Coronavirus

Don't Force Schools to Reopen, but Don't Force Families To Pay for Closed Schools Either

We should fund students instead of systems.

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School closures have affected at least 55 million K-12 students in the U.S. since March. As we march closer to the fall, a debate about reopening brick-and-mortar schools is heating up. President Donald Trump and others are pressuring all schools to reopen in the fall. Teachers unions and other groups are saying that schools should stay closed unless we pour over 100 billion new federal dollars into the system. Both sides are missing the mark. 

Those calling to reopen schools have legitimate concerns. Millions of American families have structured their employment and living situations around the school calendar. Keeping schools closed would create disproportionate economic hardships for single-parent households and two-parent households that rely on two incomes.

Some school districts, such as Fairfax County Public Schools, have offered families the choice to send their children to brick-and-mortar schools for 2 days a week or 0 days a week. New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio recently announced that most students will only attend in-person classes 2 or 3 days a week. But those kinds of options do little to help parents return to work full-time.

That's not the only problem. New national data suggest that most government school districts failed to provide meaningful education remotely. A June 2020 report by the Center for Reinventing Public Education found that only 1 in the 3 school districts required teachers to deliver instruction during the lockdown. Recent data suggest students have already lost ground academically because of these kinds of systemic failures. 

Between the complete closures of some schools and the poor performance of schools that have implemented distance learning, taxpayers are paying a lot of money for inadequate education for their children. Nor was the status quo before COVID-19 anything to celebrate. The U.S. has increased inflation-adjusted per-student spending by 280 percent since 1960, and we currently spend over $15,000 per child each year. Meanwhile, the Nation's Report Card shows that only 15 percent of U.S. students are proficient in U.S. history and 2 out of every 3 students are not proficient in reading

Reasonable people can argue about whether we are getting an acceptable return on investment. But why should anyone have to continue paying the same amount for schools that aren't even open?

The American Federation of Teachers claims that government-run schools across the country need over $116 billion to reopen safely. That's an enormous amount of money. It's about twice the total amount the federal government allocated towards K-12 education in the most recent school year. It's also close to the amount the U.S. dedicated to the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after World War II. What's more, the federal CARES act has already provided over $13 billion to assist in reopening schools. Only 1.5 percent of that money has actually been used by states. Where is all of the money going? 

The debate thus far hasn't taken the preferences of families—the customers who are actually paying for all this education—into consideration. 

Many families are reporting that they want virtual learning for their children next year. A new national study found that 53 percent of Latino families are considering not enrolling their children in school this year. A June Gallup survey similarly found that 44 percent of families want full- or part-time distance learning this fall. And a recent USA Today poll found that 60 percent of parents are "likely" to pursue home-based education this fall.

Already, teachers unions have made it hard for parents to enroll their kids in quality distance learning programs. The teachers union in Oregon successfully lobbied to prevent families from enrolling in virtual charter schools. The Pennsylvania Association of School Administrators similarly lobbied to prevent families from accessing virtual charter school options in the spring. More recently, the California legislature just passed a bill that prevents education dollars from following students to virtual charter schools this school year. And it's not like they're demanding to do the teaching themselves. The Los Angeles teachers union struck a deal with their district that prevented teachers from being required to work more than 4 hours each day during the lockdown. None of these efforts make any sense unless the purpose is to protect a monopoly from competition. 

Families obviously need more options right now. But, at the same time, top-down mandates to reopen all schools are not the optimal solution. Reopening requirements likely differ by region and individuals on the ground have the best information needed to make good decisions about their own communities. And if public schools can't reopen, or aren't equipped to provide adequate education online, families shouldn't be forced to pay for them. Think of it this way: If a Walmart doesn't reopen, families can take their food stamps elsewhere. If a school doesn't reopen, families should similarly be able to take their education dollars elsewhere.

If the federal government is to provide any additional stimulus funding for K-12 education, a significant portion of that money should go directly to families, an idea just proposed by U.S. Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos. Families could use those dollars to offset the costs of home-based education or to cover private school tuition and fees. However, as Dr. Lindsey Burke has proposed, states could also implement this kind of student-centered solution without unnecessarily involving the federal government.

Putting power into the hands of families would give schools incentives to provide their children with a good education. In fact, a national survey by Common Sense Media found that students in private schools were over twice as likely as students in government schools to connect with their teacher each day during lockdown. This is probably because private school leaders know that they will lose their customers—and their funding—if they don't meet their needs. Schools that provide shoddy remote learning, do not provide flexible scheduling arrangements, or do not sufficiently address student safety will lose students and their funding. 

That's how the education system should work. We should fund students instead of systems. The power should always be in the hands of families instead of bureaucrats. Proponents of educational freedom have always known this. But the powerlessness of families and their children caught up in pandemic politics makes it clearer now more than ever before.

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  1. School closures have affected at least 55 million

    That should be the only information necessary for any rational citizen to understand that the cost for the reactions to this ridiculously hyped pandemic are far out of proportion to the relative danger to the population as a whole. How many kids educations should be sacrificed so that people already in danger of dying from any virus don’t die from this virus? 55,000,000 apparently. All to potentially prevent another maybe 140,000 deaths that were just around the corner anyway.

    I hope Fauci and all the other unscientific Science!tists get COVID and die gasping for air like they deserve. Epidemiology has always been a social science, but is now just a branch of political science.

    1. Furthermore, even if they are correct regarding the risk it makes one wonder how sending kids to school two days a week is significantly different than sending them 5 days a week.

      And if you can ‘opt out’ and not send your kid at all, one might wonder if this continues long enough if every kid in the country will be held back a grade.

      1. I’m already expecting it every kid in the country will be held back two years.

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        2. They probably won’t be held back a year or two because of it, but only because it affects everyone, and when everyone fails, it’s the system that loses face.

          Education has its objective standards, but these have almost always given way to subjective or relative standards as necessary to “prove” that educators are doing the job. Starting about the time of my school education, schools were reassessing what a kid of that age/grade should know and determining that their previous standards “were too high”. Thus, my much younger brother by more than a decade was learning stuff as a senior that I did as a sophomore.

          In other words, the system was looking severely flawed by its own standards, so they reset the goalposts. Those goalposts have been reset many more times and are about to be moved again, almost certainly “because the old ones are racist”. Quite a few school systems are already reevaluating expectations because the quota of minority children aren’t hitting them. And while race may also play a role in the excuses, that would likely be just the distraction so that nobody indicts the system that has failed everyone. Rather than raise the standards or the ones that are failing, bring everyone down to the lower level, and excuse it [if noticed] as a call to racial equities.

          It’s an ugly truth, but still the truth. Education is afterall, a completely political sport from the elected school board up to those appointed by politicians at state and local levels, and all the way down to the teachers that must bend to the will of those politicians.

          1. You have a point.

      2. The 2 day a week is so you can stagger the kids, some come in Mon/Wed, some come in Tues/Thursday. So you can space the desks further apart (cut class room sizes in half).
        Note, when kids aren’t in school, they are expect to be learning online. How a teacher is supposed to teach a live class at the same time as a remote class hasn’t been discussed.
        The 5th day s is to sanitize the school.
        Kids will be spaced on buses as well.
        Pretty sure no after school activity.
        Not sure how this helps with daycare.

        1. See, there you go concentrating on details and bringing up problems when all the “big picture” guys just want you to applaud their vision that they were just going to let the teachers figure out. Don’t worry…. they just have to get more money out of you and that will fix everything. I bet you also never fully appreciated those whose contribution was “bringing awareness”.

    2. If anyone needs more proof that schools are run for the teachers and administration, and not the children or the public, the opposition to re-opening should disabuse them.

      As of Wed, 7/8/20, there have been 29 Covid-19 deaths of children under the age of 14 [https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and-S/9bhg-hcku].

      TWENTY-NINE across the entire country.

      Kids are not in danger, so the usual “for the children” bullshit doesn’t cut it.

      Note, also, the win-win for the AFT: teachers get paid more for doing less, AND it screws up the economy to get rid of BadOrangeMan.

      1. Exactly…it kills me that Teachers Unions and Politicians keep talking about keeping schools safe, when what they mean keep old people safe.
        No one seems to care about the real and serious harm that we are doing to kids by not letting them go to school!

        1. Actually, yes. We DO care about children. There is a problem. The tRump administration expects us to keep the kids safe without giving us the resources. If you have a classroom that has enough space to house 15 socially distanced children but used to house 25 children, WHAT are you going to do about those extra children. We can use labs, cafeterias, etc. to space them out, but where is the extra staff supposed to come from? Who is going to pay that? Maybe SOME schools get $15K plus per year for each student, but I can tell you that it is not every school. For those uninformed people among you who think that all the unions do is protect teachers, you obviously do NOT know what a teacher’s life is like. Contrary to popular opinion, we DO care about kids. That is why most of us work long hours beyond the school day with lesson plans, grading, providing tutoring services to our kids. Our unions have fought for additional teaching assistants because the special education students, the students with disabilities, the English Language Learners all need additional support. We buy supplies out of our own pocket every year so that students can have the minimum that they need for an education. We buy coats, hats, gloves, and even basic clothing for our kids. No one repays that money. We work to get parents connected with the social services that they need. We buy lunch for students who do not have money to pay for it. In essence, we DO give a fuck. There are a lot of students who rely on their grandparents for care. Those caregivers are part of a vulnerable population. A little over 8% if our students have asthma. Those children are at increased risk. Children ages 9-18 are in the age group most likely to transmit the virus. If those kids are shedding the virus and getting other people sick, then what in the hell does it matter if they themselves do not get real sick? Here we are trusting a man who knocks China for not stopping the virus. In this country, we have better scientists, better medical facilities, better drug companies. If China could have managed to stop the virus, then how in the hell did we end up with over 140,000 dead? Trump has decided that it is too dangerous to hold the convention in Florida. How come, given this insight, is it safe to cram all of the children back into schools. Seems to me that we are talking about a super spreader event. If you actually took the time to do research, see what opposing sides are doing/saying and the rationale for each of those, you may actually be able to see the logic of either providing the schools with enough money to keep them safely open or allowing 100% online learning. If you are NOT willing to come up with the money to do it safely and you are arguing that they need to open, then you are part of the problem. In fact, you ARE the problem.

    3. It’s only “ridiculously hyped” because DOnald Trump, Alex Jones and freaking “Q” told religiously inclined demitards to ignore qualified people who actually understand the science of epidemiology- and who are qualified and patriotic enough to focus and offer their expertise. Those scientists and doctors thought that if they said it often and loudly enough, that even the morons could understand that masks, social distancing, testing and contract tracing would be the best way to reopen the economy. Worse, those experts were dismissed as nefarious and agenda-driven by people who simply could not be bothered, or who saw someone on Youtube they believed had a monopoly one the *real* truth: that numerology and an unwavering faith in Donald Trump somehow made more sense. The reality is they would have believed absolutely anyone who would have told them what they *insisted* on being told. The pedophiles and Illuminati and Hillary were just the corn syrup to which the morons were already addicted. How sad and pathetic it is that the USA’s top scientists, once the world’s largest repository of medical science, couldn’t convince the demitards to follow the easy-to-understand, but inconvenient protocol. Yet somehow the spastic child trolls on 4chan, Fox News, and InfoWars got through to them. Stories of pizza parlor sex dungeons and cannibal pedophiles seemed more reasonable than simple observable facts. Even now, as we watch almost every other country slow the spread by their citizens actively and patriotically working together, we choose to believe Donald Trump and Special Agent Q have a plan they’re going to reveal any minute now. Somehow the learnproof demitards are able look at the graphs, see the data, and *still* opt to put their faith the carny in the Offal Office. Without a concerted effort by everyone (or very nearly everyone) our hospitals are going to run out of capacity. They just are. And when the credulous Evangelical demitards in their MAGA caps are watching their elderly parents suffocate to death on their own bloody mucus as they wait in the hospital parking lot-cum- triage staging area for the next U-Haul to the crematorium, they will blame the epidemiologists and deep state, or Obama and Hillary, or the Rothschilds or aliens for refusing to treat them. It’s paralyzingly stupid. No, it’s beyond that. There *is* an effective plan that allows for measured reopening. Almost the entire world (many shithole countries included) has mastered the critical thinking skills to follow it. And yet the USA’s stunning ignorance, arrogance, and above all, petulance gives us the super power to look at those successes and claim they somehow aren’t; that we can’t believe our eyes and ears, or that it’s somehow a corporate conspiracy. Never mind that corporations are crippling themselves in the process. Reason can’t possibly hold a candle to what the demitards feel. We have indeed reached terminal stupidity. And it’s by selfish choice. Yay freedom.

      1. Word salad is a sign of psychosis. Get help now.

    4. Yet we scream even one child lost is an unacceptable tragedy, yet here we are talking about putting them in known danger.

      1. What known danger? As was said above, 19 deaths under the age of 14.

  2. Simple solution. Get rid of teacher’s unions.

    1. LMAO. What does that do? Oh ya another profession that will be getting bent over. Great plan.

      1. Teachers Unions take care of teachers…School Boards and politicians cover their ass…who speaks for the kids?
        …no one.

  3. Keeping schools closed would create disproportionate economic hardships for single-parent households

    It’s not anyone else’s job to indemnify you just because you chose to play at a disadvantage.

    1. What a shitty comment. Would you also call a man who lost his leg a pussy when he complains that challenging him to a footrace is unfair?

      1. Considering that he’d have to cut it off himself to make the analogy work, yes.

        1. Oh. So the kids caused the school closures. Got it

          1. No the mom caused the pregnancy.

            Come on man.

            1. Except not every single parent is the result of a woman having kids out of wedlock. There are divorcees and widows/widowers.

              And that still doesn’t address the fact that two-income families are in the same boat as single parents.

            2. Your comments would suggest you don’t know when to cut a rope that is strangling you. You aren’t incorrect in your original comment by stating that such situations exist. But the stupid or hopefully just youthful ignorance becomes evident when you can’t reflect to even understand that there are millions who do not. Of the people I know who are single parents, several lost their spouse to military service, several more to illness, and a couple including my son who lost his wife to an accident. Fortunately for him, after 5 years he found someone willing to take on raising 2 kids. I’ll just opt for giving you credit for being too young and stupid to realize you’re too young and stupid to understand.

      2. I see that Tulpa is still copying my username, like the psychotic stalker that he is. None of the comments in this thread except this one are by me.

      3. The libertarian who is consistent up to the point at which he is inconvenienced by the philosophy is a trope.

    2. People are paying taxes for their children to be educated, as well as cared for while the parents are at work. Keeping kids from school is not only counterproductive, stupid, and unscientific, it’s also a breach of the social contract.
      Also, I desperately want to post this video, which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

      1. Sigh, Kids are being educated – at least the attempt is made, via on-line learning. In our county (Montgomery County, MD) they passed out chrome books to students who didn’t have home computers, got the cable companies to provide free internet to those that didn’t have it, and all the teachers were required to schedule classes (and take attendance).
        I will admit, the pace of learning has slowed down alot.
        Some schools have literally lost track of a large percentage of kids – once the school closed, they literally have not heard from the kids or parents – I don’t know the numbers but I heard 30-40%. Now these are typically the low performing schools with high transient population (kids that move into school area and move out alot – parents moving etc.)
        So, online learning is (in my complete guesstimate) is about 50% as effective as in-school.

      2. I thought the social contract was “Hey that’s mine! Get your own”.

  4. >>Putting power into the hands of families would

    fly in the face of every plan La Left has, yo.

    1. Of course you get those parents who want to teach Creationism vs. Evolution, yeah they are pissed (and have been for about 100 years). How dare they take god out of schools!

      1. “Of course you get those parents who want to teach Creationism vs. Evolution, yeah they are pissed (and have been for about 100 years). How dare they take god out of schools!”

        From an atheist:
        It is not your job nor mine to tell parents how their children are to be educated.
        Further, some fringe fundy whining about a 5,000YO earth is a far smaller threat to humanity than some brain-washed “Greta” cranked out by government schools.

      2. And a lot of other parents who teach their kids some shit a lot of other folks disagree with as well. Maybe how socialism works if you just do it right, how the world will end in 12 years, how to be a victim. Um er, no… wait, that’s the public school system.

        See, there’s a lot of bullshit that is taught in the world. Some that you think is bullshit and is and others that isn’t. Some that I think is bullshit and is or isn’t. As Sevo implies, the only salvation for everyone being taught a certain brand of bullshit in one area or another is that there are people who are taught that it isn’t bullshit and balance the equation and debate it. There is no such thing as truth unless there’s a lie, and no such thing as a lie unless there is a truth. And no reason to actually be able to critically think if neither exist.

        Oh and yes…. none of your damn business or mine.

  5. What happened to following the science?
    Compare childhood COVID outcomes with other childhood diseases and the seasonal flu, then put on your big boy pants and open the schools.

    1. The people making the decisions these days are all short pants and pointy hat types.

    2. how does that defeat T?

      1. Using kids to feed addicts’ TDS is a new low

        1. the well has no bottom.

    3. The problem is that you don’t know who is at home with the kids.
      If the kids catch coronavirus at school and then send it home and transmit it to their elderly grandparents who live with them, what then?

      1. Then life happens. God man get a spine.

      2. If you’re so fucking afraid of the same risk of dying as normal every day driving, stop fucking eating cookies.

        1. “transmit it to their elderly grandparents who live with them, what then?”

          He’s afraid that his landlords are going to die and he’ll need to find a new basement.

          1. I’m going off of his last 2 weeks of posts. Doesnt matter how he rationalizes his personal fears.

            1. Yes he’s clearly fat and in terrible health.

            2. And that is just you being a shithead who isn’t arguing in good faith. Which is no big surprise, really.

              1. Eat a cruller fatty.

        2. If you want others to respect your free choices even if they disagree with them, then you should be respecting the free choices of others even if you disagree with them.

          1. So you retract your 100’s of whines about masks then?

            Oh no that’s different. You were totally respecting them by passive aggressively shaming them with your mask demands.

            You are so fucking pathetic.

            1. When Overt, a person who actually argues in good faith around here, told me to stop trying to convince him to wear a mask, I did so.

              I am not going to force anyone to wear a mask. I am going to try to convince you to wear a mask. If I can’t convince you, then I will respect that, just like I did with Overt. That is what it means to respect people’s free choices. That is what you could stand to do with all of coronavirus and what everyone is going through. That is likely too much for you though. Maybe you can chat about that with your therapist however.

              1. I am going to try to convince you to wear a mask.

                Respect includes respecting an individual’s desire for you to refrain from doing that.

                But go on virtue signaling.

                1. So end all debate. LOL

          2. chem…there is a logical flaw in what you are saying. Education is compelled, it is not a choice. There is no free choice here. In fact, the article correctly notes several states whose union representatives successfully lobbied their states governors to restrict free choices for parents.

      3. Yes, we must sacrifice the young to keep the old geezers alive a few more months. Maybe cut out those young beating hearts and have granny feast on the precious life essence.

        1. Funny you should mention that…

      4. Not only do kids not get it, they don’t infect others with it (because they never got it in the first place), you pussy. Grow a fucking pair of balls.

        1. Kids DO get it and can transmit it. It’s uncommon for kids to get sick enough to be hospitalized (much less than 10%), and very rare for a healthy kid to die of it (less than 0.1%). But even people with no symptoms are releasing the virus at a certain stage of the infection – symptomless transmitters are how it escapes from quarantine.

          So when we reopen the schools, some kids will take the virus home to their parents. For healthy parents under about 65, that’s no more of a problem than it is for the kids. (And I have not seen anything to convince me that there’s a significant danger to _healthy_ people of any age, rather than much higher percentages of unhealthy people above 65.) There _is_ a serious hazard to sick kids, sick adults, and possibly to relatively healthy adults over some age. So there should remain an option for parents or guardians to choose not to send their kids to school, if the kid or any other person in the home is especially vulnerable.

          But I wouldn’t worry about spreading the virus further now. The curve was flattened. We’ve learned what works (sometimes) for the severe cases, and there is no vaccine on the horizon – that will either take years, or be impossible. Pestholes like NYC are probably close to herd immunity already, and in the rest of the USA, there was never a danger of overrunning the hospitals unless obvious measures were ignored, like closing public transportation and not moving COVID cases into nursing homes with uninfected residents. It’s time to go ahead and let the rest of the healthy population become exposed, while doing what we can to protect the more vulnerable.

      5. chem…That is a big ‘if’ = If the kids catch coronavirus at school and then send it home and transmit it to their elderly grandparents who live with them

        We can’t just shut down schools and hope for the best. You know that.

      6. Then families with kids and olds living together need to make arrangements to separate them. Grandma can live in a tent in the backyard, for example.

    4. Because the science is not in! So unless you are into experimenting on kids….
      1) If you look at the trending of cases, its now the younger that are filling up the hospitals.
      2) With the states that have opened up, the infection rate _now_ exceeds the infection rate back in April (we’re No. 1!) which means our smart/safe opening is not so smart.
      3) To open schools you drive busses, clean schools, teach students, open up administrative offices, have counselors and specialist etc etc etc. all which are not kids (performed by kids).

      1. 1) If you look at the trending of cases, its now the younger that are filling up the hospitals.

        “Younger” != “kids”. You’re either arguing in bad faith or ignorant. “Kids” are not filling up hospitals.

        2) With the states that have opened up, the infection rate _now_ exceeds the infection rate back in April (we’re No. 1!) which means our smart/safe opening is not so smart.

        “Infection rate” is a completely meaningless statistic. Tell me, Captain Sciencey: How does the *death rate* now compare with April’s death rate?

        3) To open schools you drive busses, clean schools, teach students, open up administrative offices, have counselors and specialist etc etc etc. all which are not kids (performed by kids).

        Um…not sure what “performed by kids” means, but whatever. Anyway, here again you’re either arguing in bad faith or simply ignorant. The “science” (fucking stupid-ass science-believer term) says a) kids are all but immune to the disease, and b) when they do get it, they are highly unlikely to be vectors of the disease. Unlike, I dunno, colds, flu, etc., which all these teachers union flunkies have been content to deal with without complaint.

        1. The numbers are still being goosed.
          Not only are any deceased who could’ve possibly had covid being counted as covid deaths, but they’re screwing with test numbers too.
          Test positive? How many people have you been in close contact with the last 5 days? 15?
          Ok. That’s 16 new cases of covid.
          Test positive once and want to double check with another test or two?
          Each result counts as a new case.
          Then there are numerous stories of people scheduling a test but not showing up, only to get a call a few days later telling them they’ve tested positive.
          And the positive test from the papaya from Africa.

          We had a perfect case study from the beginning: the cruise ship.
          Literally worst case scenario due to environment and demographics.
          But we ignore that now so we can all freak out about unreliable numbers without context

  6. While your having a wonderful time defunding the police, why not defund the public school blob?
    Or does making parents pay for their own kids’ education make too much sense?

    1. How else are they going to indoctrinate the kids?

      1. might not need to. today’s 20-somethings are the next parents and they’re already morons.

        1. As most people age they stop being morons and become run of the mill idiots.

        2. And their kids will grow up and realize that their parents are morons and learn by negative example (what not to do).

    2. Seriously.

      If this theory of “Systemic White Supremacy” is really as serious as the activists claim; if it is truly the racist institutions of our racist country that have socialized our children to be little racists; then how can public education NOT be one of the biggest causes? It is the main source of authority and behavior modeling for 80% of this country for the first 18 years of their life.

      #DefundPublicEd

      1. Nah, they just want the SAT to have an ‘ebonics’ version with easier questions to smooth out the end results of their shitty education. Equal opportunities means equal end results, after all, which basically undermines the entire concept of education.

      2. That’s enough thinking outta you, overt!

    3. So….. if it cost $16K a year to educate one child (on average), you expect the minimum wage worker to pay for that?
      Thankfully the more rational have decided that an educated population is cheaper to maintain than an uneducated one.
      So yeah.
      Same reason I pay for roads I’ll never drive on and military that fights wars I wish they never started.
      Now why some of these roads are toll roads plus the fact that I had to pay taxes to get them built….

      1. Sixteen thousand dollars per student?
        That’s union wages for you.
        Going by the product, it sure isn’t merit pay.

  7. Teachers unions and other groups are saying that schools should stay closed unless we pour over 100 billion new federal dollars into the system.

    “OK, but of course we’ll have *many* layoffs. You understand. On the bright side, however, there seem to be jobs open for day-care assistants.”

    1. If you are making minimum wage, you cannot afford day care (let alone quality daycare) – cheaper to stay home, watch kids, and collect wellfair.

      1. How much does welfare pay? How long can they get it?

  8. The only reason this is still in the media or being discussed is because they need to keep up the momentum on negative news to impact the election. The number of deaths now is so low and at least a quarter of the deaths attributed to covid were not caused by the virus. The risk is very low. Get back to work, school, your lives, and stop listening to the far left media assholes. Tell your governors to fuck off.

    1. Death rate is not a good metric to view the pandemic, covid is leaving many people who survive with chronic heath conditions. This side effect is so new that the data is just coming in, but it does not look good.

      1. Mahindra can help you with your goalposts.

        1. It is an evolving situation. It is a new virus and we now know more then we did about it even two months ago.

          1. I don’t give a single fuck that you’re overreacting to a minor consideration by overreacting to an even more minor consideration.

            1. In other news, Tulpa is a misanthropist. Who knew!

              1. Not people, cowards.

                Like you.

                Please though, hide from the consequences of life more and pretend it’s a virtue.

                1. The people whom you label as ‘cowards’ are, get this, people. You could stand to have a bit of humility about what other people in dissimilar situations than you are going through.

                  1. Keep cowering virtuous guy.

                  2. And the people you think you are protecting are, get this, people. Which means there is a chance they will die every moment of the day. We dont cower in fear and stop society to mitigate their very small risks.

                    Plus we know based on your cries this week you’re actually scared of dying yourself. You’re just rationalizing now to pretend you’re not selfish.

                    1. And he’s fat.

                    2. We dont cower in fear and stop society to mitigate their very small risks.

                      If a trusted colleague of yours asked you to wear a mask because he was concerned about his own health, would you say “screw you I will do what I want”? Or would you be respectful of his wishes? Answer honestly now. I really doubt that you would be so defiant towards someone you trusted.

                      You only feel emboldened to be an asshole on the issue of masks because it is directed against people like me, whom you don’t even really regard as people, just a faceless blob of enemies to oppose.

                    3. Which is part of the entire problem here. People who don’t share Jesse’s politics are not just opponents, not just enemies, but they are unpersons. People who don’t matter and can be stomped on at will. That is why this current moment in politics is dangerous, not just from people on the left, but from people on the right as well. Jesse personifies that as well as anyone could.

                      Jesse would act appropriately towards people he respected and trusted. But towards people like me, who is just as much of a person as anyone that he trusts, he has no qualms about acting like a total asshole. I would not put it past Jesse to try to see me get fired from my job. This is the problem. It is less about the tactics and more about the dehumanization.

                      Jesse is a person and I will stand up for his rights. I really doubt Jesse would ever stand up for my rights.

                    4. My colleague would know better than to ask in the first place, but if he did yes I would say no.

                      Sorry. Stay home if you’re so unhealthy that a mask is the barrier between life and death.

                    5. My colleague would know better than to ask in the first place, but if he did yes I would say no.

                      Then congratulations you are proving why a purely voluntaryist approach to a pandemic cannot work.

                    6. Thank you for “respecting” my position.

                      You’re proving why authoritarians can’t be trusted.

                    7. I honestly respect people more if they say “I’m scared, and don’t mind screwing everyone else over because I’m at risk” than if they go with bullshit about “protecting others”.

                      Altruism is the refuge of the cowardly scoundrel

                    8. Nardz, so if a trusted colleague told you, “I’m scared, I am afraid for my health, please wear a mask”, would you heed your colleague’s advice?

                    9. If a trusted colleague was that afraid for their health, they’d be at home.
                      Otherwise they aren’t trustworthy.

                      Will i wear the mask in some situations?
                      Yes, it’s not the hill I’m going to die on in day to day life.
                      But I’m not going to where it correctly, and I’m going to be obvious about my disdain for it.

                      And I’m going to continue pointing out that mask-wearing is both a sign of submission to central planning and (compelled in my case, voluntary in yours) endorsement of hoax panic that has ruined tens of millions of people’s lives.

                2. Hahaha, online tough guy talking about cowards…..

          2. It is not. It is a version of SARS, and we have decades of research on it.

            1. Well, then we’ll just use the SARS vaccine!
              Oh wait, there isn’t one.
              Not a problem, we’ll just use the SARS treatment.
              Oh wait there isn’t one.
              So they are the same, except SARS mortality rate is about 10% – much more deadly. Which is actually a good thing, dead people are not transmitters.
              Yes, they are both in the same family (Corona Viruses) and as such have similar transmission patterns, but beyond that its an over simplification to say they are the same.

              1. But it turns out that exposure to the first means you can’t get the second, at least in preliminary results.

      2. ‘Chronic health condition’ is such a vague term that it’s just about meaningless. If you were ever exposed to TB, congrats you now have a chronic condition that you’ll probably never notice.

        1. There are indications that the virus is be capable of inflicting long-lasting damage to the lungs, heart and nervous system. Only time and more data will tell, but it does not look good.

          1. In a very very small minority of persons. You know what else has a small chance of causing adverse long term reactions? Aspirin. Ban aspirin!

            1. Tylenol is hepatotoxic.

              These lockdownies have no shame and keep fabricating new reasons to give them power.

          2. And I care because?

            Sorry. Life is not safe.

            1. You ought to care about the dignity and self-worth of every human being.

              1. Cool story but we’re talking about their healthcare fucko.

                1. Jeff is nothing if not cowardly and disingenuous.

              2. Hiding from minor co?? nf nokiku

                1. minor complications of life is dignified.

                  Go with that.

                  Shitting your pants over “grandma” is just the next “what about the children”

                  1. You are not living their life. You are not in their shoes. What gives you the right to decide for them what they think is the best course of action?

                    Isn’t that the essence of the libertarian world view – that individuals can decide what is best for them without an imperious government deciding for them? Well that remains true whether those individuals make decisions we agree with, or whether they make decisions that we don’t. It is up to THEM to decide, not you, and not me.

                    1. “You are not living their life. You are not in their shoes. What gives you the right to decide for them what they think is the best course of action?”

                      THEY are locking US down you fucking retard.

                    2. And you want to demand that they send their kids to school even if they feel unsafe about it because “who gives a shit about grandma”.

                      If you don’t like being forced to do things that you don’t want to do, maybe you shouldn’t be trying to force others to do things that they don’t want to do.

                    3. And you want to demand

                      Please feel free to quote where I argued that or retract your lie.

                      You ALWAYS lie about what people think. ALWAYS.

                    4. That’s cool and all, but you said clearly government will for r us to wear masks if we dont voluntarily do as you ask.

                    5. Go fuck yourself you lying fat fuck.

                      And you want to demand that they send their kids to school even if they feel unsafe about it because “who gives a shit about grandma”.

                      He is not demanding any kid to go to fucking school. He is demanding government to open their schools to the taxpayers who fund it. If a fat mom, like yourself (but we know you’re childless), doesnt want a risk she can risk her own kids future and not everyone’s.

                      God you lie so fucking much.

                    6. He is not demanding any kid to go to fucking school. He is demanding government to open their schools to the taxpayers who fund it.

                      It is the SAME DAMN THING. Under the current regime, if schools are open, kids must go. It is illegal not to.

                      Are you and Tulpa arguing for an individualized approach to education, where kids are not forced by the state to attend state-run schools, pandemic or not? Then we agree!

                      But I suspect you don’t really give a shit about issues or policies or education, just in hurling 7th grade insults and repeating right-wing talking points. Because you are a sad human being.

                    7. Are you and Tulpa arguing

                      And here is the admission that I didn’t argue what he claimed, and rather than openly say so and retract his claim, he just plods on like he didn’tckist openly lie.

                    8. So, Tulpa, why don’t you, first, use your real name and not hide behind someone else’s, and second, offer your real position on schools and coronavirus. If public schools are open, then kids must attend them, it is illegal not to. So arguing for some hypothetical state where schools are open but kids have the ability to opt out would be a new policy. Is that what you favor? If so, then you are actually closer to agreeing with me on the issue. Does it pain you to admit that?

                    9. You’ll notice he makes demands while pretending he isn’t making demands and STILL hasn’t retracted his lie.

                    10. Yeah that is what I expected from you Tulpa. My patience with you is at an end.

                    11. Any excuse to avoid admitting you lied.

                      Run away liar

                    12. Damn you’re satlyAF about getting caugh lying lolololloo!!

                      Who knew it was possible to shut you up so easily.

                  2. He already admitted his real fear is dying because he is fat. Grandma is just his new excuse to hide from being a selfish prick.

                    1. You are a lying sack of trash. I never said any such thing.

                    2. Sure fatty.

                  3. How’s this, filling up hospitals means less or no elective surgery which means no women getting boob jobs.
                    Think of the boobies

              3. Authoritarians use this excuse all the time. Maybe you can use it to force everyone to wear masks through government coercion.

                1. Wait til he’s forced to hit the treadmill to deal with the consequences of his overeating and poor health.

                2. This is a lie. I have never not once advocated for forced masks. Ever. Go retract your slanderous lie.

                  1. You first bitch.

                3. Stop being such a snow flake. Wear a mask in public even if its not the law.

      3. Citation please. At what rate do people diagnosed with COVID acquire “chronic health conditions”?

        1. Lower than the death rate.

      4. Yes, we must sacrifice the lives of the 329,999,999 for the possible decreased air capacity of the tens.

        1. Individuals don’t matter. All that matters is that the leftist narrative is defeated! Isn’t that right Jesse?

          1. No read what he wrote fucktard.

            1. “chemjeff radical individualist
              July.9.2020 at 9:09 pm
              Individuals don’t matter”

              This is the first time Jeff has been honest about himself this whole thread

              1. Well individuals certainly don’t matter to YOU, Nardz, does it?
                I, along with anyone else who disagrees with your right-wing paranoia, are just in a big blob of enemies to be opposed, right?
                Amusing that you took an obviously sarcastic response and tried to apply it to yourself.

                1. Your perspective, as shown by everything you post here, is inescapably collectivist.
                  Your views are the product of a mass, collective psychotic delusion.
                  Your life certainly doesn’t matter to me.

        2. Its not a choice between A or B.
          You seem to thinks its either total lock down or total free-for-all.
          Is it really so bad to wear a mask as you walk down a crowded street? Or are you a breathing compromised person for whom a mask just doesn’t work?

    2. Ya so next time we start hearing about sex offenders or kidnappers I’ll be responding, the risk is low so fuck off. School shooting risk is real low so no need to prepare for it. Getting hit by lightning while in a pool, or the tornado actually hitting your house/school. How many things can we list that carry low risk…

      1. There’s certainly never been a point to the preparations for school shootings that I’ve seen actually implemented. They amount to increased harassment of kids who are different (but no capability to identify the few that are actually dangerous), arrangements to keep people from walking into the school with a gun that will fail the moment someone breaks in through a different door or pulls out a gun and shoots the guard, and plans to lock the kids in the building _with_ the shooter.

  9. While I love the idea in theory of giving all families the option between public school, home school, private school, charter school and more, reality gets in the way. There are not enough private and charter schools for all the families that want them, and new ones that get founded are hit and miss. Sometimes they are good, and sometimes they are worse then the local public schools (which sometimes can be quite good). Private schools and charter schools can also be picky about why they admit, so students with disabilities are commonly left out. Many families do not have the ability to home school, and do not have the ability to pay private tuition when the vouchers are not enough. This all has the cumulative effect that rich families benefit at the expense of the lower income families. I want all students to have access to quality education, and I think the best course to achieve that is to focus on improving our public school system.

    1. So you expect that, in a market driven education economy, supply will not rise to meet demand even as regulations specifically invented to limit their spread are also rolled back?

      Curious.

      Why are you such a fan of government monopoly on education? Was it giving quality education to everyone at any point in it’s over a century long existence? If so, when? Was it during the early days of it’s existence, when it competed with private education institutions?

      1. I think the market will rise to meet demand, but as we have seen with charter schools, some of those new schools will really suck, and by the time a parent fully realizes that their kid may effectively lose a year or two of education, which really hurts. I am not a fan of government schools specifically, I just think it is the best method to achieve my goal. There are other countries with good public schools, so we know it can be done.

        1. It’s absurd since a public school can also be shitty, but only the public shitty school is insulated from the market. Instead of a ‘year or two’ of shitty education, it becomes ‘shitty k-12 education’.

          I mean, obviously.

          Charter schools can’t hurt good public schools that much, and if more money equaled better education we wouldn’t be having the conversation.

          1. And a bad charter school will go out of business if it can’t attract students. A bad public school simply goes on destroying the educations of its community forever. Black families are the strongest supporters of charter schools because they often are in bad school districts that they want to escape. So being against charter schools has a racist effect if not a racist purpose.

      2. I’ll point you to private universities. They are often equal or worse.

    2. Thank you for your thoughtful comment on the matter. Even though I don’t agree with it entirely, this is the type of comment that Reason needs more of.

      Ultimately the goal has to be an individualized approach to education. If you want to send your kid to art school, Bible school, engineering school, violin school, whatever, that should be your call. And I am fine with some type of voucher that is sent to the parents to cover the cost of that education, no strings attached. Literally none. So if the parents want to waste the money on coke and hookers while telling the state that it was for ‘homeschooling’ then it would be technically allowed. The only state involvement should be a standardized test to certify that the student has obtained enough knowledge and skills to have earned his/her highschool diploma. And in my view, the exam would be *very* high stakes because the rights and privileges of adulthood should be dependent on that diploma. Don’t have a diploma? Then you can’t be treated like an adult. Can’t vote, can’t sign contracts, can’t do anything that an adult can legally do. Without a diploma, in the eyes of the state you’re a child even if you’re 50 years old. So there would be a big incentive for parents not to waste that voucher money, but to actually prepare their kids to become a successful adult. For the kids of shitty parents out there who really do waste the voucher money and produce ignorant kids, there would be what we have now – organizations that help people obtain their GED’s.

      That does put power in the hands of the state to decide what ought to be on the high-stakes exam. But that is so much less power than what they currently have now, in forcing kids to go to schools chosen by the state, with teachers chosen by the state, and a curriculum chosen by the state, for 12+ years of their life, that I see it as a net win.

      It would take some time to move towards that type of vision for education however, and we can’t do that in the course of just a few months even if there was some broad agreement to adopt this type of model.

      In the meantime I think it is an opportunity to support this individualized approach to education. If the schools in a district are closed, because they are genuinely fearful of COVID, then perhaps some of that money that would otherwise be used to pay to keep the school open can be devoted to a pilot-type program where parents can receive some type of compensation for home schooling or group classes of some type organized by parents. That would be an interesting experiment to see.

      1. Or cooking school for you.

        1. Why do you want to burn down a cooking school?

          1. doubt he even makes it to the oven before the food disappears.

            1. “I ate the butter again” – chemheif

        2. What are you even talking about now, Jesse?

          1. You’re fat.

            1. So fucking what?

              You really haven’t mentally progressed from the 7th grade, have you?

              You are the problem here, Jesse.

              1. So what?

                So you’re arguing from self interest and pretending it’s something else you fat fuck.

                You don’t give a fuck about grandma except as a chess piece, you care about YOU.

                Fatty.

                1. Well, you *certainly* don’t give a fuck about grandma. That much is clear.

                  You all have invented this entire rationale for why I favor *recommended* (not required) mask usage. It is out of courtesy and respect for others. It is no different than opening a door for someone with full hands, or offering an umbrella for someone caught in a rainstorm. That is and has always been the “real reason”.

                  1. I made a rational comsderation and her concerns are unfounded. Lofe carries risks.

                    Crying “what about the children grandma won’t change that.

                    Meanwhile you want the world to insure you against your own bad choices, but pretend it is altruism.

                    How fucking gross.

                    1. You have zero right to decide for anyone else what their level of risk tolerance “ought to be”. Zero.

                    2. You want your risk to be zero? Fine, stay at home and starve to death. You have zero right to force me to accept a similar fate. Zero.

                    3. You want your risk to be zero? Fine, stay at home and starve to death. You have zero right to force me to accept a similar fate. Zero.

                      I have never argued for FORCING anyone to wear masks.

                      All I am asking is that you recognize that your risk tolerance is different than the risk tolerance of others. That’s all.

                      If your response to a polite request to wear a mask is,
                      “Not only will I not wear a mask, but I will belittle your attempts to politely request to be safe from a pandemic and subject you to my maybe-virus-free aerosols” then that is the problem here.

                      But if your response is, “I don’t understand, could you explain why I ought to consider your request” and have a dialogue on the subject, based on mutual respect for each other, then that is a far better idea.

                      Maybe your colleague convinces you that he really does have a legitimate concern.

                      Maybe you convince your colleague that his fears are overblown.

                      That’s all fine.

                      But that conversation needs to happen first before that conclusion can be drawn.

                    4. Right but you’re a liar who lies and then makes excuses rather than admitting it and then plods away like a fat coward

                    5. “Right but”

                      lol

                    6. Hey I actually shut you up !

                      /miracles

                    7. Jeff’s entire focus is what other people *should* do, but everyone else is the tyrant…

          2. How fat and dumb you are, which you proved by not getting it.

        3. Oh, and let it be known that Jesse’s entirely flippant response to my very thoughtful comment was because he had nothing of substance to respond to my comment. All he could do is offer some sophomoric 7th-grade level insult. For all the times when he accuses me of “not being a libertarian” (even though he is just a Republican sycophant himself), when I do present an idea that genuinely affirms liberty, Jesse can offer nothing but personal mockery. That should speak volumes.

          1. Eat more cheese fatty.

      2. So, you want people who haven’t been sufficiently indoctrinated to lose suffrage? Nice. What about all the POC in a shitty public education environment like NYC? Do you realize how many students of color will be disenfranchised? You must be a racist.

        1. There ought to be some minimal standard before full rights of adulthood are bestowed.

          AT A MINIMUM, students ought to understand what it means to be a full participating adult in modern society. What it means when they sign their name to a loan document.

          I am totally open to having a conversation about what those standards ought to be. But it can’t be “nothing at all”.

          Which is more “indoctrinating”: preparing for one exam, or going to state-run schools of 12+ years of your life? I am not saying mine is a perfect solution, but it is better than the status quo.

          1. We get it youre a coward fatty.

          2. All men who can pass our arbitrary test are created equal.

            Remember poll taxes and tests? Remember why they are illegal?

          3. And then we can put them all on basic and restrict their ability to procreate and work? Right?

          4. Thought-provoking if nothing else, here’s an excerpt from

            https://www.ishmael.org/daniel-quinn/essays/schooling-the-hidden-agenda/

            It occurred to me at this time to ask this question: Instead of spending two or three years teaching children things they will inevitably learn anyway, why not teach them some things they will not inevitably learn and that they would actually enjoy learning at this age? How to navigate by the stars, for example. How to tan a hide. How to distinguish edible foods from inedible foods. How to build a shelter from scratch. How to make tools from scratch. How to make a canoe. How to track animals–all the forgotten but still valuable skills that our civilization is actually built on.

            Of course I didn’t have to vocalize this idea to anyone to know how it would be received. Being thoroughly acculturated, I could myself explain why it was totally inane. The way we live is the way humans were meant to live from the beginning of time, and our children were being prepared to enter that life. Those who came before us were savages, little more than brutes. Those who continue to live the way our ancestors lived are savages, little more than brutes. The world is well rid of them, and we’re well rid of every vestige of them, including their ludicrously primitive skills.

            Our children were being prepared in school to step boldly into the only fully human life that had ever existed on this planet. The skills they were acquiring in school would bring them not only success but deep personal fulfillment on every level. What did it matter if they never did more than work in some mind-numbing factory job? They could parse a sentence! They could explain to you the difference between a Petrarchan sonnet and a Shakespearean sonnet! They could extract a square root! They could show you why the square of the two sides of a right triangle were equal to the square of the hypotenuse! They could analyze a poem! They could explain to you how a bill passes congress! They could very possibly trace for you the economic causes of the Civil War. They had read Melville and Shakespeare, so why would they not now read Dostoevsky and Racine, Joyce and Beckett, Faulkner and O’Neill? But above all else, of course, the citizen’s education–grades K to twelve–prepared children to be fully-functioning participants in this great civilization of ours. The day after their graduation exercises, they were ready to stride confidently toward any goal they might set themselves.

            Of course, then, as now, everyone knew that the citizen’s education was doing no such thing. It was perceived then–as now–that there was something strangely wrong with the schools. They were failing–and failing miserably–at delivering on these enticing promises. Ah well, teachers weren’t being paid enough, so what could you expect? We raised teachers’ salaries–again and again and again–and still the schools failed. Well, what could you expect? The schools were physically decrepit, lightless, and uninspiring. We built new ones–tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of them–and still the schools failed. Well, what could you expect? The curriculum was antiquated and irrelevant. We modernized the curriculum, did our damnedest to make it relevant–and still the schools failed. Every week–then as now–you could read about some bright new idea that would surely “fix” whatever was wrong with our schools: the open classroom, team teaching, back to basics, more homework, less homework, no homework–I couldn’t begin to enumerate them all. Hundreds of these bright ideas were implemented–thousands of them were implemented–and still the schools failed.

            Granted that the schools do a poor job of preparing children for a successful and fulfilling life in our civilization, but what things do they do excellently well? Well, to begin with, they do a superb job of keeping young people out of the job market. Instead of becoming wage-earners at age twelve or fourteen, they remain consumers only–and they consume billions of dollars worth of merchandise, using money that their parents earn. Just imagine what would happen to our economy if overnight the high schools closed their doors. Instead of having fifty million active consumers out there, we would suddenly have fifty million unemployed youth. It would be nothing short of an economic catastrophe.

      3. Chem….nice ideas in theory. The problem will be the high stakes testing. Who decides what is to be tested? And to define proficiency? Because if you tell me, ‘Oh, just use Common Core as the testing and evaluation framework’, then I completely reject it.

        1. I would actually like to see testing required for votes to count.
          Just real basic questions:
          – who is the current office holder?
          – how long is the term?
          – what branch of government does the office occupy?

          So, for president, it would be:
          – Trump
          – 4 years
          – executive

          For US senate in GA:
          – Perdue, Loeffler
          – 6 years
          – legislative

          Real minimum stuff anybody can look up the answer to in 60 seconds there

      4. So if you have an irresponsible parent as a child you are FUCKED.

  10. The solution is simple, all schooling should be private. The function of government is to defend liberty not education.

    1. But where is everyone gonna park their brat while they go to work?

      1. My father took me to work with him. The best education I ever got in K-12. Learned to work on cars which later became my career for a while. What “career” option does public education provide? Riot against the sky is falling? Riot against slavery (long past)? Riot against mining? It’s indoctrination; not education. Granite; they use to teach you how to balance a check book but what good is that gonna do when one has no career? Obviously they even failed at that with the massive debt American’s take on. Oh and there’s Band? No wonder K-12 students all think they’re rock stars – it’s the only skill they ever learned.

    2. Some think that liberty is more valuable when you are not forced to exist at the mercy of whether your parents have any money or not.

      1. Some have the decency to realize that taking what no-one has earned is called stealing; no matter how many thousands of pathetic excuses can be made for the theft.

        Only lefties think theft is liberty and remain steadfast in their complete ignorance that a society based on theft is bound to fail since it leaves zero motivation for anyone to create anything.

  11. Commie Education/Indoctrination facilities *For Sale*.. That’s the best plan yet!

  12. Can we at least approach this entire issue with a little bit of humility? Just a little bit?

    There are people out there who are genuinely concerned about coronavirus. I don’t know if their fears are legitimate or not. And frankly neither do any of you. It is not any of our place to say. They are individuals living their own lives with their own unique lived experiences that none of us have experienced. We have not walked in their shoes and we cannot know what their own concerns are. If they say they are legitimately concerned then I take their concern at face value. Because I have no reason not to.

    To that end, the state should approach the situation with as much of an individualized response as possible. If individuals don’t feel safe going to school, don’t make them go, and provide some sort of alternative accommodation. If individuals do feel safe going to school, then permit them to.

    1. So let them decide to stay home. That is liberty. Not forcing the rest of us to stay home. This is why you dont understand liberty.

      1. Under the current regime, staying home would be illegal. Surely you knew that and all.

        Furthermore, part of taking a more humble approach to this entire situation is to have a little bit of respect of the unique situations of others.

        1. “If someone doesn’t feel safe going to school, no one should be allowed to go to school”

          Fuck off, commie

        2. Well said, “have a little bit of respect of the unique situations of others”… All individuals have unique situations and thus should be *allowed* to address their own situation instead of letting the State dictate an entire collective.

          If the State wants ‘knowledge’ standards they should legislate a knowledge standards test — not setup mandatory labor camps (i.e. public schools) and dictate the curriculum, slave hours, hiring procedures, etc.. etc.. etc.. Teachers cry about 30K/yr earnings. If a teacher taught in his/her home 30-children that would be $83/mo cost. There is no excuse to have an entire bureaucracy in education making it wildly expensive.

        3. If they have the power to arbitrarily shut down the system entirely, then surely they have the power to either strike truancy laws off the books or at the very least, choose to temporarily stop enforcing them during the period people feel “unsafe”.

          I’m so sick of everyone on the pants shitting side thinking speaking like the most extreme, liberty trampling option is the only option. You’re really not thinking very hard at all.

    2. Ok….but Chem, what do you do about the problem of teachers unions lobbying the states (successfully in some cases) to take away home-schooling choices? If you want individualization, you need to state upfront that teachers unions interfering in individualized choices needs to be stopped.

      1. You elect politicians with a proven record ( if one can be found ) of not giving in to the lobbing slavers.

        1. End collective bargaining with government

    3. If those people’s concerns are based on investigation and thoughtful consideration of their findings, I’d respect those.

      But, the great mass of people are more like a herd of cattle, stampeding toward a cliff, with the MSM behind them, firing “massive increase in cases”, “new spike in cases”, and “record number of new cases” over their heads. Those are not the thoughtful, and I’m not going to go quietly over that cliff.

      Citing contrary data in a rational manner isn’t going to deflect that herd, so I’m going to yell, “Turn, you fucking idiots.”

  13. Teachers unions and other groups are saying that schools should stay closed unless we pour over 100 billion new federal dollars into the system.

    These people are grifters, plain and simple. They are already overpaid for the service they provide.

  14. The American K-12 public school system is:
    A) Day care for children of single parents or mommies too busy at the club.
    B) A massive employment program for college grads who would have flunked out of STEM majors or even business.
    C) A system to enable teacher unions to fund political campaigns for officials who will approve inflated teacher salaries and impossible pension plans.
    D) All of the above.

    1. ^^^ THIS

      1. Don’t forget
        (E) A system that encourages incompetency by making it a ‘career’ path funded entirely by theft. When you grow up you can get paid by the State to ___________ because people wouldn’t ever willingly pay for your incompetency.

    2. D

    3. Looks like someone didn’t get all he could out of grammar and arithmetic lessons. I suppose you acquired a primary education the way Ayn Rand intended: without so much as a road to take you to school.

      1. Hey Tony: don’t you live on Indian land now?

  15. Don’t force parents to pay for school via taxes, at all.
    Students do better when their parents care. Parents care more when they are paying the bills direcftly.

    1. This is precisely how the issue gets off-track

      Fact is – school infrastructure doesn’t mainly benefit students (or indirectly then parents). It benefits nearby homeowners – whether they have kids or not. Everyone on the planet understands this. Neighborhoods with good schools nearby have higher home prices. THAT is how that infrastructure should be paid for – and that is also the group that best holds school boards accountable for infrastructure that works well v infrastructure that is excessive (eg Olympic size pools at every elementary school). That would also tend to create pressure to use the existing infrastructure more effectively – eg use the elementary school facility in the evening to offer adult education or community gatherings or somesuch that more clearly benefits the broader community and not just parents of elementary kids.

      Kids benefit from what is taught inside the classroom. Financially, the textbooks, materials, some portion of teacher pay. THAT is what should be transitioned more to ‘choice’ and parent (or endowment) paid. But even a cursory thought indicates that it becomes more ‘charter classrooms’ NOT ‘charter schools’. Once school facilities themselves can offer parents/kids a choice of Montessori v college prep v creationism v etc all within the same facility, then it undermines the entire ‘school board controls the curriculum and that’s that’ mindset. All they control is the leasing of that classroom space for whatever time period.

      Students do better when their parents care. Parents care more when they are paying the bills direcftly.

      This is just right-wing nonsense. First children aren’t parental property. Second, attaching infrastructure costs to individual education costs merely means that poorer parents can’t afford to pay that bill. It doesn’t mean they don’t care. It just means you support a rentier economy.

      1. “This is precisely how the issue gets off-track”

        Why citizens should and should not be taxed is getting off track?

        Fuck off slaver.

      2. Right wing nonsense? Not taxing people to pay for other people’s stuff is a pretty standard libertarian position.

        And lots of people care about educating the children of poor families. They are free to donate to scholarships for the needy, or to fund charitable or religious schools. It used to be quite common.

        Vouchers to families to choose which school to go to would be an improvement over taxing everyone, but it still forces people to pay for other peoples’ stuff.

        1. Not taxing people to pay for other people’s stuff is a pretty standard libertarian position.

          How about jiggering the costs so that poor people or parents pay for value that gets added to the value of nearby land? Is that ‘libertarian’?

          Are you seriously asserting that nearby school infrastructure has NO value to nearby homeowners? That home prices are ceteris parabis the same in crappy school areas as in good school areas? Because by stating that current parents should pay the entire cost – fixed and variable – you are saying that nearby homeowners should get that longer-term rentier benefit for free.

          1. What’s this “rentier benefit” you speak of… Are you trying to concrete some delusion that everyone is but a “renter” of Uncle Sam’s property or what?

            The given assumption that all children/parents are but too-dumb and too incompetent to make their own way while asserting that criminal theft is their only hope generally falls right on top of itself. How about some reality here — 99% of the time criminals stay criminals and dedicated brilliance becomes successful so long as the criminals don’t steal them blind first.

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  17. Link because I want to post it: Elvis is Everywhere

      1. As things stand right now, I could be tempted to vote for Elvis.

        Zombie Elvis/Zombie Milton Friedman 2020!

        How much worse could it be?

      2. “Soon all will become Elvis”

        2021 can’t come fast enough

  18. “And if public schools can’t reopen, or aren’t equipped to provide adequate education online, families shouldn’t be forced to pay for them”

    OK. So how much does the average family pay (directly, not in property taxes)?

    1. lol… “So how much does the average family pay?” …. but don’t give me any examples involving cash….. lol… 🙂

      Well, if your mommy is being pimped out by the history teacher does that count as “pay”?

  19. “We should fund students instead of systems.”

    Fuck off!
    Every teachers’ union, always.

  20. “Don’t Force Schools to Reopen”

    Sounds eminently libertarian. So exactly how are they ‘forcing’ this? Oh, by denying funds to schools that stay closed.

    That’s not force.

    1. To be clear. IF we are going to tax people in order to pay for education then we should fund education though parent/student controlled vouchers.

      But not paying schools when they are not doing what we pay them for is a good thing. Forgoing that good in the hope that we can one day get to a system of vouchers is not remotely a libertarian approach.

      It’s pie in the sky. Or bog standard proggyism dressed up in libertarian duds.

    2. Boycotting is forcing.

      Why the fuck else would they do it.

      It started WW2 for Christ sakes.

      1. Can’t. Tell. If. Sarcasm.

        1. Sarcasm is seldom my initial post.

          Seriously, when imports and exports are required for survival, boycotts are force as was the case in 1933.

  21. They need to admit elementary schooling is just babysitting, which may be had much more cheaply than teaching.

  22. Who the fuck thinks schools should reopen while the pandemic rages out of control putting the lives of US citizens in peril?

    I suggest that Trumps actions during this pandemic are more impeachable and worthy of removal from office than anything else he’s done.

    That might be the best chance Republicans have for this election.

    1. Yeah, it’s fucking “raging”—only 99.85% will survive if infected.

      Did you know that Blacks are dying disproportionately? At least that should make you happy.

      1. You can’t even calculate a simple percentage.

        Today in the US there are 3 million confirmed cases with 132000 confirmed deaths.

        That’s a 4.4% death rate dipshit.

        1. Except that confirmed cases vs estimated number of infected could easily be a factor of 10. 132k / 23M would be fatality rate of about 0.5%, or 99.5% survival rate.

          “Officials estimate over 6% of US population are infected. Over 20 million people may have been infected with the coronavirus…”

          “Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CNBC he believes there continues to be a significant number of unreported coronavirus cases in the U.S.
          He suggested as many as 1 in 150 people in the country could be infected. We must have well over 700,000 infections a day, even though we’re only diagnosing about 60,000,” Gottlieb said on “Squawk Box.”

          “Robert Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), said on June 25 that the real number of Americans who’ve gotten the coronavirus is probably 10 times higher than the agency’s official count. “Our best estimate right now is that for every case that’s reported, there actually are 10 other infections,” he said. By that day, the US had recorded 2.3 million cases. Redfield’s assessment would make the true number 23 million.

          “MIT researchers, similarly, calculated that by June 18, around 17.5 million people in the US had gotten COVID-19 — around eight times the official number on that date. And a study published in the journal Science found that the US probably saw around 8.7 million coronavirus cases in the last three weeks of March alone, though only 100,000 were officially counted during that time.

          1. Are we in the habit of ignoring something that kills hundreds of thousands of Americans? And then leaving it unchecked to kill untold numbers more? Hundreds of thousands dead. Ain’t no big thing.

            How may trans people have committed murder in this time period, I wonder.

            1. Actually, yes, we are

            2. I haven’t heard anyone suggest ignoring it.

          2. It’s logical to assume that there are unreported cases.

            And it’s also logical to assume that there are unreported deaths.

            The deaths lag the cases by a couple of weeks.

            How many people are dying from other causes because the medical community is overwhelmed with Covid?

            The US is the worlds laughing stock for its disjointed and ineffective pandemic response.

            1. “It’s logical to assume that there are unreported cases.”

              Agreed.

              “And it’s also logical to assume that there are unreported deaths.”

              OK, but not nearly as many, percentagewise. You can have a case without symptoms; it’s harder for it to be the actual cause of death without symptoms.

              1. We’re not even talking about long term damage that leads to reduced quality of life and death.

                1. Because we’re talking about schools and such complications are extremely rare among children.

            2. It’s logical to assume that there are unreported cases.

              It is a certainty that the vast majority of infections are unreported.

              And it’s also logical to assume that there are unreported deaths.

              We know that deaths are being grossly overreported.

              How many people are dying from other causes because the medical community is overwhelmed with Covid?

              It’s not overwhelmed with COVID. However, many will die because the medical care system was virtually shut down for months because of a predicted “wave” that never happened.

              The US is the worlds laughing stock…

              And yet, they envy us so that they still risk their lives by the millions to get here.

              1. Who is they? Millions more than that are fine not trying to come here,

        2. Today in the US there are 3 million confirmed cases with 132000 confirmed deaths.

          “Confirmed cases” is a meaningless number for this purpose. The total number of infections is unknown, but is certainly many, many times higher than the “confirmed cases”.

          The “confirmed deaths” includes people who died WITH COVID but not FROM COVID, as well as people merely PRESUMED to have died with COVID, so the number of deaths is certainly inflated. Your “calculation” is garbage in, garbage out.

          You obviously know nothing about this. Stop embarrassing yourself.

  23. My experience this spring was my kids never could get adequate responses from their teachers in a timely manner. Parents were not told what was due, until after the fact (I tried to look at what was due when on the Google classroom and even I was confused as to what was mandatory and what was voluntary), some teachers assigned only one or two assignments, with vague due dates and then based their entire trimesters letter grades off those two assignments. Most of the the work was makeshift and review. Almost no new material was introduced. Overall if I was paying voluntarily for these services I would demand my money back. But because it is involuntary taxes, I have little recourse. We don’t know if schools will reopen, if sports will be allowed (my kids all enjoy playing sports) or anything at this point. It is extremely frustrating as it makes it impossible to plan.

  24. Fuck that. Force the schools to open. They’ve already been paid for this year.

  25. You are all missing the point. Sure we need to open the brick and mortar schools. but to do it properly, we need a plan. Currently, all the school faculties across America have been told to take Summer off, and that it will all be fine when they come back in August. Since there is no real plan, and won’t be in August, the teachers know it will not be fine, hence all the current bitching. I am lucky to work for an online charter school, so I have it easy and we already have a good plan, but I know people in the regular system and they are worried. A no brainer would be to test all the teachers in the beginning of the year and test them periodically. Enforce whatever rules the school pushes, despite the inevitable pushback from families when their pride and joy gets sent to the office for sneezing or spitting on his classmates. What are these schools going to do when students ignore their mask orders en-masse? The schools should also track known virus exposures and inform families, while keeping student info confidential, maybe even do some contact tracing. None of that will happen. Plus, the schools are by and large managed by shameless sycophants who care more about how they look than what they accomplish. Many of you are bitching about the incompetence of a system you have experienced, but never worked in. I am telling all of you, the fish rots from the head. And since you all seem to agree that public school in America is routinely a shit show, what makes you think it’s going to get better this Fall?

    Other countries have been successful in restarting schools because they have implemented measures, like the ones I detailed, that America will not follow in Fall, with schools that are competently run. America will not follow any sensible plan and has many schools that have been failing prior to the Pandemic. It also has the highest active Covid rate in the world among first world nations, so this is an added hurdle to the mix. I wish them luck, but this is probably going to blow up and end in nationwide shutdowns by November at the latest.

    1. We need kids and their families to live without debilitating lung damage more than we need schools to open.

      1. We need kids to grow up without debilitating ignorance, illiteracy, and social isolation. The “mitigation” we’re suffering is causing much more harm than good.

    2. Baseball players will be tested every day or every other…but not teachers or kids. That’s our society in a nutshell.

  26. My sister-in-law is a teacher. I spoke to her a few weeks ago and she was telling me how stupid their back-to-school plan will be in her district. School will consist of students being in class for 2 days per week. Half the kids will be come to school on Monday and Thursday. The other half will come on Tuesday and Friday. On weekends and Wednesdays, the school will be disinfected.

    I said “that’s stupid! If you’re concerned enough to disinfect the schools twice weekly, why not put group A in classes on Monday and Tuesday, then disinfect, then have Group B come in on Thursday and Friday. That way groups B is not always sitting in Group A’s germs.”

    Not sure if anybody changed that system yet.

    1. Also, disinfecting on weekends is almost worthless. The viruses there are Friday are pretty much going to be dead by Monday even if you do nothing.

  27. Never miss an opportunity to shill for the charter school lobby.

    1. Never miss an opportunity to shill for teacher’s unions.

      1. Fucking right, unions protect workers and pay. Can we have any well-paying careers?

  28. When you say, “Don’t Force Families To Pay for Closed Schools’, are you saying don’t force people to pay school taxes? Because it’s not just the students, it’s all the taxpayer footing the bill. Or does this article only apply to people who pay for private schools? This article makes little sense since most children attend public schools. I have no idea what you’re proposing here.

    1. Yeah I’m not sure what the article is proposing either.

      It costs a lot of money to run physical schools, even if they’re already in place. Heat, cooling, buses, maintenance, janitors, trash removal, etc… I’m waiting for my county property taxes to go down as a result of COVID-19.

      That of course won’t happen. What could happen (but probably won’t) is that the teachers all get a bump in salary. If that were to happen, the next natural step would be to demand a tax increase when shutdowns ended, because now there’s no money to pay for all that maintenance.

      (The teacher bump won’t happen, of course, because the administrators will suck it up first.)

      Another suggestion: Get rid of the bloated central bureaucracy known as the Dept of Education. I did the numbers a couple years ago; if you dole out its ~$80B annual budget, it meant that every teacher out there could potentially have a $20,000 per year increase. (And of course that would never happen either.)

  29. Living in Highly-Taxed Jersey (without any children) I would love to see the end of modern day public schools. Privatize and give me back tax money I’m forced to flush down the toilet. I know….pipe dreams…keep smoking. I’m not getting jack for my taxes except some dickhead giving out speeding tickets. And with the virus albeit not a lot of that is funding local gubment. Well here comes a Covid tax to supplant their lost income. ‘Nuff said.

    1. Not having a lawn full of begging illiterate children is a service you’re paying for.

  30. Why? So kids can grow up to be smart like Trump?

    1. So they don’t grow up utterly ignorant and sociopathic like you.

  31. (1) “$116 billion… about twice the total amount the federal government allocated towards K-12 education in the most recent school year. It’s also close to the amount the U.S. dedicated to the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after World War II.” Also about 1/17th the $2Trillion Congress has already passed and 1/25th the House’s $3Trillion bid.
    (2) How would the private schools accommodate the enrollment surge? Have to hire new faculty; expand their internet capacity.

  32. There are child-free families of two who pay for schooling but never us it. Taxpayers who pay for schools but never use them include those who send their kids to private and parochial schools and who have no minor children, as well as those who homeschool..

    This is scandalous, particularly since we all now know that those schools primarily serve to babysit for breeders who want to work while they are enjoying the questionable pleasures of parenthood. Why do we indulge this selfish behavior?

    In a just world, child-free taxpayers would be exempt from taxes to support kids, just as breeders are exempt from taxes to support the travel and other hobbies of the child-free. Coronavirus is appearing to serve as the long-awaited revenge of the child-free, forcing the breeders as well as the overpaid babysitters masquerading as certified teachers to bear more of the burden of babysitting masquerading as education.

    1. Civilization requires the continuum of life.

      If you want the benefits of civilization, you have to pay for it, even if you want to opt out of life.

    2. You’re not paying for some kid to get educated, you’re paying for kids to be educated in general. You’ll think it’s a good idea once you sit and think about how your neighborhood would be if it were infested with feral illiterate children.

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  34. Actually, yes. We DO care about children. There is a problem. The tRump administration expects us to keep the kids safe without giving us the resources. If you have a classroom that has enough space to house 15 socially distanced children but used to house 25 children, WHAT are you going to do about those extra children. We can use labs, cafeterias, etc. to space them out, but where is the extra staff supposed to come from? Who is going to pay that? Maybe SOME schools get $15K plus per year for each student, but I can tell you that it is not every school. For those uninformed people among you who think that all the unions do is protect teachers, you obviously do NOT know what a teacher’s life is like. Contrary to popular opinion, we DO care about kids. That is why most of us work long hours beyond the school day with lesson plans, grading, providing tutoring services to our kids. Our unions have fought for additional teaching assistants because the special education students, the students with disabilities, the English Language Learners all need additional support. We buy supplies out of our own pocket every year so that students can have the minimum that they need for an education. We buy coats, hats, gloves, and even basic clothing for our kids. No one repays that money. We work to get parents connected with the social services that they need. We buy lunch for students who do not have money to pay for it. In essence, we DO give a fuck. There are a lot of students who rely on their grandparents for care. Those caregivers are part of a vulnerable population. A little over 8% if our students have asthma. Those children are at increased risk. Children ages 9-18 are in the age group most likely to transmit the virus. If those kids are shedding the virus and getting other people sick, then what in the hell does it matter if they themselves do not get real sick? Here we are trusting a man who knocks China for not stopping the virus. In this country, we have better scientists, better medical facilities, better drug companies. If China could have managed to stop the virus, then how in the hell did we end up with over 140,000 dead? Trump has decided that it is too dangerous to hold the convention in Florida. How come, given this insight, is it safe to cram all of the children back into schools. Seems to me that we are talking about a super spreader event. If you actually took the time to do research, see what opposing sides are doing/saying and the rationale for each of those, you may actually be able to see the logic of either providing the schools with enough money to keep them safely open or allowing 100% online learning. If you are NOT willing to come up with the money to do it safely and you are arguing that they need to open, then you are part of the problem. In fact, you ARE the problem. By the way, if you want schools to reopen quicker, wear a fucking mask.

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  37. If schools are closed teachers need to be furloughed without pay just like every other business that was forced to close. The money can then go to families in the form of vouchers to choose the alternative, an open school, a tutor, on line options as appropriate.

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