Afghanistan

Libertarians Correctly Predicted the Afghanistan Fiasco

The hubristic idea that America could successfully nation-build in Afghanistan was a bipartisan delusion for nearly two decades.

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Given the partisan nature of everything, it's no surprise that debates about the unfolding humanitarian tragedy in Afghanistan center on the Biden administration's handling—or most would say, mishandling—of the pull-out of U.S. troops and resulting conquest by the Taliban.

"The debacle of the U.S. defeat and chaotic retreat in Afghanistan is a political disaster for Joe Biden, whose failure to orchestrate an urgent and orderly exit will further rock a presidency plagued by crises and stain his legacy," wrote CNN analyst Stephen Collinson. The retreat had a troubling "fall of Saigon" air about it, as desperate Afghans clung to departing U.S. fighter jets.

Others blamed the former Trump administration. "This was a consequence of the Trump administration's announcement…of a fixed date for total withdrawal," argued Robert Tracinski in The Bulwark. "This signaled…that the United States had given up and that we would be leaving the Afghan government without support." That, too, makes some sense.

Nevertheless, late-game finger-pointing reminds me of lost hikers arguing about exit trails—when the problem was heading into the woods in a blizzard. Sure, specific U.S. policies have failed along the way. Writer Bari Weiss, for instance, casts a wide net—blaming Bill Clinton's refusal to target Osama bin Laden, George W. Bush's reliance on warlords, and Barack Obama's unwillingness to focus on winning.

The problem is America's fundamental policy—the hubristic idea that a government that can't even handle its domestic responsibilities has the wherewithal to rebuild an undeveloped nation. That's a bipartisan delusion, although I'm pleased Trump and Biden finally pulled the plug. Had our War on Poverty succeeded, perhaps one could make a stronger case for intervention. We should know better but rarely learn.

Libertarians long decried endless U.S. military interventions given our understanding of the way the government works—as opposed to its myopic promises. I recall the angry responses The Orange County Register editorial pages received when we opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as readers questioned our patriotism for pointing out the obvious. It's too bad it can take decades to be proven right.

The Iraq war made no sense given the dubious connections between Iraq and the 9/11 attacks, but Afghanistan was a hotbed for terrorism. It was a tougher case, but there were alternatives to an outright invasion. But once our leaders start pounding the war drums, there was no reasoning with Americans who insisted that this time results would be different.

It is horrific to watch the Taliban, whose philosophy emanates from the Dark Ages, cement its grip on Afghanistan. The results will be tragic indeed. Expect widespread executions of those who cooperated with the Western regime, the relegation of women to the status of chattel, and the re-imposition of Islamic law. But let's not forget the horrific effects of the war and occupation.

"An accurate accounting of the war in Afghanistan must take into account the roughly 2,400 American service members, 3,800 American contractors, 66,000 Afghan security forces, 47,000 Afghan civilians, and others (including journalists and aid workers) who were killed," explained Eric Boehm in Reason. Then add to that the trillions of dollars in costs.

Reason also pointed to a report by the U.S. Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction. SIGAR lamented our shifting goals: "At various points, the U.S. government hoped to eliminate al-Qaeda, decimate the Taliban movement that hosted it, deny all terrorist groups a safe haven in Afghanistan, build Afghan security forces…and help the civilian government become legitimate and capable enough to win the trust of Afghans."

Although it pointed to a few successes, the "Lessons Learned" report documented 140 pages of failures. The best lesson learned, however, is that the United States should not insert itself into these foreign conflicts, should not engage in nation-building, and should limit its interventions to defensive measures that actually protect our nation and its interests. That's what libertarians always have argued.

"Most Americans still want to see some sort of retribution against Osama bin Laden and his far-flung organization," wrote the Register's late editorial writer Alan Bock. "But more are wondering if they'll see it anytime soon. The dread word 'quagmire,'…has become part of the discourse." He wrote that in 2001—and it's hard to say he was wrong.

What should the United States government do now? It should complete the pull-out, keep close tabs on any terrorist networks that could threaten us, and accept as many Afghan refugees into the United States as possible. Many of them, especially interpreters, worked with the U.S. military. Welcoming them here is the least we can do—and can help prevent a bloodbath.

Former Gen. Colin Powell is known for citing the "Pottery Barn" rule of foreign affairs. "If you break it, you own it." How about the U.S. start following the libertarian rule—just stop playing with other people's pottery?

This column was first published in The Orange County Register.

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  1. Hey look! An article that’s a longer version of what I stated yesterday.
    If the writers at reason read the comments the wouldn’t be surprised by what’s happening in Afghanistan.
    Greenhut shouldn’t be surprised that the proggies at reason didn’t see this coming.

    1. Except for the “BoTh SiDeS “ bit.

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    2. Why are you here? Do they not let you comment on NewsMax?

      1. Why are YOU here? Do they not let you comment on WaPo, Salon, Vox, etc.? Progtards are not wanted or needed here. Or anywhere.

        1. Couple of brand-new handles here, whining that their fave droolin’ imbecile is getting trashed.

          1. Disaffected, defeated right-wing bigots and desperate, delusional faux libertarians are among my favorite culture war casualties.

            Open wider, clingers. That will improve your comfort as your betters shove progress down your whining throats.

            1. And a few tired assholish bigots too, assholish bigot.

              1. I’m tired of the idiot copy pasting the same unoriginal bullshit. Which isn’t very insulting and merely showcases his stupidity.

                1. Artie kirk was the first person I muted. Before the spam-bots.

                  Boring.

            2. Hey, Artie. I was watching the NatGeo documentary called Year Million , which dealt with Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, Life Extension, Transhumanism, The Singularity, Dyson Spheres, Terraforming, all those deep, science subjects.

              Anywho, two of the people featured were a couple in the Mid-West who used the latest Internet, Satellite, and Mecha-Electronic Automation to farm over 10,000 Acres all by themselves!

              Two Flyover people have got you beat on technology and productivity , Artie! The only evidence of vegetation you’ve ever produced via electronics is your copypasta!

              Are you sure you’re not the “Clinger” who should “open wider” for what’s coming everybody’s way?

    3. What.. no UNSC/UN mandate, just a false flag? An Arab in an Afghan cave shut down the 1/2T$ US air defenses with his laptop, then had one of his 22 his L Pilots, this one couldn’t solo a Cessna172 with 600 logged hours, fly a hologram, at the impossible ground level speed of 580mph, right through a Twin Tower, and ‘crush’ it so well, that the remains could be removed overnight in 4 hours, instead of taking 4 years. That being.. Millions of tons of twisted steel girders, glass, concrete, air con machines and ducts, plumbing and sanitary ware, wiring and emergency genes, office equipment,, and 3000 HUMANS.. that in 2X 100M high mounds.. (physics), not forgetting, the 2 remaining central cores, 417M high(!)! as the floors had ‘pancaked’, according to NIS. Search ”.9/11 Hologram Plane Theory – Bill Cooper RIP Nov 5 2001”.

      1. Tin foil hats, aisle 6. Make sure the shiny side is out.

      2. Surfside condo pancaked too.

      3. Now is “The Hour of The Time” for you to fuck off!

    4. I used to think all my opposition to invading ‘Nam and Allahughanistan was wasted. Now I see I was right all along. The force initiating looters are still lying to stay home and send youngsters into entangling snares. May allahu akbar be the last thing they ever hear–and schadenfreude.

  2. To be fair, predicting Biden would fuck up the exit from Afghanistan was like predicting the Matt Millen Lions would be a disaster. Yes, Biden has fucked this up royally but that was a given.

    1. Dude can you learn new information and change your opinion. Let’s find out.

      “The Afghan government asked the Biden team NOT to start evacuating people earlier, because it would start a panic (which we have seen). The Biden team did warn Americans to get out anyway, over and over.”

      Since March of this year, the State Department has sent 19 messages to Americans in Afghanistan telling them to leave. Warning them. Offering to pay for them to leave.

      — Joe Walsh (@WalshFreedom) August 25, 2021

      The Biden team needed a few days to ramp up, but they have ramped up the evacuation.

      New numbers: From 3 AM EDT on 8/26 to the same time on 8/27, approximately 12,500 people were evacuated from Afghanistan.

      Roughly 105,000 people have been evacuated since 8/14.

      Since the end of July, approximately 110,600 people.

      — Andrew Bates (@AndrewJBates46) August 27, 2021

      https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2021/8/27/2047498/-Good-News-Roundup-for-Friday-August-27-2021-Governing-Is-Hard-But-the-Ds-Are-Pushing-Ahead

      1. Dude, bro, brah. Sorry the truth doesn’t fit your broken paradigm.

        1. Also bruh, bruv, bredda, bredren.

        2. Chumby, your two votes for George W Bush are drowning out your toothless criticism of the withdrawal process

          1. Unless some election official changed my ballots afterwards, I have zero votes for any Bush. The dad and the son. Thanks for making up bullshit though. Seems common for mouthbreather types for them to be able to sleep at night.
            And just below I put the majority of the blame for entering Afghanistan on Bush/Cheney.

            1. Lot of prog shitbags trolling today. Did we get some new transplants? Or is it sock puppet day for the usual suspects?

              1. Sock puppet name changes. Having several muted, one can see when they identify as some new failure.

                1. Pretty sure you’re right; they have some knowledge of several of us.

      2. Look, Strazzy found a bunch of cut and pastes during its last visit to Dem Underground. I love how partisans become completely unhinged from reality and transparently shill when this shit happens. I can’t wait to see you defending Harris and her administration next year.

        “The Afghan government asked the Biden team NOT to start evacuating people earlier, ”

        The Afghan government has been asking the US NOT to start evacuating for 18 fucking years. It is their goto position because, as we saw, they are incapable of fighting on their own. The only chance the US had of making a good evacuation was to get the Americans out of there before the fighting season started. By trying to have his 9/11 PR Stunt, Biden guaranteed that our forces would be sharing space with the Taliban in Kabul.

        “The Biden team needed a few days to ramp up, but they have ramped up the evacuation.”

        If only they had started ramping up 6 weeks ago…And all they needed to do was get our NATO allies to protect our people coming out. That you overlook this is telling.

        Just face it man, this withdrawal was an epic fuck up. It was Biden’s Katrina, and nothing is going to change that. Your attempts to select one or two countervailing facts doesn’t change the reality that 80% of the country sees on tv right now. You are coming off as flat out delusional.

      3. Until there is photographic documentation of the State Dept messages, it is hearsay. It is possible to move groups of personnel out of a country without raising suspicions, governments and non-government groups have been doing just things for centuries. This reduces the ‘don’t embarrass the Afghan govt’ narrative you favor. Your jubilation about the positive evacuation numbers needs to be tempered. This evacuation would not be necessary if the administration you put into office did not cause this horrific problem. So, good, reacting to a problem they were they created. Kudos. Extra ice cream for all US citizens who want it.

      4. Lord of Shit is spinning faster than a wind gauge in a hurricane:

        “The Afghan government asked the Biden team NOT to start evacuating people earlier, because it would start a panic (which we have seen). The Biden team did warn Americans to get out anyway, over and over.”

        Just yesterday, he was telling us that Biden told everybody to sit tight.
        And then:
        “Roughly 105,000 people have been evacuated since 8/14.”
        Thanks, US military, saving people and keeping Biden from looking quite the addled, drooling piece of shit he is.

      5. WTF? We listened to the Afghan government (why would do that?) and you think that excuses some or any of Biden’s decision making?
        So thousands were evacuated? What does that even mean and why it even relevant? We were supposed to leave and withdraw with our equipment, citizens and Army – and told it would not turn into a Saigon moment. We’ve lost tens of billions in equipment; soldiers are dead and citizens remain trapped.

        1. “We listened to the Afghan government (why would do that?) and you think that excuses some or any of Biden’s decision making?”

          Bottom-scraping, but if you’re trying to excuse Biden, it’s all you got!

          1. Compared to what? I have not seen you make one comment relevant to the discussion other than bashing liberals. Do you seriously think the clumsy evacuation somehow stands out in terms of fuckups of the many fuckups in that region? I think it’s fine to bash Biden. He didn’t show much foreign policy savvy as VIP in the Obama administration. But the selective outrage by people like you is ridiculous. Not one US president managed the situation in Afghanistan well. Not one.

      6. Number of AMERICANS evacuated?

        That is my concern.

        And wen you resort to citing Joe Walsh, you have hit a low point.

      7. So now you admit that the administration was saying two different things at the same time?

      8. “The Biden team needed a few days to ramp up, but they have ramped up the evacuation.”

        They started out by saying there were 11k Americans in country (while some estimates had as high as 15k). They refused to say how many Americans were evacuated for days, then after more than a week they said they had evacuated 4,500 out of 6,000 (where the other 5,000 went, nobody knows). They started packing it out Saturday night with the final total of Americans out at around 5,500. Those last Americans in country, could number anywhere from 500 to 9,500 depending on whos numbers are actually reliable. Many evacuations were handled through private orgs that saw the admin dragging their feet and said “we’re not going to wait on the Biden admin to get people out.” The admin did a great job getting people out by volume, but it’s not clear what that composition of people actually is. It’s been reported that of the 110k plus flown out, there have been about 5,500 Americans and about 8,000 SIV families. The rest are either nationals from NATO countries or just random Afghans who wanted a ride out.

        “Since March of this year, the State Department has sent 19 messages to Americans in Afghanistan telling them to leave. Warning them. Offering to pay for them to leave.”

        At the same time state was saying this, they were also talking about keeping the Kabul embassy open and Biden was saying the Afghan government was unlikely to fall. Talking out of both sides of your mouth can have that effect. People are more likely to see what the president says on CNN than they are to see a travel advisory on the US Embassy of Kabul website.

        “The Afghan government asked the Biden team NOT to start evacuating people earlier, because it would start a panic (which we have seen). The Biden team did warn Americans to get out anyway, over and over.”

        While the Afghan govt was asking not to evacuate people earlier, groups like No One Left Behind were very publicly warning Biden that Afghan interpreters needed to be evacuated because the Taliban was targeting them. It took Biden months to even mention Afghan interpreters should be evacuated. He finally said something on July 8, but evacuation flights weren’t even started until July 31.

        Lastly, citing DailyKos is about the equivalent of just reading off a DNC talking points email.

    2. Biden hasn’t botched a ‘pull out’ this bad since Hunter was conceived.

        1. Nardz said the “D” word.

      1. Something something stained dress.

      2. Almost made me drop my phone. +2.

    3. “….. the Matt millen lions…..”

      Lol. The lions and the dems. Losers forever. Apt analogy. Seems to be missing an amusing pun, tho?

  3. The immediate disaster is a result of Progressives’ refusal to admit that any policy based on Progressive ideals can ever fail. Just pour more money into it and success is guaranteed, rather like the high speed rail project in California.
    Once the decision to vacate Afghanistan was made, plans for the complete failure of the government should at least have been considered. Planning for failure was seen by all involved as creating that failure. Even the Pentagon screwed up, and of course the State Department could be relied upon to always ignore reality.

    1. The Taliban follow the example given them by Herbert Hoover, Tricky Nixon, Billy Graham, Ronnie Reagan, George Holy War Bush, G. Waffen Bush, Harry Anslinger, Gerald Ford, Bill Bennett, Jerome Jaffee, Miles Ambrose, Robert DuPont, Peter Bourne, Mathea Falco, Carlton Turner and every Republican and Democrat who voted for Biden’s 1986 Revival of Shoot-First Prohibitionism and Asset Forfeiture. American politicians taught them savages that the initiation off deadly force is good, if your intention is to please Allah.

      1. You ‘forgot’* Obummer, who told us that Afghanistan was the “good war” and that he had a plan to win it.

        *Don’t think anyone thinks you forgot that.

        1. Sockpuppet eat Mitt and die, vote Johnny torch, get beat by girlzz. Poor baybee. Run cry to Milo.

      2. You are getting carried away with Ad Hominem here. Reagan’s policies had a tendency to be middle ground between conservative and libertarian. If you start paying more attention to what people agree on, rather than what people disagree on, only then can a society live in harmony.

        “The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally – not a 20 percent traitor” – R. Reagan

        1. I think that conservatives and libertarians agree 80% of the time, but the same can not be said for liberals and, well pretty much anyone.

          1. You can’t have a harmonious society when psychotic totalitarians have all the power.

        2. Reagan was hamstrung by a Democrat Congress, and Clinton was kneecapped by Gingrich’s Contract on America. Divided Government is best.

  4. It was not as if nothing was accomplished in those 20 years. Having the Taliban in hiding rather than running Afghanistan and offering safe haven to terrorists organizations was not a bad condition. The question is, was having the relatively small force for supporting the Afghan military and keeping that society relatively free a worse situation than what we have now, especially with the dishonorable and disgraceful way the Biden administration has implemented this withdrawal, that anyone can trust the US government.

    It is not at all clear that Libertarians are correct in supporting it, or that there will not be terrible consequences coming of it.

    1. The Libertarian platform opposed all invasions, including Vietnam, Sodom’s Sand People and Afghanistan. The reason it took our spoiler votes 20 years to rescue our troops from the murdering Kleptocracy is that both looter parties still suckle off Nixon’s Anti-Libertarian Law for pelf and boodle that funds their crooked election campaigns.

      1. Your spoiler votes didn’t do shit. You’re a deranged idiot who has individualy helped set back the cause of libertarianism because you are a bizarre jackass. Nearly every one of your posts makes people embarrassed for you. It also makes libertarianism look like a kook fringe philosophy.

        You help put loser marxists like Biden in charge, and diminish the cause of freedom.

        1. Pick up on the poor mathless sockpuppet still crying for Herbert Hoover *SNIF*

        2. Well said. Did you know gramps basically wrote Roe vs Wade? And one time at band camp Richard Nixon fingerblasted him?

    2. Germany and Japan. Nation building may fail, but rebuilding has two stellar references.

      1. Those were first world nations before and after. Afghanistan, not so much. Apples to oranges. You cant rebuild a country that was never built to begin with. What few modernized cities Afghanistan had were just Western colonies. Push the westerners out and it collapses. History has shown this to be the case the vast majority of the time, especially in African countries. It takes many generations for a society to transition from third world to first world, politics aside. This is part of the reason the melting pot experiment failed.

        1. Id also like to emphasize that I am not in agreement to forcing this change on countries. They should decide for themselves and ask for help if they want it.

  5. Plenty of fault but here is the percent breakdown:

    Bush 60% – put us in the shithole with no objective
    Trump 20% – Cut N let-somebody-else Run
    Biden 20% – worst pullout since Stormy Daniels

    1. Botched Exit: Biden 100%

      Adult Decision to Leave: Trump 100%

      Entrance: Bush/Cheney 65%
      Biden/Congress 35%
      Trump 0%

      Occupation: Obama/Biden 100%

      1. Don’t be too upset, sbp wanted to stay because the taliban age of concent is 8

        1. Buttplug’s Biden botched bacchanal boy buggery. His response? Buggers

          1. Buggers?

            That’s dangerously close to dingers. Which is dangerously close to…… something.

        2. Yea, but 8 is like 18 in Afghanistan years.

      2. Ok Chumby. We get it. You have a major hard-on for Donnie the bankruptcy king.

        However, Biden is the only one who actually sacked up and took us out of Afghanistan. Trump was oh so courageous and signed a deal with the Taliban that he didn’t have to hold up- he just passed it off.

        1. Weak sauce. Try harder.

        2. Never voted for Trump either. I’m allergic to misinformation though so things appear clearly. Try removing those government-funded prog glasses.

        3. “However, Biden is the only one who actually sacked up and took us out of Afghanistan.”

          It doesn’t matter how many fucking times you repeat this, the image that the world will have of the sacking and removing is that of the Afghan soccer player plunging to his doom from US aircraft. That’s because your daddy, Pedo Joe and his dick suckers in the military, his cabinet and the Pentagon couldn’t organize an orderly withdrawal. And come on, let’s be honest here, that is the exact criticism and outrage the world has right now. This didn’t have to end this way. Oatmeal For Brains and his supporters (YOU) really thought that this colossal fuck up could be swept under the rug with bUt tRuMP! as the excuse. Give me a fucking break. And to watch that stupid old senile fucker announce from the Oval Office “The adults are back in charge.”, and to see this is fucking brilliant. Bravo, Smart Set, bravo!
          #RestoringNorms
          #ButAtLeastNoMoreMeanTweets
          #AdultsBackInCharge

        4. Yes, he just assumed he would not win re-election. You figured it out!

          1. ^That and also Biden is deflecting all blame on his piss poor withdrawal to Trump.

            “It was his deal, my hands were tied.” Not exactly Biden sacking up.

        5. Trump passed it off and Biden decided to run with it? That’s the story you want us to believe? The left is so far removed from reality they don’t understand how beyond stupid and incompetent that makes Biden and the military look.

        6. “…You have a major hard-on for Donnie the bankruptcy king…”

          Why do steaming piles of lefty shit assume we have any interest in their erotic fantasies?
          And, further, why do they make sure we know that their concepts of business practices are pretty much 3rd-grade-level?

        7. Biden delayed for a 9/11 photo op and because he was concerned Trump’s deal didnt do enough to protect women’s rights. Then he pulled the military, but not assets, Americans or allies, out in the dark of night without informing the Afghans.
          But the State Department sent strongly worded notices for people to leave. Everything they could do. But good luck to anyone not already in the airport!

          WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?

        8. Take your faggotry back to WaPo. Your claims are already discredited. As are you now.

      3. It’s fair to say that Congress bought into the Obama/Biden ‘plan’ to fight the ‘good war’ in Afghanistan.

        Of course, that Congress had both houses controlled by Dems at that time as well.

      4. Congress bears full responsibility throughout as they are the branch that declares war and funds it. They gave up that hot potato after Vietnam with the war powers act.

        Biden does get the full credit for the exit.

        1. Biden does not get full credit for the exit. Trump started the exit and brought the deal that bound the US to an exit trajectory.

          Now that the Biden admin’s handling of the withdrawal looks bad, Biden keeps saying “This was Trump’s deal. My hands were tied.”

          Trump gets half credit. Biden gets half credit.

    2. Our most pressing problem right now is that our president is senile and insane.

      1. I disagree. The root cause is the democratic party platform, and the fact that they got control of both houses and the White House.
        Who the figurehead is is irrelevant.

      2. The entire Nixon-funded Kleptocracy is senile and insane!

        1. Take your meds, Henry.

    3. Skipping Obama? Fucking racist asshole.

      1. But he doesn’t support the D’s.

        1. Of course the D’s have moved so far to the left that Obo is a moderate now.

          1. Not even remotely

            1. Oh, you missed the rewrite. Bill Clinton = traditional conservative. Obama = right-wing moderate.

              1. In all fairness, how many socons have done the same thing Clinton did?

                1. It’s funny – as I was typing my reply I thought the Clinton rewrite is at least partially true. That 1996 election was the first and last time I voted for a Democrat.

    4. Lies from turd – 100%

    5. If Biden had followed Trump’s exit plan, you would have a point. Trump planned on being reelected and dealing with the exit as well, so the kills your argument.

      1. You gotta love how these folks think that Trump wanted to hold onto power so much that he personally organized and incited the *inurrection!* on Jan 6th . . .

        But at the same time he decided to sabotage Biden’s legacy by . . . getting out of a 20-year quagmire?

  6. It is horrific to watch the Taliban, whose philosophy emanates from the Dark Ages, cement its grip on Afghanistan. The results will be tragic indeed. Expect widespread executions of those who cooperated with the Western regime, the relegation of women to the status of chattel, and the re-imposition of Islamic law.

    First, the crocodile tears over the execution of collaborators are not fooling anyone. If a foreign government sent troops to invade and occupy your country, and people in your country cooperated with the invaders to disposes you of your sovereignty, autonomy, and participated in killing thousands of your countrymen, how would you react? In the aftermath of World War II, stringing up and executing Nazi collaborators was a national sport for occupied countries.

    Oh, but — you see — it is unconscionable to view our troops and military through the lens of an occupying force, or as the bad guys. We’re the good guys! Our invasions are always moral and righteous; our sponsored collaborators and traitors are beyond reproach, are they not? They’re not. Reality is a hard pill to swallow.

    Second, Muslims are fine with Islam. Not my circus; not my monkey.

    Third, time to move on. We are not going to change the world. We are not saviors. We have no duty to save everyone. Our arrogance may be boundless, but our resources and the patience of the people is not.

    1. Let them ruin the way they want. We all know it will fail on its own.

      1. You bet.
        Afghanistan has completely failed as a nation after every invader left, starting with Alexander the Great. Right?
        Oh, wait. All the invaders had to leave, and Afghanistan is still there.

        1. So, no problem?

    2. As long as the Progressive movement exists, America will continue to bumble and stumble into every foreign country it sees as needing regime change and nation building.
      Thanks to Pres. Wilson and his progressive minions, we now have been involved in one war after another, passed ridiculous progressive legislation and mired America in foreign countries that neither wanted us there or asked for it.
      The progressive movement is a recipe for one disaster after another.

      1. America must be cleansed of progressives.

    3. I too, don’t blame the Taliban for killing collaborators who forced radical feminism, LGBTQ+ Ideology, and in general Progressive ideology on their countrymen like they were rats in an experiment. The US gov’t seriously didn’t understand that destroying the concept of masculinity and trying to turn the Afghan children into fucking queers wouldn’t go over well with the general tribal population? And they marvel over how the Taliban took so many areas without so much as a shot being fired. It’s almost like the majority of the Afghan people looked at the Taliban as liberators, lol.

      1. Perhaps you should book a flight over there and be a Taliban’s wife/dancing boy/goat proxy. You sound like you would enjoy it. Oh, and convert to Islam as well and be a wife/dancing boy/goat proxy with your ass in the air 5 times daily to an imaginary asshole deity Allah.

        1. Lol, cry some more bitch. Those 6th century, goat fucking primitive fighters defeated the most powerful military on earth and your fucking bullshit Progressive ideology. Why fly all the way to Afghanistan when you can stay here and join the Progressive Tolley-Bon? All that time, blood, and resources squandered on “Nation Building”. Maybe if the gov’t wasn’t throwing money down the drain to export feminist studies and took advantage of the spoils of war we would be in be in a different situation. Don’t think for one second China and Russia aren’t in there already doing what we should have been doing in the first place. But go ahead and be mad that our Gay Nation Building project failed you fucking faggot.

          1. Not a Progressive Nation Builder, Asshole. Just someone who thought we should have fought to destroy both The Taliban and Al-Qaeda and get out without rebuilding…And someone who thinks our Military could do it without regards to sexual orientation.

            The defeat was not the product of your beloved goat-fuckers but of a lack of focus on the proper role of a free society’s military. You would have done no better than the Oval Office Drool-Dripper.

            As for Russia and Red China, Russia deserves another Vietnam and Red China deserves it’s first. Let them have it and please, please be there when it all goes down!

            1. Not a Progressive Nation Builder, Asshole. Just someone who thought we should have fought to destroy both The Taliban and Al-Qaeda and get out without rebuilding…And someone who thinks our Military could do it without regards to sexual orientation.

              Indeed, just look at what the boy-fuckers in the Taliban accomplished.

      2. trying to turn the Afghan children into fucking queers

        I understand that it doesn’t take much trying .

        1. Showcase your ignorace and cretinism some more…

    4. We may not be able to change the world, but, had ee properly fought to annihilate The Taliban and Al-Qaeda, then exited without rebuilding and “nation-building,” we could have stopped The Taliban and Al-Qaeda from making the U.S. and the West into the circus monkey of Islam.

      We can still do it yet if we get back our energy independence that we almost had and grow own own legalized opium Genetically Modified to kill pain and not people and with the kudzu growth gene to make it plentiful and cheap as candy.

      By the way, you know who else compared others to Nazis?

      1. The Taliban and al-Qaeda are symptoms, not causes, of deeply ingrained notions of Islamic superiority over a degenerate world otherwise populated by worthless infidels.

        Unless we were willing to exterminate millions of Afghans and prohibit the practice of Islam on a mass scale, nothing we ever did would have stopped Afghanistan from devolving into a fractious, tribal society mired in internecine conflict and ripe for the emergence of groups that engage in jihadist operations around the globe.

        At the end of the day, you cannot tame a tiger with the hope the rest of the tiger population will suddenly decide you aren’t dinner. That’s not how it works. We lost because we did not understand that people cannot be won over by an occupation.

        1. One thing we could have done and can still do now is starve every one of the “Tigers” by drilling for our own oil, digging for our own Uranium, and growing our own opium.

          If we did that, the only commodities they have going for them would be rendered wothless and the regimes and terror cells that depend on their revenues would be broke. The “Tiger” would have to change it’s stripes or die.

          All that could have been done and could still be done without firing a single shot. Will we wise up and go for energy and pharmaceutical independence?

    5. stringing up and executing Nazi collaborators was a national sport for occupied countries.

      Murderous persecution of German-speaking people all over Europe was “national sport”, collaborators or not.

  7. It’s weird how people talk about third-world countries as if they’re public parks or something. It’s like, of course we’re entitled to muck around there, the only question is whether we can “accomplish” anything.

    Rarely does anyone point out that it’s NOT OUR COUNTRY, and it’s OUTSIDE THE JURISDICTION OF OUR GOVERNMENT.

    1. and none of our business, besides.

    2. It was a country whose government was harboring an organization that committed an atrocity against the American people. That made who was running Afghanistan our business.

      1. “…That made who was running Afghanistan our business.”

        And after 20 years, those people are still in charge.
        Hint: If you can’t accomplish what you desire, don’t bother wasting time and money on it.

      2. Are you going to gloss over our involvement there during the ’70’s?

  8. Well it’s a very good thing Biden was elected because he was one of the few people who agreed that we had no business in Afghanistan outside of killing Osama Bin Laden. They got Republicans, today, saying we should reinvade Afghanistan and fight the Taliban (they’re crazy!) because ISIS attacked us. ISIS wants the US to invade Muslim countries so that the heat gets turned up in the Muslim world and it puts American troops in harm’s way.

    1. Republicans have this fake macho where they talk tough then want someone else do the fighting.

      1. The problem with democrats is they think you can have massive central government forcing one-size-fits-all policies on complex’s and controversial social problems enforced with systemic violence and that counts as “peace.”

        1. Well that’s why we got you guys around. Keep talking. Democrats for all their faults are not afraid of changing or doing things differently. Personally I just want to help people and I realize sometimes that means not helping them.

          1. So any minute now they will change course on the War on Poverty?

            I won’t hold my breath.

          2. “Democrats for all their faults are not afraid of changing or doing things differently.”

            Using systemic violence to rapidly alter society is often a bad idea. Republicans, for all their faults, are cautious about change.

          3. Then sell all of your possessions and give the proceeds to the less fortunate. Volunteer to tutor some kids. You don’t want to help anyone, you want to dictate that others be forced to do what you think is good. That’s why you are a scumbag progressive.

          4. “Democrats for all their faults are not afraid of changing or doing things differently.”

            “Their”. Lol. Did you actually write “our” and hastily edit it?

            Tell me again how Obama and Biden “Tried things differently” in Afghanistan and Iraq back in the 8 years they were doing Surge 2.0 Bush’s Boogaloo. It was Trump who executed the withdraw, you shill. He did things differently.

            1. Well, Biden did to. He threw out a functioning plan and decided to bumble his way through the mess!
              It sure is turning out to be “different”!

              1. That’s not different, its the new normal.

        2. Now do trillion dollar defense budgets, fascist moron.

          1. Now do your mortgage payments

            1. Now go do the voodoo that you do so well

              1. Now fuck off and die, JFree.

          2. We’ve never had anything approaching a trillion dollar defense budget. And defense is actually called for in the constitution. You know what isn’t? Nearly all of the federal social spending.

      2. It’s not only macho shit though. It’s also the money. All kinds of different people from lawyers, NGOs and others were making money off the US military presence in Afghanistan.

        1. Yeah, those lawyers and NGOs; hotbeds of libertarians!
          Fucking idiot.

      3. Right, because Democrats would never talk tough while having others do the fighting.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIRYvJQeHM

      4. turd has this inability to tell of recognize the truth. turd lies.

    2. A republican was the one who negotiated a withdrawal. Your boy bungled it.

      1. “The next guy will be responsible for the withdrawal.” Is just kicking the can down the road, and passing the responsibility to someone else, dipshit.

        1. Yeah, he kicked the can down the road to May, and then Biden kicked it to 9/11 for the symbolism, then 8/31, but closed Bagram in July. Crazy like a fox. Or an idiot.

        2. So he wasn’t planning on being re elected ?

        3. ““The next guy will be responsible for the withdrawal.” Is just kicking the can down the road, and passing the responsibility to someone else, dipshit.”

          Having a plan in hand and offering it to the next guy after not getting elected sort of makes it look like you’re a steaming pile of lefty shit!
          Ooops; got a whiff – you ARE a steaming pile of lefty shit.

      2. When Biden’s not taking credit for the withdrawal, he’s blaming Trump for the withdrawal.

    3. Killing Osama bin Laden for what?

    4. Lord of Shit must think we were all born yesterday, like him:

      “Well it’s a very good thing Biden was elected because he was one of the few people who agreed that we had no business in Afghanistan outside of killing Osama Bin Laden.”

      Only spent twenty years supporting the war as a congress critter and a VP, and this lying piece of lefty shit tries to pass that steaming pile across.

      1. Being a progressive means simultaneously accepting two conflicting premises.

    5. >>one of the few people who agreed that we had no business in Afghanistan

      his war drums must have drowned out your ability to hear the Bush call for “light footsteps” and (D) crusade to nation-build

    6. He opposed killing OBL, Sullum.

    7. Sleepy joe was #2 when OBL got capped. Don’t recall him ever advocating getting the fuck out 10 years ago. Maybe he was invisible from the glow emanating from the great and powerful O?

  9. Reason as Tim:

    ARTHUR: Go on, Bors. Chop his head off!

    BORS: Right! Silly little bleeder. One rabbit stew comin’ right up!

    TIM: Look!

    [squeak]

    BORS: Aaaugh!

    [dramatic chord]

    [clunk]

    ARTHUR: Jesus Christ!

    REASON: I warned you!

    ROBIN: I done it again!

    REASON: I warned you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you knew it all, didn’t you? Oh, it’s just a harmless little bunny, isn’t it? Well, it’s always the same. I always tell them–

    ARTHUR: Oh, shut up!

    REASON: Do they listen to me?

    ARTHUR: Right!

    REASON: Oh, no…

    KNIGHTS: Charge!

    [squeak squeak squeak]

    KNIGHTS: Aaaaugh!, Aaaugh!, etc.

    ARTHUR: Run away! Run away!

    KNIGHTS: Run away! Run away!…

    REASON: Ha ha ha ha! Ha haw haw! Ha! Ha ha!

    Very becoming.

    1. Kristian H. as clever:
      “I’m stupid and here to prove it”

      Thanks, K. We got it.

  10. Libertarians tend to be right about stuff. But this stuff above was blatantly obvious even for a toddler. Who would have thunk that Biden will be a colossal failure? Well, most everyone on this planet with a 3-digit IQ score.

    1. Yeah, hadn’t thought about that.
      Reason: Libertarians’ totally predicted the sun coming up!

      And also, the don’t bettors in Craps, short sellers, predicting the next depression. Sooner but usually MUCH later, they my be correct.

      1. Given that the house edge for Don’t Come bets is only 1.4%, yes, it is a good bet, more accurately – one of the best and most sensible.

        1. It doesn’t help if you can’t ‘exploit’ the asymmetry of being correct when others are wrong. (Craps, both sides are net losers in the usually very short run)

          The thing is, we can always say ‘It won’t be worth it’ and, particularly if you get to choose the measure, be correct. But is it less less worth it than the alternative? That is, given bad choices, and in competition against others you rarely have good choices), which is the least worst for which measures?

          Also, unlike checkers, go, chess, the idea that there can be a winner in all conflicts, or maybe any, flies against entropy. But, you also have costs by avoiding conflicts. Sometimes I think libertarians tend to elide that costs they are ACCEPTING or FORCING ON OTHERS when they chose to turn a blind eye to the world. The libertarians seem to think force it always a affirmative, never a restrictive action. But it takes force to refrain from doing something. Holding back the dammed waters takes, in some cases more, force than releasing them.

          1. And the maintaining the status quo (maintenance of the dam) takes energy applied to do force. If libertarians are never willing to use energy to do work, then they will be forever at the mercy of others and simply flotsam, and not actors with agency.

            1. Thanks for the word salad.

            2. Did your mommy say you were clever?
              She lied.

      2. “Reason: Libertarians’ totally predicted the sun coming up!”

        Don’t forget that some of them actually voted for the Fuck Up.

        1. And most of the rest declared they would of their electoral vote wasn’t assured to go to him.

    2. Did you mean to type 2 digit iq?

  11. “desperate Afghans clung to departing U.S. fighter jets”

    This is CNN.

    1. Don’t you know cargo planes are fighter jets, and all guns are assault rifles?

      1. Assault planes?

        1. Fighter rifles?

  12. It’s a shame that for many the first response to Biden’s failure is to use it as an excuse for more immigration.

    For 20 years, the left has been telling us how much the Afghan population want us out, what was it they called it? An occupation? The Afghans should be overjoyed, and yet they seemed most concerned at our departure.

    Something doesn’t smell right, and I’m going to bet the left has been lying their faces off for 2 decades is the most likely culprit.

    1. AOC orders Biden to resettle 200,000 Afghans.

    2. What exactly is Biden’s failure, in your opinion? The fact that lots of people want to leave Afghanistan since the taliban have retaken the country? The fact that there was a terrorist attack yesterday?

      Seriously curious what you think the failure part of this is and also why you think Biden owns it

      1. Changing the deadline from May 1. Pure hubris to have some gala on Sept 11.

        Ignoring the intelligence. Even the WH press corps had it. In July, when Biden was asked about the Taliban taking over he spoke over the reporter and said it would not happen. Without humility. At the same time, China was meeting with the Taliban knowing what was about to happen. Biden said it wouldn’t happen. The press thought it would. China knew it would. And it did happen.

        Not having a cohesive plan in place months before the deadline. He winged it while on vacation. In between naps. And it has been a disaster.

        Failing to get non-essential folks out well ahead of the original deadline. You can disagree with the May 1 deadline, but that was the deadline both sides agreed to. His botch is so bad on this he provided the Taliban with the personal information of Americans still stuck in Afghanistan so maybe the Taliban would help them get out.

        Failing to communicate with our NATO allies, who were there to help us. Germany and France trashed him for not sharing what the US plans were. The UK actually condemned Biden in large part due to this.

        Failing to develop a policy for which Afghanis were eligible to come to the US and how to facilitate that process efficiently.

        Failing to implement a strategy to minimize the Taliban from obtaining US military hardware.

        Abandoning the two runway Bagram airbase back in July. It is easier to defend and can handle twice the air traffic. He also did that in the middle of the night without telling anyone.

        1. Don’t forget ordering the withdrawal of all aviation support and maintenance contractors. Effectively crippling the Afghan military’s air power – one of the main reasons for the sudden collapse and rapid Taliban takeover.

        2. “…Pure hubris to have some gala on Sept 11…”

          Imagine what the party’s gonna look like now!
          Red, white and blue body bags!

  13. Still trotting out the old Osama bin Laden pony trick to deceive people. That so many ignorant Americans continue to believe that lie is not surprising. Most Americans have the attention span of cat and the memory of a Canary.
    Hence, the United States of Amnesia.
    The plan to invade Iraq was formulated months before 9/11. It was even forwarded to another foreign ambassador.
    Bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11.
    The war on Afghanistan was all about money. It was a money funnel from the word go. Why do you think there were so many NGOs and contractors involved?
    So now after twenty years of failure, it’s obvious some wish it to continue.
    The insanity.
    Einstein was correct about insanity and American foreign policy proves it every day.

    1. Einstein advocated coercive socialism within three years of the U.S. stringing up the National Socialist elite at Nuremberg. See “Why Socialism?”

  14. This isn’t about libertarians being right. It’s the realists and pragmatists that proved to be right and the neocons that proved to be wrong. If you still aren’t on board with pragmatism and realism, then you’re still wrong–regardless of whether you or your arguments are libertarian.

    I have no doubt about the libertarian arguments against neoconservatism. I’ve made them here every day here for years, but that doesn’t mean there weren’t legitimate libertarian arguments in favor of neoconservatism–or that there weren’t libertarians making those arguments in good faith.

    I remember Michael Young, Charles Paul Freund, and Cathy Young, here at Reason, making those libertarian arguments back when those arguments were still about what we should do in the future. Their arguments were thoroughly libertarian–even if they were ultimately wrong—and, yes, the arguments I made against them were thoroughly libertarian, too.

    Ultimately, this isn’t about the libertarianism of Reason staff or Cato vs. the neoconservatism of Bush and Obama. It’s about championing the pragmatic sides of Brent Scowcroft, Colin Powell, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Donald Trump, and others against neoconservative idealism.

    If you’re still oppose to U.S. support for Pinochet, if you’re still criticizing the Clinton administration for failing to invade Rwanda, if you’re still opposed to Trump working with Putin to destroy ISIS, or if you’re still opposed to Trump’s efforts to bring the vile regimes of Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and the UAE into a U.S. armed military alliance with Israel–so they can defend themselves and us against Iranian aggression, then guess what? You’re still wrong–for all the same reasons the neoconservatives are wrong on these issues–and that’s regardless of whether you or your arguments are libertarian.

    For goodness’ sake, if you think the only thing wrong about the neoconservatives is their enthusiasm for nation building, then you’re completely missing the boat.

    1. As usual, Ken is correct.

      Neocons are to blame for all of the American military occupations/debacles in Islamic territory (er nations) whose borders were created by Americans, British, French many decades or a century ago.

      While it would nice if Biden also supported removing many/most US military from Germany, Japan and Korea, he’d screw up implementing those policies as well.

    2. Powell?
      The “you break it you bought it” voice of occupation and nation building???

      1. Powell as in the Powell/Weinberger Doctrine.

        P.S. The Pottery Barn rule isn’t optional. That’s the way it is. If you don’t want to take responsibility for fixing a country, don’t break it.

        It took somebody with balls of steel to negotiate with the Taliban to get us out of Afghanistan. You think that will happen again in our lifetimes?

        We’ll be lucky if we ever get out of Iraq completely. We broke Iraq, now, for that reason, Iraq is our problem to fix. We should have listened to Colin Powell.

        Colin Powell wasn’t setting policy with that statement. He was telling us how the world works. Inflation comes from overspending–whether we like it or not. High taxes, regulation, and socialism stifle the economy–whether you like it or not. Censorship creates a chilling effect–whether you like it or not. And, like it or not, when you break a country, you end up being responsible for it. If you don’t want to be responsible for fixing Rwanda, don’t break Rwanda.

    3. Sounds to me like you are wanting interventionism, just of a slightly different flavor than the Neocons.

      What stops your flavor of intervention from turning into American blood and treasure lost for a Pinochet, a Putin, or the Islamofascist Saudis, Kuwaitis, Bahrainis, Emirateis, and Sudanese?

      Why not repudiate intervention except for retaliation entirely and let our enemies fight and kill each other instead?

      1. If you can’t tell the difference between Pinochet and Vietnam, I don’t know what to say that Jeane Kirkpatrick didn’t already write about.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkpatrick_Doctrine

        We should point out that Kirkpatrick made these statements before Pinochet, eventually, held a referendum on his own rule, respected the results when he left, and stepped down. Meanwhile, he denied the communists the domination of his country and the Soviet Union the ability to spread to stave off death due to its horribly flawed economy.

        . . . and none of it required American troops fighting on the ground like we did in Vietnam.

        And you can’t tell the difference between American troops on the ground, like in Vietnam, and simply providing military support to the enemies of our enemies?

        Here are three differences off the top of my head between Pinochet in Vietnam.

        1) Support for Chile eventually paved the way for a transition to democracy. Invading Vietnam did not.

        2) Vietnam was a tremendous cost both in treasure and American lives. Chile was not.

        3) Indigenous dictators like Pinochet are more effective at fighting our enemies within their borders, but the U.S. fighting as an invasion army against indigenous enemies, like we did in Vietnam, is extremely ineffective and often proves to be counterproductive.

        Conclusion: Yeah, if making nice with Stalin is what we need to do to defeat the Nazis and Imperial Japan, and defeating those enemies is in the best interests of defending the Constitution of the United States and the rights of the American people, then making nice with Stalin is exactly what we should do.

        And I maintain that letting American defense contractors sell conventional weapons to the Saudis, the UAE, and our allies in Israel so that they form an alliance to defend us against Iran is vastly superior to the United States leading the charge in a war against Iran. In fact, that the road out of the U.S. guaranteeing the security of the Middle East entirely. It’d be nice if we had some democratic and adorably free regimes in the area to sell arms to, but in the absence of that, we should do what’s in the best interests of defending the Constitution anyway.

        P.S. Do you disapprove of McDonalds buying cows from homophobic farmers, or do you think McDonalds should just do whatever’s in their best interests?

  15. “should not engage in nation-building,”

    Sometimes nation building is part of the answer. Dropping bombs has its limits. In Iraq, the US presided over the purple finger elections, which mobilized a majority of the population and conferred legitimacy on the elected government. When Sunni extremists took the second city, Mosul, the US, along with Iraqi government forces, Shia and Kurdish militias, Iranian forces under that general Trump had assassinated, and others, fought successfully together to flush out the terrorists.

    I wouldn’t go as far as to say Iraq is a success story, but some good that came of is due to nation building, building a national coalition to work against a common enemy. It could have happened in Afghanistan, too, but the US was determined to freeze out the Pashtun tribes which constituted the backbone of the Taliban resistance. And when the Doha talks began under the Obama admin, it was the Afghan government that was essentially frozen out. The common enemy is the extremists who perpetrated the attack yesterday, not the Taliban. The Taliban, indeed, are probably best suited and able to eradicate such terrorists from the country, having the best intelligence, local knowledge, language skills, and a proven skill at fighting. They would make an invaluable ally in the Afghan theater. Had the US spent 20 years in an effort to bring the tribes together, as we saw in Iraq, the situation today would be improved.

  16. Libertarians were right about Afghanistan

    So were Leftists and socialists like me that didn’t want to go there in the 1st place. There weren’t many libertarians at protests against the Afghan War back in 2001-2002. Only the usual collection of pacifists and communists,who were— as they tend to be— right about the issues again.

    1. “So were Leftists and socialists like me that didn’t want to go there in the 1st place.”

      This is mostly horseshit.

      Leftists and socialists are mostly revolutionaries at heart, and the neoconservative enthusiasm for overthrowing dictators is rooted in their Marxist origins.

      1. P.S. Progressives largely gravitated to neoconservatism under Obama, and they’ve stayed there since–because neoconservatism is thoroughly compatible with the fundamental precepts of progressivism.

        Using the coercive power of government to force people to make sacrifices for the common good, as progressive see it, is what their domestic policy is all about, and using the coercive power of government to inflict their idea of progressive freedom on people beyond our borders in no way conflicts with that.

        The left’s opposition to neoconservatism was mostly rooted in thier opposition to George W. Bush’s aesthetics. They didn’t like his drawl. They didn’t like his opposition to abortion. But there wasn’t any significant opposition to Bush’s foreign policy on the left until it was more or less foisted on them from the grass roots. Bush enjoyed solid support from the left until John Murtha started supporting the removal of troops from Iraq–years after the occupation started.

        I’m sure you can find somebody somewhere on the left who opposed Bush’s neoconservatism, but they were hardly influential. A practically unknown senator from Illinois became the leader of the Democrats and won the White House because he was the only person they could find on the left who wasn’t enthusiastically supportive of neoconservatism when it mattered.

        And then, when he was elected, he became a neoconservative.

        1. Ken, this was my experience protesting against Iraq and Afghanistan. Lots of red flags and communism. I didn’t see any Ayn Rand quotes.

          What’s with you and Iran anyway. Do you want to go to war with them too? I don’t. I want peace, love, understanding and respect with everyone. Maybe you should pay for all those bombing campaigns you were talking about last night. People like me don’t want any part of your bloodbath.

            1. Oh, look! Pictures of people holding signs!

            2. That link is about a war protest in London–against the British joining the war in Afghanistan.

              I was talking about American politics.

              1. The UK is not a fan of Biden. They protested then Senator Senile’s vote to invade Afghanistan and now their parliament formally condemned him.

                1. Congress should follow the lead.

          1. “Ken, this was my experience protesting against Iraq and Afghanistan.”

            You misspelled “protesting against B-U-S-H”, commie shit.

          2. “There wasn’t any significant opposition to Bush’s foreign policy on the left until it was more or less foisted on them from the grass roots.”

            —-Ken Shultz

            If you were part of the grass roots movement that protested against Bush’s wars before 2005, congratulations. I mentioned that.

            In that era, I was in a mosque in Los Angeles when the Imam got up and told everybody that not only was it okay for their Muslim sons to join the U.S. military in a fight against a vicious dictator like Saddam Hussein, but that they were good Muslims to fight for the freedom of their fellow Muslims in Iraq.

            Those on the left who opposed Iraq, even, were few and far between for the first few years of the war–even at the grass roots level. And it showed in the election results of 2002, where George W. Bush had one of the best showings of his party in a first midterm election in American history. There was little of no opposition to Bush’s foreign policy–not even on the left–until, say, sometimes after the Abu Ghraib photos came out in 2004 and John Murtha came out against the occupation in 2005.

            And even then, the left’s opposition, when it materialized, wasn’t about opposing national building per se.

            “What’s with you and Iran anyway. Do you want to go to war with them too?”

            Too? I opposed the war with Iraq. What do you mean, too?!

            Meanwhile, Iran is a state sponsor of a terrorist army that uses it in aggressive actions against its neighbors. They also have a nuclear weapons program, the capability to launch satellites into orbit with multistage rockets, and they’re a security threat to the United States.

            Oh, and they’re a security threat to the United States regardless of whether I want them to be, regardless of whether I want to go to war with them, and regardless of how you think we should treat them. And if you can’t see that my support for an alliance of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, and Sudan with Israel–as a means of self-defense against Iranian aggression is the means to get us out of a war with Iran, then I think you may be delusional.

            Biden didn’t do what he could to destroy the alliance Trump was building among them because he wants us to no longer guarantee the security of the Middle East, like we have since before Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.

            Biden destroyed that budding alliance, to the best of his ability, because he wants the United States to be at the forefront of any military confrontation with Iran. That’s part of what being neoconservative is about–they support and want American Empire, and they want the United States, rather than proxies, to do the fighting.

            1. “If you were part of the grass roots movement that protested against Bush’s wars before 2005, congratulations…”

              Nope, not unless commie shit kept protesting after they became Obo’s wars and added protests as Obo added wars.
              If not, the war was peripheral to protesting against Bush being POTUS, as Cindy Shehan proved.

              1. There were a few who did that, and maybe he was one of them!

                But the left wasn’t opposed to Bush’s neocon policies generally. There was practically no opposition for the first four years, which is one of the reasons Hillary thought she would win the nomination in 2008.

                Why would the left oppose toppling a vicious dictator?

                We libertarian opponents of the war were rare. There was more in the way of Brent Scowcroft pragmatic opposition or Pat Buchanan isolationist style opposition on the right than there was opposition on the left.

            2. Ken, the more the Sunnis and Shia Iran are killing each other, either directly or in proxy wars in Iraq and Syria,, the less either of them are killing us. No need for entangling alliances, just sit back and let the fun begin.

              Oh, and I wouldn’t sweat about Israel. IIRC, they recently blew up one of Iran’s centrifuges with explosives left there a decade earlier! They’ve got this!

              1. “Ken, the more the Sunnis and Shia Iran are killing each other, either directly or in proxy wars in Iraq and Syria,, the less either of them are killing us. ”

                If you were passingly familiar with the history of Islam you would know this is not usually the case. Islam has shown itself quite adept at invasion and territorial expansion even while engaged in substantial internal strife.

              2. The problem is not Islam against the west, and that would be a hopeless battle if it were. There are more than a billion of them. What’s your solution to that? The problem is using the military to protect our rights from the threat of the government of Iran, and the solution also involves banding together with Iran’s shared enemies in and out of the Muslim world.

            3. “Meanwhile, Iran is a state sponsor of a terrorist army that uses it in aggressive actions against its neighbors. ”

              Same can be said of Saudi Arabia’s sponsorship of ISIS in Yemen and Syria. All part of the American ‘guarantee of security’ in the middle east.

          3. You’re completely full of shit. There was no anti war movement. Except for a few delusional idiots like Cindy Sheehan. The whole thing was an anti Bush movement. Proven by the fact that nearly all of it evaporated once Obama was installed as president. Cindy Sheehan was subsequently thrown away like rotting garbage. Another idiot who outlived her usefulness to the progs.

      2. “rooted in their Marxist origins.”

        You mean their Trotskyist origins, of course. ANSWER, the outfit that organized what is probably the biggest antiwar demonstration in US history against the Iraq invasion, is Stalinist. ie not neocon, not Trotskyist.

        1. Fuck off, trueman, and take your bullshit with you.

      3. “…This is mostly horseshit…”

        The parts that aren’t are accidental.

    2. As a libertarian, I vehemently protested Bush’s invasion of Iraq.

      While pacifist left wingers opposed that invasion (just as they oppose most US military invasions), most left wing Democrats in Congress and the media fully endorsed and championed that stupidity.

      1. But I supported daddy Bush’s invasion (and quick removal of troops) of Iraq a decade earlier after Saddam invaded Kuwait.

      2. Actually, with regard to the AUMF in Iraq a plurality of Democrats voted against. Look it up. Republicans were United in support.

        1. Why don’t you ‘look it up’, commie shit?
          And a plurality? Are your hands tiny enough to grasp at straws that thin?

          1. He’s such a desperate lying Marxist.

    3. “Only the usual collection of pacifists and communists,who were— as they tend to be— right about the issues again”

      … unless the Soviet Union did it.

  17. Raise your hand if you are sure the U.S. government should today be conscripting high-school kids to burn down villages and toss grenades at women and children in Vietnam. Now act surprised when those grenades start going off in officers’ tents. That is the unequal but apposite force that follows aggression.

    1. The draft, General; don’t forget the draft.

    2. I’m not raising my hand, Hank. A lot of people here who daily lecture me on how much of a totalitarian I am are just fine with bombing and burning little kids if they get in the way of the U.S. war machine.

      1. Your philosophy has murdered hundreds of millions of people over the last century.

        1. the eleven people responsible for that mayhem were all the wrong guys.

        2. That is referred to as the “break in” period.

        3. And this is common knowledge, supported by the records of those who murdered all those people.
          And commie-shit keeps supporting those regimes.

      2. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, the communists in the USA supported the soviets.

      3. That’s because you are a confused totalitarian shit.

      4. Ah so! Someday sockpuppet read LP 1972 platform, learn to vote…

  18. Trump gets about as much credit as Obama for leaving. Neither one of them were man enough to do it.

    I’ll give Trump credit for this: He got many conservatives to quit their reflexive “they want to cut and run!” nonsense every time someone talked about ending a stupid war.

  19. Trump gets about as much credit as Obama for leaving. Neither one of them were man enough to do it.

    I’ll give Trump credit for this: He got many conservatives to quit their reflexive “they want to cut and run!” nonsense every time someone talked about ending a stupid war.

  20. Wow!! A little tone deaf crowing about how smart you are 24 hrs after Americans and allies are killed. There’s no other points to be made outside of the US military needs to get the rest out. Nothing. Period. We can turn our attention to that idiot Biden and brag about how smart reason is later.

  21. Hey guys,

    Last night I looked for the war boner Viagra and I found out that Ken and the other assorted fucking asshats that want to bomb and shoot at poor people in Asia used it all up. I mean, come on, no one can go that long and hard about how we need to gun (or bomb) Afghanis without using some sort of supplement.

    1. “Last night I looked for the war boner Viagra and I found out that Ken and the other assorted fucking asshats that want to bomb and shoot at poor people in Asia used it all up.”

      It’s an emotional reaction to a terrorist attack. It’s the reaction the perpetrators intended. Once Ken realizes he’s being played for a stooge, I expect a more sober minded reflection to prevail.

      1. Yes, because stern words and economic sanctions are know methods to defeating terrorists. They respect that.

        Oh, and sorry generations of women. Hope you enjoy life as some randy fuck’s personal walking lampshade.

        1. “Yes, because stern words and economic sanctions are know methods to defeating terrorists.”

          If Ken or anyone else knows how to defeat terrorists, he should let us know too. The record of the past 20 years has been one of failure. But keep up with the emotional venting for now. It will pass.

    2. And this morning you made up all sorts of brain-dead excuses and lies!
      I have a strong suspicion you do this constantly in order to remain a commie shit, and need no assistance at all.

  22. The hubristic idea that America could successfully nation-build in Afghanistan as long as we vote for the right top DeRp there won’t be any problems with foreign wars is a bipartisan delusion among the commentariat here for nearly two decades.

    FIfY

    1. Oh, boy! JFree drags out the “BOTH SIDES” argument! How original!

      1. Holy shit your life must be really sad. Literally shitposting on a forum every day all day. Kinda makes your whole life pathetic. A man who obviously has no family who spends all day in front of a computer arguing with strangers. You are a sad meme of the modern times.

        1. Really upset your guy fucked things up, are you? Found out that steaming piles of lefty shits like you are really stupid?
          And now, your REALLY upset someone is calling you on your bullshit and lies.
          Hint, asshole: Fuck off and die; your family will be proud.

          1. Seriously. Its just all day on every thread. What is wrong with you, man? I know children who have a similar routine to yours. I’m trying to imagine what your life must be like, constantly in a frantic mode of reaction. I think your brain has worms. Regardless, your life is sad and no one would be proud of it

    2. I suppose we should deny all of them health care.

    3. This one’s not a winning ticket either, JSlave.

      Maybe just try accepting that Biden is an idiot and a liar.

  23. “Libertarians” predicted nothing, they just emote the same bullshit day in and day out. Get elected to Congress without the help of the GOP and then you mouth off. Fuck you.

    1. Oh we are not at all finished mouthing off. Just gettin’ warmed up.

      So GOP help. Yeah we had a lot of that. Dems and GOP have done everything in their power to shut us up.

      Well fuck you too.

      1. Suck more leftist dick, piece of shit.

    2. Oooo. Straightjacket sockpuppet angry!

  24. In North Carolina there is a place called Ft. Bragg. It is home to the fabled 82nd Airborne. They claim to be able to deploy anywhere in the world within 18 hours.

    My simplistic understanding. Establish a secure perimeter and safe passage. Get our people out. Then we leave.

    Why is this not happening?

    1. Over the course of 11 years, from 1979 to 1990, the Israelis evacuated almost the entire Falasha (Beta Israel) people out of certain death in Ethiopia and Sudan. With Operation Moses, they evacuated 8000 in a single swoop, albeit there were some deaths in transit.

      Why can’t a nation as powerful as the U.S. have done this as fast as we destroyed The Taliban and Al-Qaeda and killed off Bin Laden?

      1. The Americans never destroyed the Taliban, they are taking power in Afghanistan as I write. Al-Qaeda wasn’t destroyed, as the events of yesterday prove. I’m not sure about the death of Bin Laden, either. Israel never had the privilege of fighting and losing a war against Ethiopia and Sudan. If that were the case, their evacuation would have been more hazardous.

        1. Yup but it was never the goal to defeat anyone. The goal was get our people out. The Mossad did that.

          The government had from Bush on an idiotic strategy. There never was one. Now a FUBAR exit.

          1. You’re the one who constantly advocates complete submission to leftist totalitarianism and unquestioning obedience to top men.
            Fuck off and die, echospinner.

    2. There is no realistic way to establish a secure perimeter around HKIA. Not without levelling a large chunk of Kabul and placing substantial forces on the ridges to the immediate north.

      Safe passage is even harder.

      Both, at the same time, is all but impossible.

      This disaster started with withdrawing the logistic and maintenance contractors supporting the Afghan air forces, allowing the Taliban to rapidly advance; and was cemented with the abandonment of Bagram air base.

      1. E is hoping to find some bullshit which might make Joe look less like the droolin’ imbecile he is.

      2. Infantry. You do not need to level it into Stalingrad. You need to deploy on a temporary level and give safe passage. Leadership needs to tell the Taliban what the US is doing. No more negotiation. That failed.

        Then we go forever.

        1. “Infantry.”

          Ok. There is your normal level of imbecility, and then there is that.

          Look at a map of Kabul. You want infantry to go house to house, secure a perimeter sufficient to protect the airfield, then occupy and hold it?

          And I thought you’d never exceed the idiocy of your “antibiotics are useless for preventing infections” line.

          1. Yup it is exactly what they excel in. Defensive lines. This is not something new in tactics.

            Since when did I say that antibiotics were useless? You use antibiotics to fight infection, not to prevent infection. Neither HCQ nor Ivermectin has been proven to be effective to reduce risk, nor treatment against this virus. Both are effective against malaria and other parasites.

            So great. If one of them works I will be the first to cheer.

            1. You are truly an idiot.

              “You use antibiotics to fight infection, not to prevent infection. ”

              Wrong.

              Prophylactic antibiotic use is commonplace in medicine.

              Fucking look it up.

              I’ve explained this to you before.

              But, you are an idiot.

              1. Besides antibiotics only for bacterial infection and have little to no use in viral, fungal or parasitic infections EXCEPT prophylactically to prevent secondary infections.

                1. Someone really needs to look out for echo. He cannot be trusted to walk while carrying a pointed object.

        2. Have you ever heard of combined arms? The US infantry isn’t trained to be a stand alone infantry unit, it is trained to be an arm of the combined arms. We aren’t trained or equipped to operate separate from air, artillery and armor support. I see you’re another armchair general who never wore the uniform.

          1. The US infantry has never been a stand alone force, even during the Revolution, but especially since 1917.

          2. The main tactical doctoring of US infantry for over a century has been to make contact and then call in Air and Artillery support to cleanup. The USMC also has a similar tactical training.

            1. There is a reason that the US Army calls artillery the King of Battle and the infantry is only the Queen of Battle.

              1. I do not agree that battle, in the conventional sense, is called for here. Air support can happen any time needed. There is no need to fight the Taliban.

                All that is required is a safe zone to evacuate for a few weeks or a bit more. Yes my armchair. So call Gen. Donahue and tell me his answer is his unit is not up to the mission.

                If the answer is no. We cannot do it then the US has failed.

                1. So you want to send in infantry for a mission they aren’t trained for, without the equipment and combined arms that they are trained to do? Without the support they rely on from artillery and air power and armor that they rely on in case shit hits the fan? Just admit you don’t know what you are talking about.

                2. I don’t need to call Donahue to understand military doctorine, I am fourth generation Army and my son is fifth. I grew up with it. And my father was infantry, my grandpa was armor, my great grandpa was infantry and my son is armor.

                  1. I am not questioning your credentials.

                    This is retreat under threat and fire.

                    It can be done.

                    1. Yes, with overwhelming force on overwatch. It requires overwhelming force. Not just infantry. And this force should have been used two weeks ago with US and NATO checkpoints out away from the airport, not Taliban manning the checkpoints. Or even better retaking and opening at least Bagram as a base to launch rescue missions. It would have been better to take over several former NATO airfields throughout the country, but Bagram would have been enough. I said two weeks ago that HKIA was indefensible and guess what I was right.

                  2. Yes and as a member of the very important medical arm of that you understand the difference between fighting an infection and fighting a guerrilla infantry force.

                    I do not think the US should fight the latter. Best to retreat. The former best we have is vaccine.

                    1. Actually the best way to fight an Infection depends on what the pathogen is. Not with a vaccine. And retreating is always,historically speaking, when you take the most casualties. It doesn’t matter if it is conventional warfare or COIN, when you retreat or retrograde you are the most vulnerable.

                    2. And vaccines only prevent some infections, are almost useless against fungal and parasitic infections. They do little to nothing to actually fight an active infection and may actually do more than good during an active infection. That is why we don’t give vaccines to people who feel sick.

                    3. The best retreats, with the fewest casualties involve counterattacks and delaying actions such as ambush. The best way to avoid casualties is to be on the offensive, with overwhelming manpower and firepower. That hasn’t changed since the days of Mesopotamia.

                    4. To paraphrase Gen. Smith, USMC , during the Chosin counteroffensive “retreat, hell, we aren’t retreating we’re attacking in a different direction” which is exactly what the 2nd Marine Division and the Army’s 7th Inf Division did, attacking surrounding Chinese forces, outnumber probably 10 to 1 by the Chinese, and successfully exfiled from the previous untenable positions to UN controlled ports. It started out as a defensive engagement by US forces that Smith turned into and offensive maneuver to exfil troops.
                      During the battle of the bulge part of the reason Nazi forces were not able to meet their mission objectives is because small pockets of the retreating US forces launched counter assaults and ambushes, delaying the Nazis long enough for the other troops to regroup and time enough to move up new troops to reinforce the line and take key defensive positions (the most notable being the 101st in Bastogne) and for the 3rd Army under Patton to go on the offensive against the German’s flanks.

                    5. One more set of data points: Washington lost more troops in retreating from Brooklyn and Manhattan then he did in the two battles. Also, Confederate forces loss more troops retreating from Atlanta during Sherman’s advance from Atlanta, then they did defending Atlanta.

                    6. Yes soldiermedic. Depends on the pathogen and what tools you have to fight it. So the medic soldier does not fight bleeding injury in the same way as a viral pathogen. We agree about that and I trust we would and you would fight for my life as I would yours, I do not think we would have a problem working with each other.

                      So at the end of the day. Perhaps we could agree that get our evacs out safely is the only choice.

                    7. Pretty sure the agreement among those with some knowledge of the subjects you address is that you are full of shit.

                3. You are a moron.
                  Take your ignorant, passive-aggressive worthless ass to Afghanistan and get killed.
                  Bring your similarly worthless family.

  25. At this point it would have been better to just stay on an indefinite timeline. It wasn’t tremendously expensive. While my libertarian ideals said “don’t stay here/don’t go there” in the beginning, once we’re there and stay, we should own our mistake vs. creating another one.

    On the other hand, freedom of association is the ability to freely associate yourself with Afghanistan and stay there. I’m not sure we should do anything for people that stayed, as long as they don’t have to bake gay afghan wedding cakes for sky shootouts.

    1. If we say we’re going to stay forever, the war is back on and the ‘it doesn’t cost very much’ line looks a lot different.

    2. Even our RDF, the 10th Light Infantry and 82nd

      1. Are equipped and trained to coordinate with artillery and air support forces.

        1. Wrong spot damnit

  26. Libertarians Correctly Predicted the Afghanistan Fiasco The hubristic idea that America could successfully nation-build in Afghanistan was a bipartisan delusion for nearly two decades.

    Yeah, Mr. Obvious. Most people predicted that nation building in Afghanistan wasn’t going to work.

    The purpose of US troops in Afghanistan was to have a base of operations for hunting down terrorists. And whether or not that was a good idea, it didn’t have to end in a “fiasco”. The US has troops all over the world, including in many authoritarian states.

    The fiasco we are seeing is due to Biden’s incompetence, not to “nation building”.

    1. “The fiasco we are seeing is due to Biden’s incompetence”

      I thought Biden was the ‘napper-in-chief.’ He would have left the planning and execution of the evacuation to others, presumably high ranking military types on the ground in Kabul.
      The idea of Biden handling the evacuation, however incompetently, is incorrect.

      The idea the nation building failed is also incorrect. It was never given a sincere and determined effort. The divide and conquer strategy the US employed precludes nation building.

      1. “I thought Biden was the ‘napper-in-chief.’ He would have left the planning and execution of the evacuation to others, presumably high ranking military types on the ground in Kabul….”

        trueman now has it that droolin’ Joe is totally incompetent, but competent enough to hire and listen to really good people!
        Truman is stupid this way, along with many other ways.

      2. Are you serious? For the president, napping on the job is incompetence.

        And nation building obviously failed, as you can tell from the outcome.

        1. “Are you serious?”

          yes. What part gave you pause? Failing to organize and execute Kabul’s evacuation is incompetence. Sleeping on the job is peanuts in comparison.

          “And nation building obviously failed”

          It’s half assed nation building at best. Half assed measures are likely to fail.

          1. the bullshitter trueman seems to think (?) that we didn’t spend enough blood and treasure.

          2. Failing to organize and execute Kabul’s evacuation is incompetence.

            And that is exactly what Biden did: he failed to organize and execute Kabul’s evacuation, which is his job as commander in chief. Thanks for confirming it.

            It’s half assed nation building at best. Half assed measures are likely to fail.

            Yes, and they did fail. Hence, “nation building obviously failed”.

            1. “And that is exactly what Biden did: he failed to organize and execute Kabul’s evacuation,”

              Biden is in Washington and is a career politician. Those who organized and executed the evacuation were undoubtedly high ranking military officers stationed in Kabul.

              ““nation building obviously failed”.

              It was attempted. Rather the US did the opposite of nation building by their strategy of divide and conquer. I hope you can understand this. It’s not complicated.

      3. Sadly, the left is using the divide and conquer strategy in the U.S. now. Like you said, not great for nation building. I agree, the current Joint Chiefs of Staff are not given nearly enough credit for this epic failure. This does not however exonerate Biden. There were others in the chain of command, albeit lower and closer to the battle who advised him to handle things differently.

        1. “There were others in the chain of command, albeit lower and closer to the battle who advised him to handle things differently.”

          He’s insulated from all that. The man is a career front man for the finance industry. To expect him to have meaningful input on military matters is laughable.

          And the left using divide and conquer is perfectly understandable. It works not to build nations but to demolish them. That’s why all this talk of the US’ efforts at nation building in Afghanistan is nonsense.

          1. Keep making up excuses for droolin’ Joe, trueman; it only adds to your rep as egotistical, stupid and smug.

  27. Big problem:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/taliban-fighters-reportedly-seize-military-side-kabul-airport-using-american-weapons

    With the deadline for the American withdrawal from Afghanistan looming in just four short days, Taliban fighters are moving to take full control of the airport, according to unconfirmed media reports. At this pace, it looks like the airport will be under complete Taliban control by tomorrow.

  28. https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1431332796610588674?t=2c4BCZN4MsQiA-oc4SeJkA&s=19

    JUST IN – Taliban are calling on the population in #Kabul to hand over all privately owned weapons and ammunition within a week.

    1. Well, the Democrats did call the Taliban “progressives”.

  29. A couple days ago Reason ran an article saying anyone questioning the vetting is beyond the pale Evil Nativist because the only ones coming into the US were SIV. Today the Pentagon admitted that less than 50% of those who have entered the US are SIV holders or applicants. Another Reason narrative destroyed.

    1. You have to pass them through the border to find out what is in them.

      1. They assure us everyone is tested for COVID though, however, they won’t require them to get vaccines,that’s just for us plebes.

      2. But droolin’ Joe is claiming this is a successful operation!

        1. It’s successful… as far as Democratic political strategy is concerned: it’s sowing division, justifying massive new government spending, impoverishing the US, and destroying America’s reputation abroad.

    2. “A couple days ago Reason ran an article saying anyone questioning the vetting is beyond the pale Evil Nativist because the only ones coming into the US were SIV. ”

      My vetting policy is simple. No one with aluminum tubes is to be given refuge.

      1. Was that supposed to be funny? It failed.

        1. No doubt your vetting policy, whatever it is, is the real joke.

          1. Was that meant to be insightful? Pee Wee Herman had better comebacks than that.

            1. And now Mtrueman is back on mute, I gave him a chance to be a grownup and make an intellectually honest argument, and of course he failed

              1. I don’t even mute constant bullshitters like trueman, but this is an actual, not-pulled-from-context quote:

                mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
                “Spouting nonsense is an end in itself.”

                He presumes his idiocy will be mistaken for profundity; he is due every bit of derision he gets here, and far more. Egotistical, stupid and smug describes trueman to a T.

            2. “Was that meant to be insightful? ”

              It was meant to be a ‘barb’ or cutting rejoinder. You really need this explained to you, obtusemedic76?

              1. As mentioned; egotistical, stupid and smug. His mommy lied and told him he was clever.

  30. One of the best professors I ever had wrote “Democracy isn’t right for everyone!” on the board the first day. That statement has never been proven to be more correct than in Afghanistan. It’s hard to build a democracy from scratch in a country that has never had one and where many people are still in a day to day struggle to survive.

    We should never have tried. We are not good at it.

    1. ““Democracy isn’t right for everyone!”

      Poppycock! This is just something neocons say to explain away their failures. Afghanistan is an obvious example, the attempt to rig the elections in Palestine against Hamas, is another.

      1. mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
        “Spouting nonsense is an end in itself.”

        trueman proves it again.

  31. The problem is that we successfully built, or rebuilt, West Germany, Italy, and Japan after WWII. That included clearing fascists out of their governments and large businesses, and creating new governments following the model of non-sectarian representative democracy.

    Maybe that was the instance of lightning in a bottle.

    But, the problem goes back to WWI. The British redraw the map of the Islamic world and created countries where they had not existed, based on geography and ignoring cultures, differing views of Islam, etc.

    The Middle East and the rest of the world is still suffereing.

    1. We bombed the shit out of Germany and Japan. It takes total war and breaking the enemy population’s will. We don’t wage that kind of war anymore… except our governments on their own citizens.

    2. We tried to de-Nazify Germany under the Marshall plan originally but it failed because the civil servants were all members of the Nazi party, so Marshall changed the plan and allowed former Nazis to renounce the party and resume their former tasks.
      The reason it worked for former Axis powers is because they were all advanced cultures with a history of a strong central government that we could use for social infrastructure to build on. The also had a lot of infrastructure that needed repaired but was still operational or easily brought operational. And the third factor that almost never gets mentioned is that all the former Axis powers now had a bigger enemy to worry about, the USSR, which gave them further incentives to work with the conquering allied powers.

      1. It should also be noted that in Iraq from 2003-2007 we repeated the mistakes of the early Marshall plan by trying to de-Baathify Iraq, but just as in Germany,we found out that the civil servants all belonged to the Ba’ath party and the only way to make the lights work so to say was allowing former Ba’athist to resume the former jobs.

        1. I pointed that out in 2007 on Reason during the discussion about the Iraq surge.

      2. The reason it worked for former Axis powers is because they were all advanced cultures with a history of a strong central government that we could use for social infrastructure to build on

        But did it really work? Germany is back to its collectivists and authoritarian ways and now dominating the entire EU (or what’s left of it). About half of Germans are going to vote for socialists or fascists in the upcoming election.

    3. Japan and Germany were “countries” as the term is understood. Afghanistan has a capital, perhaps 300 sq mi around that under the government’s influence and maybe 5-8 more cities in similar circumstances.
      And all else are tribal lands, under the influence of local chieftains who are not about to turn over any degree of power to ideals espoused by heretical foreigners.

    4. Germany rebuilt themselves after they abandoned price controls and let the free market work..versus the Brits who “won” and had much much less of their nation bombed yet were in a state of depression for decades after falling behind Germany in industrial production after they adopted socialism…the Marshall plan was a waste of money

      1. Germany rebuilt themselves after they abandoned price controls and let the free market work.

        Germany has an industry-friendly public policy, but given its taxes and regulations, it’s absurd to call its markets “free”. In fact, according to its own economists and political scientists, Germany has a “social market economy”, not a “free market economy”. And Germany does not have any kind of classical liberalism, it has “ordoliberalism”, as in “Ordnung!”, and it doesn’t have much of that even.

    5. “based on geography and ignoring cultures, differing views of Islam, etc. ”

      Also based on the location of the home turf of princes friendly to British interests.

      1. Yeah, both Japan and Germany had princes friendly to Brit interests.
        Sorta like trueman has brains.

        1. Should we tell him that the Kaiser abdicated in 1918, a full generation before the second world war? Or if he is referring to the first world war should we inform him that Kaiser Wilhelm the 2nd and King Edward detested each other despite being cousins?

          1. trueman is immune to being educated; he truly is an egotistical, stupid, smug piece of shit.
            You mute assholes like trueman; got no problem with that. I don’t; they simply get a response which they deserve; turd, trueman, Tony, Lord of Shit, commie-shit, the lot.
            And given that they get what they deserve, there is no effort to make the responses civil. They get *exactly* what they deserve.
            Some time back, it dawned on me that those who are trying to grab the wallet out of my pocket are not due a ‘please don’t do that’; they are due a knee to the balls, physically or verbally.
            That’s what they get and I’m truly sorry I can’t make it physically painful for all of them; they deserve nothing other.

          2. Oh, BTW, it was Ike’s kid’s book on the Bulge which had him admonishing Patton to “not be fatuous…”

  32. No Afgans were hanging on the wings of fighter jets..they were on C17 transports..that is a big miss you should have caught when proof reading or at least the editor at Reason should have caught that.

    Oh and not a mention of Ron Paul? I don’t get Reason..the guy did more for libertarian view of non intervention than Gary Johnson or “libertarian” Bill Weld..but Dr Paul is against abortion and god forbid had a marriage that would be considered pretty mainstream and is a Christian..but no its all about open borders, abortion and having Govt force acceptance in private interactions of men or women deciding their biology doesn’t determine their sex and demand to compete or attend gender specific things (like a bathroom)…

    1. Wow, this sex/gender stuff has really gotten your goat. Afghanistan to bathrooms in two sentences.

      1. Afghanistan, for the most part does not have bathrooms. They have Porta-Johns or holes in the ground. With the exception of a few westernized cities.

        However don’t Judge Ron Paul on this single persons rant. The point is that Ron Paul, Rand Paul and even Reagan were closer to real deal libertarians then today’s libertarian party.

        1. trueman is an idiot troll trying to draw attention to his pathetic and entirely ignored blog. Don’t pay it any nevermind.

    2. Why don’t you people and the Taliban all gather in Kabul and discuss all your agreements on gender roles and then you stay there.

      1. Shitstain’s drunk again. Or still.
        Certainly still looking for some, ANY, way to diver attention from droolin’ Joe’s colossal fuck up.

        1. Such sincere grief for the dead, I’m sure.

          1. Shitstain offers such desired ignorance of and apologetics for those who are causing the deaths!
            Standard operation for proggy piles of shit: Let’s se if we can get the messenger blamed for reporting out fuck ups!
            A couple of other lefty shit piles were here earlier whining that some of of spent too much time calling them and droolin’ Joe on his colossal FUBAR!
            Methinks thou doth protest too much, steaming pile of lefty shit.

          2. And genuine anger toward those responsible expressed in a monotone voice while reading from a teleprompter.

            1. Anger is what got us in this mess.

              1. Shitstain is hoping to deflect attention from his an droolin’ Joe’s STUPIDITY.

              2. Senator Biden’s anger and senility to team up with Bush and Cheney on this.

              3. Uncomprehending phonetic vocalizations of telepromter text aren’t doing much to get us out safely either.

                But it seems that is all Biden is capable of doing.

    3. Poor T-talitarian Party lewsers *SOB* Sockpuppet cry about mean libertarians kicking sand in poor sharia-law infiltrator girl-bullier’s face. Makes me so sad I must send money to an unaffiliated county libertarian party. Oh, and mute whiner!

  33. Replace Steve with Scott Horton or Dave Smith regarding foreign policy..no wiff of neocons with them.

  34. Wife has NBCCBSCNNMSNBCPBS on; looks like droolin’ Joe decided to restart the 20-year war: Air strikes in Kabul.

    1. Unfortunately Sleepy Joe’s fuckup has left “caning the wogs” as the only thing to do.

      If only someone knew which wogs need caning.

      The sorry, sad fact is that this whole thing has been a consequence of the progressive do-gooder worldview that requires the woke people of the world to guide and improve their inferiors (the lesser races, as it were).

      1. Lest we forget, one of the under-appreciated motivations of the Bush administration was its desire to do actual holy war. That’s why it wanted to go into the unrelated country Iraq so badly. You know, where Babylon is?

        Such silly, sad fucks with their bedtime stories.

        I suppose imperialism and wokeness could be compared in an extremely strained way. But your team did start this mess.

        1. Lest we forget shitstain’s attempt to deflect attention from his and droolin’ Joe’s assholery hopes that we all ignore Joe’s constant support of the war from day one as a congress-critter and then a VP, added to his support for Obo’s brand new wars.
          It’s obvious that shitstain is not capable of understanding even history from 20 years ago (perhaps the pathetic piece of shit is drunk again?), but the hopes the rest of us will buy his steaming pile of shit is….
          Certainly workable with other lefty assholes.

          1. Hey, shitstain! Please get someone to kick you in the balls tonight to reward you for your stupidity.

          2. I sleep well knowing at least I never supported Donald fucking Trump to be in charge of the US armed forces.

            1. I’m sure you sleep well knowing you voted for droolin’ Joe, who is currently fucking up his fist major mid-east effort in degrees few thought possible!
              Fuck off and die, shitstain.

        2. Subscribe to Reason! See one nameless communist sockpuppet outwit six nameless Sharia-law-abiding, girl-bullying redneck sockpuppets. Ordure-flinging! Hissy fits! Personality slurs! Coathanger-throwing! Offer void where prohibited.

          1. Or watch as Hank once again proves how much he needs his meds

  35. “Libertarians Correctly Predicted the Afghanistan Fiasco”

    So did conservatives and anyone else not brainwashed by the woke cult.

  36. So nothing about the air strike in Kabul? Local news I guess.

  37. Osama bin Laden, I had not heard this name for a long time, many bad memories came back to my mind…

    1. “Of course I knew your father. He really liked killing children. Would you like some blue milk?”

  38. How badly has Biden fucked up our “withdrawal”?
    So badly that the “withdrawal” now has an additional 1,000 troops sent INTO Afghanistan! Now, that is a truly fucked up “withdrawal”!
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/biden-authorizes-1-000-more-troops-to-be-sent-to-afghanistan/ar-AANkfie?ocid=uxbndlbing

  39. I just read about the equipment left behind in Afghanistan. They were flying people out to evacuated them, yet they left 4 C130 transport planes and a shit ton of helicopters there. Literally just tell the pilots that you were loading onto another plane, fuel your bird up, get as many of our people on it as you can and take off!

  40. Our ‘loss’ was a foregone conclusion, since that is the only alternative to winning; isn’t it? Then again, we were not at “war” so there was nothing to ‘win’; and that’s the key. If Congress did not ‘declare war’ we are not at ‘war’, and that is the only ‘check’ we need, to prevent this r5om happening.

    This all began in Korea, 70 years ago.

  41. Almost everyone predicted it. The only way to stop an enemy like the Taliban is relentless, merciless war. Total war without caring at all about civilian or other deaths like we did with Japan. However, we will always lose these wars because we don’t do that any longer. Therefore we shouldn’t try. I predict within 5-10 years there will be just as many ISIS in Afghanistan as there were in Iraq. The Taliban will seem like moderate Islamists in comparison. We should never have been there and gotten Bin Laden via limited strikes and special forces as we ultimately did. Intelligence is the only way to limit them. They are nuts and there are tens of millions of them in the middle east and central asia waiting to die for the their “religion of peace”. We should never occupy a place again unless we are willing to be ruthless.

  42. Obviously libertarians have been right about Afghanistan, and the American public have come around to this way of thinking.
    Libertarians are missing out on important validation on many current issues, take a lesson from Trump and start tooting your own horn.
    Government schools are a train wreck. Yes, there’s a number of articles in Reason on the corona fumbling, but an entire generation of conservatives and even Bill Mahar style liberals are noticing schools and colleges are more about indoctrination than whatever it is they thought schools were for. Separation of school and state has never been more attainable. Only libertarians can forward this issue.
    Public health is widely being panned. Why do we debate the nuances of this issue? There should not even be public health, health care is not in the constitution, it should be between a free person and their doctor. Period. Big fat libertarian told-you-so should be making the rounds.
    Foreign aid? Anyone think we ought to be sending bundles of money overseas when the likes of the NIH is funding who-knows-what in China? No more foreign aid. Period.
    Good job to the author.

  43. The Taliban held full control of Kabul’s international airport Tuesday after the last U.S. plane left its runway, marking the end of America’s longest war and leaving behind a now-quiet airfield and Afghans outside it still hoping to flee the insurgents’ rule.

    Vehicles raced back and forth along the Hamid Karzai International Airport’s sole runway on the northern military side of the airfield. Before dawn broke, heavily armed Taliban fighters walked through hangars on the military side, passing some of the seven CH-46 helicopters the State Department used in its evacuations before rendering them unflyable.
    https://worldabcnews.com/taliban-take-control-of-now-quiet-kabul-airport-after-u-s-withdrawal/

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