Coronavirus

How Government Red Tape Stymied Testing and Made the Coronavirus Epidemic Worse

FDA and CDC bureaucrats stopped private and academic diagnostic tests from being deployed.

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The United States is home to the most innovative biotech companies and university research laboratories in the world. That fact should have given our country a huge advantage with respect to detecting and monitoring emerging cases of COVID-19 caused by the new coronavirus outbreak.

Instead, as The New York Times reports in a terrific new article, officials at the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) stymied private and academic development of diagnostic tests that might have provided an early warning and a head start on controlling the epidemic that is now spreading across the country.

As the Times reports, Seattle infectious disease expert Dr. Helen Chu had, by January, collected a huge number of nasal swabs from local residents who were experiencing symptoms as part of a research project on flu. She proposed, to federal and state officials, testing those samples for coronavirus infections. As the Times reports, the CDC told Chu and her team that they could not test the samples unless their laboratory test was approved by the FDA. The FDA refused to approve Chu's test on the grounds that her lab, according to the Times, "was not certified as a clinical laboratory under regulations established by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, a process that could take months."

In the meantime, the CDC required that public health officials could only use the diagnostic test designed by the agency. That test released on February 5 turned out to be badly flawed. The CDC's insistence on a top-down centralized testing regime greatly slowed down the process of disease detection as the infection rate was accelerating.

A frustrated Chu and her colleagues began testing on February 25 without government approval. They almost immediately detected a coronavirus infection in a local teenager with no recent travel history. Chu warned local public health officials of her lab's finding and the teenager's school was closed as a precaution. The teen's diagnosis strongly suggested that the disease had been circulating throughout the western part of Washington for weeks. We now know that that is likely true.

Did the FDA and CDC functionaries commend Chu for being proactive? Not at all. Washington state epidemiologist Scott Lindquist recalled, "What they said on that phone call very clearly was cease and desist to Helen Chu. Stop testing." On February 29, the FDA finally agreed to unleash America's vibrant biotech companies and academic labs by allowing them to develop and deploy new tests for the coronavirus that causes COVID-19.

The Times notes:

The Seattle Flu Study illustrates how existing regulations and red tape—sometimes designed to protect privacy and health—have impeded the rapid rollout of testing nationally, while other countries ramped up much earlier and faster. Faced with a public health emergency on a scale potentially not seen in a century, the United States has not responded nimbly.

Due to red tape, the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. will be worse than it should have been.

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  1. Fox News’ coronavirus coverage stands in stark contrast to its coverage of Ebola in 2014

    In the run-up to the 2014 midterm elections, cable news outlets — and Fox News in particular — fearmongered over an Ebola outbreak in Africa, before suddenly dropping the story after the votes were counted.

    https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/fox-news-coronavirus-coverage-stands-stark-contrast-its-coverage-ebola-2014

    1. Wow, I didn’t realize Media Matters was still around. Thought they ran into bankruptcy issues.

      1. Thought they ran into bankruptcy issues.

        Soros’ pockets are very deep.

        1. Hey let’s not just pick on Soros. The entire process has billionaires on all sides, we have a billionaire president for Christ-sake, and a racist billionaire friend of his just tried to buy his way into being the leader of the entire democratic party. The process give us freedom only because of billionaire in-fighting

    2. Fox News is no different than any major news outlet. They are just on one side. CNN and MSNBC do the exact same thing just in the other direction, and so do ABC, CBS, and NBC, to a slightly lesser degree.

      1. Obviously, you never watch CNN, which has at least one Republican on every panel.

        Where was Obama born?

        1. You’re going to die, hihn

        2. FNC always has at least one Democrat too, so what is your point, other than the top of your head?

          1. (yawn)

            1. Fuck off and die, Hihn.

              1. Fuck off and die, Hihn.

                Make me. *sneer*

                You can’t!

                You’ve now FAILED for over two years of stalking and unprovoked assaults. *smirk*

                (yawn)

                1. Unless we accept the premises that a) responding to any of your thousands of idiotic comments does not meet any common definition of “stalking”, and b) a negative response to said idiotic comments cannot be considered “unprovoked”.

                  So…wrong. Again.

                  1. THIS stupid!

                    Unless we accept the premises that a) responding to any of your thousands of idiotic comments does not meet any common definition of “stalking”,

                    TRUE!
                    BUT STALKING DOES INCLUDE FOLLOWING ME DOWN THE PAGE … SPEWING PURELY PERSONAL INSULTS … BY A FUCKING THUG

                    Fuck off and die, Hihn.

                    FOR OVER TWO YEARS (SEVO)
                    OR JUST TODAY (YOU)

                    *** HOW STUPID IS THE PROUD TROLLER

                    ***CLAIMS PERSONAL INSULTS ARE A JUSTIFIED RESPONSE TO …. ***VIEWPOINTS HE DISAGREES WITH***
                    BWAAAAA HAAAAA

                    and b) a negative response to said idiotic comments cannot be considered “unprovoked”.

                    WIPE THE EGG OFF YOUR PUSS, STALKER. (sneer)

                    (Posted in self-defense of an unprovoked verbal assault … by a stalker … humiliating himself)

                    1. Come on Hihn, break out the ass-rape threats.

                      If you’re gonna go, go Full Hihn everytime.

                    2. (Posted in self-defense of yet another unprovoked assault, by a sexually-perverted stalker)

                      If you’re gonna go, go Full Hihn everytime

                      That was SELF-DEFENSE! (smirk)

                      Freddy’s obsession with butt-sex is hysterical … but typical of the alt-right thugs here.

                      How else could anyone assume that, “I will jam the facts up your ass” is SEXUAL. Yes, THAT dumb!!!

                      P.S. I just jammed your goober lunacy up YOUR ass. (sneer)

                      P.P.S. Freddy is a stalker too, though not near as crazed as Sevo … so a stalker, launching an unprovoked verbal ass-ault … in response to A POST ON STALKING AND UNPROVOKED ASSAULTS … well … that’s the intelligence of his gang of authoritarian Gomers. Was the precious snowflake triggered?

                      (Walks away laughing)

        3. Hawaii but his father was a foriegner so he’s probably not a natural born citizen.

          1. PROOF! Trump suckered Birthers, because they don’t know what a natural-born citizen is! NOT A CLUE..

            He says Obama is not a natural born citizen. Why? His mom was a citizen, born in the US (Wichita), but not his father. (One parent disqualification??. Has anyone heard that rule applied to … white folks?)

            AND HAWAII IS AMERICAN SOIL!

            1) If statehood entry made any difference, ALL PRESIDENTS MUST BE FROM STATES WHO RATIFIED OUR CONSTITUTION!!! (double-duh)
            2) Hawaii became a state two years before Obama was born, which wouldn’t matter anyhow (See #1)
            3) Parents are irrelevant, UNLESS the child is born on American soil, but only ONE parent need be a citizen.

            So …. Obama would be a natural born citizen, even if he had been born in Kenya!!

            Trump has been bonkers since long before he ran. Now, “Windmills cause cancer.”

            1. OOPS
              Correction

              “Parents are irrelevant, UNLESS the child is not born on American soil.

            2. “So …. Obama would be a natural born citizen, even if he had been born in Kenya!!”
              False.
              His mother was not old enough (under the law in effect at that time) to confer citizenship on him.

              1. SHE WAS A CITIZEN AT BIRTH … ON AMERICAN SOIL … TO TWO NATURAL PARENTS …. (smirk)

                Another bluff, by a devoted Birther,

            3. Well, when the legal standard for who is and is not a “natural born citizen” has changed so many times, a certain amount of ignorance on your part must be expected.

              1. How many space aliens are still imprisoned in Roswell, NM?
                Was the moon landing faked?
                DO YOU VOTE?

            4. The criteria for citizenship at birth changed over time and was more complicated than “if you had one American parent”.

              In the case of citizenship status of a baby born abroad to a US citizen and a foreign national not a US citizen, there are US residency length requirements for the US citizen prior to birth of the baby for the baby to gain US citizenship.

              There used to be different requirements depending on whether the US parent was the mother or father, with the citizenship preference going to the father. At one time, the residency requirement of the US citizen had to be fulfilled *as an adult*.

              When I had looked into it, given the laws at the time of Obama’s birth, *if* Obama had been born in Kenya, he would *not* have been a US citizen at birth, as his mother had not yet fulfilled the required US residency term *as an adult*.

              To see the complication of the *current* law.
              https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401

              The links to the previous law are left as an exercise for the interested reader.

        4. Kenya….Just like his grandmother said! She stated she was there & saw him being born…..Within a couple of hours , the You Tube video was removed forever!

          1. Even if he was born in Kenya his mother was a citizen and he was raised in the U.S. this is litterally just racist drivel

            1. Your race baiting is a malignant societal cancer.

              Citizenship is not a race issue but a legal issue.

              “Natural Born” Citizenship questions were raised when John McCain ran for President, having been born in the Panama Canal zone, and he arranged for a Sense of the Senate resolution to at least assert that he was still a natural born citizen.

          2. Toddy Pump, where did you get THAT crazy conspiracy?
            I had just demolished the entire package,

            For the lie that suckered YOU. A natural born citizen includes children born ANYWHERE …. IF at least one parent is a citizen and meets residence requirements THAT is how crazy Trump is, and I acknowledge you as a victim, NOT a perp.

            https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/#comment-8163409

        5. Kenya, but who cares. To be president both parents must be USA citizens at the time of birth. It doesn’t matter where he was born, it matters that his father was not a citizen at the time of his birth and therefore he is not a “natural born citizen” and as per the constitution was not eligible to run.
          Kamala Harris had no citizen parents when born and is also not eligible, Ted Cruz not eligible either.
          Obviously you do not watch Fox as they also have token guests from the opposition, often ones that more honestly represent the oppositions actual positions.

          1. CAUGHT ANOTHER VICTIM OF TRUMP.BIRTHERISM!
            Already proved you wrong, but yours is the worst reply,

            https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/#comment-8163409

          2. That has never been the requirement.

        6. Obviously, you never watch CNN, which has at least one Republican on every panel.

          Where was Obama born?

          Who fucking cares, you drooling halfwit.

          This article is about the FDA and the CDC.

          This post is about how Fox News coverage is so radically different from it’s Ebola coverage.

          Hell, REASON’s coverage is radically different. We’re supposed to panic about the disease that gives most people infected a case of the sniffles–and, when it was Ebola, a disease that kills (currently) half the people that get it, we were told not to worry, we all had as much chance of getting it as we did getting hit by lightening.

          So get off your idiotic and endless prattling about birthers–who ’cause’ is moot and respond to what’s actually going on around you—hey!–are you Joe Biden?

          1. Azathoth!!
            Obviously, you never watch CNN, which has at least one Republican on every panel.

            Where was Obama born?

            Who fucking cares, you drooling halfwit.

            PRESIDENT DONALD J TRUMP!
            *sneer*

        7. Not exactly unprovoked. You’re just as arrogant and condescending as anyone else here.

    3. CNN’s coverage stands in stark contrast to its coverage of the 2009 swine-flu, which they did their best to downplay.

      http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/04/28/regular.flu/?iref=mpstoryview

      Back then they went to great paints to emphasize the fact that the regular flu kills 36,000 people per year, and to reassure people the novel swine flu, for which no vaccine was available, was not grounds for any great concern.

      1. You obviously have not been following the facts on this.
        COVID-19 is a unique threat because an infection shows no symptoms for 14 days. You feel great, but you’re infected, which makes you a potential threat to many others.

        That’s why so many were infected in that WA nursing home. It’s more dangerous for the elderly, and there were many of them, all living together as a community.

        1. And you obviously need a refresher on the 2009 Swine Flu:

          “I think the reason to be concerned is … we had a vaccine for regular flu,” said Dr. Carlos del Rio of the Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia. “This is a totally new virus. … You have a virus to which there’s no pre-vaccination, there’s no prior immunity. And, therefore, the mortality rate may be higher than other influenza viruses.”

          From https://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/04/28/swine.flu/index.html

          It didn’t turn out to have a very high mortality rate in the US, but we didn’t yet know that in the early months. When it first appeared in Mexico, it looked quite deadly, but it seems that was largely due to poverty and lack of resources in the region where it first showed up.

        2. The Corona virus is a unique threat because the symptoms are mild and invisible and will not kill a relatively healthy individual under the age of 60. The odds of survival is effectively 99%.

          But the H1N1 infected 59 million Americans (CDC estimate) and killed 120,000 Americans in a more visible and perhaps painful manner. Therefore, it was safer than the Wuhan Virus. It killed more people in such a transparent, chivalrous fashion.

          1. Umm, COVID-19 has just begun.

          2. XM, H1N1 killed between 12,000 – 18,000 Americans, not 120,000.

    4. I am making a good MONEY (500$ to 700$ / hr )online on my Ipad .Do not go to office.I do not claim to be others,I yoy will call yourself after doing this JOB,It’s a REAL job.Will be very lucky to refer to this…………………..HERE══════►     Read More

  2. //Due to red tape, the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. will be worse than it should have been.//

    Well, that’s a wild fucking jump to an unverifiable conclusion if I’ve ever seen one.

    //A frustrated Chu and her colleagues began testing on February 25 without government approval. They almost immediately detected a coronavirus infection in a local teenager with no recent travel history. Chu warned local public health officials of her lab’s finding and the teenager’s school was closed as a precaution. The teen’s diagnosis strongly suggested that the disease had been circulating throughout the western part of Washington for weeks. We now know that that is likely true.//

    If it was already circulating for weeks prior to any testing, why would the testing have made a difference? If people are already infected, testing them isn’t going to stop the infection.

    1. It sounds like she might have been able to test it earlier, maybe by those weeks, if the CDC had just said yes when she initially asked instead of giving het the run around.

      1. My point is that there is no basis to conclude that earlier testing would have stemmed the spread of the virus.

        1. Testing allows infected persons to be identified so they can be isolated and stop spreading the virus. It is the point of testing.

          1. Because infected people that aren’t tested aren’t infecting anyone. Right? The point, being missed yet again, is that the people being tested are the one seeking medical care (that is, the most severe cases). Many people are asymptomatic, are not getting tested, and are spreading the virus.

            This is not that difficult to understand.

            1. “Many people are asymptomatic, are not getting tested, and are spreading the virus.”

              Right- what is actually happening is that this virus has been circulating since christmas time, and only now are medical professionals checking to confirm whether that older person who died from pneumonia actually had flu or coronavirus. In January, my family (Orange County, ca) had several flu-like bouts.

              The only reason we are seeing the virus “spread” right now is that people are seeking care with only slight symptoms, and they are testing more people.

              This virus cannot be stopped. Unless you freeze everyone in place, and test 100% of the population and quarantine them, its infection and symptomatic attributes are impossible to track and reliably stop.

            2. “This is not that difficult to understand.”

              It is difficult to believe you’d be stupid enough to make this argument.

              1. That’s not an argument, dumbass.

                1. Like many conservative/libertarian thinkers, I think Sero and the article’s author have made themselfs the victims of confirmation bias. Consider the facts:

                  1. All Dr. Chu’s specimens were acquired before Jan. 15, 2020. Patient #1 returned from Wuhan to Seattle without symptons on Jan. 15. He sought medical help on Jan. 19 precisely because of a health alert issued by the CDC. The CDC authorized a corona test for him on Jan. 20, and amazingly got the result (positive) the same day! This was outstanding work by the medical community and CDC.
                  My citation for this is: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2001191

                  I urge everyone to read it.

                  Sometimes regulations can become an obstacle to speedy responses. Sometimes they prevent an Andromeda Strain type of disaster. The scientific theory behind this is: “Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you”.

                  What author Ronald Bailey has done here is to take an example of red tape and presume that it caused harm. But none of Dr. Shu’s specimens could have shown positive for Covid 19, since there was no virus present in Washington State prior to Jan. 15. We know that for a fact. We did not know for a fact at the time Dr. Shu asked for permission that however remote, it wouldn’t cause an Andromeda syndrome. Geraje Guzba is not stupid. He’s right. And you are not a dumbass. You just need to pay more attention to misapplying postulates to specific circumstances.

                  Finally, reading these comments, I am convinced that a worse threat than Covid 19 is our collective indulgence in civil discord over the small sub-sections of political disagreement, compared to the vast social and philosophical principles that we share, and which have allowed us to self-govern for nearly 250 years. So be nice, and make sure all your facts are true.

                  1. Read Bailey again.

                  2. John Gibson: thank you for a sensible and civil response. If only more commenters here were like you.

                    1. Ladyhawk informs us
                      It’s okay to be a lying sack of shit … defending needless suffering and possible deaths … IF ….
                      done in a civil tone!!!

                      Trump’s base. Scary?

                      https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/#comment-8166691

                      I will NOT be civil amidst such moral atrocities.

                  3. John Gibson .,… another LYING Trumptard … DEFENDING the willful negligence of this administration, resulting in needless infections and deaths. Shameful. But typical.

                    Dissecting Gibson’s bullshit, and dumbing it down:
                    1) Dr. Chu tested WITHOUT government approval.
                    2) Quickly found an infected teen.
                    3) Warned local authorities
                    4) The teens school was closed down.

                    By DEFYING both Gibson and this administration … Chu assured that an infected teen would no longer be a threat to his/het classmates … did the same for any classmates that MAY be infected .

                    THAT IS HOW HEROES ‘GIT ‘ER DONE.

                    BAILEY VERBATIM

                    A frustrated Chu and her colleagues began testing on February 25 without government approval. They almost immediately detected a coronavirus infection in a local teenager with no recent travel history. Chu warned local public health officials of her lab’s finding and the teenager’s school was closed as a precaution. The teen’s diagnosis strongly suggested that the disease had been circulating throughout the western part of Washington for weeks. We now know that that is likely true.

                    Trump was correct! His supporters would lie, to defend Trump of even murder, with witnesses.

                    Trump, himself, is NOT the only dire threat to America

        2. Well then, let’s run a little thought experiment and do the opposite — delay the testing even more. Like that outcome?

          What a fucking maroon you have inside that skull of yours.

          1. Let’s run another thought experiment. Test every person in the United States. That’ll stop the spread and be a great allocation of limited resources.

            Asshole.

            Go back to fucking your cousin.

            1. If we tested every American and quarantined those that tested positive from those that tested negative, wouldn’t that slow down the rate of new infections?

              1. Bullshit.

                Trump said that this virus is nothing. Just a bug. The US is safe and it will all be over this week.

                THE DOTARD HATH SPAKE!

              2. //If we tested every American …//

                I really didn’t think you would go beyond this point. Typically, when somebody puts an impossible condition in a hypothetical, it is to illustrate the absurdity of the position.

                1. Like you? Yours was absurd from the start. It hasn’t improved.

                  1. Well, you either test everyone and quarantine every county in the country (impossible) or pretend that testing a limited subset of individuals is going to stop the spread of infection by those that are asymptomatic, contagious, and untested.

                    Again, shut the fuck up.

                    1. Moving the goal posts:

                      is going to stop. No one said this but you. I love your mental gymnastics though!

                    2. testing a limited subset of individuals is going to stop slow the spread of infection

                      FIFY

                    3. Not moving any goal posts. If testing doesn’t stop infections, then earlier testing … without all the evil “red tape” …. wouldn’t necessarily have stopped anyone from contracting the virus.

                      Read the original article. I suspect, like most, you went straight to the comments.

                      How does your foot taste?

                    4. “…If testing doesn’t stop infections, then earlier testing … without all the evil “red tape” …. wouldn’t necessarily have stopped anyone from contracting the virus…”

                      Your “if” would tell anyone with at least half a brain that
                      You.
                      Are.
                      Full.
                      Of.
                      Shit.

                    5. Idiot.

                      Other than shitting on Hihn, it seems you’re only capable of shitting in your own mouth and then complaining about the color your teeth.

                      I’d tell you to go suck Weinstein’s dick but the only movie in which you’d cast is a porno in which you suck Weinstein’s dick. Faggot.

        3. Yeah, Bailey assumes a lot in making the claim. It is certainly possible that more testing sooner could have made things less bad. But it’s far from clear that it would have. If it’s in the country, it will probably just have to run its course. Maybe civic minded healthy people should try to get it to get some immunity in the population.

          1. A bigger point is if they had more knowledge about it they would have much more information with which to make decisions. Instead we have media pants shitting freaking people out and politicians throwing dirt clods and taking actions that could push the world economy into a bad recession or worse. And fuckwits in the media and Democrats (same difference) clapping their hands like trained seals because they think they finally got Orange Man Bad. Our political class and media really are vile motherfuckers.

            1. Why do you excuse Trump’s disgusting and dangerous role in so many deaths and needless infections … as you rage a partisan hissy fit?

              Would YOU have forbidden thousands of cruise ship passengers from leaving the ship, for quarantine, to be safely away from the dozen or so known infected passengers … , SAYING it’s to keep the numbers low. How many lives would YOU risk, to defraud the media and protect your re-election?

              1. “So many deaths and needless infections”….You just proved his point. Give me stats on how many deaths and needless infections he has caused . Yeah quarantining the passengers is WHAT YOU DO to prevent spread and needless deaths. Really, you hate so much you can’t think?

                1. (posted in self-defense AGAIN, That’s twice. SO FAR.

                  Ladyhawk called out AGAIN!!!!

                  So many deaths and needless nfections”….You just proved his point. Give me stats on how many deaths and needless infections he has caused I JAMMED THAT UP YOUR ASS, HERE.
                  https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/#comment-8166697
                  WHERE YOU SHAMEFULLY *DEFENDED* … BLATANT LIES TO HIDE THE TRUTH

                  **ALSO THE CRUISE SHIP … WHERE HE FORCED THOUSANDS TO REMAIN ON BOARD … AMONG DOZENS OF KNOWN INFECTIONS … AND HOW MANY UNKNOWNS? …. BEFORE FINALLY ALLOWING THE PASSENGERS TO DEPART … DIRECTLY INTO QUARANTINE.

                  ****THESE ARE HUMAN LIVES … PUT AT NEEDLESSLY GRAVE RISK … BY AN EGO-MANIACAL PRESIDENT … WHO KEEPS FUCKING UP … BECAUSE, OF COURSE, HE SAYS HE KNOWS MORE THAN THE EXPERTS.

                  ….. What’s YOUR excuse

        4. My point is that there is no basis to conclude that earlier testing would have stemmed the spread of the virus.

          Not the least of which being that the evidence, at least from the article anyway, that Chu’s test definitively works (FDA standards aside) is sparse at best. For people who’ve obsessed so heavily over an abstract and to a degree unknowable number like CFR, Ron and other’s don’t seem to give two shits about more concrete and knowable factors like sensitivity and specificity.

          One thing very much overlooked is the legal ramifications. I’m not saying the CDC should be impeding the testing of new diagnostics, but given the discussions about quarantine and getting reimbursed by the government, whatever testing does take place is going to carry a gold shield of legal protection, whether that’s public or private testing. If Chu’s test compels the CDC to quarantine someone falsely, will Chu(‘s team or business) be held responsible?

        5. If you have fact based warnings then you can decide if action is needed ! If you don’t know
          ,you can do nothing until people start dropping dead in the streets !!

        6. Actually you have NO point , as earlier testing would definitely helped prepare better and it is absurd to take the position you have presented.
          Your position is no more than why bother trying.

        7. No reason except reality.

          You test people to track the spread of the virus and quarantine those who have it, limiting the spread.

      2. CDC is led by Trump appointees now. I guess they aren’t libertarians.

        https://www.vox.com/2018/3/22/17150322/robert-redfield-cdc-director-trump

        1. Do you have a link to anything showing that the policies in question came into being after 2016?

        2. But it’s run by career civil servants.

          Yes, Minister should be required viewing.

        3. Trump changed the rule regarding testing being done by labs not approved by the FDA, but incorrectly blamed Obama instead of Bush. The Obama administration thought about abolishing the rule but did nothing (all per politifact in an article titled “Trump wrongly blames Obama for limits on coronavirus testing”).

          I’m disappointed Bailey didn’t mention it. It’s more evidence Trump is the most libertarian president in our lifetimes. He deserves credit for a libertarian policy change – Congress gets no credit.

    2. If it was already circulating for weeks prior to any testing, why would the testing have made a difference? If people are already infected, testing them isn’t going to stop the infection.

      Similar to my initial thought. If you didn’t do the testing until 20 days later and then concluded that the virus had been in circulation for weeks, what good does closing the school down do at that point? Sounds like a trade of the old precautionary-principle-worshipping boss for a new precautionary-principle-worshipping boss.

      1. You think there’s one case that starts it all and nothing ever starts new spreading? You think that once that initial case is out there, no new cases can pop up?

        How fucking dumb are you people?

        1. You think that once that initial case is out there, no new cases can pop up?

          Quite the opposite. I think the incubation period is 5 days and it’s not yet clear how long someone can shed the virus and shutting down the school something like 20-30 days after discovering the identity of patient not-zero is literally closing the barn door after the horse is out. You aren’t protecting anyone from primary exposure at that point, you’re engaging in a kabuki theater to minimize marginal risk.

          Moreover, one case literally does not an outbreak make. If the virus were passed from one person to one person, it wouldn’t be an outbreak and the idea that they caught an outbreak testing retroactive samples is a bit of a non-sequitur.

          1. Thank you.

          2. Incubation period is 9.1 days.

            1. This depends on the source (of the data) and to a degree is a bit moot. I’ve heard as little as 5 days and as long as 14 and that the window for shedding is even wider. Point being, before the 20-30 days in general population, this kid definitely contracted the virus from someone (likely in school) and almost certainly passed it off to quite a few people (in school) who, themselves, almost certainly passed it on.

            2. The Incubation Period of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) From Publicly Reported Confirmed Cases: Estimation and Application

              There were 181 confirmed cases with identifiable exposure and symptom onset windows to estimate the incubation period of COVID-19. The median incubation period was estimated to be 5.1 days (95% CI, 4.5 to 5.8 days), and 97.5% of those who develop symptoms will do so within 11.5 days (CI, 8.2 to 15.6 days) of infection.

              Some might put your head on a pike for the woulda/coulda/shouldas around using and spreading outdated, inaccurate, or unsafe information. I’m not one of those people.

              1. And in that 11.5 days the 97.5% of people who will develop symptoms will come into contact with thousands of people.

                And each one of those will come into contact with thousands of people.

                We’re already in the millions here.

                Because it’s a cold, that spreads like a cold, and acts like a cold.

                It’s not the flu.

                And when people finally stop running in circles and screaming and shouting we’ll discover that there were ENORMOUS numbers of infected that no one ever knew about–and that will push the mortality rate into the same place as all other cold mortality rates.

          3. The times when you wish you had a surveilance state

            1. No. Though that is the ultimate end point of the Precautionary Principle.

              1. In your dictatorship!

      2. Having it spread through schools may well be the best way to get through this. Or find a vaccine, but that will take a long time, and it’s not easy to mass produce quickly. It won’t go away until the population has some immunity.

        1. exactly I’ve been thinking the closing of schools and events is only going to prolong the problem. I say keep them open but elderly and ill should not attend, their choice, and if a family member does get sick they should keep to themselves since a vaccine maybe years away are we going to shut everything down that long no an people will start to ignore it after a month. i’m one who thinks they have pushed to many pandemics that never came thru and calling this a pandemic is laughable based on past experince

        2. It’ll have to run its course, the goal is to delay and widen the time in which it runs its course. One of the big threats from something like this is over-running the medical system, and general emergency systems.

          I may be wrong (I like almost if not everyone else here have no background in medicine or studying the transmission of diseases) but schools seem prone to very fast rapid transmission, since kids are filthy, and in close contact.

          1. I also have no medical expertise, so I may be talking out my ass, but maybe it would be for the best if it tore through the schools. Like when people used to deliberately get their kids infected with (at the time) unavoidable childhood diseases to get it all done with at once.

            1. It needs to spread as slowly as possible so hospitals aren’t overwhelmed with serious cases. Getting everyone sick at once is a recipe for disaster.

            2. Does Zeb mean … the crazed Anti-Vaxxers — who should be legally liable for the consequences of medical expenses, and/or deaths, caused by their actions. Or do they demand to be treated kinda like welfare mooches?

              Not sure why Zeb shares Trump’s goal of allowing as many deaths as possible.

              1. “Does Zeb mean … the crazed Anti-Vaxxers…”

                No, what he’s referring to predates the anti-vax movement. Parent’s would take their healthy kids over to infected kids’ houses just to “get it over with”. In cases like Chicken Pox, they wanted to ensure that that the kids got it as children due to the potentially severe consequences of contracting it as an adult. There was even a South Park episode about it (yes, it’s hilarious).

                “…Trump’s goal of allowing as many deaths as possible.”

                Right. As soon as he was advised about COVID-19, he immediately thought to himself, “I wonder how may corpses we can rack up”, while a Grinch-like grin spread across his face.

                Even if you meant what you wrote as mere sarcasm, it’s the kind of wording that has a chilling effect on meaningful conversation. You’re not helping anyone by posting things like that.

                1. He’s still INTENTIONALLY minimizing the virus efforts … to help his re-election … AND HE SAID SO.

                  The cruise ship, where he REFUSED to release thousands of passengers, FORCING them to stay on a ship with dozens of infected passengers .. SAYING it was to keep the numbers down (they were not then counted as infections “in America.”)

                  Thank GOD, the CDC pushed Trump aside, sent the ship to a remote port, and the passengers left the ship, directly into quarantine.

                  His oval office address was a MASSIVE FAILURE. The overnight futures market CRASHED immediately. On Friday, the Dow crashed over 10% … THE LARGEST ONE-DAY DECLINE since 1987,

                  NOBODY has faith in your orange god.
                  NO other stock exchange has seen anything close to ours — now losing more, percentage-wise, than the Crash of 1929 … and THEIR countries have MANY more deaths and infections. But never allow needless death and suffering to damage campaign slogans.

                  HIS OWN DAUGHTER, IVANKA, MET WITH A MAN LATER FOUND TO BE INFECTED. (this virus takes 14 days to show any symptoms.)

                  FOURTEEN DAYS, BUT TRUMP SAYS YOU DON’T NEED A TEST UNTIL AFTER YOU ALREADY HAVE SYMPTOMS … BECAUSE WE HAVE NOWHERE NEAR THE TEST TO GIVE. … SO BE A TRUMP SUPPORTER, BY WALKING AROUND INFECTING OTHERS.

                  Thank GOD, the head of the CDC was badgered into committing himself to making the tests FREE … at a Congressional hearing … and Trump reversed his earlier refusal in his Friday presser.

                  The JACKBOOT press conference where he shut down the reporters mics so they could not ask followups … and REFUSED TO ANSWER WHY HE SHUT DOWN THE WHITE HOUSE PANDEMIC OFFICE IN 2018.

                  I’m sure it’s a safe cocoon for you, containing Fox, Breitbart, Limbaugh, and Infowars.

                  ARE WE CLEAR NOW? THIS ONE IS NOT SARCASM EITHER.

                  1. I prefer to keep discourse civil, including online, so throwing around terms like “TDS” isn’t what I generally do, but some people make it _really_ challenging to adhere to that stance…

                    “His oval office address was a MASSIVE FAILURE”

                    I’m guessing you’ve seen Trump speak publicly before. Nothing about his unique ability to mangle sentences, semantics, and speech in general should surprise you, or anyone else who’s paying even a modicum of attention. Thanks for the all-caps, though – that and bolding the entire post is sure to open everyone’s eyes. You’ve done the forum a great service…no, really.

                    “NOBODY has faith in your orange god.”
                    “I’m sure it’s a safe cocoon for you, containing Fox, Breitbart, Limbaugh, and Infowars.”

                    It’s amazing how someone can be so presumptive about a person’s political views based on scanty evidence. Nothing in the post to which you responded could reasonably be construed as a representation of vigorous. let alone religiously fervent, support for Trump. It seems to me that you’re seeing what you want to see, rather than assessing my words (and those of others here) in a dispassionately rational manner. AFAICT, even when someone posts an objectively reasoned assessment of Trump, if that assessment is not full-on anti-Trump, then you automatically dismiss it, apparently considering any expression of fact or opinion which is not vehemently anti-Trump as worthy of only vitriol.

                    “ARE WE CLEAR NOW? THIS ONE IS NOT SARCASM EITHER.”

                    Hmmm…I’m still not sure whether you truly mean it…perhaps if you had managed to increase the font size to 48pt, your post would have been sufficiently convincing, but I’m just not feeling it…

                    1. *sneer*

                      “His oval office address was a MASSIVE FAILURE”

                      I’m guessing you’ve seen Trump speak publicly before. Nothing about his unique ability to mangle sentences, semantics, and speech in general should surprise you, or anyone else who’s paying even a modicum of attention.

                      WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
                      1) THE OVERNIGHT FUTURES MARKET CRASHED IMMEDIATELY
                      2) THEN THE DOW CRASHED OVER 10%, THE WORST DECLINE SINCE 1987

                      He had hoped to reassure Americas, but scared the crap out of the markets, *THAT* IS FAILURE. NOT HIS … GRAMMAR???

                      Thanks for the all-caps, though – that and bolding the entire post is sure to open everyone’s eyes.

                      THAT WAS RIDICULE
                      SO IS THIS.

                      It’s amazing how someone can be so presumptive about a person’s political views based on scanty evidence.

                      YOU WERE LYING??

                      Nothing in the post to which you responded could reasonably be construed as a representation of vigorous. let alone religiously fervent, support for Trump.

                      I DID NOT SAY OTHERWISE.
                      But all the falsehoods and myths …

                      ***P.S. Your snarky “reply” FAILED to even address the MAIN POINT … all that Trump has done (and failed to do) to minimize this crisis … WHAT YOU ASKED ME TO DETAIL. … AND I DID!

                      P.P.S. I just read that his administration WILL cut CDC spending. Ooops.

                    2. Wow…so much to unpack here that I’ll just offer a few responses.

                      Regarding the markets, the obsessive focus on them by the media, the public, and politicians, is almost useless. Short term extreme volatility doesn’t inform us of much except that Trump is a poor orator (which we all know), and that stock prices often suffer from the whims of perception-driven investor mobs. Also, what I stated regarding his public speech covered more than simply grammar, though disingenuously reducing it to that certainly made it easier to deride.

                      Yes, I admit to including some mild, though not harsh, ridicule. I feel that the general tone of your posts, plus your particular habit of cherry-picking snippets of the posts to which you respond and then railing against those snippets while ignoring the context in which they had been written, earned you a little snark. No need to thank me.

                      You referred to Trump as my “orange god” and directly implied that I’m a consumer of Infowars and similar drivel. When I observed that you had no evidence upon which to base that claim, your response was that you “did not say otherwise” – a trivially obvious lie which you thought worthy of all-caps (the evidence backing that is all right here in this sub-thread, should anyone have the stomach to wade through your frantic missives).

                      You closed your post with a statement which, in your obvious fervor to respond to things I didn’t actually write, shows that you managed to delude yourself into thinking that I had asked you to detail anything. I didn’t, and again, all the posts are right here to provide plain evidence of that. Furthermore, my initial criticism of your writings was solely to mock your assertion that Trump has a “goal of allowing as many deaths as possible” – your words – nothing else. If you had simply claimed Trump is incompetent, that would have been entirely reasonable, and my post likely would have been limited to the part about what some parents used to do about common childhood diseases.

                      I’ll try again to convey something which I believe _should_ be important to you: You aren’t helping yourself or the views you represent by approaching dialogue in the ways you do. It’s clear from your posts, despite the vitriol they contain, that you’re easily smart enough to grasp that and to do better. I hope you’re not coming here just to provoke abuse, because that would be a waste of your capabilities.

                      HAND

    3. GG: Earlier testing would have identified cases when there were many fewer infected folks. Those relatively few folks could have been isolated/quarantined and their contacts traced and monitored. Such early interventions would have prevented thousands more people from being infected thus stopping/slowing the epidemic.

      1. Man, Ron, no point in trying to explain that to these numbskulls. They don’t want to know any better. They are happiest being stupid and showing the world how stupid they are.

      2. Ronald:

        You are assuming there were “fewer infected folks” to test in the first place. What is your source for that?

        The incubation period for COVID-19 is approximately two weeks, give or take. Many of those infected are asymptomatic and contagious during that period and, even when symptoms arise, most cases do not appear to be severe enough to warrant seeking medical treatment. The people being tested, and testing positive, are often the worst case scenarios. Basing quarantine protocols on those cases will not guarantee containment since there are likely many more individuals that will never be tested that are infecting others.

        Indeed, as Professor Perkins concludes, in the Twitter feed you cite, “there are a lot of undetected cases out there.” Further, he concludes: “Another important lesson is that it looks like increased diagnostic testing might be helping. That said, we’re still probably missing more infections than we’re finding, and testing will have to keep up with the seemingly exponential growth” of the virus.

        As far as I’m aware, there is no existing estimate for initial pool of infected individuals. To conclude that testing, even quarantine measures, would have resulted in less infections is still quite a large leap. As they say, garbage in, garbage out.

        1. What, you think the infection starts once and never keeps on spreading?

          You really ought to stop advertising how incredibly stupid you are. It makes you look … stupid.

          1. I mean …. what do you when you get in your car in the morning? Do you look at the speedometer once and never again? Do you look at the morning temperature and assume it never changes for the rest of the day, or week, or eternity? Do you assume your coffee cup never empties once filled?

            Things change, bud, that’s why things need constant monitoring.

            Heaven help you if you ever get up in the middle of the night and check the temperature by mistake – you’ll be dressed for 30° when you get to the office.

            1. If you have nothing to add, shut your mouth, idiot.

              1. Take your own medicine much?

                1. Tip: If you swallow all the pills at once, you’ll sleep like a baby. You already think like one, so go for it.

          2. “…It makes you look … stupid…”

            That’s not just appearance.

        2. GG: I am puzzled. Could it be that red tape delays in the deployment of testing is a big part of the explanation of why “there are a lot of undetected cases out there”?

          1. It certainly could be. But you didn’t hedge in your article. You didn’t present a possibility. You presented an absolute, as though it was thoroughly established, and that was my objection.

            The other possibility is that testing is only partially effective, and that more testing isn’t necessarily going to stop the spread of the virus.

            1. ^This.

              There are a number of other possibilities, none considered.

              It is possible, as you admit but Ron asserts as absolutely true, that earlier, accurate testing would have been helpful. Certainly possible. Likelihood: unknown at this point.

              On the other hand, it is possible that the virus has already spread far and wide– that nearly everyone has already been exposed to it, that it’s fatality rate is much, much lower than has been initially assessed, and that all testing– and indeed all of the current government actions– are pointless. Likelihood: unknown at this point.

              It is also possible that a fully free market on coronavirus testing would have resulted in a vast plethora of tests, many of them worthless, ridiculous, or outright dangerous (“rip off your right pinky toenail and check the blood color to see if you’re infected. Works every time!”) Likelihood: unknown and unknowable.

              For the record, I think that FDA/CDC getting in the way of other qualified professionals trying to carry out tests is monumentally stupid. And as a prediction, saying the U.S. spread will be worse because of red tape seems fine– as one’s own prediction. But it’s nowhere near a fait accompli.

              Personally I think it’s already spread to the far corners of the globe and is nowhere near as dangerous as being sold. But IANAD — just a math and statistics guy.

              1. nearly everyone has already been exposed to it, that it’s fatality rate is much, much lower than has been initially assessed

                That seems pretty likely to me. I don’t see a lot of reason to believe that the numbers of infected people reported are not just the more severe cases.

                1. I suspect that it swept through the central US around mid-February. I was just reading about the symptoms people are reporting before coming over to Reason, and they’re pretty much what I and those I know well had experienced. I don’t usually get sick anymore, or if I do get a seasonal cold, it’s generally just enough nasal congestion to be annoying for two or three days (while my co-workers are hacking up their lungs and taking sick days). But whatever made the rounds in February kicked my ass – I was telling a friend that I had forgotten how bad being sick could be. Plus the symptoms were just as unusual as what’s being reported, including the diarrhea for a day and strange headache.

                  Everyone I know or work with got it, and it hammered pretty much all the ones over 30. Most peoples’ kids came through it easily, if they got sick at all. Some of my co-workers and most of my friends are older, though under 70, and a few have weakened immune systems, but nobody shit the bed or was even hospitalized.

                  I bet an antibody test would show all of us around here as having been already exposed.

          2. You admit your definitive assertion is based solely on a possibility?

            1. There won’t be an admission, or a modification of the article’s unsupported conclusion. That would requires journalistic integrity, something that is sorely lacking here at Reason.

              Without the hysterical headlines, nobody would read this rag. The goal of this article, and other like it, is to use every contrivance and misrepresentation of fact to somehow link the spread of the virus, and any resulting deaths, to Trump’s alleged incompetence.

              It is dishonest hackery.

              1. There’s not a single mention of Trump, or connection to him in the article.

                Do you think that we’re better off with less testing?

                1. Read the rest of the comments and stop being deliberately obtuse. The intentions are clear enough.

                  Bailey throws out some asinine red meat, and all the TDS afflicted retards lap it right the fuck up.

                  I made my points clear already. If you had ready any of the prior exchanges, above, you’d know exactly what my position is.

                  Now, go ahead and set up the “GG thinks less testing and more people dying is a good thing” strawman that you were going to set up in any event.

                  Fuck off.

                  1. “…Fuck off.”

                    You first; make the world a more intelligent place.

                    1. In the words of Joe Biden: “I’ll knock you the fuck out, you cod phased peony shoulder.”

          3. GG: I am puzzled.

            That much is obvious…at least when it comes to the difference between speculation and fact.

          4. Oh, and….”It could be true, therefor it is” isn’t an argument that should be made, let alone taken seriously, by anyone with an I.Q. north of room temperature.

            1. Isn’t that Bailey’s argument?

        3. You are arguing against reason and logic. What is your point ? What would be better to do than the feeble things we are doing?

        4. OMFG

          Ronald:
          You are assuming there were “fewer infected folks” to test in the first place. What is your source for that?

          Not what he said. (lol)

          If the testing had done a month ago, their WOULD BE “fewer infected folks”.

          In cases like this, the number of “infected folks” keeps increasing … perhaps forever (like the flu)

          Do the math. I’ll dumb it down
          1) Testing would have allowed “fewer infected folks”
          2) Since you don’t understand what “infectious” means, in “infectious diseases” … if fewer people are infected, then they cannot transmit the infections to others,
          3) Then again, even a “stable genius” cannot do the elementary math, Donald J Trump.

      3. Trump called the virus a hoax and said Democrats were fearmongering for suggesting serious action.

        1. Literally never happend.

          1. Literally insane. You and Trump.
            Or desperation?

        2. Trump called the virus a hoax

          When bullshit is all you’ve got…

          1. Ok, Trump called “criticism of his incompetent response” to the virus a “hoax”. I guess the buck stops at the CDC.

            1. And Trump was right. Everyone has jumped on the “Trump fucked this up” bandwagon and, when asked to identify what was done improperly, the conversation inevitably devolves into a debate about whether or not Trump has provided people with sufficient emotional coddling to get them through this apocalyptic event.

              1. He hired John Bolton…wow you guys live under a rock. To busy circle-jerking yourselves.

                1. With drool dripping off their chins!
                  When not French-kissing Trump’s lard ass. Slurp. Slurp.

            2. Ok, Trump called “criticism of his incompetent response” to the virus a “hoax”.

              In other words, you lied….and quiet clumsily.

              1. He didn’t call it a hoax…he implied it was.
                But why are you idiots defending him anyway, and not addressing real criticism?
                https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/

      4. Jesus Christ, Ron, when you argue with retards it only encourages them to think they might have a valid point.

      5. Ron,

        Is there a reason why we’re talking about the one call her test made that saved ‘teh chillunz’ rather than talking about how, out of the huge number of patients they tested, dozens tested positive (or not) and all of them went on to develop the illness (or not)?

        Absolutely don’t disagree that the FDA shouldn’t be standing in the way of diagnosis, but citing this anecdote seems a bit like the very sort of lab-to-newsroom sans peer review sensation that yourself, scientists, and libertarians would generally decry as dishonest and irresponsible even if it turned out OK.

      6. Mr. Bailey, you can’t be serious. You state:

        GG: Earlier testing would have identified cases when there were many fewer infected folks.

        Then answer this. How can specimens collected weeks and months before the arrival of the virus in the U.S. reveal the presence of the virus? Dr. Shu had a “huge” number of specimens. Exactly how many is huge? How lon
        g would it have taken t
        o test all of them?
        What would it have cost?

        The CDC confirmed a positive test on Jan. 20. I have no criticism of Dr. Shu, but every doctor in Seattle should have known what was afoot as of Jan. 21.

        Whether Dr. Shu tested or not, nothing would have turned out differently. You are simply in error about this. Testing all flu patients would been futile, costly, and scientifically unsound.

        1. Educate yourself, to avoid displaying your ignorance. There have been many infected people with no known contact with a traveler from abroad, direct or indirect.

          And because a near majority of the symptoms are quite mild, you have no clue on the timing and/or number of infections.

        2. PROOF: John Gibson = lying sack of shit.

          Whether Dr. Shu tested or not, nothing would have turned out differently. You are simply in error about this.

          What a disgrace you people are.

          1) Shu tested without government approval.
          2) Discovered an infected teenager
          3) Alerted authorities, who closed down the kid’s school.
          4) She saved kids from infection and possible death … by DEFYING Trump’s CDC red tape. And defying … you.

          How many OTHERS would be at risk, if those kids had become infected, and in their community?.

          **What Bailey actually reported (my emphasis)

          A frustrated Chu and her colleagues began testing on February 25 without government approval. They almost immediately detected a coronavirus infection in a local teenager WITH NO RECENT TRAVEL HISTORY. Chu warned local public health officials of her lab’s finding and the teenager’s school was closed as a precaution. The teen’s diagnosis strongly suggested that the disease had been circulating throughout the western part of Washington for weeks. We now know that that is likely true.

          How many more INFECTIONS AND DEATHS, if Shu had not defied the federal government, Gibson?

          How many infections and deaths did YOU defend … by LYING?

          Like Trump, you value his re-election above human life …. the lives of even schoolkids. Are you a father? SHAME ON YOU
          (uncontrollable vomiting)

    4. Knowledge of the results of testing is what changes the ACTIONS of people (and govts). If you don’t know shit then you believe that it’s nothing at all. And so you do nothing. If you take pride in that ignorance, then you assert that everything is under control and anything to the contrary is ‘fake news’.

      Meanwhile – tick tock tick tock tick tock – the virus keeps growing. And that early ignorance turns into total stubbornness and a refusal to face reality.

      1. This^

      2. Nobody is taking pride in ignorance. The fatal assumption in this article is that there was a readily identifiable pool of infectious individuals that could have been quarantined, had they been tested as promptly as possible, whereas most of the evidence points in the other direction. That is, there are many undetected (and, practically speaking, undetectable) cases of infection throughout the general population.

        Of course, knowledge influences actions. Incomplete knowledge is different. To affirmatively state that earlier testing would have prevented further spread of the virus is just not supported by the evidence.

        1. Nobody is taking pride in ignorance.

          Trump was completely focused on making sure ‘the numbers’ stayed low. Esp in comparison to other countries. He wasn’t interested in numbers that were accurate. He was interested in numbers that make him look good. This problem started inside the CDC. But there was absolutely ZERO pressure from above to clear out the constipation. The reverse – the pressure from the WH was to keep the numbers low. And the way you keep the numbers low is – don’t test. What you don’t know…doesn’t show up in the numbers.

          As recently as this weekend when Trump toured the CDC, he was publicly complaining about the cruise ship (American ship that loaded already infected American passengers/crew from an American port) docking because he didn’t want those numbers added to the US numbers. And he was praising the tests

          1. Nothing about this is an indication of anyone taking pride in ignorance, let alone Trump.

            Given stories about potentially infectious patients being let out of quarantine, I do not blame Trump for exercising doubt about letting infected passengers be quarantine on land.

            https://www.texastribune.org/2020/03/01/san-antonio-coronavirus-patient-was-released-after-weakly-positive-tes/

            1. FFS. Look at the videos of Trump at the CDC at his press conference. His own words coming out of his own mouth.

              1. Trump deferred to the CDC.

                I don’t see how anything is an indication that anyone, let alone Trump, is taking pride in ignorance.

                Nothing in Bailey’s article even mentioned Trump but, you know, TDS. It is more infectious than the coronavirus.

                1. Why would he be deferring to anybody?

                  I like this stuff. I really get it… every one of these doctors said, ‘how do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for President

                  1. I don’t care what he says, as long as he does what is required. And, he does. Maybe we need another article about how Trump tweets mean things, therefore, the virus will kill us all.

                    1. He hasn’t done SHIT about the virus. The only thing he gives a shit about, outside himself, is the markets.

                      Markets puke for a fucking week and he’s really quick to offer bailouts and other BS. That will by the end of this year – with more market puking – cost a fuckload more than TARP. And do NOTHING except reinforce the asset bubble of the 1%.

                      People die – and he is so totally unaware of reality/history – that he retweets a meme that snarkily compares him to Nero while commenting Who knows what this means but it sounds good to me.

                      He is dumber than a cucumber. Which is fine. It’s YOUR ilk’s response to that that is the real problem.

                    2. Keep praying for that apocalypse free!
                      And how dare he help the 1% by proposing the reduction or elimination of… payroll taxes???

                    3. //He hasn’t done SHIT about the virus.//

                      How inverted is your view of reality? Jesus fuck. You people are hopeless. Utterly and completely deranged.

                  2. Why would he be deferring to anybody?

                    Why, in a situation about an infectious disease would Trump defer to the doctors at the Centers for Disease Control?

                    What an idiot.

                    He should have done…..what exactly?

                    We reached the point, the day after the election, where anything Trump does is wrong according to you people.

                    And it’s just gotten worse from that point onward.

            2. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/10/no-president-trump-coronavirus-wont-be-fixed-by-positive-thinking/
              No, President Trump. The coronavirus won’t be fixed by positive thinking.

              Gasbag Blowhard,
              Please listen!
              You don’t know,
              What you’re missing!
              Donald’s ass, don’t be kissin’!
              Trump won’t love you,
              He’ll push and shove you!
              He’ll take your vote,
              Then call you a goat!
              He’ll tax your money,
              Then steal your Honey!
              Your pussy, He will grab,
              Your back, He will stab!
              His-victims-routines, He’s iterating,
              Shit about YOU, He’ll be Twitterating!

              1. Have you ever tried swallowing a fork?

                1. That’s the latest virus test.

            3. “I do not blame Trump for exercising doubt about letting infected passengers be quarantine on land.”

              Gasbag Blowhard:

              If people with infections are left in ships at sea, they are in crowded conditions. More crowding means more disease transmission. Their supplies have to be ferried to them, and their shit and garbage has to be brought back to land. Unless you want to dump it to sea? All the extra handling of materials back and forth, means more people exposed, as well as higher costs. Land facilities have better, safer sanitation infrastructure by far. Safer and cheaper!

              But NOOOO… Typical Trump! He wants to appeal to FEAR! Keep those cooties AWAY from us! Next, He will be calling to have these ships nuked from orbit!

              1. You can also stick a fork in an outlet. You tell me, good sir, why they would make the holes on an outlet so perfectly align with the prongs on a fork? TELL ME!

              2. Gasbag Blowhard cannot win arguments (or make polite conversation even) with ANYONE whose Trump-worshipping rituals differ in the slightest ways, with Gasbag Blowhard’s rituals. Gasbag Blowhard can’t handle facts and logic. So Gasbag Blowhard constantly resorts to childish insults, instead. Quite typical of all of the Gasbag Blowhards that I have ever known!

                1. I can’t make polite conversation with mentally ill libertarians that host websites identifying all the people that have been mean to them on the internet as though anybody gives a shit.

                  I can be polite, for the record. Will you kill yourself, please?

                  1. A typical Gasbag Blowhard’s idea of a polite conversation, a polite greeting, per Gasbag Blowhards in NAZI Germany: “Heil Hitler”!

                    A Gasbag Blowhard’s idea of a polite conversation, a polite greeting, per Gasbag Blowhards in the USA today: “Kill Yourself”!

                    Observe and learn the ways, and the ideas about an ideal society, of Gasbag Blowhards in the USA today, folks!

                    1. Add me to your list, then kill yourself.

        2. Nobody is taking pride in ignorance.

          I disagree. Chu’s test called one patient. A number that we know and they pretty openly admit can’t be correct. Moreover, we/they presumably know the outcome of her patients and testing. We aren’t discussing that because some people would prefer to shame others for acting out of ignorance rather than acknowledge their own.

          Just imagine, if Chu’s test were right, the government could quarantine people faster and harder! And if her test is just as bad as the one the CDC developed, they could quarantine people just as wrongly! Progress über alles!

        3. You are taking pride in your own ignorance and in wanting everybody else to know less; the less, the better, according to you.

          1. Fuck off.

            1. He’s right you know. You’re arguing that having more information is useless because it’s not going to solve every problem – but this researcher already had her samples and her tests, what’s the harm in allowing her to go forward without the High Holy Priesthood of government bestowing their blessings on the proceedings? It’s not like she was interrupting her production of a universal cure for cancer in order to do the tests, she was already running tests on flu swabs. You sound like the sort of person who scoffs at wearing seat belts because if a 747 falls out of the sky and lands on your car a seat belt won’t save you.

              1. //You’re arguing that having more information is useless because it’s not going to solve every problem//

                Never made that argument. But, ok.

                1. No, you didn’t. But this thread is derailed to criticize Bailey (deservedly in my judgement) for claiming something too strongly when the real point is why the FDA and the CDC think it’s their place to stop people from gathering information on the virus.

                  1. That would be a fair point to make. But Bailey decided to publish pointless clickbait instead.

                    1. Gasbag Blowhard is the essential example of click-bait! But… Surprise, surprise! Gasbag Blowhard provides NO coherent thoughts or links (or factual or logical underpinnings) of support of ANY kind, to support the position of Gasbag Blowhard!

                      Shall we be all-surprised when Gasbag Blowhard calls for the assembly, at midnight, of ALL and sundry supporters of Gasbag Blowhard… On the local street corner… And there is ZERO response!?!? Count me among the broken hearted! Paid my dime, and only farted!

    5. No, but having an idea of the extent to which it already has spread can help plan a more sensible response.

      Anyway, by what authority can the FDA tell Chu to “cease and desist” testing samples she already has with whatever tests she has?

      1. Anyway, by what authority can the FDA tell Chu to “cease and desist” testing samples she already has with whatever tests she has?

        I wasn’t privy to the specific discussion but have been a part of numerous discussions with various parts of the FDA. They’re usually pretty clear that you are free to test all you like, you just can’t contact patients and inform them of any results without the FDA’s approval. The sort of thing that goes back to a mandate in the 30s when quacks would prescribe snake oil to treat non-existent diseases. I agree it would be nice to say those days are long behind us and the FDA is near entirely useless, but Theranos.

        1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theranos

          Theranos claimed its technology was revolutionary and that its tests required only about 1/100 to 1/1,000 of the amount of blood that would ordinarily be needed and cost far less than existing tests.

          A turning point came in 2015, when medical research professors John Ioannidis and Eleftherios Diamandis, and investigative reporter John Carreyrou of The Wall Street Journal, questioned the validity of Theranos’ technology.

          Doesn’t look like it was the FDA that sounded any alarms there.

          1. Doesn’t look like it was the FDA that sounded any alarms there.

            I thought the idea was that the CDC is exercising too heavy of a hand in shutting down bogus diagnostics a priori? Which is it Goldilocks?

            1. I was addressing your claim that the FDA is necessary because of Theranos when the FDA had nothing to do with exposing the fraud. Nice try with the red herring though.

              1. So, how long after the WSJ ran the article did the WSJ shut down Theranos? If the WSJ was sounding alarms, then to whom?

                In 2012, Safeway invested $350 million into retrofitting 800 locations with clinics that would offer in-store blood tests. However, after many missed deadlines and questionable results from a trial clinic at Safeway’s Corporate offices, the deal was called off in 2015.

                You can shove your own red herring right up your ass.

                It’s explicitly not the FDA’s job to comb the literature and shut down companies proactively. The theme of the article is criticizing the CDC for being that proactive and then some. So, which is it Goldilocks? Do we empower the FDA and CDC to shut down sham medical and diagnostics more proactively or disempower so that shame medical and diagnostics companies can operate with greater impunity?

      2. Having an idea of the extent to which the virus has already spread is good. But it does not retroactively reduce the number of those already infected (including those that were not tested), which is the argument Bailey is making.

        That is my only problem. The notion that prompt and complete testing would have reduced the number of infections is unsupported. It presumes there was a readily identifiable group of infected individuals, just waiting to be identified and quarantined. The reality is likely much closer to a scenario where the number of infected individuals greatly outnumbers the number of the patients that have been tested positive.

        It is of course good to identify those who are infected. But, if those tests come at a time when that infected person has already infected others, and those others have already infected others, and so on and so forth, is the testing really preventing anything?

        Bailey’s argument is that the testing would have actually prevented the net number of individuals infected – but, there is really no way to know that. It is pure speculation.

        1. No it won’t treat those already infected. Quarantined work however by decreasing the number of infectious patients interacting with the public. While you would still have undetected cases (not tested) you have decreased the number of potential disease spreaders. Eventually this will slow the spread, as you identify more and more infectious patients. The earlier this is done, the fewer who need to be quarantined. It really isn’t difficult. Delay in testing increases, rather then decreases the number of people who need to be identified and quarantined. Eventually the number grows exponentially to large to deal with, or the disease dies out on it’s ow, figuratively (sometimes literally).
          Testing also allows you to identify others who need to be tested. The longer you wait for testing, the larger this population becomes. Eventually it becomes to large to test. Testing in January would have reduced the number considerably compared to waiting until March, even if the disease first entered the US in December.

          1. Testing also allows you to identify others who need to be tested. The longer you wait for testing, the larger this population becomes. Eventually it becomes to large to test. Testing in January would have reduced the number considerably compared to waiting until March, even if the disease first entered the US in December.

            All this assumes the testing, either way, is meaningful. FDA standards aside, I see precisely very little evidence of that being the case and, for that, the article should be criticized on scientific grounds.

            “We tested a bunch of samples, one came up positive, and we shut down a school long after the patient’s illness had run its course.” is pretty obviously trading one set of self-righteous, extra-precautionary stiffs in lab coats for another set of self-righteous, extra-precautionary stiffs in lab coats.

    6. Wasn’t there an article on Reason about not using Wuhan Covid 19 virus to push your pet political issue? I guess Libertarians might as well push their issues if the “china bad” and “free healthcare for all” crowds are pushing theirs.

    7. “If people are already infected, testing them isn’t going to stop the infection.”

      Geraje Guzba, virus expert and general expertologist of ALL expertology, HAS SPOKEN!

      Geraje Guzba is actually projecting here… If Geraje Guzba knew that he or she or it, had ebola and AIDS, syphilis and gonorrhea, got tested for them and KNEW all about it… He-she-or it would NOT change his-her-its behaviour, and would keep right on sneezing or cumming or puking on everyone in sight! Geraje Guzba, having NO consideration for ANYONE, would ignore test results, and do NOTHING about it, to protect others!

      PROJECTION at work here, folks!

      1. Fuck off, Hihn.

    8. Does Geraje have some daily quota to meet, for TOTALLY bizarre comments?

      If it was already circulating for weeks prior to any testing, why would the testing have made a difference? If people are already infected, testing them isn’t going to stop the infection.

      1) THEY’D KNOW TO BE QUARANTINED!!! (Which includes staying home, and/or staying .. I believe 6 feet away from others.
      2) The virus has NO SYMPTOMS for 14 days. THAT is why testing is so critical

      Well, that’s a wild fucking jump to an unverifiable conclusion if I’ve ever seen one.

      (no further comment needed

    9. It would have made a difference because we could have started mitigation measures a month earlier. Look at Italy. That’s us if we don’t get our shit together.

    10. //Due to red tape, the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. will be worse than it should have been.//

      Of course centralizing authority to provide medical testing prevents and slows testing.

      This is the unseen of what central planning *prevents*, seen. Reason used to have articles on how the FDA *generally* murdered 100,000 Americans a year by slowing adoption of effective treatments.

      Will Reason *ever* go libertarian on healthcare and support a general right to self treat from providers and suppliers of *your* choice, instead of the FDA’s choice?

      They demand the right to get stoned, but not the right to *heal* ourselves.

  3. Testing for corona virus primarily serves a public health purpose. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if some academics got the test wrong and spread inaccurate information about disease prevalence? The thousands of lives that would be wrecked by the state because of false test results?

    Under our current system, test results cause severe state action, and false test results are a disaster. That’s why these tests are currently regulated.

    1. Then mandate the state can’t act on the information until verified by the CDC. Most people when they learn they might have a deadly disease will take actions to prevent others from catching it.

      1. And then we’d get articles slamming the CDC for wasting precious time with futile verification procedures.

      2. Then mandate the state can’t act on the information until verified by the CDC.

        I’m not king, so I can’t mandate that. And politicians aren’t going to mandate that for the simple reason that they would be blamed if someone diagnosed by an unofficial test would then go on to infect others. So your proposal is not feasible.

        You’re welcome to try and come up with a feasible proposal.

        1. You’re welcome to try and come up with a feasible proposal.

          I doubt anything proposed is going to happen, thus all proposals are infeasible. No true snotsman.

    2. Right, because government never gets it wrong.

      1. The state gets things wrong frequently; what does that have to do with what we are talking about?

        1. God you are dumb. State mandates to prevent bad tests from giving false positives served only to provide us with a flawed state mandated test that gave many false positives. Meanwhile, actual smart people who know what they are doing are prevented from fixing the situation because dumb asses like you think government knows best.

    3. N: And now we get to see how excessive regulation stymieing the early collection of accurate information will get to wreck thousands of lives.

      1. Repeating an unsupported conclusion doesn’t make it true, Mr. Bailey.

        1. the article provides the supported conclusion. read what is written not what you want it to be

          1. I already had a long discussion with Mr. Bailey. He admits as much. I don’t expect you to keep up with every post. But, if you’re going to comment, know what you’re talking about. Otherwise, move along.

            1. since there is no evidence to support otherwise you can’t claim its not supported learn about the real world and move along

              1. To recap:

                Bailey made an unsupported claim in the most absolute of terms, admitted he did so, and then you chimed in with the eminently brilliant notion that Bailey is actually correct because his detractors cannot disprove his assertion.

                Is it gold stars or blue ribbons these days? Anyone? What do they give the retarded kids these days?

        2. Geraje is humiliating himself.
          In publlic
          PROOF

      2. “will get to wreck thousands of lives.”

        See you keep going down this path unsupported. This virus is a perfect storm- many people get it and don’t know it. Many people spread it before they know it. By their own statistics, if a person has gone in with health problems, probably 10 other people around them are spreading the virus without noticing more than a bad cold.

        Whether we were testing in January, or testing in February, this virus was going to get out of control. You talk about all these other countries that were “more aggressive” with testing. And yet, among countries with heavy travel and dense urban areas, few countries are in as GOOD a state as the United States.

        I agree that the red tape should be gone. But I agree with others who point out that there is a high likelihood this virus was out of control even before this Dr Chu took her first test.

        1. I don’t understand why it is suddenly sacrilege to point this out. My guess is that admitting things are being handled relatively well undermines the “orange man bad” narrative. Frankly, I don’t give a fuck about Trump. I care about people misrepresenting the facts because accurate reporting would make Trump, maybe, potentially, even for a split second, appear to be deserving of at least some credit, however minuscule.

    4. And the “regulated” CDC test got it wrong.

    5. “Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if some academics got the test wrong”

      They already got some of the tests they were given wrong lol. Not saying your point isn’t on the nose. Just saying our government sucks, aparently uniquely as other states are doing just fine

    6. “Libertarians for Central Planning and Control of Healthcare”

      #ClownWorld

  4. The only shocker here is the fact that the article was run by the NYT.

    1. That was my surprise reaction too. I have zero faith in the NYT’s old motto “All the news that’s fit to print”; it seems to have become “All the propaganda we want to brainwash you with”, and I keep on wondering what their real motive is. More funding for the CDC and FDA is my only guess.

      1. My guess is that Ron selectively edited the NYT’s story – I’d guess the NYT throughout the story referred to “Trump’s CDC” and “the Trump administration” and “Trump officials”, never missing an opportunity to suggest this is all Trump’s fault.

        The truth is, the CDC was given the job back in the ’50’s of developing a plan for dealing with a biological weapons attack on the United States as well as all manner of infectious disease outbreaks and if their plan for dealing with a public health disaster of the magnitude of a new flu outbreak was to develop a plan for dealing with a public health disaster of the magnitude of a new flu outbreak, I’d have to say they’re not doing a very good job.

      2. More funding for the CDC and FDA is my only guess.

        Discredit the CDC, move straight from bench to public knowledge reporting. The NYT is the record, why bother with the CDC, especially when bad people can fuck with it? AFAICT, Chu’s test made one right call (maybe) but you and others are certain that any skeptic that reasonably doubts such fantastic claims is labeled an idiot.

      3. “All the News that Fits The Narrative”

        Since The Narrative this week is how “Trump’s” FDA bungled coronavirus testing, it gets in.

        All the same principles of centralized control crippling healthcare have applied for decades. Reason used to write articles on how the FDA was murdering about 100,000 Americans a year by slowing adoption of effective practices.

        I’d say that’s a wild underestimte of deaths caused by medical central plannind and control. I doubt this estimate takes into account the *compounding* effects on the advance of medical care possible in a free society.

    2. government systematic failure = orange man bad = run story

      1. The systemic failure was defunding the CDC for 12 years and letting John Bolton cripple it even further, the man failed his way to the top of Washington.
        Orange Man is an egotistical maniac who downplays everything in the most comical way, “bad thing will magically dissapear, I have only the best people”
        The fact that it’s a story is normal
        What is not normal is how much you Trumptards trust this crazy spoiled unprofitable billionaire.
        But you will soon see your cult around this man will fall apart, and you’ll take the country with you.

        1. Also, Trump shut down a White House pandemic department in 2018.

  5. People keep saying trump needs to listen to the CDC but here is more proof that not only did the CDC fail with their own test they won’t allow others to test. maybe Trump was right he does no more than everyone else

      1. so he put someone in who actually worked in the real world thank goodness for Trump

    1. Trump said he is a medical genius when he visited the CDC.

      TRUMP DON’T NEED NO FUCKING EXPERTS! HE A GENIUS!

      1. But He’s a Stable Genius about EVERYTHING!

        Quotes from The Donald in the “Anti Gravity” column in August 2017 “Scientific American” magazine follow:
        “I have great genes and all that stuff, which I’m a believer in”,
        “God helped me by giving me a certain brain”,
        “I have a very, very high aptitude”,
        “Maybe it’s just something you have. You know, you have the winning gene.”
        Google the quotes, they are real…

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/04/17-issues-that-donald-trump-knows-better-than-anyone-else-according-to-donald-trump/
        Trump:
        “I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth.”
        “I understand social media. I understand the power of Twitter. I understand the power of Facebook maybe better than almost anybody, based on my results, right?”
        “Nobody knows more about debt. I’m like the king. I love debt.”
        “I understand money better than anybody.”
        “I think nobody knows the system better than I do.”
        “I know more about contributions than anybody.”
        “Nobody knows more about trade than me.”
        “Nobody knows jobs like I do! ”
        “Nobody in the history of this country has ever known so much about infrastructure as Donald Trump.”
        “There’s nobody bigger or better at the military than I am.”
        “I know more about ISIS [the Islamic State militant group] than the generals do. Believe me.”
        “There is nobody who understands the horror of nuclear more than me.”
        “Because nobody knows the system better than me. I know the H1B. I know the H2B. Nobody knows it better than me.”

        1. You forgot Trump insisting, “WINDMILLS CAUSE CANCER?”

          1. https://time.com/5649313/trump-wind-cancer-iowa/

            President Trump Says Wind Turbines Cause Cancer. 99% of Iowans Disagree

            I hang my head in shame, and ‘fess… I did NOT know! Well, NOW I know! Ah does now consider meself to be edumacated… Thanks Yew!

            1. Thanks. I appreciate the correction.
              But the Gomers think you and I one person. 🙂

  6. It is idiotic to have anything reside with the central government that require fast decision-making. If they want to offer coordination, and have pre-emptive powers after a showing of need, ok. Had this been free market, fools would have been able to buy these tests about 3 weeks after China started identifying the virus. There are now a bunch of backlogged “reagents” (chemical ingredients) that are now being cranked out. But that message, that the market was short, too far too long to communicate and undoubtedly would have flowed faster from one of 500 testing companies vs the central gov’t.

    1. exactly another item of note is the left and media demanding that Trump and the CDC give difinitive orders instead of letting the individual states determine how to react. I like the differing states doing different things to see which works best because in reality the CDC doesn’t know whats best but i think they want Trump to do something authoritarian mainly to attack him for doing just that.

      1. Ron’s proposal seems really nuts, but let’s find out, so we did it.

        We ran tests for a month in all 50 states. Each state devised their own tactics. In only a month, we”d KNOW what works best. SIMPLE!

        Well, don’t do what Ohio, Texas, Idaho, Missouri and Illinois. did.

        Why not?

        Combined, and adjusted for population, their infection rate was nearly twice the average. And 63 more people died (per 1,000)

        That’s so sad. Did all those people have to die?

        They had no choice on experimenting, but picked the worst tactics for those states

        We need to stop this!

        Can’t.

        Why not?

        A conspiracy freak, named Ron, imagined a NEW sinister conspiracy of “the left and media” to foment hysteria and damage our President’s re-election.

        Okay we can’t stop the testing. Can we get Ron to shut up and sit down

        Probably not. Of the seven conspiracies living with monsters under Ron’s bed, five of them are severe threats to America. To Ron, those 63 deaths are a small price to pay … to save MILLIONS.
        Right?

        1. I’m wondering why you think the federal government wouldn’t pick whatever hypothetical tactics it was that “Ohio, Texas, Idaho, Missouri and Illinois” picked. We can kill an extra 63 people per 1000 in the whole country, instead of just 5 states! As a bonus, our one-size-fits-all federally mandated tactics can paralyze remote settlements in Alaska for no good reason, while being wholly inadequate in downtown NYC.

          1. Have an adult read and explain it to you. I simply don’t have enough hours (or patience) for more than some quick (and obvious) advice and comment.

            1) Mine should be SELF-EVIDENT as ridicule, of Ron’s dumbass idea, showing WHY it’s dumbass.

            2) My hypothetical — NEVER mentions, or even suggests, ANY role for the federal government, so I again suggest you find an adult with the time, and the patience, to help you through your obviously paranoid delusions.

            3) You also fucked up Ron’s proposal, again delusional. He NEVER says ANYONE would “pick” any tactics. He is so confident that the safest tactics (lowest death rates) would then be adopted by all states … measured and compared per the type of crazed federalism popular among alt-right Gomers.

            4) You may be an alt-right Gomer yourself. Since you agree Ron is bat-shit crazy (or want to know if he is), your response should have been directed at Ron!

            5) UNLESS … If you’re really saying the federal government would intentionally urge how to kill the very highest number of people — and YOU are not not joining my own satire-as-ridicule. — then
            a) you’re even crazier than Ron is, OR
            b) you assume Congress would continue allowing President Trump to kill even more than he has so far, OR
            c) you assume RON wants to remove Trump from killing more people …. including (possibly) himself, which would give us the far worse Pence as President, who, as governor said he’d deal with an HIV crisis in his state by … praying … since God almighty would strike him dead for helping any goddamn faggots (who should have been stoned to death on the steps of the state capitol building.

            6) Sorry, I’ve already devoted more time than your query deserves.
            If you need more you’ll need to (hopefully) find an adult with the time and patience to read it to you, ever so slowly … explain it in the simplest of terms for you … wipe the drool dripping off your chin and change your diapers both as needed … and whatever additional baby sitting you require, which is likely a lot.

            By the way, THIS too is satire. I simply cannot believe ANYONE could POSSIBLY have posted your comment from serious concerns.

            GOD BLESS AMERICA! AND ALL THE SHIPS AT SEA!

  7. Due to red tape, the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. will be worse than it should have been.

    I’m not sure it’s just red tape at CDC that caused this. CDC has long had a bit of a competitive streak re the WHO. Who’s better at doing this stuff? We are. Exacerbated by pols who always find votes in ‘we’re the real experts compared to some bunch of UN weenies’. That creates a ton of arrogance. It’s no accident IMO that everyone who just copied/altered the WHO testing protocols rolled testing out much much sooner. Here’s some testing comparisons by country. China is missing here – but last I’ve seen their numbers of tested/million is just behind Korea.

    The other problem I think is that the CDC has become captured by pharma. ‘Vaccines’ is the mindset of both and has been so since the 1960’s and the successful childhood stuff. Problem is once you’ve got that mindset, there’s a huge risk that that mindset of having a particular solution in mind also taints the way you go about collecting info. CDC essentially stopped being a public health organziation and instead has become more of a free data gatherer for pharma.

    I completely agree that that testing clusterfuck is going to make things worse here. As in – it’s going to kill a lot of people.

  8. Pandemic declared by the WHO. Time to grow government ten fold. Declare martial law. Burn the constitution. All for our safety or whatever.

    1. The size of the State increases when the size of the problems increase. I’m sorry but capitalism can’t fix everything, maybe step out of your ideology for one second, and realize the problems we’re facing are far more managerial, menial and ultimately bureaucratic because people don’t know any other way to operate practically.

  9. Goddamn, Trump-Trash! Boeing share price is down $30 today and 50% off its 52 week high. They just drew down $13 billion to pay current expenses.

    Markets are getting routed.

    The Trump Crash is on! Its like 2008 all over again when the Bushpigs wrecked the economy!

    1. Celebrate much?

    2. And if you bought at the bottom, you made out well.

      And a good part of Boeing’s decline is based on their planes falling out of the sky.

      1. And a good part of Boeing’s decline is based on their planes falling out of the sky.

        My understanding is that they didn’t so much fall as actively steered themselves out of the sky and at least part of the problem seems to be that Boeing was less than transparent in reporting about or fixing the problem.

        1. Probably wasn’t a good idea to hire $10/hr coders in India

          1. I’m sure someone made good money off the decision!
            Especially since we give them tax breaks for leaving the country.

          2. Well, that’s almost never a good idea, but that wasn’t Boeing’s problem with the Max.

            They made changes to the plane, but wanted to avoid the arduous and expensive FAA re-certification process required for new plane models. So, they not only assed up the sensor that was all over the news, they also modified the plane’s avionics software to interpret the sensor’s readings in a way that was supposed to compensate for the broader changes to the aircraft. In certain flying conditions, that combination lead to real problems for the pilot trying to control the aircraft. Even worse, those problems were exacerbated by the control hydraulics (I forget the proper name) which are supposed to prevent improper or sudden movement of the physical control – the “stick” – so that when the sensor failure mode occurred, the pilot pretty much had to put every ounce of muscle into overcoming the control’s safety hydraulics just to keep the plane straight. It was a nightmare scenario, and the initial rush to blame “pilot error” was unconscionable.

            [I haven’t used the right nomenclature above, sorry – it’s late, it was a long week, and my brain is tired while my body isn’t ready for sleep yet.]

      2. Hmmmm, I would have thought investing in Boeing would be as safe as investing in Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, they might not actually have access to the government checkbook but they’re very, very good friends with the people who do and everybody knows it.

        1. I’m sure like Chevy the government will help Boing if needed, now if Obama was in charge he’d give Boing to another country like he did Chrysler.

          1. BUSH DID THAT (lol)

  10. This of course is why we need Medicare for all. If Dr. Chu worked for the government not only would she know better than to ask for permission, she would know to keep her mouth shut about the lack of testing after the fact.

    1. Every country with nationalized healthcare will have an easier time with this virus. Nationalizing your healthcare doesn’t make you communist. Basing your healthcare on price-gouging an insurance “networks” where your coverage changes according to your employer is a disaster.
      It is amazing to watch you people spin your pro-crony-capitalist propaganda while you claim to love freedom!

    2. What most of you fail to realize is if you want medicare for all you can automatically cut your yearly salary in half to pay for it. Then if you want free college tuition there goes another 30% right off the top. Now you are going to take home less than 20% of what you earn no matter what income bracket you are in.

  11. The FDA needs to be completely overhauled. It’s a failure in so many ways.

    1. By overhauled, I assume you mean cleansed with fire.

      1. Then who would protect us from the evil pharmaceutical companies by stopping their medicine and vaccines from reaching the marketplace?

    2. The WHO could certainly use a good housecleaning. They completely overstepped their mission on this, and understepped their assigned role.

      1. +1 Quadrophenia

      2. The WHO has been far more competent here than the CDC.

          1. Sorry. But after four years, if they’re not being managed competently then the buck stops in the current WH and HHS. Not some BS from 8 years ago that serves your political goals

          2. What about Trump totally closing down the White House Department on pandemics, in 2018. Or did Obama trick him into it? 🙂

        1. Although I agree that the WHO has been more competent than the CDC, we shouldn’t stop our criticisms of the WHO for one second it’s the perfect example of how international institutions have been designed to get their funding from the highest bidder, they have been TOTALLY reactive and not proactive at all.

      3. WHO added to Trump’s humiliation on this. So they should all be lined up and shot. In front of their families (but not in front of their dogs or puppies)

        So far, as type this, only two Trumptards are clueless that WHO was performing its purpose, while Trump was not! He literally fiddled, while Rome America burns

        Forget where I saw this.

        Trump is more interested in stabilizing the stock market than dealing with the virus. Yesterday, he announced he would hold a press conference today to roll out his economic proposals—a “major” economic package— to help mitigate the crisis caused by the coronavirus and the oil war between Saudi Arabia and Russia. …. But today no plan was forthcoming. …

        Trump’s laser focus on helping industry … has lost even former Republicans. … Bill Kristol, former Republican stalwart, reflected on Trump’s economic plans and tweeted: “Congress: 1. No bailouts for industries. 2. Targeted help for hospitals and the health care sector. 3. General relief directly to workers and families. The owners of capital have had a good decade and can weather a downturn; it’s labor that deserves a strengthened safety net.” (This prompted one wag to respond: “Wait, who are you?”)

        But …. HILLARY’S EMAILS!

        1. He “literally” fiddled?

          Interesting that you would reference that saying, though, as it seems to be a slander of a country’s leader. Nero certainly didn’t fiddle while Rome burned. He couldn’t have – the fiddle was invented hundreds of years after the Roman Empire fell.

          1. He “literally” fiddled?

            NOBODY said NERO “literally” fiddled. Not on this page.

    3. The FDA is not a failure but it suffers the same problem as all the government agencies. Instead of being focused on the mission of the agency you have lifelong government beaurocrats that act like they one of the participants in a game of survivor sabotaging their coworkers and bosses in hopes they will move up the corporate ladder.

  12. Yesterday I was talking to a guy I know who works at the NIH and he surprised me by talking like a fucking Marxist. He said the CDC and the government should be the ONLY entity to handle these things. Ever. The private sector is too slow or they don’t have the incentive to respond, etc etc, he said. I don’t argue with people about these things anymore. It’s too much effort and it gets you nowhere. All I could do is sigh and shake my head.

    1. Oh yeah, he praised the fuck out of CHINA(!) for their response to this. Oh, they built a huge hospital in 10 days. Uh ok. And they were able to contain it! You can’t do such things in the US, don’t you know. Too worried about profits!

      He’s such a smart guy otherwise. Pretty damned disappointing to hear that bullshit coming from him.

      1. You can’t do such things in the US, don’t you know. Too worried about profits!

        The biggest obstacle is Trump, He fucked up the tests for nearly a month, but you think he could build a hospital in 10 days! Maybe 20 days to build a nuclear reactor?

        When YOU whine like a pussy, about that hospital … you’re too worried about those damn commies … NEVER praise ANYTHING they do, because … they might be encouraged to do more good! (gasp)

        1. When YOU whine like a pussy, about that hospital … you’re too worried about those damn commies … NEVER praise ANYTHING they do, because … they might be encouraged to do more good! (gasp)

          I can tell you’re all about liberty and the truth.

          1. Thanks!
            Trumptards would be screeching in rage!!

            1. Like you do when people criticize communist governments?

              1. OMG ANOTHER TOTALLY STUPID CONSERVATARD.
                ONLY communists would not french-kiss Trump’s lard ass!!!!
                REALLY?

                Well, chump, here’s a link to the web archive of my political writing.
                http://www.libertyissues.com/archive.htm

                That’s the index page, with a very short summary of each article.
                Look especially at the topics Taxes, Health Care and Federal Budget/Debt.

                You’ll learn three things.
                1) I’m a libertarian, not a commie
                2) By comparison, on those three topics … Trump is a drooling retard with even less sense than you.
                3) You’ve humiliated yourself, publicly,

                Anything else?

      2. China’s response has turned out to be quite excellent after the first few weeks of denial. Brutally effective – and it saved lots of lives. The fact is that purely medically, the lockdown prevented almost all future spread within Wuhan. People had to stay inside their apts with healthcare workers visiting them for tests and such. So only a relatively small % of even Wuhan has been infected. Yet – that will unfold further in the second wave. And while that small % of infected overwhelmed their hospitals – they built hospital/bed capacity fast (for the less serious patients) – and brought 30,000 medical personnel from other places in China to deal with the full-to-bursting hospital system in Wuhan.

        None of that will happen here. We won’t be able to send medical folks from place A to place B – like we do in hurricans or other sorts of disasters. Because this is going to hit everywhere in the US now. And we won’t have any extra fast-build temporary capacity (Wuhan is now tearing down close to half of the beds capacity they built a month ago – but presumably some of that stuff will be shipped elsewhere in China). We are still a month+ from seeing the result on fatalities here.

        I suspect we won’t get as good results as even Wuhan. the Milan area hit hospital capacity a few days ago – and their fatality rates are now well above Wuhan – because the people who have serious cases can no longer be treated there. And we are far slower than even Italy in even understanding the problem we currently have. this is dead people in the streets stuff. Third World. It’s gonna be the biggest mindfuck of our lives when our complacency and arrogance really hits home here.

        1. As someone who’s raised concerns about this virus (and been taken to task for it here) I would hesitate to praise the China response.

          China’s response didn’t do a very good job of balancing liberty with proactivity, and the measures may have caused very damaging second order effects that you’ll likely never hear about because it’s China.

          I have some first-hand knowledge of some of the things that China was doing and simply, even if the American system swung into vigorous, proactive measures, you’d simply never get away with the stuff that China’s doing.

          I also don’t buy the Chinese numbers. I do believe they may have slowed the spread significantly, but because China doesn’t have a lot of credibility on transparency, I suspect they had more infections and deaths than they admitted.

          1. I suspect they had more infections and deaths than they admitted.

            Of course they did. This is their nature at all times.

            1. To be fair to the Chinese government it isn’t “misreporting” if you physically don’t have enough capacity in test kits or CT scan to test everyone, we’re litterally having the same problem here.

              It’s also important to mention there is litterally almost 20% of the global population living in China.
              No STATE, no PUBLIC-PRIVATE partnership, no CORPORATION, no NGO, is going to keep track of a virulent disease as it spreads through a population of litterally 2 BILLION people, that’s a totally unrealistic expectation. Now you ad on top of that, the kill-the-messenger mentality that happens in any bureaucracy, and honestly you’ve got to tip your hat to the Chinese, from the way their system is designed from the ground up, these people have worked around it to make it work.
              The questions is can we do a fraction as well as what they’re doing? I say out government could quarantine a day-care, were the only people that got sick were kids. I hope to God I’m wrong.

              1. correction*I say our government COULDN’T quarantine a day-care

          2. I totally agree that they didn’t include ‘liberty’ in any calcs at all. And I agree that what they did do couldn’t be replicated here. Here by the way is a video about the first 30 days of the lockdown. Yes its govt. Yes there’s a ton of stuff that I’m certain isn’t in this video. Yes there’s some of the typical ‘we are all joyously working together to fight the enemy’ that you would expect. But there is also a ton of info there that can be combined with other info to produce a much clearer picture of what has been happening there.

            They DID slow the spread massively. Not as much as they say they did in the stats – but those pictures of empty Wuhan are not a Potemkin village. People in their apartments for weeks are NOT spreading diseases around town. So any normal disease curve that shows exponential growth for 2+ months before peak is simply not true for Wuhan. They locked down within 3 weeks of the real ‘breakout’ on the curve. Therefore any ignorant expectation of 2+ months of exponential growth (a huge pool of infected that would give us ‘confidence’ that this is nothing to really worry about) is also false. Deaths I’m certain are higher than reported. 11 million people locked down for 6 weeks? Of course people die – and I’m certain medical people weren’t wasting time doing autopsies there. Stuff I didn’t even really think about – but that affects the known data that is out there – before I looked at the video.

            And the fact that Xi visited Wuhan yesterday is a REALLY good indicator that they controlled the outbreak. Because absent that lockdown – right now is roughly when the disease would be peaking in Wuhan

            1. We’re all thinking it. We all know we wish we had a COMPETENT surveillance state right now.

        2. Well, to be fairer to the US, in the US we use soap, don’t spit all over the streets everywhere, and don’t live in filth like in most of China, where this virus started.

          1. in the US we use soap, don’t spit all over the streets everywhere, and don’t live in filth like in most of China

            Have you visited San Francisco lately?

      3. yea China built a hospital that collapsed and killed more than the virus did

        1. That was not a newbuild. That was a converted hotel

          1. doesn’t matter it was still approved by the Chinese government hence just because they did something doesn’t mean its worth anything

        2. China built a hospital that collapsed and killed more than the virus did

          The virus killed more than TEN.
          https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-coronavirus-hotel-collapse-quanzhou-1.5490206

          And there were TWO that China built, while Trump was more concerned with his election, over human life. Apparently, so are you,

          Some of you people are as shameless as Trump.

          1. actually 38 are dead so far BTW do you want Trump to take over property and turn it into hospitals that will collapse and maybe kill your family.

            1. actually 38 are dead so far BTW hahaha, you’e the one who sneered the number of deaths in China is …. TEN …. 10 …. 9+1 …

              https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/#comment-8163049

      4. And this really has nothing to do with commies. It has to do with understanding that government DOES have a role in public health.

        Yes it doesn’t surprise me that top-down commie China does a better job than top-down federal US govt re that sort of quick brutal public health action.

        But the supposed advantage of our system is its decentralization and flexibility and such. What we are imo going to find is we no longer have that capability. Not because the feds killed it. But because we ABDICATED it. Instead of jealously guarding our ability to act locally – we got lazy and cheap and have found it much easier to just complain about what other people do. IDK what countries are going to do a better job of doing this in a decentralized non-commie way – but I suspect it will be – most.

        1. It has to do with understanding that government DOES have a role in public health.

          Yes it doesn’t surprise me that top-down commie China does a better job than top-down federal US govt re that sort of quick brutal public health action.

          It’s one thing to say that you “do a better job” of being brutal authoritarians and another thing to say that being brutal authoritarians “works better” than freedom.

          1. You will be surprised to learn that most people will not view that as an absolute.

            Is ‘freedom’ worth 10 million lives? How about Singapore style authoritarianism? Most people would put that in the ‘free’ category’ and it certainly isn’t the commie category.

            R’s and ancaps are just complete strawman-wrestling Manichean cartoons. The world is not complete evil and complete good. Uber-rationalist arguments are not proven wrong via a logical counterargument – but by pointing to the messy real world that is not as black-and-white as the world you cartoon idjits inhabit.

            1. Is ‘freedom’ worth 10 million lives?

              Nice logical fallacy there.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWhbUUE4ko

              How about Singapore style authoritarianism? Most people would put that in the ‘free’ category’ and it certainly isn’t the commie category.

              No, it’s not free at all. It’s authoritarian as hell. I don’t know, let’s call it fascist. I wouldn’t want to live there if that’s what you’re asking.

  13. Trump is as dead as a doornail. It’s not how badly he screwed this up. It’s his refusing to ever admit he’s been wrong.

    As we get closer to November, expect to see tons of video clips. My own favorite was him saying he’s happy because, if people can’t travel, they’ll spend more in America. Happy that people have dies, and many more will.

    Or keeping people on that cruise ship, to keep “his” numbers low.

    Or. “Windmills cause cancer,

    Or ….(endless)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcEnG7qxnLY

    1. As we get closer to November, expect to see tons of video clips.

      It’s too bad there aren’t any embarrassing video clips of Biden.

      1. How many deaths has Biden caused, Trumpster?

        1. what deaths has Trump caused none zero he has not prevented anyone form doing their job

          1. Obviously, you watch only Fox.

            There are many. The cruise ship I mentioned is the most blatant. 20 infected, one dead, Trump brags that he’s keeping America safe, despite 2,000 passengers scared shitless

            He also was major in delaying the test kits for nearly a month, then, just the other day, lying about how many test kits were then available — corrected by his own health leader, Said a vaccine would be soon — his own health chief said over a year.

            So sad to see your disregard for “sanctity of life.”

            Your turn. What has Biden done, even close to being as morally degenerate?

            (“Will Ron name ‘Obamacare?’ asks the Nolan libertarian.)

            1. Do you ever get tired of lying through your worthless teeth?

              https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-messaging.html

              “Mr. Azar on Saturday defended Mr. Trump’s phrasing, saying it reflected a recent shift by federal health agencies, which have loosened testing regulations. The C.D.C on Wednesday lifted all restrictions on testing for the coronavirus.

              Get an informed guide to the global outbreak with our daily coronavirus newsletter.

              “What the president said yesterday at the C.D.C., that is consistent with what the F.D.A. and the C.D.C. are saying, which is we as regulators, or as those shipping the test, are not restricting who can get tested,” Mr. Azar said. “We are leaving that to the professional judgment of doctors and public health officials.”

              Mr. Trump used “shorthand” to make that point, Mr. Azar said.

              “What he meant to say is we’re not in the way of that,” Mr. Azar said. “And he knows the numbers. We brief him daily.”

              1. 1) Has NOTHING to with the cruise ship!!!
                2) I said NOTHING about Trump’s phrasing,

                1. Listen, Hihn. If you aren’t going to add me to you list … how much more do I have to abuse you?

                  1. ******When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers.
                    -Socrates

                    “Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do.”
                    –Benjamin Franklin

                    “Complaining about a problem, without posing a solution, is whining.”
                    -Theodore Roosevelt

                    “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something”
                    Plato

                    “A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people’s business
                    -Eric Hoffer

                    “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”
                    H. L. Mencken, US editor (1880 – 1956)

                    NOW TELL US HOW YOUR HISSY FIT HAS ANYTHING T0 DO WITH WHAT YOU ASSAULTED ME FOR — THE CRUISE SHIP.
                    AND, BE SPECIFIC, HOW DID I CRITICIZE TRUMP’S PHRASING?

            2. So you wanted Trump to let everyone on board go out in public to infect more and kill more since thats what already happened with the previous cruise. you are stupid. How many people die from being qurantined vs how many will die without it

              1. Umm, all they passengers have been unloaded!. The ship went to a secure port, where they were escorted into separate quarantines, infected and non-infected.

                ***And you’re the guy who said … also Trump-like … the number of virus deaths ,,, in China, is ………………….TEN!

                https://reason.com/2020/03/11/how-government-red-tape-stymied-testing-and-made-the-coronavirus-epidemic-worse/#comment-8163049

                Even crazier

                .. you are stupid. How many people die from being qurantined vs how many will die without it

                I’m stupid but YOU say people die “from being quarantined,” 🙂

                In all of human history? …. ZERO!!!
                IT’S NOT THE QUARANTINE THAT KILLS,

                ***My turn: would YOU place infected and non-infected people …. in the same room? FOR WHAT PURPOSE WOULD YOU DO WHAT TRUMP DID?

                If it’s *me* who’s stupid … how did YOU fail to read that Trump kept over 2,000 people … on the same ship where 20 were infected, AND ONE DIED

                Again, more than ten died in China, Got it?

                1. You know what would be really meta, Hihn? If you sock puppets started pretending to be you.

                  Kill yourself.

                  1. Kill yourself.

                    Precious snowflake,

                    If you cannot stand having your ass kicked … on your EVERY provoked assault … why not just stop … YOU WHO SAID CHINA HAD ONLY TEN DEATHS FROM THE VIRUS

                    ON TOP OF BEING TOTALLY IGNORANT OF THAT CRUISE SHIP YOU ATTACKED ME FOR.

                    Go find some kittens and puppies to kick … more your level.

            3. As entertaining as this disagreement is without me, nobody seems to be answering this question you posed:

              “What has Biden done, even close to being as morally degenerate?”

              You’ve apparently forgotten Biden’s crime bills – yes, plural, there was more than one of them. The brutal consequence of them was many men, mostly Black and Hispanic, imprisoned longer than was appropriate due to enhanced and minimum sentencing provisions, plus the utter evil of “three strikes”. A basic sense of statistics should tell you that at least some of those sentences ended prematurely due to the deaths of prisoners who, under sane legislation, would not have lived out their last days in prison. And before you respond that they would have died at the about same time anyway, you should take a hard look at the outcomes of prison “healthcare” – if we can call it that, and I’m not sure we can (with apologies to Rowan Atkinson). Finally, I’m sure none of those deaths were due to violence that otherwise wouldn’t have ended their lives were they not imprisoned for so much longer than they should have been, right? Right?

              Finally, if needless death isn’t a requirement to answer your question, then go look up why Biden earned the moniker “The Senator from MBNA”.

              1. “What has Biden done, even close to being as morally degenerate?”

                You’ve apparently forgotten Biden’s crime bills – yes, plural, there was more than one of them.

                1) How many people died?
                2) One President vs the entire Congress?

                1. 1) I have never seen a study on that, but I’d like to. My claim wasn’t based on someone’s analysis of quantified data, but rather on simple likelihood. Naturally, that’s not supportable without some kind of published objective analysis, but I feel that I chose phrasing which appropriately reflected that limitation.

                  2) Not sure what your point is here. Biden convinced an entire congress, if you will, more than once, that his crime bills were good policy. Some members of congress, the subset who wear their jackboots on the inside, including both Ds and Rs, were more than happy to sign on. Others had to be convinced, cajoled, or indirectly bribed with the usual “horse trading”, enough of them in total to get his bills passed.

                  “What has Biden done, even close to being as morally degenerate?”

                  Convincing an entire congress (or at least enough of them to pass legislation) that egregious minimum sentences and “three strikes” were good policy that would serve our citizens well, definitely meets the bar of “close to being as morally degenerate”. However, to borrow an old Dennis Miller line he used to end his famous comedic rants on HBO, “That’s just my opinion – I could be wrong.”

                  HAND

        2. He almost killed Corn Pop, for crying out loud!

          1. So you disagree with somebody who “triggered” you?

          2. DAMN. That was posted as a reply to Colossal Douchebag, just below. It’s HE was was “triggered” because he disagreed with some other commenter.

            1. Can you orchestrate an entire convo between SQRLSY One and TheLibertyTruthTeller?

              1. No. Can you do that with Sevo?

        3. You are boring, and an asshole.

    2. The walls are closing in. Biden’s a shoo-in for 2020.

      1. Even Fox polling says he’d beat Trump.

      2. Biden’s a shoo-in for 2020.

        Well, he says he’s running for the U.S. Senate, so you might be right.

        1. Lol yeah, I don’t trust polls this early out. Especially since we haven’t seen what the Trump team will do to attach him.

  14. Not moving any goal posts. If testing doesn’t stop infections, then earlier testing … without all the evil “red tape” …. wouldn’t necessarily have stopped anyone from contracting the virus.

    Read the original article. I suspect, like most, you went straight to the comments.

    How does your foot taste?

    I could no longer reply to the chain!

    I read the article, thanks. Your argument that 100% of the people who may have been tested positive for the coronavirus (you know, if testing was available) would have listened to Donald Trump and gone to work to get better is more ridiculous than the idea that one or more people who tested positive would have self-quarantined and lessened the outbreak. It’s an assumption that I feel pretty comfortable Mr. Bailey can make.

    1. //Your argument that 100% of the people who may have been tested positive for the coronavirus (you know, if testing was available) would have listened to Donald Trump and gone to work to get better is more ridiculous than the idea that one or more people who tested positive would have self-quarantined and lessened the outbreak.//

      Set up a strawman, then knock it down. While you’re picking up the pieces, make sure to kill yourself.

      1. “…make sure to kill yourself.”

        Lacking ANY better, this is THE FINEST argument that you will get from Gasbag Blowhard!

        1. Put me on the list, please!

          http://libertyissues.com/reason2.htm

          Come on, Hihn! Please!

          1. Still not Hihn.

            1. Definitely Hihn.

              The same unmistakably retarded writing style.

              1. I’ve been here longer than you, and SQRLSY’s been here longer than that. He’s not Hihn. There are plenty of people here who post nonsensical shit, doesn’t mean they’re the same person.

                The same unmistakably retarded writing style.

                Not really, no.

            2. *snort*

              Still not Hihn.

              They BELEEB there is only one person on earth, who is
              1) A libertarian defending libertarian values on a libertarian web site.
              2) Who doesn’t worship Trump,

              ONE person ,…. but he posts under AT LEAST 60 or 70 socks (aliases) So, OF COURSE they screech “Hihn” on EVERYONE who says something embarrassing to their cult.

              Remember, these are mostly the same folks who swallowed the Birther Conspiracy! Trump had already programmed them for this.

              It’s like when many screech “LIBERAL” on anyone who doesn’t follow their agenda … with Holy Purity. For “the cause.”

              1. Or, that your dementia and drug use has addled what little remains of your brain.

              2. To be fair, you’re an absolute loon. But there’s no reason that there can’t be more than one loon in the comment section of a libertarian magazine.

          2. Wow. That’s some creepy shit.

            1. HUH? Rock-solid libertarian credentials, documented, is “some creepy shit” to you???

              We’ve been enraging your Authoritarian Right, for over 50 years … not JUST those on the right. Because:

              Left – Right = Zero
              We’ve never been either, like (now) the majority of Americans.

              1. Did you add me to the list or what?

  15. The FDA and the CDC are part of the Swamp. Both are filled with competent people and incompetent red tape.

    1. Red Tape? Is that the new term for cutting agency funding for 12 years?
      WOW…I’m stunned. What if we treated the military the same way you people treat science with your pro-crony-capitalist-spin on everything!!
      Ya know what why don’t we just outsource all nuclear operations to Blackwater, and put a CEO from the highest bidding company in charge of the big red button

  16. We hope an effective vaccine will be reached quickly
    ——————————-
    موقع موسوعتى

  17. “The New York Times reports in a terrific new article”

    Important if true – that is, the NYT having a teriffic new article.

    1. Hey, it isn’t easy to churn out quality content when your editors think 500,000,000 / 327,000,000 = 1,000,000.

    2. Many on the far right don’t know that NYT news division is impeccable … often contradicting the opinion side … just like Fox News

      The Times reported and described clearly, how the 2008 financial crisis was created by CLINTON. At the end, they reported that an economic slowdown could cause massive mortgage bailouts, like the 1980s

      On the “imperiled” middle class, they described their research which concluded the problem is ,… a lot fewer people in it. (The loss of manufacturing jobs, which Trump does not understand and cannot fix. Ditto for Cato)

  18. Aggressive initial early testing and quaranteeing would have slowed the spread, buying time for: spring to arrive, when the flu season is over; protective equipment to be bought and trained for; other supplies to be stockpiled without a “run” on them; intensive care units to be expanded, and quarantine centers to be established; Etc. IOW, smooth-out the “spike” in the critical cases so our infrastructure isn’t overwhelmed.

    JoNova at https://jonova.com.au has been arguing in this vein for months.

    1. Everyone who knows anything about this has been arguing we be PROACTIVE not REACTIVE since China started shutting down.
      But the apparatus of the State is controlled by reactionaries in both parties, who are as reactive in their politics as they are in the real world. They hate change more than they hate actually fixing problems or making things work.

  19. This may piss off the Trumpsters even worse than Bailey has!.

    <a href="https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/corona-virus-covid19-mortality-rate-going-to-get-worse-fauci-965623/"‘It’s Going to Get Worse’: Federal Disease Expert Warns Congress About Coronavirus

    Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, offered a clear-eyed assessment of the COVID-19 threat while testifying on Wednesday

    Though President Trump insisted on Tuesday that COVID-19 will “go away,” the government’s top expert on infectious diseases warned lawmakers on Wednesday that not only is the virus not going away anytime soon, the worst is yet to come.

    “I can say that we will see more cases and things will get worse than they are right now,” Dr. Anthony Fauci, who directs the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told Congress. “How much worse it will get will depend on our ability to do two things: to contain the influx of people who are infected coming from the outside, and the ability to contain and mitigate within our own country. But the bottom line is that it’s going to get worse.”

    Fauci may be the only person on earth who can say, with Trump at his shoulder, that Trump is wrong and NOT get fired! He does so constantly. Only twice with Trump there, that I’ve seen.

    He’s a total nerd, runs the federal agency that does the research and studies on infectious diseases. Seems to be the most respected health dude in Congress, by both parties. (Especially when the President has gone full rogue.)

    1. You make the mistake of thinking Trumpster can read.
      It’s a brain-virus. When you ask your family members to buy food and stock up and they say Trump will save us, only actually catching the virus will fix their broken mind.

      1. ^THIS

  20. GOV stymied private and academic development – No!! Never!!…

    I’d place 50-bucks on the fact the only thing the FDA, CDC and HHS does is stymie healthcare JUST as its been doing for over a 100-years. They’re the biggest cause of our “healthcare crisis”.

    What a great opportunity to just shut their UN-Constitutional competitive monopoly down.

    1. So the agency that’s been loosing funding for 12 years is the one to blame for the outbreak?
      I hope you try this theory with everything, maybe if we defund the military and then try to start a war that’ll work too

      1. You keep posting that “losing funding for 12 years” statement. From https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/democrats-misleading-coronavirus-claims/ :

        “The 2020 CDC operating plan shows an increase from 2019 of 7%, adjusted for inflation, according to the Trust for America’s Health.
        Overall, the group’s report says there has been a ‘chronic under-funding’ of the public health system in the U.S., but that began before Trump took office and has continued.”

        You can see from the same article that funding increased the prior fiscal year, too. The article is well-sourced with inline links.

        So, is that enough for you to stop posting this lie? There is no shortage of genuine criticisms of Trump. You’re not advancing your credibility by making shit up and then repeating it ad nauseum.

        1. Trump Cuts Off Reporters’ Mics During Coronavirus Press Conference

          At his coronavirus national emergency press conference, Trump cut off reporters’ microphones so that they couldn’t ask follow up questions.

          The strategy of cutting off microphones didn’t prevent PBS’s Yamiche Alcindor from triggering Trump by asking him about his decision to close down the White House Pandemic Office

          He shut down the pandemic office in 2018

          1. Those points are orthogonal to the repeated “losing funding for 12 years” assertion. As I wrote in my prior post, there are plenty of objectively valid criticisms of Trump and his administration. Your post raises different problems, so I think you would have better served your interests by starting a new thread, or at least adding to a thread where those concerns would have been on-point.

            1. Trump administration isn’t backing off proposed cuts to CDC budget
              In early February, the White House unveiled a budget that called for deep CDC cuts. Yesterday, the administration refused to back down.

              Those points are orthogonal to the repeated “losing funding for 12 years” assertion.

              Nice try, but I responded to THIS

              “The 2020 CDC operating plan

              Totally eliminating the Pandemic Office is more relevant to Covid-19.

              As is insisting on CDC funding cuts in this environment.

              1. “Nice try, but I responded to THIS”

                That’s off topic for this sub-thread, which is solely about the claim of “losing funding for 12 years”, and it takes very little capacity for reading comprehension to understand that. Furthermore, proposed cuts do not change the fact that that assertion is false, even if they were to go into effect, and it takes very little reasoning capacity to understand that.

                Also, you seriously picked out a single phrase – there’s no verb in the excerpt you quoted, so it’s not even a clause – for an off-topic response instead? Seriously? Nice try, but no banana.

      2. “loosing funding” is the hopeless cliche banner of government now isn’t it. Even after taking 1/3 (on average) of EVERYONE’S income, “We’re loosing funding” will be the slogan pasted on their gold plated empire.

  21. I don’t usually read comments on this site, just the articles. Today I decided to see what y’all had to say about the topic, which is an interesting one. Is the comment section always as worthless as this one? Don’t people have better things to do, like maybe watching informercials on TV? Sick stuff.

    1. Maybe I spoke too soon. I got frustrated by insult comment after insult comment back and forth. Then I started reading in a different place and there i did find some rational discussion and interesting entries. Sorry.

      1. Your later reading seems to have merely minimized the level of worthlessmess.

        Sadly, reason’s comments are highly infected with both the Alt-Right and the Authoritarian Right … both having evolved largely from the faux libertarian statist, Ron Paul.

        1. ^The well-known king of, “insult comment after insult comment”… Even when he’s not even arguing he’ll find some way of insulting.

          1. LOL How did you miss that Trump shut down the White House office on pandemics, in 2018?

            Or FORCED thousands of passengers to stay on that cruise ship … trapped with dozens of infected passengers … and he SAID he wanted to keep the numbers down. Re-election over human suffering and possible debt.

            CDC overruled him, sent the ship to a remote port, and the passengers left the ship, walking directly into quarantine/

            Trump Cuts Off Reporters’ Mics During Coronavirus Press Conference

            At his coronavirus national emergency press conference, Trump cut off reporters’ microphones so that they couldn’t ask follow up questions.

            The strategy of cutting off microphones didn’t prevent PBS’s Yamiche Alcindor from triggering Trump by asking him about his decision to close down the White House Pandemic Office

            He shut down the pandemic office in 2018

            Anything else?

      2. If you think this is bad, you would weep over what slashdot has become…

  22. This article does not include the most important piece of information: who was President when the bureaucrats at CDC and FDA who held up authorization of these coronavirus tests were appointed?

    If we don’t know who to blame, what’s the point?

    1. Who was President when
      1) They fucked up
      2) Following Trump’s demands

  23. Anybody notice a problem with the dates in the article???
    “On Feb. 4, 2020, the Secretary of HHS determined that there is a public health emergency and that circumstances exist justifying the authorization of emergency use of in vitro diagnostics for detection and/or diagnosis of the COVID-19 outbreak. Rapid detection of COVID-19 cases in the U.S. requires wide availability of diagnostic testing to control the emergence of a rapidly spreading, severe illness. The FDA has authorized one EUA for COVID-19 that is in use by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and some public health labs across the country.”

  24. Also, the lab testing requirements were part of the huge regulatory takeover of medicine by the Obama admin.

    1. (laughing) Obama did that on Airforce One, on a flight back to Kenya, for a birthday celebration in his homeland..

      But seriously, HHS was “taken over” by President Eisenhower, at the precise moment HHS was created. But Ike was not a damn foreign-born nigger. *sarc*

  25. President Donald Trump handed gift by Fabio Wajngarten, Brazilian press secretary with Covid-19

    President Bolsonaro of Brazil’s press secretary, who met and handed a gift to President Trump on Saturday, has tested positive for the coronavirus. Fabio Wajngarten was pictured standing next to Mr Trump at the president’s Mar-a-Lago resort …He gave Mr Trump a cap that had the slogan “Make Brazil Great Again”. Mr Trump was holding the cap that he had just been given … Later that evening Mr Wajngarten, 44, attended a party at the resort hosted by Kimberly Ann Guilfoyle, 51, who is working as a senior adviser for President Trump’s re-election campaign, and is the girlfriend of Donald Trump Jr, the president’s eldest son.

    The White House says Trump and Pence refuse to be tested.
    This leaves two possibilities.

    Likely: Trump and Pence will both be tested, but deny it.

    VERY remote: Nancy Pelosi, the first female President, now second in the line of succession to the Presidency

    Would Trump risk even death, to avoid admitting he ever made a mistake?

    1. Dear God wouldn’t that be nice?
      It’d be even better if the Republicans never recovered.

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  27. Perhaps a dozen Trumpsters have lied here, blatantly, about Bailey’s fine investigative reporting. They .by focusing on the wrong case … events a month earlier … a diversion.

    I’ll dumb it down. This is the relevant part of Ron’s reporting.
    1) Dr. Shu tested without government approval.
    2) She Discovered an infected teenager
    3) She alerted authorities, who closed down the kid’s school.
    4) She saved kids from infection and possible death … by DEFYING Trump’s CDC … and defying those guilty Trump supporters.

    Ron’s relevant paragraph.

    A frustrated Chu and her colleagues began testing on February 25 without government approval. They almost immediately detected a coronavirus infection in a local teenager WITH NO RECENT TRAVEL HISTORY. Chu warned local public health officials of her lab’s finding and the teenager’s school was closed as a precaution. The teen’s diagnosis strongly suggested that the disease had been circulating throughout the western part of Washington for weeks. We now know that that is likely true.

    How many more INFECTIONS AND DEATHS, if Shu had not DEFIED the federal government?.

    See the tragic irony. Trump was elected to “drain the swamp” … now his supporters DEFEND that swamp
    1) By lying
    2) And, like Trump, ranking his re-election above human life …. even the lives of schoolkids.

    How many of those Trumpsers are parents?

    I wish we had a MUCH better viable alternative than Biden. But even Satan himself could not be as tragic to the American Dream, and to our most sacred values.

  28. Of course, the demented open borders supporters would argue that not even the movement of two-legged biohazards should be curtailed…

    1. Who argued this? Reason.com? Who can you point to an article?

  29. “the CDC required that public health officials could only use the diagnostic test designed by the agency”

    It should also be noted this is a different test than the one the CDC used.

  30. Coronavirus: President Donald Trump handed gift by Fabio Wajngarten, Brazilian press secretary with Covid-19

    President Bolsonaro of Brazil’s press secretary, who met and handed a gift to President Trump on Saturday, has tested positive for the coronavirus. Fabio Wajngarten was pictured standing next to Mr Trump at the president’s Mar-a-Lago resort …He gave Mr Trump a cap that had the slogan “Make Brazil Great Again”. Mr Trump was holding the cap that he had just been given … Later that evening Mr Wajngarten, 44, attended a party at the resort hosted by Kimberly Ann Guilfoyle, 51, who is working as a senior adviser for President Trump’s re-election campaign, and is the girlfriend of Donald Trump Jr, the president’s eldest son.

    The White House says that Trump and Pence refuse to be tested.
    This leaves three possibilities.

    Likely: Trump and Pence will both be tested, but deny it.
    Or will be tested “because I would anyway'” (obvious lie)

    VERY remote: Nancy Pelosi, the first female President, now second in the line of succession to the Presidency

    Would Trump risk even death, to avoid admitting he ever made a mistake?

  31. What it seems everyone is missing on these posts except for a select few is that Governor Inslee had the ability to overide the CDC if he wanted to and allow Chu to do the testing. Governor Inslee in fact instructed the Health Dept of Washington State to agree with the CDC and not allow Chu to conduct the tests. Not until a a firefighter from Kirkland questions the uptick in increased calls to the nursing home did Inslee or the Washington State Health dept. become concerned that Covid-19 was active in Washington State. Should the Trump administration be blamed for this not exactly since it seems the CDC is not listening to the Trump administration and doing what they like. This is clearly evident when Trump specifically told them not to bring back any patients that tested positive for the virus from the cruise ship but they did anyway and did not tell the administration until the plane was already in the air. This put the existing patients at risk, along with the health care workers, and the military. Once the plane landed again the military and healthcare workers were not informed of the necessary steps to take to protect themselves and everyone else. Now could this be because the CDC was not allowed to visit China to see exactly what was going on and what steps needed to be taken to keep Covid-19 from spreading? perhaps. But, lets look at this from a more realistic perspective. How did the CDC perform when individuals came into the U.S. with Ebola? The failed miserably at the beginning because there was no clear direction. Same with the measles outbreaks, tuberculosis outbreaks and the flu pandemic in 2009. Since Trump was not in office in 2009, what does this tell everyone? It basically tells Americans that the individuals in the upper management have no clue as to how the agency should be run. Instead it is more like a season of survivor where you have everyone backstabbing and sabotage each other in hopes of either getting a raise or a promotion instead of working together for the good of the American people. It seems that the majority of the upper management needs to be applying for unemployment and hire individuals that actually are intelligent enough to put the American people ahead of their own personal ambitions, and this goes for Washington state bureaucrats also.

    1. I’d say the out-of-Constitutional-Scope of the federal government is the very root cause of every symptom you’ve described.

      There isn’t a Constitutional authority granting the federal government any power over healthcare. I’d like to think they have the power to prevent nation-to-nation spread but I have yet to find that one short of “invasion”.

      1. Actually the government along with the President and even congress has the authority to act if there is a crisis that is going to affect the United States or the population of the United States. The real issue is the liberals would rather have a pandemic of any kind instead of using steps to prevent them. If pandemics or outbreaks are prevented there is no need to authorize large amounts of spending which in turn employ government workers which again in turn is a large voting block for democrats. Tuberculosis, measles, chicken pox, even polio had all been eliminated in the United States, but because liberals want open borders and free travel everyone one of those diseases have reemerged in the United States to devastating consequences for those who were affected by them.

        1. Actually the government along with the President and even congress has the authority to act if there is a crisis that is going to affect the United States or the population of the United States. —

          I’d imagine so; but I’m really looking for the Constitutional power that grants that privilege to the federal government. I’d imagine the founders took into consideration an international spreadable disease at some point.

  32. There are 49 American fatalities so far and half of that came from a single nursing home. A handful people died after returning from various infection zones – Wuhan, Iran, Princess Diamond. An aggressive early testing covers would have covered 200,000 Americans at MOST (we’d be lucky to cover half that, in reality) and if we use Korea as a baseline, we’d have maybe 8,000 active cases and only 60 serious cases.

    The “more testing” scenario that exists in the minds of the usual crowd is something like every local hospital getting a test kit and opening their doors and saying “we’re here to serve you” with a smile. That’s not how testing is done in Asia. Korea locked down an entire city. China, Taiwan and Korea all use some kind of surveillance tech to track down individuals. China uses social rating, and if you bought cough medicine, your ass belongs to a quarantine zone within the day.

    Korea is doing a good job making tests more available to the general public (they relaxed their red tape on private sector, who is ramping up test kits) but since they test even mostly healthy people, that’s starting to result in unintended consequences. The UK is already winding down tests on healthy people.

    If you’re healthy, there’s really no need to get tested. I don’t see any doctor gong on tv to say “get tested now!”. They know what that can do to their hospital operation. Thing have to be done in a parameter.

    1. Educate yourself

      If you’re healthy, there’s really no need to get tested.

      The infection shows no symptoms for 14 days, which is HOW Trump screwed up so massively … and later caved, getting tested when he had no symptoms, reversing his press conference statement that unleashed another fire storm of ridicule.

      1. Actually that is a very ignorant answer. The young are actually more contagious and carry a higher concentration of the virus than someone who is over 40 years of age and shows symptoms studies have shown. This makes anyone under the age of 40 and showing no symptoms more dangerous to the rest of the population especially the elderly and those that have a compromised immune system. That is why the virus was able to infect vast amounts of the population in Wuhan because the young supposedly healthy infected healthcare workers passed it on to anyone that showed up at the hospitals, clinics and emergency rooms. The only country that has done a great job in containing it has been Taiwan.

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