There Are Few Good Options in Ukraine Crisis
Western governments made promises they didn’t keep and offered assurances they can’t fulfill.

One of the challenges of setting yourself up as the world's policeman is that people may take you seriously. Then they expect you to intervene in horrendous situations that you have limited will or capability to address. That's the situation that faces the United States and NATO in Ukraine after the long-awaited invasion of the country by Russian forces.
"This morning Russia launched a new military operation against our state. This is an unjustified deceitful and cynical invasion," Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy announced as missiles struck Ukraine's cities and troops crossed its borders. "There are strikes on military and other important defense facilities, border units are under attack, the situation in the Donbas has degraded. The Armed Forces of Ukraine, all special and law enforcement agencies of the state are on alert. The National Security and Defense Council is working in an emergency mode. Martial law will be imposed."
For all of Ukraine's flaws, ranging from deep corruption to questionable elections, the country is a far more sympathetic party than the aggressor in this fight. Democratic-ish is probably the best way to characterize Ukraine's government; it's classified by The Economist's Democracy Index 2021 as a "hybrid regime" with a flawed but functioning electoral system. "Media remained pluralistic and largely free, although harassment of outlets in connection with their editorial policies, and intimidation and violence against journalists, were regularly reported," adds Amnesty International.
In contrast, Russia is bluntly characterized as an "authoritarian regime" under which "political pluralism is absent or heavily circumscribed." Amnesty International observes that hundreds of people have been fined or prosecuted under a so-called "fake news" law that lets the government punish expression it doesn't like. "Opposition activists and other dissenting voices faced severe reprisals."
At least as important, it was Russian forces that invaded Ukraine, not the other way around.
"There are few, if any, more fundamental violations of international law than seizing other nations' territory by force for the purpose of annexing it or ruling through a puppet regime," observes Russia-born George Mason University law professor Ilya Somin at the Reason-hosted Volokh Conspiracy. "The United Nations Charter specifically forbids 'the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State.' That description fits Russia's assault on Ukraine to a T."
That's the morality of the situation. Where things get complicated is that Ukraine, victim to a much more-powerful neighbor's aggression, has a decades-old claim to protection from the West under the Budapest Memorandum.
"Washington brokered with Kyiv and Moscow the terms under which Ukraine agreed to eliminate the strategic missiles, missile silos and bombers on its territory and transfer the 1,900 nuclear warheads to Russia for disassembly," the Brookings Institution's Steven Pifer noted in 2014. "A key element of the arrangement—many Ukrainians would say the key element—was the readiness of the United States and Russia, joined by Britain, to provide security assurances."
Ukraine surrendered its ability to obliterate foreign threats in return for an arrangement under which Russia, the U.S., and the United Kingdom would guarantee its independence. That's a problem when it's Russian troops against which you need protection.
Another complication is that Ukraine has applied to join NATO (though it's unlikely to be admitted). That's understandable given the multi-year threats it has faced from Russia, including the seizure of Crimea. But that feeds into Russian complaints about supposedly violated promises by western political leaders, including then-U.S. Secretary of State James Baker and German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, that the military alliance would not extend its borders eastward. Those assurances appear to have been informal, but that has long translated as "lies" to Russian officials who have seen NATO grow right to their border. After all, the credibility of assurances and formal alliances alike is found in the willingness and ability of the parties to them to live up to what they've said.
Living up to promises can have wide-ranging repercussions, far beyond the already serious fighting in Ukraine. The fact that western countries promised to defend Ukraine against a powerful and aggressive neighbor is not lost on other nations.
"The people and government of Taiwan stand with Ukraine," Lai Ching-te, vice president of Taiwan, tweeted this week. "The principle of self-determination cannot be erased by brute force."
That's a supportive sentiment from one government to another. But it can also be taken as a reminder to the United States that it has made assurances (however fuzzy) to the island nation, and that both Taiwan and its belligerent neighbor, the People's Republic of China, are watching.
If all of this seems messy, that's not a new revelation. In his first inaugural address, President Thomas Jefferson urged "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." That word "entangling" seems a perfect description of decades of treaties, alliances, promises, and assurances that have left officials in the United States, Britain, and allied NATO nations trying to figure out just how they're going to help Ukraine protect itself from whatever Russia, under the governance of a political gangster, decides to do.
Against the reality of a powerful and nuclear-armed Russian military, along with public disinterest in getting deeply involved in a potentially ruinous war (just 26 percent of Americans say the U.S. should have a major role in the conflict, according to a new poll), western governments have so far confined themselves to sanctions. That's less dangerous than troops on the ground, but it means yet more interference in private economic activity with resulting loss of liberty and prosperity.
"War and elevated national security concerns have always and everywhere promoted the growth of the state," the Cato Institute's Robert A. Levy and Peter Goettler point out. "Military intervention should only be used to counter true security threats to the nation, while restraint is critical to maintaining a free society in the United States and to avoiding reckless and costly foreign entanglements."
It's too late to undo decades of entanglements which the United States is unlikely to be able to credibly fulfill, and which may have deterred countries such as Ukraine from taking full responsibility for their own defense. But promoting freedom overseas as well as at home requires that, in the future, the U.S. government make fewer hollow promises to act as the world's policeman.
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https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/grandpa-joe-goes-to-war
Biden's speech today!
Bravo again. I like to hope you are actually getting it right, because I absolutely cannot watch that guy talk without getting all Bird Box.
It will get real when Putin shuts down the Colonial pipeline and more in reposnse to the 'profound' sanctions.
Fuck him.
"In contrast, Russia is bluntly characterized as an "authoritarian regime" under which "political pluralism is absent or heavily circumscribed." Amnesty International observes that hundreds of people have been fined or prosecuted under a so-called "fake news" law that lets the government punish expression it doesn't like. "Opposition activists and other dissenting voices faced severe reprisals."
That sounds like the US. And now, Canada.
WOLVERIIIINES!
Exclusive: Ukraine Calls On Hacker Underground To Defend Against Russia
https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-ukraine-calls-hacker-underground-defend-against-russia-2022-02-24/
And...
Ukrainian president’s last minute call for citizens to take up arms, fight the Russians: ‘You will see our faces, not our backs'
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2022/02/24/ukrainian-presidents-last-minute-call-for-citizens-to-take-up-arms-fight-the-russians-you-will-see-our-faces-not-our-backs-1205015/
Too bad they didn't let them have guns a lot earlier.
Let's hope they play catch-up very quickly on all of the Russians over there.
The Russian troops, of course, not any Russian Ukrainian protesters against their self-appointed Spokes-Tyrant:
Russians torn over Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as thousands protest
“There is no justification for war! No to war!” the comedian and TV presenter Maxim Galkin wrote on Instagram.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russians-torn-putins-invasion-ukraine-thousands-protest-rcna17542
Oh, I totally agree on "not all Russians", actually, my Russian coworker was out of the office yesterday protesting. I told him I totally understood, and sent pictures of me attending the local pre-Afghanistan protests.
Of course, slightly higher personal stakes for me these days, since approximately half of our ~30 coworkers live in Ukraine.
I could ship my Nagants "back" to them, I suppose. 😀 Though the AKs might be more real use.
It's very easy to speak generally of the importance of "defending democracy", "standing up to aggression", "shared sacrifice" etc. but now it's time to get specific. What will have to be sacrificed and who will be doing the sacrificing?
Biden couldn't even chastise Canada last week, and likely did the exact opposite.
Biden’s handlers are advising Trudeau. Trudeau referenced this on one of his public addresses last week.
Overnight news, a writer observing Bidets sanctions useless against Putins
' hard actions'.
IOW, Bidets a toothless joke which is the second reason Putin started this.
Also, history of militaey buildup in U. obviously funded by the US which logically leads to " de- militarization."
BUT....The hidden Easter Egg..
.MARK MY WORDS...
Notice Putin made mention of ' we have nukes.'
No one would drop nukes on their own advancing troops ( exc. Biden) on territory they want to control.
RUSSIA HAD NUKES OR COMPONENTS HIDDEN AT THE CHERNOBYL SITE and theyre STILL THERE.
Its been 40 years since Russias gross incompetence in reactor design caused that disaster.
The US Bechtel led projects have cocooned the reactor buildings.
Its been 40 years for the radiation in the surrounding areas to subside.
Now he wants them back. Bombs, components or SNF rods. Maybe chem weapons too?
If militants control that area, they have access a/o control of the site.
Just finding them isnt enough, special knowlege is needed to use it/ them. But its possible.
It might be worse not knowing how. Dirty bombs arent high end nuke technology.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-says-chernobyl-radiation-levels-exceeded-as-russia-confirms-its-forces-took-control-of-the-power-plant/ar-AAUhPsd
Dumb fucks at it again....
That soil was hotter than Kamalas Panties.
Guess why they put a heavy mil presence there?
Armored vehicles are also rad shielded...
Bullshit Alert:
"The catastrophe ranks as the world’s worst nuclear power plant accident."
WRONG. That misleading statement plays on the " worst nuke disaster ever, but notice its qualified.
The worst one was highly classified- the Secret City disaster. It left
" everything 75 miles down- wind dead" as a friend, now deceased told me, along with the "by the way, thats classified" statement.
They had a Secret City counterpart to our US Oak Ridge site.
Russia also had a massive submarine disaster in the early 70s. I had a friend who saw the photos of the men in rad suits laid out on the deck.
Russia gets a C in engineering....
I believe all it will take is to leak shoulder-fired anti-tank and anti-air missiles across the vast Ukrainian borders with NATO countries. What's Putin going to do, show shards of broken US missiles and claim unfair intervention?
I think Putin has made a risky bet they he can swallow the entire meal at one sitting. I think he's going to be chewing this over for years.
And I don't mean I expect Biden to do much. But Poland and the ex-USSR republics would love a chance to knock Putin down a peg or two. They fear Russia more than Biden.
No one fears Biden.
Fucking senile child molester.
If we had Trump, this wouldnt be happening.
Yes, its very telling that Obama gave away Crimea in 2014, Biden is throwing Ukraine under the bus now, but nothing of the sort happened when Trump was President.
Yeah we didnt have Four More Wars.
How wonderful.
Sadly, Democrats are warmongerers. Worse, for idealogy.
The US and NATO already sent dozens of anti-tank Javelins and other ordnance to the Ukrainian army before this thing even kicked off.
You know what the real issue here is? That Americans have gotten so used to waltzing in and slapping around non-nuclear nations in the last 40 years, that it honestly shocks them that another country might have the same capability.
It's time for the West to wake the fuck up and realize it's not 1991. Being top dog means you better have the military force to back it up, not just a bunch of nukes, especially if you're going to antagonize a former existential rival led by a guy who's essentially Stalin redux. Sanctions are fine, but they don't mean shit when Russia can simply just cooperate with China and Iran to get what they need.
Alternatively, the United States needs to wake the fuck up to the notion that "the West" isn't really a thing right now. If Germany is going to climb in bed with Russia, how can we expect them to help present a united front against them?
I recall back in the 80s when France was a bunch of antagonistic fucks. They never met an American idea that they couldn't shit on. And they never met a way to annoy America that they didn't love. They did this because the US was never going to walk away from Europe. We were so concerned about the Soviet Union, that we would put up with their ankle biting bullshit. I tend to think Germany is in the same boat. They are happy to take Russian gas because the US is always going to be there to protect them if Russia gets too frisky.
Well, it is time for the US to wake up and realize that we are merely an enabler to Europe. So long as they think we are here to support them, Europe will continue to take the easy road on anything having to do with their national security.
Back in the 80s, France was the most prestigious European nation, and their intelligentsia were a bunch of neomarxists who saw the presence of the US there as an impediment to the glorious march to a superior communist future.
Now, Germany is the top dog (the EU pretty much marches to their tune), and they're trying to avoid looking like US lapdogs for the pretty much the same reason.
Also, anyone reading even a smidgeon of Russian history, especially during the Stalin era, should be well aware of how paranoid Russian leaders can be. This is a country that reflexively acquires territorial buffers out of sheer historical habit, and the risks of acquiring countries like the Baltic states in to NATO included the perception by Russia that they were being walled off and isolated.
Russia has learned to be paranoid because they are a land empire with no natural borders. Easy for them to invade and conquer neighbors, and easy for neighbors to invade and conquer them.
This has lessened as the world became more dependent on trade than raw resources and agriculture, but Putin and Xi haven't figured that out.
No, Russia knows that Western Europe needs its oil and NG too much, well China knows we rely to much on their manufacturing. Until we realize that oil and manufacturing are national security issues, we won't be able to confront these acts of aggression.
Truth in that, Russia and the USA don't see eye to eye because they have very little common ground. The United States was firmly established by British Colonists who already had established ideas of individual rights going back to the Magna Carta in 1215. The Russians were mostly a technological backwards nation of peasants ruled by a totalitarian tzar into the 20th century. It's a small wonder Americans value individual freedoms while Russians look to the benefit of the whole. The United States has existed mostly as the top dog in the western hemisphere with oceans between her and her biggest rivals. It fought and won both major world wars coming into both late. Russia has had to fight a defensive war against both France and Germany primarily winning due to its vast expanse and the help of General Winter. It's no wonder they have no understanding of each other.
Agree with both you and Red Rocks here. On the whole, we need to stop meddling in the affairs 5000+ miles east of us, especially when our allies in that neck of the woods don't do anything. NATO is defunct and, as you said, what's the point pretending it isn't when Germany plays footsie with Russia one day and then clutches pearls at Russian invading Ukraine the next day.
When it comes to actual existential threats to the U.S. or its neighbors/close allies, Red Rocks is right that if we want to draw a line in the sand we have to back it up, otherwise Russia calls our bluff, and each time they do we look weak. Weakness is just blood in the water for them.
Weakness is just blood in the water
for them.Whether the first or last shark that bites you is Taliban, Iranian, N. Korean, or Chinese is rather immaterial once the blood hits the water.
Point taken
"The West" is as bad or worse than Russia right now. Russia at least is run by people who love their nation and want to improve their people's conditions.
Western leadership is actively trying to destroy you, your way of life, and any prospects you might have for the future.
But they're doing a great job of distracting everyone from this.
Why don’t you move to Russia then? Rather than killing everyone here who disagrees with you?
Moron.
Why am I a moron? Nardz talks about how he wants to kill people who didn’t vote for his guy all the time
I just state what's necessary to resist leftist totalitarian cancer.
How’d your boy Urban work out for the Jags? Boy you were so excited when they briefly had Tebow! For a bunch of folks who treat football like religion you sure don’t know jack shit about it!
It’s not the “leftists” fault you live in such a shithole.
Nardz is right. You faggot democrats make war on Americans. Then you expect us to do nothing.
Time for you to go. So much more peaceful if you leave of your own accord.
What makes you think I’m a democrat?
You inbreds sure are stupid. Put a cork in it country bumpkin!
"...You inbreds sure are stupid."
Nobody here gives a shit about your erotic fantasies, asshole
Cram it rummy!
Godsdamnit, is KARen in here again begging for another Missionary gangbang?
That's about as dumb as you can get. Russia is run by Putin, not multiple people, and he doesn't give a shit about the great unwashed masses except as cannon fodder and people to plunder. Crap, next you'll be claiming Hitler was all about making his people great again.
Please, tell us more about things you have no knowledge of.
I mean, you're really trying to deflect from the totalitarian bullshit here.
That's just fucking pathetic.
I give this take 3/5 stars.
The US/West are terribly dysfunctional, I'll grant you. But Russia is dysfunctional plus authoritarian and grasping for power. If Putin gave a crap about his countrymen, he wouldn't be sending them to die in droves for land they won't be able to hold long term.
Ever heard the phrase: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"?
Putin is simply using a stupid war to coalesce Russian public support around his government. Bush did the same thing for Afghanistan and doubly so with Iraq.
Now, we certainly don't to get the US involved in this war, especially with our lazy NATO allies to back us up. And yes, the problems we have in the US are a more immediate concern to us. I just dock points for promoting this idea that Putin is acting out of a love for his country.
Western
I give this take 3/5 stars.
The US/West are terribly dysfunctional, I'll grant you. But Russia is dysfunctional plus authoritarian and grasping for power. If Putin gave a crap about his countrymen, he wouldn't be sending them to die in droves for land they won't be able to hold long term.
Ever heard the phrase: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"?
Putin is simply using a stupid war to coalesce Russian public support around his government. Bush did the same thing for Afghanistan and doubly so with Iraq.
Now, we certainly don't to get the US involved in this war, especially with our lazy NATO allies to back us up. And yes, the problems we have in the US are a more immediate concern to us. I just dock points for promoting this idea that Putin is acting out of a love for his country.
I'll also stipulate, Biden has also toyed with authoritarianism. He just doesn't have the same capacity to pull it off as Russia does
We'd also best be shoveling arms into Taiwan in a scale never before imagined. Give them so many missiles et al that China will regret even looking their way.
Then keep referring to China as "West Taiwan"
Half-joke: Impose tariffs/embargoes on West Taiwan.
We couldn't survive that, just look at the supply chain crisis. We are as dependent on Chinese manufactured goods and rare earth metals, as Europe is on Russian petroleum. Possibly even more so.
Yes, the cultural and military trust fund has made the west lazy and disrepectful to the fact that it actually needs maintaining and working on to enjoy the benefits of it.
And if they want European style cradle to grave welfare, we can't maintain even the current questionable state of the military. Europe has sacrificed there security to placate their masses.
Ukraine doesn't have cradle to grave welfare and they were invaded. You seem confused,
Youre pretty bad with logic it seems. There is a difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition.
For many countries, the absence of cradle to grave welfare is likely a necessary condition to being able to defend oneself. Of course it’s never a sufficient one.
You seem confused.
Exactly. Even if it's Russia and China against the world, they've got a pretty strong team.
Hey dipshit we've already been sending them billions of dollars worth of Javelin AT missiles and various MANPADs.
The are not magic bullets and require distribution and training to be remotely effective.
TRAINING.
Goat herders and City- ites cant do that
As a Republican I applaud Putin's action in the Ukraine, and his goal of ridding that country of the Evil Liberal Fascists who had taken power there.
Viva Putin the great.
We will do the same here.
And Democrats applaud Putin's actions in Russia to immediately and arrest and punish antiwar protesters, which is what should be done with anyone who protests against (Democrat-controlled) government.
Not sure the US is in a position to do Jack-shit.
We’re a country that got whipped by the flu, and led by a president who doesn’t know his ass from his elbow. With a controlling political party that’s 100% committed to a perpetual race war at home.
We’re lucky Russia doesn’t invade us. When has the US ever had its shit less together?
Were all armed.
Red Dawn
The Russians are waiting for gun confiscation first.
The least patriotic time of my entire life. Let’s see, I’m called a deplorable, white supremacist, white nationalist, racist, nazi, populist, domestic terrorist, anti-vaccer (I’m fully vaccinated btw) insurrectionist, nimby, xenophobic, privileged, birthing person.
After Trudeau tyranny will the U.S. military shut up and obey. If woke fascism is a strategy, I’m not sure it is very motivating.
The Budapest Memorandum appeara to habe been a major blunder.
When we were all worried about the very real possibility of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of organized crime rings, it looked like a pretty good deal.
At this point isn't everyone in control of nukes an organized crime ring?
To be fair, it was an excellent deal.
The problem is that we are in the process of welshing on our side of the agreement, which is a clear declaration to every other precariously perched country in the world: "Don't surrender your nukes."
This is the death of nonproliferation.
How did you people forget 2011 already?
Denuclearization became impossible the moment Obama kicked off the Arab Spring and regime changed Qaddafi.
For all of Ukraine's flaws, ranging from deep corruption to questionable elections
Too easy.
It’s the 1930s all over again, and we learned nothing drone the last go around.
Maybe to a certain extent, but it's really doing a speed run of the 1970s more than anything else.
This is nothing like the 1930's.
Guess you need to fly to Poland and go fight with Ukraine's volunteer militias then.
By the way, the Nazis and Soviets are right here in the USSA.
And they will use this crisis as a means to further oppress the populace and increase overall misery.
Correct
"Western governments made promises they didn’t keep and offered assurances they can’t fulfill."
None of which matters because the Ukraine isn't in NATO and it isn't in the best interests of the United State to go to war over the Ukraine.
"it isn't in the best interests of the United State to go to war over the Ukraine."
This.
If it wasn't for the sizable resources there and fact that the Ukraine exports a subsantial amount of wheat and corn to europe nobody would be probably blinking an eye.
Stalin insisted that Ukraine and Belorussia be admitted to the UN as founding independent nations. So much for Putin's claim that Ukraine is a figment of Western imagination designed to undermine Russia.
Khrushchev switched Crimea from the Russian SSR to the Ukraine SSR in 1954. So much for Russia's claim to own it.
The former SSR boundaries within the USSR carried over into dissolution. Don't blame the West for the USSR's internal border definitions.
I wonder if Putin has bitten off more than he can chew. Ukraine is a lot bigger with much longer and more porous borders the the Crimean peninsula. If he had restricted his invasion to the small eastern sections, the furor might have died down in a year or two. By invading the entire country, he has made himself as much an international pariah as Hitler did by taking all of Czechoslovakia.
The Russian military is decrepit. Remember than carrier they had to tow away from Syria because its machinery broke down? The carriers they sold to India and China were even more decrepit, and had taken decades to build even as incomplete as they were. Nuclear submarines decommissioned because no one knew how to fix them. 9 BPMT (hope I got that right) on a train seems to be their entire inventory for something which has been in production for years.
Makes me wonder if this is Putin's Afghanistan. By invading the entire country, anything less than complete conquest will be seen as a failure, and those porous borders can leak more outside support than Afghanistan ever did, if NATO, Turkey, and other countries are up to it; and there's a lot of ill-will to the bully on the block.
I wonder if Putin has bitten off more than he can chew. Ukraine is a lot bigger with much longer and more porous borders the the Crimean peninsula. If he had restricted his invasion to the small eastern sections, the furor might have died down in a year or two. By invading the entire country, he has made himself as much an international pariah as Hitler did by taking all of Czechoslovakia.
Dude, we're only, what, less than 48 hours in to this thing? Putin's nowhere close to taking over all of the Ukraine, and if he really believes he can annex the whole country, it's going to backfire on him badly.
The odds are a lot greater that he'll occupy the major cities that he takes, then tell the government that they can have them back in exchange for the pro-Russia eastern provinces, total disarmament, and a promise that they'll never even think about joining NATO.
The only reason this seems like a 1936-type event than the annexations of the Crimea or that section of Georgia is that this is much larger operation and the media is shrieking, "TO ARMS! YOUR INTERESTS IN THE UKRAINE ARE THREATENED!"
Red, I'd love to hear the MSM/MDM tell the American people just what exactly they think our interests are in Ukraine. I don't see a vital US national interest there.
The US isn't in Ukraine. It's joining the rest of the democratic world in punishing Russia for starting a war of choice for insane reasons. Should we not do that?
Russia doesn't want more and more pro-Western governments on its doorstep. It certainly doesn't want NATO right next door. I don't think those reasons are "insane".
And you're gullible if you think "we are punishing Russia". The West is doing nothing meaningful because we can't. The possibility of punishing Russia vanished when Germany decided to become dependent on Russian energy.
I dunno. I think that if you believe that we shouldn't impose tariffs on a genocidal dictatorship like China, you should be consistent in rejecting sanctions against Russia as well. After all, both are an interference in the ability of people to trade across international borders.
Or, tell me, in what way are Russia's actions worse than China's?
Because Europe depends on Russian oil, we depend on Chinese manufacturing and rare earth metals (despite having huge deposits domestically and in Canada that we haven't developed).
Globalization, especially off shoring anything the greenies don't like, has completely eroded the west's national security.
Truth.
Both of those are easily fixable. Europe can undo its "green energy" stupidity, and we can rebuild our manufacturing capacity within a decade and not need China at all anymore. And those are the right policies.
A lot of this is your fault Tony.
Yeah, because the first round of punishment worked so well. Sanctions aren't shit. Europe needs Russian oil, the sanctions will quietly disappear.
"The odds are a lot greater that he'll occupy the major cities that he takes, then tell the government that they can have them back in exchange for the pro-Russia eastern provinces, total disarmament, and a promise that they'll never even think about joining NATO."
Already did a couple hours ago.
He wants Ukraine turned into a confederacy of mini states with no real central authority.
A bunch of weak puppets he can play off each other.
Makes sense, and is pretty much traditional for the area.
Let him find out.
It's not our business or our responsibility.
Nothing in Assghanistan.
Ukraine = energy money one way or the other.
A military runs on OIL.
Hey! That's an insult to the goat fuckers that inhabit Afghanistan.
The point being that it was convenient at the time and Stalin, nor Khrushchev considered a dissolution of the U.S.S.R. as they had complete confidence in the ideology of Communism. The motivations for both are pretty obvious at the time. The USA played the same games during the cold war...why else were authoritarian dictators provided weapons and allied with them.
There is an excellent option in the Ukraine: walk away.
It's not our business. It's not our responsibility. And just because some self-aggrandizing politicians in the US made "promises" doesn't mean anybody is bound by them.
This.
What is going on is a European issue and it's time the Euros grew up and didn't rely on daddy to fight their battles.
When was the last time Europe actually did that? Maybe the Crimean War? Incidentally that was the last time western Europe teamed up to fight the Russians.
But at the time of the Crimean war Tsar Nicholas didn't have nukes...
Well, Europe will either grow up and fix their own problems or they won't.
If they won't, they'll become a Russian/Chinese client state, and they deserve it.
It's not our problem.
Unfortunately it will evolve into one. Regardless, our priority should be our number one enemy, democrats within the US. Who are a thousand times more dangerous than Putin.
Tuccille....let's start with the basics, which you did not. Sigh.
Ukraine is not a NATO member. Nor is there a treaty, ratified by the US Senate, that makes them an ally and legally commits us. We have zero obligation to defend them. None.
There is no US vital national interest at stake in Ukraine.
The best option (to me)? Sell the Ukrainians every weapon they can carry (cash or gold only), and relentlessly fight the Russians down to the last Ukrainian. Taking out ~10% to ~15% of Russian tanks and jets in Europe would be a good start, and degrade Russia's capacity to venture much beyond Ukraine.
At this point they need to learn how to make and deploy IEDs. No help is coming from the outside.
Umm, you realize that was one of our main gripes w/Suleimani?
WTF is wrong with you?
You honestly think our "main gripe" with Suleimani was his choice of weaponry and not who he used them on?
Stupid arguments do not commend any of your others.
Right, and UA is advocating we provide training for Ukrainians to use them on Russians.
It's pretty much the exact same thing that was at least a talking point for why Suleimani was so bad.
If Ukrainians spark up an insurgency and use IEDs to take our Russian soldiers, that's their business.
I wouldn't want the US to provide materiel or training for it though.
No, I said they should learn it. I didn't say we should send over advisors to teach them. They'd be better off contacting the Taliban anyway.
My bad. I read something into your comment that wasn't there. Apologies.
Brain scrambles happen.
*grin*
It's nice to see people behaving in a civilized manner on the internet. It's so rare. 😀
No US interest.
A BIDEN INTEREST.
Him and his coke head son have their fingers in a pie there.
Yeah well, that is an entirely different matter (Hunter, Big Guy, James Biden). What you're saying is true = The Biden's do have personal financial involvement with Russia, China, and Ukraine.
History and forensic journalism will need to deliver the final verdict on the Biden's. Our court system never will.
Hence a push towards International Court which will finish Screwing the Pooch.
It's a pretty good series of connections and a coincidence or two. Enough to make an op for literal Nazis like Steve Bannon to peddle, but once you study everything, you realize that it's a nothingburger, just like Hillary's emails before it.
As vice president, Biden was in a lot of countries. Once, he was in Ukraine, where his son worked. That's pretty much the extent of the malfeasance.
Tony, I was born at night, not last night.
The Biden's are corrupt AF and the documentation is there. Hunter was the front man for influence peddling, Washington DC style.
You’re such a fucking shill. A retarded one of you actually believe the the progtard pablum you’re puking.
Do you think Putin or anybody else cares about such drivel?
Putin is attacking Ukraine because he can. And he can because the West adopted policies that made it impossible to stop him, and because US and European voters increasingly don't give a f*ck. Nor should they.
Another vacuous fence-straddling "few good options" article by Reason. Fuck Putin.
Another pile of shit post from the lefty asshole.
Fuck off and die.
Not my own ideas, but elsewhere I've seen suggested:
Block Russian ships passing through the Dardanelles, making the Black Sea a Russian lake;
Send all Russian students home from U.S. universities;
Block all Russian banks from doing business outside Russia;
Shut off all Russian/Ukrainian pipelines to Europe;
Send all Russian embassy staff out of the U.S.;
Stop all U.S. commerce in Russian products of all kinds;
Then get imaginative and put a real financial hurt on everything Russian.
"Block Russian ships passing through the Dardanelles...
...Block all Russian banks from doing business outside Russia"
Acts of war that would be used as justification for further expansion into the former eastern bloc states.
Half measures are not going to accomplish anything. I'm not ready to advocate for war but I will say that it's time for the USA/NATO to make clear lines in the sand.
Why?
What do the American people get out of that?
"What do the American people get out of that?"
A limit to this mess.
Do you think Putin is going to stop at Ukraine? Or the Baltic States?
Tell me right now, where does he draw his line?
The only line Biden will make is running and pissing himself.
Dont believe for a moment Asshole the Groper is going to do anything except run away and hide his involvement in Ukraine.
Are you going to enlist immediately?
If not, shut up.
That might hurt the Russian people but its going to do little to dissuade Putin as his motivation is purely national defense and ideological related. Putin was KGB during the Cold War, I'm pretty sure he's not concerned with western conveniences and putting them above national defense a sign of being soft.
"But promoting freedom overseas as well as at home requires that, in the future, the U.S. government make fewer hollow promises to act as the world's policeman."
Lots of great points in the piece, but this conclusion non sequitur. Seems to be a bit of wishful thinking, having your cake and eating it too. Bad to make hollow promises, but I don't particularly see that you've proven the point that fewer hollow promises would have promoted freedom in anyway. Concentrating on backable promises perhaps, but just fewer promises would do little.
Things will get spicy when Russia starts to form a land corridor to Kaliningrad.
"authoritarian regime" under which "political pluralism is absent or heavily circumscribed."
Sounds a lot like what the democrats are doing to America
But those few options are sooooo lucrative.
Aren’t they Hunter?
As a Republican I applaud Putin's action in the Ukraine, and his goal of ridding that country of the Evil Liberal Fascists who had taken power there.
Viva Putin the great.
We will do the same here.
Whose sock puppet are you?
Leftists hate themselves too much to do decent parody or satire.
No ones.
Thats an old Troll User name from Disqus back during Obama
When your worldview and political reflections are so hollow and inconsistent that you are forever stuck in a superposition between being a troll and a parody: That's VendRetard for you.
Fuck off, Revanchist Commie! You and Lauren "Witchie" Witzke both!
Nothing But Praise For Putin
https://youtu.be/Lau_V2_Wl80
Commies to the Left of Me, Christers to the Right!
Here I am!
Ducking a two-way hit-squad!
Those "hollow points" (promises, written agreements) were lies made to get immediate advantages for NATO. They were broken immediately after the Russians had kept their word, did their part.
Putin the dictator was provoked and is being used to as a distraction to divert attention away from the economic ruin caused by Western powers by their coercive, dictatorial mandates and monetary policies. We the people are victims of our own making. We trusted politicians/bureaucrats/LEOs to rule us so we would be protected. We got exploited. Now, TPTB are trying to avoid blowback from us. Will we fall for it again? Or, will we stop giving others our permission to be ruled?
...and Bidens meddling ( nation building) in Ukraine...
Note how quiet the Bidet Admin and his Lap Dig Media have been on this " full scale war"...
which isnt.
One plane flying over and some rockets? That happens in Israel regularly...
As the MSM are pathological liars, Id say theyre running cover for Joe and Co.
"One plane flying over and some rockets?"
I've read that Russians captured the airport of Kiev, Ukraine's capital.
Ribbentrop the Christian Socialist and Molotov the altruist signed a pact guaranteeing lasting non-aggression between National Socialist Germany and International Socialist Russia. Look how well that solemn treaty has aged since 1939.
Karens and Soy boys protesting outside the Embassy.
Yeah THATS going to do anything.
Rockets fall on peoples homes and these self absorbed Virtue signallers think theyre Making a Difference?
Assholes.
This is about Chernobyl.
What did Russia have hidden there?
They waited till We cocooned it and the radiation subsided now they want it back.
C. is a dirty bomb paradise.
Chernobyl is still the world's most radio-active region and its exclusion zone has been expanded over the years.
https://twitter.com/terrelljstarr/status/1496932367298174982?t=vaqyodzkTTtiQyLp9RQuvA&s=19
What makes my writing on this very difficult is the sheer racism in Putin's language towards Ukrainians. They way Putin talks about Ukrainians is very similar to white racists' language towards Black folks.
This is not geopolitics or NATO. This is pure hatred.
Calling Ukrainians Nazis is akin to calling Black people a racial slur. Yes, it is THAT similar.
Chicago is a dog whistle for racist politicians who want to complain about crime. Ukraine is Putin's Chicago.
Liar.
Chicago IS a cesspool of crime and youre desperate to deny it.
"Calling Ukrainians Nazis is akin to calling Black people a racial slur. Yes, it is THAT similar."
The churches were once again opened to worship and Communist functionaries, even non Jewish ones, were disposed of during Nazi occupation.
I see that someone has drunk deeply of the Kool-AIDS.
https://twitter.com/Laurie_Garrett/status/1496880140319604736?t=eoNvpQpEk3esWKIvD8OnRg&s=19
It's been suggested that #Putin isn't thinking properly, perhaps due to long #COVID19 . No proof, of course. In Sept. he went into quarantine after COVID cases emerged in his inner circle.
[Link]
PBS:
" US sanctions will deprive Russia of supplies they need to carry out this attack."
Non Communist - sympathizing PBS rewrite:
" The Commies in the US initially gave Russia what they needed to invade Ukraine."
Next up- PBS supports abortion and trans gender children.
All we want is God to intervene....we want peace
Don't bet on it, Pascal. God does not exist, M'Lady. Any peace we humans have, we have to fight for it and make it.
*Tips Poker dealer's visor. while whistling "The Gambler"*
https://youtu.be/7hx4gdlfamo
God will see us through...amen
https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1496990091486457860?t=y20BY7niwm9xBXmLLfh5mg&s=19
Game time! Comment which one you think is the worst take! This should be fun
[Link]
I'd say Señorita Awesome's post is the worst.
Pretty sure all Ukrainians at this moment want to identify as "Alive" and "Free", without a binary.
Yeah, but it was a surprisingly hard choice to make. B. was pretty fucking obnoxious as well, though I suppose it does at least fulfill your point about wanting to identify as "alive".
Ukraine gave up their nukes for the promise of sovereignty. The fate of the unarmed was sealed that day.
It's a pretty good argument against gun control here.
True. Richard Nixon sold out our Second Amendment protection against incoming Russian nukes the year the LP first competed in elections. That traitor is gone, his treason gone with him. The Second Amendment is happily restored and Russia's looters now invade Ukraine instead. There is a lesson in this for the LP Platform Committee.
Gonna be a long list of countries seeking to go nuclear in the very near future.
Watching the news reports, I'm seeing plenty of military-age Ukranians (ladies you wanted equality so pick up a rifle!) rolling their luggage in a generally western direction.
If they are not interested in defending themselves, why should I be interested?
Until that stops, I got no time for anyone advocating sending these snowflakes one red cent for armaments, let alone sending a single American soldier.
Tuccille is right again. Two criminal gangs are scuffling. Both send men with guns to kick in doors, shoot and rob THEIR OWN CITIZENS over such personal trivia as plant leaves. Suddenly they get the chance to treat foreigners the same way (chorus of gasps!). The dupes who elected these goons and quails who shrank from opposing them feel the initiation of force and reprisal. Switzerland and These 2A States will, hopefully, learn to be less like either bloody gang.
You know, it's not just the Reason staff who have forgotten their libertarianism; I'm not seeing any from the commentariat today, either. You really want to make excuses for Ukrainian duplicity, and spend taxpayer monies arming Taiwan for another losing fight? Seriously?
Hard to believe that we almost went to war when the Soviet Union militarized Cuba by putting in nuclear missiles.
We forced them to respect our sphere of influence, but apparently don't want to extend that to any other country.
The American Progressive Military Complex has been setting this nonsense up for the last 6-yrs. Why be that? Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries on the planet. The Military Complex is and has been one the most corrupt organizations EVER! Yet so many of u clowns still jamb to the over repeated song and dance they've been blasting for decades. Who besides these bastards gives two shits about corrupt Ukraine? So again... Why? Think people..., THINK.
The Phucko Knows
Russia is no less an imperial power than the United States
No, Russia hasn't been on the level of the US as an imperial power for 30 years (China is honestly a lot closer to that level than Russia). HOWEVER, they ARE a near-peer regional power, with capabilities in some gray zone warfare areas such as cyber that meet or exceed ours.
What Putin has been doing for the last decade-plus is try to restore the old Russian imperial empire by biting off chunks of the adjacent non-NATO countries. Note that our relations with Russia, while never really trustworthy even when Yeltsin was drunkenly roaming about, didn't totally go south until the Obama administration sponsored a color revolution against the Russian-allied government in Ukraine. Imagine Russia creating a military alliance in Central America and South America, and then overthrowing the Mexican government to put an allied government in place that's preferable to their interests, and you'll get the idea of why Putin is doing this.
Agreed. It certainly doesn’t help with the timing realization of the fascist/commie to the North, and journalists being murdered by the commies to the south. Bad fucking optics and timing .
Note that our relations with Russia...until the Obama administration sponsored a color revolution against the Russian-allied government in Ukraine.
That was only during the Obama years. Our relations with Russia went south when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, before Obama's Reset Button Reset our relations for a couple of years.
I'm sorry, are you incorrectly describing the 2004 Orange Revolution, or incorrectly describing the 2014 Euromaidan?
You have a point as Russia was mostly stripped of its imperialism and sphere of influence at the end of the cold war. However, Russia retained its sizable defensive forces that even though mostly dated are reliable and better suited for the Russian terrain and climate (it's a complete mudhole outside of summer and winter and even then, you have General Winter to deal with). In addition, Nukes are the great equalizer in all this.
Oh yeah, and there was also the whole Estonia thing that started around that time, too.
If Obama was serious about Russia, he should have gotten tough on Russia after 2008, instead of the reset button. It was the West's limp-wristed response, together with the idiotic anti-nuclear and anti-carbon policies in Europe, that made Ukraine possible.
People have made their bed and now they need to lie in it. Germany needs to accept that Russia can tell it what to do because Germany is energy dependent on Russia. And the US should stop meddling in that region altogether and get out of NATO, because being in a mutual defense pact with a bunch of incompetent imbeciles is suicidal.
How many Iraqi provinces did we annex?
That's because most of Western Civilization was rendered dumb by several decades worth of the false equivalency of Fascism = Farthest Right/Communism = Farthest Left that came out after World War II.
Since Putin isn't invading Ukraine to shed the last drop of Russian blood to raise the rainbow flag above Kiev, people think he's on far-right side of the spectrum.
Even if he doesn't stop at Ukraine, it's not our business.
In fact, Germany is likely going to become a Russian client state because of Germany's idiotic energy policy, and that's also OK.
The US should leave NATO and let chips fall where they may.
Putin will also quickly discover that taking over nations comes at a huge cost.
Possible but there's very limited point in pushing into the Baltic countries, they are relatively small and could be overwhelmed rather quickly. Ukraine has more strategic value, until Russia took Crimea they had no naval access to the Black Sea from the Sea of Azov. And even then there was no land route from the Crimea to Russia until now.
China is prepared to deliver the left hook that the west is not paying attention to.
Not only that, Germany is primarily responsible for Putin's Ukraine invasion. Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if Germany weren't so energy dependent on Russia.
Either way, the West had no business messing around in Ukraine, either in 2004 or in 2014, and it did so in both cases.
Uh, the Euromaiden is what kicked all this off, goofy.
NOYB2, I am not so sure ditching NATO is wise. The NATO structure has worked in the sense that we don't have another all-consuming European land war that we have to get involved in. We don't want that.
But insisting that Europe take more of the load and do the heavy lifting in their own fucking backyard...hell yeah. They should.
As a Republican I applaud Putin's action in the Ukraine, and his goal of ridding that country of the Evil Liberal Fascists who had taken power there.
Viva Putin the great.
We will do the same here.
You're probably right about this (sadly). Sadder still that millions will believe it.
And I'd have told putin it's all defensive and none of it will move unless you attack Ukraine. If you attack well defend Ukrainian sovereignty with the full force of nato
Dude, why? We have no formal protective alliance with Ukraine, and no, a handshake agreement that Billy Jeff made in 1994 to convince them to give up their nukes doesn't count. They are not a NATO member, just a country with an administration that we helped install in 2014. There isn't shit we or NATO can really do other than provide military equipment. Hell, we don't even have the legal justification for doing so that Great Britain did, when it signed its mutual support pact with Poland prior to the German invasion.
Great way to get nuked.
None of what you propose benefits the American people in any way.
"But maybe that's the price we have to pay to stop communism and authoritarianism now. At some point communists need to be killed."
The communists aren't in Russia, they're in the WEF and the American/Western left.
yeah, that wouldn't escalate things at all
They did pull Russia from SWIFT, now the Russian oligarchs are unhappy with Putin,..according to the Guardian. Which oligarchs will win?
TRUMP. would have.
Syria said " fuck you."
Trump said, "no, fuck YOU" and blew their airport up.
First of all, the Russian military was designed to fight the exact war you are describing. They are a defensive force that fights in depth. The United States is a projecting force that uses its allies to soften the brunt of its push and its technology to get an advantage. This is probably the worst case scenario and who every is on the losing end of a prolonged blood bath like this would probably be tempted to push the little red button because they have nothing left to lose.
"Weeks ago I would've stationed at least 50k nato/allied forces in Poland, along with full compliments of armored and air divisions. I'd have move aircraft carriers to the region. And I'd have a drone tailing every known Russian ship or submarine were aware of around the globe 24/7 (or as close to it as possible) since then."
All that costs money and effort. Did you learn nothing from the US losing to a militia of part time goat herders in Afghanistan?
You youngsters!
The same arguments were made about Korea and Vietnam.
Look how that worked out.
NATO worked for a few decades. Now, NATO itself is a destabilizing force. That's because under NATO, not only can countries like Germany avoid the pain of paying for their own military, they can make increasingly irresponsible political decisions under the assumption that the US is there as a military of last resort.
Ukraine wouldn't have happened if Germany hadn't made the idiotic decision to become energy dependent on Russia. But the West can't even impose serious financial sanctions on Russia because Germans would freeze.
This needs to stop. Germany and other nations are only going to take care of their own backyard if they have no other choice, and that means NATO needs to end. More importantly, Germany will think twice before adopting idiotic energy policies.
Leaving NATO doesn't mean we can't help Europeans, it means we can decide on a case-by-case basis. Leaving NATO also would mean withdrawing troops from Europe, which would be a good thing for the US.
Trump was excoriated for saying that. Which goes to the key point. The greatest enemy of America isn’t China, or Russia. It’s the democrat party.
We didn't *have* to get involved in the first one!
Have teanagers compeat in a win or die competition where the one teen left alive gets to rule all others, or something like that?
I just fucking hate communists and want them dead for their present and historical abuses. And this is a good excuse to start killing them. I'm certainly hawkish here, I know.
Then you ought to start in western academia, because that's where the vast majority of them reside these days, and they've made it quite clear that their ultimate goal is to twerk on the ruins of western civilization.
"I just fucking hate communists and want them dead for their present and historical abuses. And this is a good excuse to start killing them"
Cool.
Get to work where they actually are then: here.
Putin and Russia aren't our enemy.
Leftists and their globalist masters are.
May I suggest we give this one a little more time? As you say, the NATO structure did work for decades.
I cannot argue your points about Germany...you're right. I agree.
I'd be open to pulling out our troops, and leaving the equipment behind, if Germany and the EU can't get their collective act together. They are in collective shock right now. They need to quickly awaken to the new 'bearish' reality.
General Mattis was right when he said that it cannot be that we love our children any less than the Europeans love their own children. If Europeans are unwilling to deal with the Russian bear rummaging through their own backyard, then I would be much more open to saying, "Peace out".
If we're worried about the Poland and the Baltics "falling to Russia", the fact that Poland+Lithuania+Estonia+Latvia+Romania don't have the combined forces necessary to defend themselves only proves that there are no positives, just negatives, to a binding alliance with them.
Are they key allies, or an unjustifiable vulnerability that could bring us to ruin?
I'd like to see some talking heads and officials answer this, because both can't be true.
No.
Fuck NATO.
No blood for the enrichment of globalist totalitarian elites.
Yes, and it also has not worked for a couple of decades now.
What do you expect to change? The situation in Europe is deteriorating. Whatever problems with have with NATO now, they are just going to get worse.
"I'd be open to pulling out our troops, and leaving the equipment behind"
Pointless if nobody qualified to employ them is available.
NATO is Davos muscle, that is all.
We didn't annex Iraq.
why I will never figure out
I was still a little baffled before, but after after the Taliban liberated Kabul from a regime that tears down statues, forces women to cover their faces, and mutilates childrens' genitals, I can see how low information individuals from a different culture would be convinced.
Get to work where they
actuallymost critically are then: here.No point in toppling Castro or Putin if you leave the castle unguarded with the keys in it.
Yes, and it also has not worked for a couple of decades now.
And when it was rather cogently pointed out that we're paying more than our fair share of the check and others should be paying in, the speaker was denounced to cries of 'Muh NATO!' and 'He's a Russian Asset!'.
"Just a little more time" sounds very #USNATOBREXIT
That's just silly.
Putin is the Global World Order's enemy. These are the communists currently waging war on us.
The globalists/leftists are my enemy.
W/o Putin, what stands in their way?
We sure as hell haven't.
thoudand.
Chernobyl on now.
THATS whats this is about.
My nuke friend suggests Russia had " stuff" stored there.
I think disproportional contributions are not even NATO’s major problem. The existence of NATO as a US guarantee to fix whatever pickle stupid Europeans get themselves into is the core problem.
And jets not kid ourselves: NATO was created mainly as an excuse to station Americans in Europe and occupy Germany.
No, not quite like that (May I suggest we give this one a little more time? = #USNATOBREXIT). But I think the smart move here is to contain Russia via reinforcement to NATO allies, and then proceed to get Russia bogged down in a low to medium intensity Ukrainian conflict (replete with a small, steady stream of body bags going east to Moscow).
Then diplomatically head for the exits and let the Europeans clean up their own backyard. We can't leave our allies hanging, ever. But we can reduce our cost by bringing troops home, or redeploying them elsewhere where they will be urgently needed. Which brings me to my next point.
We are shortly going to have another conflict in Taiwan. When? Certainly before 2027. The outcome of that conflict is uncertain. It is possible that US forces in the Pacific are utterly defeated in a kinetic defense of Taiwan. I don't know that we Americans have ever truly dealt with defeat. At least, not since 1812...some 200 years ago. We must mentally prepare ourselves for that possibility, and the aftermath.
The bottom line on NATO is that we are allies by treaty; ratified by the US Senate. Abrogation of a treaty is no small matter. Before undertaking that grave a step, we should give it some time, and talk about our concerns privately to our allies.
We need to start with the democrats. Once they’re out of the way, then we can finally set to task on getting rid of the RINO’s.
It doesn’t help that Gerhard Schroeder, ex Fuehrer of Germany, is working for Russian petroleum interests.
If Americans don’t muster the will to get rid of the democrats then we’re doomed.
I really hope you meet a horrific end.
@VendicarD, that is the kind of delusional fantasy world progressives and leftists like you live in.
"But I think the smart move here is to contain Russia via reinforcement to NATO allies, and then proceed to get Russia bogged down in a low to medium intensity Ukrainian conflict (replete with a small, steady stream of body bags going east to Moscow)."
How does that benefit Americans?
And why do we care about "containing Russia"? Russia isn't like the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany; Russia doesn't have an ideology or world domination as its objective.
And what "concerns" would that be? My point is: there is nothing we want from Germany or other NATO members. There is no way in which they can change their behavior that makes staying in NATO any more attractive to the US.
The problem with NATO isn't the behavior of other members (imbecilic as it has been), the problem is that NATO serves no purpose anymore.
Try to articulate in what possible way NATO is of benefit to the American people at this point.
NOYB2, I absolutely agree with you, but think there may be some benefit to withdrawing to a plan, rather than sporadically and in spurts and all ad hoc, mostly as a way to preserve some measure of stability. Primarily because I'd rather not joggle anyone's elbow while they're holding the launch button for a bunch of ICBMs.
It benefits Americans significantly to not have the wrold explode because we decided to drop out of NATO overnight with no warning. The US leaving NATO will create a power vacuum. Implosions can be as destructive as explosions, so let's try and rate limit the speed at which that vacuum forms and refills.
Like, set a hard hard date. Jan 1, 2025. Make sure everyone knows it. Meet it. Make steady progress towards meeting it the whole time so everyone sees that we're really serious about it and adjusts. But I'd strongly prefer that adjustment to be deliberate instead of a panicked infilling as we pull out.
And I just pulled that date out of my ass. Maybe it's too far out. Whether you agree or not, I presume you get the point I'm trying to make, anyway.
"Nobody make any sudden moves," as they say in the movies.
*shrug* I dunno. Maybe I'm being excessively cautious.
Try to articulate in what possible way NATO is of benefit to the American people at this point.
You ask a fair question. I shall answer.
One, there are tens of thousands of American citizens who live in Europe. Right there, is sufficient justification (assisting Europe to keep the peace on the continent, if anything, to keep our own citizens out of harms way) to station troops in the vicinity.
Two, protection of American trade. The US does considerable trade with the EU. It is in our economic interest to help 'protect' our trade partners.
Three, in the national security realm, why transform allies by formal treaty into neutral bystanders? That logic I do not understand. You cannot have enough allies in a multi-polar world.
Look, NOYB2 (and Nardz, et al)....I get where you are coming from, in many aspects your arguments are correct (and I agree with them). It is your conclusion (therefore, we must abrogate our treaties and pull out) where I am a lot less confident (and cautious).
So your principle is that wherever there are US citizens on foreign soil, the US can/should station the US military to protect them? That is not how international law works. If you move to a foreign country, you make the choice to be under its jurisdiction and protection.
I see little reason to believe that trade with the EU is a net positive for the US. In fact, US-European trade deals have been quite one sided and entered into in bad faith by Europeans.
Europeans are contributing nothing useful to the defense of America. On the other hands, Europeans keep making political and economic decisions that risk dragging the US into wars that the US has no interest in. That makes Europeans a net risk and cost as allies.
What is happening now in Ukraine was entirely predictable. I warned about it when Germans started building their energy policy around Russia two decades ago. But Germans didn't care: they didn't think Russia was their enemy and furthermore, they thought that NATO would protect them. You also have to realize that European politicians hate America with a passion. These are not good allies.
Ending NATO doesn't mean that one can never cooperate, it simply means that there is no formal obligation to do so.
Well, I'm not suggesting that. I think a timeline, as you propose, is good. But countries like Germany need to know that starting in half a dozen years, they're on their own and they need to start building up their own military now.
And the path that we're on isn't leading to anything good either. Germany is strongly dependent on Russia right now in several ways, and Germany is making deals with China. So we're now in a defense pact with a country that is friendly with our enemies. That is a bad situation.
Reinvade Afghanistan just to show 'em.
We should be disentangling our economy from both these countries. It won’t happen.
Look, I'm not the one who made a post that conflated the Obama-era Euromaidan with the Bush-era "color revolutions" in the former USSR (Georgia 2003, Ukraine 2004, Kyrgyzstan 2005), you are. If the best you can do when making a post is a garbled repetition of other peoples' talking points in a manner that demonstrates you didn't comprehend them, you really should expect to be called on it.
"Human Shield" may in fact be his best possible use at this point.
German politics has been corrupted even more by the green energy lobby than US politics. Companies and politicians are making out like bandits while average Germans are seeing their future and their basic rights (such as they are) destroyed.
Doubtful. Its been 35 years and the site has been scrubbed by hundreds of workers.
More likely is the Russians have occupied the site to use it as a bargaining chip later. Europe is scared shitless of a little radioactive fallout.
False.
Scrubbed on the surface.
The plant is still too hot to enter.
Its real easy to hide nuke materials underground and the background radiation would conceal it. Pu wouldnt show up at all, its a weak Alpha emitter.
NO ONE on the cocoon project will go digging up dirt to see what they can find. Its far too dangerous.
And lives. The warfare of conquest isn't one of massive bombing, drones or nuclear strikes. It's one of attrition.
We've learned nothing in the last sixty years.
“Did you learn nothing from the US losing to a militia of part time goat herders in Afghanistan?”
What libtards can learn from this is that the 2nd Amendment is indeed a very effective tool to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government (even if the military would not split or opt to join the people instead of tyrants)
It's the same playbook, moron.