Bitcoin Won't Help Russia Bypass World Sanctions
Cryptocurrencies are not the threat to U.S. financial power the elites want to present.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren, that crusader against big banks, is no fan of bitcoin. Whether because of the environment, the economy, or most recently: international sanctions against Russia, the self-styled protector of the little guy does not want us to have uncontrolled access to independent finance.
She's not alone. Politicians who don't like bitcoin rarely have one reason. They have all of the reasons, and will seize on whichever one is most convenient or newsworthy at the time.
Right now, it's war. Hillary Clinton was trotted out to wag her finger at crypto exchanges that did not extralegally ban all Russians from their services. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is on the case, "monitoring" cryptocurrency for its capacity to give aid and comfort to the Ruskies, with the begrudging caveat that "that sector is [not] completely one where things can be evaded." Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell did admit that he had no knowledge of bitcoin being used to evade sanctions, but struck while the iron was hot, stating that it nevertheless "underscores the need" for a "regulatory framework" on cryptocurrencies, which … already exists (and is already way too onerous).
But Sen. Warren stole the show with fearmongering about bitcoin and sanctions at this month's Senate Banking Committee hearing on "Understanding the Role of Digital Assets in Illicit Finance." In her witness questions, she first darkly intoned that "crypto provides a new payment option for criminals and cheats" before laying out a hypothetical where a Russian billionaire would do just that.
The problem is that her hypothetical did not make sense. She directed her questions at a representative from Chainalysis, a blockchain forensics company. If anyone might want to exaggerate the cloak-and-dagger stereotype of blockchain transactions, it would probably be a blockchain forensics company, which get paid handsomely to develop new tools to trace digital money. But these companies know the most about what can and cannot be traced on a blockchain. They know how difficult it would be for a country like Russia to evade billions in sanctions without detection using bitcoin.
Sen. Warren was under the impression that a tool called a mixing service could magically remove any trace of a transaction from the blockchain. The Chainalysis representative corrected her, pointing out that the daily liquidity value of mixing services is only around $30 million, and that blockchain forensics companies are routinely able to unmask transactions that have been sent through mixers. Warren, surprised but undeterred, continued with her confused line of questioning, so proud of herself that she put a transcript of the objectively embarrassing exchange on her government webpage.
Technology is not magic. People hear that bitcoin allows people to send money anywhere and don't realize there are constraints.
Bitcoin is not an option for Russia to evade sanctions because the market is not deep enough to facilitate the needed financial volume. Buying that large of an amount of bitcoin at once would eat away at the value Russia would be trying to preserve. Critics, like Elizabeth Warren, reply that Russia could separate the transactions into smaller amounts. This still requires a counterparty to sell and structure those transactions appropriately, most if not all of whom are complying with existing sanctions on regulated financial intermediaries. Russia is not about to buy a bunch of $500 Walmart gift cards to move money around.
Serious people in Washington know that cryptocurrency is not a real option for Russia or any country to evade financial sanctions. Look through any news article with a headline suggesting that cryptocurrency is a handmaiden of sanctions evasion. You will inevitably find several high-ranking government authorities explaining that, no, Russia cannot realistically evade sanctions with cryptocurrencies. But although people don't read the articles, they do remember the headlines. And demagogues are too happy to further the misunderstanding that cryptocurrency is fueling the enemy. This is how misinformation is spread.
Politicians will seize on confusion to promote new controls on all of us. Warren unveiled her new hobby horse at the Senate hearing, a mess of a bill called the Digital Asset Sanctions Compliance Enhancement Act. That's a lot of stodgy words to say "we're unconstitutionally going after people who publish or run code."
The bill would impose punishments on actors who "significantly and materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, or technological support for, or goods or services to or in support of any [sanctioned] person." In the case of a peer-to-peer network, that means anyone who writes or runs code that facilitates a transaction, even if they have no ability to know or prevent who is sending or receiving the money.
Trying to punish innocent actors in a decentralized network for the criminal behavior of a few is nothing new. It motivates basically every bad policy idea in the cryptocurrency space. This attempt, like all the others, should be resisted.
But anti-bitcoin politicians' gripes exceed the mere question of sanctions evasion. They don't like the idea that the Russian government, or any Russian really, can use cryptocurrency at all.
The new paranoia is that Russia will accept bitcoin for oil trades. The source of this panic was a throwaway comment by Russian legislator Pavel Zavalny that Russia was open to letting "friendly countries"—like China and Turkey—pay for gas in whatever currency they'd like, including bitcoin, but more likely yuan and liras. The rest of the "unfriendly" world must, by Thursday, pay in rubles.
The story is a big deal not because a random Russian politician said the word "bitcoin," as our press would have you believe, but that Russia is moving away from the dollar as the currency of international oil exchanges (the "petrodollar.")
Of course Russia is going to move away from the dollar. The U.S. is sanctioning Russia and limiting how they can access dollars. The ruble had been in free fall for a while. Mandating a demand for the Russian currency will prop up its value.
That isn't bitcoin's fault. The real problem is that governments around the world are losing trust in the dollar because of U.S. authorities' actions. They've clearly weaponized our levers of global finance, and other countries are watching closely.
It is not surprising that the U.S. would exercise its powers over the global reserve currency to try to bloodlessly curtail Russia's actions. Perhaps most drastic was the West's move to freeze Russia's $630 billion in overseas foreign reserves of dollars and gold. Leaving open that vulnerability was a bit of a boneheaded move on Russia's part, but perhaps it demonstrates just how beyond the pale they believed the move to be. One financial analyst described the move to freeze Russian assets as a "nuclear bomb in the world of global finance."
But that's not all the U.S. is doing. Our authorities have also made clear their displeasure with marginal countries—the "friendly countries" in Russia's terms—for not following the leader. The goodwill with these formidable countries was already rather thin. Add in the fact that sanctions on Russia will also impose hardships on these major economies and you have a recipe for resentment and a search for an escape.
President Joe Biden himself has publicly admitted that U.S. sanctions on Russia will lead to food shortages in the U.S. and abroad. Hungry populations are not happy populations, and governments around the world are not as wedded to the dollar and NATO as the United States.
Russia is no global economic slouch, with the considerable portion of oil, fertilizer, and metals—key productive inputs—that they contribute to global markets. If they say pay in anything but the dollar, some countries will likely do so. Maybe they will get some ideas about other areas where the dollar is not actually critical.
Saudi Arabia is already publicly considering accepting yuan for Chinese oil sales instead of dollars. (Nota bene: yuan, not bitcoin.) These two countries have nothing to do with the invasion of Ukraine, yet policy decisions emanating from that conflict have hastened their move away from the dollar.
It's a big problem for the establishment, and it's not one that will be solved by shaking their fists at bitcoin. Really, bitcoin doesn't have much of anything to do with the economic geopolitical trends that have been marinating for a good few decades now. Cryptocurrency is a tool that can be wielded in different ways—most importantly as a way for innocent people to protect their finances and privacy—but it's far from a causal factor in this latest chapter of the Great Game.
Unfortunately, I doubt we will see much soul searching on the part of the leaders that have the power to make effective decisions and improve the geopolitical situation somewhat. Instead, expect a lot more anti-bitcoin fearmongering.
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Why the fuck would Russia need Bitcoin when Europe now is being required to pay for fuel in rubles and the yuan is looking to replace the dollar as the main traded currency?
Exactly! They don't need to 'get around' sanctions anymore because they already forced Europe to buy Rubles to get the oil that stops them from starving to death.
Weird what you can do when you actually power in a negotiation.
EU is looking to pass a panic order through the Ag board to move laws out of the way of domestic production (US too, under NatDefAct). None of this changes that they get 40% of their fuel from Russia and a huge chunk of fertilizer. Oh, and Ukraine was a major exporter of staple grains.
These idiotic sanctions hurt the people imposing it more than Russia, which had deals inked to sell their excess beforehand.
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Elizabeth Warren is an idiot, but that is old news. But this debacle does highlight something serious about bitcoin. The government can track it. That's one of its key features in fact, but never portrayed that way. Once the government knows about enough transactions it can start tracking which bitcoins were used where.
This is what the blockchain is, and how bitcoin works. Imagine if every dollar bill had an encrypted history of every sales receipt on it. It's not the best analogy, but it's similar.
So rather than hailing bitcoin as the miracle coin, as some anarchists are doing, we can use it as a stepping stone to do better. How can you provide for the security of the coin without including the history of the coin? The problem of "trust" has plagued cryptography for a very long time, and hippies proclaiming bitcoin to be nirvana aren't helping any. Hint, CBD doesn't cure cancer or psoriasis either. Get over it.
As always, the solution isn't some magic bullet, the solution is to reduce the size of scope of government at all levels, around the world. And that takes a hell of a lot of work.
This is what the blockchain is, and how bitcoin works. Imagine if every dollar bill had an encrypted history of every sales receipt on it. It's not the best analogy, but it's similar.
And it should be noted that this is only a fraction of the issue. Imagine if every dollar, or arbitrarily large collection of them had to be submitted for consensus before it could enter the blockchain and be transferred.
Bitcoin, by design, is distributed, not decentralized; pseudonymous, not anonymous; obscured, not secret. It can be fixed but then the question becomes, was there something wrong with it to begin with? And tugging that thread unravels the whole tapestry.
Perhaps some sort of exchange to dampen all of those problematic spikes could be instituted. Oh wait...
Yeah, that's the excuse leftists always use for market interference "we want to protect you from those 'problematic spikes'". Of course, you do that by just condemning everybody to anemic growth while enriching yourself. And those "spikes" are only problematic if you are a short term speculator.
Cryptocurrencies have been doing a lot better than bonds and even the stock market over the long term. That's why you hate them, isn't it.
Cryptocurrencies have been doing a lot better than bonds and even the stock market over the long term. That's why you hate them, isn't it.
Funny that someone pimping a product with a life less than 1/10th that of Coca Cola stock with overt aspirations of replacing all money everywhere is berating people for being short term speculators.
I'm not "pimping a product". Bitcoin isn't a "product". Whether you do or don't use bitcoin makes no financial difference to me.
You, however, are "pimping a product", namely financial forensic analysis.
That's the thing people get confused about - the *point* of a Blockchain' is that everything can be tracked. It just depends on how much effort you want to put in. There is no inherent anonymity in a Blockchain' no matter how many randomizing pools you go through.
The only anonymity comes from there not being a 'sign on credential' requirement to access the Blockchain database.
But there are other ways to de-anonymize a user and once that is done their whole transaction history is available.
The point of a blockchain is to have decentralized, secure transactions; a blockchain of fully trackable transactions is the simplest way of achieving that. But newer blockchains preserve all the properties of bitcoin and, in addition, don't allow tracking.
Maybe we're using the wrong words here - how do you have a publicly accessible, decentralized, immutable ledger of all transactions but not allow people to 'track'?
If you disallow people from looking at the ledger then there can be no independent validation of the results - hence no trust because it will be susceptible to all sorts of attacks.
If you allow people to view the ledger then you see the entire history of transactions, given enough time and resources.
For bitcoin, all you can track is that bitcoins went from one address to another. Governments can associate certain addresses with real world people when those addresses are used in conjunction with a regulated entity like a bank. That's all they can do. But those addresses are usually only associated with that particular transaction, since new transactions generally use new addresses. Nobody can tell the totality of addresses that a user controls from the ledger, and anybody's ability to track transactions to real identities ends as soon as a transaction goes to an address that they don't have information about.
For privacy-preserving cryptocurrencies, you don't even get that. All you get in the ledger is a cryptographic guarantee for the association between addresses and balances.
Governments can associate certain addresses with real world people when those addresses are used in conjunction with a regulated entity like a bank.
Nope. They can associate them with real world people when those addresses are used in conjunction with an entity in the real world. The distinction between a regulated bank and a regulated drug dealer is relatively moot by both legal and bitcoin protocols.
Yeah, you go on selling that snake oil to your gullible clients.
We'll, I am confused. Because the author has put out several articles here talking about how Bitcoin allows the repressed to get around government control.
So how does Bitcoin free me - but not Russian oligarchs?
I mean, this whole article is basically 'yeah, there are no real protections from surveillance in anything that uses a Blockchain'.
Because that is what a block chain is - as a ledger of activities it is a surveillance tool. The point of it is to allow *everyone* to see everything being done.
So how does Bitcoin free me - but not Russian oligarchs?
Because you're a pleb, and therefore, good and their not plebs, and therefore, evil. And a tool for unbridled good could never aid evil people.
And the price is just going up after the war and the sanctions because reasons.
Funny how easy it is for Reason to completely give the game away.
And it does: government cannot increase the bitcoin supply and it cannot seize bitcoins or transfer them without your signature. But bitcoin is a public ledger, so any transaction can be traced. That is by design.
That's because the government can sanction Russian oligarchs using conventional means, and because most of the kinds of things Russian oligarchs want to buy or sell, they need to convert bitcoin back into fiat currencies; that uses the banking system. The banking system and fiat currencies are under government control.
and because most of the kinds of things Russian oligarchs want to buy or sell, they need to convert bitcoin back into fiat currencies; that uses the banking system.
So do I.
For smaller amounts, you have many other options.
The author's whole deal about Bitcoin is that it can be used to bypass currency restrictions by buying directly.
I've pointed out that no one can really do that for several reasons - transaction verification times among them.
But if a Russian oligarch has to convert Bitcoin to fiat in order to buy something so does a Chinese dissident or a Canadian trucker.
Transaction times are currently high because cryptocurrencies are wildly popular. And that issue is being addressed with new protocols.
A Russian oligarch wants to transact in the equivalent of millions of dollars; there are few partners for such transactions.
The Chinese dissident or Canadian trucker wants to transact in the equivalent of hundreds of dollars. There are plenty of people happy to transact with you that way, without any intermediary.
No one transacts in millions of dollars because there is not enough liquidity to do so.
And an oligarch has to eat. How's he gonna buy the Bitcoin Bucket from KFC?
That is a laughably naive statement. Russian oligarchs have money, gold, property, jewelry, diamonds, etc. stashed around the world, in many countries, in many jurisdictions. They don't have to worry about "eating". The restrictions the West imposes on them are an inconvenience, nothing more, despite what government propaganda tells you.
There have been several billion dollar transactions in bitcoin.
The average transaction value is $175000, and the median transaction value is $650, which tells you that there must be many transactions with values of a million dollars or higher.
Hi Agammamon,
The reason the Russian government and its allied oligarchs cannot use Bitcoin to escape sanctions is that such a large transaction would distort the market and eat up the value these groups would be trying to preserve. Sen. Warren believed this can be evaded with transaction structuring and mixing -- but mixing services can indeed deanonymize this.
I've written before about how it's more difficult than people realize for dissidents -- I specifically discussed the truckers -- to conceal their transactions. It's very possible to minimize risk in ways before unavailable, but it takes a lot of work and care to do this: https://reason.com/2022/02/22/bitcoin-can-fix-financial-deplatforming-of-canadas-truckers-but-it-wont-be-easy/
Sorry, my comment sent before I was done.
I've also written about the pros and cons for Bitcoin and privacycoins custom built to maximize privacy by default: https://reason.com/2019/05/07/bitcoin-isnt-anonymous-is-that-a-dealbreaker/
It's all about individual risk profile and the best ways to minimize vulnerabilities. Privacycoins tend to have smaller communities and active developers; this means it might be harder to find bugs or even be able to detect them (auditability).
There is no perfect privacy with cryptocurrency, but for the motivated there are ways to improve vulnerabilities. This is a different situation than a government looking to move hundreds of billions of dollars in cryptocurrency without having purchased it in a privacy-focused way before the fact.
Cryptocurrencies are not the threat to U.S. financial power the elites want to present.
Which is it? Are cryptocurrencies the great equalizer that transfers financial powers away from central banks and towards individuals or are they not a threat to the financial power of central banks?
Nobody knows, but we should listen to people who really don’t know.
Cryptocurrencies are a threat to US financial power: they can't be debased, they can't be seized, transactions can't be controlled, forced, or taxed. And cryptocurrencies are also anonymous.
What governments can control is when cryptocurrencies are converted to/from fiat currencies. That's where they can deanonymize transactions, report to the IRS, etc.
Once cryptocurrencies are widely accepted as a form of payment, that conversion goes away, and governments are then completely out of the loop. That is what spooks people like Warren. That is why US and European governments have been trying very, very hard to make it difficult for businesses to transact in cryptocurrencies.
they can't be debased, they can't be seized, transactions can't be controlled, forced, or taxed.
This is only true on paper. There are many vectors and ways to control transactions. If you think Safeway, BMW or Amazon wouldn't play ball with financial regulators in a fully realized Bitcoin World, you're mistaken.
I still don't know what you mean by 'seized'. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're using a nuanced or narrow definition of seized. I have a duffle bag of cash in my basement which I could argue can't be 'seized' because it sits in no regulated financial institution.
Once cryptocurrencies are widely accepted as a form of payment, that conversion goes away, and governments are then completely out of the loop.
Half true. "Once" is the keyword. I'm guessing we won't see it in our lifetime.
But again, to say government will be 'completely' out of the loop is naive to to the extreme. Governments can always get in the loop. Again, do you really believe that Amazon, Whole Foods and Big 5 Sporting Goods is going to hide their transaction data from regulators? Yes, you can transact with a guy on the street fairly anonymously. But you can do that now with cash. You're not going to transact anonymously in a complex financial system with above-board, regulated players anonymously.
The government can seize your bank account. That is, they can go to the bank and say "transfer this money to the government and don't allow any more transactions". They cannot do that with cryptocurrencies. The only way the government can take your cryptocurrency is if you give them the key.
Correct. And the intent of cryptocurrencies is to give your the same kind of freedoms you have with cash, cash in a currency that the government cannot debase.
Why would I want to transact with a complex financial system at all? All our "complex financial system" does is add costs and risks to every single transaction carried out through it.
You're not going to transact anonymously in a complex financial system with above-board, regulated players anonymously.
Between fascists like Warren, the propaganda and lobbying power of the multi-trillion dollar financial industry, and uninformed naysayers like you, we will probably never see it in the US. Nevertheless, I can at least try to correct misconceptions.
The government has seized many, many crypto wallets already.
Let's start with needing crypto exchanges to do anything useful & converting 'slow money's Bitcoin and Ethereum into 'fast money's stablecoin to reduce transaction times and costs - these are *companies* and companies are extremely vulnerable to government coercion.
Ethereum runs into problems because the most popular exchanges are choked with users, spiking gas prices so high it can, by the end of a multi hour long transaction process, cost more in the transaction bounty than the thing you're buying cost.
And, at the end of the day, crypto is psuedonymous, not anonymous.
Yes, if you keep your cryptowallet at a company like Coinbase, they can seize it there. That is, if you give your keys to a third party, then obviously, that third party has full control over your bitcoins and may choose to comply with government demands for both reporting and seizure. What does that have to do with seizing bitcoins?
Whether you use crypto exchanges or not is your own choice.
In other words, bitcoin and ethereum are so successful and popular that we currently have high transaction costs.
Good thing that the protocols are being upgraded to address this issue.
So, what's your point again?
1. You don't need the keys to revoke access. That is seizing.
2. It's not a choice to use an exchange - hardly anyone sells for Bitcoin or Ethereum (or any other) directly.
3. They're not successful. They're speculative vehicles.
4. You can't just 'upgrade the protocols'. It simply doesn't work like that.
5. There has been some talk about Ethereum moving to 'proof of stake' - but that's just talk and the big holders have been fighting this because the current 'proof of work' system allows them outsized benefits due to their large capital expenditures.
Really? How exactly does that work? How does the government even know which accounts I hold bitcoin in? Come on, you made the claim, put some meat on it.
And by "hardly anyone" you mean "hardly an commercial US business"? That's correct, because the IRS has made such transactions a nightmare. So what?
I'm sorry you seem so unfamiliar with cryptocurrencies that you are unaware of the steps people are taking to make small transactions fast and cheap. I suggest you read up a bit more on what's going on in the crypto space.
1. I already told you. By observing the transactions you discover the wallets. By observing the whole system you gather enough data to link a *psuedonymous user* to a real world identity. FFS we do it all the time for criminal investigations.
2. The so what is you need to buy bread.
3. I don't need to 'read up more' and, frankly, writing that is an admission that you've run up against the limits of your canned replies but don't want to admit that I have a point.
On top of the nasty, defensive tone you've been taking with people here who have pointed out where your misconceptions of crypto are.
You can only discover addresses from transactions; you cannot "discover wallets".
If people put their wallets in the custody of a company like Coinbase, then that works. But that's a choice you make; it has nothing to do with Bitcoin per se.
The government has seized many, many crypto wallets already.
----------
These are the crypto equivalent of leaving your money in the bank where the authorities can get it. Not your keys, not your coins.
They've seized the offline hardware coins have been stored in too.
Offline hardware doesn't "store coins". And seizing it doesn't do anybody any good unless they have the password.
Seizing it doesn't even deny people access to their coins unless they were foolish enough not to have backups.
By 'seized' we mean 'take away your access and control of'.
The government doesn't need to be able to transfer your crypto to it's wallet - it just needs to take it from you.
Really? And how is the government going to take away my access to my bitcoins without me giving up the key?
This should be interesting.
It's actually easy. That USB stick you have the hashes on? Boom, cop took it.
That server you have them on? Boom, cop took it. Or simply forced them to revoke your access to the server.
Next you'll be telling us how NFT's are forever.
So now they have to send some cops to take physical custody of some hardware for every single person on the government's blacklist. That's a significantly higher hurdle than simply sending that blacklist to some bureaucrat's bank buddies and have them automatically freeze the entire blacklist's assets in one click.
First of all, I'm glad we agree that the only way that the government can actually "seize bitcoins" is by physically taking possession of the keys. The government cannot simply interfere in the operation of the bitcoin network to invalidate transactions or transfer money. Glad we settled that.
Bitcoin wallets are cryptographically protected. Why in the world would anyone keep them only on a single USB stick or server in a single location?
A Russian oligarch could have a USB stick with their bitcoin wallet in every one of their residences around the globe and no government could deny him access to his bitcoins or transfer the bitcoins out of his wallet.
The government can seize your bank account. That is, they can go to the bank and say "transfer this money to the government and don't allow any more transactions".
Ah, so they can just go to the bank and tell them to transfer all the Russian Oligarchs' funds and not to allow any more transactions and bitcoin is preventing that from happening.
Continue pretending your sword isn't double-edged as it slits your own throat. The rest of us are under no obligation to be similarly stupid.
Correct.
I don't see anything "double edged" about it. If you think that the US government should be able to seize the foreign financial assets of foreigners, you are a lawless totalitarian.
What the US government can still do with any criminal is put them on trial and if found guilty, sentence them to financial penalties, and put them in jail if they fail to comply. The criminal can then choose to pay with their bitcoin or with any other assets. That's how a nation based on the rule of law works.
Correct.
I don't think you understand how any of this works at a fundamental level.
I don't see anything "double edged" about it.
Right. Even relatively high-functioning retards recognize that they're retarded. You're willfully stupifying yourself below their level.
If you think that the US government should be able to seize the foreign financial assets of foreigners, you are a lawless totalitarian.
I didn't say should, I said could. Considering you not only don't seem to understand the distinction but insist on being wrong even when you fail, well we're back to being willfully retarded.
What the US government can still do with any criminal is put them on trial and if found guilty, sentence them to financial penalties, and put them in jail if they fail to comply. The criminal can then choose to pay with their bitcoin or with any other assets. That's how a nation based on the rule of law works.
You say this like, by your own assertions and precepts, the government is still largely free to void your security in person and effects with or without bitcoin.
You're welcome to try to explain it to me.
Well, and it can't do it for any wealth that a Russian oligarch holds in bitcoin. QED.
You're welcome to try to explain it to me.
I never claimed I could make you understand. How about you explain it to me? It's been 30 yrs. since the fall of the SU, almost 20 yrs. before Satoshi published his paper. If it's been as simple as going to the bank, transferring the Oligarchs' wealth and freezing their transactions, how are they able to conduct a war? If their assets can be frozen in a bank whimsically, then what's the concern that their wealth will suddenly turn up in BTC wallets?
If it's not so simple as transferring their wealth and freezing their accounts, then what does the advantages BTC claims to offer represent other than something between nuanced irrelevance and outright falsehood?
Seriously, a decade ago your idiocy had play. Now, even relatively uneducated people can see that, even with BTC, the governments of Russia, China, America, Australia, Canadian, New Zealand, Venezuela, Iran, etc., etc. can still seize or otherwise violate your freedom of association and security of persons and effects and BTC can't do dick about the issue.
I have no idea what you're trying to say. Obviously, wealth that is already frozen cannot be transferred into bitcoin in the first place; that has nothing to do with bitcoin and everything with the banking system.
Any wealth Russian oligarchs had stored in bitcoin prior to the sanctions is beyond the reach of US and European governments or sanctions (provided the Russian oligarchs kept their keys secure).
Bitcoin also doesn't cure cancer. I don't see what that has to do with anything.
If used correctly, bitcoin provides a means of storing and transferring value that is beyond any government's or other authority's control: the amount of bitcoins in circulation cannot be inflated and cannot be manipulated; transactions can only be carried out and account balances can only be altered with valid user-controlled keys (there is no master key); and you can transact with bitcoin without providing any identifying information.
These properties make bitcoin very different from the financial and banking system in the US and Europe, and these properties align bitcoin much more with libertarian principles.
I really don't see what your problem is understanding these basic properties of bitcoin and how they differ from the banking system.
I have no idea what you're trying to say.
I know. I said I couldn't make you understand. An adult acting in good faith, a child, a retarded person... I could impart understanding to them. You willfully cannot understand and when I said I can't make you, you agreed.
I really don't see what your problem is understanding these basic properties of bitcoin and how they differ from the banking system.
I understand the basic properties of bitcoin, better than you do. As I stated, you don't understand the current banking system or the larger concepts of barter, value, transactions, trade, trust, cryptographic security and you clearly don't want to. Keep playing stupid, I'm sure more and more people will be impressed by your stupidity and come to the conclusion that BTC is a revolutionary new technology implemented by a genius based on your admitted refusal to understand.
Well, I want to thank you mad.casual. Your argument has been consistently that bitcoin is not anynymous; i.e., that the US government collects sufficient metadata and has enough rubber hoses so that every bitcoin transaction can be deanonymized. In fact, you even stated that dead drops and one time pads can be deanonymized that way. Let's be clear: that's a statement not about cryptocurrencies, it's a statement about how totalitarian you believe the US government to be.
But, you see, Warren and other progressives disagree with you; if the US government actually were that powerful, they wouldn't keep trying to pass new laws to increase surveillance and financial regulations even further. So, you need to take your argument to them, not to me.
As for me, I don't see bitcoin catching on as a regular medium for exchange for US citizens because US financial regulations are already too cumbersome; I don't recommend US citizens use cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies will catch abroad first.
Ah, so they can just go to the bank and tell them to transfer all the Russian Oligarchs' funds and not to allow any more transactions and bitcoin is preventing that from happening.
Bitcoin isn't preventing it from happening, but any Russian citizen that had bitcoin (or any crypto, for that matter) still has that bitcoin, even if all his USD was seized by foreign governments.
Real cryptocurrency is still in its infancy. There's a ton of technical issues to iron out before it can practically replace central bank fiat in everyday use. But the potential for it is there.
There's a ton of technical issues to iron out before it can practically replace central bank fiat in everyday use.
There's a ton of technical issues to iron out before communism can practically replace private ownership in everyday use too.
But the potential for it is there.
No, it's not. It's like saying "With the invention of the database, we will completely void capitalism, accounting, and economics."
It's like saying "With the invention of the database, we will completely void capitalism, accounting, and economics."
It's closer to saying "With the invention of the database, physical spreadsheets filled in by hand will become obsolete."
I don't see where you're getting the connection between databases and communism, much less cryptocurrency and communsim.
It's closer to saying "With the invention of the database, physical spreadsheets filled in by hand will become obsolete."
Which would be phenomenally ignorant considering databases predate spreadsheets by almost a decade and, regardless of spreadsheets or databases, can't be self-populated/still have to be populated externally.
I don't see where you're getting the connection between databases and communism, much less cryptocurrency and communsim.
You mean, almost like the issue isn't the databases or the cryptocurrency but creeping authoritarianism and technocracy? Huh.
creeping authoritarianism and technocracy
Creeping authoritarianism, technocracy, *and* scientism.
The way to fight authoritarianism and technocracy is to become technically savvy and adopt technologies that help preserve privacy and autonomy.
We have "creeping authoritarianism and technocracy" because people like you give up control to centralized institutions. It's because people like you misunderstand "authoritarianism and technocracy" as a political problem, when it is really a cultural and educational problem.
It's because people like you misunderstand "authoritarianism and technocracy" as a political problem, when it is really a cultural and educational problem.
OK, by your own statements BTC is a technical solution to a behavioral problem and it won't work unless people are properly reeducated and culturally conditioned to its use. How very ex cathedra but totally anti-fiat of you.
I'd say I'm sure you understand if millions of individuals chose not to be reeducated by your BTC fanaticism but, again by your own statements, you don't understand.
Where did I say that bitcoin was a "technical solution to a behavioral problem"? I stated a bunch of properties that bitcoin has, that's all
I'm not a bitcoin fanatic. I don't give a f*ck whether you use bitcoin or not. In fact, let me state it clearly: given current US financial regulations, you'd be a fool to use cryptocurrencies because the reporting requirements are too onerous and complex.
You are the guy with an ax to grind. You are the guy who is fanatically anti-crypto, pulling ad hominems out of your ass in just about every post.
I thought that was the whole selling point of bitcoin, that it would protect your money from government action.
And it does: the government is unable to increase the supply of bitcoins and it is unable to seize or transfer bitcoins against anybody's will.
The government is able to trace transactions between accounts on the bitcoin network, but by itself, that preserves anonymity because accounts are anonymous.
But conventional police methods still work. When you change bitcoin into dollars, that can be tracked by the government. And when police show up, they can try to compel you to document where you got those dollars from, meaning they can potentially identify whoever you did business with.
Arguably, bitcoin presents a good balance between privacy, security, freedom from government interference, and the ability to have reasonable law enforcement. Governments should embrace it.
There are newer protocols that are fully untraceable. If governments don't embrace bitcoin, people are likely going to migrate to those.
and it is unable to seize or transfer bitcoins against anybody's will.
that's not true. Bitcoins have be seized all over the place.
The government is able to trace transactions between accounts on the bitcoin network, but by itself, that preserves anonymity because accounts are anonymous.
That's not true. You can work hard to keep your anonymity, but anonymity isn't built into the system.
There are newer protocols that are fully untraceable. If governments don't embrace bitcoin, people are likely going to migrate to those.
As I've been saying for years, there are infinite permutations of digital currencies, which makes them inherently unstable. If faith in your currency is the same faith users put into Friendster or MySpace, you can see pretty quickly how The Next Thing could cause a stampede away from said currency, causing its value to collapse over night. This isn't the kind of thing that helps normies sleep at night.
Look, you can keep playing word games. The fact remains that if I own $1M in bitcoin and I keep my key secret, there is no way the government can seize that $1M in bitcoin. None. The government can't even determine whether I actually have $1M in bitcoin.
This is fundamentally different from keeping that $1M in the financial system, where the government can go to the bank and simply take the money. If you don't understand the difference, I'm sorry, that's your problem.
Again, you're playing word games. What I said is absolutely true: bitcoin accounts are anonymous, period. Furthermore, most transactions use fresh accounts.
Well, given how little you seem to know about economics or how cryptocurrencies operate, people should take what you are saying for what it's worth.
If you like you can, of course, get "stablecoins" that are tied to an asset as soft as the US dollar. You can also get commodities-backed cryptocurrencies like PAX and Tether if you prefer those.
My USD cash holdings worry me a lot more than my bitcoin or gold holdings at this point. If it wasn't for the insane US tax regime, I would get out of USD altogether.
These people don't even understand the way the way transactions work. They assume once you have bitcoin wallet A, all your transactions forever will come from bitcoin wallet A.
It's almost like you think you can fool people, who've been studying economics and doing financial forensics for centuries, can be fooled by a simple bait and switch.
If you have been "studying economics and doing financial forensics for centuries", I pity your clients. Or do you work for the government?
I pity your clients.
So we can agree that lying is in your repertoire.
To the contrary: I genuinely pity whoever you are working for.
Ask users of TOR how anonymous they were.
Bitcoin, et al, are psuedonymous, not anonymous.
Like anywhere else, metadata can be used to remove anonymity.
I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. A pseudonymous system would require you to provide identifiable information as a condition of using the system. In a pseudonymous system, the ability to identify users is built into the protocol/system.
Bitcoin and most other cryptocurrencies are indeed anonymous: you can perform transactions on them completely without providing any real-world identifiers.
Like all anonymous systems, forensic techniques and usage errors can often be used to deanonymize users; but that's not a property of the protocol, and it doesn't make the system "pseudonymous".
Everytime you use the internet you provide identifiable information - metadata.
It's how the USG security services de-anonymize criminals and terrorists. That's on top of seeding tracking software into supposedly anonymous systems (like TOR).
As I was saying like all anonymous systems, forensic techniques and usage errors can often be used to deanonymize users. That fact doesn't make the bitcoin protocol "pseudonymous".
Most people don't worry about forensic analysis because they either don't know or because (like me) they just comply with US laws and regulations (I just keep my wallet on Coinbase, FWIW). But anybody knowledgeable can use bitcoin (and the Internet) anonymously if they choose to; millions living in totalitarian regimes like China do it every day.
As for Tor, it has intrinsic design problems; given that Tor was partially developed by the US government, that may not even be entirely accidental.
I think bitcoin actually strikes a reasonable balance between traceability and anonymity; I think it is good that with forensic techniques, it is possible to deanonymize criminals in many cases. But if the US government starts abusing that power, other, more privacy-preserving cryptocurrencies are likely going to replace bitcoin.
I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. A pseudonymous system would require you to provide identifiable information as a condition of using the system. In a pseudonymous system, the ability to identify users is built into the protocol/system.
Bitcoin and most other cryptocurrencies are indeed anonymous: you can perform transactions on them completely without providing any real-world identifiers.
This is fundamentally incorrect a 'not even wrong' inversion of the logic. Seriously, it's like you don't even know what a pseudonym is.
Really? How is my statement that "you can perform transactions on them completely without providing any real-world identifiers" wrong?
Well, then enlighten me by giving your definition of "pseudonymous", "anonymous", and the difference between the two. Then, give some examples of a service you actually consider "anonymous".
How is my statement that "you can perform transactions on them completely without providing any real-world identifiers" wrong?
You guys aren't fooling anyone with your idiocy and the longer you keep at it, the more obvious it becomes. If I say "The road is wet." and "Rain falls from the sky." neither statement is false. "Wet roads cause rain." is the falsehood. A pseudonymous system doesn't require you to provide identifiable information. Specifically the opposite, it can generate its own false identifiers, i.e. pseudonyms.
Well, then enlighten me by giving your definition of "pseudonymous", "anonymous", and the difference between the two.
Can't. My 8 yr. old can look both up in the dictionary and figure out the difference. Giving you more credit than you deserve, you probably have done so and choose to believe the dictionary or technical cryptographic definitions or both don't apply because Satoshi is a GENEEUS.
Then, give some examples of a service you actually consider "anonymous".
It's funny that someone who supposedly understands that bitcoin can't be seized seems to think that anonymity can be. Almost like you don't give a shit about what any of what you're saying means as long as you can get people to believe your lies.
It's arguable that there are no systems that cannot be deanonymized. Dead drops of one-time pads is as close as you get. Outside of (and potentially inclusing) those, the question isn't 'Is it anonymous?', it's 'How hard is it to deanonymize.' and for a blockchain, by design, the answer is 'The greater the usage, the easier it is.'
Pseudonymous in the dictionary just refers to people using "false or fictitious names" (where "name" refers to human names). Bitcoin uses no names at all, therefore it is not "pseudonymous". That was easy.
Yes, you can always use forensic techniques to deanonymize some users of every systems. We agree on that. But forensic techniques are techniques outside the system.
The US banking system is not an anonymous system because you are required to give your identity in order to transact with it. You are not required to give your identity in order to transact with bitcoin and forensic techniques are incapable of deanonymizing many bitcoin transactions.
I have no idea who you mean by "you guys". I have no particular stake in bitcoin. I have a small bitcoin wallet on Coinbase, that's it. I use it to recharge my debit card with it every now and then. US regulations and taxes make any other use of bitcoin too cumbersome right now. I just think that bitcoin is a good technology, not so much even for privacy reasons, but to eliminate financial intermediaries.
You claim to be a forensics expert on financial transactions. So clearly, unlike me, you do have an interest in misrepresenting your ability to track transactions and deanonymize poeople. It is you who is lying to people about your capabilities, and given your profession, it isn't hard to see why.
But, hey, prove me wrong: deanonymize Satoshi Nakamoto for me.
"false or fictitious names" (where "name" refers to human names)
Others will readily note your use of quotes, denoting the actual words in the dictionary, and the use of parenthesis, you substituting your words. Most would call this a lie. Yes, it's easy to "prove" anything when you openly lie.
You claim to be a forensics expert on financial transactions.
I made no such claim. Not only did I not make the claim to be a financial forensics expert, you failed to accurately reproduce what would've been claimed by my statements. "People have been playing baseball for decades." doesn't mean *I've* been playing for decades and, even if I had, your reply of "Prove you're the best baseball player ever by hitting more home runs in one season or throwing more curve ball strikeouts than anyone who's ever played baseball." doesn't validate the claim I didn't make.
deanonymize Satoshi Nakamoto for me.
Per my own statements, Satoshi's never moved (or used) his BTC. Ross Ulbricht, OTOH...
Lie. Lie. Lie. Keep going. I'm sure you'll convince people that the real problem with BTC's lack of adoption is their trust in technology.
Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.
So let's be clear then: you are not a forensics or economics expert.
You were simply trying to make an argument by appealing to some unnamed authority.
Thanks for clarifying.
Others can look up the dictionary definition themselves. It is what I stated it is. "Pseudonym" refers to the use of fictitious or false names. Bitcoin doesn't use names at all, fictitious or otherwise. Bitcoin has nothing that functions as a name either.
Yes, and your own statement is worth sh*t because nobody knows, or can tell, how much money Nakamoto has moved.
Ross Ulbricht was identified using traditional surveillance techniques. Bitcoin only entered the case in that Ulbricht apparently kept an insecure wallet on his laptop, which then allowed it to be used as another piece of evidence at his trial.
Bitcoin Won't Help Russia Bypass World Sanctions
And it won't help you bypass sanctions either.
Warren has officially gone from proto-fascist to undeniably full fascist.
The government can starve you with bitcoin but not of bitcoin!
The actual quote from Brandeis is "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the process of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."
The distillation "The best remedy for bad speech is more speech." assumes good faith, that the more speech isn't just generating more and different bad speech.
"Cryptocurrencies are not the threat to U.S. financial power the elites want to present"
In a certain way, that's a bummer