't admit to agreeing with me.
Nah, he’d wait until parent teacher conferences, and ask all the parents about their religious beliefs so he could bring it back up for the class the next day.
I think that is an interesting question. Here's what I don't think should happen: I don't think the teacher should outright lie to the students. If the teacher wants to give vague responses which doesn't directly contradict the idea that Santa exists, I think that would probably be okay.
But even if the teacher were to lie to the student and say "yes, Santa definitely exists!", then at least that lie could be defended on utilitarian grounds that it is a "noble lie" that is intended to cause kids to be on their best behavior in order to get presents from Santa. What would be the purpose of lying to kids about the reality of non-heterosexual relationships? What is the "noble lie" aspect about that? To "protect" them? Protect them from what - the truth? Again we are talking about age-appropriate discussions here ("sometimes two men fall in love just like sometimes a man and a woman fall in love"), no graphic "sex talk", nothing about sexual intercourse. Why should kids be "protected" from learning about that?
You've chosen to completely miss the point.
"The proper answer from anyone other than a parent or close relative or friend trusted by the parents is always 'ask your parents'. End of story."
No vague responses or noble lies required. Most adults don't have difficulty figuring out how to talk to other peoples children. You expect all of us to follow your logical contortions when the answer to your bafflement was right there all along. "Ask your parents" is the correct answer to a whole lot of questions little kids might ask. It's not complicated. You want to carve out some exception for questions about gender and sexual attraction because lefties are desperate to exclude parents from that conversation. That's why the Florida legislature passed this bill and why it is very popular with their constituents.
What the teacher "wants" to do is irrelevant. For anything not part of the curriculum, the teacher should say "ask your parents about that". End of story.
Talking about "falling in love" isn't age appropriate for K-3.
Funny story (for me, not all my classmates). I forget exactly what grade, but it was right after I knew Santa wasn’t real, but some of my classmates didn’t.
We had a substitute teacher we were giving shit, and she got mad and told the class there was no Santa.
I just tell them that Santa turns into a giant white bat on Christmas Eve and drinks the blood of all the bad children.
The law leaves it up to the parents - whatever their views or situation may be. Whatever the question let the kid's own parents deal with it.
Why can you not see that is the most respectful and inclusive approach?
The law leaves it up to the parents - whatever their views or situation may be.
No, it doesn't. The law bans the discussion entirely in K-3 classrooms about "gender identity or sexual orientation" even if the parents in a particular school district actually want their kids learning about gender identity or sexual orientation in an age-appropriate manner (and NO that is not the same as "sex talk").
This law is a slap in the face of the concept of subsidiarity and a slap in the face to the concept of "local control". It is literally the state government mandating to all school districts how they will comply.
It is just one more illustration that Team Red and Team Blue are really just two sides of the same coin. Both are authoritarian control freaks, and they just dress up their freakishness with window dressing appeals to "local control" or "protecting kids", whichever is most suitable at the time.
If parents want to talk to their little kids about gender identity and sexual orientation they remain free to do so. Again. You're advocating for a special dispensation for government employees to put their spin on these particular subjects and exclude parents from the conversation.
I am advocating for teachers to actually do their jobs and teach, and to not be put in the position of being forced to lie to their students because telling the truth would be illegal.
You are advocating taking the teaching of morality from parents and giving it to teachers to indoctrinate kids.
You have no business talking about sexual with small children. You sick paraphilliac.
It is not the teachers fucking job to impart morality or sexuality on the kids. That is the realm of parents. Especially when schools are telling kids not to tell their fucking parents you pedophile fuck
The proper response from any public school teacher when asked about something they should not directly address is: "You will need to ask your parents to explain that".
Why should teachers not directly address issues regarding gender identity or sexual orientation? Why should they regard non-traditional gender identities or sexual orientations as "taboo" or "controversial"?
Because it is a fucking minefield that the teacher will have no direct knowledge of the actual details, and has no business being involved in such.
You actually are arguing teachers should be grooming.
I am arguing that teachers should be honest with their students in an age-appropriate manner.
I am arguing that teachers should not treat non-traditional gender identities or sexual orientations as taboo or controversial. "Sometimes a man falls in love with a woman, sometimes two men fall in love, and sometimes two women fall in love". There, that is an age-appropriate discussion of heterosexual and homosexual relationships that has nothing to do with "sex talk" or sexual intercourse or genitals or grooming or any of that nonsense, and yet that sentence is now banned in Florida in grades K-3. Are you okay with that? Is that what you want?
If you ACTUALLY want zero discussion of any mention of gender identities or sexual orientations in grades K-3, then you're going to also have to advocate banning all the heterosexual stuff too. No more Snow White stories.
But we both know what this is REALLY about - it is about banning the gay stuff, while leaving the 'normal' heterosexual stuff unchallenged, thereby implicitly treating heterosexual relationships as "normal" while treating homosexual relationships as "taboo" and also vaguely connected to pedophilia, what with all of this 'groomer' talk.
"I am arguing that teachers should be honest with their students in an age-appropriate manner."
No, you are not. Because that is exactly what they law is doing. And doing so by an established, long standing, and well recognized process for determining accepted community standards. That being called legislation.
Which is a far cry better than "do whatever idjit Jeff says he wants."
But the law does NOT mandate "accepted community standards". The law mandates the preferences of the legislature and the governor.
And you are the one who wants the teacher to be evasive and not be straightforward with students when they ask honest questions relating to gender identity or sexual orientation that is something other than the traditional straight heterosexual type. I want teachers to teach. You want teachers to indoctrinate that heterosexuality is "normal" and homosexuality is "taboo".
That's a keeper, right there.
It is supported by the majority of Florida residents in both parties you ignorant fuck.
"It is supported by the majority of Florida residents in both parties you ignorant fuck."
Jeff apparently rejects the concept of representative governance.
A bad idea supported by a majority of voters is still a bad idea.
LOL.
As if any of them were your kids.
Team Red successfully created a moral panic to push their partisan agenda using kids as props. Their real purpose here was to ban instruction on "the gay lifestyle" and to otherwise problematize it and make it controversial and taboo. And they use the whole "protect kids from groomers" nonsense to justify it.
This is JUST LIKE what Team Blue does, when THEY create a moral panic to push their partisan agenda using kids as props. Such as - oh I don't know - creating hysteria about 'an epidemic of gun violence' to justify their true agenda of banning guns, using the whole "protect kids from gun violence" shlock to justify it.
It's so odd how you are usually very keen spotting when Team Blue uses kids as props to push a partisan agenda, but seem to have a blind spot when Team Red does the exact same thing. I wonder why that is.
And Jeff finally admits his view is his morality trumps others.
Fuvk off jeff. They aren't your children. Fucking incel.
"the gay lifestyle"
What do you mean by this?
So after multiple beatdowns, Jeffy is pivoting to ‘boaf sidez’. So that means we need to keep the beatdowns coming.
He's argued that the US has a moral obligation to allow in child rapists no questions asked before, so why does this surprise you.
That was never my position. Evidently my actual position is too complicated for some of you to understand.
The point of that entire discussion was about what the concept of asylum was intended for. I submit that asylum is about granting protection to people being oppressed, and that from a moral point of view, it is the oppression that should form the substantive basis for a claim of asylum, and not the moral character of the oppressed. Oppression isn't "less bad" if it happens against a sinner than if it happens against a saint. And from a practical point of view, if a nation were to take the position that asylum would only be granted to the "saints" who are being oppressed, then it would give a green light to all of the oppressors out there that they have free rein to oppress all they want as long as it's only against the "sinners".
So I have never taken the position that "the US has a moral obligation to allow in child rapists no questions asked". My actual position is more complex than that. But far be it for me to try to discuss complex topics around here.
And from a practical point of view, if a nation were to take the position that asylum would only be granted to the "saints" who are being oppressed, then it would give a green light to all of the oppressors out there that they have free rein to oppress all they want as long as it's only against the "sinners".
"If we are nice, dictators won't be mean to their own people" is truly the moral clarity of a child. And the intellectual clarity of one as well.
Why insult children?
No, it's not. Asylum is about granting protection to people who are politically persecuted and have to fear for their life; mere oppression is insufficient for granting asylum. Furthermore, nobody has a right to asylum in any country they choose; people are required to seek asylum in the first country that is safe for them. Under international asylum law as it exists today, almost nobody is entitled to asylum in the US.
But let's be clear here: this kind of political asylum is a progressive post-WWII innovation; it certainly isn't sacrosanct.
And what people like you are doing is just pushing the boundaries further and further, turning a very limited right ("first safe country for people who have to fear death because of political persecution") into pretty much open borders ("anybody in the world who is oppressed").
Because it's not their job and because it's not part of the curriculum.
When I’m doubt tell them to ask their parents. You fucking little shitweasel.
“When in doubt”
How do we prove against an imagined scenario dumbass?
He’s is queen of the sea lions.
"That's how they chose to organize their family".
Only people like yourself interested solely in talking sex with young children need to bring sex into it at all.
It's amusing that even when you make up the questions yourself you can't come up with one to prove your point.
talking sex with young children
In my scenario, where is the "talking sex with young children" part? Hmm? It's not there, you know it, and you are just lying because you cannot confront the realization that the bill's critics really do have a point - the law is about banning discussion of non-traditional sexual orientation and gender roles in the classroom, even discussions that have nothing to do with "talking sex" - and that that is what you WANT.
If two women are living together and raising children together, but are not engaging in sex with women then what business does any teacher have characterizing them as "gay?"
Sexual orientation is not about who you fuck, it's about who you love. Do you understand at least that much?
So they should be characterized as in love? What if they just find it advantageous to live together because the rent is too damn high? How about the teacher minds his or her own fucking business.
See above. In my scenario I am assuming that the two women actually are gay and that the teacher knows for a fact that the two women are gay. Not that they are just roommates. I reject the characterization that even discussing that two women or two men might love each other necessarily must mean some sort of discussion about sexual intercourse, especially among young kids. It doesn't, and it's dishonest to claim that it does.
How about the teacher minds his or her own fucking business? Problem solved!
“In my scenario I am assuming”
Good for you. Have fun in your make believe. Meanwhile, fuck off.
Jeffy, the kids don’t need your scenarios. They need for leftist perverts like you to leave them alone. Do other members of your family let you near any small children? I highly doubt it. Especially if you vomit up the same perversion to them that you do here.
No. Sexual orientation is all about who you fuck. And only about who you fuck.
I have a man and some children in the 'who I love' category - because love is a broader concept than fucking.
Fine - I should have been more specific, and say it's about romantic love. Happy now?
So by your logic, what are virgins? Straight, or gay?
No, it’s about physical attraction. You really are a soft headed idiot.
Romantic love isn't a proper subject for K-3 either, and it is certainly not something that public school teachers should teach kids in K-3 about.
Pedo Jeffy, leave those kids alone.
All in all Jeff's just another brick in the wall.
Or a dick in the wall. I’ll bet he’s been on both sides of a glory hole.
It's revealing that when proven wrong you try to distract to some other point.
But you're right, teachers have no business discussing gender roles at all, especially the manifestly unqualified and extreme activists who appoint themselves to do so. Political activism has no place in government schools, or in any school if that activism is hidden from parents. Teachers should say that boys and girls can choose to be anything and organize their lives how they want.
Political activism has no place in government schools
So discussing gender identity or sexual orientation in an age-appropriate manner is "political activism" now? I guess that means banning Snow White stories from schools?
So discussing gender identity or sexual orientation in an age-appropriate manner is "political activism" now?
If it was age appropriate we wouldn't be having the discussion. In fact the law prohibits only non-age appropriate discussions and thus your attack on it means you support non-age appropriate discussions.
This is how distinguish libertarians from leftists posing as libertarians. They lie to protect sexualization of children because their loyalty is to extreme political activists rather than children and families.
In fact the law prohibits only non-age appropriate discussions
No, it does not. It bans ALL discussion, age-appropriate or not, for grades K-3. Read the law yourself, the link to it was posted above. You are just lying and shilling for Team Red here.
Left wingers like chemjeff lie to protect the sexualization of children because their loyalty is to extreme political activists instead of families and children. Sexualization of children is literally their number one priority: vastly more important than teaching them math, reading or science. This is because their goal is creating left wing voters instead of developing children into productive adults.
Left wingers like chemjeff lie to protect the sexualization of children
lol, no one except for some NAMBLA freaks are in favor of 'protecting the sexualization of children'
This is just a ridiculous and offensive smear.
no one except for some NAMBLA freaks are in favor of 'protecting the sexualization of children'
If that were true no one except NAMBLA freaks would be defending efforts to sexualize children. But in reality here you are in an uproar along with the entire political left.
But in reality here you are in an uproar
...that Team Red is cynically using "save the kids from pedophiles" rhetoric to push homophobic laws that gag teachers from having honest discussions with their students on topics that have absolutely nothing to do with sexual intercourse or "sexualizing children".
laws that gag teachers from having honest discussions with their students on topics that have absolutely nothing to do with sexual intercourse or "sexualizing children".
This is, of course, a lie. Most teachers have no problem with the law because they wouldn't have conversations about sex with children anyway. But the activists who became teachers know that exposing them to sexual ideas before they are old enough to process them has a very good chance of interfering with their normal development. That's why inappropriate sexual discussions have long been listed as a step the grooming process. Team Blue will do anything to support these allies in their effort to create more social misfits which overwhelming vote Dem (or left of Dem).
I feel like you're trying way too hard to make Team Blue out to be insanely monstrous. Like there is any significant portion of Team Blue that supports literal sexual grooming of kids or who think that cozying up to child predators is some sort of winning political strategy. It's almost comical to read. I hope you don't actually believe what you're writing. You sound like an anti-Tony.
Like there is any significant portion of Team Blue that supports literal sexual grooming of kids
And yet here you are, supporting literal sexual grooming of children.
As far as I can see, there is no link to the law above. I found a link to Scott's previous article, which ALSO didn't link to the actual law, but only to a early version. The correct link the the law as passed is https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF which bans instruction rather than discussion. It's an important distinction.
The actual wording is: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standard."
None of that is age appropriate for small children for a whole host of reasons. So leave them alone.
Not at all. The age appropriate way to discuss "gender identity or sexual orientation" with kids in K-3 is not to discuss it at all.
1. It's not banned.
2. The teacher can always direct the child to ask *their parents* such questions.
1. It's not banned.
From the law itself:
Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3
Sounds like a ban to me.
2. The teacher can always direct the child to ask *their parents* such questions.
So what I said is correct - it's a "Don't Say Gay" law.
"Classroom instruction"
That is curriculum, you retard.
It includes everything that happens in the classroom even if it's not a part of the formal curriculum.
Lying Jeffy either doesn’t know what “instruct” means, or he’s lying. For groomers.
No you imbecile, it’s a don’t say anything law. The whole subject is inappropriate for young children. No special carve outs for gays or anything else. Because they’re too young.
Teachers get paid to teach the curriculum, not unburden themselves about their private life. Since that isn’t obvious to morons and perverts, such as yourself, this law was necessary.
And it’s kinder than just beating the living shit out of school personnel that want to perform out on our kids.
Why do you think sophistry is a winning argument? Especially against a population devoted to objective discussions? And who most likely are much more intelligent than you?
It’s all he has. Sophistry, and industrial sized tubs of Haagen-Daz.
"Some kids have a mom and a dad, some kids have two moms, some kids have one parent." It's not difficult, you kid-diddling pervert.
It shouldn't be difficult, but that discussion is now banned in Florida K-3 public classrooms. Because that right there is a discussion of "gender identity or sexual orientation". So I am glad that you agree with me that this law prevents the completely non-sexual, non-"grooming" discussion about gender identity or sexual orientation and it's wrong to do so.
Fine. Good. It's not a discussion for the classroom at that age anyway. Teacher can get back to teaching math.
Later on, when the kids are more developed - ie, older that 8 - then teachers can answer those questions directly. Still not an appropriate topic for most classrooms outside of sex Ed.
Is "Snow White" an inappropriate movie for little kids?
Snow White has no place in classroom instruction. "Don't eat poisoned apples. Don't poison other people, that's wicked." is more effectively and efficiently taught without needlessly invoking 7 dudes all sleeping in the same bedroom or a prince waking his princess with a magical kiss.
Are you in favor of teaching religion in school? Because, again, outside "Don't fuck with poisoned/poisoning food." the rest is literally a fairy tale.
You miss the point. There are millions of Snow White-type stories geared towards little kids where a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman meet and fall in love. Can any of these stories be read in class in K-3? Are they all inappropriate? By the logic presented herein, you have to say yes.
Do you also find evolution triggering, knowing each stage relied on the organisms not being a morass of paedophilic faggots?
paedophilic faggots
There we have it. Homos = pedophiles
Homos that want to talk to other people’s 5-8 year old about sex = pedophiles, yes.
Sometimes, and it appears likely in your case.
There are millions of Snow White-type stories geared towards little kids where a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman meet and fall in love. Can any of these stories be read in class in K-3? Are they all inappropriate? By the logic presented herein, you have to say yes.
I'm pretty clear that, sexuality, homo, hetero, or other entirely aside, *teaching* Snow White in school, specifically K-3, has no practical value. There's *loads* of fiction, by no means bound by the fairy tale romance genre that fits the description. Gigatons of anime, religious fiction, crime drama, etc., etc., etc. that serves no purpose in teaching kids reading, writing, math, history, etc., etc., etc. None of it needs to be taught to children and some of it, again without the slightest heed to sexuality, should *not* be taught to primary school children. There's no need for them to be *taught* Friday The 13th, Dexter, *or* Brokeback Mountain and, doubling down on your idiocy, *especially not* without parents' knowledge and/or consent.
Now, answer my question; do you think fairy tales should be taught from as instructional in schools? How badly do you want to lock the children inside and burn this house down?
Why are teachers so unimaginative that they are teaching Snow White in your Gedankenexperiment?
At the very least, these teachers need to just be sacked for incompetence. At kindergarten age, several of the explicit lessons to be learned is about reading a room, respecting your peers, not talking out of turn, or talking about topics that would needlessly offend others. These teachers have committed themselves to failing to teach these basic lessons.
That’s really up to the parents and not really relevant to the classroom.
By your logic, you have to answer "yes", because "it's not a discussion for the classroom at that age anyway" since it involves a man and a woman falling in love.
And yet, no one has ever sought to ban discussion of heterosexual relationships in the classroom, even K-3 ones. Wonder why that is?
Because decent people don't talk to other people's kids about sex, and never thought it would be an issue in schools that would require a law to stop, that's why.
Once again:
There was a proposed amendment to the law, that would specifically ban discussion of "human sexuality and sexual activity" in grades K-3. That amendment FAILED when Republicans voted AGAINST it. Because they are not interested in ONLY banning discussion about "human sexuality and sexual activity" in grades K-3. They are interested in banning much more than that, including discussion about gender identity or sexual orientation that has nothing to do with human sexuality or sexual activity per se. They want to ban all the "gay talk" and they have no problem making the casual link between homosexuality and pedophilia, as you have just done.
Round and round Lying Jeffy goes, how pedantic he’ll get, know one knows!
Gender identity or sexual orientation necessarily have to do with human sexuality or sexual activity. And none of those subjects are appropriate for teachers to discuss in K-3. In K-3, kids should learn basic social skills, reading, writing, arithmetic, and a tiny bit about geography and science. Period.
That's not a discussion and it summarily concludes the issue. Keep arguing to teach six-year-olds about sodomy, pedo.
No one except perhaps some NAMBLA freaks are advocating for teaching six-year-olds about sodomy. That is just a right-wing lie used for cover to push their real agenda, to ban any discussion of non-heterosexual non-traditional gender roles in the classroom.
What is Teen Vogue?
Does Teen Vogue teach six-year-olds about sodomy?
Because you manage to selectively unsee all that disagrees with your preconceived agenda... Yes it does, you mendacious fuck. And it illustrates the left's continued descent into complete amorality.
https://townhall.com/columnists/toddstarnes/2017/07/18/untitled-n2356653
I had not heard of this story before just now. Sorry not sorry for not following the details of what Teen Vogue is up to, or what the latest right-wing outrage is.
They are not teaching anal sex to *six-year-olds*.
“to ban any discussion of non-heterosexual non-traditional gender roles in the classroom.”
Are you completely ignorant of childhood development that you don’t understand that THIS IS inappropriate for k-3 education?
*deep breath*
Just stop trying to talk to kids about sex. It never has been, or will be appropriate and remains something for parents to discuss. That a law had to be passed specifically forbidding it after educators attempted to go behind parent's backs is as repulsive as your defense of groomers.
Just stop trying to talk to kids about sex.
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/politics/amendment-to-parental-rights-dont-say-gay-bill-florida/67-118a8232-027e-4b72-8d70-eb6a6fb3a613
But, an amendment to the bill that Senate lawmakers considered on Monday would've shifted the focus away from one of its most controversial elements.
The amendment proposed by Sen. Jeff Brandes, a Republican representing St. Petersburg, would've replaced the words "sexual orientation or gender identity" with "human sexuality or sexual activity."
This would mean that instruction about sexual activity, in general, would be banned for certain grade levels. Supporters of the amendment, including Equality Florida, said it was a step in the right direction, as debate over the bill has often conflated sexual orientation and sexual activity.
"If the intent of this bill isn’t to marginalize anyone, let’s make sure we aren’t," Brandes said during Monday's Senate Appropriations Committee.
The amendment failed on a party-line vote, with Brandes being the lone Republican to vote in support.
If this law is only about stopping teachers from talking to young kids about sex, then why did this amendment fail, with all but 1 Republican voting against it?
The answer is, while they want to stop teachers from talking to young kids about sex - as do 99.999999% of adults - they ALSO want to stop teachers from talking to young kids about "sexual orientation and gender identity", which has no necessary connection with "sex talk".
And as we all know, this provision will never be enforced against heterosexual relationships, because those are "normal" according to Team Red. It will only ever be applied to the homosexual ones. Because telling kids that Prince Charming loves Snow White is totally fine, but telling kids that Adam loves Steve is dangerous indoctrination propaganda and "sex talk".
It IS a "Don't Say Gay" law, Florida Republicans themselves demonstrated it.
"Suppose a 3rd grader asks her Florida public school teacher, "Teacher, why does my friend have two mommies but I only have one?" How should the teacher respond?"
First off, I am not so sure that answering a student's random question would actually count as "classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity".
But leaving that aside: I fail to see how "your friend has two parents who are women, therefore she has two mothers" is a worse response than "your friends' parents are lesbians". The former response might be just a tautology, but the latter response is about as worthless to a first grader, who isn't going to have any idea what a lesbian is, and even under your proposed amendment, how is the teacher going to explain what a lesbian is, other than "a woman who forms a family with another woman", and we are basically back to a tautology as far as the 1st grader is concerned.
I see a lot of people asking about two moms, but hardly anyone wonders how teachers deal with questions about a kid having only one parent. Given the enormous variety of circumstances that can cause that, teachers really don't have the information required to answer the question, and, honestly, even if they know, it isn't their business to be revealing whether the answer is a parent died, non-custody divorce, a single person picking up some sperm/eggs from the fertility clinic, or both parents died and the kid's parent is actually an aunt or uncle to classmates.
When this type of question was posed last time we had this discussion, the answer that was proffered around here, was along the lines of, the teacher should say "ask your parents", the teacher should change the subject, or the teacher should outright lie and pretend that the friend's two mommies are actually married to men who are astronauts or something. In other words, you don't want the teacher to say that the friend's two moms are gay. This is what you all offered as a response.
You are so disingenuous with your comments. If you are going to use previous arguments, at least present them correctly. The astronaut response came from the child. The teacher's response was to ask the CHILD what they thought. The teacher then neither confirmed or denied the child's response. In fact, remained neutral and moved on back to the lesson. A pretty normal, parental style tactic, by the way. The Child was also a Kindergartner, not a third grader, but even so, the response would still work.
Try again.
"Why does Heather have two mommies?"
"Why is Heather's daddy black but Heather is white?"
"Why does Heather not have a daddy?"
"Why does Heather's daddy have no legs?"
"Why is Heather's daddy so fat?"
Teachers should have skills to deflect all these questions from K-3. We don't talk about other students' families.
Simple: "You need to ask your parents about that."
It bans instruction, not discussion. That particular issue was fixed before the bill passed.
I would argue that it is impossible to discuss gender identity without discussing sex... but that gets into one of the core disputes, how do you define gender? The trans activist community is trying to redefine "Man" and "Woman" in defiance of the previously accepted meanings which are biologically determined and not actually changeable. The compound phrase "gender identity" itself is misleading. Identity (what you are) does not mean self-image (how you think of yourself), but that's how it's used in that phrase. The entire movement is built on wishful thinking in place of accepting reality as it is.
The amendment made a distinction without difference UNLESS you buy into the attempts to redefine reality to suit themselves.
If I'm running a grocery store I really do not want my check out clerks critiquing customer's wine and cheese selections for much the same reasons.
"Stay in your lane" is an entirely appropriate approach when an employer is dealing with employees.
It is exceedingly obvious that the left's problem with this law is that it will obviously impeded the activists who seek to impose their worldview on a captive and credulous audience.
Exactly this. Stay in your fucking lane (my drill sergeant told me that back in 1995, and it's been a good fucking lesson). Here's a clue, I don't need to know who you're sleeping with, and frankly I would be quite happy never to know, and I won't tell you who I am sleeping with. If you can't handle that it says more about you than me. It's called a fucking "private" life for a reason.
That’s rich coming from someone who supports Mormons ramming their disproven beliefs down others throats.
And this goes for other subjects. I'm Lutheran but don't want my 5 yo learning about the 95 theses in kindergarten either and why the Pope was wrong to issue indulgences.
I saw KAR replied to me and figured he made some stupid comment about Mormons again. Some people are absolutely pathological.
Yet you support mormon teachers explaining to 5 year olds why they’re wearing magic underwear or why the kid with 2 mom’s will burn in hell?
Yet you support mormon teachers explaining to 5 year olds why they’re wearing magic underwear or why the kid with 2 mom’s will burn in hell?
While I'm not aware of anyone supporting this (it's just what left wingers make up) on what basis do left wingers object to this? After all they are pretending that stopping teachers from saying anything violates the teachers free speech rights. It's so bizarre the can't even understand their own claims reveal they have no principles.
It's rather literally arguing "wet roads cause rain" in earnest (bad faith). Mormons are forbidden from teaching lessons about magic underwear in public school. DeSantis' bill explicitly does not, in several ways, ban "Transgender Sunday School".
Mormons force their bs on kids whenever given the chance. Their allegiance is to their disproven pervert god. Not to our country or laws.
So the comparison is to parents teaching their kids stupid shit? What an idiot.
Mormons force their bs on kids whenever given the chance.
And? We killed a bunch of them for it, explicitly banned their followers in large swaths of the country, and continue to ban many of their practices to this day. Are you saying we should grant them greater liberty to teach their fairy tales in public schools?
Yes, that's what parents can do in a free society.
Mormons are highly law abiding.
Since I don't blame Mormons for every evil and oppose genociding them he believes I support their teachings. It's rather pathetic. I told him I don't agree with most of their teaching, but they have a right to believe and practice what they want. Somehow he has interpreted this to mean I secretly support Mormons. No more than I support 7th Day Adventists or Christian Scientists or Roman Catholics. Or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists. Or Taoists or Atheists for that matter.
He's pathological about his hatred of Mormons. His posts sound like something straight out of Mein Kampf except he's substituted Mormon for Jews. See his post below about Mormons having no allegiance to the country. Which is exactly the opposite of what Mormons are taught. If anything the Mormons are taught to have to much allegiance to the state. They really take the whole Give unto Caeser what is Caesar's too far. This is shit Hitler literally wrote, almost word for word, about Jews in Mein Kampf. And I am using literally correctly.
If they’re taught to have much allegiance to the state then why’d they run away from the Midwest to Utah(then part of Mexico) to practice sexual slavery?
Why’d they go to war with the US over polygamy after Utah became part of the US?
They only “pledge allegiance to the state” when it suits them.
Why’d they go to war with the US over polygamy after Utah became part of the US?
Why’d the US go to war with Mormons over polygamy in order for Utah became part of the US?
If they’re taught to have much allegiance to the state then why’d they run away from the Midwest to Utah(then part of Mexico) to practice sexual slavery?
If you think the MO was right to literally order them to leave or die, why are you arguing in defense of a policy that effectively defends their ability to teach sexual slavery to underage schoolchildren unimpeded by the State?
I admit, I did not have on my 2022 Bingo card that "The Democrat Party and Libertarians adopt a pro-child grooming platform".
It was hinted at during the gay marriage debate. And one of the criticisms of constitutionally finding that right instead of through legislation.
Eh, the Libertarian party has always had a child grooming problem
With that said, usually they don't advocate government employees doing it on government time/property
Here is a clue Scotty. If you're a furry, you don't need to tell a five year old about it. If you like to wear a diaper and get fucked with a 12 inch black dildo, you don't need to talk to a 6 yo about it. If you're getting married, divorced etc, there is no reason to discuss it with a 7 yo. If you just had the most amazing first date ever, or just a random amazing swipe right hookup, you really don't have to discuss that with an 8 yo either. They aren't your friends. It isn't your job. Your job is to make sure Tommy can read, Ann can do multiplication, that Fred has a clean pair of pants when he has an accident. Make sure Fred doesn't get teased, and if Ann has two Mom's make sure kids don't pick on her for it. Past that, it's not your fucking job. Period. If Tommy tells you he wants to be Tammy, it's not your job to encourage that, and it's probably not your job to hide it from his parents either. They'll probably start to suspect something is going on when Tommy isn't wearing his blue jeans and mandorlarian t shirt and is instead wearing his sister's dress. I told my Kindergarten teacher I wanted to be the Lone Ranger. It wasn't her job to ensure I got a pair of ivory handled Colt Model 73 SAA, silver bullets and a white stallion (though that would have been cool!). Her job was to say, that's nice, now let's worry about saying the alphabet.
Disney is misguided in their opposition to HB 1557. Although the bill is a bit vague, bills can always be made more precise and clear.
It is reasonable that Parents should be notified of anything concerning their child. In the vast majority of cases, the parent will have and be more vested in the welfare of their child than a Government employee.
If a child (K through 3rd grader) has questions about sexuality, you can answer the question without going into depth and it will be more than sufficient. If the child asks why little Joey has two dads, then the answer is yes it is nice that Joey has two parents who love him. You don't need to go further because 99% of the time the child will not need more.
The removal of Disney's self rule is wrong. We actually want more of this. Presumably the self rule is over property that Disney owns, which I sure this is the case. Disney should not receive any special carve out or special tax breaks, but smaller more representative "government" or self-government entities is preferred to larger entities.
I'm not certain it's wrong. If anything, making them live by everyone else's law seems right and fair. Now if you want to argue the laws everyone else has to live by are wrong, I can entertain that, but Florida gave them special rights, now Florida took them away and said live by the same rules everyone else has to. That seems far more libertarian than, Disney gets special exemptions from the rules.
I'm not certain it's wrong.
It should also be clear that arguing the removal is wrong is an argument that representative democracy is wrong. Disney didn't have their shareholders vote on supporting HB 1557, they didn't poll their customers, or hold elections for their CEO. Opposing Putin and Russian Oligarchs while supporting Disney's flex on its neighbors legislative choices is certainly an... interesting proposition. Especially considering the legislation in question, in no way, affects Disney directly. Just another instance of wokesters demonstrating that there's no cultural norm, institution, or moral they won't sacrifice on the alter of progress. Their priests say "Crusade to rape children." and it shall be done.
I didn't think the left would go this far but it seems to be the hill they're willing to die on.
Death on that hill would be a fitting end for Disney. We can only hope.
Disney is misguided in their opposition to HB 1557. Although the bill is a bit vague, bills can always be made more precise and clear.
It isn't a bill anymore, it is law, signed by the Governor. A bill can be amended to be made more clear before it is passed and signed into law, but a law can only be made more clear by passing a new law. Unless the special session that DeSantis called passes a new law, it will be a least a year before anything is done to clarify it. (The special session was called by DeSantis primarily because he vetoed the legislature's map for the U.S. House, wanting his preferred map that would break up the district currently held by a Black House Rep. and create 20 districts that would have voted for Trump and 8 that would have voted for Biden, when Trump won Florida by 3%. DeSantis himself only won by 0.4%, with 49.6% of the total.).
It is more than "a bit" vague. It doesn't define what counts as "instruction" on "gender identity" or "sexual orientation", nor does it give any guidance about what would be "age appropriate" for those topics outside of K-3. If existing state law defined those things, no one on either side is quoting it.
It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the vagueness is the point, so that teachers and other school employees will just try and avoid these topics entirely rather than risk lawsuits from conservative parents upset that their child was 'exposed' to the idea that some people are gay without being told that it is sinful. (Do doubt those parents would likely have their legal bills paid by some conservative activist group, rather than them having to foot the bill on their own.)
As a science teacher in Florida public schools for almost 20 years now, I have seen how some biology teachers regularly skimp on the evolution unit because they don't want to have to deal with the controversy when some evangelical parent gets irate that their kid is being taught "evilution". In that situation, they would be teaching something explicitly part of the state science standards, yet some still end up self-censoring. What do you think the explicit threat of lawsuits is intended to do here?
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You have to wonder if Reason would have written a scathing libertarian rebuke of Disney getting special treatment from the State compared to every other business in the state if they had been around at the time? I would have seemed a very libertarian thing to do. Seems unfairness can go both ways.
Liberty, that "special treatment" included Disney taking responsibility for a massive undertaking, including governmental responsibilities, in what was then some orange groves and a whole bunch of swamp land. I am agnostic on the question, but of course that question has nothing to do with the petty tyrant governor of Florida attacking the agreement based on Disney's criticism of a culture war law he was primarily responsible for.
Pedophilia and grooming aren’t popular with libertarians. That’s you Marxists.
Unbelievable thread demonstrating that virtually no one here is a libertarian. You are almost to a person GOP and MAGA shills. The Disney carve out can be rationally argued pro and con but what moves this group is an attack on MAGA Great White Hope Desantis who is attacking a former - but announced, no longer - contributor to his campaign for disagreeing publicly with a law he promoted which affects them as a major presence in the state. That is not a reasonable pro and con look at Disney's self government status, it's petty politics bordering on megalomania - and you all are almost to a person defending it.
Libertarians my ass.
So, to be clear -- a libertarian would support a special carve out from state laws, for a particular private actor? Just want to be clear what you are saying.
Just to be clear -- Disney's position or board isn't publicly elected and its employees and customers get no vote with regard to any specific action taken. Not just a libertarian, but any Enlightened person would support such an entity as a system of governance, unequivocally?
Elon Musk and Donald Trump buy Disney World tomorrow and establish The People's Republic of MAGALand in FL. DeSantis reinforces it as a 'Conservative Christian Caliphate' and Joe Friday, et al. say "They're just a private corporation doing what private corporations with special protections do. It's unfair and unwise to
stop giving themtake their special protections just because we happen to disagree with them." That's the *d*emocratic take?Well, and to make sure that doesn't happen, libertarians would like Disney's self-governance revoked. You should be on board with that too.
It hurts so much to have my libertarianism questioned by a left winger defending child grooming. However will I recover?
Yep, essentially. I remember like way back in the day you actually had a shred of libertarianism in the comments.
No more. Just a bunch of maga drunk morons. They're perfectly good with a daddy dictator- just has to be theirs.
The Disney carve out is cronyism and corruption in action; it needs to end. I don't care what the motivations were for creating the carve out, and I don't care what the motivations are for ending it.
Disney enjoyed defacto governmental authority for 50 years that it’s competitors did not. Why is it unreasonable to correct that wrong now? I thought Reason was against such corporate favoritism? The fact that Disney did this to itself by sticking its California nose into Florida’s business is just sweet irony. Had they been truly politically neutral - as they always claim to be but never are - they would not be in this predicament. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Disney got the mother of all 'stadium deals' and might lose it because they decided to involve themselves in the politics of early grade school sex ed. So now, what would otherwise be just desserts becomes "less private industry freedom."
I told you all this article was coming - the Reedy Creek Improvement District being cast as some sort of libertopia.
And here it is.
Behind every apparent double standard is an operative single standard. And the single standard at Reason is not libertarianism.
I'm just here with some popcorn. Both sides can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.
Scott, this is the second article I'm aware of where you've falsely claimed the bill limits discussion. As passed, it limits instruction. An older version did say discussion, but not the version that actually passed.
Does the law define how discussion is different from instruction? What counts as instruction and what is just discussion? Who will decide that?
If it happens during official school hours on school property, it likely counts as "instruction". Ultimately, courts will decide.
Teachers should not discuss their private lives or their sex lives or any kind of sexual topics with K-3 students in any form, period.
Ultimately, courts will decide.
If a law is too vague for people to know whether they would be complying with the law or not, then what courts should decide is that the law is invalid. Of course, that kind of void for vagueness principle derived from the Due Process clauses would apply to criminal statutes or civil statutes with penalties ordinary citizens would be subject to. Since this law applies to government employees in public schools, that kind of constitutional argument probably doesn't come into play. But regardless, it obviously makes for bad law for it to be so vague that people won't know whether certain things would be permissible under it until judges start making rulings.
You are basically making my point for me. Since you can't or won't answer my question about the specifics of what the law does, but instead want me to wait for court rulings, it is clear that you think that the law will stifle the speech you don't like without having to actually say in advance what specific lines the law draws over what is allowed and what isn't.
Teachers should not discuss their private lives or their sex lives or any kind of sexual topics with K-3 students in any form, period.
Two things that we've been over before:
1) Is it discussing my private life with my students if I answer them when they ask if I am married or have kids? Tell them where I am from, where I went to college, what my parents did for a living? Again, where is the line between typical icebreakers and 'get to know each other' kinds of conversations and "instruction"? If basically anything I say at school during school hours is likely to be "instruction", then that could mean even most innocuous comments could be taken by some student or their parent to be me trying to "instruct" them in "gender identity" or "sexual orientation".
2) Longtobefree quotes the law and provides a link to it below. "Or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally approrpriate" can only refer to every other grade level besides K-3. If the law really did only apply to K-3, then adding in that "age appropriate" language would just confuse the issue, since it bans it entirely for K-3. You show yourself to be dishonest when you keep arguing as if only K-3 students are at issue.
Why the hell would you discuss any of that with elementary school children? WTF is wrong with you? Elementary school kids aren't your buddies or your friends, they are your students and your job is to instruct them in a few, specific subjects.
Well, so we are talking about two separate issues here: (1) the absolute prohibition on discussing any of those subjects with K-3 kids and (2) an "age appropriate" prohibition on discussing those subjects with older kids.
People who are objecting to the law are objecting to both (1) and (2), so that's why people like me focus on (1). Are you saying that you are not objecting to (1)? Good, that's progress.
How about (2)? How is "age appropriate" defined? Well, it's likely dependent on community standards, so when in doubt, ask your schoolboard and look at the curriculum. But even high school kids aren't your friends or buddies, and you shouldn't be discussing your personal life, ideology, political preferences, lifestyle, or interests with them at school.
Yes. Remeber that and act accordingly.
Why the hell would you discuss any of that with elementary school children? WTF is wrong with you?
WTF kind of school did you go to or WTF kinds of kids have you been around your whole life that they never asked their teachers those kinds of questions or where people would think it weird and inappropriate to talk about them? The questions I posed are not sexually perverse in any fucking way. You are taking things to a ridiculous extreme to say that a teacher can't even tell an eight year old whether they're married if they ask. I can only imagine that you are doing so because you really don't have a solid idea of what the lines are that shouldn't be crossed, so you just default to an argument that teachers should be cold, unknowable mysteries to their students.
Besides, the personal lives of teachers and students is just an example I bring up because kids are curious about their teachers and they absolutely will ask those kinds of questions if teachers don't volunteer that information. I teach high school, and I get asked those kinds of things all the time. It is absolutely a part of my job to have a trusting, working relationship with my students, and it is impossible to build that kind of trusting relationship if I keep an emotional distance to the point where I couldn't even talk about whether I'm married, have kids, etc. Seriously, do you behave that way around adults you work with? People, and kids are people, are social beings and don't interact well with others if they can't see them as other human beings. And they can't do that if walls are built up around their ability to know much of anything about their lives outside of their roles at work or school.
...you shouldn't be discussing your personal life, ideology, political preferences, lifestyle, or interests with them at school.
What, I can't tell my physics students that I like golf as I use something from golf as an example? Maybe I can't ask them what sports they like either in an effort to relate what they are learning to something that they care about? When students do ask me about politics, I do avoid giving my personal opinions, naturally, nor do I answer questions about whether I drink alcohol, so there are lines I don't cross. But none of that is specifically legislated. It is left to the judgement of myself and my colleagues and my superiors as professionals.
The real questions are the boundaries of these topics that aren't supposed to be talked about. Whether it is in a side conversation or 'getting-to-know-each-other' phase of school year, or actually in a story being studied, word problem assigned in math class, or comes up in history, etc., when is it "instruction" on "sexual orientation" when two people are noted as being married? Is noting that a historical figure or character in a story is gay a problem? Is it only a problem to note that a couple is married (or just that they are a couple) if they are both the same sex or would noting that a man and woman are married count as instruction on heterosexuality?
One of the more memorable activities in my high school economics class was when we 'got married'. We were assigned a partner randomly (of the opposite gender) and had to make a budget for food, housing, and other expenses. Was that age inappropriate instruction on sexual orientation? How might that activity play out now that people of the same sex can legally get married? Would it be instructing kids on homosexuality or gender identity if partners were assigned randomly without regard to the sex/gender of the students? If only opposite sex partners were allowed, wouldn't that be instruction that only heterosexual relationships are acceptable?
Start answering some of these specific questions in a way that doesn't fall back on the kind of 'but don't talk about sex stuff with elementary kids' hand waving like you've done.
I'm starting to wonder if there's an age distinction, but it might be a rural urban divide as well. When I went to school in Montana in the 80's.... teachers comported themselves as professionals and didn't answer those sorts of questions. They didn't encourage students to get to know them. They were the authority figured, and took pains to maintain it. I maybe found a few things out in passing, but I couldn't tell which if any of them were married for instance.
Words have meaning, despite the efforts of the fascists:
3. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.
The details:
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF
Yes, words have meanings. You should read my questions and comprehend the meaning of them, and then perhaps you'll decide to answer them.
Yes, and the answer is simple: do your job and teach kids what you are supposed to teach them; don't fraternize with them and don't treat them as your little friends; don't use them to validate your lifestyle or stroke your ego.
"Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."
This is what the bill says. It isn't an "anti-grooming" bill. It doesn't have anything to do with sex education (or discussions about sex in any way, shape, or form).
It prevents anyone (school personnel or third parties) from talking about sexual orientation or gender identity as part of their instruction. So "don't say gay" definitely sounds like a good way to paraphrase the clause quoted above.
It definitely isn't anything like what the fringe-dwellers claim (grooming children and teaching sex being the most idiotic).
Unless those who insist that it's not a censorship bill have some evidence to back up their beliefs?
Ok groomer
You can not discuss sexuality without discussing sex. You are imagining a bright line distinction that doesn't exist.
It also doesn't single out one particular orientation. You can't really instruct people on what it means to be straight either.
Sexualizing kids early IS grooming, regardless of the personal motives of the people doing it. They may have the best intentions and just be horribly misguided, but it makes the kids vulnerable to the ones who want to take advantage.
Hey Pedo, leave those kids alone.
Are the writers at Reason ever going to be honest about the age groups the anti-grooming law protects? If you think strangers should be talking to K-3 about sex and sexual orientation, then you belong on a list, a list prohibiting you from living near or working around children.
Reason's constant apologia for grooming is pretty disgusting.
Are the writers at Reason ever going to be honest about the age groups the anti-grooming law protects?
Are the people, like you, that support this law ever going to be honest about how it applies to all grade levels? If it states (as everyone keeps quoting the relevant passage of the law accurately makes clear) that it forbids completely "instruction" on "gender identity" and "sexual orientation" in grades K-3, then adding in "or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students" could only mean every other grade level.
And since when are teachers and other school personnel "strangers"? They are legally responsible for the care and safety of those children when parents are not present, so they cannot be strangers by any reasonable definition of the word.
Yes, the law consists of two parts and people like you appear to be objecting to both parts. Therefore, it is easiest to show how ridiculous your arguments are on the K-3 portion of the law.
The relationship between a teacher and a student is a professional relationship, just like the relationship between a doctor and a patient, or an airline pilot and a passenger; it is not a personal relationship. That's the sense in which teachers and students are "strangers" to each other. To the student, the marital status or love life of the teacher is as irrelevant as is a doctor's marital status or love life to his patient.
A doctor telling me about their personal life is creepy and inappropriate, and the same is true for a teacher telling their students about their personal life.
Yes, the law consists of two parts and people like you appear to be objecting to both parts.
My objections with the K-3 part of it is that it is a blanket prohibition with ill-defined boundaries that seemed designed to lead to suppression of ideas that social conservatives don't like, but that they know that they can't be that explicit in banning them without even more serious backlash than they are getting now. As it is, they keep diverting attention from that and putting it all on "grooming" and other bullshit, when the real motivation is pretty clearly that they just don't like that being gay is becoming normalized in society. Hence the fear that being transgender is next and that even acknowledging it as a phenomenon in school would be "grooming" kids to become trans.
Therefore, it is easiest to show how ridiculous your arguments are on the K-3 portion of the law.
Maybe if my arguments weren't constantly being misrepresented, it wouldn't be so easy to show them as being ridiculous.
"A doctor telling me about their personal life is creepy and inappropriate, and the same is true for a teacher telling their students about their personal life."
You are creeped out far more easily than most people. An airline pilot is rarely even seen by the passengers, and is a voice on the intercom a couple times during the flight at most, so that is a pretty bizarre example to use. A doctor's "bedside manner" is a thing. It is part of how they work to build a trusting relationship with their patients. Each doctor-patient relationship is going to be unique and how much they share with each other is going to vary a lot. You and your doctor will likely know a lot more about each other when its your primary that you've seen for 15 years than when its that one doctor you only see that one time for that one thing. Besides, doctors ask a lot of personal questions about your life and lifestyle as part of their evaluation of your medical situation. Does that creep you out, too?
Like I said, a teacher is not a stranger to their students, by any reasonable definition of the word. A stranger, by definition, is someone that you do not know and are not familiar. (Oxford - "a person whom one does not know or with whom one is not familiar.") If you see someone every school day for a hour, you will not be strangers for very long. There is no "sense" in which a teacher is still a stranger to a student after even a week of school. You are changing the definition of "stranger" to fit what you and Bandit 6 are arguing. You don't tell a kid not to talk to strangers and mean to include their teacher in that.
To the student, the marital status or love life of the teacher is as irrelevant as is a doctor's marital status or love life to his patient.
Then why do they ask me about that? Being teenagers, sometimes it is to distract from having to learn about covalent bonds, but sometimes it simply because they do want to see their teachers as human beings and not just an unknowable authority figure telling them what to do.
Again, I bring up that kind of thing because I do see it happen in my classes. Chemistry and physics don't come across these issues in other ways (though I apparently have to be really careful about how I create scenarios in problems or I might offend some parent and get sued), but you and others are still not addressing the situations I and others ask about that are not about teachers' personal lives.