Idaho Lawmakers Threaten To Jail Librarians for Letting Kids Read LGBT Books
A new bill would alter state law to remove an educational exception for disseminating works the community deems "harmful" to minors.

Idaho lawmakers are threatening librarians and some other educational employees with fines and even jail for exposing minors to material the government deems harmful.
Idaho, like most states, has a law that makes it a crime to expose or provide to youths under the age of 18 material that includes nudity, sexual conduct, or sadomasochism either in imagery or description. The penalty for violating the law is a fine of up to $1,000 and up to one year in jail.
There are a number of affirmative defenses that people are permitted to use if they're charged with violating the law: if the defendant reasonably believed the minor was actually of legal age (they had a false I.D., for example); if the minor is accompanied by a consenting parent or guardian; and for the moment, if the defendant is an employee of a library, school, university, museum or similar educational organization serving in his or her capacity as an employee.
A bill that passed Idaho's House (51-14) Monday would eliminate the library and educational institution exception. H.B. 666 (no, really), would simply strike out the part of the law that provides a defense for school and museum employees and librarians and replaces it with nothing at all. This has left librarians worried that they could be subjected to criminal penalties for any works that present nudity or sexual contact regardless of the context.
Existing Idaho law establishes that this restriction doesn't apply to a work that "possesses serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors, according to prevailing standards in the adult community, with respect to what is suitable for minors."
And so, in this new culture war reboot of 1980s-era LGBT panic, a law that determines what is and isn't harmful based on the "prevailing standards in the adult community" is a political minefield that defies a consistent or even coherent definition. The Idaho Capital Sun reported from a hearing on the bill last week where parents brought books they've encountered with LGBT content and declared that it should count as obscene or pornographic regardless of whether it even contained any sort of nudity or sexual content:
One parent was upset that her daughter encountered a library book that depicted a romance between a prince and a knight who slay a dragon together and are supported by their community.
Books mentioned included "An ABC of Equality," "Lawn Boy," "Fun Home: A Family Tragicomic" and "Gender Queer: A Memoir."
"How did we go from 'Pollyanna' to drag queen for the kids? My daughter's innocence was violated," parent Kara Claridge told legislators. "But what happens when kids start acting on these graphic behaviors put forth in these books?"
Yes, we are back to this bizarre belief that homosexuality or bisexuality is not caused by a complex set of genetic and biological factors but by kids being exposed to works that treat gay people the same as straight people. Just reading about gay people violates a child's innocence and will simply cause children to decide to turn gay.
This, of course, is not true, and it's particularly strange for all of this to return to the culture wars given that gay marriage and relationships are now fully legal across all 50 states and are treated the same as heterosexual marriages under the law. Most Americans—and even a majority of Republicans—support the legal recognition of same-sex relationships.
Opponents of H.B. 666 say it's unconstitutionally vague. The Associated Press reported Monday that Democratic House Minority Leader Ilana Rubel (D–Boise) was not actually able to get an answer from bill sponsor Rep. Gayann DeMordaunt (R–Eagle) on whether a librarian could be prosecuted for stocking a Judy Blume book that references masturbation.
The vagueness is clearly partly the point. If lawmakers actually had to list specific works they found obscene then they'd have to deal with the specific defenses of those works (things like the legality of same-sex relationships and medical and psychological endorsement of trans treatments). By simply creating a risk of prosecution, libraries will remove works out of fear of getting arrested and having to defend the right to provide access to these works. It's not unlike the "Don't Say Gay" bill in Florida that threatens schools with potentially costly civil prosecutions for violating vaguely defined prohibitions against discussion sexual orientation and gender identity. The vagueness is intended to make schools think twice about allowing discussion of the topic at all in order to make sure they don't get into legal hot water. The Florida bill just passed today and has been sent to Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis for his signature.
In these "for the sake of the children" culture war fights, inevitably the adults reveal that it's never about what is or isn't obscene or even culturally accepted (because, again, we like the gays now). It's about what they personally approve of. A quote from Monday's House vote summed it up nicely:
"I would rather my 6-year-old grandson start smoking cigarettes tomorrow than get a view of this stuff one time at the public library," said Republican Rep. Bruce Skaug (Nampa).
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The U. S. Supreme Court upheld an obscene-as-to-minors law in 1968...
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/390/629/
...and the opinion was issued by that arch-reactionary William Brennan.
And now, as Paul Harvey would say, you know the rest of the story.
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"kids being exposed to works that treat gay people the same as straight people."
But earlier in the article you mention what the specifically forbids:
"exposing] or provid[ing] to youths under the age of 18 material that includes nudity, sexual conduct, or sadomasochism either in imagery or description."
So it's not just gays.
AND it's not a crime if the parent or guardian consents.
AND it's not a crime if it has artistic, etc. value as to minors.
So removing the librarians' guild privilege seems less scary than it might seem at first.
I would imagine that, in practice, librarians would put the nudity and sadomasochism, etc., on a shelf for access by parents whose kids don't have Internet connections.
@Cal Cetin
The issue is that parents are treating books that portray a chaste romance between two men or two women the same as a book depicting hardcore heterosexual porn.
No one objects to kids reading a fairy tale where Cinderella and Prince Charming kiss and get married. But it is apparently "obscene" and violating a child's innocence to show two men or two women doing the same thing.
...except it has to go to court to prove if it was obscene. "Snow White but with two dudes" will not be an issue in court.
Sorry, but activists have lost ALL benefit of the doubt.
@damikesc
Going to court is a painful, difficult, emotionally draining process. Even if you are certain to win, the fear of having to go through it is enough to deter a lot of people. There is a reason why "frivolous lawsuits" are such a problem in society. Even when the plaintiff loses, they still do immense social harm.
When you provide evidence of this law being used to do that, I will worry. Until then, I shall not.
These activists brought this all upon themselves.
Cite?
Because generally the books mentioned include graphics of minors giving blow jobs and explicit sex scenes.
Since it's a Shackford article I just assumed he was glossing over rampant pedophilia in the books.
Shackford seems to have a relentless obsession with exposing children to sexual content out of the purview and authority of their parents and doing it as early in their life as possible. Coincidentally [or not], that's the goal of most pedos.
It wouldn't shock me that Shackford's next article would be written behind bars if his hard drive accidentally fell into the hands of the FBI.
Except that that is not true at all.
Cinderella's kiss would, under the law, be just as legal/illegal if she was a he.
Parents have a right to shield their children from the abnormality of homosexuality.
We want the best for our children - no parent secretly says to themselves " I sure hope little Johnny grows up to be a butt pirate". Not all lifestyles are of equal value.
Shut your mouth he's trying to defend sbp!
They really, really want to peddle sexually explicit material to kids. That’s two "outrages" about other peoples’ kids being off limits this week alone.
And they use the *threat* that if you ban them from doing so, it will make the kids want it more. It's gotta make you wonder what Shackford does with his time that isn't spent trying to push explicit materials onto kids. I've met Shackford and he exudes "creep".
if the prince marries a prince how will the bloodline continue?
"Don't you oppress me!"
By using a woman as a breeding animal.
That's what I was thinking. The gay princes make no sense. Royal marriages are for producing royal offspring. The prince can fuck whoever he wants on the side, but he's got obligations.
Royal fairy tale weddings are such a stupid trope.
As long as it’s public school, it’s not a private company.
None of these books are in public school libraries in Idaho. The parents that brought the examples to the meeting got them from the adult sections of the public, not school, libraries.
It's irrelevant because almost every "employee of a library, school, university, museum or similar educational organization" is therefore an employee of the state and can't be sued in the first place under the doctrine of (un)qualified immunity.
Okay, I suppose that leaves a few private school teachers and museum curators to worry about. But for the most part, this is one of those happy accidents where two really bad laws will cancel out.
Jesus Christ, this line:
"The vagueness is clearly partly the point."
As if SPECIFIC definitions would not lead to activists parsing words to a degree to make them meaningless.
LOL, the bill was introduced by a legislator from Eaglefornia, where ex-Californian Republicans go to colonize Idaho. And I’ve had commenters here tell me the red states are going to be turned liberal by all the incoming Californians — they don’t understand how the partisan sorting going on this country really works.
California Republicans may as well be flaming progressives by the metrics of the rest of the nation.
From what I have read that described "Fun Home" and "Genderqueer" are packaged as young children's books that have rather explicit descriptions and illustrations of sex acts involving children. It would seem that in the rush to be "accepting" the publishing industry has become wildly irresponsible in order to pander to LGBT activists.
Like a lot of movements, the LGBT movement started out with noble goals and ambitions. Having accomplished most of those the movement must find new causes to champion or risk becoming irrelevant, and unfortunately it seems they've decided that normalizing pedophilia is how they should spend their time.
Activist movements rarely declare "good enough, time to pack it up and go home". They find more and more extreme issues to champion because most activists have nothing going on in their lives other than activism.
>unfortunately it seems they've decided that normalizing pedophilia is how they should spend their time.
No one in the LGBT movement is doing that. The idea that anyone outside of a small lunatic fringe is doing that is one of the Big Lies of our time.
Teenagers have sex with each other. This is a thing that happens and something that works of fiction attempting to portray human life should be able to depict, because it is part of life. Obviously using actual teenage actors to do this is bad. But merely publishing books that describe or draw pictures of characters without harming or exploiting any real people is not a problem.
>Having accomplished most of those the movement must find new causes to champion or risk becoming irrelevant
This is a very salient point, but not in the way that you think. Our society has done such a great job at stigmatizing pedophilia (and rightly so) that activists have decided to vastly expand the definition of what pedophilia is so that they can keep claiming that our society isn't doing enough to stop it. Now any work that depicts teenagers engaging in sexual activity has become "child pornography" and "pedophilia," even if they are having sex with other teenagers their own age rather than with adults, and even if the work merely describes the events happening without ever involving real teens in its production..
"No one in the LGBT movement is doing that. The idea that anyone outside of a small lunatic fringe is doing that is one of the Big Lies of our time."
Care to guess what group is championing Minor Attracted Persons (MAP)?
"Teenagers have sex with each other. This is a thing that happens and something that works of fiction attempting to portray human life should be able to depict, because it is part of life. Obviously using actual teenage actors to do this is bad. But merely publishing books that describe or draw pictures of characters without harming or exploiting any real people is not a problem."
It kinda is when kids have open access to it.
>Care to guess what group is championing Minor Attracted Persons (MAP)?
As far as I can tell, that was a statement made by a single individual criminology professor, not a "group." The professor was making the point that it is the act of molesting children that is wrong, and that a pedophile who controls themselves and does not actually molest anyone has not done anything bad. A bunch of people heard this comment and... I want to say they took it out of context, but that is too charitable. It would be more accurate to say that a bunch of insane, stupid morons really, really want liberals and leftists to be pro-child-molestation for some reason. So they took a statement that was categorically against molesting children and lied and pretended that it was in favor of it, even though it meant the opposite. I think what is going on is that a lot of conservatives are sick of being called "racist" by liberals and progressives, so they are trying to find an equally bad word to call them, even when it makes no sense.
You should not believe things that a bunch of stupid liars say. For all their sins progressives and liberals have never been in favor of pedophilia. The people who think they are are fools. The correct response to progressive SJWs calling you racist is to tell them they are morons who are wrong. It is not to make up a silly rationalization for why they are something even worse than a racist.
You have certain types of progressives celebrating a prepubescent boy dressing in drag and performing a burlesque routine for grown men, but they are not in favor pedophilia. Yeah, right.
It was a professor speaking to an interview the Prostasia Foundation, a California based LGBT+ group that is trying to destigmatize "Minor Attracted Persons," to be specific.
So, "a bunch of queer lefties want to legally fuck children" WOULD be an accurate summary.
If it's a natural part of life and not problematic in any way, why would using real teenage actors be bad?
Your argument is that this is totally fine, if it is why should the live action version be prohibited while the drawn version isn't? Those teen actors are just engaging in natural activity after all.
@Fat Mike's Drug Habit
>"If it's a natural part of life and not problematic in any way, why would using real teenage actors be bad?"
I never said that. I said that teenagers having sex with each other was part of life, I did not say if it was a good part or bad part. All I said was that it was a thing that happens, so people who seek to portray life in art should be able to do so. Murder is a thing that happens too, and it is portrayed in art. That does not mean murder is good.
Even if I was saying it is not bad for teenagers to have sex with each other, there is a huge difference between having sex with your significant other and acting in a pornographic or erotic movie. The live action version is legally child pornography. The drawn version is not, since no children were filmed. Similarly a live-action show like "Euphoria," where under-18 characters are portrayed by adult actors, is not a problem either.
You are fucking gaslighting. People have seen the material. They've seen illustrations of minor on adult blow jobs. Youre full of shit.
This is the movement ls push for grooming of children.
Which book are you referring to? I am looking up that "Genderqueer" book and the only blow job illustrations I see appear to be between two people of the same approximate age. I know a bunch of liars tried to get it banned by claiming it was between an adult and child, but they are obviously full of it. Don't let them mislead you.
There is no movement even close to mainstream anywhere that pushes for the grooming of children. That is a lie promoted by conspiracy theorists and pathologically lying bigots.
You have a point about conflating normal youthful sexual activity and pedophilia. Attraction to a sexually mature teenager is not pedophilia. It may be inappropriate or wrong in many or most cases to act on such an attraction, but it's not pathological or strange like attraction to a prepubescent child is.
>No one in the LGBT movement is doing that. The idea that anyone outside of a small lunatic fringe is doing that is one of the Big Lies of our time.
It's more than a little ironic that you post this comment on a Shackford article since he spends a significant portion of his time trying to justify exposing children to explicit content. It's called desensitization or "priming the pump" and it really isn't all that hard to understand.
This is it exactly. Homosexuality has been completely normalized in society. Gays enjoy the exact same rights in every respect as straights. SCOTUS has declared that civil rights laws apply equally to gay and transgendered people- and the opinion was written by a Trump appointee, no less. LGBT people have all the same rights as anyone else.
But they can't deal with the loss of martyr status, and need to keep pushing further and further into nut-job territory, doing and saying ever more crazy shit, and then shrieking when people don't accept it. I remember, several years ago, Shackford even wrote an article to that effect: we got what we wanted, we won the fight, so stop acting like martyrs.
Get your fucking lobby under control, Shackford. Stop letting the craziest members dictate your agenda if you don't like the results.
Like a lot of movements, the LGBT movement started out with noble goals and ambitions.
Disagree. Might as well say "The LGBT movement started out with good intentions." Sure, some of the people involved would be mortified to realize they were actively engaged in destroying *g*ood *f*aith and paving the road to hell, but most, since the beginning, didn't give a shit any more than your average 60s or 70s era misogynist gave about anyone else's intentions about their own.
Both books depict the teenage protagonists engaging in the sort of sexual activity that is typical and common among teenagers. I don't see how that's any worse than "Riverdale," "13 Reasons Why," "Euphoria" or any of those other soap-opera type shows that teens watch all the time.
"Euphoria" is routinely aired in public schools or libraries?
Pretty sure it is rated M.
Fairly sure even TV "experts" have said it is a little bit much on the sex stuff.
@damikesc
I don't think "Euphoria" is on DVD yet, but I imagine public libraries will carry it when it is. They have DVDs of similarly explicit shows like "Game of Thrones," "The L Word," and that "Spartacus" TV show.
Do kids have access to it? Can kids check it out? Can they view it at the library?
Will go ahead and predict...no, they cannot.
It's pretty sad when you justify children reading sexually explicit materials by pointing to sexually explicit TV. Our parenting tips are to be taken from Hollywood now? If Harvey Weinstein ever writes a parenting book from inside prison, I'm sure you'll be first in line to buy a copy.
Get rid of public libraries. Problem solved.
overkill it and close the schools.
oh that's a given
My favorite solution.
+100000
Everything I need to know I learned in Atlas Shrugged. You know what no character in Atlas Shrugged does? Interact with children or read books.
"Many don’t realize Ayn Rand depicted “free-range kids” in her novel Atlas Shrugged. They don’t realize it because they haven’t read it and often believe the claim that she never depicted children."
“The recaptured sense of her own childhood kept coming back to her whenever she met the two sons of the young woman who owned the bakery shop. She often saw them wandering down the trails of the valley — two fearless beings, aged seven and four. They seemed to face life as she had faced it. They did not have the look she had seen in the children of the outer world — a look of fear, half-secretive, half-sneering, the look of a child’s defense against an adult, the look of a being in the process of discovering that he is hearing lies and of learning to feel hatred. The two boys had the open, joyous, friendly confidence of kittens who do not expect to get hurt, they had an innocently natural, non-boastful sense of their own value and as innocent a trust in any stranger’s ability to recognize it, they had the eager curiosity that would venture anywhere with the certainty that life held nothing unworthy of or closed to discovery, and they looked as if, should they encounter malevolence, they would reject it contemptuously, not as dangerous, but as stupid, they would not accept it in bruised resignation as the law of existence.
‘They represent my particular career, Miss Taggart,’ said the young mother in answer to her comment, wrapping a loaf of fresh bread and smiling at her across the counter. ‘They’re the profession I’ve chosen to practice, which, In spite of all the guff about motherhood, one can’t practice successfully in the outer world. I believe you’ve met my husband, he’s the teacher of economics who works as linesman for Dick McNamara. You know, of course, that there can be no collective commitments in this valley and that families or relatives are not allowed to come here, unless each person takes the striker’s oath by his own independent conviction. I came here, not merely for the sake of my husband’s profession, but for the sake of my own. I came here in order to bring up my sons as human beings. I would not surrender them to the educational systems devised to stunt a child’s brain, to convince him that reason is impotent, that existence is an irrational chaos with which he’s unable to deal, and thus reduce him to a state of chronic terror. You marvel at the difference between my children and those outside, Miss Taggart? Yet the cause is so simple. The cause is that here, in Galt’s Gulch, there’s no person who would not consider it monstrous ever to confront a child with the slightest suggestion of the irrational.’”
Lemme guess, Scott is portraying established events and conditionally-required attendance of such events, all on the taxpayer dime and in no way explicit to homosexuals except that it hasn't been an issue for the last 70 (or whatever) years until homosexuals brought it (back), up as 'letting'.
Gender Queer: A Memoir
In 2014, Maia Kobabe, who uses e/em/eir pronouns, thought that a comic of reading statistics would be the last autobiographical comic e would ever write. At the time, it was the only thing e felt comfortable with strangers knowing about em. Now, Gender Queer is here. Maia’s intensely cathartic autobiography charts eir journey of self-identity, which includes the mortification and confusion of adolescent crushes, grappling with how to come out to family and society, bonding with friends over erotic gay fanfiction, and facing the trauma and fundamental violation of pap smears.
What's interesting about the culture war is it almost seems as if someone might be constantly pushing the envelope, attempting to get a reaction, then going into apoplectic fits when the nominally conservative folks in flyover country react.
Again, this all seems to stem from the idea that we no longer teach children how to think, but constantly insist we teach them what to think. Are so-called secular schools are in fact becoming places for religious indoctrination, but I'm getting the sneaking feeling that indoctrination is coming from an unexpected place.
By the way, that tragicomic bio above is the most unintentionally funny thing I've read... well-- in the last few months I'd say.
The 'es and 'ems give the whole thing a very British feel, and not the Idris Elba/Benedict Cumberbatch classy kind of British accent. The Tracy Ullman British accent.
"What's interesting about the culture war is it almost seems as if someone might be constantly pushing the envelope, attempting to get a reaction,"
Yes. Exactly. It's like their stuck developmentally at about age 14-17, and are challenging their parents' authority by doing outlandish shit, and then declaring themselves victims when their parents react.
What's interesting about the culture war is it almost seems as if someone might be constantly pushing the envelope, attempting to get a reaction, then going into apoplectic fits when the nominally conservative folks in flyover country react.
Almost? AFAICT, this has been the explicit intent since the start of the movement(s). The explicit aim is to, directly or not, corrode personal responsibility and good faith understanding.
Exceedingly early in the Gay Rights debate the conservatives argued that homosexuality is a choice. The retort was that it's not a choice. So, full stop. Right there, your behavior is not a choice. After that, the movement can lie and distort it's way in millions of different nonsensical directions for any reason, good, bad, or other.
Whether they want to actively undermine democracy or laws and morals generally or whether they just want to only be responsible for the behaviors they want to be responsible for and not responsible for their own behaviors that they don't. I don't care.
Burn Twitter to the ground and see if that doesn't improve.
Since we got gay marriage, the movement seems to have been taken over by much less careful and judicious strategists. But where are they? If everyone's just reacting to things happening on Twitter, this is all a bunch of bullshit. Twitter is an addiction machine, no different to the brain than cigarettes and slot machines. It's a menace.
Sometimes companies hire people belonging to a minority group who influence company policy. Usually we just let companies do what they think is in their interest. Disney seems to be leading the charge of not going too woke too fast. We'll see how long that lasts.
It would be interesting to introduce a bunch of explicitly pro-Trump children's books in school, wait for the predictable reaction, then collapse on the fainting couch and declare "Trump voters exist!"
Pretending that the internet doesn't exist doesn't do anyone any good.
If they are checking out these books, it is either pre-teens virtue signaling to their parents/teachers or teenagers trying to piss them off. Just like the douchebags who pretended to get caught with their highlighted copies of Catcher in the Rye to get attention back in the day.
Child pornography is not available on the internet except by extraordinary means.
Not available in school libraries either, as far as I know.
Until recently.
Nope.
I'm going to admit here that I'm not sure what the answer is. But it seems everyone is embarking down a dangerous path and it's not happening organically.
This situation puts me in mind of the LGBT curriculum that the British schools introduced, only to eliminate it when it got a sharp, vocal and dramatic repudiation by the Muslim communities.
It seems we should be focused on the primary elements of education, instead of forcing these cultural elements down the throats of school districts. It doesn't make me happy that some 90% of the Muslim population in the UK believes that not only is homosexuality wrong, but should be a crime. Unfortunately, the Muslim community in the UK will only change through the slow, grinding multi-generational process of cultural assimilation into Western liberal values (which I'm instructed is racist). When you force these issues on people or populations that aren't ready for it, you just create increased division and clumsy, ugly reactions.
Wait, it's culturally affirmative to throw fags off the rooftops... But refugees are victims and you cannot question or speak loudly around victims... What's a poor progressive to blindly follow these days?
Why is it so important to the left to teach about homosexuality and pedophilia as part of the lessons in our public school systems? Have the students today learned so much about math, reading, English, and history that they need something to teach for the rest of the day?
The core problem is not the Left. The core problem is that government is running our schools. Get rid of public schools. Take your kids out and homeschool them or choose a private school.
You are not going to get rid of public schools anytime soon. The constituency that would support such a thing is very small. So we are still going to have to deal with what is going on in the government schools, where the public is ultimately in charge.
Sadly what you say is true. But the core problem still remains the government monopoly on schooling.
How do we get government out of school when Republican politicians are currently using their never-ending moral panic to dictate to teachers how and what they must teach?
It's both sides, kulturwar on both sides. Right wants to teach their morality and values and the Left want to teach their morality and values. So they agree that morality and values need to be taught, they just disagree on what that morality and value set must be.
The solution is to abandon the idea of one-size-fits-all government school system. Even if government has to pay for it, have it be direct vouchers to the parents, and then let the parents freely choose the school. CRT schools over there, Catholic schools with nuns and rulers over here.
I trust teachers to raise children more than parents.
Because you are a statist.
Why so?
Tony, always reliably an asshole.
"Teacher" is a pretty subjective term. A four year "degree' in cutting and pasting and social justice (the modern BA in Education) is such that any parent should run as fast as possible away from a "teacher"
Home school (the Ron Paul program is great..I strongly advice it. Brought both my kids up on the program and they finished in the top 2% in their SAT score. Both now in top flight engineering schools).
I'd say the left's pedophilia is a core problem
Yeah, everyone believes this fixation to be pure projection on the part of Trumpers. Those foul-mouthed cousin-fuckers do not strike one as properly socialized.
Send us more evangelical leaders who get caught fucking pool boys and politicians with underage lovers. We love it when you have to make a sacrifice to the gods.
"A bill that passed Idaho's House (51-14) Monday would eliminate the library and educational institution exception."
OK Scott, explain how treating everyone the same is a bad thing.
In other news:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/geofence-warrants-help-police-find-suspects-using-google-ruling-could-n1291098
As my mother would say, channeling millions of cultural conservatives, "But that's just not right."
Yeah? So? Whatya going to do mom, arrest them all?
"Well no, but it's just not right."
Fine, go ahead and disapprove. But don't be demanding your representatives do something about it, because a law on the matter means people get imprisoned.
She never understand that. A hell of a lot of people on both sides just don't understand that. People on the margins will go to jail when you legislate morality.
The problem isn't the school libraries, the problem is public schools themselves. Take your kids out of that system and use private schools or homeschool them.
"It's not unlike the "Don't Say Gay" bill in Florida that threatens schools with potentially costly civil prosecutions for violating vaguely defined prohibitions against discussion sexual orientation and gender identity."
Just fucking stop it. The bill is VERY clear on what is prohibited- teaching topics of gender and sexuality to students in grades K-3, and teaching sexuality in a way that's not developmemtally appropriate IAW state standards.
If you oppose the bill on some rational grounds, then oppose it. But stop lying about it, you fucking hack. And stop lying about the rest of it, too. Gays are not being stuffed back in the closet. People just don't want their kids groomed in schools.
It's surprising and kind of creepy how ardent they are about wanting to talk to five year olds about butt sex and genital removal. Crazy.
Yeah, I don't understand why it's so critical to learn this at age 5. And it's not like gay teachers don't exist, or gay people in general don't exist, or that kids would have no exposure to gays without these very specific classes. Despite Shackford's dramatic bullshit, this isn't the 80s. Gays and transgender people live out in the open and enjoy the same rights as everyone else, with the support of a majority of Americans. But somehow, not being allowed to groom 5 year olds is an outrageous violation of their rights.
Don't say that you don't understand. You do understand.
And how angry they get because some parents don't want that.
And yeah, sure, the parents (who can afford it) can go private school or home-school. But for how long? It's not hard to imagine the next stage: "private schools and homeschooling must include LGBTQWERTY instruction or else it's illegal!"
These are the same people where failing to mandate it is 'denying them access'
It's surprising and kind of creepy that the anti-LGBT people always focus on "butt sex and genital removal" as the sine qua non of queer identity. You people have some serious issues with your masculinity.
Ironically, being free to teach students about gender identity would allow teachers to emphasize that genital removal is not something all trans people go for. They'd be able to teach that trans identity is incredibly diverse and can embrace a lot of different ways to be trans.
Similarly with homosexuality. It's not all about dicks in butts.
^ perfect example.
What do you mean? You're the one who brought it up.
And they can teach thst in grades 9-12.
It may surprise you to learn that puberty starts earlier than that, your personal experience notwithstanding.
Are all books that depict heterosexual relationships also banned?
Heterosexual and homosexual relationships are not equal.
And you would like for politicians to make laws punishing people for behaving as if they were?
I’d like to see children, especially those raised in lgbt homes, to be shown examples of heterosexual relationships in child appropriate ways. Babies aren’t made by sodomists.
Reading the bill, it would seem that it prohibits classroom instruction on straight relationships and cisgender identity, as well, for students younger than the third grade. Which seems like an odd result, if we're to limit ourselves to what the bill "clearly" prohibits, right?
Come to think of it, how do you avoid teaching students about gender identity when a school has gendered restrooms?
Up until a few years ago, which school bathroom a girl or boy could go into wasn’t that confusing to 99.9% of the kids for pretty much the entire time girls and boys were allowed in the same schools.
And while I have a basic sympathy for the rights and happiness of the 0.01% that were confused, I’m not sure schools should be trying to actively increase or cater to said confusion.
One thing is for sure... Either eliminate public libraries all together or at least State Control.. The entire STATE doesn't need to all be bound by the same thought police.
If Cali-Boise wants their public library to display soft-core comic books to get their 5-year old "knights"/sons to accept the idea of old-man "king" molesting their bum-holes that's a heck of a lot better than the entire STATE requiring such garbage be at the front door.
Trying to have your cake and eat it too. LGBT+ is purely biological, yet it has to be taught to children and half the ideology doesn't even exist outside of social constructions?
You're touching on one of the great philosophical tensions. Why not engage that conversation openly instead of banning it altogether?
Yes, that should happen. Probably not in elementary schools, though.
I trust trained teachers and administrators to set the appropriate tone in their schools, not politicians whose big slogan is about fucking the president.
You trust adults to groom children 11 and under
"Grooming" is the word of the day, I guess. Are you a paid propagandist or are you just a mindless parrot?
Then you are a fool.
If you have government schools then the electorate is the ultimate boss. The teachers and administrators are there to carry out the electorate's policy.
I would rather leave kids who don't understand any better out of the conversation. It's like asking them about war, or gun rights, or really anything of substance. They tend to have stupid and uninformed opinions, the kind that one would expect from people who haven't lived for very long, experienced independence, etc.
Kids don't need teachers to learn about LGBT+.
So, can teachers talk about heterosexual marriages and stuff? Weddings, nuclear families, etc.?
Or is all that perfectly OK?
How about they talk about math, granted most teachers can't add 2 and 2
They can talk about anything that doesn't actually involve sexual intercourse or private parts.
I'd rather they teach subjects that are relevant to daily life.
And sure, if marriage comes up for whatever reason in social studies, feel free to mention that gay people get married too. Teach the kids about laws, history of LGBT+ rights, all of it. Just don't teach the ideology because we all know what happens the moment we start debating the "validity" of their arguments. Now you're a deadnaming, dehumanizing, other-ing, bigoted pariah inflicting a genocide of words and you should be drawn and quartered on national television for your beliefs that all the gender identity in the world doesn't eliminate the reality of biological sex and the behaviors associated with men and women.
I hope I've not misconstrued what you said, but just to be clear, there is no genetic basis for homosexuality.
If I wrote a children's book clearly instructing young kids on the fine art of making a bomb with common household chemicals and insisted it be shelved in the children's section would Scott defend my free speech rights?
If not, choke on a dick and die you fucking political hack of a troll. Democracy requires personal responsibility and good faith and you've got neither.
the LGBT movement
There's no such thing. The movement of Gays and Lesbian of the last few decades was about sexual liberation and freedom from traditional sex roles. The Ts are about the opposite—they endorse and wish to reimpose traditional sex roles, insisting that one's thoughts, feelings, and behavior must conform to their genitalia and outward appearance. "Transitioning" is the most extreme possible expression of sexism.
The movement of Gays and Lesbian of the last few decades was about sexual liberation and freedom from traditional sex roles.
Disagree. Since the days of Harvey Milk it's been about using socially irrelevant nonsense to undermine personal responsibility and good faith. Certainly not the case for everyone who is/was gay, but individuals making individual choices among themselves individually is not a movement.
That was unintelligible.
NOYB2 seemed to understand it.
Almost literally everyone gets up in the morning and brushes their teeth. There was no 'Toothbrushing Movement' and, even if their was, it was narrowly tailored to personal choices about oral hygiene, not enacting laws to punish people who have moral qualms against it.
No, but what was a "movement" was people getting together so that they couldn't get thrown in jail for making individual choices among themselves anymore.
I would point out that both the Democrats and the Republicans generally objected to the legalization of gay sex for a long time.
No, but what was a "movement" was people getting together so that they couldn't get thrown in jail for making individual choices among themselves anymore.
That movement started in this country in 1776 and had nothing explicitly to do with gay rights.
I would point out that both the Democrats and the Republicans generally objected to the legalization of gay sex for a long time.
I would point out that per the above and modern idiocy, this is a narrative you've been fed and gladly swallowed. How many times was Martina Navratilova arrested? Freddy Mercury? Jack Baker and Mike McConnell? Rock Hudson? Even the Stonewall
RiotsMostly Peaceful Protests contained an element of combatting organized crime and the Gay Rights facet of The Lavender Scare includes now-known homosexuals to be at the highest ranks of the scare (Roy Cohn) and requires an inherent "The Government owes people jobs indiscriminately." position to be held to support it. How many heterosexuals who were having extra-marital affairs were dismissed under the exact same premise during McCarthyism/The Lavender Scare? We (Democrats and Republicans) *still* generally run politicians out of office for extramarital affairs. Hell, Franken was run out of office for taking an exceedingly harmless vaguely heterosexual joke of a photo. Does me thinking he shouldn't have been or wrong to do so constitute a heterosexual rights movement?It's a bone of contention.
One parent was upset that her daughter encountered a library book that depicted a romance between a prince and a knight who slay a dragon together and are supported by their community.
Yes, I'm sure they wrote a fucking law because ONE WHOLE PARENT complained. I'm sure the law was written to cater exclusively to the concerns of this one woman, clearly the only woman they could find who complained about this particular book.
They scoured the earth to find the most ridiculous-sounding complaint they could and made it sound as if the law was about this one very-slightly connected thing someone said. I'm getting really fucking tired of this sort of disingenuous bullshit. Really, really tired.
The Rainbow Round Table (RRT) of the American Library Association (ALA) is dedicated to supporting the information needs of LGBTQIA+ people, from professional library workers to the population at large. Founded in 1970, it is the nation's first gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender professional organization.
But remember, we're just gonna pretend this was about one woman's complaint.
Also, teaching LBGTQ+ to K-3 students and teaching CRT to students are both myths. Ignore your eyes and ears when it comes time for you kids to attend class over Zoom, ask about their homework, or generally talk to them about school.
The article above clearly states that multiple parents spoke at the hearing.
You're clearly missing the rhetorical trick that's happening here.
Take something so unobjectionable or reasonable that almost nobody would complain about it, then they find the one person in the whole world who actually does want to complain about it. Then highlight that person and pretend like it's what the whole issue is. "They're banning any book that happens to put an LGBT twist on literary classics!"
That's clearly not what happened because this is the one single woman who thought there was issue of the Prince and the Knight being accepted and nobody else. Clearly other people have slightly different grievances. This one woman is clearly not representative of the group, so whatever happened at the actual hearing has fuck-all to do with that book.
Did you read the linked article? The “Idaho Capital Sun” isn’t some progressive propaganda pushing rag.
It figures that this crap would come from people who think the internet begins and ends at Facebook.
I am actually mildly concerned about what's being done to children with respect to their access to limitless porn, not to mention real sick shit as well as propaganda and lies.
Of course to regulate the internet, we might cut off the Republican party's endless stream of rage fuel for its moronic cultists.
I know that public libraries are more popular than might be believed, but come on. Really?
It’s really easy to avoid porn. My exposure to it hasn’t been accidental ever in my life and I’ve been using the internet since the late 90s.
Maybe, but you could easily get a whole rash of porn you didn’t intend to see once you were on a porn site (or sometimes just a dodgy sharing or download site) before decent pop-up blockers were invented.
Oh, me too! CRT and Greta Thunberg are really sick shit.
I'm putting $10 down on her starting an OnlyFans the day she turns 18 so she can keep getting that sweet mainline hit of attention.
Is she going for the evil schoolmistress pron market?
Yes, we are back to this bizarre belief that homosexuality or bisexuality is not caused by a complex set of genetic and biological factors...
Oh, so now we know what causes people to be gay? Weird, I thought no one had any idea.
In an article full of bizarre claims, the claim that we have any notion what causes 'the gay' is perhaps the most ridiculous.
A recent serious study found five genetic markers related to same-sex behavior but nothing that could be used to predict it. It turns out sexuality is, as this article states, rather complex. This study, like all of them, suffers from sampling problems, and generally science needs more data.
But this is all irrelevant because it turns out that some people end up straight and some gay (and other), it is determined quite young, and these are people with ostensibly the same rights and opportunities as everyone else.
A fundamental flaw of conservative thinking is the presumption that you automatically get to decide how other people should live. Stop that.
Remember when the conservatives decided to throw all gay people in jail???
Yeah; me neither - keep those imaginary lies a flowing....
Remember when the Nazi's decided to hand out huge stolen (tax) funding and favors to !!!-ONLY-!!! those people who pretend to be gay???
Yep; Me too...
Uh, no. That is the core belief of leftism.
Leftists are not writing laws to ban books and conversation topics.
Now that's not true Tony... Why it wasn't that long ago 13-Democratic Senators called in "favors" of banning certain media-creators from ENTIRE platforms............
Why even "write laws" when legal forces of dictation can just make phone-calls? Do I need to even mention the thousands of public speeches by Democrats in favor of media regulation because "that needs banned"????
And we're not even talking about just "child protection" from nasty-books about butt-poking here; we're talking about *ALL* people.
The *ignorance* you demonstrate to support your party-line is nothing short of cultist religion embedded in blind faith.
So is it bad or good?
It's bad Tony just like almost all the things Democrats are pushing for. And contrary to your imaginary narrative Idaho lawmakers aren't pitching the "banning" of said books only preventing public officials from pushing them onto suspecting children.
No one is doing that. Leftists, though, directly and violently attack authors, commentators and scientists who say things they don't approve of; write and enforce "speech codes" that silence conversations; pass and enforce "hate crime" laws that expose criminal defendants to unconstitutional double jeopardy; and fabricate "civil rights violations" that force business people to engage in expression they don't agree with. The also hold it as a core belief that they have the right to other people's wealth and labor. But you knew all that, and are a lying piece of shit.
Citations needed.
No, they're not. You know what I'm talking about.
I gotta agree. That "citation needed" was about a disingenuous as anything ever written here.
That's a lie.
Holy crap, is that a massive lie!
They have been working on it my whole life. They spent the 90s trying to bring back the fairness doctrine to get Rush Limbaugh off the air. That was when they were quaint and thinking small.
I remember progressives wanting to put all homosexuals into mental institutions and sterilizing them.
So, stop that.
It turns out sexuality is, as this article states, rather complex.
That's not what the article states or even implies. The article states "is not caused by a complex set of genetic and biological factors". TBI is not caused by a complex set of genetic and biological factors. It's caused simply by concussive trauma to the head. Hitting kids in the head repeatedly from an early age can and does cause TBI.
They’re gaslighting you.
That fundamental flaw extends way beyond conservatives. It certainly does exist among certain types of conservatives, but it's pretty much the left's whole reason to be.
Can we make it a crime if public schools teach anything other than reading, writing, math, and home economics(cooking, cleaning, managing budgets, basic home repair, etc)?
Why don't you just let teachers do the job they're trained for?
Why wasn't this a problem 10 years ago or 20? Do you actually let Republican politicians dictate what you care about on a daily basis? Isn't that a bit psychotic?
They always have a moral panic. It's what they have instead of economic plans. How on earth have you not caught on by now?
Why don't you just let teachers do the job they're trained for?
.... Because it's not a "choice". Just as soon as *you*(the individual) can escape paying for "Nazi Teachers" then nobody will care what Nazi-Teachers are "trained for" by the Nazi's.
Wow; see how that works... Socialism/Communism is all about dictation/tyranny and is opposite of Individual Liberty...
Course every non-brain washed person over 10 can see how the Party of Slavery is still trying to enslave everyone with their deceptive flags a flying. Sorry you slaver's lost the Civil War; deal with it.
When was the last time you read a book?
Just read "Shoe Dog"...Phil Knight's autobio. Very good, shows how hard it is to start a real company, not some woke social media company that produces nothing buy propaganda. If you are a left libertarian, read the book and you will be on your knees praising the Austrian School.
Kind funny since Phil Knight is a rabidly leftist piece of shit who proudly declared Nike to be a "Chinese company" and "Chinese brand", lobbied against a US law to prevent importing goods manufactured with slave labor, and spends 90% of his life peddling woke bullshit.
Kinda funny considering you tried to cite Atlas Shrugged earlier and stuck your own cock up your ass since you clearly never read the book.
Why don't you just let teachers do the job they're trained for?
Are you gonna let cops do the job they trained for? If not, why not?
Why aren't teachers trained to teach literacy, numeracy, history, and science, instead of being trained in social engineering and indoctrination? I would be happy to let teaches do the job they're trained for if they were actually being trained to do the job we're paying them for.
Your comments suggest that you have spent very little time in the real world recently and are making assumptions about it from within your deep internet rabbit hole and perhaps a mainline of FOX News. Why don't you stop all that for a while and reassess?
Why don't you roll all that up in little ball and shove it up your ass?
Haven't been to an urban school lately? Math is racist, most of history is racist, everything is racist. Focus on not reading or writing or math,,they are all racist. Get with the program there young fellow
Unlike you, Tony, most of don't hang out around elementary schools every day. Interestingly, you seem to be an expert in child pornography in schools. And what sort of books children read. And what sort of gay sex education they should be exposed to. And yet you are not a teacher, have no education, have no credentials, and have no reason to be hanging out around elementary school libraries. Anything you'd like to tell us? It's OK, this is a safe space, shrike has posted hardcore child pornography and is still happily embraced and allowed here by the Reason staff. It's OK, you can tell us all about how the 8 year olds really, really want it and totally consent to you sticking your microchode up their assholes.
I do hang around elementary schools several days a week. I volunteer extensively, teaching STEM related topics mostly. With lower income, largely minority kids.
And I see this stuff. Not just in the curriculum, but in the personal politics of individual teachers. There are huge pushes to get individual teachers to become activist in the class. So you will see some teachers pushing assignments that are extremely anti second amendment as a part of the reading requirement.
There are also LGBTQIA+ issues, both good and bad. There are teachers at the elementary, middle and high schools who provide a safe space for these issues with LGBTQ+ clubs. But there are also activist versions that seek to move beyond accepted into "you are a bit effeminate, you are probably trans". And "you seem to be a tomboy, you are probably trans."
That part really starts sticking in the middle school crowd, especially with the girls. Based on the reports from the students I work with, maybe half of the girls claim to have at least an interest in being a lesbian at some point in the 6th grade. This, at a time when the majority of them have no discernable sexuality yet, having not quite made it either to puberty, or far enough through it to have a fully formed identity.
There is plenty of reason for parents to be getting agitated about this stuff. Kids are vulnerable and impressionable, particularly in the middle school years.
I certainly would not want my gay son to be bombarded with virulent anti-gay messages all day. But neither would I want my straight daughter bombarded by faddish and cliquish pressures to believe that being gay or trans is the cool thing to do. I want kids to be kids, and let them have the resources they need while coming of age without anyone trying to indoctrinate them into anything that they are not.
maybe half of the girls claim to have at least an interest in being a lesbian at some point in the 6th grade.
Sexual activities between boys are also very common at that age, although unlike the girls, the boys generally just do it and don't talk about it. Few of them who engage in this actually grow up to be Gay.
Why don’t we let Christian teachers let kids read the Bible in class?
Because Christianity is a lie.
So's 97 genders, CRT and most gay "marriages" but that hasn't stopped you.
No, Christianity is a religion. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand what that means.
CRT is a religion, Climate Change is a religion..all based on faith as well.
So is gay marriage and pregnant “men”.
Teachers were trained to teach the subjects and curriculum the community decides they should teach.
Teachers were neither trained, nor hired, nor are they qualified, to determine the curriculum of educational objectives themselves.
Democrats have been dictating what we care about for a few decades. Democrats have been pushing for historical garbage like Zinn's People's History to be taught in school.
Yeah, that is pretty psychotic. Fortunately, the only person who lets Republican politicians dictate what they care about on a daily basis is you. Kinda like how you're the only person here who obsessively watches Fox News jerking your microchode to your power bottom fantasies involving Tucker Carlson. You're so fucking mentally ill you would have been dropped like a rabid dog a century ago.
Look these are children's books. Just don't check them out for your kid. As long as they are not pedo books, the left will probably win this one. Now if the librarian starts to push the books on say a young reader's club (we used to have this at my public library in the late 60's) where the librarian read a book to kids and then they could check one book out...if this occurs that is a bridge too far. Stay with Curious George please.
Nope. Sorry, you faggot pedophile, the *public* part of *public library* means the *public* gets to decide. Don't like it? Go to Barnes and Noble and buy your kiddie porn and grooming materials there.
Look these are children's books. Just don't check them out for your kid.
You realize that this is what the law has been for about 50+ yrs. and this law essentially rebuts, right?
As I said above, if I wrote a children's book explicitly depicting a prince going through the steps to make a bomb using common household ingredients to slay the dragon that lived at the abortion clinic, I would be fool to assume it would/should get shelved in the children's section. Even if I deemed and marketed it as a children's book. The content would relegate it to an upper shelf in the adult section where, if a minor wanted to read it, they would have to ask a librarian who would, in turn, have the child ask their parent to make the request. This is even true of The Bible. The children's Bibles have the explicit parts removed. It's true for the Quran or other teachings of Islam, it's true for The Motorcycle Diaries, The Turner Diaries, Mein Kampf, Maus, etc., etc., etc.
The law in question makes it explicit that any librarian who went and fetched my bomb book and handed it to a minor, without getting a parent's consent, would be legally culpable of providing explicit material to a minor. It says nothing about showing a 17 yr. old how to locate a book using the card catalog or digital search tools, walking them to the specific shelf and pointing and even saying "There's the book you're looking for right there." It's readily arguable that they can get them a stool if they can't reach it.
Bruce Skaug actually makes an interesting point. It is illegal for a librarian to hand a cigarette or alcohol to a minor. Even if the alcohol or cigarettes belonged to the minor. They aren't obligated to take it away from them, but they can't hand it to them. Moreover, the law is pretty deliberately written such that if the librarian reasonably believes the minor is an adult and/or the cigarette or materials aren't inappropriate, it may not be illegal, i.e., giving cigarettes back to a 17-yr.-old you believe to be 18 isn't illegal. Giving cigarettes back to a 7-yr.-old you believe to be 18 is.
Reason's interpretation as the law being vague is open gaslighting/trolling.
So long as government schools exist, we cannot solve the problem of what they'll preach.
But shame on Reason for grossly representing the Idaho law.
Idaho bill
Why are people so desperate to expose other peoples' kids to sexually explicit material and messaging this week?
Where was the scornful coverage of the attempts at indoctrination of small children into wildly inappropriate sexual mores?
You see, once again we have reason jumping in with full throated condemnation of the most extreme possible interpretation of the *reaction* to some pretty awful behavior.
If you want to have a credible voice, you cannot spend a few years denouncing anyone who talks about a problem as some sort of loon, and then the moment a solution begins to move without you jump up and down in shock, as if nobody could see it coming.
The place for the libertarian voice is early in the discussion, when people acting in very bad faith are attempting to push the boundaries in ways that are harmful to real people, with the exclusive intention of provoking a response.
Reason is consistently absent at the initiation of these schemes, even as true Scottsmen all over the comments are issuing the rallying cry.
The pattern is extremely consistent over a decade and a half. Being a libertarian makes these issues easy. Trying to triangulate left and right is what is making it hard.
Extremism on one side fosters extremism on the opposite side.
The truth is we should leave the kids alone. Give them time to grow up and figure things out on their own. It might surprise people how intelligent and savvy kids are without adult interfernence.
BS unless you are quoting from the Constitution of Pedeophiles United! '.....It might surprise people how intelligent and savvy SOME, not ALL, kids are without adult interference. ...' That's why adult interference, usually by the parents upon being notified their children are about to engage in an adult activity, or activity that does not comport with their morals or interpretation of some law, is always the preferred way to go. Since you can't un-ring a bell, or undo a decision, it's best to err on the side of caution and get the parents involved if at all possible.
I am all for parents raising their kids. I am talking about educators. If the LGBT group is telling the truth, it is about nature, then the numbers will never change regardless of if they educate kids or not. If it is not nature, but nurture, then it is indoctrination, wrong, and you will see number increasing. That is what we are seeing, and we are seeing it one sided. Numbers of trans are up, and especially up in young males, not so much in females, which points to indoctrination.
I was not talking about policy, but responding to Reasons idiot, provocative headline. Again chastising Republicans while supporting liberal woke policies. I have no idea how Reason writers can call themselves libertarians with their views.
First libertarians do no harm. Teaching this crap is harmful.
Second libertarians realize their rights stop where others rights begin. But also OTHERS rights stop where their rights begin. It is a parents right and duty to raise their children. It is the teachers job to each the basics of education, not to indoctrinate children.
The Idaho and Florida bills are about telling adults to leave kids alone.
Other adults, it is telling parents they should be involved.
Parental notification.
"figure it out on their own"!?
Yeah, sure, you betcha. Nothing bad with that reasoning right?
There are superior and inferior lifestyles in the real world. Not everybody gets a gold star.
We want to aspire to the superior, not the inferior. Therefore we tailor children's literary art so that it glorifies the superior, and denigrates the inferior.
The Idaho bill puts pressure on activists who want to sneak their propaganda inti the school system - which is a tactic commonly used by the Pink Mafia.
A normal outpouring of the usual bigots or at best, morons, here. Big surprise.