Citing Rising COVID-19 Cases, L.A. County Reimposes a General Mask Mandate and Threatens Additional Restrictions

Requiring inoculated people to wear masks does not seem like a sensible or effective response, and it could deter vaccination.


Los Angeles County, the country's most populous local jurisdiction, yesterday reimposed a general face mask mandate for people in indoor public places, whether or not they have been vaccinated against COVID-19. The Department of Public Health cited recent increases in cases, most of which involve the especially contagious delta variant of the coronavirus.

"This is an all-hands-on-deck moment," said L.A. County Health Officer Muntu Davis, who warned that further restrictions may be necessary if cases continue to rise. "Community transmission of COVID-19 has rapidly increased from Moderate to Substantial, based on the trend in daily new cases of COVID-19," the health department says. "Wearing a mask when indoors reduces the risk of both getting and transmitting the virus. This additional layer of protection can help to slow the spread and does not limit business occupancy and operations."

It seems quite unlikely that the marginal benefit from requiring vaccinated people to wear face masks, which contradicts current advice from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), is worth the burden it imposes on them. The mask order, which takes effect just before midnight on Saturday, could even undermine public health by weakening the incentive to get vaccinated.

"While emerging data affirms that fully vaccinated people are well protected from severe infections with Delta variants," the health department says, "people with only one vaccine are not as well-protected, and there is evidence that a very small number of fully vaccinated individuals can become infected and may be able to infect others." As CDC Director Rochelle Walensky has noted, the evidence indicates not only that vaccinated people are unlikely to be infected but also that the rare cases of "breakthrough" infections involve relatively low viral loads. That means vaccinated people are unlikely to pass on the virus even if they defy the odds by becoming infected.

According to a Los Angeles Times tally, the seven-day average of newly identified cases in L.A. County rose sixfold between June 15 and July 15, from fewer than 200 to more than 1,000. While that's a big increase, the current average is still 93 percent lower than the number reported in mid-January. Hospitalizations also are on the rise, although daily deaths remain far below the levels seen earlier this year. Between December 7 and June 7, the Times notes, "the unvaccinated accounted for 99.6% of L.A. County's coronavirus cases, 98.7% of COVID-19 hospitalizations and 99.8% of deaths."

The health department does not cite any evidence that vaccinated people have contributed to the upward trend in cases by transmitting the virus. But since the risk that vaccinated people "may be able to infect others" is greater than zero, it figures, an "additional layer of protection" is warranted. Which makes sense, as long as you attach no weight to the discomfort and inconvenience imposed on people who have gotten their shots or the impact that the indiscriminate mandate is apt to have on people who have not been vaccinated yet.

For young, healthy residents who understand that they face little personal risk from COVID-19, the freedom to eschew masks may be one of the most appealing aspects of vaccination. So far 61 percent of Los Angeles County residents 16 or older are fully vaccinated, and this mask rule does not seem like a good strategy for pushing that number up.

COVID-19 cases are rising not just in Los Angeles County but across the state and the country. In California, the seven-day average (per Worldometer) has tripled since June 15, from fewer than 1,000 cases to more than 3,000. That is still 93 percent lower than the number recorded in mid-January. The seven-day average of daily deaths, 23 as of yesterday, is down 96 percent since late January. Nationwide, the seven-day average of newly identified cases more than doubled between June 15 and July 15, but it is still down 95 percent since mid-January. The seven-day average of daily deaths has risen slightly from a week ago, but it remains 92 percent lower than the number reported in late January.

It's true that Los Angeles County has seen a bigger increase in COVID-19 cases than many other parts of the country. But that does not mean forcing vaccinated people to wear face masks is a sensible or effective response, especially in the absence of evidence that they are playing a significant role in that trend.

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  1. Masks are the new religion, and this is from someone who masked 100% of the time last year. They are no longer necessary. If you think they are, or if you are fully vaccinated and are still scared of Covid, then man the media and the left really have done a number on you

    1. Add the otherwise immune (had it and recovered, now with real antibodies) to the group whom, if they are still scared of Covid, then the media and the left really have done a number on. Those recovered are also safe and have an extremely low probability of re-acquisition or spread even though they technically are not in the “vaccinated” group. Reject the “jabbers vs no-jabbers” as an incomplete or inaccurate distinction.

      1. Every new case that does not result in serious illness is essentially a vaccination.

        1. can’t wait for the pi beta phi variant

    2. Cases are popping up in people now that are fully vaccinated. Public health and big pharma are fighting evolution, and evolution is kicking their asses.

      1. Barely. The increase is driven by the susceptible giving it to each other. The small handful of breakthrough cases are fairly irreverent to the current “surge” (only a surge because the base was so low).

        The combination of big pharma and our own body’s immune system evolution continues to kick the virus evolution’s ass. Which makes it similar to the vast majority of diseases we have vaccines against. Influenza is the exception not the rule.

        1. ‘Pfizer COVID vaccine significantly less effective against Delta variant’

          The effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine against the Delta variant is “weaker” than health officials hoped, Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said Friday, as 855 people tested positive for coronavirus and more countries were listed as places of high infection.

          “We do not know exactly to what degree the vaccine helps, but it is significantly less,” Bennett said.

    3. Masks were never necessary, or even effective.

    4. Fear is the currency of control. Crisis, either real or manufactured is the motivation of “fear porn” which takes control (and therefore power to new heights). Our government, thanks to the constitution is slightly better than those of other countries.
      How much longer is this to be the case?
      Hail Cuba, it only took 56 years, while it took the Russians 72 years. The New World is better than the old!

      Freedom is best!!!

    5. Yup. Meanwhile Georgia never had lockdowns or mask mandates and we go around conducting business without masks or vaccines and everything is fine.

      I havent worn a mask during this hysteria and havent been sick in two years.

      The upshot is the average American is being pushed into civil war 2.0 on the side of liberty or their death.

      1. People may want to consider:

        Who is it that benefits from perpetuating this farce ad infinitum (weekly social distancing mandates, requiring people to get vaccines that aren’t properly licensed, periodically deciding what businesses get to continue to operate)?

        Make no mistake, there are epic levels of government picking winners and losers going on in the world right now because of this Covid bullshit. Epic levels of corruption are the invariable result. Could some journalistic entity please start paying attention and follow the fucking money?

  2. >>But that does not mean forcing vaccinated people to wear face masks is a sensible or effective response

    forcing *any* people to wear face masks is insensible and ineffective.

  3. The whole purpose is signaling. The people who are still wearing masks, despite being vaccinated, are signaling their enthusiastic obedience, and by not getting vaccinated, some people are signaling their disobedience to the bureaucrats. Progressives can’t let people get away with disobedience.

    They want to punish people who didn’t get vaccinated for defying the authority of the experts (regardless of whether the experts were wrong), and they’re punishing the vaccinated, too (the ones who weren’t wearing masks because they were vaccinated) for the same reason the boot camp sergeant in Full Metal Jacket punished the whole platoon for Private Pyle’s donut.

    The regulations said you couldn’t have a donut in the barracks, and the experts said you had to wear a mask. If Private Pyle won’t listen to authority, then maybe he’ll listen to the rage of the people have to suffer because of his disobedience. If the unvaccinated won’t do as they’re told, then the progressives who run California will just go full retard.

    Besides, if they changed course now, amid rising infection rates among the unvaccinated because of the delta variant, it might seem like the experts were wrong about something, and we can’t have that. It might seem like Private Pyle or the unvaccinated were making the rules now–and they obviously can’t suffer that either.

    So the beatings will continue until morale improves.

    What’s the point of being a progressive politician or an expert bureaucrat if you can’t lord over people?

    1. “they’re punishing the vaccinated, too (the ones who weren’t wearing masks because they were vaccinated) for the same reason the boot camp sergeant in Full Metal Jacket punished the whole platoon for Private Pyle’s donut.”

      Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
      Holy Jesus! What is that? What the f*** is that? WHAT IS THAT, PRIVATE PYLE?

      Private Gomer Pyle:
      Sir, a jelly doughnut, sir!

      Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
      A jelly doughnut?

      Private Gomer Pyle:
      Sir, yes, sir!

      Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
      How did it get here?

      Private Gomer Pyle:
      Sir, I took it from the mess hall, sir!

      Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
      Is chow allowed in the barracks, Private Pyle?

      Private Gomer Pyle:
      Sir, no, sir!

      Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
      Are you allowed to eat jelly doughnuts, Private Pyle?

      Private Gomer Pyle:
      Sir, no, sir!

      Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
      And why not, Private Pyle?

      Private Gomer Pyle:
      Sir, because I’m too heavy, sir!

      Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
      Because you are a disgusting fat body, Private Pyle!

      Private Gomer Pyle:
      Sir, yes, sir!

      Being a Disgusting Fatbody is also a high-risk factor for severe reaction to the Covid. Best to ban them from indoor spaces in LA because the risk to them is more than zero.

      1. Full Metal Jacket is a movie that is too smart for most people. Everyone likes to laugh at all the times Sgt. Hartman shouts at Pvt. Lawrence because Lawrence is fat and stupid, but no one seems to get that Hartman is not supposed to be the sympathetic character, Lawrence is. His torment isn’t supposed to be funny. It’s supposed to be horrifying and Lawrence’s eventual breakdown is supposed to punch you in the gut.

        1. It’s also quite a kick to the stomach as to what they considered fat and disgusting. That dude would be skinny today.

          1. Not in the Marines.

            1. In the “Balloon Platoon”

        2. Hartman’s tactics had a purpose. Pyle’s laziness, stupidity and unfitness was going to get others killed. Hartman succeeded too well in making Pyle a lean, mean, fightin’ machine.

          1. He made it!

            He turned an average, overweight guy into a Marine.

            My understanding is that people cracking up under the pressure–especially back then–wasn’t exactly rare.

          2. Well the point being that war strips everyone involved of their humanity. So yes, but that’s not a good thing in the movie’s view. I think the movie was intelligent enough to recognize that Hartman was a victim of the war as much as anyone else.

            He was trying to make warriors out of the recruits so that they would have a better chance of surviving as much as being effective at killing, just like real drill sergeants. But the movie argues that’s this is still a perverse retooling of humanity. The idea that you are “fighting for your brother” is a veneer used to take human virtues in soldiers and use those virtues to motivate them to accomplish more cynical political goals that have nothing to do with protecting each other.

            Hence, stripping them of that humanity, directly or indirectly. Whether or not you agree with the point of the movie is another issue, of course. Like all antiwar movies, it probably makes its point too well without ever examining if those cynical political aims have any merit or if the people formulating them at least sincerely beleived they do.

        3. Ermey was just too good at the role and had too many good lines. And I’m pretty sure it was supposed to be funny. In a very dark way without the Sgt. being the sympathetic character.

          1. It was in many ways a tactic real DIs use. They’re trying to train concentration and composure. If you can’t concentrate when someone is yelling at you, how do you do in combat with bullets flying and people yelling over the din? At the same time, if you can’t concentrate when someone’s saying the most ridiculous things ever, or through any other distractions…

            The idea is to learn to ferret out the signal from the noise. And, frankly, DIs are goddamned hilarious.

            That actor was a DI, and MADE the role all too real.

            The mental breakdown was pure melodrama, but there’s a reality in things as basic as teaching someone who doesn’t know how, literally, how to lace his boots. The boot camp system starts with everyone knowing nothing. Period. Everyone is equally worthless, they’re told so, and taught absolutely everything so no skill is missed by anyone. Then their confidence builds as they learn each task.

            He was so good at the brutal DI role he almost stole the first half of the movie away from that.

            1. Ermey was originally not cast in a role, and was just a technical advisor. He was demonstrating for the actor who was supposed to play Hartman how a DI should deliver a dressing down, improvising everything along the way, and Kubric decided the only way it was going to work is if he recast the role with Ermey and let him do it all himself

              1. Career making role, for sure. Great decision on Kubric’s part.

                I kind of wonder in the modern world if people understand the role of the military, especially prior to WWII, as a core of professionals meant to be expanded when and event like WWII occurred.

                After Pearl harbor, the Marines grew from tens of thousands in the 1930s to half a million men on active duty in 1945. I think they ran 600 or 700 thousand men through MCRD and Perris Island. during the war . Army was 175,000 in 1939 and grew to nearly 12 million. (I can’t remember exact numbers). They were training people who were functionally illiterate, people who were literal barefoot yokels, people who grew up during the depression and never had anything but a farm job or no job at all. They couldn’t assume someone knew how to wear boots, just as they couldn’t assume a city boy knew how to maintain a rifle.

                Military is all volunteer now, and people are better educated than WWi or WWII eras, but you can’t assume. One day when you need everyone, not just the guy who scores highest on the ASVAB, you’re gonna’ get an occasional recruit who needs to be taught to wipe his ass.

            2. I’m not a military man myself, but that makes sense.

              1. Keep in mind, these techniques have been used for centuries, at least as far back as when Maurice of Nassau re-introduced small-unit formations and drill during the Eighty Years War. The Prussians in particular were notorious for how abusive they were to their soldiers, because that kind of discipline was considered necessary to keep everyone in line and ready to fight.

                1. Yea, but we’re going to have a totes more effective military now that recruits get cards to hold up in boot to force the DI to stop if he’s being too mean

                  1. And allowing transsexuals to serve, among other things.

            3. And he really did steal the first half of the movie. It’s almost like it’s two movies. Though Kubrick was into that sort of thing too.

          2. Ermey was just too good at the role and had too many good lines. And I’m pretty sure it was supposed to be funny.

            It’s fucking hilarious. Every single person who’s made it through basic laughs their ass off at Ermey ripping these guys apart, because we saw all this shit when we went through it ourselves. It’s funny as hell when you see drill instructors blasting a recruit who’s screwed up. It sucks when it’s happening to you. That’s just one of the reasons the movie is so popular with military folks, even though it’s ostensibly an anti-war movie.

        4. “no one seems to get that Hartman is not supposed to be the sympathetic character, Lawrence is.”

          I have a similar complaint about Apocalypse Now.

          Kurtz hasn’t gone insane.

          Kurtz is a liberal and an elitist, and he never stops being one. In fact, it’s the depth of his commitment to his principles that drives him to go farther than brass back at HQ.

          He’s not insane.

          But his methods are supposedly “unsound”.

          They’re far less crazy than taking out a village to go surfing, or, symbolically or otherwise, bringing playmates to perform in the middle of hell.

          1. When neocons advocate for and order this stuff, they may or may not realize what a full commitment their principles will take in practice.

            Kurtz did.

            They call him insane for taking his principles seriously. It isn’t his methods that are unsound. It’s the principles he shares with the military brass that are unsound.

        5. The thing is, Lawrence doesn’t actually break until the blanket party. It’s not Hartman’s fault he turned into a psychopath, it was the platoon of recruits.

        6. Military DI use to break you down to fit a military system of hierarchy when american individualism was the norm.

          Now a bunch of millennials and gen Zers are sheeple all ready, so training time outs and other nonsense are allowed which only serves to weaken our military against professional and deadly militaries like the commie Chinese.

          American commies are a clear and present danger to American liberty.

    2. California lifted the mask mandate 4 weeks ago.
      90% of shoppers are still wearing them.
      I don’t think most of them are afraid of COVID.
      I think they are afraid people will think they are Republicans.

      1. I think they’re afraid some nutter is going to toss a can of red paint on them. Which may be the same fear, come to think of it.

        Yesterday I stopped into a grocery store, in California, that actually had the sign saying “no need for a mask if you are vaccinated”. About half the shoppers, including myself, were masked. The WORKERS were not masked, which I found very strange all things considering. I do not begrudge them that, however. Wearing a mask for a nine hour shift must suck.

        p.s. Yes I still wear a mask. But only when in a store or in the common areas at my workplace. I most certainly do not wear it while walking dog and taking out the trash. And quite frankly, only about one in ten people do the latter. I worry about them.

        p.p.s. I don’t wear a mask because I feel I’m in danger, I wear a mask because I was asked to by the business. They ask me to wear shirt and shoes then I will wear shirt and shoes. I even wear shirt and shoes while in a restaurant that doesn’t require shirt and shoes. As long as there’s the expectation by most people in my area to wear a mask while shopping, or shirt and shoes while dining, I will voluntarily comply. I mean, duh.

        1. They said it wasn’t necessary.
          You did it anyway.
          You are signaling, plain and simple.

      2. A great observation. I know fully vaccinated people who always show up with their masks on outside in the desert when it is 110.

      3. I’ve asked this before, but what part of the state are you in? I don’t need specifics.

        But, here, almost nobody wears masks. I mentioned a small number at the store last time I noticed you said this, I went shopping since and ONE person in the whole store had a mask on. So, one out of 20. I’m coastal. Go inland and it’s even less.

        It’s a big state. Most of us are NOT San Francisco.

    3. While I agree a mask mandate especially at this stage isn’t going to do Jack, your claim that rising spread among the unvaccinated proves the experts wrong makes no sense. Vaccines are far and away the most effective means of suppressing this virus so it makes total sense you’d only see continuing spread among the unvaccinated.

  4. Aargh. “Cases” mean nothing. How many people are getting sick? Stop testing healthy people!

    1. In LA County, 100% of the patients hospitalized for COVID were not fully vaccinated.

      1. I’ve heard that before and its a useless point except to verify that the vaccine works which only tells us that mask for vaccinated is not needed and therefore is purely for signaling purity to our overlords.

    2. Even the blue-state college where I work isn’t testing people.

  5. Community transmission of COVID-19 has rapidly increased from Moderate to Substantial

    They should just bring back the color wheel. That thing was great at increasing vigilance against terrorism.

    1. California already did. Every county got a color code, and it changed every few weeks, and people mostly ignored it, except businesses who had to comply with the changing rules.

    2. Give me a moment while I look up what “taupe” means.

    3. 1 person get it then another person gets it, shit its 100% increase in rate lets shut the whole thing down. I want actual numbers not metaphores

  6. According to the graph in the paper this morning, LA’s infection rate has “soared” to to 10 people/100,000.
    That’s right, we need masks because 1/100 of 1% are diagnosed as infected. Not being treated, not hospitalized, not dead, diagnosed.

    1. With a test that is inappropriate for diagnostic purposes.

    2. Meanwhile a heart issue rare in kids, 1 in 100000 has increased to 1 in 4000 during vaccine trials.

  7. Of course they have to do it if you’re vaxxed because every asshole not getting the vaccine pretends they have when they go out by refusing to wear a mask.

    Another example of shitheads ruining something for everyone.

    1. It’s been 18 months. at some point you’re going to have to admit that the emergency has passed, that no government policy or cultural change is going to stop recurring cycles of COVID, and that all of this NPI pantomime just serves to steal time and energy from more productive uses.

      1. And also realize that if the masks didn’t stop it last year, they won’t stop it this year either.

      2. But there is a cultural change that could make things better: if all the people refusing to be vaccinated for partisan reasons would just go get vaccinated, so we could reach herd immunity.

        1. Things are better; for some reason people are unwilling to declare victory and move on. I’ve seen what a second and third wave in an unvaccinated population looks like after a largely uncontrolled peak; it’s perfectly tolerable.

          At some point you need to be comfortable with people (mis)assessing their own risk and the acute care system responding as the need arises. Unless you have a local population that was totally unexposed for the past year plus and is totally unwilling to get vaccinated then COVID is just another disease that existing infrastructure should be able to absorb (capacity is built around flu season peaks; following initial exposure, i.e. vaccination, COVID is just replacing the flu).

          1. Don’t disagree, but getting vaccinated is a simple thing people could do, with no downside.

            1. …. with no downside.
              So far.

            2. “Don’t disagree, but getting vaccinated is a simple thing people could do, with no downside.”

              None of your business, asshole.

            3. Well, it had a downside for the people who died from it.
              The vaccines have definitely proven effective, and the short term risk has been fairly low, but not zero. If you’re in a low risk group (i.e. most people), you may want to consider the relative costs and benefits. If you’re in a high risk group, or interface with them regularly, get the shot anyway.
              The long term risk is unknown.

              1. The long term risk of getting COVID is equally unknown.

        2. Beating white Mike to death would be best.
          Anyone care to post his personal address?

        3. “But there is a cultural change that could make things better:..”

          Yes, there is. Fucking TDS-addled assholes like you could fuck off and die.

        4. Hear immunity can also be reached by people getting covid with 99% of them not even knowing they have it. we never had a vaccine for teh spanish flue and no one worries about it anymore

          1. Can you cite a source?

            1. its in the news look it up yourself

              1. You may not be aware that your description of what you heard is pretty vague. That’s why I wanted to see the source; to see what they really said.

                1. I don’t have actual citations either.
                  As a medical doctor it’s pretty much common knowledge that 50% of infections will be completely asymptomatic.
                  Out of the other 50% of infections, the death rate will average 0.5% over all age groups.
                  The only deaths we see are those over 70, and those younger with pre-existing medical conditions.
                  It seems to me that corona should’ve been treated with quarantine and masking of the high-risk populations and the rest of the public including school children should have gone about their business.
                  A lot like the nation of Sweden did

            2. Just look at the death or hospitalization stats for NYC. They were more or less at herd immunity a year ago. No real second wave. In fact, most places that had a big outbreak last winter/spring had very little in the way of a second wave. As far as I can see, most of the supposed second and third waves were first waves in places that hadn’t really had it very bad yet.

              1. Mike is a naturally codependent, obedient, utter piece of shit totalitarian, so he desires for others to be forced with the threat of violence to comply with his vicarious will.
                You’re ridiculously charitable to leftists, zeb.

        5. We’ve already passed herd immunity.

        6. What were the swine flu vaccination rates in the spring of 2010?

    2. “Of course they have to do it if you’re vaxxed because every asshole not getting the vaccine pretends they have when they go out by refusing to wear a mask”

      —-raspberry tart

      To what extent do unvaccinated people benefit from wearing something other than N95 masks?

      1. The benefit is to the other people around the masked person. This was explained long ago.

        1. Other people need to look out for their health. This was explained to assholes like you long ago.

        2. If the other folks are vaccinated then what the unvaccinated person does is irrelevant.

          As someone who did get vaccinated despite my great dislike of needles, I have totally had it with changing my behavior in an attempt to protect unvaccinated folks from each other. Nearly everyone who doesn’t get the vaccine is going to end up getting COVID. If they don’t choose to get vaccinated they are effectively choosing to get their immunity via infection. Fine. I respect that choice. Let’s make it happen now, not when hospitals are dealing with flu season, and stop bothering the folks who are immune.

          1. None of this is about health, and never was.

    3. But enough about Democrats.

    4. I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Everyone who isn’t vaccinated has had an opportunity to get vaccinated and has declined. (Set aside the minute number of people who can’t get the vaccine for some medical reason.)

      Some people aren’t going to get vaccinated because they don’t believe they are at risk of serious consequences from the virus. In many, many cases (anyone under 30, let’s say), they are absolutely, irrefutably, factually, and scientifically correct.

      Even if you’re 80 and obese, at this point, it’s your decision to weigh the risks and determine what you want to do.

      Mask mandates aren’t going to do anything but irritate people and disincentivize people to get vaccinated.

      Well… maybe they’ll help the Newsome recall effort, which could be a silver lining.

      1. “I’m not sure what you’re getting at.”

        It’s about getting vaccinated or wearing a mask to help _other_ people, not yourself.

        1. Your health is your concern, not mine, asshole.

          1. But it is your concern.
            Mike is cancer, and the spread of that cancer will ruin your life.
            Kill or be killed.

        2. Masks are useless. How do you not know that?

        3. They don’t even do that, as evidenced by all the people that have caught and/or spread it after being vaccinated and for the entire year where people were wearing masks everywhere.

    5. Another example of a faggot leftie shit for brains pissing all over this forum. Fuck off Tony.

    6. “…every asshole..”
      Posted by asshole-in-chief.
      Fuck off and die, slaver.

    7. If it was anywhere but CA you might have a point, but the government of CA has wholeheartedly embraced the vaccine passport concept and is fully capable of weeding out the “pretenders” and forcing them to wear a mask while leaving the vaccinated alone

    8. Poor commies. They cant control people in red states like Georgia and it drives them crazy with rage.

      I dont wear a mask ever and wont get a vaccine to a virus that is less deadly than influenza. I dont even get an influenza vaccine.

      Lefties dreams of American becoming commie overall have failed and will continue to fail, civil war 2.0 that democrats started is here and wont end well for lefty democrats (again).

    9. What are they ruining for you or anyone else? Are anti mask, anti vaccine or anti lockdown people stopping you from masking, taking the vaccine or locking yourself in your own home and shuttering your own business? Of course not yet you aren’t reciprocating and letting the other side make their own choices and risk/liberty tradeoffs. So how are they the assholes ruining everything for others but not you?
      If you think covid is horribly dangerous, you have every right to live the rest of your life in an underground bunker like a cowardly mole. Forcing others to drastically alter their lives for your cowardice and paranoia makes you the asshole.
      And unless you’re well over 70 and/or have serious preexisting conditions, COVID IS NOT STATISTICALLY DANGEROUS! Every piece of data on covid cases, hospitalizations and deaths from the past year and a half says that quite clearly. It’s sad, but a fact of life that old and sick people die, it’s what they do and always have with and without covid. Once upon a time before this country was largely hysteric cowards people understood that. Covid is the worst overreaction to an insignificant problem in the history of mankind, hands down!

      1. Very well said!

  8. There is no more need for any means of ‘flattening the curve’ (assuming that there is actually some pressure on hospitals/etc). Because there is now an entirely voluntary means of rationing medical admissions to hospitals if those clog up and hit max capacity – ie no vaccination, no admission – period.

    1. I’m going to run that idea past my ops & compliance folks. I’m sure it will be the start of a productive conversation.

    2. Mmmm, taste the authoritarianism.

      I suppose you think we should do the same during flu season?

      1. Yeah, he has the morality of a reptile.

        They bought their plane tickets.
        They know what they were getting into.
        I say, let them crash!

        1. That’s pretty disrespectful, Ken. I think you owe the reptiles an apology.

        2. hahaha. Looks like my solution is perfect. Thank you for the great idea about the public service announcement

          1. Idiot.

      2. Of course he does. And hay fever season.

      3. You just the flu folks remain stupid – and freeloaders to boot.

        There is only one legitimate reason for those npi’s – to eliminate the risk of hospitals grinding to a halt because they hit capacity.

        There is only one group that is now the legitimate object of those npi’s (meaning the only group where a contagious disease is known to be potentially maxing out and breaking the medical system – the unvaccinated. The last time the flu maxed out hospital capacity anywhere was 1918.

        There is no need to target everyone else with any of this. In the event that we hit that capacity limit – ONLY the unvaccinated should be made to pay for what they themselves are now creating.

        1. There is only one legitimate reason for those npi’s – to eliminate the risk of hospitals grinding to a halt because they hit capacity.

          The risk for this in LA County is approximately….?

          This past winter the COVID control measures were probably a greater threat to capacity in my state than COVID+ patients were.

          There is no need to target everyone else with any of this. In the event that we hit that capacity limit – ONLY the unvaccinated should be made to pay for what they themselves are now creating.

          And how exactly is this supposed to work in any way that’s legal?

          1. I have no idea where LA county is with hospital capacity. As I said, this kicks in when it is there (or maybe within two weeks of capacity if that’s how long covid cases are hospitalized for on average).

            It’s entirely reasonable to pre-announce this. After all – people can vaccinate to both avoid the consequences of not being admitted to hospital and to reduce the odds of that capacity limit being hit as well as to avoid the disease itself.

            1. People who live in flood plains, near forests in California, in earthquake zones, tornado alley, near the shore where tsunamis may hit, under large trees that may fall, or involved in auto accidents should be denied any rescues or assistance because they brought it on themselves.

            2. “I have no idea where LA county is with hospital capacity…”

              You never had any idea of any capacities; you were simply more than happy to spread the panic.
              Stuff your PANIC flag up your ass, stick first, you cowardly piece of lefty shit.

            3. And that seems extremely unlikely at this point. As far as I know very few hospitals were totally swamped even during the worst of it.

              But how are you going to know who isn’t vaccinated? You going to turn someone away who’s bleeding to death because they don’t have a vaccine card with them?

              1. There were many nurses and other medical workers being furloughed. Many hospitals were on the verge of shutting down for good. Jfree is just full of shit

            4. Now do fat people who have diabetes

          2. And how exactly is this supposed to work in any way that’s legal?

            The same way it was legal in Jan 2021 when CA put in place its disaster plan for hospitals. Every state has this. My idea merely adds a criteria re who gets to go to the front of the line and who doesn’t. A criteria that is highly relevant to both the crisis and to reducing it and that is entirely the elective choice of the patient in question.

            1. Georgia doesnt have this and lefties are dying in droves in blue states. Thank god.

        2. I didn’t say it was the flu you fucking chicken little.

          But there IS a readily available vaccine for both, and people die from both, so it’s a perfect analogy.

          I bet you think those that have gotten it and survived (so like 99.4% of the people that have had it) should have to be vaccinated too.

          1. And it’s not “just the flu” anyway. The flu is a serious disease that kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. Comparison with flu isn’t dismissing anything as no big deal.

          2. It is not remotely a perfect analogy. Hospitals are NEVER remotely near capacity limit with flu. They haven’t been since 1918. So there is no need to implement anything re flu that deals with the issue of ‘how do we deal with hospital capacity problems in an emergency’.

            I bet you think those that have gotten it and survived (so like 99.4% of the people that have had it) should have to be vaccinated too.

            I don’t believe anyone must be vaccinated. It’s your choice. I’ve already stated the non-freeloaded consequences. There’s nothing honest about your specific what-if because your ilk is never honest.

            1. Nor were hospitals remotely close to capacity with this either, chicken little.

            2. The nonfree load test applies to lefties free loading off taxpayers.

              Eminent domain their property and deport them to commie china or Cuba. Use their property to pay down the national debt they want to raise. Commie americans ex pats get to enjoy the “freedoms” of the communist party rules.

              Problem solved.

    3. That’s not voluntary. And there already is a procedure in place to ration medical admissions. It’s called triage.

    4. “There is no more need for any means of ‘flattening the curve’ (assuming that there is actually some pressure on hospitals/etc)…”

      Nor was there ever. Stuff your PANIC flag up your ass, stick first, you cowardly piece of lefty shit.

    5. shall we also deny medical service to those who drink alcohol and then shall we deny medical service to the obese and unfit and then maybe we should deny medical service to those who get pregnant and didn’t use condoms. at what point will only the fit and healthy be allowed medical service, people who won’t need that service so lets just get ride of doctors all together since every illness can be linked to the failings of the patient.

      1. Well, denying it to the obese certainly would have solved most of the Covid problems in hospitals.

      2. You are certainly free to choose to fight all those battles.

        Good luck

      3. Can we doctors still be allowed to perform plastic surgery on healthy people?

    6. Because there is now an entirely voluntary means of rationing medical admissions to hospitals if those clog up and hit max capacity – ie no vaccination, no admission – period.

      Yeah, I’m sure that will go over real well in the culturally enriched neighborhoods of deep-blue Denver and Aurora that have low vaccination rates.

      1. It doesn’t matter. And they actually don’t have low vaccination rates – merely lower than the average for Denver – which is among the highest vaccination rates in CO. 72% fully vaccinated and an estimated 82% vaccinated plus prev exposed to disease.

        You can see the freeloading on a county-by-county map. The R counties have the lowest vaccination rates. They’re the ones ramping up again. They’re the ones that will run up against capacity problems the earliest. They’re the ones who traditionally transfer the serious medical patients to Denver. So they are the ones who intend to clog the Denver medical system and break it too.

        I don’t think we’ll get to that point. If we do it will be Sept when those counties break and Oct/Nov when they break Denver. But yeah this fucking freeloading game has to be stopped. Still got plenty of time to get vaccinated and the state should continue to outreach.

        But the stick is – if we hit capacity, the unvaccinated will be last in line to get into hospital. Period.

        1. On Colorado’s Front Range, your neighborhood may determine your risk of catching COVID-19
          A new report from the Colorado Health Institute tracks coronavirus’ disparate toll, with people living in diverse, low-income neighborhoods in the crosshairs

          They’re the ones ramping up again. They’re the ones that will run up against capacity problems the earliest. They’re the ones who traditionally transfer the serious medical patients to Denver. So they are the ones who intend to clog the Denver medical system and break it too.

          The whole fucking system never broke all through last year. Polis set up an entire collection of beds in the DCPA that was never used once.

          This whole idea that the Western Slope and eastern plains are going to overload and break Denver’s medical system is as fanciful as “two weeks to flatten the curve.”

          1. Not the DCPA, the convention center.

          2. The mountain counties DID break in early March 2020. That’s why those counties were shut down. I suspect the meat processing counties hit max for awhile too but idk. While it never got to the point of rolling breakage, it obviously is a possibility.

            Now that the situation re vaccine is very different, it is time to revise the emergency triage protocols for this pandemic that were discussed starting at latest by Apr 1 2020.

        2. I’m selling blank vaccination cards.
          Pre-filled out with actual lot numbers of Pfizer vaccine.
          How many do you want?

          1. If you are a ‘doctor’ so obviously willing to commit fraud and market it on these message boards, I’m sure you can find a lot of ways to make more money than that off the morons here. They are really totally stupid and gullible. Fits with your market-based venality.

            Might I suggest:
            Selling hydroxychloroquine/zinc/fentanyl/heroin. They love that shit here. Esp if you’ve got a menu with price lists.

            Fitting an RV out as a ‘mobile ICU unit’ with a ‘respiratory therapist’ (don’t forget the white lab coat – that’s what really impresses) and driving around the low-vax counties

            1. If he were doing that he would not have written it.

      1. Not necessarily. The fact that the unvax have gone ballistic here tells me they know they are just lying and playing politics with this. And relying on the freeload. Rather than forcing stupid moves like what LA is doing that become political ‘victories’ – they get their own dick caught in the lawnmower.

        1. Yea, it’s totes the people who say everyone can decide for themselves that are “playing politics and freeloading”, not the people who demand everyone else collectively live according the neurotic consensus…

        2. Ok, you’re a leftist. I wasn’t sure. The concept of individual rights doesn’t exist for you.

          1. Apparently you define ‘individual rights’ as the right to freeload and not bear the consequences of your own decisions.

    7. rationing medical admissions to hospitals if those clog up and hit max capacity – ie no vaccination, no admission – period.

      If this results in a significant reduction in homeless drug addicts clogging up ERs, I’m 100% for it. What’s that, Mr. You Can’t Even Remember Your Name Because You’re So fucking High, Let Alone Present Me With Your Vaccination Paperwork Because something something Poverty Makes It Hard to Navigate Public Life– get the fuck out of my ER or I’ll have security chuck your filthy muck out into the street.

      1. JFart doesn’t want to take his vindictive, rejection-obsessed policy in the LOLWEEDDUDE state to its logical conclusion.

        1. If one demands everyone else get vaccinated, isn’t one “freeloading”?

          1. I am not demanding that anyone get vaccinated. It’s their choice entirely.

            But they bear the consequences for that in the event that the hospital system maxes out.

      2. Go ahead. Better check with risk management before you start throwing patients into the street.

  9. Criminal and LA citizens need to revolt, remove these assholes from power permanently. Toss em in jail to cool them off for a while.

    1. There’s a recall election just two months off.

      1. The problem with the recall is it only recalls Gavin Newsom.

        1. Who, in a rare turn off events, isn’t the problem here. LA is flouting the state’s advice. Most of the state remains vaccine=no mask.

  10. One of the primary reasons why I chose to get vaccinated was so that I wouldn’t be asked to wear those damned foolish masks everywhere. I’m done with that shit.

    1. A business that requires me to mask up is a business in which I will never set foot again.

    2. I’m done with it too. And I’m not discussing whether or not I’m vaccinated with anyone.

      1. Why would I need to know? I’m immune.

        If you choose to risk getting it the natural way it doesn’t affect me. If you’re immune from having had it, it doesn’t affect me. If you were vaccinated it doesn’t affect me.

        Seriously. It doesn’t affect me. Or anyone else, except the person making their own decision, at this point.

        This is the problem. The fact that someone, somewhere, caught a highly transmissible virus is not in itself any sort of a crisis. If there are no externalities, like a lack of hospital space (which took 10x the infection rate in an unvaccinated populous 7 months ago), then it’s not my problem. Or yours. Or the government’s.

        1. Yup. And that’s why it’s nobody’s goddamn business what my own private medical decisions are.

        2. Every person who remains unvaccinated increases the risk of a new, deadly variant arising by mutation within the unvaccinated population.

          Not getting vaccinated is risking other people’s health, for no good reason. The mRNA vaccines are remarkably safe.

          1. Fuck off and die, piece of shit.

          2. It doesn’t risk anything if you believe your vaccination is helping you, so playing moral cop here gets you nothing.

            Also GFY sock.

          3. Every person who remains unvaccinated increases the risk of a new, deadly variant arising by mutation within the unvaccinated population.

            Or less deadly variant, like… what happened with the Spanish flu?

            1. People like Mike are who Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and every other collectivist totalitarian need to commit atrocities.

          4. Every person who remains unvaccinated increases the risk of a new, deadly variant arising by mutation within the unvaccinated population.

            That ceased to be anything we can do anything about over a year ago. There are close to 10,000 variants now. All over the world. The virus is not going to be eliminated.

            Whether we could have or not. Whether the West really even intended to eliminate it or not (I suspect that was the intent of Asia). Interesting questions but all merely historical now.

          5. Same is true of the flu. See 1968, 1918, etc.

            Same is true of a lot of things. But “a risk” is not the same as a high risk. And, frankly, in a nation where 2/3 of the populace has had a shot and/or gotten the virus, it is not something to worry about. At least not as much as you worry about getting struck by lightning.

            Thing is, you know that. You’re just shitposting for the sake of it. IN fact, I shouldn’t have even responded. I’mma click mute now.

            1. Not shitposting. You missed my point, which is that there is no downside to getting vaccinated.

              1. Shitposting; you do nothing else.

              2. There is a downside. Are the thousands of adverse effects all coincidences? And those are only what have been reported to the CDC. Who knows how many adverse effects are unreported?

          6. Every vaccine not used here gets exported to another country. For variant suppression, it is probably actually better for Americans to refuse the vaccine this year and have it go to countries with far higher levels of community transmission and greater susceptibility. When we get to mid 2022 and the rest of the world has as much vaccine as it wants, then we can talk about the externalities of refusing vaccination.

    3. I’ve been vaccinated since i have health issues but the facts show there is no need for a booster or for mask for those who have been vaccinated. its clearly government over reach

    4. you could have not and just lied.

    5. Appeasement merely invites more aggression

  11. Just in time for the Recall Election! Whooo!

    While it’s not Newsom doing this, people still associate the lockdown with him. So when the largest county in the state brings back lockdown, it’s not doing Newsom any good when the Recall is just around the corner.

    Vote for Bear. Bear is smarter than the average politician. Bear shits in the wood not on your rug.

    1. But since there’s no mean tweets, he’s just fine with TDS-afflicted assholes like you, right?

    2. If LA was a swing city (for the recall election) they would not be pulling this stunt.

      Newsom is going to win LA and the bay area, even if they mandate masks until Christmas. Of course, the thought is that he needs up run up the score in those places to offset any rebellion elsewhere.

      Newsom was desperate to keep the D next to his name on the ballot because some libs just vote D without ever getting into politics. Yes, there are supposedly a good amount of voters who basically vote party line without any information whatsoever.

      1. But they don’t use an electoral college, so if the recall is going to be close losing a few votes anywhere will hurt him

        Unfortunately I don’t think it will be close, Newsom will survive by a wide margin

      2. Don’t count on it. No one likes Newsom.

    3. Newsom need not worry he is handing out money left and right right up till teh elections. he is a shoe in from the votes us taxpayers are paying for.

  12. Just say NO…

    1. I think people who voluntarily get vaccinated not only for their own sakes but for the sake of others is doing the Lord’s work and deserves to be recognized for their good work. Maybe we could give them something like a gold star they could wear as a patch on their clothing to show that they are good citizens.

      Of course, to prevent people who don’t deserve to wear the gold star from swiping them and wearing them, each gold star could come with a registration number and the designated wearer could have that number tattooed on his forearm so that we can check to make sure the number matches the star.

  13. BTW, I’m listening to a podcast (I won’t link it because it’s kind of long and doesn’t have a huge amount of linkable substance– which I’m doing more digging on here) but a computer scientist has requested data from the Wa State DOH and has analyzed it, attempting to do a regression test of case positivity. Ie, the state reported that on such-and-such a date, there were X positive cases of COVID.

    According to him there’s literally nothing in the data that “proves” the cases were positive. there’s only a lab which reported back positive cases. There’s no indication on the PCR test which indicated the cycle rate. Where the PCR data is available, the cycle rate was often as high as 37 (which according to Trusted Sources(cm)) makes for a very high possibility of a false positive, even Dr. Fauci admitted that.

    But in many cases, there is NO PCR value attributed to the test, just a checkbox that says “positive case, trust us, we’re the experts”.

    His summary is that the data is “garbage” and there is literally no way any honest organization could regression test how we’ve come to the conclusions we’ve come to regarding COVID cases.

    Will continue to dig more, but this lines right up with a whole bunch of suspicions I’ve had- as I myself have done some digging into my state’s DOH data and have found it… wanting.

    1. They also, at least as of a few weeks ago, determine “cases” in vaccinated vs unvaccinated according to different standards, running fewer cycles when testing vaccinated.
      For example: A has been vaccinated, B hasn’t. Both go to get a PCR test. B tests positive after running 35 cycles, but A doesn’t test positive after 25 cycles. They count B as a case, but not A – even though it’s entirely possible A would’ve come up positive if they’d run those 10 extra cycles.

  14. I see science still prevails in California.

  15. Has the news reached California this is a weak-ass variant from a bioengineered virus that is AEROSOLIZED?

    California, New York, Ontario and Quebec.

    The top four winners of idiocy and pseudoscience during the Covid moral panic and hysteria. You decide who shares the bronze.

    1. Wouldn’t it’s being aerosolized be an argument for masks?

      1. It’s complicated. The weave of a cotton mask is so wide they it really can’t stop aerosols from getting through. By bad luck, it might run into a fiber, but most of the virus is going to sneak through. Let’s not forget that much of one’s breath also just goes around the mask, and then an aerosol will just hang out for a while.

        Back when they thought it was droplet based, masks made more sense in lieu of social distancing as the larger droplets are much more likely to get caught by the weave, and the breath that goes around the mask is getting directed away from the person in front of you. Of course, if this was droplet based, you could just stand 6 feet that would also work. Mask OR social distancing, not AND.

        Earlier in the pandemic, the fact that it is aerosolized might push toward masking, because at that point, you really don’t have any great NPI options. So, the 10% or whatever of virus that happen to run into the cotton fibers are the best that you can do. It won’t be all that protective to the individual, but over a population, knocking down the replication factor just a small amount can have a big impact on hospital surge, given how exponential numbers work. However, given that hospital surge isn’t in play anymore, masks are largely irrelevant. Even if you get lucky and it protects you from exposure, you are unlikely to get lucky at your second exposure. Get the vaccine or the virus. Your choice (unless you are under 12).

  16. > Between December 7 and June 7, the Times notes, “the unvaccinated accounted for 99.6% of L.A. County’s coronavirus cases, 98.7% of COVID-19 hospitalizations and 99.8% of deaths.”

    This seems like a very impressive statistic, until you realize that until April or later most people were unvaccinated.

    Consider that last July virtually 100% of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths involved the unvaccinated. There were virtually no cases among vaccinated people. Have things backslid for the vaccinated?

    1. I believe the argument is that if you’re unvaccinated, you’re potentially killing other unvaccinated people, and that makes you a bad person.

      I have been told both expressly and by implication that if you’re unvaccinated, you’re a bad person.

      So I’m forced to conclude that only bad people are getting sick and dying from COVID.

      1. And, I am told, they don’t deserve treatment if they are sick.

        1. Exactly. I’d call this whole situation win-win-win.

      2. >you’re potentially killing other unvaccinated people, and that makes you a bad person.

        Or that they’re trying to kill you!

        Gotta be ashamed AND afraid.

        Whatevs. Immunity works, I’m statistically so unlikely to die from an enounter with the unvaccinated evil people that it amounts to a rounding error. I’m more worried about looking both ways before I cross a street. My sister had the ‘rona, not the vaccine, and you know what? Same for her. No skin off my back if someone gets sick.

        World would be a better place if people weren’t such busybodies.

        1. “No skin off my back if someone gets sick.”

          To be clear, you are saying, “Screw other people.”

          1. To be clear, I’m saying:
            “Fuck off slaver and die”

          2. To be clear, you’re saying “screw other people”

    2. No, there was a story this week that 100% of the current hospitalizations in LA County are unvaccinated.

    3. That is a good argument pertaining to stats from December – March. But the numbers have remained low for vaccinated people for April and May.

      1. I havent worn a mask and havent got an influenza or kungflu vaccine and have been sick 0 times in two years.

      2. Numbers are going to be low overall until the weather turns. There’s a reason cold and flu season isn’t summer.

    4. Don’t forget that by the end of January, most nursing home and assisted living residents were vaccinated. They are only 1% of the population, but a third of the deaths. So, fair enough point on the case percentage, but the folks susceptible to hospitalization and death have had access for most of that time period.

      1. Nursing home residents have loads of comorbidities, which is the key factor to kungflu killing people.

        1. And the main reason that Cuomo should be tried for mass homicide.

  17. Commies all upset over a virus with a death rate under 1% for everyone in the world under 65 years old. Even over 65 have death rates lower than other causes like heart disease (650,000 in USA each year) and war (100million+ in 20th century).


    Five times more children and young people committed suicide than died of COVID-19 during the first year of the pandemic in the United Kingdom, according to a study, which also concluded that lockdowns are more detrimental to children’s health than the virus itself.

  19. Why get the vaccine if you still have to wear a mask? What if they threw a quarantine and nobody came? What would they do if the freedom loving people of LA decided to simply ignore these tyrannical new directions.

  20. Thank you Florida governor DeSantis for not locking Florida down.
    Only Georgia opened up ahead of us.
    The economy here is booming, theme parks are open, and almost no one is wearing masks.
    Even our large population of elderly, vulnerable people was not decimated by coronavirus unlike in New York.
    Di Santis for president in 2024!

    1. Yes just got back from there a few weeks ago. It is the same here.

  21. The LA ‘solution’ is so damn useless. Because they don’t have the balls to hold people accountable for their own inactions.

    My solution above is much better. Esp re what is likely to happen from this point forward. Anecdotal stuff happening now in Greene County MO.

    The hospital is now busier than at any previous point during the pandemic. In just five weeks, it took in as many COVID-19 patients as it did over five months last year. Ten minutes away, another big hospital, Cox Medical Center South, has been inundated just as quickly. “We only get beds available when someone dies, which happens several times a day,” Terrence Coulter, the critical-care medical director at CoxHealth, told me.

    This dramatic surge is the work of the super-contagious Delta variant, which now accounts for 95 percent of Greene County’s new cases

    Just 40 percent of people in Greene County are fully vaccinated. In some nearby counties, less than 20 percent of people are.

    Those ICUs are also filling with younger patients, in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, including many with no underlying health problems…While experts are still uncertain if Delta is deadlier than the original coronavirus, every physician and nurse in Missouri whom I spoke with told me that the 30- and 40-something COVID-19 patients they’re now seeing are much sicker than those they saw last year.

    Almost every COVID-19 patient in Springfield’s hospitals is unvaccinated, and the dozen or so exceptions are all either elderly or immunocompromised people.

    Springfield’s health-care workers shared a common purpose of serving their community, Steve Edwards, the president and CEO of CoxHealth, told me. But now they’re “putting themselves in harm’s way for people who’ve chosen not to protect themselves,” he said.

    In previous phases of the pandemic, both hospitals took in patients from other counties and states. “Now we’re blasting outward,” Coulter said. “We’re already saturating the surrounding hospitals.”

    The vaccinated should not be the ones burdened by NPI’s because the unvax are freeloaders. Enough! This entire problem disappears with my solution.

    1. Covid really sucks as a disease. Even with a mild to moderate case it really is bad. It is no fun. I had one day of fatigue and general crappy feeling after my second dose. Nowhere near what an actual infection feels like. Missed one day of work.

      A severe case can have permanent lung damage and long term neurological consequences. One third of severe cases suffer from pulmonary fibrosis. They will never be the same again.

      Death is not the only thing to look at. Spending a week or two in the hospital and then several more recovering is not what anyone wants to happen.

      So if people want to take that chance there is nothing I can do about it. People have autonomy. That is a core principle.

      So what will happen is the unvaxxed will take a bigger risk. I do not understand it but that is reality.

  22. LA County does not have the legal authority to impose any conduct mandates upon its citizens without due process for each and every one of them. Or so says a federal court whose ruling has been upheld on appeal. It means that if you are arrested for disobeying one of these mandates imposed without due process specifically for your case, it is an illegal arrest. You probably are going to have to spend several million dollars and years appealing that arrest in the courts all the way to SCOTUS, that is if they will take the case. Masks do not protect healthy people. Masks only help protect uninfected from sick people if they are worn by the sick person.

  23. I live in LA County. The word on the streets: this stupid crap is not going over well. Yes, this former left leaning libertarian wants nothing to do with anything left. And yes, this is not about health it is all about left and social control. These nuts should a learned from the pig Napoleon but they are following the same pattern.

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