Defending Armed Self-Defense
It's easy for many people to see the harm that guns are involved in every day in America, but much harder for them to see the harm that gun prohibition causes.

Gun control laws are wrong because they violate the right to self-defense. Gun control laws are wrong because they were historically crafted with discriminatory intent and create racially disparate outcomes today.
These are two distinct arguments against laws that limit private gun ownership. Libertarians, typically among the staunchest of fans of self-defense and self-determination, have tended to focus on the first. But the second is also important, both on its own merits and because it helps people otherwise concerned about discrimination understand why it is inconsistent to support such laws.
One can make the rights argument a couple of different ways. The first is to start from the belief, shared by many, that human beings are endowed by their Creator (or nature, or their shared humanity, or the universe, or even cultural patrimony) with certain inalienable rights, the right to self-defense among them. Once that is established, protections for those who wish to buy, keep, and use the tools of self-defense, including guns, follow close behind.
The Founders, not ones to pussyfoot around, put keeping and bearing arms right there in the Bill of Rights (although there, as in so many other places in the founding documents, one last pass by an especially pedantic copy editor could have saved the nation in general and the Supreme Court in particular quite a bit of trouble). The Founders were, at best, imperfect scribes of whatever rights people might in fact possess. But they did an astonishingly good job of capturing a laundry list of rights that the state ought not abridge, and they got them written down rather clearly and in short order, all things considered.
One need not be convinced of the existence of God-given rights to conclude that the harsher forms of gun control are unacceptable and unjust rights violations. "I contend that individuals have a prima facie right to own firearms, that this right is weighty and protects important interests," the philosopher Michael Huemer wrote in one of the more famous modern arguments against such restrictions. While "the right to own a gun is both fundamental and derivative," he suggests, "it is in its derivative aspect—as derived from the right of self-defense—that it is most important."
The argument that the existence of a competent police force obviates the self-defense justification for private gun ownership was made laughable twice over last summer, first as citizens marched in protest of police misconduct and second as law enforcement proved wholly inadequate to the task of defending lives and businesses in the corridors of cities where riots broke out.
And rights can and should be applied as equally as possible across the population, with as few exceptions as possible.
This basic rights argument is often laid out at length in part because it deserves the real estate. But it is not the only argument against gun control. And in emphasizing the rights argument, those who seek to protect the practice of armed self-defense risk being unpersuasive to the not-insignificant percentage of Americans who don't already happen to agree on a list of rights and their scope.
Most, but not all, of that group is concerned instead with harmful consequences. And it's easy enough to see the harm that guns are involved in every day in America. It's harder to see the harm that gun prohibition causes.
In "Gun Control Is Just as Racist as Drug Control" (page 18), Senior Editor Jacob Sullum makes this second type of argument, noting that it seems to be much easier for politicians, pundits, and activists on the American left to see how the war on drugs hurts everyone, but especially black people, and to move from there toward strategies for ending or reducing that harm. Yet too many remain stubbornly unconvinced on guns. "Progressive politicians nowadays overwhelmingly oppose marijuana prohibition and criticize the war on drugs," Sullum writes, "in no small part because of its bigoted origins and racially skewed costs. Yet they overwhelmingly favor tighter restrictions on guns, even though such policies have a strikingly similar history and contemporary impact."
It is unlikely, to say the least, that the United States has eradicated racism entirely from its police forces. But one need not believe that there is a single bona fide racist remaining anywhere in law enforcement to be concerned about the racial implications of gun control. Historically, the fact that the burdens of enforcement and sentencing tend to fall heavier on black Americans often struck officials as a feature, not a bug. And we live in a world shaped by the policies those officials adopted.
Disparate outcomes are not themselves definitive evidence that a law is unjust or that a legal remedy is needed, but they are a helpful clue that something may be wrong in the system and that the way we are building and applying our principles deserves more scrutiny.
There are many different reasons to engage in political argumentation. One is to rally the troops—to both firm up and confirm preexisting views. This is not merely signaling or recreation, though it can be both those things. Human beings enjoy repetition—lots of it, if most people's Spotify, churchgoing, and movie-viewing habits are any indication—and there's nothing wrong with that. Reason often returns to the same topics, rehearsing the case for and paths to a freer and fairer world in ways that will appeal to readers with whom we are already in broad agreement. Longtime subscribers may even remember a 1985 cover story titled "Gun Control: White Man's Law" that made many of the same points we're making 37 years later.
But there's also the much harder task of changing minds. The way to do this—perhaps the only way to do this—is to use a shared underlying view as the thin end of a wedge. In this case, the thin end of a very important wedge has been honed by concerns about harm, and the way to change minds is to probe for inconsistencies in the views of those who do not yet share your conclusions. Rights talk doesn't always have the same power to leverage existing beliefs into new insight and interpretations.
This issue of Reason is full of arguments that ask readers—in this case, mostly left-leaning readers—to think about the consistency in the formulation and application of their beliefs, not just about gun and drug control, but also about income inequality ("Against Champagne Socialists," page 28) and the proper role of the courts ("What Progressives Get Wrong About Judicial Review," page 42).
Ralph Waldo Emerson may have insisted that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, a notion that has given aid and comfort to hypocrites for more than a century. But a desire for internal consistency can also drive meaningful change.
Not every argument offered as a way to bridge those gaps in consistency can or should rest on the same deep principles. Instead, the goal (an ambitious one, to be sure) is to figure out how to talk to each other and come to shared conclusions about how to move forward.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
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Gun control zealots often end up shooting their mouths off.
It's such an echo chamber these days. What a load.
Round after round we go.
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Maybe they need a a good magazine to keep them occupied.
They're always going off half cocked.
Buttigieg prefers fully cocked and loaded.
Of the 7 gun control zealots I know
There are 6 of them that know dick about guns and 2 of them are insufferable
Stupid reason, 762 was suppose to line up vertcally
So, where's the point?
Inasmuch as preserving ones own Life is the most Human Right of all, an adequate means of Individual self-defense must be a fundamental component of any truly comprehensive healthcare plan.
Doc, I need a fresh prescription of anxiety pills. You know, those brass jacketed ones.
Probably brass-cased, copper-jacketed.
Look at Mr. Ammo-nazi.
Why thank you 🙂
Can I get a refill on primers?
Seriously.
Historically, the fact that the burdens of enforcement and sentencing tend to fall heavier on black Americans often struck officials as a feature, not a bug. And we live in a world shaped by the policies those officials adopted.
No no no, Ms. Mangu-Ward, you are entirely wrong. Because what you have just described is the essence of the concept of "structural racism" and I have been told over and over again that so-called "structural racism" is a myth, the only racism that exists today is that which is perpetrated by bad individuals in the present moment (and of course the only ones left who do that are Democrats nowadays!), and the racists of the past who created institutions, traditions, and structures that were in part shaped by their racist beliefs have absolutely no bearing on the modern world whatsoever.
The past shapers of structural racism were mostly Democrats back then too.
Jeff is stupid enough to believe Nixon won the southern strategy despite the South not switching until after Clinton after the old racist democrats died off.
You had me at ‘Jeff is stupid’.
Democrats: knowing what is best for colored people since 1828.
Don't forget about the
Puerto RicansHispanicslatinx community.I never get tired of watching progshits unload the magazine into their foot.
AOL is Lolita Lebrón 2.0
LOL
Well done. 🙂
#LibertariansForCRTInPublicSchools
#RadicalIndividualistsForRacialCollectivism
Quotes a statement saying "historically" then transitions to saying it means current day.
Jeff is a fucking idiot.
Surely if he is truly a hypocrite he will respond along the lines of foolish consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds, right?
By the way jeff. Your white savior mentality is one of the classically racist behaviors seen throughout history.
And the people who whine about structural racism all day love gun control. Weird. It’s almost like they’re just authoritarians looking for excuses.
So, Jeffy, anything that induces or perpetuates differences between arbitrary groups of people, say divided by skin color, is structural racism--and bad? Then what about groups that deliberately distinguish themselves and promote their own sub-cultures, in the name of heritage or pride or whatever? Should we vilify them, too?
Historical racism caused racially disparate conditions that are still present today. I don't think anyone here will argue with that statement.
What people object to is the claim that the continued existence of racial disparities can only be because of racism today and that the solution can only be something called "anti-racism".
If it's part of the "liberal" or"progressive" agenda it can't be racist. It just can't be.
If a subgroup is causing disproportionate harm and occupy more than their share of prisons when judged under the same laws as everyone else, is it REALLY racism?
Because somehow I don't believe that a majority of our judges and juries are just waiting to dish out some disparate outcomes - unless you're wealthy enough, then color and crime are largely irrelevant.
2A forever, but please don't try to make this about race.
So if the criminal justice system is entirely nonracist and race-neutral and all the laws and procedures and systems are completely on the level, what are the reasons for the disparate outcomes?
Damn jeff, you are on fire today with the Dr. Kendi-inspired analysis! Did you receive one of his books as a holiday gift?
Merely asking WHY there are disparate outcomes is not pledging allegiance to Dr. Kendi's ideology.
I will tell you all why I think there are disparate racial outcomes. It is because both race and crime correlate with poverty and class. It is not that the criminal justice system is racist per se. The criminal justice system processes the people that find themselves trapped within it, whoever they are. It is that the people who find themselves in the system in the first place are more likely to be black because they are more likely to be poor, live in shitty neighborhoods, and have bleaker life prospects than those who are not. So based on this analysis, if we really want to talk about criminal justice reform, we should start by discussing issues of wealth and poverty. And THAT is where libertarians can offer a valuable voice to the conversation - because we know what is the best way to generate wealth, it is with markets and capitalism. Freer markets means more wealth, less crime, less poverty, and fewer disparate racial outcomes in the criminal justice system. I don't think this is the ENTIRE solution, but I think it is a big part of it.
I am quite certain that Dr. Kendi would disagree with the notion that capitalism is the best way to address disparate racial outcomes in the criminal justice system. But conservatives and libertarians generally seem reticent to even engage in this conversation. They would rather screech and yell about OMG CRITICAL RACE THEORY and try to shout down and ban even discussion of the topic. If one side won't even engage in the conversation, then it cedes the field entirely to the other side when it comes to the discussion. Libertarians need to make a liberty-focused argument on how to address these important social problems.
Don't confuse loudmouth conservatives who claim to be libertarians with actual libertarians.
Libertarians don't engage in cancel culture. That's conservatives and the leftists they hate do.
The irony of the guy who mutes anyone who points out his argumentation flaws and encourages others to mute those same people. Lol.
I think at this point, we have to conclude that the conservatives who want thoughtful, reasoned dialogue on an issue are the RINOs who want to "appease" and "surrender" to The Left. The TRUE CONSERVATIVES are the ones who want to fight fight fight and 'pwn the libs' by any means necessary. The TRUE CONSERVATIVES are the ones storming the Capitol on Jan. 6, not the ones condemning it.
Man the irony of you two in your posts. Lol. You attack the other team by convincing yourselves they are attacking you.
If these comments are any indication, true conservatives don't engage in dialog with people who disagree with them. They yell and shout and call them names, they tell them they're stupid and irrational and not worth a conversation, then cross their arms in smug victory.
You claim everyone you are postulating about is on mute. So how can you make your claims?
Everyone here has responded to yours and Jeff's arguments. You are the only 2 blinding attacking a full group based on assumptions.
In your case it’s a function of you being a dishonest, drunken shitweasel. And make no mistake, we coddle you here. You’re treated far better than you deserve.
Maybe we shouldn’t be so nice.
You aren't asking why. Youre saying race is the only possible answer. Because you're a sniveling white savior mentality racist.
“ system. But conservatives and libertarians generally seem reticent to even engage in this conversation. They would rather screech and yell about OMG CRITICAL RACE THEORY and try to shout down and ban even discussion of the topic.”
Maybe those conservatives and libertarians see CRT as a vague mechanism where democrats and progressives blame capitalism and individualism for everyone’s problems and promise massive, centrally planned “cures” that correlate highly with Marxism.
More likely theyve read the actual materials and history and see it as an extension of critical theory and a move to the objective over subjective.
Jeff and sarc merely defend it because the right attacks it and the left supports it.
Sorry. Subjective over objective. Basically a means to conditions their beliefs into conclusions without rational thought. See jeff.
People are willing to discuss it, but not those from your in-group, who believe it the 'science is settled,' as it were. Your arguments, as is typical, lack nuance. Yes, black folks do tend to be more likely to be lower income, and more likely to choose to commit crimes. The question is why. Is it a matter of culture? A failure of the education system to adapt to the needs of black students -what you might call systemic racism, and I would call lazy, poor teaching? As for the embrace of crime as a cultural matter, I have no answer, as I can not say that this is more prevalent in low income black culture than in white. As for Kendi, bringing him into any discussion, then mentioning 'liberty-focused arguments' is risible. He, and his disciples, do not appear to have liberty on their mind, if being racist, their word, is the solution to past racist actions and policies. Yes, they are free to be bigots, and to discuss their bigotry, but it is curious that you and your in-group lap it up when you decry the same from the white supremacists.
"And THAT is where libertarians can offer a valuable voice to the conversation - because we know what is the best way to generate wealth, it is with markets and capitalism. Freer markets means more wealth, less crime, less poverty, and fewer disparate racial outcomes in the criminal justice system. I don't think this is the ENTIRE solution, but I think it is a big part of it."
Jeff, try that argument on the race hustlers i.e. Democrats, and see how far you get. By the way, I largely agree with your point, the "problem" that exposes itself in seeming disparate impact is based on economic class and not on race.
Why are there disparate differences in outcomes between men and women being put in jail? The system must be biased to target men more than women. It's the only thing that makes sense! /s
Jeff, do races commit crimes at exactly equal levels? Your entire premise requires that. Also....
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745731839/new-study-says-white-police-officers-are-not-more-likely-to-shoot-minority-suspe
How many BLM protestors were shit unarmed? How many got light sentencing? For example less years for planting explosives than throwing a fire extinguisher.
Youre a racist so you see only race.
"Because somehow I don't believe that a majority of our judges and juries are just waiting to dish out some disparate outcomes - unless you're wealthy enough, then color and crime are largely irrelevant."
You illiterate scabrous twat.
Ask him about jan 6 arrestees and watch him change his tune.
Was just reading the latest round of political theatre this morning on that - again with the greatest threat to democracy being the actually mostly peaceful protest.
Jeffy was sheltering for his life with AOC, so I understand the trauma being fairly intense.
Because ghetto culture and soft on crime D.A’s induce black people to offend more?
Consider Washington D.C.
If you are a Black man with prior felony convictions, and are found with a firearm, they take the firearm away and either don't prosecute, or let you plead down to some sort of misdemeanor. If you're a White man from Montana, who is used to carrying a ranch rifle in your truck and forget to take it out when you visit D.C., they throw the book at you.
Equity?
Past racist policies certainly have something to do with it. But there are tons of factors. Calling the whole situation "racism" because of the racial disparities that exist is a good way to miss the point.
Let's take drug laws as an example. Many of them were originally put in place for at least partly racist reasons. But the laws are not inherently racist in any way. They apply regardless of race and there is nothing about being black or any other race that inherently means you are more likely to be involved with drugs. They are bad policy, but are not racism per se. And if you focus only on the racial aspect, the real problems won't be addressed.
Eliminating the vestiges of racism is a fine goal, but it absolutely will not be sufficient to eliminate the racial disparities that exist which have a lot more to do with culture and government welfare programs than anything else if you ask me.
No, no. We must remember that it is White Supremacy that caused the CBC to demand stricter enforcement and bigger sentences against the drug dealers destroying their communities with crack cocaine.
Because they don't have enough guns -https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/
The origins of gun control laws were very explicitly about race.
Firearms are the only way for the weak to effectively defend themselves against the strong.
Requiring proof of knowledge and responsibility around guns isn’t gun control, in my opinion.
Pick your battles.
The burden of peood must be on the state.
…shall not be infringed. The state has no grounds to make demands, regardless of the proof.
Can we arm the Jews too? Or is that verboten?
On the surface that may sound reasonable, but the politicians do not always act in good faith. For example, under Virginia's pre-1996 concealed carry law, the county judges had to sign off on permit requests. In "blue" counties like Fairfax the judges blanket refused to sign off on any permit applications simply because they didn't want the commoners carrying guns. Sorry, not their call...so the legislators had to pass a Shall Issue concealed carry law.
Other tricks can include requiring range qualification at a state-run range, and then not making any such ranges available.
I agree.
The corrupt will always try to take advantage of the reasonable.
Civilization requires us to make reasonable laws that stop them.
The corrupt use propaganda to influence the ignorant to oppose reason.
The only solution that I can see is to redouble our efforts to be reasonable, supporting logic and science all the time and accepting no less from anyone. Let everyone know this clearly.
It’s the only thing that truly frightens the corrupt.
Constitutional carry bypasses those progressive barriers.
Depends on who enforces the requirements. When the strong are the ones who define what "knowledge and responsibility" is required to be allowed to defend yourself, there is a bit of a problem there. The government is the ultimate example of "the strong". They are the ones we need the ability to defend against.
Firearms are the only way for the weak to effectively defend themselves against the strong.
Which is why the Nazis outlawed the carrying of weapons by Jews and "non-Aryan peoples" via The 1935 Law of Weapons, according to Don B. Kates' book Gun Control: The Liberal Skeptics Speak Out.
It is also why Islamic Sha'ria law prohibits Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslim Kuffir from riding horses or bearing arms in societies within Dar Al-Islam (The House of Submission) where Sha'ria law prevails.
Yep, that beautiful creation of Samuel Colt was called "The Equalizer" for a reason: It makes that 98-pound Jewish old lady in tennis shoes the better of any Jackbooted "Aryan Pure Superman" as big and wide as a door.
Maybe you'll get to see the Colt in action after you and your buddies go on a Beer Hall After-Party Putsch. Damn, I can't wait. 🙂
As much as I love Koch-funded libertarianism (Reason, Cato, etc.), my major complaint is its outdated position on the so-called "Second Amendment."
Obviously the way forward for our movement is to continue what we've been doing for the past several years — explicitly aligning ourselves with Democrats and progressives. They have completely embraced our open borders agenda. Shouldn't we return the favor by embracing their sensible common sense gun safety agenda?
#Resist
#LibertariansForGunSense
It's easy for many people to see the harm that guns are involved in every day in America
Its easy to see because you have 99% of the media hell bent on telling everyone how awful guns are and completely ignoring to hundreds of thousands to millions times a year that guns are used for self defence.
As if the media wants folks to think and act for themselves. Just watch the programming, ask your doctor about the advertised drugs that have rectal bleeding as a side effect and buy the other products in their ads to keep up with the Joneses.
In all fairness, those are minisculely rare side-effects that drug companies are required to mention mostly by litigation. The real problem with those commercials is that they never answer two questions:
1.) How much does it cost?
and
2. Who's going to pay for it?
As long as third parties such as Government and Private Insurance are the mandatory or Government-encouraged middle-men, you'll never hear the answers to those questions. Thanks and props to my Doctor for imparting that insight in a conversation on Socialized Medicine.
Compare the rate of injurious firearm discharge to the frequency of nothing happening per individual.
It's probably better than traffic.
"Gun control laws are wrong because they were historically crafted with discriminatory intent and create racially disparate outcomes today . . . . [This] is also important, both on its own merits and because it helps people otherwise concerned about discrimination understand why it is inconsistent to support such laws."
Still, even if the origins of gun control were not racist, it would still be a violation of our Second Amendment rights. In fact, if it had been the other way around--IF IF IF the motives of the people who initiated our free speech, religious, or gun rights had been racist--that wouldn't take anything away their legitimacy as the linchpins of a free society on their own merits. People still have the right to speak their stupid minds, believe in their stupid religions, and defend their stupid selves with a firearm--regardless of whether they're stupid in this particular way.
Seems to me that when we suggest our fundamental rights should be supported on the basis of something our rights don't really depend on for legitimate support, we're just setting ourselves up for failure. Surely there must be some way to both oppose the stupidity of racism and support the Second Amendment without unnecessarily making our Second Amendment rights vulnerable. Oh, and there are good anti-racist arguments for black people to arm themselves to defend themselves from government oppression by the government--not just criminals.
"Armed members of the Black Panther Party standing in the corridor of the Capitol in Sacramento protesting a bill that restricted the carrying of arms in public, 1967. (Credit: Walt Zeboski/AP Photo)
https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act
Even my credit union allows open carry on premises. Leave the blue states. Life is better.
But I might have to give up the constant shouting from ever-expanding numbers of self-identified splinter groups as they critique every other group.
This brings to mind Elie Mystal.
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/supreme-court-gun-rifle/
that might be true in the swamps of Cajun country, but that certainly is not true in the subways of NYC.
Elie Mystal has a reputation for accusing cops of being racist.
And yet he complains that the Supreme Court overturning the Sullivan Law would "would take the discretion out of the system and basically mean that anybody can get a permit if they fill out a form".
It is like, for these people, cops are Klansmen with badges who habitually gun down unarmed Black men, except when they enforce gun control laws.
Like, consider a cop in a n office, with a framed, autographed picture of David Duke, a copy of the Turner Diaries on his desk, and a Confederate flag hanging on the back wall.
He then sees an application for a pistol permit, and must use his discretion to decide if the applicant gets a permit.
He suddenly undergoes a Magical Girl Transformation®™.
The David Duke picture becomes a Martin Luther King, Jr. picture.
The Confederate flag becomes a Black Lives matter flag.
The Turner Diaries becomes Dreams of my Father.
Not a trace of white supremacy remains- until he makes his decision on the permit application.
He then goes back to being a Klansman with a badge.
"...that might be true in the swamps of Cajun country, but that certainly is not true in the subways of NYC."
Have you ever spent time in the "swamps of Cajun country?" If you had [I grew up there] you'd know they are far far safer, civil, and humane than any subway in NYC.
^this.
And no one gets shot for being black on NYC subways either.
Good Lord. The complaints here in the comments are why libertarians never win.
There is nothing wrong whatsoever in using multiple arguments in order to try to persuade people to adopt your point of view. Not everyone is interested in the Lockean rights-based talk. Believe it or not, a lot of people view liberty from a utilitarian perspective. (Shocking, isn't it?) And that is true more or less for all of us, at least to a certain extent. Be honest: if, in an alternate universe, communism empirically produced superior results over capitalism, how many here would still be such ardent defenders of capitalism?
There is no reason not to make honest, truthful, reasoned arguments to support a libertarian position, regardless of whether Milton Friedman would approve of that argument or not. The truth of the matter is, if we had less gun control, we would also have fewer racial disparities in the criminal justice system as well as fewer racial disparities among victims of crime. Those are both good outcomes. And yes that is a utilitarian argument in favor of repealing gun laws. But so what? No one is arguing that gun rights DEPEND on a utilitarian justification. They don't. It is simply another argument in the toolkit that can be used to persuade the persuadable on the matter.
The problem is that arguments aren't merely methods of persuasion, but justifications for why our laws are written the way they are. There's no point in convincing people that a utilitarian approach to civil rights is appropriate because that would suggest we're open to restricting freedom if the other side can convince others that respecting that right causes harm. This is already happening with 2A. Some people seriously suggest that I am at fault for gang violence because my rights create a supply of guns that makes forming a black market for crime slightly easier.
Stop ceding the argument to Marxists. Natural rights are NON NEGOTIABLE. Use a better argument to convince people of that.
Other constitutional provisions place limits on the state to keep us safe from the street thug and the gangbanger.
Consider the 4th Amendment. It restricts the ability of the police to find evidence of criminal wrongdoing. This means the street thug and the gangbanger may get away with their crimes, which enables murder. Not only that, the 4th Amendment is unique to the United States of America. Surely the police in Paris, Lagos, or Singapore do not worry about the 4th Amendment, probable cause, or the exclusionary rule. They just look for evidence.
Why not follow the example of other countries?
Or what about the 5th or 6th Amendments?
How many more street thugs and gangbangers could we catch if we could make them testify against themselves? Or why even bother with trials? Why not trust the police to judge who is and is not guilty? How much more difficult would it be to commit murder- let alone get away with murder- if we let the police judge whether or not a street thug or gangbanger is guilty?
Or what about the 14th amendment? What if there were certain racial demographics in the U.S. that commit murder at a significantly higher rate than the general population? Why should not the police focus on those demographics? Why should not lawmakers place extra restrictions on the liberties of people in those crime-prone demographics. Would it not be worth it if it prevented one murder?
Why do we need civil rights at all, given how they tie the hands of the state?
Progression; the 2nd and 1st Amendments are now fair game; start with those on move onto the others; then we will be so much more like GB and Europe.
"Some people seriously suggest that I am at fault for gang violence because my rights create a supply of guns that makes forming a black market for crime slightly easier."
Well said; I've always contended that myself and people like me, which comprises literally 99+% of gun owners, are not the problem. In other words, if those persons who do NOT belong to the NRA, the GOA, the SAF, et al and or have a concealed carry permit stopped shooting people, the gun homicide rate would drop to zero.
And yet somehow it's our fault. Because guns are just inherently evil and we law abiding gun owners get in the way of progressive legislation to ban them in order that the very small percentage of repeat offenders have a harder time acquiring them.
And I ask; why not focus on the criminals who misuse guns and enforce stiffer penalties on them [yes, that is pretty much a rhetorical question]?
That might be fine if criminal law was limited to actions with actual victims. Thing is, laws like that are more often used as an addon to victimless crimes to force a plea bargain. Guns don't have to be used, they just have to be present. Now the accused is looking at five years per count just for the guns, when they never hurt anyone. When looking at a sentence like that they take the plea, even if they're innocent.
Talk to us about how the Jan 6th non violent paraders deserve all the time in jail they've received again.
Some people seriously suggest that I am at fault for gang violence because my rights create a supply of guns that makes forming a black market for crime slightly easier.
That's like the claim of John Ashcroft that smoking marijuana aids and abets terrorism because terrorists sell black market drugs. The idea of eliminating black markets via deregulation and re-legalization never occurs to such people.
However, you can still tell them all to: "Fuck off, Slaver!"
The truth of the matter is, if we had less gun control, we would also have fewer racial disparities in the criminal justice system as well as fewer racial disparities among victims of crime. Those are both good outcomes.
By themselves, they're not. The goal is not to have fewer racial disparities in the pursuit of justice, the goal is justice-- which should be color blind. We don't tweak the justice system until we have a proper balance of black and white people behind bars. It's not only an impossible goal, but a very dangerous one that can only be achieved with racist policies.
If a higher per-capita percentage of black people are ending up behind bars, we address the root causes of crime in those communities, such as poverty, welfare dependence, joblessness. Those things are hard, but that's the only way.
And "fewer disparities among victims of crime"? Definitely not a laudable goal. Otherwise a perfectly legitimate outcome would be to increase the victimization of crime against... white people until those disparities disappear. Disparate impact in and of itself is not the issue.
Occasionally I do agree with you.
Libertarians ALWAYS win. Remember Comstock censorship and coathanger laws? Remember conscription to attack SE Asia? Remember when All States sent kids straight to prison for the wrong kind of plant leaves? Libertarian spoiler votes leverage the greed and hatred of Kleptocracy factions to make them choose between losing to each other and repealing violent laws. Search "Libertarian Candidate Speech"
So why aren't Libertarians (or small-l libertarians like myself) winning now?
You sure you're not thinking about #Winning?
Ah, Hank..."Sadder still to watch it die than never to have known it." --Rush.
Anti-gun activists and the Left more generally see self-defense as a malum in se crime rather than a basic human right. Using a gun for self-defense is even worse: That's "premeditated" self-defense using lethal force.
Usually they're Fabian about it: They'll concede that a right to self-defense exists in principle, but they'll also deny the legitimacy of any real-world example of self-defense they're offered. They'll make the legal conditions required for self-defense narrower and narrower until self-defense is something that only exists in theory, and never in reality.
That is why they have much more outrage against Kyle Rittenhouse than the McMichaels.
The McMichaels 'only' killed someone who may or may not have pilfered and pinched some stuff from a construction site.
Rittenhouse killed rioters and arsonists who were trying to kill him.
I have a neighbor who truly believes that resisting an attack is morally wrong, since the resistance might induce more violence and the attacker might get hurt.
Dox the bastard and let everyone know who he is and where he lives; then watch how he likes being fleeced of everything he owns and his family being subjected to violent assault.
It's easy to exude "chardonnay wisdom" and proclaim what you think is right, moral and just when you don't have any skin in the game.
Would he have the same attitude if he had a teenage daughter?
This neighbor is a woman, and she actually struggled with the hypothetical about intervening if an attacker was killing her husband (with him sitting and listening).
Sounds like a sanctimonious freak; her spouse chose poorly.
Did you tell the person to fill out a will and see that the life insurance is paid up?
Worse than that I've known people who see self defense as vigilante justice. They see no difference between fighting back and hunting someone down after the fact. I've never figured out how someone can think that way let alone how to convince them that they're totally wrong.
...because state sponsored revenge and punishment is totally different and correct, unlike private enterprise.
Not always: NYT 09NOV1938 All jew weapons in Berlin confiscated, 2569 handguns and 1702 long guns plus 20,000 rounds.
Daily Express 11NOV1938: But their shops, their offices, their goods are gone. Late tonight, the work of destruction done, police and Black Guards are standing in front of the ruins to prevent further pillage.
More recently the Prohibition Kleptocracy sent an armed agent to infiltrate Mexico to ban plants and confiscate assets, then were as angry as the Nazis when the equal but apposite reprisal occurred.
Kyle Rittenhouse is a true American hero.
If he had lost his court case, that would have been a serious blow against armed self defense
You do know he votes for Democrats, not Republicans, right?
Cite?
As do many guests on Steven Crowder's show.
He didn’t turn 18 until a year ago yesterday. So I don’t think he’s had a chance to vote for anyone.
Him being found not guilty was a shot in the arm for the self-defense crowd.
And definitely a booster as well. And herd immunity against herds of rioting thugs.
Yup. It's sad that an obviously correct verdict in a case that shouldn't have even gone to trial is exciting good news, but here we are.
Is anything happening to that prosecutor? He should be disbarred and spending some time locked up himself.
Gun control laws aren't per-se racist, but there's a reason why government restrictions tend to target blacks; blacks are poor.
People who can pay to avoid and circumvent govt overreach do. Those who can't bear the burden.
Yep. Gun laws aren't racist; the original proponents of them were. The U.S.'s first anti-gun laws were directed against both black slaves and freed blacks.
Legislative history in The Congressional Record reveals that part of the intent of the Reconstructionist Fourteenth Amendment was to keep former Slave States from disarming newly frèed slaves.
New York's 1913 Sullivan Act was directed against immigrants of the time. Also, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership points out in it's scholarly literature that the 1968 Gun Control Act was inspired by the Nazi German Law of Weapons.
As I think the bumper sticker put it: Free Men Own Arms! Slaves Don't!
No progressive politician (on either side) opposes the war on drugs.
The criticism is limited to how it is to be "fought".
I promise to embrace gun control once the government shows me it’s a good steward of the monopoly on violence in society.
Go.
" One need not be convinced of the existence of God-given rights "
Competent people neither advance nor accept superstition-based (or supernatural-based, or religion-based) arguments in reasoned debate among adults, especially with respect to public affairs.
Competent people embrace data-based decision-making.
Reflexively blaming everything on racism isn’t that.
Competent people embrace data-based decision-making.
Competent people make correct decisions regardless of evidence. Rational people make correct decisions based on evidence. The two groups are not an identical set.
Reflexively blaming everything on racism progressively excludes you from either set.
Competant people have to be rational first and act repeatedly on rational decisions from "muscle-memory" until circumstances changeand new evidence emerges which justifies changing decisions.
But yeah, blaming everything on racism or any other cause in absence of evidence is irrational, incompetant, and moronic.
Gun nuts are among my favorite culture war casualties.
They -- like anti-abortion zealots, White nationalists, and others who have hitched their political wagons to the losing side of the American culture war -- are going to watch the liberal-libertarian mainstream increasingly disregard their preferences as the settled-but-not-over culture war progresses. Aligning with bigoted, backward, downscale losers has consequences.
That’s a strange perspective, considering how much is in their favor, and how frustrated gun control advocates are.
Gun nuts are among my favorite culture war casualties.
I'm unsurprised that you're a JoJo fan.
JoJo Siwa is anti-gun? Say it ain't so!
The Founders, not ones to pussyfoot around, put keeping and bearing arms right there in the Bill of Rights (although there, as in so many other places in the founding documents, one last pass by an especially pedantic copy editor could have saved the nation in general and the Supreme Court in particular quite a bit of trouble).
Given Reason Editors' penchant for declaring teens with guns running towards as 'fleeing, unarmed' and '[insert link to support claims made without evidence here]' editing-style I, and I'm pretty sure SCOTUS, much prefer the FF's rendition, thanks.
I don't care what SCOTUS prefers.
If the second amendment just said "the right of the people, as individuals, to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Why put that "well regulated militia" stuff in the actual text of the law when it adds nothing to the legal meaning?
The people who want the federal government to pay for their "right" to abortion must be fine with the government also funding gun purchases for anyone who wants to exercise their 2nd Amendment right.
Christian nationalsocialists enact healthcare-at-gunpoint, then are horrified then a Libertarian platform plank smacks down their Comstock-era bloody coathanger laws. The same 1972 LP platform also urged abolishing coercive healthcare funding and cartels, but the conservative Supreme court struck down girl-bullying instead! Now bigots want the Political State to pay medical cartel rates for their own treatment, and still bully girls and open fire on women's clinics. And Mangu-Ward is worried about logical consistency in her article!
But the second is also important, both on its own merits and because it helps people otherwise concerned about discrimination understand why it is inconsistent to support such laws.
This is where KMW discovers that "disparate impact" is an... elastic and fragile concept.
The First Amendment has a disparate impact.
"that human beings are endowed by their Creator (or nature, or their shared humanity, or the universe, or even cultural patrimony) with certain inalienable rights, the right to self-defense among them."
"Unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other"
A direct quote from Jesus Christ himself. If you want to go to heaven, don't shoot your cheek smiter, but forgive him/her.
"If you want to go to heaven, don't shoot your cheek smiter, but forgive him/her."
If you want to get there faster, anyway.
Forgiving my cheek smitter (verbal or physical insult)? Done that.
Forgiving an assaulter intended to kill or cripple me? NO.
Forgiving those who trespass against us is your ticket to heaven.
Plenty of time to forgive after killing your attacker.
Neither Heaven nor Jesus Christ exists or ever existed, M'Lady. The meek will inherit the Earth only by probating the wills of the strong. Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't. Or as Clint Eastwood put it:
https://youtu.be/s2w9X_tHU7k
"Neither Heaven nor Jesus Christ exists or ever existed"
You also doubt that the Creator endowed us with the inalienable right to kill. Then by all means shoot and shoot to kill.
A Creator God does not exist either, M'Lady. Any and every right we humans have is Natural and exists by virtue of being rational animals. And the Natural Universe is just a metaphysical given, changing form, but uncreated and indestructible.
And when someone among us goes irrational and thinks my Life, Liberty, and Property are his, then I don't reason with him, but exercise the right to self-defense by whatever level of force will stop the threat.
I am a peaceful person, keep to myself, and start no fights, but I do stand ready to finish them with any who would start them.
"but I do stand ready to finish them with any who would start them. "
Killing someone who attacks you is probably unnecessary and going too far. That's the problem with guns. Used properly, they kill. We had a whole discussion here a while back on the idiocy of 'shooting to wound.' Pepper spray or brass knuckles are less lethal, cheaper and more convenient.
"Any and every right we humans have is Natural and exists by virtue of being rational animals. "
Rights are a legal construct, aren't they? They exist if you are on the right side of the law, and don't if you aren't. Saying they are Natural strikes me as mystification. And what is a rational animal? Apparently even invertebrate creatures like wasps are capable of grasping fundamental laws of logic like transitivity. (If A is greater than B and B is greater than C, then A is greater than C. Once upon a time it was taken for granted that only humans had the brains for such reasoning.) Rationality seems to set a rather low bar when it comes to granting rights. On the other hand, some environmentalists want to grant rights to things like forests and mineral deposits.
You just can't compare public health statistics across countries and conclude that America's liberal gun laws are anything but a complete bloody shitshow.
It's a religion for you. A religion based on bloodlust and fatuousness. Just admit it, then we can figure out how to deprogram you so we can elevate this society to something less resembling Afghanistan.
If you remove gang related crime from murder statistics in this country (as in get rid of the drug war and that crime will evaporate just as gang violence evaporated in 1933) the actual murder rates are comparable to that of other first world nations.
And if you don't count the elderly and obese, COVID isn't much more than a bad flu. Whom do I get to count as non-humans in support of my political viewpoint?
Gang- and drug-related activities are associated with high rates of gun deaths all over the world, but every study done shows a real correlation between gun ownership rates and gun deaths.
It's just a social problem we are perfectly free to try to solve, if only nutbars who worship death machines would stop being so insane.
And if you don't count the elderly and obese, COVID isn't much more than a bad flu. Whom do I get to count as non-humans in support of my political viewpoint?
People who disagree with you I guess. And yeah if you exclude the vulnerable COVID is a bad weekend.
Not sure what that has to do with guns.
If we exclude people who die by guns, then there are zero gun deaths.
MATHS!
If we exclude people who are killed in a war created by government prohibition, then overall homicides aren't significantly different from places that aren't shitholes.
Tony endorses the "Ban The Club" signs Neanderthals relied on to disarm other early hominids.
Translation: communist biological weapons goood, mixed-economy defenses against totalitarian nuclear weapons baaad.
Oh, troll harder.
You sound like some hysterical crazy Karen: “bloodlust!”
Take a chill pill and calm down.
He probably just had a popper.
I'm not a "bitter clinger to guns and religion." I'm a cool caresser of my arms and Mother Nature, because I know that anything can be made a weapon if you know it's nature, including an enemy's own overwhelming force.
And I also know that some silly, posturing, pompous twit like yourself isn't going to get within 6 feet to try and disarm or "reprogram" me or anyone else, no matter how many "we"s you bring along.
Petr Beckmann pointed out, to Tony's discomfiture, that communism is a religion no less altruistic and self-deluding than any other. So of course the first step in capturing and enslaving the foolish is to get them to hand over their weapons by law. And since every law is a promise to use weapons to murder however many disobedient resistors it takes to impose the lawmakers' will, it is only natural to force-initiating collectivists to try and see if victim gullibility can be made to work as an initial kluge.
All communist tools were assigned one overarching agenda after Klaus Fuchs and David Greenglass informed the Soviet of the success of the Manhattan project. To this day, Job One is to neutralize the Second Amendment and ban our anti-nuclear defenses so an altruist dictatorship can make an example of this uppity democratic plutocracy. Once the world is safe for totalitarianism, their ilk may resume their millennial genocidal rampages unhindered by lay science and engineering.
Argument from circular intimidation: assume that if a comparison were made, its outcome would be bloody X. Ergo, conclude that bloody X is true without any verification whatsoever, since it was already in the premises.
Florida pistol and repeating rifle permit law.
Found unconstitutional.
Watson v. Stone, 4 So. 2d 700 (Fla. 1941)
Supreme Court of Florida
Filed: November 21st, 1941
CONCURRENCE Author: Rivers H. Buford
"I concur in the judgment discharging the Relator because I think that Section 5100 R. G. S., 7202, C. G. L., is unconstitutional because it offends against the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and Sec. 20 of the Declaration of Rights of the Constitution of Florida.
. . . .
"I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps. The same condition existed when the Act was amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of security. The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied. We have no statistics available, but it is a safe guess to assume that more than 80% of the white men living in the rural sections of Florida have violated this statute. It is also a safe guess to say that not more than 5% of the men in Florida who own pistols and repeating rifles have ever applied to the Board of County Commissioners for a permit to have the same in their possession and there has never been, within my knowledge, any effort to enforce the provisions of this statute as to white people, because it has been generally conceded to be in contravention to the Constitution and non-enforceable if contested."
Since Democrats claim to be the compassionate party, isn’t it time for them to show a little compassion for the millions of people disarmed and then murdered by their own governments and others?
Blacks were disarmed after being freed from slavery and left defenseless against armed whites.
Women need guns to defend themselves against some men.
Russians were able to overthrow the tyranny of Czar Nicholas, II because they had guns, as many were armed veterans of World War I. Unfortunately, they established a new form of tyranny and confiscated guns from the masses so Russians now cannot overthrow the new tyrants.
American Colonists were able to overthrow the tyranny of King George, III because they had guns, as many were armed hunters. Unfortunately, Leftists want to confiscate our guns and leave us defenseless against their form of tyranny.
Germans voluntarily gave up their guns. Then the Nazis came into power and murdered millions of them.
On December 29, 1890, the Seventh Cavalry (U.S. Army) forcibly disarmed most of the Lakota Native Americans near the Wounded Knee Creek in South Dakota and then massacred approximately 300 men, women, and children in the group.
The list of disarmed victims is endless, and they deserve some compassion.
Sir, the United States has drones.
They didn’t do much good in Afghanistan.
The United States government is far more motivated to keep the United States government intact than it is the Afghan government, presumably.
The US government is even less likely to sustain effort when the casualties and damage are all at home, as well as the image of declaring war on its own citizens.
But you think that having sensible gun policy is equivalent to declaring war on the population, right?
No, but they’re not doing it because they love people so much.
Translation: by "sensible" the national socialist writer means using the initiation of force to disarm all but Gestapo and Wehrmacht forces.
Guns, like other tools, separate us from the depredations of irrational animals. This simple fact was grasped when a German Jew retaliated against Christian National Socialist aggression in soon-to-be-surrendered Paris. Racial collectivist gun laws followed promptly, and to this day socialist dictators try to inveigle looter politicians into signing away their voters' Second Amendment rights to repel a nuclear Blitzkrieg by signing an ABM treaty. Hitler disarmed European Jews and Nixon, for a time, disarmed American ingenues.
Sollum says "gun control [laws] are unjust because they criminalize conduct that violates no one's rights". Drunk driving violates no one's rights until you actually hit someone due to being drunk; does that mean it shouldn't be criminalized?
Gun rights absolutists. Are you asking for:
- No background checks. No waiting period so there is time to check. If you beat your girlfriend up and threaten to shoot her, you can still own a gun because you haven't yet been convicted of a felony.
- No places where you can't bring guns (except to the Supreme Court of course because the gun-rights absolutists on the court are hypocrites). Why not bring them on planes? Someone might try to beat you up with a laptop on a plane and you'll need to defend yourself. Oh, there's that issue with hijacking...
- All guns treated equally, whether AKs retrofitted with bump stocks to be almost automatic vs. Deer rifles.
What are the limits? I don't understand what kind of gun laws *would* be ok in a libertarian utopia. Why can't an 18 year old bring his handgun to high school? After all, he needs to be able to defend himself against nuts who may try to hit him with their skateboards..
Well, if we are talking about obesity, there are genetic components that are related to one's predisposition to being fat. Is that what you are suggesting with regards to race and crime?
Jeff also apparently thinks racism was never discussed prior to CRT which has convinced minorities to support segregation. Lol.
So people are not a product of their environment?
Consider two men with identical moral positions when it comes to theft. Both men believe that theft is wrong, except when absolutely necessary - if necessary they would steal in order to feed their starving family, but other than that, theft is wrong. Now, the first man is very poor, so much so that he is put in the position that he must decide whether to steal to feed his family. He tries to do so, gets caught and is punished. The second man, however, is relatively well-off, so he is never put in the position to have to consider stealing to feed his family.
By outward appearances, the second man appears more moral; after all, he's not in jail, unlike the first man. In reality, however, the second man's moral beliefs have simply never been tested, and if they had been, he would have been revealed to be just as moral (or immoral) as the first man.
To a certain extent, moral beliefs are a luxury, and the more means one has, the more one has to indulge that luxury.
Only the truly fat ones blame their genetics first.
So you take one component and focus on that alone as if it were the ONLY cause. Then wonder why nobody takes your questions as serious or honest.
So again - starting with the premise that the current criminal justice system is completely race-neutral and objective and on-the-level (the scales in your analogy) - we observe disparate racial outcomes, which in your analogy is that the fat man registers as fat, and the thin man registers as thin. So the question is WHY these outcomes appear in the first place. Why is the fat man fat? Why is the thin man thin? Why are there disparate racial outcomes? That is the question I am asking here.
Your entire argument relies on the belief that races commit crimes at exactly the same rate.
People don't have self agency? Are you blaming your parents now?
He is saying people have no choice in their actions while claiming to be a libertarian.
Being raised by welfare moms in shitty neighborhoods with shitty schools has no influence on predisposition to criminality?
Reason does not have any libertarians writing for them.
I get your point. But I think that if you stick only to the principled arguments you aren't going to win many people over. Most people won't be convinced of the value of liberty unless they can be shown how it helps with other things they care about.
There are a lot of things to criticize Reason writers for. But I don't think trying to make arguments that appeal to people who aren't already hardcore libertarians is one of them.
I'll see you and go you one further: The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights are only documents that recognize the Individual Rights which Indivjduals possess at hirth by virtue of being rational animals, regardless of immutable conditions of birth such as sex, gender, orientation, national origin, ethnicity, or "race."
FTFY
So you refuse to answer a simple, clear question.
I'm not making an argument. I'm asking a question to clarify what you were saying to jeff. I wasn't aware that you were the grand arbiter of rules on these here comments. Excuuuuuuse the fuck out of me.
The irony again being sarc doesn't understand he is making leftist assertions. There is no libertarian solution to force equal starting points in life, yet that is the way his argumentation leads.
People don't start off equally. But they are given equal chances to succeed in life if they choose to do so.
And sarc immediately goes back to trolling.
There may be no libertarian means to force equal starting points for everyone's life, but there are plenty of libertarian solutions that get rid of all kinds of incentives that perpetuate those situations.
Unless you believe that blacks are inherently more predisposed to criminality, there must be some reasons for the differences, no? Even if there are no clear solutions, it's good to understand reasons for things.
He could blame Ronald McDonald. Those fries are so scrumptious. Someone should nom nom nom nominate a committee to investigate the yumminess that causes fat Jeff to eat at McDonalds thus making him so fat.
You might be a fat Jeff if when you are at the Burger King drive through you are on your phone placing an order at Pizza Hut.
So you hypothesize that people act differently based on race. Why is that so, in your view?
Can you make this idiotic metaphor to be about bears in trunks?
You have plenty of real world data, but your premise requires you to imagine a situation to try to set up an outcome to bolster your argument. Crimes are not rare events. Convictions are not rare events. Yet you run from data as it doesn't support your premises.
The second man is, from an outside objective stance, innocent, regardless of his morality.
The first guy, even if his convictions told him not to steal but he did out of weakness, is guilty despite his otherwise moral philosophy.
The crime was a choice. The internal juatifications for or against have literally no bearing on whether or not each if these men harmed an innocent. The why does not matter save the wronged grants pitty and forgiveness. But the wronged are owned justice no matter the reason for the theft.
Thus... you completely missed the point in an attempt to hand wave away, well, the point.
Because the data says so.
They have both also stated it sucjed Rittenhouse was not charged w self defense. So why the fuck are they even in a thread about self defense. Both applaud the shooting of an unarmed protestor. Both approve a year if solitary confinement for non violent actors. And they call themselves libertarian. It is insane.
And both mute everyone that disagrees with them or points out their blatant hypocrisy to live in their leftist bubble.
Both believe if they are slightly less authoritarian than the average leftist it makes them the perfect center. The problem being they both live in deep blue states so the average leftist there is left of the center. The same problem is of the writers here.
You keep saying that, yet no one has ever come up with a single example of me saying something in support of progressivism.
Then explain precisely what you mean by "disparate racial conduct."
I think he means “they act different.”
So what is your answer to the "why" question? That is the heart of my inquiry.
I think democrats and progressives convince poor people that capitalism is a rigged game that they can’t win, so they violate the law in an attempt to circumvent the predicted outcome. Which is tragic, really: why bother going through all the trouble to give everyone free education, and then tell them they can’t accomplish anything anyway?
It’s basically a recipe for bitterness and misery. And violent crime.
And to answer my own question:
You give everyone a free education to support the teachers’ union and get their votes.
You tell everyone it’s a rigged game they can’t win so they think voting for you is their only choice.
It’s sacrificing society for political concerns.
It’s also quite a tell that the people who hate public choice theory love critical race theory, which is counter-intuitive if you assume those people are genuinely pursuing systemic causes to problems.
What even scarier is that with CRT, they’re trying to turn the free public education into an indoctrination and helplessness.
So, instead of a mixed message, they get a consistently repressive one.
It’s like what someone would come up with if they wanted to ruin society.
You see the exact decline in moral standards and enhanced crime rates from minorities with the advent of programs to support single parent households in the 50s. The largest correlator with crime and poverty is still 1 vs 2 parent households. It isn't white culture driving black culture to participate in single parent households. But Jeff is ignorant to actual data.
The point of my analogy, is that both men WOULD make the SAME choice to steal, but only one of them actually had their beliefs tested, so only one of them had their moral beliefs REVEALED. It doesn't make the second man more moral just that he never was in the position to steal.
Must be structural racism.
They do not want to take a stance on anything, because they do not really understand any of the issues, and do not want to be excluded from any camp by virtue of their opinions on pivotal political matters.
More like we libertarians take principled stances on issues, and we don't want to be included in political camps because partisans value principals while having no use for principles.
You really have no idea of what libertarians believe.
Calling people names and smugly declaring victory. Thanks for proving my point.
I'm sorry Sarc, what part is principled by claiming it sucked someone committing self defense wasn't charged with manslaughter?
You cannot debate. You cannot argue.
It takes two. When the people I attempt to debate with call me names instead of debating, that's them not me.
There are some crazy characters commenting here but the fact that you are almost universally reviled by posters of nearly every political persuasion should be a giant red flag, sarc.
I'm reviled by conservative trolls who respond to libertarians by calling them names and accusing them of being leftists. That's them, not me.
GG, there's only one person in these comments who runs socks. That's Tulpa. He even brags about it at times.
Everyone except you and the conservative trolls knows this.
Sarc, that’s YOU. You are NOT a libertarian and do not understand libertarian beliefs. You’re just a broken, drunk leftist.
Hm. Interesting thought.
Apply this logic to rape.
No, but thanks for playing.
Interesting thought.
This right here is evidence that sarcasmic is not capable of honest discourse.
He is either reflexively supporting Jeffy's running interference for the Marxists promoting CRT or he genuinely believes that a ridiculously contrived argument that is without merit is 'interesting' as long as it is conveyed with sufficient passion.
Where SQLFKR spews shit all over himself and those he interacts with, Sarc plants his turds neatly for other to step in. It is just as destructive to honest discourse and far more intrinsically evil.
He is either reflexively supporting Jeffy's running interference for the Marxists promoting CRT or he genuinely believes that a ridiculously contrived argument that is without merit is 'interesting' as long as it is conveyed with sufficient passion.
Wow.
I simply thought about what I may have done had I grown up under different circumstances.
You thought I was promoting CRT? What?
You're smoking some bad weed. Try something different.
You thought I was promoting CRT? What?
That's not what I wrote.
"He is either reflexively supporting Jeffy's running interference for the Marxists promoting CRT or he genuinely believes that a ridiculously contrived argument that is without merit is 'interesting' as long as it is conveyed with sufficient passion."
Still not sure which, although it could be both. Regardless, a valiant attempt at deflecting the criticism.
I simply thought about what I may have done had I grown up under different circumstances.
Jeffy's plagiarism of the plot of Les Misérables, which was set in early 19th century post-Napoleonic France, made you pause to consider your life in 21st century America? To be clear, that comes across even less genuine than the original comment.
Like I said. Neither you nor anyone else has come up with a single comment of mine supporting progressives. Not a one. Yet you truly believe I support the left. All I can conclude is that you see politics as binary. Left or right. So someone who mocks conservatives must be a leftist, even if they never said anything in support of the left in their entire life, because that's the only possible explanation for mocking the far right.
LOL. Sarc truly believes he has never said anything in support while just asking questions to lead one to progressive answers. Even when given the exact situation and argument he is making in the same thread, he denies it.
Then he claims mocking conservatives doesn't make one a leftist, yet has used the same exact argument above to declare anyone attacking the left is an evil conservative.
Hypocrite all around.
You said:
That looked to me like an argument that someone's environment plays no role in their life.
So I posed a question about a person's environment possibly playing a role in their life.
Your answer is to call me names.
You said that criminality is no accident, but is instead a deliberate choice.
People don't choose where they are born. They don't choose their families. They don't choose how they are raised. That's all accidental from their point of view.
So if criminality is no accident, that implies that nurture has no influence.
If I am wrong then perhaps you are being unclear.
Why don't you be a dear and tell me how I'm misinterpreting your words instead of dodging my question by implying that I'm stupid (indirectly calling me names).
You deliberately transmogrify other people's statements into an unrecognizable strawman, argue against the strawman, insist that the strawman argument you are dissecting is the real argument being made, ignore people when they point out that you are burning a strawman, refuse to admit that the strawman statement is something you have concocted, and then you get hissy when people refuse to play your game.
No, that's what JesseAZ does.
I said that perhaps your unclear and I'm misinterpreting your words, and asked for clarification (which you refuse to do). That's the exact opposite of what you accused me of doing.
Talk about deliberately transmogrifying other my statements into an unrecognizable strawman, arguing against the strawman, insisting that the strawman argument you are dissecting is the real argument being made....
Wow. Just. Wow.
Sarc, me posting with evidence prior arguments you've made but forget about is not what GG is saying dumbass.
That might have been insulting if any of it was true, but it's not.
You cannot argue logically. You respond to logic with name calling.
You cannot answer questions. You respond to questions with name calling.
You cannot elaborate on your points. You respond to requests with name calling.
You cannot respond to what people actually say. You attack strawmen and call people names.
In short, all you do is call people names.
I'm putting you back on mute along with the three stooges (JesseAZ, Mother's Lament, and R Mac). You're in good company. Their idea of a debate is calling people names as well.
Sarc is such a faggy little bitch.
GG, what he said is pretty much an argument frequently used by libertarians and others to argue against a welfare state.
Call me more names. Keep proving my point for me. I really appreciate it.
Jeff has to some day realize how weak his arguments are when every single time he has to resort to a mythical situation he has to invent to back his assertions right?
A story: in 2015 then Chicago mayor Emanuel and police superintendent Snyder attempted to ratchet up penalties for repeat gun violence offenders. Snyder quickly observed that while gang members in places like Boston typically tried to ditch their guns when being pursued, those in Chicago did not and held them until being caught and arrested. This was because they had more to fear from their gangs for losing their guns than from the police. One notorious career criminal was reported to have been caught and released some 47 times for illegal firearm possession until he was finally shot down be another career criminal.
So they proposed stiffer penalties for repeat gun crimes; however a "coalition of Black Illinois lawmakers obstructed this, claiming it was simply a "recipe to lock of more Blacks and Latinos."
Chicago Tribune, October, 2015
One of these days you might respond to something I actually said instead of making something up and responding to that.
Or someone who sells some drugs to a willing buyer and happens to be carrying a gun for self defense. Gun charges can be and often are bullshit add-ons to enhance potential penalties.
You would have to be someone who hasn't drank and shat their life and credibility down the drain for something like that to happen.
I've known more than a few black folks who professed to believe exactly that.
What am I supposed to call them? Niggers?
Alright. Whatever you say. I've got no reason to lie, but you've got every reason to call me a liar. Because then you can ignore what I said and call me names. Seems to be your typical style of debate. You ignore what I say, refuse to answer simple questions, act like you've invalidated what I said by calling me names, and then act all smug.
Only one of us is full of shit. And it isn't me.
Me actually being a liar is not one of them.
You've got no evidence of me being a liar, you've got no evidence of me being a leftist, and you've got no evidence of me running socks.
Yet you devoutly believe all of those things, and call me a liar when I disagree.
Then you get all pissy and call me names.
That's you describing yourself.
You lie and defend the left all the time. The only ones here who don't agree is you and your cohort of other ignorant leftists like jeff.
GG, he’s never going to give up the con, ever. He might even have convinced himself of his lies.
And what are we to conclude of the man who chose to steal? He is a criminal. He has the mens rea of a criminal. He chose to break the law. It is easy for those on the outside looking in to simply state "Why, he should not choose to be a criminal. If he only lived an upstanding moral life like the rest of us, he wouldn't be a criminal and he could pull himself up by his bootstraps to a life of greater prosperity." MY POINT, however, is that one's viable choices are constrained by one's circumstances. All those people living in the inner cities choosing to be criminals, are they choosing to be criminals because "there's something wrong with them"? Are they psychopaths? Is it because they "live in a culture that glorifies criminality"? Is it because they are different and weird and antisocial in some way? OR, is it because they have basically the same moral identities as anyone else does, but based on their particular circumstances, they are forced to make decisions that we don't have to make? If we were in their shoes, would we, for better or for worse, make about the same types of choices that they make? Could it be that we only observe greater criminal activity in certain groups compared to others not because "there's something wrong with them", but because they are the ones forced to make different and difficult choices that we don't have to make?
That is my point.
That is my point.
Your point is on top of your head. Your contrived example is ridiculously oversimplistic. There are churches and other organizations in every city in the country where you can get food for your kids immediately and programs for food stamps if you can wait. The disproportionate number of minority criminals are not guilty of stealing food.
Want a good example? Nobody forced George Floyd to point a gun at a pregnant woman he and his cohorts were robbing. He chose to do that and deserved to be punished for it. He later chose to take fentanyl while sick with COVID and attempted to pass fake currency. He had direct agency over every action that led up to a confrontational police interaction that he did not survive. The cop who kneeled on him was then punished for his bad choice.
An event that has been heralded as the ultimate example of structural racism is actually a perfect illustration of how society is supposed to work. People facing consequences for making ignorant/stupid/evil choices.
If you decide it's OK to steal to feed your family, then you have decided to accept the consequences of stealing because your family is more important to you than staying out of jail.
In my experience, commenters who triumphantly declared I TOTALLY PWNED YOU, MAN, are purely arguing by assertion.
Your argumentation style is that you are coy, evasive, and defensive. Your strategy is akin to a football team trying to "draw the other team offsides". It is duplicitous and disingenuous. But, you do you. Sure, you TOTALLY PWNED ME when you don't answer questions, act evasive, give two-word responses to complex questions, and then write lengthy paragraphs about how I'm supposedly such an idiot.
Friends. Not black friends.
Sure, you TOTALLY PWNED ME when you don't answer questions, act evasive, give two-word responses to complex questions, and then write lengthy paragraphs about how I'm supposedly such an idiot.
That does seem to be his style.
Can you make this idiotic metaphor to be about bears in trunks?
Nice callback! Jeffy gets called out again and again for ridiculously contrived examples in arguments, and yet he soldiers on.
People rip new assholes out of strawmen with jeff's name stitched into the hat, but I rarely see anyone rip into something he actually said.
Just like nobody rips me a new one without resorting to strawman attacks, tu quoque, and other fallacies that you (like the leftists you hate) consider to be effective arguments.
But becoming cultural marxists themselves is a net loss of liberty advocates, so more a revelation than a loss with th he current writers.
It’s a real testament to Jeffy’s indefatigable dishonesty.
How is rape going to keep a family fed and alive?
Jeffy isn’t a fan of putting down the fork. However, he is a BIG fan of Haagen Dazs.
Races don't commit crimes at all. People do. The whole problem is looking at people as representatives of their races.
I don't think they are all cultural Marxists.
It’s a given that you get ‘pwned’ in every debate. You employ the same discredited arguments ad nauseum. Even though all your arguments are repetitious you crushed.
Stereotypes tend to contain a grain of truth.
That's what I was saying. So you better change your tune else be accused of agreeing with me.
That's not allowed!
GG: Do you realize what you just said? That it's OK to lock people up for many more years because it's _possible_ that their intentions weren't pure?
^^^^^^!!!!!
What is this 'sins of the father' bullshit? Progressivism is a sick cult that cannot accept deviations from its totalitarian utopia pipe dream.
That's because citing facts or reason at you is like pouring water into a cemented sponge, SQRLSY.