Democrats Say Trump Is Responsible for Ukrainian Deaths. They're Wrong.

Impeachment managers in Trump's Senate trial have overplayed their hand by claiming that Ukrainians perished because he blocked aid from the country.


"Where were you on July 25th?" Rep. Jason Crow (D–Colo.) asked during Democrats' opening arguments in President Donald Trump's Senate trial. That's the day that Trump, having held up congressionally authorized military assistance to Ukraine, made his notorious phone call asking Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy for a "favor"—to have the foreign leader announce probes into Trump's political rivals. Also on July 25, impeachment manager Crow said, thousands of Ukrainians were risking life and limb in the fight against Russian aggression.

The natural conclusion, Crow claimed, is that Trump's decision to withhold aid cost lives. Thirteen Ukrainians died during the lapse in aid. Crow highlighted the fate of one in particular: Oleksander Markiv, who perished in battle in September.

Other impeachment managers echoed this critique several times over the course of the proceedings. But the idea gives the U.S. far too much credit for the security of Ukraine. It also undermines the case for impeachment, which rests comfortably on claims of corruption but buckles under apocalyptic anxieties around national security.

The U.S. routed $391 million in military aid to Ukraine in September. Of that figure, only $250 million was originally allotted from the Department of Defense; the other $141 million came from the State Department after the scandal broke in September. Such funds are generally intended to help Ukraine buy U.S. weapons, pay for some U.S. advisers to train their forces, and send officers to service academies in the United States. Emma Ashford, a research fellow at the Cato Institute, tells Reason that the assistance is intended "to reform the Ukrainian military in the long term," as opposed to aiding one-off skirmishes on the battlefield.

Congress had until September 30 to allot the funds and disburse them to Ukraine. While the country did not receive all of the money by then, delayed by the president's wheeling and dealing for political favors, that fact alone renders Crow's prime example moot. A death in September can hardly be blamed on Trump when, as it stands, he had the entire month to send the funds to Ukraine.

Several larger, more fundamental misconceptions are also at work here. Ashford mentions two. Foremost, there's the notion that military aid is akin to a water faucet, where "you turn it on and off like a tap [and] it makes a difference immediately" in combat. "That's just not the case at all," she says. Indeed, Laura Cooper, a Defense Department official, testified in November that the hole in aid did not correlate with a hole in military equipment in Ukraine.

The second problem, Ashford says, is "a lack of appreciation for the fact that this aid hasn't done a huge amount to improve the Ukrainian military." The most salient example of this might be the sale of Javelin anti-tank missiles to the country. The U.S. has stipulated that they must not be used in battle, rendering them purely symbolic. 

Meanwhile, acting as though Trump's actions in Ukraine were so powerful as to facilitate these deaths exaggerates the importance of the money the U.S. has been sending, and it implies that Ukraine has long received such aid. But that's simply not true: The U.S. routed its first lethal military aid package to the country in 2018, under Trump, after former President Barack Obama demurred at the opportunity. "The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do," Obama told The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg in 2016. 

The benefits of our security assistance are by no means certain. It would have been wiser still to focus on the facts: The president acted corruptly by attempting to pressure a foreign leader to help him secure his re-election. That's true whether or not the aid he temporarily withheld was doing any good.

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  1. Binion’s pathetic ass covering begins.

    1. Sarah Palin’s Buttplug to replace Binion as writer, any day now!

      Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!

      So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…

      Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:

      Hi Fantastically Talented Author:

      Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.

      At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.

      Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to .

      Thank You! -Reason Staff

      1. Sure Old Mex.

        1. What’s up with Squirrelly and ‘The Holy Grail’ film? He brings it up constantly.



        1. Please (PLEASE?!?!) send your resume, and another sample of your BRILLIANT writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to , oh BRILLIANT writer!!!

          1. Sure thing “Ghost of Richard Nixon” lololol

            1. Hes really fucking bad at parody. Or even understanding simple arguments.

              1. Agreed! In spades! Sarah Palin’s Buttplug (Version II, sad to say, a piss-poor imitation of Version I) is UTTERLY INCAPABLE of clever parody! And yes, even simple arguments about lamas v/s llamas v/s lllamas, too, go WAAAAY over shit-fer-brain’s 3-neuronal neural complex! (Don’t get me started on the German-language non-skills of Mary-Tulpa-“.”-Mary’s-Period-Satan-Velociraptor-Smegmoid-More-Names-Than-You-Can-Shake-A-Stick-At-Victim-of-Multiple-Personally-Sleazy-Oily-Greasy-Disorder-Misfit!)

                JesseAZ makes a stride forward in acknowledging reality! Yeah for JesseAZ! Maybe SOME day, JesseAZ will even develop a WEE tad of humility, and stop LYING his or her or its ass off!!!

                1. You are literally terrible at everything.

                  1. Certainly TERRIBLE at trying to stoop low enough, to JesseAZ’s level, to try and communicate to JesseAZ, the utter arrogance of being completely, totally unable to EVER admit error, in even the slightest way!

                    1. I see Hihn is taking the impending acquittal as psychotically as expected.

                  2. WJesse, he claims to have been an army officer too. Totally unbelievable. And I’ve seen some bad officers.

            2. He’s not “Ghost of Richard Nixon”, you dumbshit. You’ll cry all day long about how nobody should believe the House impeachment charges with no evidence, but you have no problem believing whatever shit you want to believe with no evidence. When it’s something you want to believe.

              1. You and the hag lost.
                Pay your mortgage, grow up and fuck off.

      3. More dumb shit.

        1. OK, then, THANKS for your more dumb shit!

          (How are the “smart pills” from under the rabbit pen working out for you?)

          1. OK aabbccddeeffhihnoldmexqqqz

            1. Youd think he could write at least one good comment with all the socks he uses.

              1. WHO do you think you’re kidding?!?! Sarah Palin’s Buttplug (Version II, sad to say, a piss-poor imitation of Version I) is UTTERLY INCAPABLE of writing good comments, in ANY form or fashion!

          2. Nobody’s eating shit but you freak.

            1. AND all of those who even briefly glance at your shitty, vacuous, meaningless posts!

              1. “shitty, vacuous, meaningless posts!”

                You’ve never written anything falling outside that criteria

  2. The natural conclusion, Crow claimed, is that Trump’s decision to withhold aid cost lives. Thirteen Ukrainians died during the lapse in aid.

    If they can’t possibly defend themselves without money from the US, they deserve to be eaten by Russia.

    1. Yes, and they were all named Vindman.

    2. Well we did agree to protect them in exchange for them giving up their nukes.

      1. Stupid bastards were stupid enough to believe us! And today, stupid bastards believe the lies of assholes like Trump and His New SCROTUS Appointee in the Wings, Wing-a-Ding JesseAZ!

        1. PS, the Mexicans will PAY for that wall, “I did NOT have sex with THAT WOMAN, Stormy Daniels”, we can pussy-grab ALL others AT WILL, and they will NEVER EVER think of pussy-grabbing us right back, and the Kurds in Northern Syria can TRUST in us, and ANY DAY NOW, the trade war will CONCLUSIVELY CONCLUDE in the USA’s favor (and there will be free trade for all), and ALL Mexicans (except for maybe a FEW good ones) are rapists, drug dealers, and unspeakable fiends, and My Big Beautiful Wall will be FLAWLESS, and I am going to (any day now) BALANCE THE BUDGET!

          1. Incoherent ramblings of a lunatic.

          2. I dont really care what you say, I’m just trying to do you, hihn, and the rest of your multiple personalities a favor…

            No one reads what you say, no matter what screen name you use. Your schtick is tired, your jokes are weak, and you keep falling back on month python because its all you’ve got.

            Also, you, hihn, rev, etc are all clearly the same bipolar person. Your references and piss poor attempt to emulate monty python-esque humor in your rants and ramblings is obvious. Sadly you’re not a whitty brit, but a whithered brat.

  3. Only a constant flow of taxpayer money can stop the deaths.
    Why do you hate Ukraine?

  4. Yeah, well, you know whose deaths Orange Hitler totally is responsible for? The passengers on the plane that got caught in the crossfire in Iran after he started World War 3.

    1. And Kobe

    2. Trump is a very lucky bastard.

  5. “”Impeachment managers in Trump’s Senate trial have overplayed their hand “”

    Could have left it at that.

    1. Could have said it last week.

  6. No one should be surprised. The rhetoric becomes more heated, the accusations uglier, the battle more acrimonious. I think it is clear to the House managers that they are about to lose their case. There will be no witnesses, and POTUS Trump will be acquitted.

    We the People will render final judgment in November 2020.

  7. Hey remember when Trump sold the Ukrainians arms that Obama had blocked for 8 years while they were literally being shelled by Russia?

    1. Pepperidge Farms remembers.

    2. And then stipulated that the arms cannot be used.

      1. Your F’gTDS ate your cite.

  8. The funds were released Sept. 11 Billy boy. No fact checkers at Reason it seems.

  9. Finally a narrative the impeachment managers have forwarded that Billy is swallowing whole-hog.

  10. Here’s my prediction. Trump wins the EC, but not the popular vote, again. The left will freak out and use the EC allowed an impeached president to win and that’s why it must be abolished.

    1. eh, I could see him winning the popular vote IF the Democrats don’t cheat at the polls at all. Considering the state of California though… that’s unlikely, to say the least.

      Frankly at this point with the way they’re frothing at the mouth, I’m more worried that someone’s gonna try to take a shot at him, or at his supporters in general. You know, to “stop the fascists”. It’s not helping that the Dems in congress are spewing bullshit that the next election won’t matter because Trump’s going to use Russian magic to cheat.

      1. Another incursion at Mar A Lago yesterday. So some are trying.

    2. Trump will likely win the popular vote too as millions of Black Americans will not be voting for Bernie Sanders.

      Not to mention 4,489,341 Americans voted for GayJay and the LP. That wont be happening this election and Libertarians like me will be voting for President Trump.

      1. And me. First time I won’t vote libertarian since I voted for Clinton when I was 18.

        1. My last non-libertarian vote was for Reagan. I was also 18. But I voted for Trump last time, not because I liked Trump, but because I hoped beyond hope that Sec. Clinton could be prevented from appointing SCOTUS nominees. Pretty much everything else was a very far distant 2nd. Can RBG hold on through another 4 years of Trump, if it comes to that?

          1. “…Can RBG hold on through another 4 years of Trump, if it comes to that?..”

            Pretty sure the real question is whether the stretcher bearers will be allowed in chamber.
            So long as that’s allowed, the Ds will keep a flat-lined corpse in there hooked to several machines and swear that Trump can’t do anything.
            The Ds are desperate beyond measure at this point.

    3. Fewer things about the EC make me happier than the fact that only a constitutional amendment can change it. By the time the dems have enough states and votes to do it, it will most likely be moot or the popular vote will be swinging in favor of another party.

      1. As soon as the popular vote starts to favor Republicans, the states in the Compact will immediately change their laws. Can you imagine California being forced by their own laws to put in all their EC votes for a Republican who wins a popular vote even though the Democrat candidate swept the state? The Democrats in the state would have a FIT…

        “The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC) is an agreement among a group of U.S. states and the District of Columbia to award all their electoral votes to whichever presidential candidate wins the overall popular vote in the 50 states and the District of Columbia. The compact is designed to ensure that the candidate who receives the most votes nationwide is elected president, and it would come into effect only when it would guarantee that outcome.[2][3] As of January 2020, it has been adopted by fifteen states and the District of Columbia. Together, they have 196 electoral votes, which is 36.4% of the Electoral College and 72.6% of the 270 votes needed to give the compact legal force.

        1. Can you imagine California being forced by their own laws to put in all their EC votes for a Republican who wins a popular vote even though the Democrat candidate swept the state? The Democrats in the state would have a FIT…

          At that point, they will file suit against their own law, claiming it is an unconstitutional direction to their electors. That’s the point the SC needs to hammer home yet another time you can’t change the rules after an election to change the results.

    4. Here’s my prediction. Bernie Sanders is going to win,
      And then ask the Cuban government for help in how to re-educate undesirables like all you fucking GOP buttholes who infest this place. Then, i’ll Be telling you guys to fuck off… you had your chance to exhibit one ounce of integrity when the chance came with regard to Dear Leader. Enjoy your gruel sandwich and travails in the permafrost tundra of Alaska where all you gun nuts belong.

      1. LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian
        January.31.2020 at 8:54 pm
        “Here’s my prediction…”

        Mine is that you’ll never grow up and pay your bills, scumbag.

        1. LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian couldn’t pay his bills, ’cause LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian had invested ALL his savings in Donald Trump’s real estate schemes. Then the Donald paid Himself too much salary, frittered away in too many Stormy Daniels encounters. So Donald declared bankruptcy, stole LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian’s investments, and LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian couldn’t pay his bills! All of this was the fault of LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian, for trusting the “good word” of “The Donald”.

          Next on the hit parade? The bankruptcy of the USA! Again, to be blamed on those who have trusted “The Donald”!

          Now Donald lusts after doing the same with the “good faith and credit” of the USA.
          Donald Trump’s Idea to Cut National Debt: Get Creditors to Accept Less

          1. You’re pretty fucking stupid. You do know you embarrass yourself every time you sling that kind of shit, right? And you damn sure were never in the military, in any capacity.

          2. They debt isn’t cancelled, which is unconstitutional. The creditors just decided to unilaterally change the interest rate they were expecting to -99%.

            There is no leverage since the government has to pay.

      2. We have the guns and make up the majority of the military. How do you think your side is going to enforce your wet dream?

          1. It does when someone’s claiming they’re going to throw you in a gulag.

            AmSoc will ironically end up being the first casualty once he finds out that “Operation Get Behind the Darkies” doesn’t work quite the way he expected.

        1. SQRLSY One
          February.1.2020 at 9:18 am
          “LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian couldn’t pay his bills, ’cause LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian had invested ALL his savings in Donald Trump’s real estate schemes…”
          You’re the same piece of shit who got ‘corrected’ for trying to equate commie-kid’s bailing on his obligations to Trump’s business bankruptcies.
          Are you so stupid you didn’t understand? So fucking victimized by TDS that you won’t under stand?
          Please fuck off and die where your smell won’t bother decent humans.

          1. So please invest all your savings in The Donald Incorporated, and see how well it works out for you! Please let us know!

      3. BTW, it’s telling that you hold up a thug-government famous for political prisoners and a 60 year history of impoverishing its ‘subjects’ as your ideal.
        I’m sure they’d welcome trash like you if you’d like to move there. Don’t worry about a mortgage; you won’t own any real estate.

        1. Waxing poetic over the joys of forced reeducation camps is a thing with Bernie supporterz.

      4. Is this an Anti-Trumpista or a bad parody of an Anti-Trumpista?
        Only Poe could tell you.
        Not the guy who posted Poe’s Law.
        Edgar Allan Poe who write “The System of Doctor Tarr and Professor Fether”.
        The original “inmates take over the asylum” story.

  11. Billy actually wrote a fair piece except for:

    While the country did not receive all of the money by then, delayed by the president’s wheeling and dealing for political favors, that fact alone renders Crow’s prime example moot.

    1. Sulllem almost wrote a decent piece too. Are they waking up to the smell of bullshit that the rest of us have been pointing out for awhile?

      1. Overplayed their TDS.

    2. Came to say the same they need more doses of TDS vaccine

  12. overplayed their hand by impeaching T

  13. Meh… just more ammo for the 55% of us who don’t want to be ruled by a fat plutocrat God-King. I see the silver lining in this fucking shitshow.

    1. “Meh… just more ammo for the 55% of us who don’t want to be ruled by a fat plutocrat God-King.”

      And scumbags like you are the ammo to tell us that the founders were oh, so wise to incorporate the EC in the Constitution.
      You lost, loser. Grow up.

    2. No, you’d much rather be ruled by an overbearing Karen in a fucking cardigan or pants suit.

      1. It’s a ‘Becky’

    3. How did you like the Dem Congress insisting in PPACA they had the authority under the Commerce Clause to regulate your economic decisions?

      Did that make you feel nice and cozy, like being wrapped in warm blankey and being cared for by mama Pelosi?

    4. “… us who don’t want to be ruled by a fat plutocrat God-King …”
      I for one also despise Michael Bloomberg,

  14. I have mentioned that the “national security” part of the impeachment accusation (first article) is fairly weak. Conflates the security of Ukraine with the security of the U. S., not explaining why aid to a non-ally is clearly tied to our national security.

    The House could have done as Binion suggested and left out the national-security rhetoric from their article of impeachment. But their TDS precluded such an option. Now they’re stuck with proving national-security (along with the rest of their dubious charge).

    1. “I have mentioned that the “national security” part of the impeachment accusation (first article) is fairly weak…”

      Yes you have, and it’s doubtful it was required. “Weak” doesn’t begin to define that lame assertion.

  15. Reason only says bad things about Deaf Leader. Therefore this article doesn’t exist.

    1. Dear. Stupid autocorrect.

      1. Hell even CNN’s legal analyst Jeff Toobin is admitting Trump is going to go down in history as winning this impeachment. Sometimes you can’t deny reality.

        1. And fucking Krugman even said the economy was doing well. He admitted it before reason did.

          1. Well fuck, now the economy’s certain to go in the shitter in the near future.

    2. What?

  16. Wait, what? Next you’ll be telling me that white supremacists aren’t responsible for all the gang-bangers in places like Chicago and Baltimore and Oakland shooting each other. Get outta here with that shit.

  17. Well, it seems they’re not going to call witnesses.

    While I’d love for this farce to be over, it would have been enlightening to call the three B’s – Bolton, Biden Sr. and Biden Jr.

    The Dems should have been given their chance to use Bolton to advance their “politics endangering the nat’l security” charge, much as I think it’s all bollocks.

    And seeing Hunter and his proud Dad squirming on the stand would have definitely had entertainment value. As well as actually being relevant, since Dad was the putative victim of this alleged conspiracy (which also harmed national security).

    Oh, well. I guess it’s back to business as usual for Congress. Hold on to your liberties. Don’t drop the soap.

    1. (the phrase in parentheses was sarcastic)

  18. All woke Progressives know that Trump is responsible for every bad thing that’s happened since whenever. WWII was surely his fault, and , even though he wasn’t born yet, WWI was due to his impending existence.

    1. I thought Trump served in the field artillery of the Bavarian army during WW1.

      1. You’re thinking of Monty Burns.

    2. In the zero-sum game of politics, where Solon and Solomon aren’t on the ballot, Trump seems a good choice compared to the others. But this is certainly not the same as saying he always follows the right policies.

      The way people with bad ideas freak out at him is kind of a good sign that maybe *his* ideas aren’t all bad.

      1. They see Trump as ‘unclean’, and thus their disgust at him is visceral. Much like the religious who see non co-religionists as unclean. See Islam for current examples.

        1. I see Trump as ‘unclean’, and thus my disgust at him is visceral. But I still voted for him, because his opponent was pure and simply evil. His opponent next time is likely to not be pure evil, but unhinged in dangerous ways almost all of which will demand further tax-slavery on my part, expecting me to keep paying more and more taxes to pay for their “free” handouts.

      2. “In the zero-sum game of politics, where Solon and Solomon aren’t on the ballot, Trump seems a good choice compared to the others. But this is certainly not the same as saying he always follows the right policies.”

        He’s a blowhard, a loose cannon, and probably obnoxious as hell in person. And probably wouldn’t recognize ‘libertarian principles’ if they were read to him by the hooker he’s pissing on (or was she pissing on him? the DNC lies are hard to follow). What’s more, I’ll probably vote for the Libertarian candidate, especially if it’s Starchild, since, as a CA resident, my vote counts only for ‘going on record’.
        But when it turned out he won, I was pleased, hoping at the least we’d be spared an RBG-clone as a SCOTUS justice. Turns out, we got way more, whether by design or accident:
        1) DeVos
        2) Gorsuch
        3) Kavanuagh
        4) Ajit Pai, end net price fixing
        5) Major reduction in the growth of regulations.
        6) Dow +35%
        7) Unemployment at 3.0% (!)
        8) The US Manufacturing Index soared to a 33 year high
        9) Got repeal of the national medical insurance mandate.
        10) Withdrawal from Paris climate agreement.
        11) Not sure about the tax reform; any “reform” that leaves me subisdizing Musk’s customers is not what I hoped for. Let Musk run a company for once. But cutting taxes is good.
        12) Pulled support for the $13 billion Hudson Tunnel project.
        13) More than 16,000 jobs have been cut from the federal leviathan
        14) MIGHT have a deal to de-nuke NK.
        15) Killed monbeam’s choo-choo
        16) Supported and signed First Step Act.
        And finally:
        17) Still making lefties steppin and fetchin like their pants is on fire and their asses are catchin’

        He blows it on spending and tariffs, but other than that, you gotta go back to Silent Cal to find his equal.

  19. “It would have been wiser still to focus on the facts: The president acted corruptly by attempting to pressure a foreign leader to help him secure his re-election”

    The corruption here is in Reason’s coverage

    1. Not quite the same thing, but who can forget this exchange?

      “This is my last election … After my election I have more flexibility,” Obama said, expressing confidence that he would win a second term.

      “I will transmit this information to Vladimir,” said Medvedev, Putin’s protégé and long considered number two in Moscow’s power structure.

      John Bolton, ambassador to the United Nations during the George W. Bush administration, called Obama’s comments a “fire bell in the night,” which signaled not only that Obama would scale back the missile defense program, but also that he might be planning to give ground on a range of national security priorities.

      “There’s huge cause for concern here,” Bolton said.

  20. “ to have the foreign leader announce probes into Trump’s political rivals.”

    So now it’s rivals? Who else besides Biden did he ask for? And is every democrat and libertarian politician in America his political rival or would that be more accurate after the nominations are secured?

  21. I make a big amount online work . How ??? Just u can done also with this site and u can do it Easily 2 step one is open link next is Click on Tech so u can done Easily now u can do it also here..>>> Click it here  

    1. You also get flagged, pimp.

  22. Correct me if I get this wrong. In a fair and Democratic election Ukraine elected a pro-Russian government. Barack Obama sent Hillary Clinton and Republican war hawk John McCain to the Ukraine. Immediately after those visits a Neo Nazi group backed by the US staged an uprising. Okay?
    I never understood this, the US supposedly believes in self determination, yet could not stand Ukraine wanting to be pro-Russian. Did the fact Joe Biden’s son and brother had interest in Ukrainian energy companies influence these decisions? Was the uprising to protect the Biden’s gravy train of money? Are the Biden’s responsible for the death of many Ukrainians and Russians. Did this uprising spark the invasion by Russia of the Crimea so stop US meddling? Seems to me the Biden’s, Obama and Hillary Clinton are responsible for those deaths, not Trump.

    1. Interesting hypothesis. Does it fit the timeline? I have trouble believing the Ukrainian people were particularly incensed at Hunter’s involvement or that they knew.

    2. Liberty Lover
      February.1.2020 at 5:40 am
      “Correct me if I get this wrong….”

      Too many conditional results; NWS.

  23. Binion: the facts: The president acted corruptly by attempting to pressure a foreign leader to help him secure his re-election.

    Why is it that Reason contributors cannot distinguish facts from their own interpretation of facts. I hope it is only a case of transient TDS and not permanent damage to the cause.

    It is indeed a fact that Trump asked Ukraine to investigate and take steps to clean up corruption. That we know from the transcript of the telephone call.

    Trump says the call was perfect, Binion says it was corrupt -both of those opinions are just that, opinions.

    The house managers insisted that the investigation into the Bidens was a sham since allegations of wrongdoing had been debunked, so that the supposed only possible reason to request such an investigation was for the president’s personal political gain. The president’s counsel stated that no such investigation had been done and so the “sham” claim was false, moreover that several other parties had thought an investigation was needed. The Dems could not present any evidence that the Bidens had been cleared by any authority, and their repeated insistence that there was no basis for an investigation into the Bidens does not explain away the, at very least, appearance of conflict of interest regarding VP Biden being the lead on Ukraine corruption in the previous administration while his son had a no show job paying millions over several years.

    In my opinion the president’ counsel got the better of the argument by far, but that just what reason dictates to me.

    Is it reasonable to accept the House managers’ claim of a sham without evidence of a thorough investigation by some authority?

    Is it reasonable to accept the House managers’ claim that there was no possible purpose to investigate the Bidens other than the president’s personal gain?

    Do the contributors here still believe that we can know the truth through reason, or have they joined the sophists?

    1. Senator Alexander here, and I beg to differ. He did do it for personal political gain. It was proven.

      1. The only possible reason Senator?

        How do you know exactly what other people are thinking at any instant let alone over the course of a few weeks?

        It wasn’t proven in the House or the Senate, but if I missed it, please let me know.

        1. Of course it was proven, or do you need REO Speedwagon to sing it again?

      2. Really, Mary? Got the transcript?

        1. Pretty sure that’s commie-kid, but I could be wrong. Brain-damaged in either case.

      3. What is missing in your statement is “solely” for personal political gain.

        My guess is that more than a few House Democrats who voted for impeachment did so in part for personal political gain as they wanted to keep their seats and maintain good graces with the party. I would say the same for Senate Democrats with regard to their vote for witnesses. But it would be foolish in the extreme to think that any one of them should be removed from office for standard politics.

        1. Politicians are not supposed to do something good IF it helps them polirically.

          If doing something good will also help them politically, they must avoid doing it to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest.

          That explains the Democrat Pary Platform.

          1. … politically …
            … Party …

  24. They over reached before that, Billy.

  25. In a related “overplayed their hand” vein, voting to not call witnesses in impeachment is *racist*?

    That’s what one NYT editor said…

    “I have to say, as somebody who grew up with a father who grew up in the Jim Crow South and in Jim Crow Detroit, a lot of what this has looked like from the Republican side, the kind of imagining and the farcical nature of this, the lack of good faith argument sounds very familiar to me, and it’s actually quite scary,” Gay said during an MSNBC panel. “I think we’re in a very scary moment.”

    1. Which haunted house music did they use as background scary music?

      I hate everybody – and I mean everybody – who played a part in this banana republic farce. Everyone wants to keep this ridiculous charade going. Ooooooo…..scareee.

    2. Come on, it was and is sexist, anti-trans, and cishet to the extreme. And continues to contribute to global warming climate change. Be afraid, be very afraid, in fact go full tilt boogie moral panick mode.

  26. One thing that irks me is when Democrats say Trump ‘invited foreign interference in our elections’ with regards to Zelensky.
    He asked the Ukrainians to finish an investigation of events which occurred in their country. He in turn was going to use that information to influence the election.
    It was wrong IMO but he did not solicit foreign interference.

  27. “The most salient example of this might be the sale of Javelin anti-tank missiles to the country. The U.S. has stipulated that they must not be used in battle, rendering them purely symbolic“

    But they…what???

    Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just sell them nerf guns?



    2. chemjeff radical individualist
      February.1.2020 at 7:08 pm

      Fuck off, you pathetic piece of shit.

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  31. It is not like temporarily withholding funds emptied the Ukrainian defense fund pipeline.
    It would have been a reduction in funds in the future pipeline.
    How that caused deaths in the present or recent past is hard for me to understand.

    The Democrats’ expressed desire for a war with Russia going back before the 2016 campaign may very well have provoked the Russian bear and may have already contributed to more deaths in Ukraine/Crimea than a recent hypothethical reduction in Ukrainian defense funds. BTW how well did the Democrats provide Ukrainian defense funds 2008-2016?

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  33. I absolutely believe the East German Party of Democratic Socialism is worried sick about Russia moving in on The Ukraine’s admittedly Libertarian President. I also believe The (I Like Libertarianism) Don was deliberately endangering Ukraine freedom. Along with the Virgin Birth, Resurrection of Lazarus, Parting of the Red Sea, Misanthropic Global Warming, and Water into Rum, I accept these things as Revealed Faith. So… why was Biden’s boy worth all that money? (I promise I’ll believe every reply)

  34. Since the Noncommunist Evil Empire took over Crimea, how many torture and atrocity stories have the looter media circulated about those poor Anschlussed bastards? Where are the Democratic Patsy mea culpas over Saint Obama letting America’s nuclear arsenal rot during that earlier Rape of The Ukraine?

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  38. TDS
    Rory Waite
    to me
    8 days agoDetails
    The Trump bootlickers are saying Trump derangement syndrome. That’s worse than calling Obama’s critics racist because for the most part that didn’t happen. Putting aside policy Obama acted and communicated like most other politicians. The only real difference was his skin color. A significant number of people claimed he was Muslim or Kenyan despite it being disproven. Trump communicates and acts different from most politicians as well as having a different background. That’s why some people support him. Whether you agree with him or not you must admit he appears and sounds different from most politicians. So is it more likely there’s Trump derangement syndrome or Obama derangement syndrome(some racist some not)? Seems anyone with a brain can see TDS is just Trumpets deflecting legit criticism, and some(not all) criticism of Obama was just racism. I’m sure no one will read or reply to this. I really don’t care what all the cousin fucking reason commenters care. They’re mostly rednecks or bigots and can f off.

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