Ukraine Needs Clear Communication, Not Weapons, From the U.S.
Supplying the Ukrainian army hasn’t stopped Putin.

With approximately 100,000 Russian forces stationed near Ukraine's eastern border and reports that Moscow might be planning an incursion as soon as next month, a casual observer can be forgiven for thinking war in Eastern Europe is just around the corner. U.S. officials are taking the threats of a Russian operation extremely seriously.
A session between U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov last week did little to calm bilateral tensions over Ukraine. Neither did a two-hour video conference on Tuesday between President Joe Biden and Russian President Vladimir Putin, which at first glance appeared to be more of an airing of grievances than a conflict-resolution strategy session. At present, the U.S. and Russian positions on Ukraine are nearly irreconcilable, even as both pay lip service to a diplomatic process that has made little progress beyond a shaky ceasefire. Putin wants assurances Ukraine will not be swallowed up in the Western orbit, insisting on "legal guarantees" to this effect (a point he reiterated during his video call with President Joe Biden on December 7). Washington, meanwhile, demands Russia withdraw its forces from Ukrainian territory, sever support to the separatists in the Donbas, and hand back full control of the Ukrainian border to Kyiv.
In Washington and the West more broadly, the inclination is to get tougher with Moscow over the latest act of Russian brinkmanship and buttress Ukraine's defense. The argument is as follows: if the West is unwilling to read Putin the riot act or enact even stronger sanctions against the Russian economy to ward off another invasion, then it's catering to the Kremlin's worst instincts. The Biden administration appears to be following the same logic; the White House is discussing sending additional lethal military equipment to the Ukrainian army, which would come on top of the $2.5 billion in U.S. security assistance already provided to Kyiv since 2014. "I will look you in the eye and tell you, as President Biden looked President Putin in the eye and told him today, that things we did not do in 2014 we are prepared to do now," National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan told reporters at the White House immediately after Biden's call with Putin. Those options include leaning on Germany to cancel the Nord Stream II natural gas pipeline in the event Russian forces begin pouring across the border.
Those assumptions, however, simply don't square with Moscow's behavior over the past seven years. U.S. weapons shipments to Kyiv have done nothing whatsoever to push Russian forces out of Ukraine or alter the Russian political leadership's calculus as it relates to the conflict. Indeed, in most cases, the Russians have simply responded to U.S. weapons shipments with weapons shipments of its own—something experts monitoring the war have warned about for years. Russian-manufactured arms continue to flow to the battlefield in Eastern Ukraine, and there is no indication this will stop anytime soon. It defies reason to believe more of the same will have different results.
If the United States genuinely cares about Ukraine, it needs a markedly different approach. That means sitting Ukrainian officials down—as Biden should do during his upcoming Thursday call with Ukrainian President Voldomyr Zelensky—and giving them some tough love about what the U.S. is and isn't willing to do. Three messages come to mind.
First, under no circumstances will U.S. combat forces deploy to Ukraine for the purposes of deterring a conventional Russian invasion. As much as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy wishes otherwise, Ukraine is not a NATO member entitled to the privilege of NATO (and U.S.) protection, and it's highly unlikely Kyiv will be afforded this status in the foreseeable future. In fact, bringing Ukraine into NATO shouldn't even be considered, for it would put U.S., NATO, and Russian troops into immediate conflict, risk spoiling whatever opportunities the West has to stabilize its relationship with a nuclear-armed Russia, and add yet one more security dependent on Washington's shoulders for no benefit.
Second, U.S. officials must make it abundantly clear to Kyiv that further fighting with Russia or the separatists is not an appealing option. While the prospect of a renewed Ukrainian military offensive in the Donbas is likely overstated by Russian officials, the Zelenskyy administration should think twice before even putting such an idea on the table. While the Ukrainian military is more professional, battle-tested, and experienced today than it was in 2014 when Moscow annexed the Crimean Peninsula, Kyiv is still the weakest party in this dispute. The fact that Ukraine could cause significant damage to the separatists is largely immaterial, for Russia would never allow the separatists to be defeated militarily. Ukraine will not win a conventional war against Russia, which spends ten times what Kyiv does on its military. More fighting will likely result in more territorial losses for Ukraine.
Third and finally, the U.S. should tell Kyiv to redouble efforts toward realizing a comprehensive diplomatic settlement with Moscow and the separatists, something Zelenskyy has largely sidestepped except for a few prisoner exchanges in the beginning of his tenure. That Zelenskyy recently acknowledged direct talks with Russia are unavoidable is a good first step and a hint the Ukrainian government may be accepting the unpleasant reality it finds itself in. But Ukrainian officials will need to go beyond offering talks, which means getting down to the nitty-gritty and actually implementing the admittedly unpopular Minsk II accords—a diplomatic package that trades a full Russian troop withdrawal and the handover of Ukraine's eastern border back to Kyiv in exchange for a measure of political autonomy for the Donbas.
None of this will be easy, and a peaceful ending to the war in Eastern Ukraine will take determination, patience, and sincerity from every party with a stake in the outcome—including Russia and its proxies in the Donbas. If Moscow insists on a conventional invasion, the political space in Ukraine to meet the Russians half-way on a diplomatic settlement will be somewhere between small to nonexistent.
But the U.S. can do its part by incentivizing Kyiv to operate through the prism of reality rather than fantasy. Giving Ukraine the false hope of unconditional U.S. backing does the country no favors.
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The US, NATO, the EU and the UN already weighed in on Kosovo voting to leave Serbia. That opened the door for pro-Russian regions in Ukraine (Crimea, Donbas/Donetsk) to proceed accordingly.
Moscow expects Kiev to comply with the Minsk treaty, which Ukraine has been reluctant to do.
Russia intends to stop delivering coal to Ukraine; it may be a cold winter with power outages.
The Kremlin is flying nuclear warhead capable bombers in the region and has massed army groups on the border. They updated their tactics since Georgia with Syria being a trial run. Reportedly, Crimea was a test ground for that too.
How will the west respond to this full court press?
By continuing to tell you and your dictator Putin not to invade Russia's neighbors, and that appropriate sanctions follow any such aggression.
All Putin has to do is shut down the nat gas lines, and the EU freezes in winter. They cave the next day.
My dictator’s name is Biden (Pootin), not VVP. Thanks for lying again. You rreally have a penchant for fucking up the truth in your posts.
I can't wait until rreally is a decaying corpse
I know, Russian troll, this is all the West's fault for stopping genocide in Serbia. We opened the door to you invading all your neighbors, because Russia cares deeply about international norms.
Warrbonerr, your posts continue to be full of gross inaccuracies.
Have you been to Crimea to talk with the locals? Donbas? Kiev? Moscow? It was suggested you do this as to advance your USA Today level of knowledge. Clearly you have not.
If you want to go there to play a game of toss with the Russians using fmj projectiles, have at it. Please do so on your own dime and leave the US flag off your outfit.
Just so everyone understands, the reason why Chumby posts stupid puns everywhere else (with great promptness) and long diatribes in articles referencing Eastern Europe is because he is a paid Russian troll here to dispense PR for his dictator's territorial ambitions.
He is a liar, and it is reasonable to assume that every word he writes here is on Putin's behalf.
How much do you want to wager on this?
You're a liar, and you can't have a deal without trust.
Besides, what's your defense, you shill for Putin for free? I admit I haven't seen your pay stubs.
You rreally seemed quite confident. Maybe you gave yourself 50:1 odds? But now you are moving goalposts.
I wasn’t going to take all your money. Just some of it. It would have been a teachable moment.
Coming from a progshit, everything is Russian conspiracies. You've already worn that card out.
Other nations won't do shit, you know that. Maybe some sanctions and whiny speeches, but pols have no balls or morals.
In an interview that was more two-man sales pitch than interview last night, President Biden was asked about Putin's soul. This was obviously a prepared question given to our intrepid reporter. He said that Donald Trump had famously claimed he saw Putin's soul and reports where that Biden said that he did not have a soul .
Biden twice confirmed that he looked Putin in the eye and told him that he did not have a soul. And he reported that Putin countered,"then we understand each other."
All of you defenders of the propaganda state and the Democrat machine let that ruminate. I double dog dare you to name one time that Trump made any kind of foreign policy blunder like that one. And then came home and bragged about it! And had the media crowing about how masterful it was to tell the head of a foreign state that he has no soul.
I doubt they talked about souls. You have any evidence they did?
I hope Putin is stupid enough to allow bs to dictate his foreign policy but I doubt it.
We will see if brainless Biden can defeat soulless putin.
When Obama was picking fights with VVP, I had supported an MMA match between the two. No referee. Put it on PPV. The same could be done here.
Does the words coming directly from the senile, pony-soldier's mouth count?
Why are you asking Cyto for evidence to support Biden's/ABC News' assertion?
Because Cyto should view his sources with more skepticism. You don't seriously believe they talked about souls, do you?
Just retarded. He started off by saying it was effectively a propaganda piece. You've convinced me that people in general should be more skeptical about refraining from punching you in the face every time you speak.
I doubt Biden and Putin discussed souls. Do you think they did?
I suspect Biden was talking more about ice cream, and sniffing children’s hair.
He's an old president of a failing state. Enjoy it while you can.
Are you saying Biden's a liar?
Biden said they did. Do you doubt your party overlord?
You should too.
I’m not a democrat, so I tend to think most things they say are utter. Ironic bullshit. Because it is. But you democrats are required to obey your masters.
I'm not a democrat. But enough about me. Let's whinge about Biden.
reporter incorrect. W saw Putin's soul.
Awwww... how cute. Little lost Drumpferjugend camper wanders into a libertarian magazine site expecting to find a Klavern of the faithful. For mournful burning of crosses in homage to the politician their own insistence on girl-bullying dumped out of office, go to the National Socialist Review site.
Fuck you, you deranged bigoted moron.
Sqrlsy?
You got issues.
"During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole. These words were not driven by some short-term considerations or prompted by the current political context. It is what I have said on numerous occasions and what I firmly believe. I therefore feel it necessary to explain my position in detail and share my assessments of today's situation."
----Vladimir Putin, July 12, 2021
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181
If you read the rest of Putin's piece, Putin sees Ukraine much the way China saw Hong Kong back before the handover.
Communication is nothing. The only thing stopping Putin from taking the Ukraine are the negative consequences of doing so.
Increasing those negatives consequences for him makes a ton of sense, one of the negative consequence alternatives to our direct involvement is conventional weapon sales.
Maybe we could send military advisors. Then a few soldiers to protect those advisors. To help prevent dominoes from falling on each other.
I wouldn't advocate that. I usually approach this from a pragmatic perspective--about how the legitimate purpose of government is to protect our rights, and the legitimate purpose of foreign policy in these situations should be driven by those considerations. We should only occupy and defend Ukraine if it's in our best interests to do so--and I don't believe it's in our best interests to do so.
That being established, let's look at it from another principled perspective. I believe in the Second Amendment. I believe that private companies should be free to manufacture weapons and sell them to people like me--so that I can defend my own rights. Hell, a close reading of the Second Amendment suggests that one of the things we may need to defend ourselves from is the threat of an oppressive government.
In terms of private defense contractors selling conventional arms to the Ukraine so that they can defend themselves--with no expense to the U.S. taxpayer--I'm not sure we need to be fundamentally opposed to the people of Ukraine defending themselves from an oppressive government either. Do you believe that people should be free to bear arms to defend themselves or don't you?
They have an arms industry there. I have purchased ammunition from Ukraine. Recently saw a video (not sure when it occurred) of a Ukrainian plane bombing a civilian district in a contested area. And have read about their artillery shelling civilian areas. From the few “in the field” reports I have viewed, at least some of the time the Ukrainians were the instigators. Ostensibly in an effort to bait a Russian disparate response so the west would get more involved. Ukraine’s plan is to draw the west in.
Iirc, the US already gave Ukraine weapons. You and I paid for those. And may be held responsible for their use by the victims. There is blowback from doing this (see Afghanistan and Mujahideen for reference) and throwing good money after bad money “We gotta win,” per the Vietnam reference.
We have a checkered record going into a third world areas to impose our might. Russia is fighting for ethnic Russians on their border. The last time they did this, they sacrificed tens of millions in the struggle. It may be a shithole by some western standards, but they can strike every major city in the US. As we can there. Eastern Ukraine is not our hill to die on.
No doubt they have some conventional weapons.
Our defense contractors have even better ones for sale.
"We have a checkered record going into a third world areas to impose our might."
Did you guys read what I wrote?
"We should only occupy and defend Ukraine if it's in our best interests to do so--and I don't believe it's in our best interests to do so."
----Ken Shultz
Am I the only person who can see that there?
Going into does not necessarily mean occupy. We did not occupy Afghanistan in the 1980s, but we went in. And there were negative consequences of doing so.
Once the US commits resources to something, there is the tendency to get more involved.
While an independent, domestic Khashoggi type arms dealer may not have any real consequences for us, I don’t believe any arms transaction won’t be a State Department special that would drag us into something difficult to escape with outcomes on the table we haven’t faced in a long time.
How about a nice game of chess?
"We did not occupy Afghanistan in the 1980s, but we went in. And there were negative consequences of doing so."
Denying the Soviet Union the ability to expand without paying a terrible price is one of the main reasons why we won the Cold War. Whatever the downsides of arming the mujahedeen (as well as other groups all over the world), they should be counterbalanced by the fact that doing so helped us win a relatively peaceful collapse of the Soviet Union--without an exchange of nuclear ICBMs.
Absolutely not. They were not going to hold Afghanistan without wasting resources needed elsewhere. Q.v., the US occupation of Afghanistan. Do you want to go back? If so, will you be stationed there?
I agree it was a component of the fall of the USSR; I believe they would have had the same mess regardless of our involvement (though on a longer timeline). Cheap oil, dissatisfaction with consumer access to goods and Chernobyl were major factors to their fall. Two of those occurred without US taxpayer involvement or risking blowback.
"According to the 1993 US US Air Defense Artillery Yearbook, the Mujahideen gunners used the supplied Stingers to score approximately 269 total aircraft kills in about 340 engagements, a 79% kill probability.[28] If this report is accurate, Stingers would be responsible for over half of the 451 Soviet aircraft losses in Afghanistan.[22]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIM-92_Stinger#Soviet_War_in_Afghanistan
P.S. Al Qaeda and ISIS never presented us with a threat that was anywhere near as significant as the Soviet Union, and if we had it to do all over again, we should do it the same way.
It isn’t either/or. See above.
The Russians still have those ICBMs and you are proposing we dip our toes into the water right next to them.
Your very external, disinterested concern from bombings by evil Ukrainians is noted, paid Russian troll.
It happened. Way to dismiss it warrbonerr.
The last time Russia fought purportedly "for ethnic Russians" was in Georgia in 2008. They murder a few Georgians, install some "separatist" puppet states, and then dare the sovereign country to do something about it.
WWII was a war of self defense for Russia, but how it was conducted and resolved makes it apparent that Russia has no appreciation of the value of human life, and only marginally more as applied to its own people as compared to those unfortunates nearby.
Ethnic Russians wanting to not be a part of a western backed government followed international example to leave Ukraine. Go there and tell them your views to their faces. You know what is best for them and how they should live. I’m sure they would appreciate it. Rreally.
You’re right. The Russians took no efforts to maintain Leningrad during the German siege. Nor did they take great measures to defend Moscow. Had it not been for a western European nation invading them, none of that would have occurred. Just like a few decades before. And a century before that.
We don't have any best interests that justify getting involved in a land war in Asia.
Ukraine is in Europe.
That makes it all better.
Oh yeah, it's blue on the Risk map.
"We should only occupy and defend Ukraine if it's in our best interests to do so--and I don't believe it's in our best interests to do so."
----Ken Shultz
Reason 'libertarianism' means that borders only matter when you are selling weapons across them.
Fifty kopekers agree.
"one of the negative consequence alternatives to our direct involvement is conventional weapon sales"
Wasn't that your solution to persuading China to reign in North Korea? Arms sales to Taiwan? And arms sales to Saudi Arabia to keep Iran in line? These are not successful solutions unless you're in the arms business.
The only thing sending more weapons to Ukraine will accomplish will be more US weapons in Russians hands when Ukraine inevitably loses them.
If you read the rest of Putin's piece, Putin sees Ukraine much the way China saw Hong Kong back before the handover.
Yeah. A thug thinks you're hitting on his (ex) girlfriend or trying to steal his property and in response to him popping his knuckles and getting the kinks out of his neck you reply, "Let's talk about this!"
Kushner might be able to talk his way out of it. Biden can't even get the two ends of his own party to meet in the middle. Harris can only get them to agree to a mutual hatred of her. Maybe Biden should take her hostage and threaten to shoot her if they all can't come to some sort of agreement.
Ken, I don't see Ukraine as a vital US national interest. Do you?
This is in Europe's backyard. They need to clean up the mess in their yard.
There are likely US business interests in the energy sector. I have not looked into this much so somewhat conjecture. I recall seeing the US being the entity trying to block Nordstream 2 to provide cheap natural gas to Germany. With that said, we should mind our own business. And what happens in eastern Europe is not our business. This is a good opportunity for us to leave NATO.
Thanks for the disinterested advice, Russia.
Warrbonerr, thought you had already deployed over there to kill a commie for your mommy.
A “kinetic strike” lead by the Biden administration against Russia may not turn out the way everybody thinks.
The bunch that can’t find their ass with both hands ought to stick to what they understand best, like combating systemic racism and climate change, while continuing to funnel money into their cronies businesses. War is quite a different animal.
There’s a lot a stake when getting into a potential fucking war. I hope that serious people are providing Biden’s handlers an analysis of the potential consequences of the US loosing a conflict with Russia over this Ukraine bullshit.
I believe that we may be fucking with problems that are none of our business, and at our peril.
losing
The negative consequences of taking over Ukraine are absorbing responsibility for a corrupt shithole with no economic or strategic benefits.
Putin doesn't want Ukraine, he just also doesn't want NATO bases in Ukraine. He wants a buffer. He wants to protect the Russophile population in the east from being shelled and persecuted by Kiev.
There are ONLY negatives for regular Americans due to the Global Socialist Party's constant antagonism toward Russia.
The Western establishment is actively waging war upon their own people, yet you accept their premise about who they say is the villain here???
Surprisingly, this article seems to catch the essentials right. Since the ouster of Yanukovych, Washington and the West have been playing this ridiculous little delusion that, if they just twist the right knobs and push the right buttons, they can get Putin to accept a historically hostile alliance on Russia's Western border, cede the Sevastopol naval base and accept a significant number of ethnic and cultural Russians living under essentially, a foreign people. The bottom line is that there's no way Vladimir Putin, or any Russian leader who isn't stupid and/or insane is going to go along with that. And holding out to the Ukrainians that we can somehow or other deliver them that is only getting them and the Russian minority killed. To take it one extra step, there's no reason whatsoever, that that ultimatum is worth the blood of one Iowa farmboy or one dollar of America's treasury.
That’s a pretty accurate analysis.
The Ukrainians are not hostile to Russia. They're hostile to Putin's corruption. Putin and that gang of thieves are the problem. Ukrainians used to really like Putin but Putin got greedy and the corruption turned all the decent clear thinking patriotic Ukrainians against Putin.
Putin responded by invading their country. The Ukrainians are not fucking morons. They know what's up. Putin has burned the goodwill many times over. That's why Putin puts out that garbage bs about Russians and Ukrainians being one people. He's trying to create a fake narrative of unity. In the real world Ukrainians of course feel kinship with Russians but they know damn well Putin's game and that's what they're fighting agaisnt. They are not fighting against Russia.
I mean why would Ukrainians be hostile toward Russia? It is not like Russia starved millions of them to death or anything.
Russia didn't. A Georgian did that...
Jimmy Carter?
I suspect Putin is preparing an attack for next month, when it will be the middle of winter and his troops will be bogged down by snowstorms and impassable roads and notoriously cranky Russian machinery rendered useless by the cold. At least that's the way I'd launch a major military offensive.
On the other hand, the best way to launch an attack is just to have the Pentagon, the State Department, and the CIA flacks lie their asses off about a potential threat - it's not like there are any actual reporters on the ground covering this shit, they all just repeat whatever the fuck they're told by the government like good little brainless sheep.
On the other hand, the best way to launch an attack is just to have the Pentagon, the State Department, and the CIA flacks lie their asses off about a potential threat - it's not like there are any actual reporters on the ground covering this shit, they all just repeat whatever the fuck they're told by the government like good little brainless sheep.
Yeah. After the first paragraph I was thinking, with the Biden Administration, I'd negotiate a ceasefire until spring, extend the ceasefire agreement until 9/11/22, and then in August, proceed to kick them squarely in the testicles.
Putin is fucking over Russia here and this is what happens when a dictator takes over. They put their own interests ahead of the country's interests. This aggression is all about protecting Putin's criminal regime from the Russian people. Putin cannot afford to have a free Ukraine on the border because the Russian people will notice how much better life is in a free country and they'll eventually figure out that Putin is the real enemy of Russia. This about creating an enemy to confuse the Russian people and destroying a country trying to free itself from Putin's corruption.
Are you really that stupid? Granted, there isn't much point to Reason as a "libertarian" outlet if it insists on repeating the same lies spread by NBC and WaPo, but your neocon prejudice is exceeded by your ignorance.
In hindsight, Ukraine turning their nukes back over to Russia may not have been the best course of action.
That was the day they lost their independence.
After 4 whole decades!
Well, more like one or two years, but who cares
You want Lviv Nazis in charge of nukes? Really?
Didn't say anything about who should have them.
That's not what I said. But you knew that.
The: Really? gave you away.
For giving up their nukes, the US was supposed to protect Ukraine from Russia in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Ukraine-Nuclear-Weapons
Shorter version: Ukraine is fucked.
And I should care, why?
Didn't say you should.
Where else is someone like you going to find a wife?
The 'stans have a lot of available women eager to move to the West. The market for mail-order wives is continually shifting; initially, it was various countries in Eastern Europe, then Ukraine, and now the 'stans. Gotta keep up if wanna play.
Is Ukraine worse off now than when Herbert Hoover was filling prisons?
We should offer Russia membership into NATO and call their bluff.
Putin has offered to join NATO multiple times
That might help; he'd probably pay his dues.
Ukraine has clear communication from the USA.
That communication is "We are as committed to you as we are to Afghanistan.".
(The diplomatic version of what Dances-with-trolls said)
Ukraine is not weak!
I laugh.
Ukraine is game to you?!
"U.S. weapons shipments to Kyiv have done nothing whatsoever to push Russian forces out of Ukraine . . ."
Weapons do not act of their own accord. The Ukrainians have done nothing to retake their own territory from the "separatists".
I guess that proves the old adage that guns don't kill people, people do.
Biden could ship red SUVs there.
That's one of the purposes of Putin's troop buildup, he's trying to dissuade the Ukrainians from trying to retake their territory from his little green men. And the pivotal anti-tank weapons that the U.S. gave to Ukraine was purportedly on the basis that they *not* bring them to the front, where they would be needed to repulse the Russian army.
Doubting Ukraine's resolve is the task of Russian propaganda. Ukrainians have been and will continue to defend their country.
Crimea would like to differ.
Are the Ukrainians supposed to assault and recapture Crimea in the face of Russian air supremacy and fortified positions?
No, I think your position is a sham. Ukraine will, in any event, retake Russian occupied portions of Donetsk and Luhansk before they retake Crimea.
If the Ukrainians are gonna concede Crimea (the real prize), why are even bothering to defend them?
Shit, man, if you're gonna agitate for war, go big or go home.
" before they retake Crimea"
Ukrainians never 'took' Crimea in the first place. It was Russians who took it from the Turks in the 18th century, before Ukraine existed.
Always funny to get a two faced leftist to acceding to any kind of property rights (let alone the right of conquest).
Is your despair at the fall of the Soviet Union (and accordant Russian sympathy) currently exceeding your prohibition on punching down?
It's always funny to see a global socialist leftist accuse someone else of being a leftist, all while ignoring the left's complete 180 to hate Putin's Russia just as much as they loved the Soviet Union
Yes I noticed that too. and you know why right? First Putin is a traditionalist and supports the Church (not saying he is moral in any way) and he represents "old Russia." The left and specifically the left media/academia in the US is made up of a large number of left wingers who have Russian ancestry. Many Jewish with long memories of the "czar." It always seems to come back to the "czar" and the old world issues...
Putin is a strong nationalist who rejects the peer-pressure centric model of diplomacy the Global Socialist leadership of the west needs all to abide by to succeed.
He controls half the nuclear weapons that exist.
For these reasons he is a huge roadblock to the totalitarian global government the left seeks.
What's funny is that the British, and consequently the west's, rhetoric hasn't changed on Russia in over two centuries. It's the same narrative repeated ad nauseum.
"Is your despair at the fall of the Soviet Union "
My sympathy is with the Tatars, who've been fucked over by the Russians of every political stripe for 100s of years, long before Ukraine arrived on the scene.
They were supposed to not fucking give it up in the first place.
Equip one division with weapons and one division with advice, and see which one lasts longer.
This is a libertarian magazine (ostensibly) so we should be less concerned with "maintaining stability" or some other Realpolitik nonsense, and instead consider the appropriate response to this foreign entanglement based on libertarian principles.
Let's look at this Newsweek Author's suggestions:
* "Ukraine Needs Clear Communication, Not Weapons, From the U.S."
Telling Ukraine what they need is not, to put it mildly, our fucking business. I am pretty sure that nobody in the United States (save for Ukrainian ex-pats) knows what it is like to be facing down the armed forces of a country that spent most of last century occupying, enslaving, starving and otherwise brutalizing them. The idea that we ought to paternalistically give them a hard talking to like Dad sitting his son down to talk about a broken window is exactly the type of paternalistic claptrap that Ukraine doesn't "need".
* "First, under no circumstances will U.S. combat forces deploy to Ukraine for the purposes of deterring a conventional Russian invasion."
Sure, this is perfectly libertarian. And to the extent that Ukraine might get the wrong impression about what we are and are not willing to do, the United States should clearly signal this to Ukraine. Indeed, I was recommending earlier that the US ought to do the same to Taiwan. After the disastrous performance of our military in Afghanistan, I have zero confidence that the US could achieve any military goal in either of these theaters, even assuming it was an ostensibly libertarian goal.
But to be clear, this ought to be our goal because it is the libertarian answer for a government to defend its own people. Not because some reader of tea leaves (or an "analyst" for foreign policy heavyweight, News Week) thinks it will increase stability. I think in fact that it is less likely to improve stability, but nevertheless it is not America's job to ensure stability in the crotch of Eurasia.
* "U.S. weapons shipments to Kyiv have done nothing whatsoever to push Russian forces out of Ukraine or alter the Russian political leadership's calculus as it relates to the conflict."
We should not be giving weapons to Ukraine (and it is not clear that we *have* given them, vs sold them) but at the same time, Ukraine has a right to self defense and our private military contractors have a right to contract with Ukraine to provide those goods and services that UKRAINE feels it needs for self defense. There is nothing libertarian about prohibiting a person from buying a gun to defend themselves.
* "Second, U.S. officials must make it abundantly clear to Kyiv that further fighting with Russia or the separatists is not an appealing option."
How is it that the US is going to do this, exactly? Are we privy to facts on the ground that the Ukrainians are not? Do we have intelligence to suggest this? The simple fact is that the author is suggesting that- for pragmatic reasons- Ukraine should give up its right to self defense.
The third suggestion is the same: "Make a deal with Russia."
The US has no compelling interest to do any of those things. Our job is to give Ukraine unambiguous confirmation that we will not interfere no matter what happens in the region. And from there we have no other interest. Studying the situation, sending our analysts, advising the government on political concerns and all that nonsense merely perpetuates our involvement in that backwater.
When Russia first invaded the Ukraine, The Atlantic Council's first response was to say that there was zero american interest in getting involved- just as we declined to get involved in their dust up with the country of Georgia. Russia is asshole, of course, but it isn't our business.
But instead the US funneled billions into that area in assistance. And then those billions were captured by oligarchs who, while bribing sitting presidents, paid for grants and fellowships at The Atlantic Council. And surprise, the Atlantic Council is now very interested in us spending lots of time in the region to study, de-escalate and "stabilize"- usually with lots and lots of US money.
Let Ukraine figure out what Ukraine needs. And let's us dust off and pretend we nuked the site from orbit.
Coming from the right place, but so naive.
The League of Nations narcotics cartel was a pitiful failure. The United Nations--now dominated by looter kleptocracies--is likewise futile and counterproductive. Now would be a good time to come to our senses and get out of the mess. Great Britain bailed out of the sinking EU and is happier for having the gumption to reclaim independence. Since when is American independence a bad thing?
"Since when is American independence a bad thing?"
November 2020.
Taiwan has not been frogmarched into Chinese communism precisely because her nuclear weapons make such aggression foolish. By freeing America from entanglements with European looter states we could again sell all manner of weapons for cash. The Second Amendment protects our nuclear arsenal from enemies within. Freedom of production and trade could restore our ability to help those who help themselves to resist bullying Czarist monarchies.
Defense Priorities is a think tank whose funding is uniformly laundered by the largest banks. See, e.g. https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/defense-priorities-foundation,810714113/
They consistently take the most pro-Russian position that is within the Overton Window in the West at a given time.
Probably Russian funded, and certainly not to be trusted.
The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!
Look, man, if you're going to write stuff like this, just be honest and say, "Ukraine should give in to Russian nationalist demands and agree to Anschluss."
The Russian nationalist objection to Ukraine has nothing to do with anything an independent Ukraine can settle at a negotiating table, because their objection is that an independent Ukraine exists. They consider Ukrainians to be part of the Russian nation, and they aren't going to voluntarily agree, in the long run, to anything short of the gathering of the Little Russians back into the All-Russian Nation along with the Great Russians. The only thing that will stop the project is military force, the only thing that can make the costs high enough to deter them from their desires.
And while I see no reason to commit US military force to the task, I also see no reason why we shouldn't allow our arms manufacturers to sell the Ukrainians tools to allow them to try to defend themselves from annexation by Russia by military force. And the fact that we made implicit promises about Ukrainian territorial integrity as part of the denuclearization agreement in 1994 is all the more reason to allow arms sales.
"And the fact that we made implicit promises about Ukrainian territorial integrity as part of the denuclearization agreement in 1994 is all the more reason to allow arms sales."
I don't see how selling nuclear or any other weapons to Ukraine will bring Crimea or Donetsk back into the fold. A large and nuclear equipped Peoples' Liberation Army doesn't deter separatists in China's far west, Tibet and Xinjiang. Why should it work in Eastern Europe?
I don't see
You can stop there. We all know you don't understand. The breadth and depth of things you don't understand is inexhaustible. You don't have to go through it all to convince us.
Neither nuclear weapons nor conventional weapons are enough to dissuade Russians or Ukraine's separatists. This is dishonest and cowardly ploy to influence local conflicts without putting any skin in the game. You won't deny it, but engage in childish insults and bluster.
Yes, people who don't live in reality (where Russian soldiers, not local separatists, seized Crimea for Russia) generally don't understand much.
Isn't Crimea Russian anyway? Who cares? How would we like Russian troops in Mexico or pushing for us to give Cali back to Mexico. Seriously..this isn't our business...
"where Russian soldiers, not local separatists, seized Crimea for Russia"
An important point. It was Russian soldiers who fought and died while seizing Crimea from the Turks in the 18th century. Not Ukraine which didn't exist at the time.
The Russophile objections to Ukraine had at first to do with concentrating power in Kiev, cutting off trade trade w/Russia, and outlawing the Russian language within Ukraine.
Now their primary objections to Kiev are getting their homes shelled and fear of massacres once the Euromaidan paramilitaries are let loose upon their neighborhoods.
Yes, the technique of deliberately using ethnic minorities to destabilize neighbors, then intervening in the neighbor when it tries to counteract the destabilization, is a well-established method of justifying imperial conquest.
Similarly well-established is the propaganda technique of carefully picking one specific date in the middle of a long struggle and declaring it to be when things "started". As if Russian nationalists haven't been objecting to the existence of Ukraine since the announcement that the Soviet Union was dissolving. Or that it hasn't been a consistent policy of the Russians for three decades to control the governments of the "near abroad". Or that Russian imperialists have been denying the very existence of a Ukrainian ethnic identity or language since the 19th century.
No denial of the hostility and ill intent of Kiev, just deflection to the all important "Russia=evil" narrative.
Why? What if Russia supplied advanced weapons to Mexico to take back Texas...again not our business. We shouldn't be selling weapons to anyone. Our largest exports today are weapons and printed dollars...a sad comment on a once great Republic
On what basis could any libertarian argue that private US businesses shouldn't be allowed by the federal government to sell their manufactures to the internationally-recognized government of Ukraine?
Selling weapons is fine, but what fucking money does Ukraine have to buy them?
It's the money laundering grift progressives have used for decades - give the corrupt regime money from western taxpayers to pay MIC connections, and every corrupt piece of shit in the chain gets to skim from the public coffers.
Where in the US is Ukraine located?
In the minds of neocon Dick Cheney types.
I think it's near Georgia.
Next to Georgia.
It’s actually in Canada.
As the Ukrainian army squares off against ultra-right and neo-Nazi militias in the west and violence against ethnic Russians continues in the east, the obvious folly of the Obama administration’s Ukraine policy has come into focus even for many who tried to ignore the facts, or what you might call “the mess that Victoria Nuland made.”
Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs “Toria” Nuland was the “mastermind” behind the Feb. 22, 2014 “regime change” in Ukraine, plotting the overthrow of the democratically elected government of President Viktor Yanukovych while convincing the ever-gullible U.S. mainstream media that the coup wasn’t really a coup but a victory for “democracy.”
This is the same Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland, right?
No, this is the abstract, Victoria Nuland. The personified CIA. The cause of, and at whose feet blame for all of Russia's ills is to be laid.
Basically, only the most obvious Russian trolls bring her up. She was some middle management diplomatic functionary who praised and expressed support for the Maidan revolution in Ukraine while it was happening. To the Russian "mind," it's proof that all of those Ukrainians protesting were American spies, and the Little Russians are really just waiting for their gunpoint liberation from their elected government from their brother Russians.
I am hardly a Russian troll. My point was Obama, H. Clinton, J. McCain and Nuland's intervention was the cause of Ukraine's problems and also the reason Russia was able to invade and capture the Crimea and return it to Russia. The US should be non-interventionist as the US, and especially the liberals like Obama and Clinton and hawks like McCain always screw up. Their intervention is the still the root cause of today's problems . The Don basin's resources will always be coveted by the east, who does not want them going to the west. A pro Russian government would have done that, and remained independent.
excuse me, "Donbas basin" I cut that short.
So your position is that Ukraine simply needed to always have a pro-Russian government. As long as Ukraine is not free and democratic, everything's a-ok.
That's Putin's position. In addition to being an obvious falsehood, given Russia's abuse of even Russian puppet governments in Ukraine, it condemns over 40 million people to slavery.
Are you sure you're not a Russian troll?
It's an interesting concept. Give Russia access to all our latest weapons, not that they or China don't have access to the ones we let the Taliban have.
That would be the libertarian moment for sure.
Why is this a concern of the US again? We didn't arm or threaten to send in troops in Hungary in 56 or Czech in 68. It is a regional issue and not our business at all. Nato should have been abolished at the end of the cold war. Russian tanks are not getting to the Rhine..hell most of them would break down before they got through the Ukraine. And our putting missiles in Poland or Romania (yes they are defensive but honestly could easily be used offensively) is the Jupiter missiles in Turkey all over again. Why has our foreign policy elites obsessed with Russia. I get many of them have Russian or the old USSR ancestry but just because you have a grudge against the czar...leave America out of this crap. Neocons are traitors..deport them all please..
Yes I noticed that too. and you know why right? First Putin is a traditionalist and supports the Church (not saying he is moral in any way) and he represents "old Russia." The left and specifically the left media/academia in the US is made up of a large number of left wingers who have Russian ancestry. Many Jewish with long memories of the "czar." It always seems to come back to the "czar" and the old world issues...
Our current president Brandon has been wrong with nearly 100% of every foreign policy issue during his excessive time in elected office. I'm not sure, but president Brandon has become very rich even though his salary would not warrant the amount of growth.
Reminder
https://twitter.com/davereaboi/status/1468942798963499010?t=THAqkqfK0H_bjHBRQdscLw&s=19
Our government faked a scandal in order to convince half of Americans that the nation was being run by a hostile foreign power. There has never been a more dangerous purposeful campaign to create this level of disunion.
Sadly, Daniel DePetris is correct here. We are not about to enter into a hot war with Russia over Ukraine and more that we would start a hot war with China over Taiwan. Diplomacy is the only alternative and that means getting the best you can get under the circumstances. If you are the small guy next to the big guy it means compromising more than you might like.
Well, we have clear communication now. Brandon's regime is pushing Ukraine to cede it's border region to Russia to appease Putin. For now.
I guess the gas line wasn't enough for Joe to get a bonus, but Crimea river over it. Putin will just cut a Czech.
We have Ukrainians to thank for multiculturalism.
Because of our ongoing commitments to the mutual defense of NATO members, we have a commitment to other NATO members who have been in Russia's sites before and would be again if taking them back within Russia's boundaries proved to be as easy as waltzing into Ukraine without much resistance or a fight. The two most obvious members that are under perpetual threat are Estonia and Poland--both of whom are also our staunchest NATO allies for self-interested reasons. We are already committed to defending Estonia and Poland, and if we don't want it to be necessary for us to make good on those commitments, it would behoove us to see that Putin's annexation of Ukraine was unpleasant for Putin.
P.S. Please note my comment above. It is not in our best interests to occupy and defend Ukraine just like it wasn't in our best interests to occupy Vietnam.
Russian aggression moves Europe closer to us. We will do well whether Putin escalates the war or not. Ukraine used to be Putin's ally. The people liked Putin. Now they hate him and buy weapons from us. Putin is spinning. This threatimg routine is a sign of weakness. If Putin invades Europe will need us more than ever at least in a long time.
It's been a cesspool because that was how Putin wanted it. This threat of an invasion is a sign that Ukraine is cleaning up the corruption. It's why Putin is freaking out. He lost Ukraine.
The problem is, as far as I can tell, NATO has been the aggressor here. The Ukrainian nationalists backed by NATO scrapped their power-sharing agreement with (Putin-aligned) Yanukovych. And they've essentially taken a hard line against the separatists. Putin's offered up multiple alternatives (e.g. Finlandization, a federal arrangement in which the eastern regions have substantial autonomy) and essentially been shot down on all of them. Even now, the U.S. and NATO are demanding "Russia withdraw its forces from Ukrainian territory, sever support to the separatists in the Donbas, and hand back full control of the Ukrainian border to Kyiv".
NATO is a defensive agreement. Aggression from a NATO member probably gets them kicked out of the alliance. You're been drinking the Russian vodka.
And how dare those Ukrainians take a hard line against the separatists (aka, Russian soldiers "on leave") who seek to occupy their territory. How dare we support the territorial integrity of Ukraine, that clearly makes us aggressors!
Not the invading Russian army.
Is anything I said inaccurate? Is supporting the overthrow of a country's allies not aggression?
There is no mechanism to remove a member of NATO. This was covered when the democrats wanted to start a war with Turkey over the Kurds a few years ago.
Now the democrats, and neocon faction of republicans have a war boner for Russia.
Hunter Biden approves.
Or it is a cess pool because eastern europe has a long, long, long history of being corrupt cess pools.
We don't need Russia or the US to blame for this. Ukraine gets the leaders that most other eastern bloc countries get. To the extent that much of this is due to Soviet meddling in the past that destroyed liberal institutions, it may make sense to give some side-eyes to Putin. But for fucks sake, it has been 30 years. It is high time these assholes embrace their autonomy as sentient beings and rise above their own historical past. And the US isn't going to make them do it. Indeed, our billions of dollars in graft merely makes it more likely.
It wasn't a coup. You're spreading disinformation.
KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove President Viktor Yanukovich after three months of street protests, while his arch-rival Yulia Tymoshenko hailed opposition demonstrators as “heroes” in an emotional speech in Kiev after she was released from jail.
technologies like nonfungible
Yanukovich abandoned the capital to the opposition on Saturday and denounced what he described as a coup after several days of bloodshed this week that claimed 82 lives.
Supporters cheered former prime minister Tymoshenko as she left the hospital where she had been held. When she spoke later in Kiev, her reception was mixed.
Her release marks a radical transformation in the former Soviet republic of 46 million people. Removal of the pro-Russian Yanukovich should pull Ukraine away from Moscow’s orbit and closer to Europe.
It is also a reversal for Russian President Vladimir Putin’s dream of recreating as much as possible of the Soviet Union in a new Eurasian Union. Moscow had counted on Yanukovich to deliver Ukraine as a central member.
Members of the Ukrainian parliament, who abandoned Yanukovich after this week’s bloodshed, applauded and sang the national anthem after declaring him constitutionally unable to carry out his duties. An early election was set for May 25.
“This is a political knockout,” opposition leader and retired world boxing champion Vitaly Klitschko told reporters.
In a television interview the station said was conducted in the northeastern city of Kharkiv, Yanukovich said he would not resign or leave the country, and called decisions by parliament “illegal”.
“The events witnessed by our country and the whole world are an example of a coup d’etat,” he said, comparing it to the rise of the Nazis to power in Germany in the 1930s.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-idUSBREA1G0OU20140222
I didn't say they were, and I specifically said that we shouldn't occupy and defend them.
Did you see what else I wrote?
Putin isn’t poised to take over Europe. Our real enemy is China. Get in the fucking game.
Of course, you democrats probably would enjoy being ruled by the ChiComs.
Hunter Biden largely approves of whores and any narcotic he can get his junkie hands on.
Your own article cites the accusation of a coup.
Yes!
They're NATO members, who would be swallowed up by Putin if he could, and if we don't want to end up in a war to liberate them, it's in our best interests to see Putin's annexation dreams crushed elsewhere in eastern Europe.
And why would we want Poland and Estonia out of NATO?
Mutual defense treaties are an extremely effective, peaceful, and libertarian means of self-defense.
Because Obama and Biden let France and Germany walk all over us in NATO--especially in regards to not paying for their own national defense--is no reason for us to want to shirk our responsibilities to Estonia and Poland--who have always paid up per their treaty obligations. When everyone else in NATO except the UK was screwing us over on their own defense spending, Estonia and Poland were doing their part. We're obligated in a mutual defense treaty, and they are members in good standing.
And, I would argue, the mutual defense treaty is in our best interests--it's just that Democrat president after Democrat president letting France and Germany walk all over us isn't. That problem is easy enough to solve. You just need a president who has the balls to call them out for failing to meet their treaty obligations--and is ballsy enough to move our troops elsewhere in NATO if they don't start meeting their obligations. If Germany isn't willing to pay for their own defense because we're there, maybe we should move our troops to Poland. They'd be more than happy to have us!
P.S. After Trump started calling out NATO countries for not spending on their own defense, circa 2016, and taking advantage of the U.S. taxpayer, things changed. The Heritage Foundation found that NATO countries increased their defense budgets by around $50 billion a year between 2016 and the end of 2020.
https://www.heritage.org/defense/commentary/nato-allies-now-spend-50-billion-more-defense-2016
Because we're committed to their mutual defense, of course, doesn't mean we need to station troops there--and we should only do so IF IF IF and when it's in the best interests of the USA. As long as the Russians remain a nuclear power, they will remain a security threat to the United States, and our military will have a legitimate reason to keep countermeasures geographically close to them. We should be able to do so with a much smaller force than we have there now, and there is no reason why our troops need to be in Germany rather than somewhere else in central or eastern Europe.
" it's in our best interests to see Putin's annexation dreams crushed elsewhere in eastern Europe"
You probably won't have to worry. If Russia is going to invade Eastern European countries, they will wait until NATO is dissolved and kaput, and the former alliance members are busy with problems of their own. Until then, they will content themselves with assisting pro-Russian separatists on their perimeter.
I love how can 100% accepts the Atlantic Council narrative and applies no knowledge of the Russian mindset or logic to the stories we're told.
Fun stuff.
"And why would we want Poland and Estonia out of NATO?"
Because NATO isn't a defensive alliance, it's a lie to launder money+power from the working+middle class to the western establishment/elite.
NATO's mission is to send middle and lower class Red America kids to go die so the ruling elite can pad their pockets with a few million more dollars hidden in shithole countries like Ukraine or Montenegro.
The domino theory. It worked well when we first provided aid to south Vietnam. And it will work well again!
"You really think the Russians are going to be capable of steamrolling Poland and Estonia without taking massive causalities in the process? "
The point seems to be that Poland and Estonia are capable of buying plenty of US armaments. The Russian invasion of Eastern Europe is just part of the sales pitch.
*Ken, not can
Yikes!
NeoKen. 🙂
Well played
Ken W Shultz also works.
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