Jo Jorgensen

Jo Jorgensen Beating the Polling Spread in 4 States; Each Voted for Trump in 2016

Libertarian faces potential "spoiler" charge in Ohio, North Carolina, Iowa, and Georgia.

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Four weeks before Election Day, third-party presidential candidates continue to lag in the polls compared to the spike year of 2016, when 5.7 percent of the electorate went nontraditional for POTUS. In the RealClearPolitics average of the last five national polls, Libertarian Jo Jorgensen sits at just 2 percent, while the Green Party's Howie Hawkins is at a temporarily high 1.4 percent that will revert closer to 1 once the next poll rolls over. (Also, if Hawkins, in the face of near-fanatical Democratic voter motivation this year, tops 2016 nominee Jill Stein's 1.1 percent, I will eat a Dodgers hat on live television.)

Still, there remains potential yet for Libertarians and even Greens to be labeled "spoilers" depending on how this high-intensity election plays out. Jorgensen is polling higher than the gap between President Donald Trump and Democratic nominee Joe Biden in four key states, each of which Trump won in 2016: Ohio and North Carolina, where Biden currently leads, and Iowa and Georgia, where the incumbent retains a tiny advantage.

Here are those state races, ranked by the percentage-point distance between the third-party candidate and the margin between the top two.

1) Ohio, +2.3

Polling percentages: Biden 45.5, Trump 44.5, Jorgensen 3.3, Hawkins 0.8, other/not voting/undecided 6.5 (four polls)

Forecast: Rated a toss-up by 12 out of 14 prognosticators, with the other two leaning Trump. "Ohio looked like a red state a year ago," noted Cleveland.com last week. "Heading into the presidential debate, it's clearly a toss-up."

2016 results: Trump 51.7, Hillary Clinton 43.6, Gary Johnson 3.2, Jill Stein 0.8, Richard Duncan 0.4

2) North Carolina, +1.0 

Polling percentages: Biden 45.8, Trump 44.6, Jorgensen 2.0, Hawkins 0.6, Constitution Party nominee Don Blankenship 0.4 (in eight polls), other/not voting/undecided 6.2 (17 polls)

Forecast: 13/14 toss-up, with one leaning Biden. "Most every political veteran in North Carolina, Democrat or Republican, is expecting a close race," reported The New York Times on September 26. "Each of the last three presidential races in the state has been decided by less than four percentage points….[And] a number of people in the state have already voted: Absentee ballots began going out to the state's voters three weeks ago."

2016 results: Trump 49.8, Clinton 46.2, Johnson 2.7, Stein 0.3

3) Iowa, +1.0

Polling percentages: Trump 45.8, Biden 44.8, Jorgensen 2.0, Hawkins 0.7 (in 3 polls), other/not voting/undecided 6.8 (five polls)

Forecast: 9/14 rate it a toss-up, with five leaning Trump. Reports CNN this week: "Trump's campaign canceled its planned television advertising in Iowa and Ohio this week, focusing its spending on states where Trump is behind even as polls show he is neck-and-neck with Democratic challenger Joe Biden in the two Midwestern states."

2016 results: Trump 51.2, Clinton 41.7, Johnson 3.8, Evan McMullin 0.8, Stein 0.7, Darrell Castle (Constitution Party) 0.3, Lynn Kahn (New Independent) 0.1, Dan Vacek (Legal Marijuana Now) 0.1

4) Georgia, +0.6

Polling percentages: Trump 46.6, Biden 45.1, Jorgensen 2.1, Hawkins 1.0, other/not voting/undecided 5.6 (11 polls, four with Hawkins)

Forecast: 12/14 toss-up, with two leaning Trump. "In a wild 2020 election shaped by pandemic, protests and polarizing politics," the Atlanta Journal-Constitution wrote last week, "suburban women could well determine the fate of Georgia's presidential race, two U.S. Senate elections and down-ballot contests. And both parties have sharpened their pitches to win over the once-reliably Republican bloc."

2016 results: Trump 50.4, Clinton 45.4, Johnson 3.0, Evan McMullin 0.3

Bonus state: Alaska, +/- ?

That's a question mark because for some foolish reason POLLSTERS AREN'T INCLUDING THIRD-PARTY CANDIDATES IN ALASKA, NOT EVEN ONCE. This is a particularly unwise tactic in the Last Frontier since voters there are as likely as any in the union to vote against the grain—a combined 12.2 percent for non-Dems/Repubs in 2016. Ralph Nader got 10.1 percent of the vote there in 2000; Ross Perot got 28.4 percent of the vote in 1992.

Forecast: 13/14 prognosticators peg this race as likely or leaning Republican, and fair enough—Alaska has voted for the last 13 consecutive GOP presidential nominees, and by at least 14 percentage points for the past six. "Alaska's values are the values of the Libertarian Party," Jorgensen told the Juneau Empire last month. "We believe in the individual, we believe that people have the right to make their own decisions and we shouldn't be bossed around by the people in Washington. The federal government is too big, too nosy, too, bossy and the worst part is, they usually end up hurting the very people they're trying to help."

2016 results: Trump 51.3, Clinton 36.6, Johnson 5.9, Stein 1.8, Castle 1.2, Reform Party nominee Rocky De La Fuente 0.4

NEXT: Democrats and the White House Were Nearing an Agreement on Renter, Homeowner Assistance. Then Trump Tweeted.

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  1. “I will eat a Dodgers hat on live television.)”

    Make that a scat sandwich and I’ll watch.

    1. Dodgers, scat, what;s the difference?

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      2. Don’t choke on the embroidered “B.”

        It would probably be easier to find a Los Angeles National League hat, but that’s two letters one might gag on. 🙂

        1. They moved. Over 60 years ago. GET OVER IT.

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    2. Not unless he washes it down with a giant douche.

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    3. It’s the best reason I’ve heard to vote for Hawkins. I mean, we are gonna get a moron as president anyways, might as well force Matt to eat a hat.

    4. Poor Matt Welch and his Beto boner again.

      Trump is going to win reelection.

      The LP will get less votes in most races than in 2016.

      The reason….Democrats are fucking horrible and the LP wont stand up to the Socialists like Trump has.

      1. This is becoming more and more apparent to me. For the first time in over 20 years, I’ll be voting Republican down the line because the LP has really grown “soft” on fighting socialism while the R’s are getting tougher. We can’t let Biden/Harris win.

        1. I’m probably going to be voting Republican for President once Trump is gone which I hope happens come January. I’d be fine voting against Biden/Harris but Trump is too mentally deranged to be effective at fighting anything, much less a foe as sinister and pervasive as the socialist Trojan Horses in the Democratic party today. Voting Republican for everything else and I predict once midterms 2022 roll around the Republicans, if they do lose Congress in this election, will win in a landslide.

      2. The LP used to stand up to National Socialists, like with the 1972 Roe v Wade plank instead of the good-faith-based bootlicking plank.

      3. No, LC.

        The LP ticket won’t get less votes for that reason.

        The LP ticket will get less votes because they’re headed by Jo and Spike, who think being woke is more admirable than being lowercase) libertarian.

        1. Becoming the LP nominee for president is the pratfall capstone to end a political career, whether real… or in the case of Jo Jorgensen, imagined. Gary Johnson will never be able to run for anything ever again and Amash ran from it because he might want a career some time again in the future. Nobody wants the “once ran for President under the Libertarian Party” tagline on their life. It runs only second as a statement of deficiency to being the 3rd string quarterback on the AAF Arizona Hotshots.

          Of course to double down on the only one seemingly to want the LP nomination, Jorgansen, they pick a guy named Spike whose first intentions was to run second on a ticket headed by “Vermin Love Supreme”, a stage name that was even too tacky for professional wrestling. This is tantamount to running backwards when you’re in last place in a marathon, just so the cameras give you 4 seconds of fame. This apparent proof that LP officials [if they can be called that] don’t even bother trying.

          Now, I love libertarianism, but it’s way past time to bury this bone that anyone jokingly still refers to as a political party. Apparently their only reason for existence anymore is the slim chance they could fuck things up for someone else. Not much of a strategy.

          1. The LP is a bad joke anymore.

    5. https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1313923071007318016

      And dopehat is shaming a regular guy on twitter for voting for her.

      Come get your boy Reason, he caught TDS and lost his mind, much like most of you clowns.

      God damn you people are pathetic. I hope Cato pays well but it cant possibly be enough for your souls

      1. Ha! The prick has me blocked.
        #MAGA

    6. “Libertarian Jo Jorgensen sits at just 2 percent, while the Green Party’s Howie Hawkins is at a temporarily high 1.4 percent that will revert closer to 1 once the next poll rolls over.”

      Two fans of racist Marxist BLM are supposed to be taking votes from Trump?

      1. Jo Jorgensen @Jorgensen4POTUS
        It is not enough to be passively not racist, we must be actively anti-racist.
        #BlackLivesMatter #VoteGold

        https://twitter.com/Jorgensen4POTUS/status/1281638042315489284

        It’s fun watching libertarians in her feed tear her a new one for supporting BLM.

        1. Not to mention the word “must”. This is what you get when you pick a ‘never-was’ hailing from a time long ago as your standard-bearer.

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  2. 2) North Carolina, +1.0
    Polling percentages: Biden 45.8, Trump 44.6, Jorgensen 2.0

    Using a Pentium? 2.0 – (45.8 – 44.6 —> 1.2) —> 0.8 not 1.0. The other three are ok.

  3. Libertarian faces potential “spoiler” charge in Ohio, North Carolina, Iowa, and Georgia.

    Well, that’s something to be really proud of when Harris and the Democrats finally turn the US into a socialist shithole!

    But, hey, leave it to a big-L Libertarian to ignore Duverger’s law and pretend like we live in a multi-party system. It’s not like Jo cares about achieving libertarian outcomes anyway, all she cares about is good libertarian talking points.

    1. Libertarians are NOT Republicans. Your assumption that they will be sad when the Republicans lose is unwarranted. They don’t want EITHER side to win. We’re either going to get a socialist shithole or a fascist shithole. Libertarians are opposed to shitholes regardless of flavor.

      1. THIS

        Very well said.

        1. No, not well said. Just wrong.

          The fascism and the socialism are on the same side, and it’s important to defeat it.

          1. Exactly. Biden and the Democrats will continue with their orgy of censorship but they’ll start making incorrect opinions illegal rather than merely censoring them on social media. Of course Brandybuck supports censorship because they’re only censoring “fascists”.

            1. Dum dum dum dum dum dummmmmm

              1. I quit working at shoprite and now I make $65-85 per/h. How? I’m working online! My work didn’t exactly make me happy so I decided to take a chance on something new…RDf after 4 years it was so hard to quit my day job but now I couldn’t be happier.

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          2. We defeat it by using spoiler vote clout to defeat their worst candidates and make them repeal bad laws. Only the LP ovvers voters this kind of law-changing clout and the opportunity for independent thinkers to vote for and increase freedom. That’s winning.

      2. What is fascist, anyway?

        1. A fascist is anyone socialists don’t like. Usually, it’s other socialists.

            1. It’s also true to a T. Voting Dem is voting to coerce, attack and kill the other looters. Voting God’s Own Prohibitionists is voting to force women into involuntary labor, and attack and invade a nuclear-armed Canada for having dared–like England and Ireland–to repeal Comstockist girl-bullying laws. Wars and economic Crashes and recessions are what the Gee-Oh-Pee are groping into our clothes to grab at.

          1. Using your logic means Trump is a socialist.

        2. Private ownership but public (ei government) control of the means of production. Mussolini explained it well, as he was one. The government harnesses private production to achieve public goals. Plus the fancy military parades and blustering and all that. But mostly it’s the corporatism.

          Yes, the Democrats are more Fascist than they are actually Socialist. But the Republicans are giving them a run for their money. Fascism is a kind of socialism. The only reason the socialist view fascists as the enemy, is because the fascists turned on their beloved Stalin.

          1. “But the Republicans are giving them a run for their money…”

            Are you actually high right now, Brandy? Have you read the specifics in The Green New Deal—excuse me—the Biden Plan? What of anything Trump/the Republicans in Congress have proposed or enacted, that comes within 1/10th of being as Fascistic as that?

            No, the more likely answer is that the Libertarian Party and its supporters—when they can bother to show up to vote at all—are used to lazily proclaiming, “Both Sides Are Evil!” Without ever having to state how they would accomplish a different set of goals, or bother to distinguish between two fairly opposed party platforms this time around.

            You lot will make fine spoilers in a Harris victory. Just like Stein and the Greens did in screwing Hillary over. Pity we’ll then have to find a way to pull through in the face of a governing coalition that will have been rewarded for shutting most of the country down.

            Finally, the point of a spoiler in a two party system is to get leverage from one or both sides, so that those two parties adopt more of the spoiler’s views. What then, could Trump do to adopt Libertarian Party views such that LP supporters would switch their votes? (Again, assuming Libertarians actually went to the polls and voted.) He stated earlier that he wasn’t interested in continuing stimulus payments until after the election—something I would think Libertarians would back—and Bretschgi wrote an article filled with butthurt about it. (Yeah, Trump changed his public stance later today. The article was still published before then.)

            If you can’t be pleased by anything, don’t be surprised when either party stops trying to cater to you. And don’t be surprised when proponents for either party in a close race, stop looking at you as having a point, and start thinking of you as bugs to be squashed. Like the Dems have done this election with Green Party access in a bunch of states.

            1. You lot will make fine spoilers in a Harris victory.

              Fake news. I will vote for Jo and will not spoil anyone’s chance namely since I live in Maryland and Biden will get all the electoral votes. But secondly the candidates spoiled their chance to earn my vote; that’s maybe because 1 of me is not better 100 of you; but that wasn’t my decision to run the campaign targeting those voters.

              What then, could Trump do to adopt Libertarian Party views such that LP supporters would switch their votes?

              Nothing Trump can do now; unless he returns my money. He taxed me by executive order; violating the constitution and one of our glorious revolutions central tenants, “NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION”. That something I won’t and can’t excuse.

              1. Trumps current plan reduces taxes over the next 10 years by 1.2 trillion. Bidens plan currently increases taxes by 4 trillion.

                Keep pretending the sides are equal.

            2. Bullshit. Both parties are total, abject failures. The Dems are beholden to the BLM leftist woke crowd, and the GOP has sold their souls to an incompetent, deranged, egomaniac.

              That said, Jorgensen lost my vote the day she bended knee at the feet of BLM. I wrote in who I believe would have been a good candidate, and I’m not fucking responsible for the two main parties’ shitty decisions.

          2. Obamacare is the essence of fascism. Government dictates products and prices to industry.

            All the military clownishness is simply window dressing, except when they need to FORCE the government’s will on the unwilling. Which, of course, they inevitably must do to keep the system going.

          3. Sub in “race” for “class” and the two ideologies are so similar as to make no difference. Il Duce was an “international socialist” before he became a “national” one.

        3. If you don’t utterly despise the United States of America, the founding fathers, the Constitution, and heterosexual white men in general, you’re a fascist according to these assholes.

        4. Religious socialism. They like to think of it as a religious heavily-mixed economy.

      3. I used to vote Libertarian, and if there was no libertarian in a local race, I voted Republican. Not anymore. I cannot bring myself to vote for a Republican ever again. Now I now have nothing in common with the GOP, except for the 2nd Amendment. Of course, I can’t bring myself to vote for a Democrat, so I am going to be leaving some blank spaces on the ballot.

        1. You’d do better to leave a blank space in the world. You’d be much better off.

          But, regardless of eunuch, the libertarian position has become utterly irrational. Rs are also bad, and Trump isn’t “presidential”, so who cares if we get full on totalitarianism like Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany?
          Apparently tariffs and any level of immigration restrictions or requirements = Green New Deal, critical race theory based social credit score enforced by Big Business and government, nationalization of healthcare, Supreme Court packing and legislation via judicial fiat, multitudes of new taxes, and gun confiscation.
          You may deserve the totalitarianism you effectively shill for, but I and others don’t.

          1. ^^^ This is what happens when you spend all day on right-wing Twitter. You become utterly convinced that moderate neoliberalism = “Soviet Russia”

            1. moderate neoliberalism = Green New Deal, critical race theory based social credit score enforced by Big Business and government, nationalization of healthcare, Supreme Court packing and legislation via judicial fiat, multitudes of new taxes, and gun confiscation?

              And that’s just what they’ve openly told us they intend to do.
              Even left out the “burn it all down if we don’t get our way” terrorism part.

              1. If you are half the man you claim to be, you’d do something about it other than cry here every. fucking. day.

                1. We shall see.
                  Hopefully our paths will cross.

                  1. I quit working at shoprite and now I make $65-85 per/h. How? I’m working online! My work didn’t exactly make me happy so I decided to take a chance on something new…CMs after 4 years it was so hard to quit my day job but now I couldn’t be happier.

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            2. chem….If you are truly interested in implementing anything remotely resembling Libertarian policy in 2020, there are only two choices. Team D is out of the picture.

              Now you are down to POTUS Trump or Jo Jorgensen. I’ll be honest, from a purely ideological libertarian standpoint, I’m with her. The reality is, however, Jo won’t win but would siphon off enough votes to put Team D into office. Since that is clearly unacceptable in every instance, you’re caught in between a rock and a hard place.

              Since I live in the People’s Republic of NJ, I will cast my ballot for Jo, only because The Donald has no chance to win NJ.

              1. He might have a chance if you, and others who plan to give up without trying, vote for him.
                Instead, you’ll make the totalitarians’ job easier.

                1. I’m also stuck in the People’s Republic of NJ, and the Ds could nominate a head of lettuce and still defeat Trump. NJ is being controlled/ruined by an incompetent tyrant, yet he has a good chance of being re-elected in 2021 just because he will have a D next to his name on the ballot.

                2. Nardz….listen, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, The Donald would get my vote. He runs very strong in South Jersey, heading toward the shore area. I see Trump flags all over the place.

                  The problem is Phucking Phailing Phil Murphy, the goldman-sachs dickhead, has mailed out ballots to any NJ registered voter. I myself received one for my dead MIL, and my child who moved away 4 years ago. Multiply this by 2 million, and you see the issue. No in-person voting…anyone showing up will be forced to cast provisional ballots, which will not be counted.

                  The People’s Republic of NJ is lost to Team R. That is the truth.

                  1. I get where you’re coming from.
                    But you have a choice: make Murphy’s life harder, or easier.
                    Voting Trump accomplishes the former, going JoJo the latter.

                3. Through a Glass, Rodily, by George Orwell, dispels this lesser of two totalitarians defeatism. And Orwell didn’t even know about spoiler vote clout.

              2. I’m in the same position as you, XY. Will probably do the same.

            3. Hey Lying Jeffy, he literally listed policies that are being pushed by Democrats (except when they’re in front of the wrong audience and pretend they’re not). He didn’t get them from right wing Twitter.

            4. It doesn’t matter what you call it, the Democrat party platform is radical left wing, racist, and destructive.

                1. In its nearly 100 pages all mention of the death sentence for plant leaves and other prohibitionist cruelty has been omitted. The Dems learned from being beaten to a pulp by 4.5 million Libertarian spoiler votes. God’s Own Prohibitionists chose to stand pat and put a Wizened Christian Comstockist on the Supreme Court instead of drawing a plank from the libertarian party’s terse platform. Their loss…

          2. Hey, if Joe Biden wins, which looks increasingly likely, please don’t go full McVeigh. It’s just not worth it.

            More seriously, if you think casting an inconsequential vote for the LP candidate is shilling for “totalitarianism”, you may want to review your understanding of the word.

              1. A stunning rebuttal as always. Seriously though, please don’t kill anybody.

                1. Seriously, bignose, end your life soon.

            1. More seriously, if you think casting an inconsequential vote for the LP candidate is shilling for “totalitarianism”

              No, it’s not “shilling for totalitarianism”, it’s just dumb.

              1. Dumb compared to voting for Trump in Texas? Voting for Biden in California?

                1. In this election, you can’t predict how any state goes with certainty when it comes to Trump vs Biden. California is unlikely to flip, but it’s not inconceivable. It is inconceivable that Jorgensen wins.

                  Your reading of the situation may differ, of course.

                  1. There are several states that we can declare with near certainty. California will not vote for Trump. Texas may vote for Biden, though I still think it’s fairly unlikely.

                    And you’re correct, Jorgenson will never win. But if I live in a state that is all but assured to vote for Biden/Trump, I lose nothing by standing for the party that best aligns with my beliefs.

                  2. In this election, you can’t predict how any state goes with certainty when it comes to Trump vs Biden. California is unlikely to flip, but it’s not inconceivable.

                    True, and I can attest that there is significant ‘secret’ support for Trump in CA, probably more than polls are showing.

                    But if CA goes for Trump, it will be because every other state did, too. It’s not going to be the case that CA goes for Trump while TX goes for Biden.

                    1. The left is reliant on massive fraud.
                      They’ve all but admitted as much.
                      Every vote for Trump makes pulling off that fraud more difficult and more obvious.
                      A vote for Jo makes it easier, and accomplishes what else?

                    2. Replying to Nardz: accomplishes what else?

                      Ballot Access. Don’t blame the LP for the rules set by the Repubs and Dems.

                    3. A vote for Jo makes it easier, and accomplishes what else?

                      What SaGN said. I don’t see how one “not-Biden” vote is different from another, fraud-wise. If my vote gets “lost,” it doesn’t register one way or the other.

                    4. Ballot access is a legitimate response.

                    5. “I don’t see how one “not-Biden” vote is different from another, fraud-wise.”

                      Because Trump is the only competition the left faces. A vote for Jo is just one vote that Biden doesn’t get. A vote for Trump is not only a vote Biden doesn’t get, but a vote for his competition and must be overcome.

                    6. Because Trump is the only competition the left faces.

                      Not in California. The left doesn’t face any competition in California. So a vote for Jo is a vote taken from someone who could’ve had my vote if they were more like Jo.

                      Biden will need to be defeated elsewhere – California is not the front in this fight.

                    7. “Biden will need to be defeated elsewhere – California is not the front in this fight.”

                      That’s certain, though a significant vote for Trump there would be interesting.
                      But other hopeless states, like New Jersey, New York, Virginia, Oregon, Washington should absolutely try to make Trump competitive. A couple I could see him winning in a legitimate election.

                  3. These one-dementional idiots do NOT understand change, but that’s their problem. Positive Christian Mixed-Economy Statists in Germany were just as certain Gott was Mitt Romney. Imagine their surprise when defense lawyers whined they were “just following orders” and nooses tightened under their jowls. Democratic looters are suddenly–since 2000–wide awake to the fact that voters can choose different verdicts. This same ossified mentality keeps Republican looters from understanding how confiscating homes and bank accounts causes economic collapse, time after time… Better for us that they have plenty of rope.

                    1. Dude, where’d you score the Owsley?

                    2. This same ossified mentality keeps Republican looters from understanding how confiscating homes and bank accounts causes economic collapse, time after time…

                      Attributing the US business cycle to “Republican looters confiscating homes and bank accounts” is utterly bizarre and divorced from reality.

                2. “Dumb compared to voting for Trump in Texas?”

                  Hey now, I’ve been told here recently that Biden winning in Texas, given recent polling, is something that could very well happen, and I would be overreacting for thinking such a win was due to fraud on its face.

                  1. “something that could very well happen”

                    You’re right, Biden winning Texas is more likely than Trump winning California. I shouldn’t have implied that the two were equivalent.

                    “and I would be overreacting for thinking such a win was due to fraud on its face.”

                    Without any evidence of such fraud? Yes, you would. Let’s wait until the actual election to declare that improbable results are fraudulent results.

                    1. You’re really invested in the leftist perspective being accepted at face value, and in trying to downplay the threat they pose

                  2. No real Texan could vote for a pussy like Biden.

          3. Your posts here are more full of shit than a Christmas goose. I’m not responsible for the shitty choices of both parties, and voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. At least I have the guts to stand up and vote for real change.

        2. I used to fill in with Republicans in races where there were no LP candidates. Then the Nuclear-Tipped Soviet Communist dictatorship became beached-whale gull-bait. Now I vote straight-ticket yellow-dawg libertarian.

          1. High as fuck again I see Hank.

            1. Looke there, Ed Hominem panhandled enuf to renew.

        3. Why does every never Trumper tell this same fucking lie? Just like all of the biden town hall ex Republicans who were already exposed as pro biden in earlier news interviews.

          All you fucking do is lie.

          1. Like Trump lies about virtually every fucking thing? Give us a break. Trump couldn’t hold Reagan’s jock. The GOP is dead.

        4. I write in “None of the above” where no Libertarian has qualified for the ballot.

      4. Trump isn’t exactly a Republican and a substantial portion of his base doesn’t identify that way either.

        1. Agreed. He is a self serving narcissist and many (not all) of his follower cultist.

          1. He is a self serving narcissist

            Apparently, he is the at least somewhat qualified for running for political office. Though he still can’t hold a candle to the Clintons, Biden, and Obama: those people have self-serving narcissism down to a finely honed art, together with the ability to conceal it.

            1. They don’t conceal, they just have massive propaganda working for them.

          2. Dude, we’re not talking Obama. Try to keep up.

        2. That’s the reason he got elected.

      5. Libertarians are NOT Republicans. Your assumption that they will be sad when the Republicans lose is unwarranted.

        I didn’t make any such assumptions. I was pointing out the ignorance of those people.

        They don’t want EITHER side to win.

        The way our political system works is that we have a whole bunch of political processes that lead up to one, final, binary decision. If you want libertarian outcomes, you have to do so by influencing one or the other parties in that final decision.

        Anybody who thinks that the way to accomplish political goals is by founding a party and growing it to be competitive at the national level is simply ignorant.

        We’re either going to get a socialist shithole or a fascist shithole.

        True, in the sense that Harris/Biden’s policies are both socialist and fascist.

        Libertarians are opposed to shitholes regardless of flavor.

        Yes, socialists and fascists are opposed to shitholes, just like big-L Libertarians. You should get a room.

        1. We have seen what happens when libertarians try to influence Team Red. Republicans didn’t become more libertarian. Instead, libertarians became more nationalist as they went with the flow and worshipped Dear Leader Orange Clown along with everyone else on Team Red, and abandoned the few libertarian positions that could have had a chance at success with fusion with Republicanism, such as actually reining in spending just a wee little bit.

          Team Red is not interested in liberty for its own sake. Team Red is only interested in liberty *for themselves*, they are far too willing to deny liberty to people they don’t like (immigrants, Democrats, foreigners), and have hopelessly conflated liberty with nationalism – as if promoting Team USA is equivalent to promoting liberty itself. It is not.

          If you *actually want liberty*, and not just flag-waving chest-thumping jingoism coupled with hysteria and demagoguery against foreigners, then how can you support Team Red at all?

          1. Team Red is not interested in liberty for its own sake. Team Red is only interested in liberty *for themselves*, they are far too willing to deny liberty to people they don’t like (immigrants, Democrats, foreigners)

            You’re right that Trump-style Republicans believe that it is not the job of American politicians or American taxpayers to concern themselves with the liberty of non-citizens. That also happens to be a widespread libertarian position.

            If you *actually want liberty*, and not just flag-waving chest-thumping jingoism coupled with hysteria and demagoguery against foreigners, then how can you support Team Red at all?

            It’s because I am (originally) a foreigner and a libertarian that I am a flag waving, chest thumping jingoist who loudly opposes large scale immigration. Unlike you, I really know first hand what the world and the people outside the US are actually like.

          2. You have no concept of what ‘nationalism’ is, like most leftists. Trump isn’t a nationalist to any great degree. He uses the props of patriotism, but the policies have largely be non-nationalistic and far more Libertarian then any prior R or D administration.
            The tariffs are an open issue, but unfortunately most Reason writers are so economically illiterate that we’ve yet to see a good discussion here about viable alternatives….and no, “free trade” is little more then a cultish slogan in a world of fiat currencies.

            If you want nationalists, go to almost any other country in the world.

            Trump’s policies (not the tweets, not the loud statements, not the bombast, not the bargaining ploys), but the actual hard policies that have been followed the last 3.5 years are more libertarian then any prior administration in the last 50 years.

          3. So chem, can you name any Team Red POTUS since 1928 that has been as libertarian in policy than POTUS Trump? Name one.

            You’ll want to say Eisenhower, but you’d be wrong.

            1. Are we defining libertarian as totally negligent of all of the country’s needs? A+ for Trump.

              1. Figuring out what the country needs is what elections are all about.

                You obviously think that the country needs the NSDAP political program, complete with its racial justice agenda.

                Many others (fortunately) disagree.

                1. Injecting white racial grievance into everything kind of gives the game away.

                  1. Injecting white racial grievance into everything kind of gives the game away.

                    Something here about logs and eyes.

                    1. Everything in American politics is and always has been about race. But that’s neither here nor there.

                    2. Everything in American politics is and always has been about race.

                      For some.

                    3. For democrats this is true. All the way back to slavery and the KKK. Thanks for admitting it tony.

                  2. What makes you think I have grievances, racial or otherwise?

                    I just observed that your belief in economic and racial justice is literally what the NSDAP ran on.

                    Go check for yourself.

                    1. I was talking about the nature of libertarian politics. Is it “let the world go to shit as long as nobody’s taxes go up”?

                    2. I remember when Tony said it was unfair he had to work. What a worthless breath of oxygen.

                    3. Tony, the nature of libertarianism is the belief that “raising people’s taxes” (i.e., increasing the size of government) causes countries to go to shit.

                      Libertarians don’t want our country to go to shit, which is exactly why we oppose increasing the size of government.

                      Conservatives, libertarians, progressives, and socialists all want to have a healthy, wealthy, prosperous country; we are disagreeing over how to get there.

                  3. Is it “let the world go to shit as long as nobody’s taxes go up”?

                    Nope.

                2. I wrote and posted “Republican National Socialism” to show just how tiny is the gap between “our” heavily-mixed economy and centrally-planned socialism. The only difference that matters to the loudest mouths is that National Socialism loves Jesus and godless communism is less into relying on men with guns to bully women. Libertarian platforms reject rather than revere both brands of coercion.

                  1. I wrote and posted “Republican National Socialism” to show just how tiny is the gap between “our” heavily-mixed economy and centrally-planned socialism.

                    Oh, really? Republicans advocate nationalizing big companies, confiscating the wealth of “the 1%”, and sending billionaires of the wrong race to concentration camps? I don’t think so. The only party that advocates that in the US is the Democrats. Republicans clearly and strongly oppose it.

                    The only difference that matters to the loudest mouths is that National Socialism loves Jesus and godless communism is less into relying on men with guns to bully women

                    National Socialists didn’t “love Jesus”. They destroyed the Lutheran church and forced the Catholic church to swear allegiance to the state and conform to state demands; anybody who disagreed was thrown into a concentration camp.

                    Libertarian platforms reject rather than revere both brands of coercion.

                    The Libertarian Party platform has nothing to say about religious coercion; that’s because religious coercion hasn’t been a thing in the US for a long time.

                    Of course, the LP is rather selective in its platform, and rather vague on details.

              2. I’m sorry, do you have anything meaningful to contribute? Nah, didn’t think so. Begone!

        2. Lightning could strike the Giant Douche or Turd Sandwich, so from an actuarial standpoint, even assuming the usual cowardice on the part of voters, the outcome is not so binary. Compare the drug planks in the Dem 2000 platform with the current planks and a YUUUGE difference leaps out at your face. That is spoiler vote clout as an active agent of evolutionary change (https://tinyurl.com/yyk4b3kd). For my money, the bolt of lightning could fork miraculously and get them both!

          1. …and with our luck, give both of them superpowers: Superdouche vs The Incredible Turd! When Tyrants Clash!

      6. The US has been a fascist country since the Great Depression at least. But it’s democratic fascism, so it’s ok.

        1. the US is fascist only in part. There are only a few industries where government controls production and prices – Obamacare being the defining policy. The US government has lots of places it ‘influences’ production and prices with subsidies and mandates. That’s mildly fascistic.

          1. “Only in part”

            What % of the economy is healthcare, education, housing and food?

            1. I shoulda thrown in transportation and “government”

        2. The US has been a fascist country since the Great Depression at least. But it’s democratic fascism, so it’s ok.

          The US has partly adopted the fascist economic model since the 1930s; that’s a long way from “being a fascist country”.

      7. How colossally moronic. Sure, people with strongly libertarian leanings may not identify/register as Republican—but the two major parties are not a “wash” when it comes to matching libertarian [read: individual liberties; small State; unfettered capitalist] interests.
        Over the last few decades, the GOP has been more closely aligned w/ the above. And, crucially, the difference between the two parties at this *particular* moment in time — w/ the execrable woke phenomenon & its attendant lackeys in academia, media, pop culture, and the ascendant wing of the Democrat party — is fucking STARK. To think otherwise is infantile. (“Fascist,” indeed–how’s freshman year at Vassar?)

      8. What a stupid thing to say.

    2. The first time I saw the name “Howie Hawkins” (the Green Prez candidate) was on the sample ballot I received in the mail two days ago. The Dems are keeping the lunatic fringe on the farm this time around. (Or the lunatic fringe is their center now, not sure which.)

      And my ballot was already harvested I fear. My wife’s real ballot showed up two days ago, but not mine.

    3. Well, there’s your problem. You think Ps are anti-socialist. Why do you keep blaming the Ls? Especially if they’re so small and ineffectual? Why don’t all those freedom loving Ps vote for real fighters for Liberty instead of the garbage they keep putting up for elections? And when the F are the Ps ever going to shrink government? Waiting….

    4. Socialism is all good with Reason, as long as it includes Invasion USA. That’s @Reason’s “core value”. Nothing else really matters.

      Nick:
      In the 21st century, libertarians are going to have make common cause with the globalists of all parties, with the people whose core value is the right of individuals to move freely around the planet.

      Watching The Brink made me think that for all the other differences Reason has with the socialist magazine Jacobin, it may matter far more that we share a belief in open borders.
      https://reason.com/2019/04/12/steve-bannons-economic-nationalism-is-th/

    5. This is true. There’s a difference between libertarians and the LP. The latter is a joke. Not saying that Rs don’t have their unconstitutional bullshit because they have a lot of it. But so long as there is one party that has a solid base that supports 1A and 2A, there is hope for achieving the others. If the party in charge is entirely beholden to the far left that doesn’t support either, the risk is losing it all.
      Oh, and bullshit on all that clout they are talking about within the LP. 1% doesn’t give you clout, and it’s only relevant if you’re willing to give it to someone. Withholding it means that nobody owes you anything.

  4. Reason is now cpmpletely out for 2 trillion dollar public employee bailouts and Biden-Harris

    1. http://twitter.com/kenbone18/status/1313858537991401475?s=19

      All morning the Trump supporters have been nice to me even though I don’t like Trump. The Biden camp has been shitting all over me because I don’t like Biden. Do these people really not see how much this behavior pushes bystanders toward the right?

      1. http://twitter.com/PalmerReport/status/1313883333122830336?s=19

        That’s because Trump supporters are horrible people and they recognize that you’re a horrible person. They’re congratulating you on being the kind of piece of filth that would vote third party in an election like this. Don’t you get it? They’re celebrating your shittiness.

      2. Do these people really not see how much this behavior pushes bystanders toward the right?

        No.

        My NextDoor feed is full of this. I live in a liberal enough area of CA that most people on social media assume that it’s all people on the left and say the most awful things all the time. More and more the quieter Trump supporters have started mentioning how they can’t say anything without getting dogpiled, how you can’t put a Trump sign in your yard without it getting stolen or your house getting vandalized, how you can’t put a Trump sticker on your car or your car will get keyed and/or your windows broken.

        And the responses just double down on the bloodthirst. “Well, you deserve to have your car keyed if you support that monster!!”

        But the first sort of post gets a lot more ‘likes’ than the hostile responses, which is encouraging.

        1. My neighborhood, in a relatively left leaning (so balanced, but left leaning by regional standards) city of northern Florida (20 or so houses, 8-1 Trump/Biden signs) has had all the Trump signs stolen 3 separate occasions.

          1. Good. Honeypot.

            Put up another sign, video the thefts, and prosecute. There should be some political charge beyond petty theft that applies.

            If we don’t fight back with the legal means at our disposal, we have no one but ourselves to blame.

            Any Trump supporter w/o video cams for their home is just not paying attention.

            1. Apparently in NY it can be a felony by specific election law. https://altamontenterprise.com/10252018/stealing-lawn-signs-felony

              “Most laws regarding the placement of lawn signs are local zoning ordinances. The only state law is the Fair Campaign Code in the Board of Elections regulations, 6201.1: § 6201.1 Fair Campaign Code.

              “In order that all political campaigns be conducted under a climate promoting discussion of the issues and presentation of the records and policies of the various candidates, stimulating just debate with respect to the views and qualifications of the candidates and without inhibiting or interfering with the right of every qualified person and political party to full and equal participation in the electoral process, the following is hereby adopted by the New York State Board of Elections pursuant to section 3–106 of the Election Law as the fair campaign code for the State of New York.

              “No person, political party or committee during the course of any campaign for nomination or election to public office or party position shall, directly or indirectly, whether by means of payment of money or any other consideration, or by means of campaign literature, media advertisements or broadcasts, public speeches, press releases, writings or otherwise, engage in or commit any of the following:

              “(a) Practices of political espionage including, but not limited to, the theft of campaign materials or assets, placing one’s own employee or agent in the campaign organization of another candidate, bribery of members of another’s campaign staff, electronic or other methods of eavesdropping or wiretapping.

    2. Ha! This is exchange is pretty good:

      paris:
      “So in other words, you threw away your vote and inadvertently voted for Trump. Cool story, Ken.”

      Ken Bone:
      “I live in Illinois. If it goes red I will sign the deed to my house over to you.
      Keep voter shaming though, it’s great for democracy.”

      1. Ken Bone coming with the sass.

    3. https://mobile.twitter.com/Jorgensen4POTUS/status/1313587342259650560

      Jorgensen should have tweeted stuff like this the whole time instead of the stupid woke stuff.

      1. Sure.
        Unfortunately, she’s already made her priorities clear.

      2. Marianne Williamson-esque, but I agree, certainly better than the tripe she was offering before.

        1. How better? It’s just emotional bullshit, and it doesn’t change any of “the tripe she was offering before”.

      3. Jo really lost me when she voiced support for the racist, socialist organization known as BLM, then tried to say BLM wasn’t an organization but a movement standing against racism, police brutality, etc. like she’s trying to recast them as “libertarian.” WTF!

        I would not vote for her no matter what, based on those statements. And I have been a yellow-dawg libertarian all of my adult life.

  5. Playing spoiler was cute back when the differences between Bush Jr. and Obama–on so many issues–that Reason morphed Bush’s face into Obama’s, and everybody thought it was apropos.

    That shit ain’t funny when one of the parties is campaigning on authoritarian socialism by way of gun grabbing, bailing out the states, packing the Supreme Court, and the Green New Deal.

    If Jo Jorgensen spoiled the election for Trump so that we ended up with Stalin, I would not hail that as a great day in the history of libertarianism. If voting for the Libertarian candidate initiates bun grabbing, packing the Supreme Court, bailing out the state pension plans in California, Illinois, and New York, and the Green New Deal, then you might as well have been a progressive.

    Making a symbolic protest when the progressives that run the Democratic party are trying to implement authoritarian socialism in the real world is worse than futile. It’s enabling.

    1. Because milquetoast moderate Bidenism = “authoritarian socialism”

      In case you hadn’t noticed, the actual socialists lost the Democratic Primary.

      Pete Buttigieg nailed it all the way back in July 2019:
      “It’s true that we embrace a far left agenda, they’re going to say we’re a bunch of crazy socialists. If we embrace a conservative agenda, you know what they’re going to do? They’re going to say we’re a bunch of crazy socialists.”

      1. Everything in Ken’s post is literally in Joe “Moderate” Biden’s campaign platform (possibly with the exception of packing the Supreme Court, which he repeatedly refused to deny he’d do). The moderates among Democrats are crazy socialists.

        1. What Ken has done, and what the Trump shills around here repeatedly do, is take reasonable but bad positions on the left, and wildly extrapolate them into “authoritarian socialism”. As if bailing out pension funds in California means that death camps and gulags are right around the corner.

          Does Biden want to restrict access to some firearms? Yes. Is it equivalent to what actual “authoritarian socialists” do when they want to confiscate all the guns? No.

          Does Biden want to spend a lot of money on green energy boondoggles? Yes. Is it equivalent to AOC’s ridiculous “Green New Deal” plan? No.

          Why can’t you see that this type of demagoguery can backfire on you? Just like it did when left-wing types couldn’t help themselves but accuse Republicans everywhere of wholesale racism all the time. So, mentioning “Chicago” and “Obama” in the same sentence was somehow a racist act, or some stupid shit like that.
          You know what happened? Normal people stopped listening to them. The same will happen to all these ridiculous over-the-top claims of SOCIALISM! everywhere. You are crying wolf when you try to claim that Obama’s third term, which is what Biden would represent, bears any similarity whatsoever to Stalinism. It is absurd and ridiculous. Argue against Biden’s policies ON THE MERITS instead of trying to scare people with lies.

          1. you are such a gullible shill.

            1. He is a lying leftist.

          2. What is reasonable about SCOTUS packing?

          3. They’re literally burning down their own cities. They’re releasing murderers and rapists from prison to make room for people that don’t wear enough cloth on their face. They’re taking complete control over the economy wherever they’re in charge. The Democrats of today are beyond hyperbole. So no, it’s not over-the-top to suggest that they intend to do exactly what they’re announcing they’ll do.

        2. Plus Biden will remain President for probably a year, tops. With a knife-sharpening former prosecutor in the co-pilot’s seat, probably less.

          1. Biden will step down right after his inauguration.

        3. “with the exception of packing the Supreme Court, which he repeatedly refused to deny he’d do”

          At some point, as we repeatedly refuse to deny that we’ll do something, it starts to become more and more like a promise to do it.

      2. Because milquetoast moderate Bidenism = “authoritarian socialism”

        Biden “is the Democratic party”; he said so. That means that Biden will do whatever the party tells him to, and the party is not “milquetoast moderate”, it’s been taken over by radicals.

        1. It means the other way around. The party bends to the will of the president. When Trump was elected, Team Red dutifully fell in line and the Trump naysayers were cast out. When Obama was elected, Team Blue dutifully fell in line and the “blue dog Democrats” were cast out. If Biden is elected, he will not be taking orders from AOC. It will be the other way around. AOC will be forced to side with Bidenism.

          1. It means the other way around. The party bends to the will of the president.

            The phrase literally could mean either.

            In the case of Trump, it means the party bends to his will; we have already seen that.

            In the case of Biden, it means Biden bends to the will of the party. We know that because of how he constructed his platform, what he said about his role as a “transitional” president and the future, and about his ambiguous answers on actual policies.

          2. Just admit youre a fucking leftist already.

          3. dance with the one that brought you

      3. Jeff. Youre a worthless leftist. The biden plan, aka GND, is not moderate fucktard. The price option to end private insurance is not moderate fucktard. Taking guns with Beto as his point man is not moderate.

        Youre either a dishonest leftist or retarded as fuck. Or both.

    2. But hey, Ken, just for shits and giggles, let’s assume you are right and that the Democrats are, this time, supposedly so scary that we all supposedly have a moral imperative to vote for Dear Leader Orange Clown. At what point do we have your permission to safely vote for an actual Libertarian? When Democrats aren’t advocating for “authoritarian socialism” anymore? (Where in this context, “authoritarian socialism” means “mainstream European social democracy”.) In your view, was Obama an “authoritarian socialist”? Did we have an obligation to vote for McCain and Romney in order to stop Obama’s “authoritarian socialism”? What about Bill Clinton or Al Gore? Were they “authoritarian socialists”? Would it ever be “safe” to vote for a Libertarian if you’re going to define everyone to the left of Milton Friedman an “authoritarian socialist”?

      1. Why would the Democrats be scary to you? You support and excuse all of their worst positions. No one who understood your actual beliefs would ever expect you to fear Democrats. It is what you want.

        1. Jeff, like chipper and other assholes here who support and excuse leftist, are only “libertarians” because they live in strong leftist states and think it is trendy to call themselves contrarian. As they agree with every leftist policy.

      2. Bill Clinton would be a Republican now.

        1. Best US President between Reagan and Trump.

      3. Obama was clearly a fascist, at least his centerpiece legislation, Obamacare, was the very definition of fascism.

        But he spoke well and cared about your feelings.

      4. At what point do we have your permission to safely vote for an actual Libertarian?

        Think of the presidential election as the final runoff vote in a two round runoff voting system like France. Voting for something other than the listed Round 2 candidates is like throwing away your vote.

        You want to vote for libertarian candidates? You have to make it happen during Round 1, which in the US are called “the primaries”.

        1. What Libertarian candidate ran in either branch of the Duopoly’s primaries? “Libertarianish” Rand Paul?

          1. Yes. Not enough selection for you? Run for office.

            The purpose of the US (and other multi-stage) system is to winnow out candidates that are outside the mainstream, and narrow things down to a set of interchangeable candidates. It’s by design, and it’s a good thing. Libertarians are outside the mainstream so they tend to be filtered out early.

    3. The Dem platform of 2000 said: …tougher punishments – including the death penalty…
      We should send a strong message to every American child: drugs are wrong, and drugs can kill you. We need to dry up drug demand, hold up drugs at the border, and break up the drug rings that are spreading poison on our streets. We should open more drug courts, to speed justice for drug-related crimes; double the number of drug hot-spots where we aggressively target our enforcement efforts; expand drug treatment for at-risk youth; and make sure that all of our school zones are drug-free zones – by stiffening the penalties to those who would use children to peddle drugs… Now, after 20 years of increasing LP vote share it says: We will ensure no one is incarcerated solely for drug use… It is past time to end the failed “War on Drugs,” which has imprisoned millions of Americans. Trumpistas too will change their planks after being whopped upside the head with a 2×4 defeat, je je je.

      1. Bingo. For years libertarian sympathizers said the LP was hurting its brand by focusing on the War on Drugs. But it’s pretty much the only platform plank that is now being enacted by the two older parties.

    4. “If voting for the Libertarian candidate initiates bun grabbing…”

      An appropriate typo, considering Biden might win…

    5. But Jorgensen’s votes don’t belong to the Republicans. Libertarians are split pretty evenly between left, right and independent. Most of them would stay home if they had to vote for Trump or Biden.

      1. Tell it to Welch. That used to be the party line, in which case it’s impossible to be a spoiler, as John was pointing out downthread.

        Things seem to have changed.

      2. So which is it?

        1] It doesn’t matter because it splits left and right
        2] Libertarians carry clout because they could make the difference in the vote

        If you ARE able to make a difference but choose not to, you have no clout. Clout is achieved by using your power, not withholding it.

        The first point is debatable and probably more previously true than it is now. It’s kinda hard for someone to declare themselves a libertarian and still vote for the party that has solidly moved towards thwarting both the 1st and 2nd Amendments.

  6. I voted for JoJo FWIW. Trump isn’t going to win Virginia anyway and if I can help her get at least a million votes and take a vote away from the progs, that’s something.

    I am really tired of the Trumptards here telling me that their leader is the best libertarians can do.

    1. My Trump supporting friends tell me my Libertarian vote will be the reason Trump loses. Never thought my sole vote would be that important to flip an election.

      1. My state is a lock for Amtrak Joe, so I have no qualms voting LP. I’d vote that way if I were the proverbial tie-breaker.

        Now, if they wanted to cut a deal….

        Secy of Repealing Stuff has a nice ring to it. 🙂

    2. I am really tired of the Trumptards here telling me that their leader is the best libertarians can do.

      Under ranked choice, you vote for the best candidate.

      Under the system we have (and most other voting systems), you have guess who is most likely to win and then pick among them.

      Is that intellectually too difficult for you?

      1. Sadly, it appears to be = Is that intellectually too difficult for you?

      2. you have guess who is most likely to win and then pick among them.

        Do you get a prize if you guess right?

        1. Yes, you do! Your prize is that the country is more likely to get the kind of president you want.

          1. What if you don’t like either candidate, and also don’t believe that either candidate will bring about the literal end of life as we know it?

            1. Then you haven’t been paying attention to the left in 2020.
              Welcome to the new normal, comrade.

            2. What if you don’t like either candidate, and also don’t believe that either candidate will bring about the literal end of life as we know it?

              Since candidates have to represent 330 million people on dozens of issues, the vast majority of Americans will always strongly dislike any one candidate for office.

              If you think you have reasonable insights into who would be better, then vote for that person. If you don’t, stay at home because you have nothing to contribute and just add noise to the selection process.

              1. Voting for the Not Winner reduces any claimed mandate by a homeopathic amount. Molecule adds to molecule, and you have a droplet. Drop adds to drop and there’s a trickle, a stream, a river, a lake and, one day, a tide in the ocean.

                We aren’t at the stream level, most places.

                1. As I was saying: your kind of voting strategy is driven by an ignorance of Duverger’s law and WTA voting systems.

                2. Quit the bullshit. It doesn’t reduce ANY claimed mandate. Nobody chooses one direction or the other because of an irrelevant 1% who just hate everyone else.

                  Also, if you are waiting for the tide, consider that after 50 years in business, the LP isn’t adding molecules either. It’s the same puddle as it was back then. There’s not a serious person in the country that would consider having a “former LP presidential candidate” attached to their name for life. Which is exactly why there’s a never-was from 24 years ago running with a #2 guy named Spike.

    3. How did you like McAuliffe, NoVaNick? Great Governor, right? Totally didn’t grease the skids for Governor Blackface, the gun banner. And voting for Sarvis really showed the GOP where they screwed up. I mean, look at the accommodations towards the Libertarian Party that the VA GOP ended up making.

      Jo may fulfill exactly the same role here, for the rest of us. You got to show how independent you are though, and really, that’s the most important thing.

      1. Sarvis actually pulled more votes from McAuliffe than from Cuccinelli, who I had voted for

  7. The Democrats have been bedeviled by the third party for many years and so it enjoyable to see it happen to Republicans. Jo will not win but it would be nice to see some more Libertarians in Congress. I wonder if Jo could have coat tails in one of these states and maybe pull in a few Libertarians into seat in city, county or state races?

    1. The more votes she gets the more it will matter.

      The libertarian candidate for president is Jo Jorgensen.

      She needs our support and our vote.

      1. Okay. But if you claim is that you don’t owe either party your vote, then you need to tell people like Welch to stop bragging about tipping elections. You just won votes, you didn’t tip anything unless your voters somehow owed their votes to one party or the other if only they were worthy.

        Also, if your claim is both parties are the same, then claiming all of your votes come from one party or another undermines that. If both parties are the same and you are better, why aren’t people from both parties voting for you?

        1. That’s a valid criticism. However, Welch is writing for a wide audience, and I think the Reason writers typically disregard us degenerate scumbags in the comment section anyway.

          From what I’ve seen/heard, Democrats have been much more vocal and adamant that voting for Jorgensen will tip the election to their opponent. So maybe Welch is just trying to shut up screeching, hysterical leftists by emphasizing the red-state margins.

          Or maybe something something cocktail parties.

          1. The Democratic ticket has attracted the entire anti-Trump spectrum. Joe Biden could be a cardboard cutout. No third party nonsense this time. Expect the perpetually disaffected left to return to form in 2024.

            1. Great! I’ll get an extra 55-gallon drum to collect the salty tears that will be flowing on Nov 4 (or whenever they get around to making it official)

            2. Excuse me. Did you just refer to my preferred party as nonsense?

              1. Only the activity of voting for them. But my beef is not with libertarians but with leftists who do this, since their actions led directly to the presidencies of W. and Trump.

                1. How dare they not vote the way the Party demands! Amirite, comrade? The Party DEMANDS their votes!!! They belong to the Party!!!

        2. I never said that Democrats are the same as Republicans.

          My choice is Libertarian. Clear now?

          1. Partisan Hack

            You’d vote TEAM L even if William Weld was on the ticket.

            1. She is intelligent, speaks in complete sentences, scandal free, focused, and I agree with her platform. Why would I not vote for her.

              If you agree with Donald Trump or Joe Biden vote for one of them.

              1. Intelligent people understand what critical race theory is based on.

                1. I have never read a paragraph about critical race theory. Racism I understand as do most Americans. I know it when I see it and I am actively opposed to it. Are libertarians actively opposed to gun control, the drug war, asset forfeiture and other issues. Yes we are. Racism and bigotry have no place in the libertarian movement or party.

                  We are at risk of being co-opted by other groups from both left and right. I think Jo Jo has done a terrific job sticking to the basic platform and getting the message out.

            2. If he could actually win, I’d have to think about that.

          2. A dumb choice in a WTA election system.

    2. no, the LP won’t win any state races. maybe non-partisan local races, but not likely. it would be cool to see the Free State Project get some LP members in the state assembly or going to Congress, but they seem to accomplish more by running on the major party labels.

      1. I actually have a Libertarian choice for state senate, in addition to the Democrat. This is where CA’s dumbass “only two candidates in the General” rule may come back to bite its authors.

  8. Voter fraud, Hillary, COVID, BLM, Antifa, an early frost….Just another excuse for Trump to use should he lose the election.

  9. Just so we’re clear: the premise of this article is that JoJo is effectively campaigning for Biden, no?

    1. No, it is not. That’s not how campaigning works.

      1. She may not intend that but the premise of this article is that she is having that effect. Beyond that, the more interesting premise is that Jorgunson is only attracting people who would otherwise be voting for Trump. If she were attracting an equal or comparable number of people who would otherwise be voting for Biden, her presence would have little or no effect on the final result.

        That premise is a bit odd when you consider Welch is forever talking about how Democrats are natural allies of Libertarians on so many issues. How is it that Democrats are the LP’s natural allies yet only people who would otherwise vote Republican are supporting the LP nominee?

        It is almost like Welch is a fucking moron or something.

        1. “If she were attracting an equal or comparable number of people who would otherwise be voting for Biden, her presence would have little or no effect on the final result.”

          That used to be the argument the LP, and this magazine’s writers, made here. Seems it’s been shelved for the time being.

          1. Third parties sometimes attract those who would otherwise not vote, and give “undecideds” somewhere to land. There are so few Us left the Ds and Rs are knife-fighting for them in the “swing states.”

  10. Libertarians are forever talking about how they don’t owe either party their votes. They would be a lot more convincing if dumb asses like Welch didn’t constantly brag about Libertarians flipping elections to Democrats. If you don’t owe either party your vote, then you didn’t flip the election. The only way you flipped the election is if you assume that the votes somehow belonged to either party if only they were worthy.

    Welch is just a fucking leftist hoping to make Libertarians useful idiots. This kind of bullshit doesn’t help their cause it just causes one side to see Libertarians as useful idiots and the other to hate them.

    1. Welch is just a fucking leftist hoping to make Libertarians useful idiots.

      Welch has been driven to the brink of insanity by his blinding hatred of Trump. It really is that simple.

    2. Yes Welch is pale blue. Like that really ugly Dodger blue.

  11. It would be nice if we could all agree that the Republican party is the worst. Libertarians should help destroy the Republican party by voting for Democrats in battleground states and Democrats should vote for libertarians in the blood red states.

    1. Pod….just go away.

      1. You sad that your political reality is melting down around you into a wet, sticky puddle of disease?

      2. Here’s why I won’t abandon this place. I actually like Libertarians. And I want Democrats to adopt some libertarian positions and when they do it I want the Democrats to credit Libertarians for coming up with the ideas. I’m open minded like that.

        1. They don’t like you, Pod. A case of unrequited affection.

        2. when they do it I want the Democrats to credit Libertarians for coming up with the ideas

          They won’t.

        3. Yes, that’s exactly what Donkeys did when same sex marriage was made legal. And that’s exactly what Donkeys did when cannabis was made legal.

          Oh, wait….

          1. This place was squishy at best on same sex marriage.

              1. The prevailing sentiment, if memory serves, was that government should improbably stop issuing marriage licenses altogether the moment the gays wanted them.

                I will absolutely give libertarians the trophy for marijuana legalization.

                1. The prevailing sentiment, if memory serves, was that government should improbably stop issuing marriage licenses altogether the moment the gays wanted them.

                  No. The prevailing sentiment was “since government is in the business of issuing marriage licenses, it should do so without discrimination.”

                  The position you’re describing was in the minority except in the sense that I think we all agree that government should “improbably stop issuing marriage licenses altogether,” with varying degrees of addressing the pragmatic knowledge that they’re not going to.

                  The “marriage licenses should stay but shouldn’t be given to gays” stance was only held by the resident Republicans, whom you’ve always conflated with libertarians, even though they’re constantly bitching about how much they hate libertarians (just like you).

                  1. I guess the real credit should go to former Justice Anthony Kennedy anyway, if we’re talking national legalization, and it could fairly be said he was acting from a libertarian impulse.

                    On the other hand, it started in the states, and I could be wrong but I think that was all Democrats and no Republicans (thanks to their explicit antigay platform) or libertarians (thanks to their lack of power).

                  2. How long ago was it that Democrats such as Obama and Clinton said that marriage was between a man and a woman, but gays should get civil unions? Pretty sure libertarians supported gay marriage long before that.

                    Oh wait, I forgot we’re talking to Tony, who’s a dishonest piece of shit.

          2. Matter of fact, I distinctly remember Tony pretending no one had ever thought about either of those two issues before the Democrats brought them up.

    2. Libertarians should help destroy the Republican party by voting for Democrats in battleground states and Democrats should vote for libertarians in the blood red states.

      And we could totally trust the Dems to keep up their end on that, I’m sure.

  12. We’ll see how that polling matches the results. In any case I am not terribly worried about people voting third party as that is meaningless and unlikely to spoil it. What I am concerned about is that people may be voting for Biden the Puppet and his Bitch Queen who will rule. They should worry libertarians as well. You may not like Trump’s style and some of his decisions, but you will deeply regret it if the democrats get their way.

    1. Will Biden infect the entire government with a deadly virus in order to maintain a psychological relationship with the dumbest people in society?

      1. Well you’re still here Tony. So I guess it didn’t work.

        1. As has been amply demonstrated, we of the left took this disease seriously and so our candidate and his entire staff aren’t infected.

          1. Ah, but the disease you share with Leftists is one of a wasting intellect.

            1. Still smart enough not to get our entire campaign and the joint chiefs infected with covid.

              1. How much do you want to bet that every single one of them survives?

          2. By “we of the left” he means the Communist Chinese Dictatorship with its germ labs.

          3. Trump and many in his group exercised FREE choice on how they would behave. And some, including the Orange Man, have now contracted the ‘deadly’ virus. I applaud them for exercising the courage of their convictions and remaining free men rather than bowing to the bleeting of the crowd (and Fauci).

            And how does anyone know that wearing a mask would have changed anything? You don’t, because masks are at best marginally effective.

            1. Most important line of the debate, delivered by VP Pence:

              We trust Americans to make decisions about their own healthcare.

      2. Trump’s administration is immune to COVID going into a second term.

        Biden and his staff are still susceptible and highly at risk for complications and death: not good.

  13. What people need to understand about many of his followers is that in their need for a parental figure who will take care of them, his position alone justifies whatever he does, and any exposure of his fraudulence and criminality will be experienced as an existential threat to them, which is why it only activates defensive denial, disavowal and protection of their “protector.”

    1. Tony needs to unnerstan’ that God’s Own Prohibitionists take their marching orders from the Prohibition Party platform. It says to shoot kids over plant leaves and use men with guns to force females into involuntary reproduction because race suicide and Jesus said. Like 1933 Germans, they and Tony imagine a dimensionless line with two ends: godless communism and Positive Christian fascism, and choose by hateful elimination. Gradual change via spoiler vote clout is what really happens–just not overnight.

      1. If we must put labels on things, I would say I’m firmly in the godless social democracy camp.

  14. I suggest people go to iSideWith.com and take the quiz on the issues.

    Personally, I agree with 88% with Trump, 83% with Jorgensen, and 21% with Biden.

    In fact, Trump and Jorgensen agree on the majority of issues, while Biden and Jorgensen disagree strongly on issues. The idea that Trump and Biden are equally bad from a libertarian point of view is ludicrous.

    1. Of course the do. But Trump is icky and supported by people that a certain type of stupid white person, who constitute the entire staff of reason, loathes. So, you must vote for Jorgensen to show your class loyalty.

      Welch is just a fucking leftist. But for the staff that are not, their reasoning is really that shallow.

      1. I wonder if he was that way before he married a French woman. The French are insane in their politics on both sides of the divide.

    2. Reason forever tells us that there is no difference between the parties. Yet, here, Welch is assuming that only people who would otherwise be voting for Trump are voting for Jorgunson. If it were otherwise, her effect on the final result would be small or if they were even nil or maybe even to help Trump.

      If Welch were not such an idiot, he might wonder how he can claim those to things to be true.

    3. The aNOYing Trumpista leaves out that in a fractional-reserve banking system, faith-based prohibitionist asset forfeiture, fines and confiscations cause asset flight which induces liquidity crunches, crashes and depressions as in 1907, 1920, 1929, 1971, 1987 and 2008. Those were Republican Crashes. The Obama administration, also into shooting kids over plant leaves, had two Flash Crashes quickly covered-up and downplayed. Republican looter fascism causes way more damage than Dem’s rotting communism.

      1. The aNOYing Trumpista leaves out that in a fractional-reserve banking system, faith-based prohibitionist asset forfeiture, fines and confiscations cause asset flight which induces liquidity crunches, crashes and depressions as in 1907, 1920, 1929, 1971, 1987 and 2008. Those were Republican Crashes.

        First of all, the business cycle is a fact of life; neither Republican nor Democrat will be able to get around that. Political differences are mostly in how government responds to it and how quickly the country recovers, and progressives and Keynesians have a piss-poor record in that.

        Second, Trump isn’t the Republican party; that’s why a lot of Republicans are Never Trumpers. That’s why McCain, part of the Keating Five and author of McCain-Feingold, hated Trump’s guts.

        Third, Trump obviously is taking a different approach towards banking, the business cycle, and finance than traditional Republicans, as is clear from is regulatory changes, his fight against the CFPB, and his nominations to the Fed.

        Thanks for making such a good case against pre-2016 Republicans and actually making a case for Trump.

    4. I took it in 2016 and wound up something like 93% in agreement with GJ. Trump was in about the middle of the list (this was while the primaries were still going), and HRC was down at the very bottom next to Chris Christie.

      It was also interesting to note that Chris Christie and HRC weren’t actually distinguishable from one another in policy terms.

      1. Same here: I was more in agreement with GJ than Trump in 2016, and didn’t vote for Trump.

        Trump seems to have become more libertarian on current issues, and Jorgensen just isn’t a particularly good candidate.

        1. Trump seems to have become more libertarian on current issues, and Jorgensen just isn’t a particularly good candidate.

          It’s true – she’s not. I like her in the abstract, and think she’s probably a great professor, but if I’m being honest I don’t want to see her in the White House. Trump is good on some issues, middling on others, and awful on some. Biden is middling on some, awful on most.

          My sentiments turn pretty much 100% on Congress. I dread, and I mean absolutely dread, the thought of Biden/Harris with Democratic majorities in both chambers. But there’s no way they don’t get clobbered in the midterms if that happens, and a Republican victory in 2024 would be all but guaranteed.

          If Trump wins and gets Democrats dominant in both chambers, I think the real world outcome would certainly be more positive than Biden in the same situation, but it’s going to be four years of truly insufferable interactions between them, and we probably get a Democrat in 2024.

          I think the best outcomes involve a Republican Congress, but I think we all know that’s not in the cards.

          So given that the whole thing from my perspective is full of contingencies I have no control over, and that California is virtually certain to go for Biden, I can vote for someone who at least casts an ideological tint on my tiny little voice.

          1. “If Trump wins and gets Democrats dominant in both chambers, I think the real world outcome would certainly be more positive than Biden in the same situation, but it’s going to be four years of truly insufferable interact”

            No, it would be nothing but impeachment over some bullshit.

            1. They’d then have to impeach Pence as well to get into power.

    5. 92% Jorgensen
      87% Trump
      5% Biden

      This might be the first time in 40 years of eligibility I vote for a major party presidential candidate in a general election.

    6. 91% Trump
      87% JoJo
      17% some guy I’ve never heard of
      4% Green dude
      3% Biden

      What I’m struck by is how Green party can somehow be less shitty than Biden.
      Also, some dated questions (refugees from Syria, wtf) and nothing about critical race theory, school choice, corporate censorship, intel agency malfeasance, or trade policy.
      Some big omissions there.

    7. This. “Libertarians” seem to have such a massive hatred for Republicans despite a decent amount of common ground and more openness to discussion. The party seems like mostly leftists and Reason abandons the core principles of libertarianism to side with Democrats. I’m conservative/libertarian and am registered as independent, but on essentially no position do I agree with the Democrats. Isidewith isn’t perfect, but it does at least highlight this fact that Reason chooses to ignore

  15. Gary’s 4.5 million spoiler votes caused looters infiltrating the LP platform and nominating committees to sabotage in high gear. She is now burdened with a plank that says to import terrorist-driven herds of infected cattle and a communist anarchist libpersonator designed to make all of us look like Antifans crapping in the streets in arson-lit riotsville. Without those 5th column efforts we’d expect closer to 27 million votes by logistic curve-fit extrapolation. We will soon be able to quantify the actual damage done by possuting the platform and albatrossing Jo’s campaign with the Brainless & Boothead infiltrator.

    1. That’s putting it mildly. More reason to vote Librarian this time. For the books.

    2. More likely Jorgensen will get 1 percent compared to Johnson’s 3 percent, since she’s not a successful two term governor (who was more qualified than Trump or Clinton).

  16. Fringe parties rarely if ever tip elections. For a fringe party to tip an election it has to attract more voters from the losing side than the margin of the loss. This is very unlikely especially for the LP for two reasons. First, the LP draws a significant number of Democrats. So whatever number of votes they cost Trump will have to be reduced by the votes they draw away from Biden. Second the LP only cost a major party a vote if someone who voted LP would have actually voted for a major party had the LP not been an option. And I think such people are very rare. If you are turned off by the major parties enough to vote for a fringe party chances are you just wouldn’t vote at all if the fringe party was not an option. So the vast majority of people who vote for Jorgunson likely would never have voted at all had she not been an option.

    I think Welch is just engaging in revenge fantasy against Trump here.

    1. Maybe so, but there is the set of 3rd party voters that were turned off by the major party’s specific candidate. Definitely was the case with the Greens and Hillary. May be the case with the Libertarians and Trump.

      Of course, if Biden’s lead is so big that even Rasmussen is saying he’s up by double digits, then none of this matters anyway. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/519999-rasmussen-biden-leads-trump-by-12-points-nationally

      1. He got 35%. That is not fringe.

      2. He had money.

        Jo has a bus.

        1. Jo has a 20th-Century party with 48 years’ experience–including the Roe v Wade decision copied from our first platform. The LP, though hobbled by looter infiltration, is the party for the nuclear ERA.

  17. spoiler? good. even if not true, the more people who believe it the better. (we pull way more who lean left than people think.) i know there will be the idiots like those here who will cry and try to insult us into supporting the duoppoly, because they think theirs is the team we would pick……. but eventually, maybe the message will start to sink in. stop catering to your nut-jobs in your base, and start paying attention to what most of America actually wants. start doing more than telling us how bad the other “side” is. we know the other side sucks….. that is why we are not voting for them either….. the continuing exodus to the libertarian party ends one of two ways. your party changes to address the concerns of those leaving or it dies. the longer until you get this message, the more votes we take. given enough time, you will become our spoiler.

    1. Jorgunson’s going to get five percent maybe. And a good number of that five percent will come from the other party. So it makes zero sense for either party to alienate their base which is 25 percent or more of the electorate to cater to some part of five percent that may or may not vote for you even if you do cater to them.

      Sorry kid but the parties just are not into you. If Libertarian ideas as a package instead of the odd single issue championed by a major party, one of the major parties would have long ago become Libertarian.

      1. the base are your blind followers. they will vote for you no matter what. you only have to fight for the votes that are at risk of leaving. they are not fighting for you, they are taking you for granted.

    2. the continuing exodus to the libertarian party ends one of two ways. your party changes to address the concerns of those leaving or it dies. the longer until you get this message

      You’re clearly delusional.

      1. the republican party came into being from the ashes of the Whig party….. the republican party once was the party representing the minority of Americans who were being ignored by the 2 existing major parties. this isn’t delusion, it is a history lesson. had he whigs taken up the counter position to allowing slavery, like republicans wanted, the GOP would never have existed to now make the exact same mistakes.

  18. A few things to consider:
    1. People lie to pollsters.
    2. Pollsters lie about their results.
    3. Math is hard.

    (citations for all of the above: Every poll in 2016)

  19. I suspect that most Jorgensen supporters in swing states will vote for either Trump or Biden, and most will vote for Trump.

    In 2016 I was planning to vote for Johnson three weeks before the election, but voted for Trump (helping him win PA).

    I think Trump will win PA again, but the Dems and news media have tryied to sabotage that victory.

  20. “Our candidate beats the spread between the other two candidates.” In today’s youth parlance, weird flex, Reason.

  21. The purpose of voting is not to send a message or express your unhappiness. There are other ways to do those things. The purpose of voting in a general election is to elect the person who will do the best job. Without regard to his personality.

    1. voting for Jorgensen is voting for the person who will do the best job AND sending a message.

  22. Oh look, another horse race article.

    ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…………….

  23. I voted Libertarian when I could in most past elections but back then, both parties were equally bad. Not really the case this time. With the electoral system as it is, Libertarians will get 0% with or without my vote.
    se

  24. Jorgenson is not a Libertarian. She’s an open borders Leftist who wears waaaaay to much make-up. Please, don’t waste your vote on Jorgenson. If you don’t vote for our buffoonish President Trump, you are inviting socialism. Period. Trump’s an asshole but the Democrats are evil. Think before you vote.

    1. It is your choice to vote for and support a buffoonish asshole.

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  26. She supports BLM.

    Pass.

    1. if you can support trump for all his failings, but you dismiss her over one thing you don’t like…… you are a hypocrite.

  27. She will get far fewer votes than Gary Johnson whom I did vote for twice.
    Time for Libertarians to focus on local races, house and senate races and Libertarian leaning candidates from other parties. We will not see a Libertarian candidate win the Presidential election. I was hoping Gary Johnson would approach 5%.
    Unless we get someone with some charisma and celebrity to engage the masses we’ll not move policy in our direction.

  28. “If I could sit around the kitchen table of every American family in this country,” [Jorgensen] she says, “I would win by a landslide.”

    So, why not simply run as a Republican or a Democrat? If Marianne Williamson can run for the Democratic party’s nomination, and Trump could run for the Republican party’s nomination, Jorgensen should have just picked one or the other and run for it.

    1. the problem is the 15% of the population that has taken over the base of each party. (each party only has a little over 30% of registered voters.) if you don’t want to tell transgenders where to pee, end gay marriage, end abortion, grow the military, and bring prayer back to public school…. you can’t get nominated as a republican. if you don’t want to legally ban use of the wrong pronoun, push government run healthcare, take the money of the rich, and give people all the “free” stuff they want…. you can’t get nominated as a democrat. each party represents a set of positions only held by a minority of the population, but the party apparatus prevents any significant infiltration by the “normals.”

    2. She is a libertarian. Not a Republican or Democrat.

      1. Being a libertarian isn’t being a Libertarian. It’s a sociopolitical philosophy, not a weird American political party.

        1. Supporting and voting for Donald Trump is not being a Trump supporting Republican. It is only acting like one.

          Denigrating Libertarians as a “weird political party” is not anti libertarian. It is part of a sociopolitical philosophy.

          I get it.

  29. Elect Democrats, vote Libertarian!

    1. Elect prohibition killers, asset forfeiture, prison terms, coathanger abortions, Crashes, Depressions, poverty and upticks in communism. You can throw away 0.00000007% of the vote on 19th-century mystical bigots or vote Libertarian and make God’s looters wish they’d improved their hand by drawing some of our planks.

  30. My spreadsheet shows the LP’s 4.5M votes exceeded the gap in 13 States, NM, MN, ME, MI, CO, NV, NH, WI, AZ, PA, FL, VA, GA. Together they held 127 electoral votes. The Dems understood perfectly that we dismembered their campaign, and got rid of all drug prison term and asset forfeiture language. God’s Own Prohibitionists reiterate their intention to imprison and rob people via asset forfeiture because of plant leaves. You are about to again see evolution in action via spoiler vote clout.

    1. Comments from 1993

  31. Hey, remember when everyone at this publication vocally supported the Iraq War, except for Sheldon Richman who was replaced with self-described “neocon libertarian” Cathy Young?

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