Don't Exaggerate What's at Stake in Ukraine
The "liberal world order" doesn't require a war with Russia over the Donbass.
Russia has amassed more than 100,000 troops on the Ukrainian border, though it claims it doesn't intend to invade. The U.S. is sending weapons, layering on sanctions, and placing 8,500 troops on "high alert" for possible deployment to Eastern Europe. And last week President Joe Biden, facing criticism for his "weak" stance on the conflict, drew a line in the sand: "If any assembled Russian units move across the Ukrainian border, that is an invasion. Let there be no doubt if [Russian President Vladimir] Putin makes this choice, Russia will pay a heavy price."
With a little less hubris and a little more realism, the escalation of the Ukraine affair could've at least been mitigated. But the foreign policy establishment seems to have forgotten how to do a cost-benefit analysis. The risks of this conflict simply outweigh Ukraine's importance to U.S. foreign policy.
Sen. Chris Coons (D–Del.) wants "the sorts of sanctions that we use to bring Iran to the table." But Russia controls a significant portion of global energy markets—nearly 40 percent of Europe's gas imports—so permitting Iran-like measures against it would have disastrous effects. Economic sanctions on Russia were futile in 2014 when it invaded Crimea, and there's no reason to believe that they would provide a deterrent effect now. More often than not, U.S. sanctions hurt American economic interests without changing the target's behavior in the slightest.
Meanwhile, American military aid worth more than $200 million has reached Ukraine. This weapons dump has been justified a few different ways, ranging from the idea that it will change Putin's mind to the notion that it will give the Ukrainian military a real chance against potential invaders. In 2021, the U.S. sent $650 million worth of weapons and military equipment to Ukraine—the most since 2014—and it clearly didn't deter Putin from surrounding Ukraine on three fronts. It's hard to believe that sending even more equipment into Ukraine will do the trick.
Defending Ukraine has never been about Ukraine, Michael Brendan Dougherty argues in National Review, but about defending "liberal world order." The chief argument of the Russia hawks, like former President of the World Peace Foundation Robert Rotberg, is that failing to protect Ukraine from Russia would mean the U.S. is dishonoring those who fought in World War II. That the U.S. would be putting its hard-earned "superpower" status at risk. This is an exaggeration of disastrous magnitude.
"The world is paying a high price for relying on a flawed theory of world politics," writes Harvard University's Stephen Walt in Foreign Affairs. Russia sees Ukraine as a strategic imperative. Ukraine will never be as high on America's list of foreign policy priorities as it is on Russia's. And the situation in that region will never become a fight to crown the next global superpower.
Ukraine is not yet a member of NATO. Preventing Ukraine from joining NATO is Putin's top priority, but he also wishes to shut down any further NATO expansion. There are serious disagreements between member nations—best exemplified by Germany refusing to send weapons—about how to treat Ukraine due to differing attitudes toward Moscow. Getting heavily involved in Ukraine would distract NATO from its more challenging adversary: China.
Biden may not have any good options here. He doesn't want to sit idly on the sidelines while Russia trounces Ukraine, but it would be irresponsible to go to war there, especially just after ending another war that spanned 20 years.
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Hardly anyone (maybe no one) is arguing for an America war in Ukraine. The question is how to deter Putin's ambitions in Lithuania and Poland, both of which are NATO members in good standing. An important part of the answer has to do with making the annexation of Ukraine as expensive as possible for Putin. We should be clearing our defense contractors to sell anti-tank and anti-missile systems to Ukraine, and we should be transitioning away from Germany to establishing long term deterrent forces in Lithuania and Poland. Capitulation is not the path to peace. Appeasement will not avoid a war. War will be averted when Putin perceives that the risks and costs of going to war are greater than the benefits of doing so.
And the people who are arguing--in the name of libertarianism, that Putin won't fuck us if only we bend over, grab our ankles, and show him that we aren't a threat should all be ashamed of themselves. Mutual defense treaties are the most effective method of peace propagation ever devised. It kept the peace in Europe despite the hostilities of the Cold War being much greater than they are now. If our mutual defense treaty becomes less effective at preventing war now, it will only be because Putin decides that we aren't serious about our commitments.
People who think standing down is the solution to Putin's aggression are like the people who insist that defunding the police is the solution to crime. The only legitimate purpose of government is to protect our rights. The legitimate purpose of the police is to protect our rights from criminals. There isn't anything libertarian about shirking that responsibility. The legitimate purpose of the courts is to protect our rights from the police. The legitimate purpose of foreign policy is to protect our rights from foreign threats, and the most effective means to accomplish that in this situation is to vigorously defend the members of our constitutionally ratified mutual defense treaty.
No, we should not come to the defense of Ukraine as if they were in NATO, but Putin will do the same thing in Lithuania and Poland that he's doing in the Ukraine, and it is not in the best interests of keeping the United States out of war to stand by and do nothing while Putin waltzes into the Ukraine like Hitler did in Austria and Czechoslovakia. We can let our defense contractors sell the Ukrainians the means to defend themselves against Putin's aggression, and it's in the best interests of protecting our rights to let them do so.
What we really need to do is recognize that Putin's IQ is at least two standard deviations higher than any of our leadership, and probably three above everyone in the American press. It's like average people trying to handicap the Supreme Court.
"Putin's IQ is at least two standard deviations higher..."
And equal parts Machiavelli.
To be fair, a bum sucking quarters out of a NYC vending machine is several standard deviation points higher. What keeps him out of the Biden administration is a lack of hereditary wealth and a lower capacity for greed.
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Come on Eileen…
So you're saying Putin has an IQ of at least 90 to qualify by that standard.
Leading up to the invasion of Poland, Part II. As they and Lithuania are [unlike Ukraine] members of NATO, that would result in two very distinct outcomes.
One is all out war, the other is a total repudiation of NATO and anything it might mean. So is Putin likely to play this game at the opportune time when a debilitated senile has been politician is supposedly running the US?
And China and North Korea and Taiwan and our allies in the Pacific are all watching.
Watching the Russian economy tank? Watching NATO and Europe unite? I hope they're watching.
Except Germany is siding with Russia...
Biden should remove lots of US troops, weapons and $$$$$ from Ramstein, and send/sell some of our weapons to Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Romania and/or Bulgaria.
I totally agree, we should redeploy all our troops in Germany to our allies in Eastern Europe. I also remember when Trump proposed the same thing, he was accused of abandoning our allies.
Except for that one time they started WWI.
All those belligerents are in NATO now--except for Russia--and even in the case of WW I, the Concert of Europe (and those alliances) served to delay and push off a war that might have been fought much sooner otherwise. And if there were a conventional war averted between the Soviets and the West between 1945 and 1989, it was averted by the mutual defense agreements with our allies in NATO. Even right up until the end, our allies were pressing the point with accepting our Pershing missile deployments--to deny the Soviet Union a first strike capability.
The Russians were far more aggressive then than they are now, and the mutual defense treaty held them back then. There's no good reason to think it doesn't work now--so long as our mutual defense remains a legitimate threat to Russian expansion. Putin's aggression is only checked by his own interests, and so long as our mutual defense treaty holds, it will not be in the best interests of Putin to invade or annex Lithuania or Poland.
Meanwhile, even if you exclude the run up to World War I, I'd argue that mutual defense treaties have historically been effective at maintaining peace--going back to the classical world. They can and do break down as a prelude to war, which is the point here. Surely, you're not arguing that the best way for the United States to avoid a direct conflict with Russia is for NATO to break down. If NATO broke down, our chances of entering a direct conflict with Russia would rise.
I suspect Putin will wait until after the Winter Olympics in China before he sends troops into Ukraine.
Putin doesn't want shocking news stories of Russian missiles/tanks/troops invading Ukraine to preempt the Olympics, especially as Russian athletes are winning gold medals.
If Putin is going into Ukraine, he'll likely wait until the week after the Olympics.
Maybe, maybe not.
He doesn't care how he's perceived in the west. It's all about domestic politics with him.
On the other hand, Russia has been getting cozy with China the past few years, so Putin may not want to upset his new friend by spoiling their time to shine. Just a thought.
China is presently forcing European companies to boycott Lithuania right now.
"As Lithuania sought to deepen diplomatic ties with Taiwan over recent months, Beijing has moved to make an example of Vilnius by flexing its massive trade muscle and stopping imports of Lithuanian goods. Business organizations told POLITICO that China's embargo is now hitting manufactured goods from other EU countries — such as France, Germany and Sweden — that are dependent on Lithuanian supply chains."
https://www.politico.eu/article/china-trade-attack-on-lithuania-exposes-eu-powerlessness/
China is undermining the EU even as Putin seeks to undermine NATO--and Germany is the weakest link in both cases.
Leave it to Germany to screw up everything.
The spring thaw across Ukraine bogs tanks and transport vehicles down. I think Russia may have already lost its early 2022 window to invade even to the Dnieper. It could be just to annex Donbass and possibly secure drinking water for Crimea, which Ukraine shutoff.
"If NATO broke down, our chances of entering a direct conflict with Russia would rise."
NATO is breaking down and has been for a while. An anti Soviet/Russian alliance is much diminished with the rise of China as the chief rival to the Empire. Russia is all about buffer zones and border adjustments. China has a strategic vision that encompasses the world.
"Meanwhile, even if you
exclude[include] the run up to World War I, . . . "----Ken Shultz
Fixed!
Your arguments while articulate all fail on the assumptions that we are good and the Russians are evil. More the opposite if you ask me but of course you aren't asking, you're telling and so am I.
WWI was set off by an assassination. Coalescing obligations of treaties and mutual defense pacts killed millions. The mutual defense pacts of WWII did not deter Hitler and I doubt they will deter the international community that seems determined to beard the bear in his own lair.
If NATO broke down, the western dictatorships would not have the courage to attack the Russians or even to defend Ukraine in the event Putin lost his mind and attacked when he already has a winning position. If NATO broke down and abandoned Ukraine to its self-determined fate at least we would have peace. Peace for the majority, war for the minority of Ukraine.
Hopefully, there is no Neville Chamberlain to make a deal with the western dictatorships who are threatening Russia's borders?
It's even more exciting now because of the invention of nuclear weapons and their proliferation. Can't wait to enjoy a brisk nuclear winter~
This is why the US should stay far away from this conflict.
Mutual defense treaties didn't have such a great record in 1914. And we're not in a mutual defense treaty with Ukraine.
I think I answered that above.
PEACE IN OUR TIME!
I get that Germany doesn't want to reenact the war in Poland, but Europe needs to figure out how to stand up to Russia.
The Russian population is 150M. Europe is 600M (outside Russia). Ukraine alone is 43M. They should be able to figure out how to contain Russia.
As long as European politicians can get foolish Americans to pay for their wars and their security, they are going to do it.
As a bonus, whenever the US defends European interests, Europeans can accuse Americans of being “war mongers”, engaging in “Yankee diplomacy”, and being “militaristic”, while they think of themselves as master diplomats and peaceful, advanced societies.
Call their bluff. Let them defend themselves. There is no reason for the US to police Europe’s backyard or defend European interests.
Well said, but there is one thing we can do that is neither war nor appeasement; actually working with Putin and acknowledging the shortcomings of NATO.
Other than strategic objectives, Russians have just as little interest dying over Ukraine as the rest of the world. Nobody wants a war, especially not now. We're supposed to be friends, so why aren't we?
What America has constantly gotten wrong about NATO is thinking that the real issues have anything to do with the underlying territory and not with NATO itself. Want to talk about legitimate grievances? Let's see the US admit that there are Ukrainian Neo-Nazi paramilitaries committing war crimes against Russians that Ukraine's govt ran interference for, officially integrated into its military, and that the US/NATO indirectly finance through material support of Ukraine. But wait, we can't admit that Putin might have a point about anything because he's a brutal dictator and we wouldn't want anyone to start thinking that there's grey areas on these issues. No, Russia is the irrational big bad who does evil things because they're just mean 🙁
Has Ukraine attacked Russia? Or are you saying that there are Russians inside of Ukraine?
Because it would have to be one or the other for neo-nazi groups to be committing war crimes.
Or do you mean people of Russian heritage, who are citizens of Ukraine. One would think that they classify as Ukrainians.
I think the underlying issue is that Russia believes it needs a buffer from Europe. And there is historical reason for this, but it is questionable that there is still good reason.
"Other than strategic objectives, Russians have just as little interest dying over Ukraine as the rest of the world. Nobody wants a war, especially not now. We're supposed to be friends, so why aren't we?"
Putin's interest are driven by domestic politics. When Putin goes to war, his support will grow dramatically. He'll fun for reelection in 2024, and he'll throw half the country in prison before he lets himself lose. The open question is whether the Russian people will support him.
"Whether Russians believe Putin can solve the country’s internal problems, or should stay in power after 2024 is another matter."
"Levada’s latest survey on Putin’s standing with the Russian people, of 1,634 adults in late September with the results released this week, showed that 47% of Russians would like to see Putin remain as president after 2024, while 42% do not want that — the highest rate since 2013."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/14/what-is-putins-greatest-worry-right-now-his-own-citizens.html
Russians believed that Crimea was Russian. And ethnically they represented a majority there.
Some also believe that Donbass is Russian. The ethnic split slightly favors Ukrainians (from what I saw). Have seen interviews with former soviet republic citizens that preferred that life to the one they have now.
The Russians I know there probably don’t like Putin. We mostly avoid politics. They would share memes of him. Not like western cartoons lambasting western politicians. They make Putin look super human. Such as a shirtless Putin (but with the body of Klitschko) riding a brown bear. Or riding a gargantuan eagle. I think Churchill’s description of Russian and her people still applies.
The same thing in Lithuania and Poland? You mean encouraging the potentially pro-Russia factions in those countries that are challenging the sovereignty or legitimacy of their governments? Does that even exist in Lithuania or Poland the same as in Ukraine?
I don't believe Putin cares about popular support in Ukraine, Russia, or Poland as any more than a pretext. He just cares about popular support within Russia. If it behooves him within the context of domestic politics to reclaim everything that was lost in the west, he'll do so--whether the people of Lithuania and Poland support him or not.
I posted a link yesterday to a paper Putin wrote (or put his name to anyway) , recently, in which he explains in detail why the Ukraine and Russia are one people with one land. In that piece, he describes Lithuania and Poland in the same terms.
Putin's rationalizations go back to Novgorod, Russians ruling in Kiev, with Lithuania and Poland thrown in for good measure. It reads like Germans talking about the Dolchstoss myth and the Danzig corridor. Read it for yourself, courtesy of the Kremlin.
"Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“", July 12, 2021
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181
Who cares? How is that our problem?
Europe cares about these little states in their backyard. Let Europeans sacrifice money and lives to defend them.
The hypocrisy of western propaganda. We’re accusing Russia of attempting to install a puppet government in Ukraine.
In 2014 the US helped coordinate the EU coup in Ukraine.
In the recorded telephone conversation between Assistant Secretary Victoria Nuland and Ukraine Ambassador Geoff Pratt, they are CLEARLY heard discussing the planning of the coup that ousted the democratically elected pro Russian president, and the western puppets that they will install.
Nuland can be clearly heard saying their coordination should earn them an “atta boy” from (then Vice President) Biden”.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o
http://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-made/
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/06/03/how-why-us-government-perpetrated-2014-coup-ukraine/
You might occasionally have a point, but as a Jew-hating Nazi lying pile of shit, no decent person is going to take anything you say seriously.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Once again you demonstrate your willful bigotry as only you can.
Once again, you demonstrate your idiocy, dishonesty and projection, asshole.
Fuck off and die.
Trolls and bigots neither prove what they claim nor refute what you deny.
You have no respect for yourself and nothing to offer..
^this.
Main points are on Misek's head.
I see this as a bit like Democrats' claims about how the Russians deciding to elect Donald Trump in 2016. The question was whether Ukraine should embrace the EU and NATO or stay in Russia's orbit, and there were plenty of Ukrainians who wanted to embrace the west--regardless of what the U.S. government did, just like there were plenty of Americans who wanted Trump--regardless of how many ads the Russians bought on social media.
Certainly, looking at the protest movement against the pro-Russian government as the inauthentic voice of the Ukrainian people has problems, and, moreover, claiming that the pro-Russian government spoke for the people of Ukraine, even as the Ukrainian people were protesting against it, has even more problems.
If I were playing the romantic lead in a movie, opposite Scarlett Johansson, pretending to be physically attracted to her might not actually count as acting. And if the U.S. government were really the entity that lit the match to start the fire against the Russian backed government in Ukraine, those Ukrainians were already soaked in kerosene before the U.S. ever started any fires.
Light the fires against the democratically elected government in Ukraine, the US did.
There is no excuse.
At least Hunter and the Biden family made out like bandits in Ukraine after 2014.
Who else? Follow the money!
Well, Ken...the real question isn't "How shall we reign in Putin's aggression"....it's "Why should we bother?"
What's in it for me?
If Putin conquers Ukraine how, specifically, am I harmed?
If Putin is defeated (via hundreds of thousands of US dead), how is my life made better?
Will Ukraine put braces on my kids teeth or new tires on my truck in gratitude?
What's the POINT?
Three of my children are at prime age for drafting and taxes are my biggest expense. Why should I support another foriegn war in a country I don't care about that is likely to kill my kids and leave me even more taxed?
Let's just say "none of my business" and fix our own broken country and look to our own imperiled liberties.
I wish the Ukrainians the best of luck, but Vlad is their problem.
That was a perfect summation of my own thinking. If "the west" is supposed to intervene in this, that means you and me will have to pay for it and I pay enough in taxes as it is. Neocons and globalist interventionists (the same people in reality) should pay for this shit out of their own pockets.
In fact, if the US gets involved, it will cost trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of American lives.
European politicians will blame America, denounce Americans as war mongers and militarists, and then reap the benefits from whatever the US does in the aftermath.
Oh, and for good measure, the US will import lots of Russian and Ukrainian freedom fighters as “refugees”, who then proceed to carry out their terrorist actions and little wars on US soil while enjoying taxpayer handouts.
I think I answered this above.
"People who think standing down is the solution to Putin's aggression are like the people who insist that defunding the police is the solution to crime. The only legitimate purpose of government is to protect our rights. The legitimate purpose of the police is to protect our rights from criminals. There isn't anything libertarian about shirking that responsibility . . . . The legitimate purpose of foreign policy is to protect our rights from foreign threats, and the most effective means to accomplish that in this situation is to vigorously defend the members of our constitutionally ratified mutual defense treaty."
----Ken Shultz
If you want to poke holes in that argument, you need to attack the premises or the logic. I maintain that the best means to avoid war, in this situation, is the deterrent of a mutual defense treaty, so one reason we might care about threats to our allies is that we want to avoid the U.S. involvement in wars. Deterring an invasion of Ukraine lessens the chances of the U.S. entering a war. Meanwhile, we are obligated by treaty to defend Lithuania and Poland in the event of a foreign invasion, so if you don't want to go to war for them, you should want to deter a foreign invasion of either country.
Do you support defunding the police because you don't care about whether people elsewhere in the country are victims of violent crime? I consider protecting the rights of our fellow Americans from criminals to be a legitimate purpose of government on a principled basis, but crime has a way of spiraling out of control when it isn't addressed by the police--even if we live in the affluent suburbs. We might make the same observations about things getting out of control elsewhere in the world.
We ended up paying a hefty bill for the instability the Russians left behind in Afghanistan. The Europeans ended up paying a tremendous political price for the Syrian refugees who fled the instability of Syria. Meanwhile, Russia still has ICBMs with nuclear warheads to point at us, and their allies in Iran have both a nuclear weapons program and have already successfully launched satellites into orbit using multistage rockets. We haven't even started talking about China pressing its case when they see we aren't wiling to stand by our commitments to our allies.
So, yeah, the threat to our rights from foreign actors is real, and I think we should care about that.
Well said, KS. BTW, I expect the Poles are uneasily remembering the 1939 Molotov - von Ribbentrop Pact.
Problem with defense contractors now is they are “private” arms of our government. Funded by taxpayer dollars, which they use to buy influence and lobby for more tax dollars. Your suggestion would just make them arms of a foreign government as well.
Yes, aggression is bad. But the social contract we have with our government is that our taxes pay them to defend us, not to defend Ukrainians or Poles or whatever. If you want to defend Ukraine you can do it on your own dime, or you can go become Ukrainian.
Also some history lessons would add nuance to this issue. Ukraine is a highly artificial country. The eastern part has been Russian speaking for a long time; they don’t identify with Ukrainian speakers in the western regions. The unrest is partly triggered by accession of a highly nationalist government in Kiev that is trying to impose Ukrainian language and identity on parts of the country that don’t want it. In that context not hard to see why the Donbass would rather join Russia. And not hard to see why this is not our business and there is no clear good guy here. We already dispensed with sanctity of borders when we intervened in support of Kosovar independence.
"Ukraine is a highly artificial country. The eastern part has been Russian speaking for a long time; they don’t identify with Ukrainian speakers in the western regions."
The identity of the Ukrainians should be decided by the Ukrainians rather than Putin, and the argument Putin is making about Ukraine being a part of Russia is an argument he's also making (to a less immediate extent) about Lithuania and Poland. Please see the Kremlin link I posted above.
Pick up a gun and march right on over there, Ken. Nobody's stopping you, big man.
We didn't do a damn thing when the Soviets invaded Hungary or Czech during the cold war and we should do a damn think now. This crap about "the liberal order" begs the question..what is the "liberal order?" The EU? Central Banks? Rise of authoritative "wokism?" The end of nation states and the rise of global "experts?" JC...Europe is dead spiritually and has no pride. They are a defeated people, low birth rates, no religion, equality of results, tramping natural rights for "climate change." and so on.
Honestly at this point Russia would be a better ally with the US against China than the EU. And we need to ask ourselves why the usual suspects (foreign policy elites whose ancestry is from Russia or Eastern Europe) are screaming for war with Russia. It always comes back with these folks to some issue with the Czar. When the USSR was partially run by Troytksy, the liberals loved the USSR..hell the neocons were all troytskites originally. We don't see Italian Americans screaming for war against what the Pedmonts did "my people." Please just stop it...we need an American foreign policy that puts America First not hedge funds, goldman sachs or lockmart
I love Biden's justification for it. That Ukraine's borders need to be sacrosanct and unviolable.
Shame our borders do not warrant similar treatment.
You are free to go there and volunteer.
I recall a similar policy used in Afghanistan when the Soviets invaded there. The red army did bleed. And they left. The resulting blowback was also bad for the United States.
Seems normal that Europe is threatening to create a WW III scenario.
What's next, Alsace-Lorraine?
If Europe isn't willing to fight over Ukraine, why should we?
We don't have to fight. We'll be the arsenal of democracy. It doesn't take much to fight an insurgency anyway. The Taliban did it with gas cans.
Totally figures you'd advocate for terrorism. Way to help the little guys.
Libertarians: Willing to throw other people's sovereignty and liberty under the bus in the name of "PEACE".
If Russia is able to bully its way to what it wants is not good for peace in the long term. If you think you will sate Putin by feeding him Ukraine, your naivete is off the charts.
Pick up your rifle and go Mickey! They need your help now!
Something tells me that Mickey wants you (and me) to pay all the costs in money and lives. The people agitating for overseas wars generally avoid the subject of who's going to pick up the tab. It's considered vulgar to talk about that among the better sort of people.
I am saying there may be a higher price to pay in money and lives down the road if Putin gets his way now.
Yeah because when I think liberty, Ukraine always comes to mind first.
Mickey: Willing to get others killed for no good reason.
Fuck off, slaver.
"For our freedom, and for yours" - Polish nationalist motto.
Ukraine’s sovereignty is not America’s responsibility. Americans aren’t obligated to sacrifice a single life or spend a single dollar so that Ukraine remains free.
Saying that your interests are not my responsibility isn’t “throwing you under the bus”.
Except the history of this thing is bit more complicated than that, but I expect you are quite ignorant of what promises we made to Ukraine so they would disarm themselves.
I am quite aware of the promises that were made. I don’t care. And unless they are legally enforceable somehow (which obviously they aren’t), they are meaningless.
Perhaps the problem here is your ignorance of political and historical realities.
You should study the current tensions instead of wanting us to burn both money, and more importantly, lives in another war.
But hey, at least it'll help us forget about the current domestic failings, right?
Yes..Russia a country with a GDP not much more than Spain with have its tanks rolling across Ukraine then across Poland and be on the banks of the Oder in a week. From there to the Rhine and the Paris...Sure buddy sure.
Under an economic analysis the Axis powers had no rational reason to start WWII.
Trusting that a strongman leader will value these considerations in the same way you do to come to you consider a rational conclusion is dangerous.
My argument is not looking for war, my argument is that appeasing Putin here makes a general war in the future more likely.
Maybe the Us should double down and attempt to free Tibet as well.
I doubt Putin will be satisfied until he has rebuilt the USSR.
Dude can't even build Russia. It's a shithole. Good luck building anything.
The USSR was a shithole.
Why do you care? Seriously so what? The place has a GDP about that of Spain..yes the country of Spain. What interest is it to the US? We can't even protect our own border..our country is falling apart driven by "multiculturalism" and the DIE ethos...America became great by staying out of foreign interventions in the first place.
HOUSTON/LONDON, Jan 6 (Reuters) - Sky-high European demand drove U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG) exports to a record in December, Refinitiv data showed, with winter supply worries set to sustain orders for the fuel.
The US is setting records for natural gas exports.
Ignore the narrative from wingnuts that Biden won't let us produce energy.
Yes, I am talking my book. I own LNG stock.
OMG OMG OMG OMG
This is truly earth-shattering news. You were absolutely correct to post it in two separate threads (here and Roundup) in less than an hour.
Speaking of Roundup, you must be really disappointed in ENB though. I recall more than once you said stuff like this:
Hey ENB have I mentioned what a fantastic job you do? Just wanted to let you know how sincerely you're appreciated.
Yet today she spread wingnut.com disinformation about the i-word. Why would she do that? Are the Russians blackmailing her?
#LibertariansForBiden
I admit that I like ENB.
So she quoted y/o/y price hikes? I have no problem with reality.
But phony inflation aside, natgas is around $4.00 well below highs near $10.00. That is just a price change to me. Not inflation since it was $3 last year.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
But, but, but…NatGas BAD because global warming. So we should all be egging on Mr Putin to shut off the gas to Europe, then encourage them to go all electric like so many progressive cities are here, and they can buy heat pumps made in CHINA to keep warm.
Trust Buttplug to pretend a rise from a collapse is a "record setting" red hot economic indicator. Also trust him not to mention that this European demand is driven by Russian shenanigans and the incredibly stupid decommissioning of nuclear plants post Fukushima. Biden had less than nothing to do with it, you paid shill.
You're too stupid to be trying to be tricky here, Shrike.
When did I credit Biden for increased energy production in the USA?
I haven't, you moron. He deserves no credit.
But the GOP liars who falsely claim that Biden is killing the domestic energy industry need to called what they are - liars.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
"When did I credit Biden for increased energy production in the USA?"
Nice attempt at trying to redefine your argument but we can still read your earlier post. It's like you think you can warp reality:
"Ignore the narrative from wingnuts that Biden won't let us produce energy."
Nah.
Biden's first official act was shutting down Keystone XL.
Energy investors lost billions on the already 30% completed pipeline. This sent a message to those investors: "Do NOT invest in anything that might upset unattractive, autistic Scandinavian teenagers".
So, they put away their checkbooks until a more rational regime returns.
Next do oil imports from Russian and OPEC now compared to win Trump was in office.
Trump was a disaster for US O&G. Production plummeted and many like Chesepeake and Whiting went under:
HOUSTON (Bloomberg) --The unprecedented collapse in global oil markets brought another driller to its knees, forcing a champion of what was once the premier U.S. shale field to seek protection from creditors.
Whiting Petroleum Corp., facing more than a quarter-billion dollar debt maturity, filed for bankruptcy Wednesday, perhaps the most illustrious of the shale explorers thus far humbled by an unforgiving rout in every corner of the oil business.
What New York bankers called the "Trump death touch" certainly hit the sector. He is truly a con man.
Anyone that stiffed his paint contractors is a POS.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar and a TDS-addled asshole, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
"Trump was a disaster for US O&G. Production plummeted and many like Chesepeake and Whiting went under:"
Trying to allocate the direct consequences of the worldwide Covid shutdowns to Trump is retarded even for you.
Who do you think you're tricking with a kindergarten level of sophistry?
"...Who do you think you're tricking with a kindergarten level of sophistry?"
Sarc and jeff, is my guess; it takes STUPID on record levels for anyone to buy turd's lies.
"The "liberal world order" doesn't require a war with Germany over the Sudetenland."
"If any assembled Russian units move across the Ukrainian border, that is an invasion."
Define "assembled".
Missing from the analysis is the US role in Ukraine's denuclearization. We would've sanctioned the shit out of them if they kept Soviet nukes after the USSR fell apart, so they got rid of them with the understanding that they'd get our support if the Russians ever came knocking.
That was a stupid deal to make because the rest of the analysis is right; the Ukraine isn't worth large scale conflict with Russia. The US stands to gain nothing from that conflict. But it's a deal we made, why should any other nation put any stock in deals with the US if we just cede the Ukraine to Russia? Are our deals only worth something when they're convenient to us? This sends a dangerous message to any would-be nuclear state; get the bomb because we're full of shit on the subject and you can't count on us.
From Wiki FWIW
The ICBMs also had a range of 5,000–10,000 km (initially targeting the United States), which meant that they could only have been re-targeted to hit Russia's far east.[9] The air-launched cruise missiles (ALCMs) left by the Russians had been disabled by the Russians during the collapse of the Soviet Union, but even if they had been reconfigured and made to work by the Ukrainians, it is unlikely that they would have had a deterrent effect.[9] Had Ukraine decided to establish full operational control of the nuclear weapons, it would have faced sanctions by the West and perhaps even a withdrawal of diplomatic recognition by the United States and other NATO allies.[9] Ukraine would also likely have faced retaliatory action by Russia.[9] Ukraine would also have struggled with replacing the nuclear weapons once their service life expired, as Ukraine did not have a nuclear weapons program.[9] In exchange for giving up its nuclear weapons, Ukraine received financial compensation, as well as the security assurances of the Budapest Memorandum.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine
Key is that the signatories promise not to infringe on Ukraine, and to support their claims to the UN if there is an issue. It does NOT require the US to interview if Russia violates the memorandum.
And there are some interesting quotes from Ukraine on the matter of Crimea and nuclear deterrence.
"Key is that the signatories promise not to infringe on Ukraine, and to support their claims to the UN if there is an issue. It does NOT require the US to interview if Russia violates the memorandum."
The UN is completely useless, and everyone knows that, so thats not helpful! And there is an implicit understanding that the UN only works when the US bothers to enforce it, so there is still an implied understanding of us help.
Washington has a long history of breaking deals. This would not be a new revelation.
Having a history of breaking deals means usually that no one should ever make a deal with you. If you are going to depend on diplomacy to ensure peace, you have to be an honest broker.
Good. The US shouldn’t be making such promises in the first place. The sooner other nations understand that the better.
Likewise, the sooner other people understand that the US will default on its debt and stop lending us money, the better.
Ironically, the worst case scenarios of progressives (laws can’t get passed, people stop trusting our military guarantees, people stop lending us money) happen to be the best case scenarios for libertarians.
“Hey, everybody, if you believed our politicians that we were going to lift a finger to help Ukraine, you are a fool. Don’t trust our politicians or their promises—we don’t either . Solve your own damned problems.”
Drumming up a war with Russia over Ukraine would be a great way to get everyone's minds off the rampant inflation and shortages of goods and services here
After a nuke or two goes off, the Biden Administration can blame all the domestic troubles in the U.S. on Putin, effectively shielding itself from blame for the consequences of its own terrible decisions.
Nothing gets a shitty president's approval numbers up better than a good war.
Tail Wagging the Dog.
Great reason to "temporarily" postpone midterms, while encouraging people to rally around the president because patriotism.
Why would they postpone the elections if we've all rallied around our dear leader?
The problem for you guys is nobody outside of wine mom's and CNN viewers actually fall for your shit. Soviet propaganda was rarely believed by the masses, so they didn't risk free and open elections either.
Clinton dropped a few bombs after SpoogeGate came to light.
Ukraine is not
yeta member of NATO. So why act like they are?Getting heavily involved in Ukraine would distract NATO from its more challenging adversary: China.
I guess I missed the news where China was threatening to invade Europe or the North Atlantic.
Thanks - I was going to post the same thing if someone else hadn't commented.
The silk road gambit?
>>The risks of this conflict simply outweigh Ukraine's importance to U.S. foreign policy.
do they outweigh Ukraine's importance to Brandon's family estate?
Whatever. Russia's economy is already getting hammered. They're wasting money on this garbage aggression and for what. What has Putin accomplished other than uniting Europe and strengthening NATO the very thing Putin claims to not whar? It'll be more of that if Russia invades. Our experience in Afghanistan should be a warning to Putin. You can occupy the land but unless you genocide the people the war will go on and on and on until the Russians get tired of spending their money and burying their soldiers and it'll be way worse for Russia because the world basically supported the NATO occupation of Afghanistan whereas the world is against the Russians here and they'll be an occupying force with a weak economy. Plus China depends on cheap energy more than America which produces oil and gas. America is the number one energy producer so we're actually decently positioned to deal with higher energy prices.
I have to agree. Putin may want his empire back, but he's not stupid. Russia won't risk open war. Against an armed Ukraine, that would be disastrous, even if the west stays out of it. Against all of us and it becomes unwinnable, or at least catastrophic.
Pulling a Reagan is probably the best choice. Show enough strength that he can't actually invade and plan to outlast him. However, we have to actually be willing to stand firm if he calls our bluff.
I don't think there's going to be an invasion because I don't think Putin is dumb. His game is poison, bribery and gaslighting dumb people. If he attacks and murders out in the open he'll lose a big part of his strength.
"Russia won't risk open war. "
They already risked open war when they annexed Crimea. Don't underestimate their willingness to ensure the security of their western border lands, or recover territories once held by the USSR or Tsarist Russia, to put it less charitably.
Crimea was a surprise attack. No one expected it, and the fact that Obama just let it happen is probably the only reason that we are in this situation today. In 2014, Putin read the room and realized that if he acted quickly doing something unexpected, no one would stop him until he had his fake election legitimizing his invasion.
With everyone already looking at him, that's not going to happen. Either Putin is thinking that the Obama-wannabe will follow in his predecessor's footsteps or he is using this display of force to get some diplomatic deal on another front.
"Crimea was a surprise attack. No one expected it, "
The issue is whether Putin is ready to take on risks, and Crimea shows clearly he is. But, if he's of a mind to, he may get what he wants without firing a shot. He's a canny operator, and the Americans are simpletons. Witness our Ken Schultz and his let the arms flow cure all, trotted out yet again.
Guaranteed there is a smoke-filled room where the US State Department and Russian Foreign Ministry are meeting. I see 4 things that could happen, with #4 being the least likely.
1. Formal recognition of Crimea as Russian territory. This is the easiest to push through as possession is 9/10ths of the law.
2. Declaration of a Donbas Republic (under Russian protection). Again, given the Ukrainian government has no/little control of the area, not that hard to accomplish.
3. Ceding of the northern coastline of the Sea of Azov that Ukraine currently owns to Russia. It would return the Sea of Azov to being a Russian lake.
4. All of Eastern Ukraine from the Dneipr River where it turns at Dnipro becomes independent. This is about 1/3 of Ukraine, but contains the largest percentage of ethnic Russians in Ukraine. This one is the least likely because of the amount of territory involved.
Bottom line is that Putin has gone too far to walk away with nothing. A written agreement is worth the paper its written on, and the "Russian People" are gonna want something tangible, like land.
Ukraine is screwed if they get invaded. They'll get rolled by the Russians. Yeah, hard fight and all that, but they can't win.
And when Putin attacks in the coming months this will be a surprise to you as well.
Russian majority Crimea seceded from western backed Ukraine. It followed what Kosovo did in Serbia, which was accepted by the UN, the EU and NATO.
"Pulling a Reagan is probably the best choice."
Pulling a Reagan means earnest diplomacy behind the scenes, but talking in front of the TV cameras in ways that make Michael Brendan Dougherty as happy as a little girl.
While the US is obsessed with it's "cultural war" and decrying systemic racism, insurrection, homo/trans and various phobias NS all the while hurtling toward financial insolvency, we continue to live in a world of realpolitik. And other powers that have no qualms about taking advantage of our opportune weaknesses. In fact I would say it is their inherent obligation to do so, similar to a portfolio mangers fiduciary responsibility to make as much money as they can for their investors. Why would China and Russia forgo this? And no doubt a take over of Ukraine will be followed by an invasion of the rogue Chinese district known as Taiwan. And the colonization of Africa v.2.0.
Somebody needs to colonize Africa. Given that the West did a pretty crummy job of it, might as well see how the East fares.
Reason if they were around in WWII - What you want Poland? Here take it? North Africa? Sure. What else do you want?
No-one wants war. No-one. Sometimes you can't stand on the sidelines though. I don't want Biden in charge of the troops, he'll probably send them to the wrong country.
It is what it is currently.
But, they did get Poland.
and a rocket ship that only works at night, and a couple submarines with screen doors.
Poland defeated the UsSR on the battlefield during the interwar period. They could not withstand a joint invasion from both the national socialists to the west and a return visit from the socialists to the east.
I don’t get your point. Do you foolishly believe that WWII was the best of all possible outcomes?
If the US hadn’t intervened, Stalin and Hitler would have been at each other’s throats, potentially taking care of two problems at once.
POTUS Biden should speak to the American people, particularly if we are re-positioning troops and there is an increased likelihood of hostilities involving our troops. To date, he has yet to even consult with Congress....who BTW, is constitutionally charged with things like declaring war.
If we are going to commit troops to a fight, the Congress must vote.
Ukraine is not an ally by treaty. We have no legal obligation to Ukraine. Nor is there a vital US interest at stake. This is a European problem, ultimately. It is not our fight.
If we are going to commit troops to a fight, the Congress must vote.
Congress delegated the authority to declare war to the executive.
I keep hearing people say "Nobody's saying we'll actually go to war".
Heh. Nobody's saying it--or is it that nobody's admitting it?
I wonder why we have to give the Ukrainians weapons. Is the U.S. the only country in the world that knows how to make a rifle?
In any case, let's say we give the weapons--and Vlad invades anyway. Then what?
"...Biden may not have any good options here..."
Not to worry. Whatever you think is his worst option, he'll find something far worse than that.
After a dismal economic performance, Putin seems to have restored some of his luster within the former USSR.
If he has successfully forced the West to stop breaking the promises made after the collapse of Communism, then he has done both East and West a great favor.
Why would he want to play-out a self-destructive demonstration of why NATO is so important, merely to stop a Western encroachment that is in fact already stopped and bogged down in endless technocratic deal-making?
"...If he has successfully forced the West to stop breaking the promises made after the collapse of Communism, then he has done both East and West a great favor..."
And those would be?
I see your answer is "duh".
A not-so-bold prediction?
The US will end up with boots on the ground in the Ukraine.
Why? Gotta keep those "endless wars" going.....
At best, the US taxpayer gets fleeced again. And it puts nuclear weapon use in play, which should be avoided.
Huh? [eyeblink] What's been NATO's involvement with China?
Replace Ukraine with Czechoslovakia and Russia with Germany. You can make the exact same arguments. This article fundamentally misunderstands what's at stake here. No one is asking for war. But Biden failing to make a decent deterrent and this article being extremely naive as to what Putin is actually after is highly distressing.
Putin having strategic interests in Ukraine and we don't ... seriously? So we should just allow Russia to take control because ... he wants to? That's the argument? Any country has "strategic interests" in the country they want to take over. Doesnt mean we allow it.
We had this exact conversation with Crimea. If we keep doing nothing as Crimea, then Ukraine, then Georgia, then Poland ... then war is coming anyway. Impose a deterrent now and that is much less likely.
China has strategic interests in Taiwan too. What message does allowing Putin to act here send to them? That when it comes down to it, we are too weak to actually defend our allies.
Deterrence works if both sides impose a credible threat. If we tell everyone that hey, we don't give a shit, then we no longer impose that threat. That increases the chance of war! Because they think they can act with impunity, and they arent wrong!
Or you can say we won't fight back when Poland and all of eastern Europe gets invaded. You can avoid war yes by preemptively losing. Thats the outcome you want?
Putin isn't stupid and China isn't stupid. They arent going to trying something they know will end badly. If you assure them it won't that they can do whatever they want if they pinky promise not to do it again and again, despite the fact that they have already broken said promises, then I'm sorry your being naive. I understand Reason has a commitment to isolationism, but seriously get real. You can have that commitment and not be stupid.
What is the vital US interest at stake with Ukraine?
I am not being a smartass. I am being straight up with you. I just do not see a vital US interest; I see a European problem.
The credibility of the US rests on it being the defender of the free world. If we fail to protect Ukraine, that sends a signal to everyone else.
From an isolationist perspective, its not ideal! And I dont think its ideal for us! But it's the way the world currently operates, and there are ways to transition without blowing everything up.
The assumption you are making is that this is about Ukraine. Russia is not the only one doing this. China is looking at Taiwan. Saudi Arabia is looking at Iran. We do have strategic interests in these places. I'm worried that allowing this to happen tells autocrats and dictators all over the world that you can take these sort of actions eith impunity, because when it comes down to it, we do nothing.
Ukraine isn’t the free world. Neither is Europe.
The only thing the US should defend is itself. And the sooner other nations understand that the better for everybody.
The US not doing anything about Russia annexing Ukraine will have two serious consequences; strengthen Russia as they will now have their breadbasket and emboldening other countries to try the same shit.
Now neither of those are directly a US interest, but what happens when Putin or his inevitable successor starts encroaching on other parts of Europe? Parts that the US does have treaties with? Is he going to think "Okay, Poland is part of NATO and thus I better not mess with them or I'll be dealing with the US," or is he more like to think "Those western pansies don't have it in them to stop me! Send in the tanks, tovarisch!"
In a such a scenario, Russia would be both emboldened and better positioned than they are right now with Ukraine, so if the US does move to stop them it's going to require more effort then than it would now. And that's assuming Putin wouldn't see that as a bluff and call it.
Short answer, not checking Russia now leads to threats of escalation later and requiring more effort when that happens unless the US isn't going to do anything about future incursions. In which case, might as well dust out the old Warsaw pact.
To continue (because the previous comment was getting to long) there's also the problem of how other countries will react if Ukraine falls to Russia. You can bet your bottom dollar that China will go after Taiwan and that is a problem for the US. The US has a defense treaty with Japan and Japan wants to protect Taiwan. Not to mention other countries like Australia have interests there as well since Taiwan controls valuable shipping lanes. Thus, the US would be drawn into a war or forced to abandon its allies.
The point being that Ukraine is a litmus test for how strong the US appears and how able it is to project it's power. In and of itself it doesn't mean much, but as a symbol or a message it means a great deal.
Kindly kill yourself before you kill others.
The fuck man?
Yeah, that’s the kind of absurd bullshit progressives and war mongers actually believe.
Yes, we should just let Russia take control of Ukraine because he wants to. If he wants to invade Poland, that’s not our problem either.
European nations are spectacularly wealthy and technologically advanced. Ukraine and Poland are their backyard, let them police it. Or not if they want to have Russia on their doorstep.
Europe is anti-American, anti-capitalist, and anti-liberty already. The US has no interest in propping up these regimes.
I'm more afraid of the 'liberal world order' than I'll ever be of Russia.
The usual war mongers are out beating the drum for another war.
We have no strategic interest in Ukraine. Putin does.
It is OK, as long as you get eaten last?
I'm not going to claim I have the right answer here, but this article leaves out critical context. Ukraine relinquished nuclear weapons because of security guarantees from the US and Russia. Russia is obviously in violation of those guarantees. If the US lets Ukraine be absorbed, think of the message that sends to states like North Korea, or any state who wants to acquire nuclear weapons. We already screwed the pooch with Gadaffi. Iran and N. Korea are going to be watching closely. And other threatened states who depend on US security guarantees will also be taking a keen interest.
Nuclear proliferation doesn't feel like a particularly libertarian outcome to me.
Also:
"Getting heavily involved in Ukraine would distract NATO from its more challenging adversary: China." What the actual fuck? China is not why NATO exists, and defending against China is not NATO's purpose. Like at all. If NATO is wasting time talking about China, maybe its time to disband NATO.
Anybody who trusts US foreign policy commitments at this point is a fool.
Ukraine is not America’s problem, it’s Europe’s problem. Europe created the mess. Europe is getting into bed with Russia. Let them pay for their own defense and clean up their own back yard.
There is a far better case for the "domino theory" in eastern Europe than there was in south east Asia. The baltic republics with (not insignificant) Russian speaking minorities are going to be doubling down on their Nato status. Ukraine could be the 21st century "Sudetenland". Folks, we are in for some interesting times.
When you talk to Europeans, they don’t see Russia as a threat. Germany is planning to become completely energy dependent on Russia. Yet, they expect Americans to come to their rescue when the SHTF.
Ukraine is Europe’s problem. Russia is Europe’s problem. The US shouldn’t waste another cent propping up European regimes, regimes that hate us anyway. End NATO and let Europe fend for itself.
No one is Russian into a war here. You could see a war scare on the horizon only if zUkraine your neck. As far as how concerned actual Eastern Europeans are, I dunno. We’d have to take a Pole—but even then the results would need a Fact Czech.
If you don’t exaggerate what’s happening in Ukraine, you are a Fox-loving fascist. —CNN
It's pretty interesting to see that it was a Fox News host, Tucker Carlson, who spent about 9 minutes on why going to war with Russia is a terrible fucking idea. And I don't even think he mentioned the many lives that would be lost!
The Cathedral is bloodthirsty, and I'm hoping the majority of the right will push against this.
Nice to see the war advocates out and about. Please, if you want to "help" Ukraine, go ahead and go over there yourself. Leave America's men and women in uniform for conflicts that are actually pertinent to America's security and not the MIC's interests.
Oh, and take Liz Cheney and the rest of that drek with you.
The folks pushign the war won't be doing the fighting and dying. Their kids are all ivy league wokes who through family other connections are at Goldman Sachs, FB, Google, Twitter, IMF, World Bank or the Democratic Party/Biden admin. and little secret they despise the Americans who actually sign up and die for their wars. In fact, they despise America. They are cultural marxists who praised the USSR (until their heroes there were kicked out of the politburo and shot like Troytsky). These neocons/neolibs are traitors and should be deported immediately.
And the libertarians, like idiot heirs, will squander all the cultural capital better people have built up and submit to chains in the name of superficial peace.
THe kind of war mongering idiocy you promote is what is destroying “all the cultural capital better people have built up”. It is the kind of meaningless wars that you promote that “put people in chains”.
Completely unrelated, I hear eastern Ukraine has some very nice sight seeing locations particularly attractive to 5,000 US troops.
Ukraine had every opportunity to organize a Libertarian party and insert the American Bill of rights into whatever it chose to call a consitution. Now, for lack of a Second Amendment, Ukraine has no nuclear weapons with which to make a Russian invasion not worth the bother. Voters are the ones who get what they deserve when war finally gives them the initiation of force they asked for.
Even if we had good reasons, and I ain't saying we do, to go to war in Ukraine with our current leadership, fronted by Biden and Milley, would be disastrous.
"The 'liberal world order' doesn't require a war with Russia over the Donbass".
Should that read Donbass or Dumbass?
There is likely no winning scenario for the US and its allies. Best bet is to not promise too much and be ready to do all you can to stop Russia, understanding what you can do may not work. I trust President Biden because I think he has a healthy respect for not getting in too deep. He was an advocate for getting out of Afghanistan long before he was President. I think he understands the limits of military actions.
What this country could do and likely will not do is to support the President's decision. Putin gains not just territory in Ukraine but also from dissention here in the US.
Biden wants this war because Ukraine is his family's cash cow.
Biden only cares about how his decisions affect his own political power, reputation, and success. He doesn’t give a fck about Americans, Ukrainians, Afghans, or anybody else.
Yesterday, I asked my friend who works for Moscow city government this:
Will VVP be visiting Ukraine soon?
The response:
I don’t think so. I hope not.