Elon Musk: Government Is 'the Biggest Corporation, With a Monopoly on Violence, Where You Have No Recourse'
Musk's finally ready to admit that government subsidies distort markets and that government actors are terrible at capital allocation.

"Say tomorrow, you get a phone call from Joe Biden," asked Wall Street Journal tech columnist Joanna Stern to Tesla CEO Elon Musk in a Monday night forum. "And he asks: What are your needs from this [$2 trillion spending] bill? How do you answer him?"
"We don't think about it at all, really," Musk said, channeling Don Draper to the tune of the audience's uneasy laughter. "It might be better if the bill doesn't pass," Musk added. "The federal budget deficit is insane…something's gotta give, you can't just spend $3 trillion more than you own every year and don't expect something bad to happen."
"With this bill, there is a lot of support for E.V.s [electric vehicles]…and it helps Tesla," Stern told Musk. So if the bill shouldn't pass, Stern asked, "what do you think the role of government should be?"
"I think the role of the government should be that of a referee, but not a player on the field," replied Musk. "Government should try to get out of the way and not impede progress." He continued:
The rules and regulations keep increasing every year. Rules and regulations are immortal, they don't die. Occasionally you see some law with a sunset provision, but really, otherwise, the vast majority of rules and regulations live forever….Eventually it just takes longer and longer and it's harder to do things. There's not really an effective garbage collection system for removing rules and regulations. And so gradually this hardens the arteries of civilization, where you're able to do less and less over time. So I think government should be trying really hard to get rid of rules and regulations that perhaps had merit at some time but don't have merit currently."
"Honestly, I would just can this whole bill. Don't pass it," Musk said forcefully.
The Build Back Better bill, which legislators in Congress are hoping to cram through this month or next, would include $12,500 tax credits for U.S.-made electric vehicles made in unionized factories, up from the $7,500 currently offered. Critics note that Musk has no reason to support the E.V. provision because Tesla factories are not unionized. But there are other good reasons for him to oppose these provisions: E.V. adoption and the creation of charging stations are plugging along just fine as is, no (market-distorting, union-favoring) government intervention needed—a point specifically made by Musk, who noted that the federal government does not pay for gas stations and does not need to build E.V. charging stations. "I'm literally saying get rid of all subsidies," clarified Musk. (It's worth noting that the charging station subsidies were included in the infrastructure bill passed last month, so the details of the two eye poppingly pricey bills are getting somewhat conflated.)
It's nice to hear Musk denouncing government intervention, but he has unquestionably benefited handsomely from government subsidies in the past, so this looks a bit like he's pulling the ladder up behind him to stymie encroaching competitors.
Musk is "the model businessman in the age of Obama," wrote The Washington Examiner's Tim Carney several years ago. "His businesses thrive on mandates, regulations, and subsidies. Tesla received a federal loan guarantee to make its plug-in cars, which are also subsidized through tax credits for buyers. SolarCity's suppliers are subsidized solar panel makers, and its customers get tax credits for getting the panels installed. SpaceX is largely a government contractor."
"Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support," according to a 2015 Los Angeles Times' investigation. "Musk and his companies' investors enjoy most of the financial upside of the government support, while taxpayers shoulder the cost." And, more recently, both SpaceX and Amazon's Project Kuiper have publicly jousted, siccing the Federal Communications Commission on the other, all while suckling at the government teat to get millions in subsidies for satellite internet projects.
Still, Musk's own suspect motivations for ending these subsidies don't make the substance of his comments less true. When taken with his other government-skeptical statements—"it does not make sense to take the job of capital allocation away from people with a demonstrated great skill in capital allocation and give it to an entity that has demonstrated very poor skill in capital allocation"—it seems like Musk may have unseated free speech–loving warlock Jack Dorsey as America's richest, staunchest government skeptic.
After all, "the government is simply the biggest corporation, with a monopoly on violence and where you have no recourse," said Musk, when asked if billionaires like him should have their wealth seized via taxation and redistributed by the federal government. Where's the lie?
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SpaceX may mostly sell to the government, but they still do it cheaper by far than NASA did with the shuttle program. And after the shuttle, NASA didn't do it at all. All the astronauts going to the ISS were flying on Russian rockets for years. So, there's that.
But solar subsidies, ev car subsidies, and the like... yeah, they are just giveaways to preferred businesses.
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Right. You need to distinguish between selling to the government and getting subsidies from the government. And when you talk about "selling to the government" there is a difference between being a "cost plus" preferred contractor like Boeing and a company like SpaceX that negotiates an overall rate.
Distinction without difference. Government cannot purchase anything without taking from taxpayers. And the taxpayers get no windfall if government purchases for less.
SpaceX may mostly sell to the government, but they still do it cheaper by far than NASA did with the shuttle program. And after the shuttle, NASA didn't do it at all. All the astronauts going to the ISS were flying on Russian rockets for years. So, there's that.
Spending it wisely, while commendable, is not a justification for theft. Especially when the justification for the theft was spending so unwise that nobody else could manage it so terribly.
True, but at that point the question is whether we ought to have a space program in the first place. I am open to having that conversation, (and would probably answer, No) but once the government has engaged in a service, whether it is launching astronauts or printing leaflets or building trains, I don't see how it is the fault of the business to sell products for those ends.
I don't blame the video game developer when my kid spends his lunch money on robux.
If only it were so easy as to just not give your kid the money.
This. By orders of magnitude.
Then you’d be complaining about not teaching kids how to handle their finances.
Ayn Rand always said if the government offers you money take it because it will never be as much as they take from you.
Well I say: "DON'T TAKE THE GOVERNMENT GREEN! GOVERNMENT GREEN IS PEEEEOPLLLLLLE!"
Saint Elon has done very well suckling at the teat of government.
Indeed.
When a rent seeker like Musk tells you government spending has gone too far out of control, its way past time to sit up and listen.
Let’s just get one thing stated up front. Elon has done more for humanity than any man ever. Jesus doesn’t hold a fucking candle to musk. And musk surprisingly isn’t evil like Sergei or Zuck.
AND he despises rhe government? And don’t forget about neuralink - he’s gonna be taking volunteers this upcoming year. Granted you gotta be a paraplegic, but he says he’s gonna end cripples. Sqrlsy may not have to kill himself.
Only time will tell if musk decides to leave this dumpster fire of a planet like all the other gods. I say we coax him with all of our tax money. He knows how to run a business better than anyone.
Jesus can't hold a candle to anyone since he doesn't exist and never existed, so that's a pretty low bar for Musk to leap.
The subsidies raise the price of the EVs by interrupting market pressure, undercutting Musk’s goal of selling Teslas to a wider audience.
But we need democratic government to check the power of morons with a lot of money who are convinced they should rule the world because they have a lot of money.
Most of these tech bruhs were warm bodies in the right place at the right time. Making lots of money is no indication whatsoever that you're educated, and every time Elon opens his mouth to talk politics, he proves it.
Yeah tony, it’s better to ruled by people who have been in power since before I was born.
You state worshiping fuck.
As long as we get to vote for them. But you'd like to do away with that, right?
Idiot.
Maybe if you want to live in a society based on submission to power, you should try Islam.
I'm one of the few people in here not asking to be the cum dumpster of some kook billionaire.
I'm endorsing democracy, friend. Maximally distributed power.
The reason most libertarians are social conservatives is because libertarianism is only liberal-face, not real liberalism. It's actually the deep need of fearful agents to be ruled by another name. Authoritarianism with lax drug laws.
I'm endorsing democracy, friend. Maximally distributed power.
You mean giving total power to individuals chosen by a popularity contest.
Is it me or is Tony the real christmas gift. The Nazi to which even the Commies and Democracies can unite against? It warms the heart, it does.
I'm not against anyone. There are people I pity because they just don't get it. But I don't hate them or wish ill upon them.
Unlike...............
We can investigate various forms of democratic government, or you can just tell me what your alternative is.
Limited constitutional republic was a great idea, until the powerful fucked it up.
By forcing those poor, innocent slaveowners to give up their entrepreneurial endeavors?
Tony is insane enough to equate not wanting an all powerful government to wanting to own humans.
You should try Islam Tony. You would still be able to get fucked by men. You would just have to be low key about it.
No, you’re just a cum dumpster to a large number of men at the local bathhouse.
Tony (shitstain) is a clear example of Ken's claims regarding troll-shits here and further, an example of Bonhoeffer's Stupid People:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc&t=2s
There was a time when I wasted time responding to that steaming pile of lefty shit while not engaging him, but now, he gets nothing.
I'd suggest shunning is the best approach to that asshole.
As our good friend OBL kindly points out, the Democrats are the cum dumpsters of the billionaire class.
Thanks Joe!
weinstein and epstein
As long as we get to vote for them.
With as many mail-in ballots as we can harvest, yes.
Who all end up doing the bidding of people with a lot of money anyway
and establishing the largest and most powerful government in human history in no way tempts them to try to gain control over it....
If only it were more powerful. I have a theoretical equal stake in the US government as every other citizen. I get absolutely no say in what some half-educated autist like Elon Musk decides to do with his vast share of the earth's resources.
Why do you have such a burning need to be ruled?
I get absolutely no say in what some half-educated autist like Elon Musk decides to do with his vast share of the earth's resources.
If it's his, why should you have a say in it? Why do you have such a burning need to rule others?
Ownership is a fiction we tell ourselves.
It really isn’t. But you’re a parasite, so you have to convince yourself of all kinds of moronic notions. You would likely starve to death in most countries.
Ownership is a fiction we tell ourselves that's enforced by governments, I hasten to add.
Ownership doesn't need to be enforced by government. I understand that you're property. I'm not.
Unless you want to personally escort your goods to market, government enforced ownership is quite useful.
I don't suppose we could have a conversation not based entirely on prepubescent fantasy. I ask a lot of a libertarian website, I know.
I get it, property is a gentleman's agreement. Nobody will dispute property claims in libertopia because everyone will be far too satisfied with all their freedom to bother with such things.
I don't suppose we could have a conversation not based entirely on prepubescent fantasy.
I don't want to know about your prepubescent fantasies.
And I'm not anti-statist. The world is not a dichotomy.
You’re incapable of intelligent discussion.
Idiot.
Yes it is. And it's a very useful fiction.
The nice thing about ownership is that it allows for capitalism, which generates massive wealth. Granted the wealth is inequitably distributed, but the guys at the bottom still do a lot better than they would otherwise.
Here's you fiction: The Will Of The People.
Your fiction is far more dangerous than mine.
But I'm a capitalist. I just don't confuse simplicity with truth. Capitalism must always be mediated, and ideally by a government of the people. Otherwise it tends to run out of control with monopoly and negative externalities and such.
Elon's statement that all subsidies should disappear is not only magnificently hypocritical, it's a sign that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. You just said it yourself. There is no capitalism without government enforcing ownership, which is a subsidy. You get free government goons to defend your claim, at my expense.
I really don't understand what you mean. Mediated? Ownership is a subsidy?
Unless we're back to you drawing no distinction between taxing to pay government employees to do a job, and taxing to transfer wealth from one person to another (who is not a government employee.)
Companies only have monopolies as long as they can do it better than anyone else. Soon as an upstart figures out something better, the monopoly falls.
Only when government uses force upon those upstarts does the monopolist have power.
I'm sure this libertarian pablum makes you feel like it means something, but it's word games.
Taxing happens by the same means regardless of what government spends the money on. It can't be legitimate and voluntary when it pays for soldiers but illegitimate force if it happens to pay for poor people's food. You're just expressing a policy preference. I don't know why you need to layer on these rules you just made up—except to obfuscate the fact that your relative policy priorities are rather monstrous.
So monopolies only last until some competition takes them down. Very nice. It's like we're defining words out of existence, which I love. Of course, the very problem of monopoly is the suppression of competition.
You're just expressing a policy preference.
No, and we've been over this. Government force is only legitimate if it would be legitimate for an individual.
Government is individuals giving up the power to use force in exchange for peace.
Is it legitimate for a person, absent government, to defend their life, liberty and property? I know you emphatically disagree, but libertarians say yes.
I've got a natural right to hurt or kill you if you try to hurt or take what is mine.
We cede that right to government so we can live more peacefully.
People like you think that in a state of nature it's perfectly fine to rob your neighbor as long as you're bigger and meaner. So naturally you want government to do that for you. Might makes right.
You call it policy. I call it morality.
"Is it legitimate for a person, absent government, to defend their life, liberty and property?"
It's also legitimate to eat babies in such a scenario. What do you mean is it legitimate? Absent government, people will tend to do what they want to do within the limitations that are placed on them by the roving rape gangs.
"You call it policy. I call it morality."
I call it both. For some reason you can't just come out and say that you think it's OK to tax me to pay for armed guards for your property, but it's not OK for me to tax you to pay for the food of a starving child.
You hate government so much you want it restrained to only those activities that actually involve violent force. Either government force and redistribution of resources is OK or it's not. And if it is, the only reason not to feed starving children with it, in addition to protecting your property rights, is because you just don't want to.
Mmmm, taste the projection.
"Everybody's gettin' into de act! Ha-cha-cha-cha!"
--Jimmy "The Snoz" Durante.
And the true communist comes out.
"Ownership is a fiction we tell ourselves that's enforced by governments, I hasten to add."
Ownership is not a fiction. It is an abstraction, but that doesn't make it a fiction.
This myth of "property" as being a recent innovation is a complete marxist fabrication- the real fiction.
We can see notions of "Property" in aboriginal cultures and even in non-human animals. Many animals "mark" their territory. This is a primitive version of ownership that, evolutionarily speaking, brings great value.
By marking territory, various animals gain several benefits. 1) they ensure that the territory is not over grazed or hunted. 2) Asserting these ownership rights prevents conflict that could get them injured.
These same concepts of ownership are visible in pretty much every Aboriginal society that anyone has cared to study. Marxists, doing as they often do, have tried redefining terms in order to combat the concept, but don't be fooled. When a tribe marks its territory and fights an adjoining tribe over hunting or foraging grounds, they are asserting ownership.
Marxists have looked at shared responsibilities or shared tools as some sort of proof that aboriginal tribes didn't have a concept of ownership. But the more accurate description is that aboriginals have different terms of ownership and property, and often different terms of succession. For example, in some tribes the Chief is responsible for directing the construction of houses and everyone is expected to help. But once complete, it is assigned to a specific person. To just walk into that person's house without permission is still a violation of norms- it's just the transfer and bestowal terms that is different. Nevertheless, attempt to take the clothes a tribes member is wearing, or attempt to take the food off their plate, and you will get a bad reaction. They own these things- just subject to different terms- and this is not controversial or fictional.
Governments, being abstractions created by humans to advance norms, obviously formalize ownership rights. But they are not a prerequisite- unless there is some big cat government out there setting the rules of pissing on trees. Governments are merely an innovation for mediating property disputes so you don't have two people beating the crap out of each other.
It wouldn't matter if you could analogize the behavior of amoebas to modern property rights; it's still a story we tell ourselves. If nature could tell us who was supposed to own what, there wouldn't ever be war or burglary, one would think.
I'm not against a property rights regime necessarily, I'm just saying that it's a choice that governments make and spend money on. Elon Musk is perfectly fine having the full might of the US government (which he doesn't even help pay for) behind his intellectual property (surely an abstraction of an abstraction). He's pulling up the ladder behind him, and that's not even mentioning all the actual focused subsidies he owes his entire wealth to.
"Elon Musk is perfectly fine having the full might of the US government (which he doesn't even help pay for)..."
Whoa there old baldheaded old Nellie! Are you suggesting that Elon Musk pays ZERO personal income tax to old Uncle Sam?
In the interview he said his marginal tax rate is 53%, and that doesn't count sales tax or other non-income taxes.
But the envious will always say the rich don't pay their fair share as long as the rich are still rich. Someone pays 95% on a hundred million didn't pay their fair share because they have five million leftover and they're still rich.
Cheap psychobabble can't make up for an incoherent worldview.
"Cheap psychobabble can't make up for an incoherent worldview."
LMFAO
You must be maximally narcissistic to not see the irony in that statement coming from you.
Like any smart zillionaire, most of his wealth is in stock, and he can fund his life by borrowing at low rates, never paying taxes on any of it, potentially to death, altering the old saying to "the only thing certain in life is death," though judging by what he's done to his face, he'd probably like to beat that one too.
"It wouldn't matter if you could analogize the behavior of amoebas to modern property rights; "
This isn't analogizing. It is a clear evidence of primitive cultures and animals using an abstraction to imply ownership of property. Like a typical marxist, you try to play semantics games- redefining words, rather than dealing with the evidence.
Nobody is fooled, Tony.
"If nature could tell us who was supposed to own what, there wouldn't ever be war or burglary, one would think."
Yes, this is the problem with Statists. If there isn't an authority to tell us what truth is, there can be no truth.
In reality, it is simple enough to understand that property rights are a simple way for two or more entities to divide up scarce resources without resorting to violence (which is not a great idea from an evolutionary standpoint). You don't need a government to mediate that. It is an emergent order, that happens before government exists.
Government isn't entirely different. It is an abstraction that people use to mediate between one another. It was anthropologically advantageous because hitting each other over the head with sticks is more risky than losing a negotiation. The idea that you need Government before people mutually agree that "this is mine" and "That is yours" is a denial of history that even fundamentalist zealots don't exhibit.
Your arguments are fine and good; I hope others with the ability to understand them accepts the demolition of the asshole shitstain's claims.
But I'm sure you understand that shitstain as a member of the "stupids" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc&t=2s ) is incapable of understanding.
“ If there isn't an authority to tell us what truth is, there can be no truth.”
It’s not just a problem with statist, but THE inherent problem with post-modernism in general (I know they are two different things, but have you ever met a post-modernist that wasn’t also a statist?)
The only thing you know about postmodernism is what you heard in a Jordan Peterson word salad, right?
" It is a clear evidence of primitive cultures and animals using an abstraction to imply ownership of property."
I think this is called the naturalistic fallacy. I can point to any number of examples of primitive cultures and animals cooperating so much it would make Karl Marx blush.
You just have a cultural conception of property rights you want to shoehorn into nature, presumably under the assumption that as humans we are forbidden from changing our societies as we see fit.
Ruled?
You have a funny definition of the word. Elon Musk never threw me in a cell for a plant. Elon Musk never took money from my paycheck.
Corporations have the power to offer you a product, offer you a stake in the company, or offer you a job.
That's about it.
"Corporate Power" sans government intervention has never made any sense to me.
Corporations can bribe legislators.
In libertopia, presumably, they'd simply have their own armies.
Corporations can't bribe legislators into doing things they don't have the power to do. In libertopia corporations wouldn't bribe politicians because the politicians would have nothing to give back. And the army? Well that's the militia. That's everyone. No corporation can fight that.
So we'd have a nationally organized armed force to guard against private armies, just with nobody in charge of it?
My brain is in knots trying to work through the logic of your model.
"Corporations can bribe legislators."
And welfare queens (both corporate and individual) can commit welfare fraud. And gangsters can commit murder. And...
Welfare queens and gangsters don't write policy.
They don't need to write policy. They have powerful people white-knighting for them.
Theoretical.
Also, this like the communists saying that we will make the state ever more powerful until it just withers away.
How many billions do you have tony?
Good grief, Tony, you are still here? I guess you are like a government regulation, too.
So Musk is worth $150 billion? BFD.
We are running deficits in excess of $3 trillion. If the federal government robbed Musk of every penny of his they would need 19 more of them to balance the budget for just one year.
Math is hard.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
But we need democratic government to check the power of morons with a lot of money
How are the morons with lots of money powerful?
Do they compel people to buy their products?
Do they compel people to work for them?
Do they force anyone to do anything against their will?
The answer to all those questions is of course no, and yes when we talk about government.
So why are they a threat, while government is not?
Because he has no money and is jealous.
Because they can buy a lot of shit. They could buy slave children to dig giant pits to throw Jews into, if not for some larger force preventing them. What are you saying, that we should trust individuals to do good with vast resources because their control of vast resources indicates that they are good? Paging Ayn Rand, your pile of cocaine is ready.
Government is supposed to be the most powerful force in society. That's its definition and role. It's no good if it's controlled by oligarchs, obviously, but that's precisely what Elon Musk is endorsing, in the end. He knows best because he's so smart. Except he's not so smart. He knows his one tiny corner of the geek universe and, by all evidence, next to nothing about political science. That's the problem with treating wealth as a proxy for virtue.
They could buy slave children to dig giant pits to throw Jews into, if not for some larger force preventing them.
When government does it, no one can prevent them.
What are you saying, that we should trust individuals to do good with vast resources because their control of vast resources indicates that they are good?
What is government but an organization of individuals making individual decisions?
It's no good if it's controlled by oligarchs, obviously, but that's precisely what Elon Musk is endorsing, in the end.
Government should be the referee in the economy. Not a player, not a coach. The guy who calls the fouls and hands out penalties.
So are you endorsing anarchy or what? You can list all the bad things governments are capable of, but at some point you need to get to a point. Obviously governments can do very bad things. As we've agreed, they are the repository of all legitimate force! The trick is to get them to do good things, and I submit that democracy is one of the means we have found, thought it's by no means perfect.
I don't think "government as referee not player" means anything, which is why I'm so alarmed by Musk's shallowness on this subject. Government buys things. It's a market participant. I argue that there's nothing "distorting" about government participation in the market. It's simply a large customer. Well-managed, it redirects the market in positive directions.
As for being a referee, sure, government makes and enforces the rules. Perhaps we disagree on what those rules should be, but that's no philosophical difference.
As we've agreed, they are the repository of all legitimate force!
I never agreed to that. Self defense is force, and it is totally legitimate.
What government has is the monopoly on the lawful initiation of force.
Responding to unlawful initiation of force is a legitimate use of force by anyone.
If you kill someone in self-defense, guess who shows up to investigate? The monopoly doesn't mean state agents are always the ones doing violence. It can outsource it to individuals in certain limited circumstances like self-defense.
I suppose you're entitled to believe that it's a right that exists somewhere "out there" prior to states, but I think that's fairy tales.
You said government has the monopoly on legitimate force.
Describing self-defense as "outsourcing" is silly. When you fight back against someone government is letting you do violence on their behalf? Come on. That's intellectually weak.
Your right to self-defense is written down in a statute somewhere, and it generally has to be proven to a jury's satisfaction. That's a whole lot of government involved in something you think you have a prior right to.
But again, I'm not married to Weber's model of government (as universal as it seems to be), and I'm not going to tell people to give up their ritual beliefs, as much as I think it would benefit you intellectually to do so.
"Your right to self-defense is written down in a statute somewhere, and it generally has to be proven to a jury's satisfaction. That's a whole lot of government involved in something you think you have a prior right to."
This is patently absurd. People have recognized the right of self defense since looooong before government. It was so uncontroversial that prior to the 19th century, it was pretty much common law.
Your belief that people are unable to adjudicate their differences absent an authority is hilarious. Prior to the WTO nation states were able to negotiate their differences in trade. Prior to the League of Nations and Prior to the United Nations, nations were able to negotiate differences. Prior to Nations, city states were able to negotiate their differences among multiples.
The modern government contains many innovations that make this interpersonal adjudication and negotiation more effective, but it doesn't make the governments necessary. Thinking that you need a government to properly affirm your right to self defense is like insisting that without cars nobody would get anywhere.
Without government, you can assert a right to self defense all over the place. You can assert a right to eat babies for all I care. Words are wind. What you want is an army of goons to prevent someone else from retaliating for your so-called self-defense, and you want me to pay for it.
I don't think "government as referee not player" means anything, which is why I'm so alarmed by Musk's shallowness on this subject. Government buys things. It's a market participant. I argue that there's nothing "distorting" about government participation in the market. It's simply a large customer. Well-managed, it redirects the market in positive directions.
Wow. I'm sorry Tony, but that's an impenetrable wall of... Yes government buys things and that makes it a market participant, but I disagree with literally everything else in that statement.
This conversation is pointless. Have a great rest of your day.
Government is the repository for the RETALIATORY use of force only.
There's nothing distorting about a player who can indefinitely run a business at a deficit? That can print its own money? That's not a distortion?
They have a big incentive to make things that people will willingly pay for (though when the customer is government, that isn't always the case).
Digging holes to throw Jews into is not really a winning proposition for anyone and is the sort of thing that only governments really ever do. And in any case, I'm pretty sure that most libertarians and conservatives are OK with laws against murder and slavery. But if some billionaire wanted to buy slaves and murder people, there are lots of places in Africa where slavery is still alive and well and the governments are weak or corrupt enough where they could go and do just that if they really wanted to. For some reason they don't.
It's something we see in movies all the time... THE CORPORATION - It owns everything - Everyone is a slave.
Really? I can't recall anyone from Walmart ever forcing me to buy a product or show up to a shift.
The rich are powerful! If anything, the rich are a threat to the powerful, because they show how private capital allocation is always more productive than anything government does.
You can't honestly believe that your absolutist proclamations (private sector always allocates better than government, which always sucks!) are true. Come on. Life isn't simple like that, and if you think it is, you need to consider the possibility that you're simply preferring it to be simple so that you don't have to think too hard.
You don't have to 100% love or 100% hate anything. You don't have to pit one thing against another. We're not chimps. We're talking about a global technological community. Entities that control vast wealth have power. That's basically physics. It's nothing to get upset about.
You can't honestly believe that your absolutist proclamations (private sector always allocates better than government, which always sucks!) are true.
I do believe that is a complete absolute truth. Government has no incentive to spend money wisely. Zero. Whereas the private sector goes bankrupt when it spends unwisely. Government just continues to expand, no matter how much it fucks up.
A democratic government is (ideally) incentivized to spend money according to the wishes of the people.
And markets constantly allocate resources in antisocial ways, which we, as free people, are free to use our governments to mitigate.
Take away laws and you don't get an Edenic fairy tale with gentleman's agreements abounding not to sell children into sex slavery. You just get rampant child sex slavery. That's a market commodity we decided that civilized societies must do without, for no reason other than morality. Price signals are not what get that kind of thing done.
Have you actually read what's in the Build Back Better bill? Bunch of handouts to Democrat supporters, hardly the will of the people. And the US is hardly an example of the worst failure of a democratic state.
Would you like to check in with reality before making idiotic claims?
Dunno which muted asshole to whom you are responding, but the answer is "NO".
In one comment you said that people would never buy slaves and then noted that slavery exists in the world even today. People buy slaves. Usually these days for the sake of economic activity, not serving meals to politicians.
I said billionaires wouldn't buy slaves, not that slavery is nonexistent. Both because it is immoral and because there is no benefit for them in doing so. Slavery is a terrible economic model. There's a reason why the south lagged economically compared to the north. Slavery allowed them to keep some kind of dumb feudal system going while the rest of the country developed industry and what we now call capitalism.
So how does making government powerful prevent *government* from just enslaving YOU?
*Looks at all the people buying products made with slave labor in China*.
Yep, government totally prevents people from buying stuff made with slave labor.
Hmm, doesn't seem like Musk is want to "rule the world"; your lefty buddies, however, certainly seem to since they want to control every aspect of the economy.
If we apply the NAP no one will have any power over others.
Great plan.
It is.
LOL Tony. God, you're stupid. Are you this stupid in real life?
So we give the power to rule the world to a different set of morons with a lot of money who are convinced they should rule the world.
Frankly, I'd prefer rule by Musk or even Bezos - at least they know what meeting a payroll takes.
It is absolutely no surprise to me that you want to jump into the arms of the nearest charismatic strongman and call it freedom. Paging Dr. Orwell.
We don't need any government, democratic or otherwise to check the rich. Just don't send taxdollars to them. They'll be all right and we'll e Ll right.
This “democratic government” is not limited to checking the power of those with a lot of money.
More often than not, it checks the power of the people, money or not.
>>"I think the role of the government should be that of a referee, but not a player on the field," replied Musk.
and I'm totes cutting checks to the American taxpayer for the $6billion I got when I voted for subsidies ... before I voted against them.
I mean, I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, but he might actually be able to do it. And wouldn't that be hilarious if he set the precedent of actually paying subsidies like that back.
*then* he could have the acceptance he totally wants from me lol
If only.
That’s probably what he will be paying in taxes this year after exercising some of his stock options.
yikes.
He should send $20 to every American.
I'd rather have a Jackson than one of those slot-racer Teslas
Teslas are pretty amusing to drive.
How so? I haven't yet had the opportunity.
They accelerate very quickly and handle pretty well. Not really better than a regular ICE performance car like an M3 or something, but interesting and different.
Weirdest thing to get used to is that the accelerator pedal is really more of a velocity control. You take your foot off the "gas" and the car will stop. You don't really need to use brakes unless you have to stop very quickly.
they're so fugly.
I live on a dirt road in the woods that’s one and a half cars wide and you need to pull up on the shoulder to let people pass for most of it. How’d a Tesla work for me, ya think?
I'm not recommending that anyone buy one. Just saying that they are fun to drive.
It's cute that he thinks referees don't have a side. That works for football, not real life with real money at stake.
Well, you could always move your company to Texas.
NO!
Fuck you Liz you leftist twat. Yes his companies utilized available programs for subsidies but I don't ever see you shitting on the unions they were designed to save or the cronies that push to increase their take of the public through.
I thought she has been pretty good. On what basis do you characterize her as a leftist twat?
Musk's companies have received a large chunk of government subsidies and contracts over the years... But to be fair, the lions share of the $4.9 billion in government support to musk companies has been in the form of fee for service contracts. EV and Solar subsidies to consumers are probably the biggest market distorting subsidies they have received.
According to the interview, he never asked for any subsidies. That was all lobbying by GM, and he just fit the definition of what GM wanted free money for.
Not "he" but "Tesla."
He runs Tesla.
But to be fair, the lions share of the $4.9 billion in government support to musk companies has been in the form of fee for service contracts.
Everyone at the IRS draws a paycheck for doing a job too.
I watched the entire interview already at the recommendation of someone I'm to lazy to look up in the Mourning Lynx.
He makes some really good points. He's a dreamer for sure, but he's got a great handle on the present. Talking about the infrastructure bill he kept saying "Delete" regarding subsidies and other government spending. That got a few laughs.
I did have one gripe. He said he's not a libertarian because he doesn't think government should do nothing. Don't think that's a fair characterization. But the context was space, so he was probably talking about Mars missions and such. From a dogmatic perspective I suppose he might be right.
This is what I watched.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/12/07/elon_musk_to_china_wouldnt_you_want_to_behave_the_way_you_would_have_wanted_the_biggest_kid_on_the_block_to_behave.html
Tesla CEO Elon Musk said in an interview with WSJ's Joanna Stern at the CEO Council Summit that it will be a "different world" when China's economy is two or three times as large as the USA's.
The good news is China's debt and internal rot is also at least three times what the USA' is.
Is it? It never occurred to me to look up the financials of the Chinese government.
China's economy is almost entirely built on government spending. China is very difficult to understand from the outside, and also often difficult to understand from the inside because it very tightly controls its public image both internally and externally.
There are tons of videos out there from people who really know China who talk about how it's super-modern glass-and-steel megalopolis façade is largely just that.
They're currently going through a pretty massive liquidity crisis, and remember, this is in a country where it's illegal to own land.
Here's a fun throwaway statistic:
Think about that. An estimated slate of unoccupied housing units that could fit 2/3rds of America.
I think I just found an answer to the homelessness crisis in Seattle.
Not just Seattle, but the entire country! You've figured out the solution to Ken's conundrum! Need a railroad bridge between Alaska and Russia! Give everyone a political purity test, and put all the progressives into cattle cars! America is saved!
Its not like the socialist didn't use forced resettlement.
Ghost metropolises. China's version of the Potemkin Viooage meets the U.S. sub-prime housing bubble. It's just a matter of time before the bubble bursts.
The more libertarian Musk sounds, the more I like him.
I like him too, but I wouldn't buy a car from him.
New or used.
The more libertarian he actually was, the more I'd like him. Return the subsidies, Musk, and give your kid a proper name instead of a name for an space alien artifact.
Keep the subsidies. Use them to open private schools.
I have to admit it: it's impressive that Musk, who derives so much wealth from government subsidies, is willing to speak out against this stuff. Good for him.
Musk bought into Tesla about 4 years before the Feds enacted EV subsidies. As he said, neither he nor his company lobbied for those subsidies. That was GM's idea. He was obviously prepared to sell EVs on their own technical advantages over internal combustion engine vehicles.
Whether he lobbied for them or nor is a separate question. The fact is that he is benefiting from them.
(I suspect Tesla wouldn’t exist anymore without government support.)
When the government offers you money, take it? I mean, they're generally robbing you to pay for illegitimate stuff, so that's morally just a return of misappropriated property.
Lobbying for handouts, however, is a special kind of evil.
So, wo7ld you take lifetime subsidies on everything you spend in exchange for government owning you, mind and body, lock,stock and barrel?
#LibertariansWithStockholmSyndrome
The Nazi-Government is the biggest corporate monopoly on violence...
Let's not confuse the difference between a USA government (Constitutional Union of Republican States) and the ever-growing Nazi take-over of the USA.
In the USA "The People's" law is supreme (The US Constitution) and the Nazi-Monopoly (National Socialism) is a direct violation of "The People's" law over their government.
Still waiting for the Nazi Politicians to be stripped of their positions for BLATANT LYING and BREACH of contract to their very sworn oath of office.
And to all you traitors voting for LYING SCUM to be given the power of Gov-Guns; you're all worthless P.O.S.
Government is government - it's the use of violence to enforce compliance.
The only difference is how much buy-in the masses get on what they must submit to.
...what ever happened to it being the use of violence to ensure Individual Liberty and Justice against those that threaten? Seems most believe the government has no other purpose than to work for the criminals (Nazi's).
"the government is simply the biggest corporation, with a monopoly on violence and where you have no recourse,"
And as I've said before, vice versa. The modern multinational conglomerate isn't a private LLC as we understand them. They're forms of government and are at the same time becoming integrated with government.
Things have really changed in the last 25 years and it's time for libertarians to rethink and update their ideas about what constitutes a business or a government.
Entities like Blackrock and Alphabet weren't a thing fifty years ago. It's ridiculous and possibly dangerous to continue to regard them like Kroger, Jim's Plumbing & Heating, Walgreens or Cincinnati Meat Packing.
Particularly groups like Alphabet which have become incestuous with the Federal Government.
^This
There are certainly LLCs that don't fit the description, but to pretend every LLC is similar is to assume all bears are like Pandas.
I think this is...not necessarily proven.
Pan America, Boeing, Hughes Industries- these were all very similar giant companies that got super involved in the government, to the point that they were quasi government controlled in and of themselves. For crying out loud, it is well known that Howard Hughes underwent several jobs as a Government employee- for example scooping a sunken Russian sub off the bottom of the ocean under cover of "oil exploration".
Don't get me wrong, Fascism is definitely a place where libertarians don't think closely enough. I am just arguing that this isn't unprecedented. This has happened before.
Agreed.
Read "Freedom's Forge" (Herman), and then "The Fifties" (Halberstam). Hell, read anything about the supposed 'robber barons'.
Market dominance is a recurring issue and gets chicken littles screaming on a regular basis.
Over the years Musk has been asked if he has any books he would recommend and among his suggestions were these ones related to politics and economics:
Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand
“Very appealing if you’re a sophomore in college. It’s a counterpoint to communism and useful as such, but should be tempered with kindness,” said Musk about Rand’s other most popular book after The Fountainhead.
"The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith
Das Kapital by Karl Marx
“Read Das Kapital when I was 14, incl cross-checking English translation of original German. Adam Smith FTW obv. Ironically, future automation will naturally lead to greater equality of consumption. Monopolies are true enemy of people. Competing to serve is good.” [sic.]"
The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A Heinlein
“Heinlein's MiaHM” is one of Elon Musk’s favorite books on space.
He's and Ayn Rand villain.
He's a government bureaucrat?
You say that in a universe where soros exists.
When did Jack Dorsey ever give two fucks about free speech? At times he talks a good game but he's one of the bigger posers out there.
He is, of course, not ready to forgo those subsidies for his work.
Because what *he* is doing is 'important'.
I'm pretty sure the following statement is true:
Tesla has never gotten any subsidy from the government.
(1) The EV tax credits (for which Tesla vehicles no longer qualify) merely put some of the buyer's money back into their pocket. Tesla never saw a dime.
(2) Tesla's carbon credits were purchased by other auto companies, not by the government. Those companies had the choice of reducing carbon output of their vehicles, pay an emissions fine, or purchase carbon credits from low carbon producing auto companies. Some chose to buy credits from Tesla.
(3) Tesla did get a loan in 2010 from the government but paid it back in 2013 - nine years earlier than required. It paid an early-payoff penalty for being so fiscally prompt. A loan is not a subsidy by normal definition.
(*) I'm unaware of any time Tesla got a genuine subsidy - readers feel free to post a subsidy I wasn't aware of.
Government is supposed to have a monopoly on the RETALIATORY use of force. When it initiates force that's tyranny and it's immoral. The function of government is to defend liberty. Liberty is freedom from the initiatory use of force. To ensure liberty government must be prohibited from initiating force. This can be done with a 28th amendment, "Government shall not initiate force." It's the only moral solution not just for America but for humanity.
You say that, but it's not feasible. There will always be a top dog that initiates force because no one can stop it. That's government. That's the cops. "Fuck you I do what I want, try to stop me and I'll kill you." That's what being a cop means. And who will stop them? Who will enforce this prohibition on the initiation of force? Anyone with that power also has the power to initiate force, because who will stop them?
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes.
"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Exactly. And governments must retaliate against people for hoarding too much of the nation's resources by taxing them heavily.
That's gibberish.
Not when you realize he’s taking about Ryan Reynolds and his sweet ass.
Might I suggest that your extremely simplistic formulation hinges on exactly how you define "retaliation."
It clearly wasn't retaliation when the government set up shop on someone else's continent. So did the timer start some time after the genocide?
Well, take that up with the governments of Britain and Spain and France.
Every bit of land was "stolen" from someone at some point. You think that the indigenous people of North America hadn't been warring over land for millennia before the Euros came? You just can't right the wrongs of history without similarly wronging people who are actually alive today.
"nation's resources" lmao....
Everyone knows you mean 'other' people's labors.
Still pushing for slavery one Democratic idiot at a time.
Do tell; which national resource has dried up in the last oh billion years? Oh yeah; E=mc2 in other-words such a narrative is impossible.
National Socialist (Nazi's) thinking is what has corrupted the USA. There is no such thing as a "government" that has no Gov-Gun monopoly. Otherwise it'd just be a run-of-the mill business.
The *purpose* of that Gov-Gun monopoly and initiation of force is well established (but ignored) by the US Constitution which assigns most of it's "force" *purpose* for national defense against OUTSIDE "forces" that threaten citizens Liberty.
99% of the time "The People" never gave the USA government authority to initiate force against them. But in Nazi-Land it seems no-one gives a F about Individual Liberty and Justice but instead gets propagandized into [WE] mob gangs of the hood.
So to clarify your statements........
To ensure liberty government must be prohibited from initiating UN-Constitutional force on it's own....... While protecting them from OUTSIDE forces....
....think about it; Why did the colonies even bother to create a Union of States Government anyways??? It was for a *strong* National Defense.
"Government shall not initiate force." isn't clear?
Good Kid Productions dropped his latest.
"[...] the Mask fetish, which is utterly mindless and nothing more than performance art [...]"
Link.
This guy reminds me of Trump.
Hated the loud-mouth, self-promoting asshole before he was elected to POTUS and would have only voted for him if my vote counted in the hopes of keeping the hag out of there; in CA, it doesn't.
And then he started doing things that mattered!
Musk had now done one thing that matters; left CA and perhaps that might cause some on the fence to choose. But there are those like those assholes Brandyshit and sarc (and now Gillespi) who, in their infantile claim to 'purity', swear there are no differences between the NSDAP and the SPD.
Making that claim takes a major, not to say willful, effort at abysmal stupidity.
Added:
Unlike Trump, he's yet to DO more.
Elon Musk has it correct that the government is the largest corporation with the ability to use force. While I don't like the fact that Elon Musk has taken advantage of government subsidies, I can hardly fault him for taking advantage of government subsidies.
Having a titan of industry speaking the words of liberty and fiscal common sense is great, but at the end of the day Elon Musk is simply human as the rest of us are. We all try to take advantage of the circumstances we find ourselves in in the most positive light we can. Do we try to pay more taxes or do we all try to pay as little as we legally can?
Elon Tesla needs to compete with other corporations in the real world. If competitors are taking government subsidies and Elon Musk stands on principle and does not, then he will fail. The government has tilted the scale. Better for Elon Musk to take enough government subsidies and government contracts to grow to a size where he actually has some influence.
I understand standing on principle and being ideologically pure, but also realize that we live in the real world and not in a philosophical simulation. Elon Musk is human and in my opinion more good than bad which is much, much more that I can say about the Republicrat\Demolicans we have in political office in DC.
But if Musk did great without government subsidies or contracts, wouldn't that refute the claim that businesses need government to be competitive? Not to mention be practicing what Musk preaches?
And again, I ask: Would you accept government subsidies for everything you spend on in your life in exchange for government owning you, mind and body, lock, stock, and barrel?
No recourse? Is he kidding? You have a heck of a lot more power to sway your elected officials through voting and other means than you do persuading Musk's giant corporation in its decision-making. If he wants to get in a debate about who has more dictatorial powers - governments or corporations, then let's have at it. What a nincampoop.
Shhh, you're gonna break the libertarian dream bubble with that kind of talk.
But you don't have to buy a Tesla from him.
Try opting out of Social Security, for instance.
Actually, with government subsidies to Tesla, you do have to pay for a Tesla, whether you buy one or not, so both Tesla and Social Security are not optional.
Imagine taking anything this douche says as worthwhile.
Musk added. "The federal budget deficit is insane…something's gotta give, you can't just spend $3 trillion more than you own every year and don't expect something bad to happen."
One- that's not even true. The bill is spread over 10 fucking years. For reference, the 750 billion plus that only ever goes up for the military will be eclipse 8 trillion easily over that same 10 year period. Are we too poor for that?
For some reason we have all the money in the fucking world to give to military contractors but never for US, the taxpayers.
The projected budget deficit for 2021 is: 2.77 trillion dollars. That's pretty close to 3 trillion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/business/federal-deficit-fiscal-2021.html
Require a 60% supermajority in the House to pass new legislation & simple majority to repeal legislation.
90% vote in each house, and automatic repeal after 10 years.
Then we would only have laws that are universally deemed necessary. (They could still ignore the 5% libertarian cranks to "get stuff done").