When Humanitarianism Prolongs the Inhumane
"A future of bloodless global discipline is a chilling thing."

Humane: How the United States Abandoned Peace and Reinvented War, by Samuel Moyn, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 400 pages, $30
There is a technology that could radically shrink, perhaps even end, incarceration as we know it. But it might make the whole world a prison in the process.
The tech in question is GPS, which allows the authorities to monitor people in real time. Strapped into an ankle bracelet and surveilled by satellite, a criminal can live under house arrest, traveling only to his workplace and other approved locations, paying a share of each paycheck to his victims. As such sentences become more common, there could come a time when only those convicts who pose an actual physical risk to others would be confined in a more traditional way—and even that might be accomplished in a manner more decentralized than those big, brutal penal institutions.
That would be both more efficient and more humane than the old system, and it would deliver victims actual restitution instead of some platitude about "closure." Sounds good, right?
But the same system that could give greater liberty to people previously confined to cells could also mean less liberty for people who today are unincarcerated. Think of all the victimless crimes that are already on the books, and then imagine how the list might expand if critics couldn't confront new legislation with the argument Are you sure you really want to put people in jail for that? Ever-larger groups of offenders could be put under ever-more-intrusive sorts of surveillance and restriction, walking the streets but not walking them freely.
You can spin scenarios where we get some version of the first option but not the second; you can spin scenarios where we get the second but not the first. But there's also an uncomfortable possibility that the first will enable the second, with the state's hand clasping us more tightly in some ways even as it loosens its grip in others. As Samuel Moyn writes in Humane, "there is no single arc to the moral universe that guarantees that progress comes without regress on other fronts. The one can even facilitate the other."
* * * * *
Moyn's book is about wars, not prisons. But the dilemma he describes is strikingly similar. Humane tells the tale of two struggles, the fight to end war and the fight to humanize it, and how one gradually came to supplant the other.
When Moyn writes about humanizing war, he doesn't mean "humanitarian interventions" launched with promises to end a genocide or spread democracy—though the same people often embrace both ideas. He means making warfare itself more humane, by shielding the lives of noncombatants, outlawing the torture of POWs, and otherwise eliminating atrocities. Moyn, who teaches both law and history at Yale, offers a well-informed guide to how the laws of warfare were born and how they very gradually grew some teeth. Little bitty baby teeth, but teeth nonetheless.
But his account begins elsewhere, with an assortment of 19th century anarcho-pacifists—Leo Tolstoy, Adin Ballou, William Lloyd Garrison—who saw war itself as an atrocity. Garrison eventually made his peace with warfare, supporting the Civil War in order to bring slavery to an end. But Tolstoy drew the opposite conclusion from the abolition of chattel slavery: To him it showed that an ancient, seemingly permanent injustice was not inevitable after all, and that war perhaps could be eliminated one day as well. Moyn notes here that many reformers had fought not to stop slavery but to make it more bearable, "a project that coexisted comfortably with the strengthening of plantation discipline." Tolstoy would not settle for that sort of reform.
That era's push to humanize the battlefield was led by people with little interest in ending warfare altogether, and their earliest efforts to write their ideas into law had little impact on how combat was conducted. The peace movement had more momentum, helping inspire a series of arbitration agreements and disarmament treaties and, in 1928, the nobly intended if utterly ineffective Kellogg-Briand Pact, in which a host of nations formally agreed to outlaw war.
Those arbitration agreements were particularly popular. "The idea," Moyn explains, "was to encourage or force states into a system in which nonpartisan outsiders would adjudicate all or at least some of their differences." Unlike Kellogg-Briand, this actually got results: The 19th century saw "more than 150 actual instances of arbitrated compromise between states, in circumstances that might otherwise have led to armed strife." It was a more flexible, decentralized version of what later organizations like the League of Nations and the United Nations were supposed to accomplish. In fact, Moyn notes, "it was widely believed that a system of arbitration between states would avoid the trouble of setting up a more formal international organization of nations."
Many pacifists put their faith in the League of Nations as well, and in the broader concept of forming a world federation. But that idea wasn't universally shared. Moyn points out that William Borah, the progressive Republican senator from Idaho, backed the Kellogg-Briand Pact while opposing the League. Borah's was arguably the more consistent anti-war position: Scratch those world-federalist dreams, and you'll often come across calls for a policing arm that keeps the peace by force. The United Nations certainly hasn't been a very pacific organization—and while many world federalists would attribute that to its dominance by a well-armed superpower, a more egalitarian U.N. would still have those blue-hatted troops at its command.
There was less room for the old peace movement in the wake of World War II, but the dream of a world without war stayed alive. And while there's an obvious overlap between the desire to end warfare and the desire to sand away its ugliest effects, there are places where those paths diverge. As the U.S. escalated the Vietnam War—not exactly a conflict free of civilian carnage—it nonetheless announced that it would follow "the humanitarian principles enunciated in the Geneva conventions." Meanwhile, anti-war activists focused on the idea that the war itself was illegal.
The latter, with their sometimes rather creative interpretations of international law, sounded more like attorneys pursuing a longshot case than Tolstoyan radicals. (The law treated a war between countries differently than a civil war, for example—and so, Moyn reports, the anti-war Lawyers Committee Concerning American Policy in Vietnam "spent most of its time arguing that South Vietnam was not truly a state.") But even after the My Lai massacre of 1968 put war crimes near the center of the Vietnam debate, the protesters' ultimate aim was to end the intervention, not to humanize it.
Moyn contrasts the reaction to the My Lai massacre with the reaction to the Abu Ghraib scandal of 2004, which arguably did more to mobilize opposition to war crimes than opposition to war. That's certainly the impact it had in Washington. Barack Obama was widely seen as an anti-war insurgent when he ran for president, but while "the most egregious infractions of the prior administration were disowned," Moyn writes, "Obama's lawyers claimed authority to continue war indefinitely across space and time, devising formal legal frameworks for targeted killings." War would be less grisly but also omnipresent.
The resulting synthesis is still essentially intact today. Even former President Donald Trump, a man who skylarked publicly about targeting terrorists' families, didn't dislodge it: "He mainly aimed to take the policies of his predecessors further than they had," weakening Obama's rules but keeping the basic framework in place.
* * * * *
Needless to say, modern warfare is nowhere near as humane in practice as it is in the rhetoric of the warmakers. Drone strikes regularly hit the wrong targets, and even a narrowly focused killing can have vast and awful secondary consequences. (If NATO's Libyan airstrikes had killed no civilians, they still would have worsened a gruesome conflict.) But as a thought experiment, Moyn invites us to imagine a day when expertly programmed autonomous drones never hit the wrong man. Even then, he argues, we would have attained "not eternal peace but endless control."
And would those drones limit themselves to blocking terrorist attacks? Or would the control apparatus turn its automated system of surveillance and violence on smugglers, or migrants, or perhaps the leaders of a nonviolent rebellion in an allied state? Just as a carceral GPS system can be applied to an ever-growing list of offenders, so might this new eternal war. Indeed, the two systems could converge.
Wars today are both fewer and less lethal than in the last century, and that is surely a good thing. It is always better for civilians to be spared bombardment and for jailers to renounce torture. We should celebrate the shifts that make anything more humane.
But we can't let such reforms mark the boundaries of our goals. "A future of bloodless global discipline is a chilling thing," Moyn writes, even if bloody global discipline is chillier still. To avoid that fate, we need a "project of challenging hierarchy in all its forms." Otherwise, the same changes that made those hierarchies less brutal might transform the planet into a battlefield without frontiers and a prison without walls.
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Would this transform Earth into a prison planet?
Well, we are pretty much trapped here.
Elon musk says you can f off
Who do you think is driving that Tesla Roadster in orbit?
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A prison planet? Or something that Apes it?
Or a Hellstrom of ants.
Only if there are also chemicals that turn the frogs Gay.
Oh, hell, that's like saying increased wealth is a bad thing because then there's more temptation to steal, and more to steal. Or like safer highways and vehicles are bad because they lead to more reckless driving.
Except that is how government expands, by creating new scares and new alarms and new panics. Thieves don't create wealth so they can steal it, but burrocrats do create new excuses for their expansion.
Then imagine the opposite extreme: a world in which the only way to attack anyone is a button which, when pressed, instantly causes the universe to go out of existence. Like, cross anyone, and the only recourse they have is to abolish all existence. Does that inhibit the proliferation of nuisance and nuisance laws and oppression?
Well, as The Beatles oberved, if "nothing is real," then there's "nothing to get hung about. Strawberry Fields Forever."
I guess it isn't possible for the government to create definitions and labels that would allow them to act against people for "crimes" like "disinformation" or "speaking rudely to a member of a marginalized community". They might decide they need to protect the youth against online rabbit holes, like Joe Rogan or Tim Pool or Brett Weinstein or Jimmy Dore, or Breaking Points Saagar and Krystal.
Yeah, that would never happen, everybody stop slippery-slopemongering.
Just like they would never act against Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald or Aaron Mate. (almost left them out, though they are among the most likely targets)
that's like saying increased wealth is a bad thing because then there's more temptation to steal, and more to steal
No, it's like saying think of all the ways people subjugate and extort others for money and then imagine all the new ways they'd invent with more money.
Even more accurately, per your stupid side's own precepts it's like saying think of all the ways people with money subjugate and extort others without any money and then imagine all the ways they'd invent if they had even more control over more money while excluding others.
And even that doesn't entirely capture it because anybody can start a business and earn more money but only certain people can launch their own GPS satellite network into orbit. Even fewer can do so and use it as they please.
The most humane type of warfare would involve only people who try to instigate violence. Let the kings, premiers, and presidents fight duels while their minions watch and the rest of us ignore them.
I’m definitely pro-duel.
But what if the winner then gets to run everyone else in the world thru, or at least any and all they want to?
Maybe the biggest difference between the wars of the 20th century and the wars of today is the role of refugees. More then 6 million refugees have been generated by the Syrian civil war alone, ending up in mostly Turkey and Europe. Yemen is almost as large a source of refugees.
We can celebrate these trends as more humane, but the settlement of refugees presents the destination countries with a set of new problems. No longer are they going to engage in foreign adventurism without having to deal with problems on the home front.
There were refugees and displaced populations, but a smaller percentage in earlier conflicts. You don't really have much of a point.
"You don't really have much of a point."
To be clear, the point is the larger number of refugees that modern conflicts are generating. Over 6 million from the war in Syria, more than 4 million from Yemen. These numbers may not mean much to you, but in Europe, where the refugees are transforming the political landscape, it's a different story. Europe is a destination for many of these refugees and those from Libya, as well, crossing the Mediterranean, escaping all manner of conflicts across Africa. Caravans of organized refugees from strife torn Honduras struck terror in the hearts of nativist Americans recently, something new to the 21st century.
"terror"?? Fuck off. "Disapproval" would be more accurate.
Here we are with a homeless problem, and the rapid loss of low-skilled jobs, and the Dems are saying "Come on in! It'll be fine!" when that is not true.
To characterized it as "xenophobia" or "terror", or to call those who think we should have a country with secure borders "nativists" is the same kind of straw man bullshittery we hear from the wokies.
The kind of labelling a rational person would dismiss out of hand.
You aren’t replying to a rational person.
"terror"?? Fuck off. "
Many find an invasion of Marxist rapists and potential democrat voters terrifying.
"The kind of labelling a rational person would dismiss out of hand."
I don't consider you rational. Whinging reactionary is more like it.
Shhhh! Quit saying "6 million." You'll trigger Misek.
'Barack Obama was widely seen as an anti-war insurgent when he ran for president,' by the same dim crowd who bought into 'hope and change,' thought a Nobel Peace Prize was a good idea, and believe that the man whose presidency is known for lack of transparency and flaunting laws was a 'constitutional scholar.'
"Barack Obama was widely seen as an anti-war insurgent when he ran for president"
Seen in context it's understandable. He came into power after the century's biggest war monger, Bush, and his two biggest rivals for the presidency were John McCain and Hillary Clinton.
I didn't vote for Obama but I'll admit l was relieved when he won. McCain terrified me. But my hope soon changed to deep dark depression. The neocons were in charge until Trump. Once again hope was alive. But tragically libertarians couldn't tolerate mean tweets. The Lincoln Project and Reason got their boy and the neocons are back in charge. Good luck with that assholes.
Not many libertarians had that problem. The people who had that problem were the self-styled elites and leaders among libertarians, "conservatives", and many others. Them and those who needed to prove how libertarian they were by forever losing.
He came into power after the century's biggest war monger, Bush
False statement any way you slice it. He wasn't the 20th century's biggest warmonger. He wasn't the biggest warmonger 1908-2008. Or 1920-2020. He was the US's biggest warmonger from '00-'08 but 8 yrs. isn't anything close to a century. Even then, it was just the US. The Second Congo War, Syrian Civil War, and Darfur each outstrip Afghanistan and Iraq combined.
"He was the US's biggest warmonger from '00-'08 but 8 yrs. isn't anything close to a century."
8 year is enough. Many progressives felt it was 8 years too much. I tend to give him more positive appraisal based on his second term, firing Rumsfeld and signing an agreement with the Iraqi government for withdrawing, which Obama saw through, also to his credit. Bush also went easy on Iran and Palestinians, and held off the neocons for the most part. His first term was a disaster, but he got discombobulated by 9/11, he's only human. Before that there was the incident with the forced landing on the Chinese island of Hainan. He handled it coolly and it was resolved without escalation.
It's understandable, considering those people thought "Well, the last 100 Chicago politicians were corrupt...so we're due for an honest one, right?"
Like most Dem politicians, Obama can only be made to look good by comparing him to Republicans.
" tragically libertarians couldn't tolerate mean tweets."
Somehow I doubt that libertarian opposition to Trump, to the extent it existed, had very very little to do with Trump's defeat in 2020.
#1 factor was Trump himself, giving ammo to most of the media to show how obnoxious and crude he was to Americans who cared about form and not substance.
This is such an idiotic talking point.
Sure, Trump totes sabotaged himself as proved by his significantly better 2020 performance vs 2016.
Good call, soy.
"his significantly better 2020 performance vs 2016."
I think his 2016 performance was better. He won in 2016 and lost in 2020. His party controlled the house and senate in 2016 and in 2020 his party controlled neither. It's not clear how you think 2020 was an improvement. It seems it's you who have fallen prey to parroting idiotic talking points.
The founders of the constitution recognized that we need government and that those leaders need to be virtuous, acting in accordance with truth and righteousness.
Like punks, everyone lies, coercing others. Lying is the source of all conflict and corruption. The corrupt need to lie.
Criminalizing lying is what we NEED to do to bring back virtue and the spirit of the constitution.
No other issue matters as much as eliminating what corruption relies on. When people see that they can’t lie from an early age, a life of crime, becomes impossible.
You may never have noticed, if you're 10 years old, that the criminal class is VERY determined to get money without working, and the best-educated criminals, the ones with the most resources (politicians), have spent the last couple hundred years honing the sophisticated tools they use for their graft.
Simple example. Clinton (Bill) sold the country on his "Executive Compensation Reform Act", which limited corporate execs to $1,000,000 in wages. Great! Clinton the populist! Vote for cleaning up corruption!!
Now look around and see how top executives are now paid, and how much. EVERY attempt to reform the system that comes out of government ends up the very same way. Oh, and somehow, probably coincidence, donations to politicians and their campaigns have also risen astronomically. But sure, outlaw politicians lying.
Good freaking luck. Oh, and here's a black pill.
Lying is already criminalized necessarily in court and contracts.
Criminalizing lying makes sense in every way.
Once a lobby to criminalize lying gets started it will be very difficult to publicly oppose and it wil get traction. Add a few high value lawsuits and the tide will turn.
Future generations realizing the benefits of less corruption will wonder why it took so long to criminalize lying.
Aw, shit! It's too late!
You first.
Given the choice between wearing an ankle bracelet or being imprisoned. I would rather wear the ankle bracelet . But there's a better way if you have a problem either choice. Just follow the law. The real issue is why so many people have such a hard time with that concept.
Show me the man and I'll show you the crime.
Well, there are so many laws and involved in so many areas of life, and few of those laws involve protection of Life, Liberty, and Property. In 1994, over 470,000 volumes in The Library of Congress were devoted exclusively to law. Who knows how many 5here is by now?
As soon as we repeal all victimless criminal laws, let's talk.
Until then, let's vote Libertarian.
When I read the headline and subhed, I thought for a moment we might be talking about homelessness policy in blue cities.
Then I read this:
Strapped into an ankle bracelet and surveilled by satellite, a criminal can live under house arrest, traveling only to his workplace and other approved locations,
Now it feels like we're talking about COVID policy.
Barack Obama was widely seen as an anti-war insurgent when he ran for president
lol
"Barack Obama was widely seen as an anti-war insurgent when he ran for president"
Seen in context it's understandable. He came into power after the century's biggest war monger, Bush, and his two biggest rivals for the presidency were John McCain and Hillary Clinton.
And Obama’s VP choice was one of the jingoist senators that handed the keys over to Bush.
Don’t try to teach him anything.
"And Obama’s VP choice was one of the jingoist senators"
I never thought highly of Biden until I read Woodward's latest book which portrays Biden as the sole voice of moderation on all things Afghanistan. Not Obama, not Clinton, not the generals or advisors. He may have been a jingoist senator, but he seems to have been a dovish VP. He also had the troops removed from Afghanistan pretty sharpish after coming to office, which none of his predecessors managed to do. I know that some cases of night goggles went missing under his watch which many here find unforgivable, but I think this was getting off lucky considering the fiasco that the withdrawal could have been. An entire army of some 5,000 were wiped out when the British withdrew in the mid 1800s. The sole survivor, an army doctor served Conan Doyle as a model for Dr. John Watson, faithful side kick and chronicler to Sherlock Holmes.
Ffs trueman, there was an agreement between the United States and the Taliban for a May withdrawal and Biden unilaterally extended that into September so he could have a Sept 11 spike the football moment photo op to stroke his ego. He napped through the “in between” part until the Taliban had taken most of the country back and was surrounding Kabul. When that was happening he decided to take a vacation. He fucked that up royally and it wasn’t dovish. The US was in Afghanistan all eight years while he was VP. If he had been dovish (in stark contrast to as senator just a year prior), he was a failure at it. A portend for his later botch. The abandonment was a fiasco. The only saving grace was the Taliban decided to show restraint once they took Kabul. And why wouldn’t they? Biden was transferring tons of military equipment to them and ostensibly paying millions of dollars for plane fuel. Biden choosing to ignore the intelligence and providing misinformation to our allies seriously damaged the US’s relationship with Great Britain, Germany and France. They all were there because of us. Biden was censored by UK parliament. Biden also managed to drone strike children as a last hurrah. And there are reportedly Americans still stuck there. On a scale of Biden to ten, this was awful.
US lost the war. It's a shit sandwich, I know. Blaming Biden for all the attendant failures and humiliations of losing is overdoing it. Blaming the VP for the actions of the P is ridiculous. He played his part in starting it, but he ended it, and there was no way he could have won a lost war. Expecting to come home from a lost war covered in glory and praise is naive in the extreme.
And I understand your frustrations over the loss of our precious night goggles, and the rest of your laundry list. Again, if you're going to end a war it's better to end up on the winning side than the losing one. Life is tough and unfair. Lesson learned. Now find something else to whinge about.
Stop with the strawmen to chaff and redirect the multiple botches for Biden.
America lost the war. Blame Biden. I don't give a shit.
I did no such thing yet you double down on this strawman. You’re weak.
You haven't got a single positive thing about the president who finally ended the war. You whinge on instead about a few lost cases of night goggles. You're a partisan bore.
He extended the occupation that was supposed to end months earlier. He broke the agreement. He did so to satisfy his hubris. He really wanted that Sept 11 gala photo op. Instead of having a planned, logical withdrawal by May he instead just ignored it until the Taliban’s campaign demanded he take notice. And Biden had to botch the abandonment. First he said nobody knew. Then he claimed to be following what Trump was going to do. Then he blamed the Afghans. After that he pushed back with, “That was four days ago.” This happened to be two days later.
The estimate of transferred equipment by Biden to the Taliban was $10 billion. I’ll give you a few cases of night vision goggles in exchange that you give me $10 billion. Deal?
Also, how about someone drone strikes seven members of your family. Totes ok, right? They’d be considered a dove, correct?
I am partisan for the truth. At least he didn’t surrender or transfer a nu lear weapon.
"I am partisan for the truth."
The truth is that the US lost the war. The truer truth is that winning is better than losing. The rest is just opera.
War? The US only enters exercises of bullying.
Send full US military might into a small town and celebrate another glorious victory.
If you’re itching for war, to celebrate or lose, take on the Russians or Chinese directly.
Obama is smart enough to have known that his BASE, the 30-40% who wanted to "show we're not racist" or who just ASSUMED he was going to be a reformer, would see in him whatever phantasms of virtue they wanted to see. Hell, he barely even pandered.
And when the confused dopers started remembering "Hey, he said he was gonna legalize the ganj, didn't he?", Obama literally laughed at them. Amazing.
Or we could just prohibit government from initiating force and solve all our problems.
Name the last country that the US fought that followed the Geneva Conventions? The answer is none of them. It's important to be humane when engaging in conflict, but don't be a sucker. The West is held to a standard that the Russians, CHICOM, Vietnamese, N. Koreans have never even tried to uphold.
"Name the last country that the US fought that followed the Geneva Conventions? "
Iraq? If you think back you'll remember a whole lot of hand wringing about Iraq using nuclear, biological and chemical weapons against the invaders. They confined themselves to conventional weapons which wasn't nice of them, I grant you, but not a violation of the Geneva Conventions. And where did it get them? The US targeted hospitals, for example, killing doctors, nurses and patients indiscriminately.
Iraq was identified as not following the Geneva Conventions:
https://www.heritage.org/middle-east/report/saddam-husseins-violations-the-geneva-convention
There are other cites.
The US should have stayed out of it. Just as it should close all foreign military bases and exit NATO.
Saddam was no saint. He was pretty much on the up and up when it came to squaring up with the US military invading Iraq. Strictly conventional weapons, any prisoners taken treated reasonably humanely etc. The US can't boast as much, using proscribed weapons like WP, attacking hospitals, murdering staff and patients, sexually humiliating prisoners for their own sick delectation.
I understand that the Iraqi resistance made extensive use of bombs secretly placed in the road to explode while GI Joes and Janes unwittingly drive their 'armored' vehicles over them. Terribly unfortunate and unfair, to boot. But completely Kosher when it comes to Geneva Conventions.
The link refutes your lionizing Saddam. It cotes multiple violations, as have other sources. Biden and Bush went in there and chaos ensued. Never voted for either of those saber rattlers idiots. Best to avoid electing neocons and progressives.
I'm not lionizing Saddam. I'm pointing out that he was better at complying with the Geneva Conventions in the conflict with the US military than the US military was in their conflict with Iraq. This is in answer to the question:
"Name the last country that the US fought that followed the Geneva Conventions? "
The false implication of course is that the US followed the Geneva Conventions while all of her adversaries didn't. Not true as I've tried to make clear. In the invasion of Iraq, proscribed weapons were used, hospitals and civilian infrastructure were targeted, civilians murdered, prisoners tortured and abused, etc, all by the US, all prohibited by the Geneva Convention, the international agreement designed to make warfare more humane.
The Iraqi resistance was completely illegal under the GCs. Non-uniformed persons running around after an armistice are not recognized as being legal combatants.
Thanks to Joe Biden, Bush and the rest of the corporate stooges the invasion was completely legal and anyone who says otherwise is completely illegal.
Non-responsive. On Mute you go.
The US didn't target hospitals deliberately. I'd like to see your cite for that.
They destroyed hospitals, killed doctors, nurses and patients by mistake. Is that what CNN is telling you?
Non-responsive.
You asked for the name of a country the US fought which followed GC. I gave you one name, Iraq. Is that not response enough for you?
There is a technology that could radically shrink, perhaps even end, incarceration as we know it. But it might make the whole world a prison in the process.
The tech in question is GPS
There are actually several. 5G, IoT, satellite surveillance (visual or network), drone surveillance, financial surveillance... probably others that I'm not thinking of or that nobody's heard/thought of yet. True that several of the others don't have the reach of GPS, but it's relatively easy to evade GPS, simply don't carry a GPS transmitter and the system is blind to you. Several of the others, OTOH, can see you no matter what you do short of ceasing to emit body heat.
There was a counter-radar strategy in WWII of filling the skies with aluminum foil confetti to send the radar microwaves haywire. Is there something similar that could work with modern surveillance technology?
When Humanitarianism Prolongs the Inhumane
"A future of bloodless global discipline is a chilling thing."
This reminds me of a couple of questions I had during the Abu Gharib incidents.
My Grandfathers both guarded POWs in World War II, one in the European Theater and one in the Pacific Theater. Neither of them did anything humiliating or sexual with prisoners. They just stood guard over the prisoners with a loaded M-1 Garand with a Lead butt stock and a fixed bayonnet, ready to bash their heads, run them through, or shoot them if they tried anything. So, which way of treating POWs was better, then, or now?
Two, which would have been better, Abu Gharib, or if the U.S. Military simply took no prisoners?
The US had a problem, as most militaries did in WWII, of prisoners being shot out of hand. Patton mentioned it during the Sicilian campaign.
"My Grandfathers both guarded POWs in World War II"
One vet told me that German POWs were treated well, but Italians were shot out of hand at times. Apparently the Germans accepted their status as prisoners and acted accordingly. The Italians didn't and kept trying to escape.
So, how does this address my questions? If what my Grandfathers did undrr orders wasn't wrong by the Laws of War in the Geneva Convention, how was Abu Gharib?
Also, would taking no prisoners and just indiscriminately slaughtering anyone who stayed or retreated be better than taking prisoners and risking charges of cruel treatment?
There's a difference between acts committed in a rage of anger and passion and following an officially tolerated or encouraged policy. Ordering soldiers to carry out barbaric acts against prisoners will eventually rot at the military's moral fiber. I imagine too that soldiers will find some comfort in the idea that if taken prisoner they will be treated humanely. That seems only possible if the US treats her prisoners humanely. Two way street and all. I was reading about the crusades and prisoners were taken, especially the aristocrats, and could be held 20 years or more until things were ripe and the family could cough up a ransom. Conditions could be an abysmal vermin infested hole or quite lavish, entirely at the whim of the Pasha or local warlord.
These few opinions demonstrate that individuals are not collectively humanitarian—instead, they're individually self-centred.
Belgium, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Italy and Japan all signed the pact outlawing war.