Medicare for All

Elizabeth Warren Wants To Pay for Medicare for All With a $9 Trillion Tax That Will Hit the Middle Class

Warren says it’s not a tax. But what else would you call a requirement that employers send money to the federal government to finance a public program?

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For months, Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D—Mass.) has hedged on the question of whether she would raise middle class taxes to pay for Medicare for All, the single-payer health care plan she says she supports. Warren has stuck with a talking point about total costs, saying that the middle class would pay less, while critics, political rivals, and even liberal economists friendly to single payer have argued that the enormous additional government spending required by such a plan would inevitably hit the middle class.

Today, Warren released a plan to finance Medicare for All at a total price tag of nearly $52 trillion, including about $20 trillion of new government spending (an estimate that is probably low). Although her plan declares that no middle-class taxes will be necessary to finance the system, it includes what is effectively a new tax on employers that would undoubtedly hit middle-class Americans.

Today, American health care is financed by a mix of public and private payers. Under a single-payer system—what Warren and rival presidential hopeful Sen. Bernie Sanders (I–Vt.) call Medicare for All—virtually all health care spending would instead run through the federal government.

Right now, Warren's plan says, employers spend about $9 trillion a decade on health insurance coverage. Her plan aims to move the private spending onto the federal budget. Under her proposal, large employers who currently pay for health coverage would be required to pay a comparable amount (equivalent to 98 percent of what they pay now, adjusted for the number of workers they employ) in order to help finance Medicare for All.

Warren shies away from calling this a tax, and she even claims "we don't need to raise taxes on the middle class by one penny to finance Medicare for All." Instead, she refers to it as an employer Medicare contribution, under which companies "would send payments to the federal government for Medicare."

But there is a commonly accepted term for a plan that requires companies to send payments to the federal government in order to finance government programs. That word is tax. And that is essentially what this is—a nearly $9 trillion payroll tax (or, perhaps, a head tax with some small-business carve outs). It is thus hard to see this as anything other than a massive middle-class tax hike.

That is the argument that former Vice President Joe Biden, another Democratic presidential hopeful, is already making, with a campaign staffer responding to the release of her plan by saying, "For months, Elizabeth Warren has refused to say if her health care plan would raise taxes on the middle class, and now we know why: because it does. Senator Warren would place a new tax of nearly $9 trillion that will fall on American workers."

Warren and her defenders will likely try to shift the discussion back to total costs, but that's just a way of repeating the dodge that has dogged her campaign for much of the year. Warren will no doubt claim that costs would go down under her plan, but there are reasons to doubt this, including an analysis from health care economist Kenneth Thorpe finding that under a Sanders-style plan, more than 70 percent of people who currently have private insurance would see costs increase, as well as an Urban Institute analysis projecting that single-payer plans would raise national health care spending by $7 trillion over a decade.

Nor is this the only problem with her plan. As The Washington Post reports, "some analysts have warned that companies would have strong incentives, in the years before such a law's enactment, to make it appear their health-care costs are low. Businesses may be encouraged to split off into two entities, one of which might be able to avoid the required health-care contributions because it had none the year before the program kicked off." At minimum, the incentives and feedback effects of Warren's plan would be complex and difficult to predict.

Warren's plan includes other new taxes as well: a six percent tax on billionaires beyond the wealth tax she has already proposed, an increased tax on capital gains, and a 35 percent tax on corporate earnings earned overseas. She also proposes raising trillions in tax revenue through increased enforcement—far exceeding what mainstream experts have suggested is possible.

Indeed, much of Warren's plan is based on unlikely, and at times outright fantastical, assumptions about what sort of additional revenue could be raised, what health care costs could be contained, and what might be politically feasible. Among other things, she proposes raising $400 billion by passing comprehensive immigration reform, which, given the politics of immigration policy, is only a little more realistic than planning to pay off your mortgage by winning the lottery. The Washington Examiner's Philip Klein has published a useful roundup of Warren's less plausible ideas; the takeaway is that even if Warren somehow managed to raise the enormous amounts of tax she proposes, it probably would still not be anywhere close to enough to finance her plan. (More on this in a future post.)

In some ways, Warren's plan amounts to a list of technically sophisticated magic asterisks. It is as much an attempt to obscure the economic and political feasibility of passing and implementing a single-payer health care plan as a good-faith attempt to describe what it would practically require.

Yet in another way, it reveals something about both Warren and the economic reality of single-payer: Despite running a campaign based on wonky academic credentials and detail-oriented policy chops, Warren has, until now, repeatedly refused to directly answer questions about precisely how she would finance Medicare for All and whether she would foist new taxes on the middle class. Turns out she didn't dodge the question because the answer was complex or hard to explain. She dodged it because the answer was so simple it could be expressed in a single word: yes.

 

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  1. How about we ignore the crazy aunt’s plan that she would never implement even if elected and enjoy some great dogs instead.

    https://twitter.com/thejcoop/status/1190303156665798656

    1. If you want lower quality health care at a higher price then vote Democrat.

    2. Ryan is right. Medicare for all won’t work. What kind of FOOL would trust anything of value e.g. health care, to the feds, as the feds couldn’t find their asses with both hands, never mind “fix” health care.

      1. I don’t want the government option. I want the NO government option. No Medicare, No Obamacare just the freedom to buy what insurance I need with no restrictions and no interference.
        Just give me an opt out of Medicare and repeal Obamacare. For the liberals that say what you replace it with, when you remove a tumor you don’t replace it.

        1. It’s not a tumor!!

        2. YOUR “tumor” is believing you can overrule the Will of the People and Consent of the Governed by … snarling and bellowing … with NO clue how to replace what the people have been willing to pay for, for over a century …. when we still had a free market.
          Indigent healthcare (means the poor, Sluggo) has been covered, freely, by NON-PROFITS, since the 1500s. you drooling jackanape
          .

          Your brainwashing is SO thorough, that you have NO knowledge of how that free market worked, how its results and costs compare with today … how to restore it …. nor do you even give a shit.

          You’re an AUTHORITARIAN who screeches REPEAL … and are STUPID enough to think it’s LIBERALS who say it must be replaced … when it’s been LIBERTARIANS who KNOW HOW to … only since the 1980s. Until anti-gummint goobers destroyed fiscal conservatism. (Thank you, on Paul)

          YOU THINK LIBERALS WANT TO REPLACE GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE WITH PRIVATE HEALTH CARE. BWAAAAA HAAAA HAAAA

          The real problem is your SELF-PROCLAIMED MASSIVE IGNORANCE that we even HAD a free market in health care … let alone how it worked. DO YOU BELIEVE PEOPLE WERE DYING IN THE STREETS BEFORE FDR MANDATED THE CREATION OF FOR-PROFIT INSURERS? … and before LBJ created Medicare and Medicaid for the poor and elderly? HOW MANY MOONS CIRCLE YOUR PLANET?

          “I don’t give a shit what the people want … said every fuckkng dictator in the history of man.”

          The biggest threat to US Health care is … YOU …. enough of YOU willing to be brainwashed by the AUTHORITARIAN RIGHT, exploiting your authoritarian mentality, and contempt for individual liberty.

          Have you ALSO swallowed their CRAZED BULLSHIT that tax cuts don’t have to paid for because … “it means keeping more or my own money.?” …. are you THAT stupid also … to steal money from your own children and grandchildren, INCREASE THEIR TAXES AND DEBTS WITHOUT THEM HAVING Y VOTE ON IT?

          No, yout Authoritarian Right is just as morally despicable as the Authoritarian Left … BOTH manipulated tools of the political elites. … BOTH the swamp.

          YOU ARE AS SEVERE A THREAT TO MY LIBERTY … AND EVERYONE’S … as Bernie, Elizabeth, and The Donald.

          Just another bellowing blowhard … from TOTAL ignorance and CONTEMPT for individual liberty.

          Health care for human beings is NOT A TUMOR, you hateful fool. YES, you must explain and develop votes for replacing what we have now …. HOW FUCKING STUPID IS IT TO TELL THE POOR AND ELDERLY THAT YOU DON’T GIVE A SHIT HOW THEY GET HEALTHCARE ….. BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO MEET YOUR FASCISTS DEMANDS . … and LITERAL CONTEMPT for free-market solutions …. based on BLISSFUL IGNORANCE of free-market outcomes.

          “I don’t need no steeenkeeeng replacement … I don’t need no steenkeeng votes … Shut the fuck up … just bow down and french-kiss my royal ass.”

          YOU are why progressive have been kicking our ass for decades.
          YOU are why Trumptard made Obamacare popular .. then ever more popular … when voters saw you’re all selfish PIGS with NO concern for their care, or of their loved ones

          *** When all it takes … chump … is a 100% tax credit for all donations to rebuild the charity infrastructure destroyed by “free” government … transfer dollars back to the private from government … at the same pace as the rebuilding needs and proceeds. We call that a …. MARKET PRINCIPLE!
          **** THAT is what you’ve been brainwashed to oppose … VOTER CONTROL … vs CONTROl BY THE AUTHORITARIAN LEFT, OR BY YOUR AUTHORITARIAN RIGHT. YES … on the liberty scale, you are the EXACT equal to Bernie’s and Elizabeth’s cult of sheeple … witless puppets, dancing on a string, controlled by the political elites.

          Sucker.

  2. Good thing Pocohontas will never be President.

    Her plans are 1/1024 Lefty “good” intentions and the rest – horse shit.

    1. If Warren gets the Democratic nomination she will beat Drumpf (or any Republican) easily.

      And remember which of us has the superior prediction record, Captain “Red Wave.”

      1. Good thing Warren wont get the nomination, Private “Blue Wave”.

        1. Good thing Warren wont get the nomination,

          I’m not sure this is true although I think today’s announcement hurts her chances greatly.

        2. LC1789 … just lIke Trump …. invents whatever bullshit needed at the moment … with NO concern for truth, facts or moral integrity.

          EVEN FOX NEWS REPORTS — AGAIN — HOW CRAZED THEY BOTH ARE!

          Hillary Clinton leads Trump in a new Fox News poll. Yes, in November 2019.

          “A Fox News poll released Sunday did not have great news for President Trump. His approval rating was 42 percent, with 57 percent of registered voters disapproving of his job performance and 46 percent strongly disapproving. A year before the 2020 election, he is behind all of the top-tier Democrats, including former Vice President Joe Biden (51 percent to 39 percent), Sen. Elizabeth Warren (46 percent to 41 percent), and Sen. Bernie Sanders (49 percent to 41 percent). Even worse, Trump is losing to Hillary Clinton, who isn’t even running, 43 percent to 41 percent. …

          .(smirk, again)

      2. LIberal-Tarian

        Worst and most conflicted hyphenated word ever.

        1. Unless you mean the other kind of liberal.

    2. Hey, that much horse exhaust has far more value than her plans….. let’s get real here.

      Horse manure is a critical component in the casting of bronze bells…. doesn’t work without it. That alone makes meadow muffins more valuable than her nonsense.

      She’s gone mentally instable and dangerous. People liike that oughtn’t be allowed to roam about in public without a qualified custodian.

      1. What’s the GOP solution? (lol)

        “Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do.”
        –Benjamin Franklin

        “Complaining about a problem, without posing a solution, is whining.”
        -Theodore Roosevelt

        “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something”
        Plato

        “A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people’s business
        -Eric Hoffer

        “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”
        H. L. Mencken, US editor (1880 – 1956)

        1. “Complaining about a problem, without posing a solution, is whining.”

          Without posing a solution? Removing the federal government from any involvement in health insurance and healthcare delivery is the solution that has been posed repeatedly. Why is there no discussion of the primary plan flaw which is that the federal govt has never been granted authority do anything in the area of healthcare?

          1. Without posing a solution? Removing the federal government from any involvement in health insurance and healthcare delivery is the solution that has been posed repeatedly

            THAT’S NOT WHAT SOLUTION MEANS … NOT WHEN A LARGE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS ARE WILLING TO PAY HIGHER TAXES … IF IT PROVIDES THE SAME UNIVERSAL TREATMENT THEY HAVE WILLINGLY PAID FOR OVER A CENTURY.

            DO THE MATH. IF BERNIE AND ELIZABETH ARE THE ONLY ONES CLAIMING TO PROVIDE WHAT AMERICANS ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR … WHO WINS?

            A SOLUTION WOULD BE DOING IT BETTER AND CHEAPER … WHICH LIBERTARIANS HAVE DONE SINCE THE 1980s (until the current alt-right goobers).

            Since you have NO CLUE how to do it better/cheaper … and SNEER at even trying to … YOUR ILK is the biggest threat to individual liberty and free markets.

            Why is there no discussion of the primary plan flaw which is that the federal govt has never been granted authority do anything in the area of healthcare?

            I’ll add that to your ignorance of the topic. And your CONTEMPT for Will of the People and Consent of the Governed.

            P.S. The Constitution has been obsolete for two centuries.
            Disagree? Take it up with Thomas Jefferson who understood,
            a) Consent of the governed vs consent of the long-dead.
            b) A government of might, not of right.

            Takes more than memorized soundbites.

            1. Thank god we’re a republic where what the majority wants doesn’t matter.

              1. TYPICAL CONSERVATARD FUCKS UP a republic and majority votes with … THE CONSTITUTION!!!

                “governments obtain their just powers by ,… CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED,” (smirk)

                The constitution requires majority approval
                I’ll add that to your ignorance of the topic. And your CONTEMPT for Will of the People and Consent of the Governed.

                And THIS:

                P.S. The Constitution has been obsolete for two centuries.
                Disagree? Take it up with Thomas Jefferson who understood,
                a) Consent of the governed vs consent of the long-dead.
                b) A government of might, not of right.
                Takes more than memorized soundbites, by semi-literate goobers.

                =========

                WE are the governed. When did WE consent? What did Jefferson say?

                He was in France. The Constitutional Convention had begun. The Articles had failed. The mood was to create a perpetual constitution.

                Jefferson was PISSED.

                <blockquote The question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind another, seems never to have been started either on this or our side of the water. Yet it is a question of such consequences as not only to merit decision, but place also, among the fundamental principles of every government.

                "…no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs to the living generation. What does THAT mean?

                “Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.”

                Force? Yep.
                Conservatives piously defend, “What the founders intended.” Rule by the dead???
                Liberals know it’s obsolete but promote “a living constitution” … what THEY say.
                NONE DEFEND LIBERTY.

                Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.

                The question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind another …-I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self evident, “that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living”: that the dead have neither powers nor rights over it. … the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals … no generation can contract debts greater than may be paid during the course of it’s own existence.

                They derive these rights not from their predecessors, but from nature.

                On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation. They may manage it then, and what proceeds from it, as they please, during their usufruct. They are masters too of their own persons, and consequently may govern them as they please .

                This principle that the earth belongs to the living, and not to the dead, is of very extensive application and consequences.

                That means a new Constitutional Convention every 19-20 years. They MAY change nothing. But it must all be on the table.. The ONLY way to re-establish consent and … commitment.

                The founders got half of it right — difficult to amend. But it should be easily REPLACED ,.. at a fixed period of time.

                Else we retain consent on the long-dead.Progtards and conservatards love it
                Which is WHY God invented libertarians … who outnumber the other two COMBINED,.

        2. “What’s the GOP solution?”

          They don’t need one. Dems fucked it up. They can have fun fixing what they fucked up.

          1. “What’s the GOP solution?”

            They don’t need one. Dems fucked it up. They can have fun fixing what they fucked up.

            REPUBLICANS FUCKED IT UP
            YOU IGNORANT TROLL. Pay attention. I’ll go slowly and provide PROOF versus your brainwashing.

            1) Obama campaigned as a moderate on health care, in both the primaries and the general .. CRUSHED Hillary and John Edwards by OPPOSING a mandate … SMARTER THAN ANY CONSERVATIVE OR LIBERTARIAN. “If a mandate made sense, we could end homelessness by mandating everyone to buy a house.”: KAPOW.

            2) OPPOSED universal coverage, as NOT affordable until we FIRST reduce the COSTS of healthcare …. WHICH THE ORIGINAL OBAMACARE would have done, Sport. It was a BIPARTISAN package that included a PRIVATE alternative to a PUBLIC option.
            The PRIVATE alternative was endorsed on the far left OVER a government option (Daily Kos) and favored by the NY Times. So why did it fail? Ready?

            DUMFUCK REPUBLICANS REFUSED THE DEAL … PART OF McCONNELL’S CRAZY-ASS SCHEME TO DENY OBAMA A SECOND TERM. The worst of MANY health care fuckups by your puppetmasters. YOUR asshole party REJECTED a package that would have killed single-payer FOREVER … and forced Obama to seek his own far-left, which had been frozen out.

            Compare with Kennedy’s tax cuts, STRONGLY opposed by his far left and the AFL-CIO … but he didn’t need them, because he had REPUBLICAN VOTES.

            PROOF of the PRIVATE alternative is here.
            http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/health/policy/07coop.html?_r=1

            An HMO and a Co-Op. Modeled on Seattle’s Group Health Co-Op.
            Member owned. Doctors salaried employees of their patients. Their own pharmacy in every clinic. Their own hospitals. NO REIMBURSEMENTS … EVERYTHING PREPAID … AND CONSUMER CHOICE (GHC has a lower-cost competitor.)

            THAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE YOUR PUPPETMASTERS REJECTED.
            And YOU have NOTHING but slogans and bullshit manipulation.
            THIS IS TOO SERIOUS FOR YOUR BULLSHIT.

            PROOF that Obama campaigned as a moderate requires a Part 2 for a second link

          2. Part 2

            A campaign ad by … GARY JOHNSON. MANY video clips of Obama’s campaign appearances and debates … as a healthcare moderate.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpIM0vFbFck&NR=

            Your puppetmasters just got CRUSHED.
            Leave these matters to the adults in the room.

            1. I anxiously await the first fact you post, son. You have yet to do so.

              1. Hey, fuckstick EVERY fact Is linked to an original source.

                I PROVED you FULL OF SHIT … on who fucked up Obamacare.
                I PROVED you FULL OF SHIT …. that Obama campaigned, and was elected, as a health care moderate..

                AND JAMMED IT UP YOUR ASS ON WHO FUCKED IT UP (REPUBLICANS) ….,AND THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE … NONE AT ALL … FOR WHAT AMERICANS HAVE BEEN WILLING TO PAY FOR .. FOR OVER A CENTURY.

                SO, LIKE ALL TRUMPTARDS, YOU JUST SCREECH “FAKE NEWS” AND IGNORE PROVEN FACTS.

                WHAT A WHINY PUSSY … PROUD THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE NO SOLUTIONS AT ALL.

                1. Yeah, we all know no one fucked up healthcare prior to 2008. Props on the trolling. The “I’m going to call you ignorant while I say ignorant shit,” troll is one of the best.

                  1. Yeah, we all know no one fucked up healthcare prior to 2008.

                    COWARDLY DIVERSION.
                    ONLY Republicans REJECTED CERTAIN PASSAGE of a bill that would have killed single-payer forever … by REJECTING
                    1) the world’s lowest cost health care.
                    2) All providers controlled by patients
                    3) AND competition
                    4) ENTIRELY private
                    4) All of which Obama campaigned on.

                    Props on the trolling. The “I’m going to call you ignorant while I say ignorant shit,” troll is one of the best.

                    You would not have humiliated yourself, if you’d read WHERE I kicked HIS ass.
                    https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7995164

                    And now yours (smirk).

        3. In other words:

          “We have to do something. Warren’s plan is Something.”

          1. Republicans have NOTHING.

      2. “She’s gone mentally instable and dangerous.”

        You are right she does have her good side. Nonetheless that hairstyle just doesn’t work for her.

        “Forget the side-part honey, soften it up and let’s bring it below the ears. Bring in some bounce. Let your light shine. The rimless glasses, oh my, you poor thing. You come to my studio anytime. We get you fixed right up. Here I give you my phone number” (writes number on her hand with sharpie)

    3. “Good thing Pocohontas will never be President.”

      Isn’t that the same thing people were saying about Trump in 2015?

      1. The Trump who got the nomination with a mere 37% of the GOP votes — the same percentage as Birthers?

        The Trump that nearly 10 million voted against?

        The Trump that set a record high of “anti” votes — against Hillary NOT for him.

        The Trump that won the Electoral College by a MASSIVE 39,000 voters, in three states combined?

        The Trump that was boosted by Russia, Wikileaks and Comey?

        THAT Trump?

      2. “Good thing Pocohontas will never be President“

        No, but she got to be princess. What, not good enough for you? Six year old girls everywhere love Pocahontas. If six year old girls could vote she would be elected in a landslide.

        1. So would you.

    4. Her solution:
      Raise the minimum wage to $500/hr…that would make every full time (200hr/yr) employee a millionaire! Then she can tax them!

      *sigh*
      Probably some on the left believe that would work…

      1. Full-time is (200/8=) 25 days per year!!
        500 x 200 = 100,000!!!
        But WARREN is the doofus!!!!!

        *sigh*
        Probably many on the right swallowed your math, without question.

      2. A standard full time work year is 2,080 hours, not 200 hour.

        So 2,080 x $500 = $1,040,000

  3. She also wants a separate tax on financial transactions.

    1. Since this medical plan will save people money, is it not an investment, and are not those payments financial transactions? I think I see the taxes she has been reluctant to mention so far.

    2. That’s because she knows most people in the middle class won’t equate financial transactions with their pension funds and 401Ks.

      1. I tell you what, Gen Xers have probably accepted that Social Security will be a bankrupt pipe dream of Lefties by the time they retire. Fuck with their retirement in 401ks and it will be pitchforks and torches up in here.

        1. That’s the point – the fee on 401Ks will just be absorbed into the share price. They’ll never see it, unless the fund company decides to point it out to them.

          1. That’s the point – the fee on 401Ks will just be absorbed into the share price. They’ll never see it, unless the fund company decides to point it out to them.

            Why would you ever tax a person when you can tax a business and demonize the businesses when prices go up? Then even the consumers economic unhappiness helps your class warfare election branding.

            1. The California method.

          2. The financial transactions taxes will be a drag on investment returns. 401(k) participant workers might not “see” it recorded as a line item on their statements, but it will lower returns each year.

            1. That’s okay, they’re already talking about seizing individual retirement savings to finance pensions for everybody!

        2. Have I accepted? Of course I have. I’m not stupid. What I expect is regulations that will effectively end the 401k when Warren, et al, decide to come for the tax deferrals early.

        3. I’ll tell you what, righties have probably accepted the fact that Bush2 looted the income tax to “pay for” Medicare Prescriptions. That subsidy now takes over $300 BILLION per year … over 20% of the entire personal income tax!

          a) That’s nearly half of ALL Medicare spending.
          b) And nearly 3x the cost of Medicare Prescriptions, but they needed Democrat votes, and the Dems ROLLED them!

          The entire Medicare Trust Fund is LESS than $300 billion, so REPUBLICANS bailed out the “socialist” Medicare, which would have otherwise been bankrupt years ago!

          PLUS. the Bush tax cuts sent 85% of the dollars to taxpayers UNDER $250,000 gross income … who had been paying only 45% of the tax. Wealth redistribution, GOP style!

          Then, after Republicans added TRILLIONS of new debt to buy middle-class votes … they lost the White House and both houses of Congress!

          BUSH’s deficits inflate Obama’s and Trump’s deficits … and ALL future Presidents, until that subsidy is repealed. NO OTHER PRESIDENT HAS EVER CREATED PERMANENT DEBT.

          Allowing for that, Trump has added nearly as much new 8-year debt as Obama did AFTER 8 years (CBO 2024 forecast) … despite Obama handing Trump the longest recovery EVER for an incoming President … after Obama inherited the second worst economy since the 1930s.

          Being worse than OBAMA is nothing to brag about. DUH.

          Trump campaigned on PAYING OFF the entire debt in that same 8 years. AND YOU THINK DEMOCRATS ARE THE ONLY PROBLEM!!!!

          Trump also campaigned on a 60% tax cut for HIMSELF and a small sliver of the 1% … He’d have been a billionaire paying a top income tax rate of …. 15% … What’s YOUR marginal rate, sucker? Luckily Republicans REJECTED his looting, gave him a smaller tax cut … which he LIED was a tax INCREASE on himself! OMFG

          Left – Right = Zero.

          (Trump also LIED about who started the violence in Charlottesville … TO DEFEND NEO-NAZIS AND WHITE SUPREMACISTS, the ASSHOLE. But the topic here is fiscal … where Republicans are UNDENIABLY worse than even the “socialist” Dems.

    3. Remember, this is only one spending plan, and she has one for everything.

      1. And, I can’t recall a single one of them not costing dollars in the trillion(s) range, with a ‘T’.

        1. AS BAD AS TRUMP AND BUSH!

    4. She also wants a separate tax on financial transactions.

      Vic…That is the scary one, taxwise. There would be no end to the mischief Congress would do with a tax like that. It would be a game-change for Wall Street as well. And the accounting industry.

      I just don’t see how something drastic like that gets passed and signed into law.

      1. You think the sales tax is some sort of communist plot???
        Many on the right favor replacing the federal income tax with a national SALES tax … FUCKING STUPID, but many swear by the mis-named Fair Tax … a MASSIVE tax increase on the middle-class!!

        (The rich consume a small percentage of their income. The middle class consumes almost its ENTIRE income, including debt purchases.)

    5. that sounds a whole lot like the old Stamp Act that old George Three, England’s Kid King, imposed upon the colonies.. one more in a very LONG train of abuses said Lord High Master of Everything and Everyone foisted upon the COlonies.

      Well, he had to do it the hard way, but he finally learned the whiz dumb of such limitless nannified control. Instead of more and better, he ended up with…. not just am empty money poke but a huge debt into the bargain.
      Queen Pokey Haunches would soon enough learn the same lesson. But I believe WE the People have learned that lesson well enough from the other side to make sure this nutcase does not get elected.

      I really think it would be good if she won the nomination, though. Think how easy it will be to make her go down in flames…….

  4. “Warren’s plan includes other new taxes as well: a six percent tax on billionaires beyond the wealth tax she has already proposed”

    Believe me, as a Koch / Reason libertarian, I don’t like the idea of raising Charles Koch’s taxes any more than the rest of you. But look at the big picture. Our philosophy prioritizes #ImmigrationAboveAll. And President Warren would be far more likely to implement our open borders agenda than Orange Hitler.

    IOW, the economic boost provided by increased immigration should make a President Warren economy more billionaire-friendly than the high-tariff / low-immigration #DrumpfRecession has been.

    #VoteDemocratToHelpCharlesKoch

    1. Koch Industries is a private company and the Koch family’s wealth includes plenty of hard to value assets. Publicly traded stock is easy to value, as well as bonds and mutual funds that trade on the public markets.

    2. An open borders libertarian is a dying, soon to be non-libertarian libertarian. Which is why I don’t vote libertarian.

      Purism is for losers and children.

      1. And you are responding to a bad parody.

        1. His Authoritarian Right was never very bright.

      2. An open borders libertarian is a dying, soon to be non-libertarian libertarian. Which is why I don’t vote libertarian.

        Most of your authoritarian right spews the same nonsense.

        Pay attention.

        1) In the real world, over 60% of Americans SELF-define with libertarian values … fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

        2) The majority also opposes your fascism on immigration.,

        3) Do the math. It’s simple. That leaves less than 40% COMBINED. for the now-authoritarian right and left, which are both shrinking.

        Your time has expired.

      3. Purism is for losers and children.

        I admire your confession, loser.

        The REASON you don’t vote libertarian is that you are alt-right.
        We NEVER get votes from authoritarians who despise liberty
        .
        Over 60% of Americans self-identify with libertarian values — fiscally conservative and socially liberal … which leaves you sucking wind af at the very bottom of a nearly empty barrel.
        f

    3. Only a moron could think that importing tens of millions of low-IQ mestizos and Africans will improve America, either culturally or economically.

      1. Only a fucking bigot ,.. which you are PROUD to be … would say such blatant bullshit.

        hegemony
        [həˈjemənē, ˈhejəˌmōnē]
        NOUN
        leadership or dominance, especially by one country or social group over others.

        ALL HAIL WHITE NATIONALISTS
        (vomit)

  5. Redirecting the money that business pay for premiums to M4A is not a middle class you raise. Unless businesses go out of their way to actively screw their workers then the workers should not see any change. And also let’s remember that all other developed counties make universal coverage work, so there is no reason that we can’t either.

    1. “make universal coverage work” — that explains why so many people in those countries still go to private doctors and why so many Canadians cross the border for immediate treatment they’d have to wait a year for at home.

      1. As an example, the NHS is famous for working.

        Also, universal coverage for veterans here in the US is working.

        1. Nice use of sarcasm.

        2. The Veterans Affairs Hospital system does great work!
          -Dead Veteran on waiting list

          1. -Dead Veteran on waiting list

            Isn’t the whole point that they don’t have waiting lists?

          2. Reminds me of Betelgeuse in the afterlife waiting room holding number 9,998,383,750,000. *Now serving, #3*

        3. Most other countries also do NOT in fact have “single payer”.

          1. You are correct -and even among those that do, many of them allow for supplemental private insurance.

            1. “Allow for”. So magnanimous, big government.

              1. Unless you vote for Bernie. No acceptance there.

        4. Actually for all its shortcomings the NHS is very popular among Brits. Then again so is warm beer, Coldplay, and boiled meat.

          Bottom line in my opinion is like it or not the US is going to end up with some kind of berniecare eventually. I do not think that is a good thing but it will happen. What is going on now is unsustainable in the long run for patients and providers.

          As for Medicare and social security. Good luck kiddos. I am already planning to get out in the not too distant future. Maybe have a little umbrella stand by the beach in Destin selling cheap sunglasses and suntan lotion to the tourists. Close up shop at 5:00 and head to the beach bar to watch the pretty scenery walking by. A steady diet of rum, chilled shrimp and cigars should hasten my demise so wont cost you too much.

          Mess with my dream and I will kill every one of you snot nosed brats.

          1. “Mess with my dream and I will kill every one of you snot nosed brats.”

            Respect

            1. I remember the first time I lent my son my car when he was a teen. mustang GT, red leather interior, gunmetal gray, custom stereo with a subwoofer that took up half the trunk…

              He had a date. I reminded him “remember this son. I love that car more than you. If it were a choice I would keep the car. Understand?”

              Got the car back in one piece anyway.

              1. When I was a kid in the 90’s you were lucky to get 225hp out of a mustang gt. Now it’s 460. In a production car. Life is good.

                1. 760 in the new Shelby I read. That is just insane. And it is a street car with automatic transmission.

                  1. Warren will probably tax horsepower.

                2. So sad … all the pissing and moaning about Warren’s health plan .. when the right (including libertarians) has NOTHING. Nothing at all.

                  Over 60% of Americans would gladly pay higher taxes … IF it provided universal coverage … which we WILLINGLY paid for in the pre-Medicaid/Medicare free market.

                  Do the math. If ONLY Bernie and Elizabeth claim to provide what voters have always been willing to pay for … who loses?

                  (It doesn’t help to be so totally ignorant on the health care issue overall, especially on how free markets worked — umm, since the 1500s!)

          2. Bottom line in my opinion is like it or not the US is going to end up with some kind of berniecare eventually

            Unless the conservatives and libertarians pull their heads out of their asses.

            Americans have ALWAYS universal treatment … since long before Medicaid.

            A majority is willing to pay higher taxes, IF it will provide universal coverage.

            So … progressives are the ONLY ones claiming to provide what Americans have ALWAYS been willing to pay for. Which is why they’ve been kicking our ass for decades.

            THE greatest threat to individual liberty is … today’s fiscal conservatives. Pitiful.

          3. for the 29 M without any HC at all, NHS looks pretty good.

            4M kids have no insurance BTW. Texas has highest maternal death rate in civilized world. I got to think those dead mom’s wouldn’t mind a little CanadaCare.

            the question is: do we want to insure everyone, equitably , or are we happy with some folks having no HI?

            BTW, I sold my $10M company and the day after I did that, I had no health care. I was able to buy insurance because of ACA. At 61 I had plenty of pre-existing conditions.

            Come one day soon the 5th Circuit could repeal the ACA and I won’ t be able to buy insurance because of a melanomic cyst removed last year. I might die or I will have to pay cash until I turn 65. And of course I will postpone as much HC I can till I reach 65. Meaning the day after my b-day I will show up in the medicare roles sicker and more costly than if I had HI all along.

            1. “Come one day soon the 5th Circuit could repeal the ACA and I won’ t be able to buy insurance because of a melanomic cyst removed last year.”

              While sad, it FIRMLY falls down as “not my problem”. Why should I spend tons of money for you?

              “And of course I will postpone as much HC I can till I reach 65. Meaning the day after my b-day I will show up in the medicare roles sicker and more costly than if I had HI all along.”

              Are you looking for sympathy? Because I have zero reason to have any for you. If you cannot get insurance…there is a reason why you cannot.

              1. IS IT HIS FAULT? (sneer)

                1. It’s a real shame. It’s not MY problem. I’m not asking him to pay for my needs. I’d appreciate similar respect.

                  1. Called out, you RETRACT your bullshit!!
                    But add new bullshit.

              1. Your link is deceptive to anyone who doesn’t click it.
                It was never high at all. Over half the mortalities were caused by sloppy record keeping. .

    2. “also let’s remember that all other developed counties make universal coverage work, so there is no reason that we can’t either.”

      Yeah, that’s the point. All of those countries that “make universal coverage work” have a much higher tax burden on the middle class than we do. One example – the marginal tax rate on the Swedish equivalent of $50k per year is 53%. More than double what ours is.

      You can’t make the program work without much higher tax income, and that tax income has to come from the middle class because that’s where all the money is. Warren is lying to make her plan appear viable without that, but is isn’t.

      1. And add to that 53% income tax, the VAT on spending.
        They literally tax money coming and going.

        1. And those VAT rates are sky high — 20-25%, buried in every price so people forget how much of their purchases is tax. There’s a reason prices in VAT countries include the tax — governments don’t want people to be reminded at every purchase.

          1. While it’s true that taxes are included in the sticker price—which is really convenient for the shopper, to be honest—the receipt does have a line item that explicitly enumerates the amount of VAT paid. That’s how it works in Germany, anyway, and I imagine other countries have a similar system. You always know exactly how much tax you’ve paid.

      2. Most other countries also do NOT have “single payer”. Most have a mix of public and private insurance plus out of pocket expenses.

        1. Didn’t Canada have to allow private insurance because their single payer system violated human rights with the ridiculous waits required to make it work?

          1. “Canadians can purchase supplemental private coverage for services that are not covered by the public plan, but cannot purchase private insurance for basic services. “.
            https://thinkprogress.org/can-canadians-purchase-private-health-insurance-coverage-ed7a25f9c602/

    3. Businesses that provide health insurance deduct part of the cost from worker’s paychecks – so worker’s pay stubs will go from seeing a line item for their share of the premium to a larger number for a payroll tax. It’s not uncommon for employers to cap their share of the premium at 50% of the employee cost. If the employee wants their spouse and/or kids covered, that cost is often entirely deducted from their paychecks.

      1. Not a word of that is true. Sad.

    4. Wasn’t one of Warren’s talking points that we will see a bigger paycheck because our employers will no longer have to pay for our insurance, thus allowing them to give us a raise? Well that appears to have gone out the window.

      1. The employer payments would be lower … only 2%. but lower.

    5. Yes there is a reason. Most of those countries have 30 to 50 million people and very little tolerance for illegal immigration.

      Although, maybe a deal could be made. Illegals all go home, and in return all citizens can have crappy government health care. Whatcha think?

      Haha.

      1. The size of the population is TOTALLY useless here.
        As is your claim about immigration

        Haha

    6. What a stupid take. Even granted it is a one for one coverage swap dollar for dollar, you’re asking the people to pay the same but have no choice for paying the same.

      Fuck off asshole.

      1. Can you rephrase that in a way that is not TOTALLY moronic?

        You’re asking the people to pay the same but have no choice for paying the same.

        But it’s crackers to slip a rozzer, the dropsy in snide! Except on alternate Tuesdays.

    7. Well, given that all other developed nations make their universal coverage “work” (to be generous with the term) with hefty taxes on the middle class, the fact that Warren claims hers won’t require that should engender suspicion in even the most dedicated socialist.

      1. Educate yourself. Her hefty taxes are everywhere else.
        Granted, Reason’s coverage here is kinda lame,

  6. Quibbling over whether employers send that $9T to insurance companies or the feds is just quibbling.

    The real hypocrisy is threatening to fix big greedy monopolistic corporate bureaucracies by giving more power to the biggest greediest most bureaucratic monopoly of them all — government.

    1. It seems it would apply only to companies that currently pay for health insurance. Does it apply to labor unions that get money from employers to pay for health insurance or government agencies or Congress?

      What about companies that don’t pay much for health insurance do they get a free ride?

  7. Warren says it’s not a tax. But what else would you call a requirement that employers send money to the federal government to finance a public program?

    A voluntary participation fee, with severe civil and criminal penalties for those who don’t pay.

    1. . . . which the Supreme Court has ruled is a (wait for it!)
      TAX!

      1. If it walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck…it’s a tax.

  8. I would suggest that M4A is going on the great list of campaign promises never keep. You can stack it up next to closing Guantanamo Bay, and a border wall paid for by Mexico. Drafting a plan is on thing getting it supported is a whole different story.

    1. It’s two parties, each competing for their CRAZIEST extremes, because all the other voters are now independents, or lukewarm partisans. And this minority controls the primaries in both states.

  9. The bullshit about total costs being the same is the same bullshit about free college paying for itself, it’s collectivist bullshit. If government takes a thousand dollars from A and gives it to B, this is somehow cost-free because the total amount of money society has is still the same. It’s not society’s money, it’s A’s money. Taking a thousand dollars from me to help pay for your kid’s college doesn’t pay for itself just because your kid is now going to make a thousand dollars more because he has a college education. Taking my ten thousand-dollar insurance policy payment and your six thousand-dollar insurance policy payment and then giving us each an eight thousand-dollar insurance policy may keep total insurance payments the same, but expecting me to be fine with that is a bit much.

    1. “That does it! Here’s my plan to tax *privilege*!”

    2. You wish the math were that simple. They take $1k from you. It then gets laundered by the Fed. Joe down the street gets $600. That’s not enough so they take another $400 from you. Hope gets another $200, but that still isn’t enough, so back into your wallet they go. Apparently the social contact is enforced much like a persistent mugger that attacks on your way home everyday.

      1. No crazier than what Republicans do … just for different priorities.
        Of the most recent three Presidents, Republicans have been the WORST on debt.

  10. And I feel compelled to yet again point out that a wealth tax is otherwise known as eating the seed corn. Rich people don’t have Scrooge McDuck-style swimming vaults full of money and jewels and golden treasures, their wealth is invested in factories and businesses that employ people to produce things. To the extent that you’re going to take that investment money away from people with a proven track record of being able to invest that money wisely and give it crack whores standing in the middle of a crack store, you’re making a monstrously bad financial decision.

    1. If only there was a movie made back in the day, say in 1947, that explained this concept.

    2. I agree with your basic point, but I can imagine Warren saying something like this: most of Jeff Bezos’s wealth is in Amazon stock. When Amazon went public years ago, the money raised on the IPO was invested in a business that has indeed grown. The thing is, today, when Bezos sells some of his stock, he gets the proceeds – not Amazon. (He has in fact modest salary. Amazon’s biggest expense for Bezos is security – keeping him safe.) Warren will argue that taxing his personal stock holdings won’t interfere with Amazon’s plans to build more distribution centers, etc. (Not that I agree with this line of thinking – it’s just the B.S. I imagine her saying.)

      1. What it will do is force Bezos to sell a lot of his stock to pay the taxes. That causes the stock price to drop and reduces the ability of Amazon to borrow in the future for expansion. Furthermore, the stock will be bought by foreigners who won’t be subject to US wealth tax, and as a result, more and more of these companies will fall into foreign hands.

      2. How do you tax unsold stock? Just asking for information.

        1. Easy. Take the current price of stock and multiply by the tax rate.

          1. Now tell is how to do that on a tax return. 🙂

    3. thank you, it bears repeating, because these clowns never seem to understand.

    4. And with less productive investment we end up like Europe: low growth rates, and sky-high unemployment among those under 25. And no one can explain why.

    5. nope. their wealth in their stock holdings which increased about 23% after passage of tax reform wherein corps tax burden decreased by 50%. Corps keep more of their profit, so their stock is worth more. Government deficit went from $400B to $1B.

      Many libertarian and R’s thought deficit was a mortal sin and the ruination of this great nation. After they checked their 401K they sighed and forgot what they have bleated and blathered about for an entire generation.

      1. Government deficit went from $400B to $1B.

        Which, all by itself, confirms the wackiness of your entire comment!

        Many libertarian and R’s thought deficit was a mortal sin and the ruination of this great nation. After they checked their 401K they sighed and forgot what they have bleated and blathered about for an entire generation.

        That’s even crazier!
        Libertarians know the debt to their children FAR exceeds your delusional gains. One never sees what one refuses to see.

        Then we have Trumptards, who “forget” that Trump campaigned on PAYING OFF the entire debt in 8 years … instead, he has ALREADY added almost as much new 8-year debt than Obama did AFTER 8 years, per CBO 2024 forecast.

        And Obama inherited the 2nd worst economy since the 1930s … but handed Trump the longest recovery EVER for an incoming President!!!! This is FAILURE IN ALL CAPS BOLDFACE.

        But Obama was born in Kenya, Trump did NOT campaign on a 60% tax cut for … himself and a tiny slice of the 1%. Trump would have been a billionaire, paying a top tax rate of 15% –which even GOP control of BOTH houses REFUSED to pass. What’s YOUR marginal tax rate? (lol).

        Proof again, Trump’s bots are as brainwashed as Berniebots and Elizabethbots.

        P.S. Market gains are based on low interest rates!!!! Those 401Ks, et al, have … how much invested in bonds and other interest-bearing instruments?

        1. Correction — ALSO based on low interest rates … which is WHY Trump wants them at 0%.

          Economics be complicated.

    6. Except where their wealth is invested in the Cayman Islands. And coporate buy-backs to raise the stock prices.

      I think you’re mixing up small business owners (who create a lot of jobs) with the 0.1% who have over 50million or so. The big money guys don’t invest in proportion to their income.

  11. So – – – –
    same old bullshit.
    Yawn.
    Wake me up when the last man standing has been determined by the dems.

    1. last man standing?

      Not likely.

  12. People don’t understand that profits are the price we pay for efficiency. Proponents of government health care say that it will cost less because greedy insurance companies won’t be sucking away money that could be used for care, and spending it on profits for the greedy rich. What they fail to understand is that without those profits there will be incredibly wasteful inefficiencies, just as there are with everything else run by government. So in the end the rich people won’t see any nasty profits, but everyone else will see increased costs with worse results. But at least they won’t see rich people getting richer. And isn’t that the point?

    1. it’s hard to fight class warfare

    2. “…But at least they won’t see rich people getting richer. And isn’t that the point?”

      To every lefty whining about ‘income inequality’, it certainly is.
      Does not matter that everyone is becoming better-off; it only matters that some people are getting better-off more than others.
      The politics of envy.

      1. And resentment. It’s ugly.

    3. It’s more than efficiency that we get from profits. We get incentives. Incentives to not only be efficient, but also to add value. Government employees have no incentive to do anything that benefits the customer.

    4. I hear you on this. But, American health insurance hasn’t seemed efficient other than at fleecing.

      I’m wary of single payer, having lived in four countries with some form of national healthcare. In the UK, I used an NHS dentist. His fillings (actually, it was more than one dentist over the five years) kept falling out. One fell out yet again just before a vacation to Switzerland. I looked up a Swiss dentist in, literally, a mall. She replaced that and another filling for a reasonable price. Never again had problems with those two fillings.

      But now, in America, I pay ten thousand dollars a year for insurance with such high deductibles that it’s essentially just catastrophic coverage. And I read stories of people with coverage waking up from emergency care to discover that, while under, some doctors not in network worked on them (in an in network hospital), and they owe fifty thousand dollars to them. I have been seriously contemplating whether it’s worth spending a hundred thousand a decade on insurance that, if I need it for something big ticket, may not cover, or I’d be better off self insuring. (If I can’t be fixed for a couple hundred thousand, I’m guessing it’s all a bit Hail Mary anyway.)

      All while Mom’s Medicare seems to work. There’s a reason that the Sanders/Warren/etc rhetoric works. I think that those wanting to counter it need an answer of how to get a system that works. Posting in an echo chamber that it does, while increasing numbers conclude that it doesn’t (twice the cost for worse outcomes, several times the cost as Canada for a pill from the identical factory), probably ends with the country eventually plumping not just for national health care beyond the elderly and veterans, but also the rest of the Warren/Sanders/Ocasio-Cortez wish list. There may be a free market way that works, but this one isn’t convincing people that it does, and the right hasn’t offered many suggestions for fixes (though admittedly allowing insurance to be offered across state lines, and doctors to work in any state, or even any modern country, would possibly help a bit).

      1. In your list of fix suggestions, you forgot to include HSA from birth. This, coupled with a catastrophic insurance policy, pretty much takes care of the lot. The HSA would be used to pay private health providers, as it increases in balance through your life to cover your increased expenses in old age. Any money left over is yours, and passes to your family/beneficiaries when you die. The feds need not be involved.

        1. BSL1…Great concept, but the implementation will be tough.

          Who provides the initial seed money at birth? And how much?
          What happens when the HSA is depleted in the first 3 years of life?
          How is the HSA funded through life?
          How do naturalized Americans participate?

          This concept could apply to SSA as well.

          1. Catastrophic, as currently structured, is kinda dumb, being totally ignorant of the very purpose of insurance … more babble from today’s intellectually bankrupt right (as opposed to pro-liberty libertarians) … which is WHY so few choose it (if allowed most other alternatives)
            https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994633

    5. What we need to do is increase medical cost price transparency and break up medical services monopolies. Why should huge consolidated medical groups be able to jack up prices and increase your premiums?

  13. Warren released a plan to finance Medicare for All at a total price tag of nearly $52 trillion

    Serious question: What is this “total price”? Am I to understand that once the taxpayers have chipped in $52T the program will pay for itself?

    1. How much has she allocated for middle-level-bureaucrat-inefficiencies such as it’s-not-my-money?

      1. (yawn)

    2. Umm, $52 Trillion is the CURRENT forecast of TOTAL healthcare costs … by the CURRENT structure … over a next decade.

      Not your fault. Rich, but of the ignoramus you cited

  14. I know it’s difficult to accept that any of this could be possible but let’s not forget, Elizabeth Warren is a Wonk. Even among Top Men and Top Women the Wonks are super special. They are the Tippy Top.

    1. She’s indeed a wonk, and a very high IQ.
      But on health care, she is REALLY fucking stupid.
      Or a liar.
      On EVERY aspect.

  15. “such a plan would inevitably hit the middle class.”

    If the middle class want socialized medicine, it’s only fair that they pay for it, through taxes or otherwise. I don’t see why the lower class and upper class should be expected to foot the bill for a plan that would presumably benefit the middle class.

    1. Agreed.

      But that’s not very woke.

      1. The tone or the article would have it that the middle classes paying for a plan they approve of is some kind of unfairness or injustice.

        1. I think its more of “Warren has told us time and again that the middle class won’t have to pay anything, that the rich can pay for it all, and now she’s admitted she was lying”

          1. Yup, that’s the point. She’s been lying (like they all do) about what’s really necessary to pay for it. European welfare states don’t pay for it just by taxing the rich.

          2. Exactly.

            As I have pointed out before, You can only have Swedish levels of benefits if you are prepared to pay Swedish levels of taxation.

            Over twenty years ago the Swedes declared they were not ready to do that and the Swedish welfare sate was adjusted accordingly.

            What American leftists are demanding in a welfare state is something that absolutely no other country in the world provides.

            1. Here’s the point. It’s politically inevitable that we will have some kind of welfare state, it’s simple Christian* charity; everyone feels for the weak and vulnerable. Problem for the American left is that While “everyone” feels for “widows and orphans” they have a lot less sympathy for layabouts and bludgers.

              *Actually every major religion in the world has its own version of the “Golden Rule”. Islam is particularly adamant about it. Also, many early socialist in the British Empire and the USA were evangelical christians.

              1. the issue is not welfare, its that current policy doesn’t lift people out of the need for welfare, it just keeps them on it…and breeding

                .gov should stipulate women of child bearing age cannot receive public assistance without a trans dermal contraceptive. And screw it, tell men if they want to be on the dole they have to get snipped.

                we’d all but eliminate poverty (there will always be some) in a decade.

                1. ” its that current policy doesn’t lift people out of the need for welfare, it just keeps them on it…and breeding”

                  Castrate ourselves to wealth? Aside from the profoundly un libertarian implications of your suggestion, without economic growth people aren’t going to pull themselves out of poverty.

            2. “Over twenty years ago the Swedes declared they were not ready to do that and the Swedish welfare sate was adjusted accordingly.”

              I don’t know much about Sweden. Did they abandon socialized medicine and have taken up the American system? I know that in the UK and Canada, socialized medicine persisted for more than half a century, despite multiple opportunities of so called conservative parties to scrap it.

              1. No, the Swedes have not abolished the welfare state, they have made it less generous.

                Likewise the UK and Canadian health plans are not as generous as Americans seem to think they are.

                1. “Likewise the UK and Canadian health plans are not as generous as Americans seem to think they are.”

                  It’s true. They don’t cover rolfing, for example. But you are free to buy private insurance to meet your rolfing needs, as many Americans undoubtedly do. Despite these shortcomings, however, I’m not familiar with any country who has abandoned socialized medicine in favor of the American system despite its many advantages. Perhaps the USSR and eastern europe are the best examples.

                  1. I didn’t say that any have abandoned their systems so I not sure why you keep saying that as though you are contradicting anything I said.

                    If you had read what I said, you would have noted that I already had accepted the political reality of government health plans. It is the completely unrealistic expectations that both politicians and the public in the US seem to have that I find fault with.

                    For example, not only does Canadian medicare not cover rolfing, it doesn’t cover dental or vision. It only covers “approved” medical and surgical procedures. Dental and vision are either paid out of pocket, by private insurance or by various means-tested local or provincial government welfare systems.

                    Also, while it is true that no countries have abolished their systems, most of them do have parallel private medical systems which people can use and either pay for out of pocket or buy insurance for.

                    1. “I didn’t say that any have abandoned their systems”

                      I’m just curious how we explain this. The US system is unquestionably superior, yet, as you say, no other country has abandoned their inferior socialized system to adopt the US model, despite having more than ample opportunity to do so. I find it curious how we explain this. Or don’t explain it.

                    2. Let me put it thi wat, AMERICANS would never double their own taxes, for the “feel good” security of gummint health care.

        2. “The middle class” is an economic abstraction; it isn’t a political entity or a person and it can’t “approve” of anything.

          1. “and it can’t “approve” of anything”

            The point is that it can pay taxes.

          2. “The middle class” is an economic abstraction; it isn’t a political entity or a person and it can’t “approve” of anything

            AGAIN the dumbest goober on the board.

            THE MIDDLE-CLASS IS A SUBSET OF THE ELECTORATE … ONLY YOU COULD CONFUSE A DEFINED GROUP IF PEOPLE WITH A PERSON

            AND THEY VOTE! … WHICH MEANS CHOOSING TO APPROVE OR REJECT.

            IS MY NEIGHBORHOOD AN “ABSTRACTION?”
            OR A DEFINED GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS?
            (smirk)

        3. The middle class approves of it ONLY if they aren’t paying for it. Once tax hikes on them are mentioned, support craters.

          1. HOW MANY TIMES WILL YOU REPEAT THAT BULLSHIT?
            SEVERAL POLLS SHOW A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS WILLING TO PAY HIGHER TAXES … IF IT PROVIDED UNIVERSAL COVERAGE.

            If you weren’t so TOTALLY ignorant on ALL aspects of free-market health care … you’d know that Americans ALWAYS paid, willingly, for the uninsured, regardless of age or income, right up until Medicare/Medicaid.

            So … if Americans are willing to pay for universal care, Bernie and Elizabeth are the ONLY ones claiming to provide what people have ALWAYS wanted … and ALWAYS been willing to pay for … while YOUR TRIBE HAS NOTHING FREE MARKET …. AND WILL OF THE PEOPLE, who wins and who loses? (snort).

            (This is where the goober throws a hissy fit, like a whiny pussy, that never even addresses the issue. The Authoritarian Right)

            When he gets done whining and screeching. check the following link for the polls I mentioned. See what a lying sack of shit he is, with your own eyes!

            Google Search RESULTS for “polls higher taxes universal health care”.
            Pick your own source. Hell, pick several. TRUTH MATTERS
            (smirk)

            “Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do.”
            –Benjamin Franklin

            “Complaining about a problem, without posing a solution, is whining.”
            -Theodore Roosevelt

            “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something”
            Plato

            “A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people’s business
            -Eric Hoffer

            “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”
            H. L. Mencken, US editor (1880 – 1956)

            “Mass movements do not need a god, but they do need a devil. Hatred unifies the True Believers.”
            -Eric Hoffer, “The True Believers” (1951)

            “Throughout human history, the worst moral atrocities have been committed by those manipulated to BELIEVE they are defending some “greater good” — the Collective, the State, the Master Race, the Party or a God. Zealots and fanatics. The militant self-righteous.”
            -Me (1994)
            (Trump is the enabler of the alt-right, which was godfathered by Ron Paul).

    2. Exactly. They should pay for it. The problem with democrats is that they deceptively suggest to people that this will be ‘free’, and that someone else will pay for it.

      In other words, they lie

      1. “In other words, they lie”

        The upside is that they can be voted out of office.

        1. But once the lie becomes law, it is exceedingly difficult to kill it. Reason bitched about attempts to end ACA, after all.

      2. In other words, they lie

        Severe denial (yours) is a psychological affliction.

        The vast majority of polls say Americans WOULD pay higher taxes .. IF they provided the same universal coverage they ALWAYS paid for, in a free market … and here, the “defenders of free markets” have NOTHING for what voters have ALWAYS wanted and supported.

        Reciting memorized slogans … as programmed by the political elites … is WHY progressives have been kicking our ass for decades. The failure of TrumpCare, by GOP losers, is WHY Obamacare became more popular than ever. Voters saw that Republicans (and libertarians) have NOTHING to offer.

        Give it some more thought … and research OUTSIDE some deep tribal cave. Liberty NEEDS that.

    3. “If the middle class want socialized medicine, it’s only fair that they pay for it”

      That’s the point of the article. Warren is insisting that the middle class won’t have to suffer increased taxes to have this benefit. In fact, they’re going to SAVE money, according to her.

      She’s being dishonest (again), but nobody in the MSM will call her out on it.

      1. ” but nobody in the MSM will call her out on it.”

        I think the Washington Post, the Atlantic and the Boston Herald count as MSM, don’t you?

        1. Doesn’t matter, goobers.
          Despite the bullshit you’ve swallowed, the vast majority of polls show Americans would pay higher taxes … to provide universal coverage.

          They paid for it in a free market, before Medicare/Medicaid.
          The so-called “defenders of free markets” now have NOTHING market-based. And ONLY the progressives do.

          Have you also “forgotten” Will of the People and Consent of the Governed?

          1. I didn’t consent; that’s not my will. How does your last sentence apply to me, Hihn?

    4. If the middle class want socialized medicine, it’s only fair that they pay for it, through taxes or otherwise.

      “The middle class” doesn’t want anything; it’s a random grouping of people who meet some statistical criteria.

      1. And if happen to meet those criteria and don’t want it, then tough shit. They call that “things we do together”

      2. “The middle class” doesn’t want anything”

        They can still be hit with a $US 9 trillion tax bill.

      3. Even CRAZIER than his other version!!

        “The middle class” doesn’t want anything; it’s a random grouping of people who meet some statistical criteria

        VOTERS DON’T WANT ANYTHING!
        STATISTICAL CRITERIA means RANDOM!

        THIS IS WHY PROGRESSIVE HAVE BEEN KICKING OUR ASS ON HEALTH CAR ,… FOR DECADES

        A majority of voters would pay higher taxes .. IF it provided the same universal coverage we paid for in a free-market (pre-Medicare/Medicaid)
        And the “champions of free markets” have NO WAY TO DO WHAT HAD BEEN DONE FOR NEARLY A CENTURY!

        (Anti-gummint goobers have shouted down the pro-liberty libertarians, who STILL know how to do it, and have known since the 80s.)

  16. I guess Fauxcahontas forgot her faux championing of the Middle Class, as “liberals” are prone to do.

    1. Meh. The “middle class” is privileged anyway. The “championing” (pandering) has shifted to victim groups only. Now the real challenge is to shift more people from the middle class to “marginalized victims”.

      I’m hoping to get there myself someday so I can get free stuff from people who owe me somehow.

      Haha.

      1. TEISTAU Gree-Vance is wacko here … but not bat-shit crazy as he/she was here: https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7995436

        WHERE HE ALSO GIGGLED AFTER SMASHING A PIE INTO HIS OWN PUSS!!!

    2. I guess Fauxcahontas forgot her faux championing of the Middle Class, as “liberals” are prone to do.

      I guess fauxconservative FAILED to see that her bizarre financing structure does EXACTLY that …as conservatards are prone to do..

      SNEERING at LIBRULS … while offering NOTHING … is why they’re kicking our ass.

      YOU are a bigger threat to individual liberty than Elizabeth.
      WHINING IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE

      “Complaining about a problem, without posing a solution, is whining.”
      -Theodore Roosevelt

      “Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do.”
      –Benjamin Franklin

      “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something”
      Plato

  17. Employers might be spending $9 trillion over the next decade, but employees pay their share of the premiums too – they are deducted from their paychecks (pre-tax, the anti-free market tax code quirk responsible for many problems in our health care financing system). Has Warren explained that rather than seeing those premiums deducted from their checks, they’ll see increased payroll taxes? Also, what about workers that don’t have employer provided coverage? My wife has health insurance through her employer, and I’m a covered dependent. Our share of the premiums in the next year will be about $10,000.

    1. or how about us workers who like trading higher deductibles and copays for lower premiums?

      1. You want a CHOICE?! How gauche.

        1. i realize i need to check my privilege. of course i should not be afforded the luxury of managing my exposure to health care costs because there are others who cannot. what was i thinking! 😉

          1. appropriate level of contriteness detected – PC SWAT team has been recalled

    2. Employers who don’t provide coverage now will likely be hit with the tax also. Which is just fine for me, they have been freeloading off the system for too long but not paying for coverage.

      1. Must be nice. These same companies then are unable to give COL raises and have to cut hours, but it’s just the “freeloading” companies that will pay.

      2. Just to be clear, employers don’t pay for employee health insurance. Their customers do.

      3. “employers” like independent contractors, who already pay both sides of FICA and FUTA taxes.

      4. “…they have been freeloading off the system for too long but not paying for coverage.”

        Bullshit.
        Fuck off, slaver.

      5. “they have been freeloading off the system for too long but not paying for coverage.”

        What does that even mean?

  18. Also she admits it would lose about 2 Million jobs.

    1. Yeah, if Warren gets the nomination, this is going to be completely one-sided. Trump will have those 2 million votes automatically, the Dem investors have already said they won’t support Warren, hard stop, and a large chunk of the middle class who might otherwise vote Dem is gonna go with the choice that makes financial sense. That isn’t even taking into account the whole circus with the impeachment.

    2. Many of them will go work for the IRS to collect the 2 trillion she plans on collecting be increasing tax enforcement.

      1. She should have just said the other 18 trillion would come from cutting waste, fraud and abuse. Would have seemed less far-fetched than the garbage she put out this morning.

  19. I think some people look at Warren and think that she’s sitting there at a desk, crunching the numbers and making the plans work!

    Bullshit, she’s telling a group of policy-writing interns “hey, come up with a policy document that will conclude X can be done without impacting Y and Z.”

    It doesn’t matter if the policy document is realistic or factual, just that it exists and says the thing that Warren wants it to say.

  20. “Warren says it’s not a tax. But what else would you call a requirement that employers send money to the federal government to finance a public program?”

    Ask Roberts.

  21. It’s not the tax on the middle class that should worry her. It’s taxes on everyone below them, who previously paid nothing in anything other than social security contribution and sales tax.

    Obamacare cleverly saved them from having to pay anything by shifting most of them to state ran medicaid and exempting them from having to buy healthcare. And given the choice, most of them would rather go to medicaid rather than buy bronze plans.

    Half the country (this might be a conservative estimate) probably pays nothing in income tax. Nothing. And many of them get tax returns and welfare. Imagine these people having to pay 5 dollars a gallon of gas or VAT to sustain a nationalized healthcare, which is the reality in most of Europe and Canada. They’ll revolt.

    The cadillac tax, medical device tax, and employer tax were all incredibly unpopular. ANY tax on business to fund medicare for all will be hugely unpopular. The democrats are better off waiting out trump’s second term and pick someone who’s not a socialist loon, otherwise they’ll lose the house again.
    Canada is like right above us

  22. .
    Higher taxes on Working Class Americans, hundreds of THOUSANDS of jobs lost, stock market crash destroying millions of people’s retirement funds.

    I’ll pass. I’ll vote for Trump instead, and Keep America Great.

    .

    1. I’m hardly a fan of Trump, but unless Biden gets the democrat’s nomination, I’ll probably vote Trump instead of considering voting for the LP candidate. I currently live in Nevada which is a bluish purple swing state so I have some small role in preventing it locking in as a Democrat electoral college vote. The democrats now are quite literally communists and there are enough government miseducated useful idiots (especially among millennials) to actually buy into her economically suicidal ideas. Not saying that Obama wasn’t an outright communist, but during his reign the electorate wasn’t quite as stupid and he was at least smart enough to keep his marxist instincts at least somewhat in check instead of wearing them on his sleeve and governing accordingly.

      1. You’d choose a fascist over a socialist … while expressing profound ignorance of communism. Did you march in Charlottesville?

        And speaking of “useful idiots” …
        https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994483

        1. haha you’re a moron if you think Trump is a fascist.

          1. YOU are the moron, Woodchipper, if you swallowed Trump’s crazy bullshit that the “alt-left” initiated the violence in Charlottesville … TO DEFEND VIOLENT FASCISTS.

            And I have PROOF that YOU are the moron here! (sneer)

            PROOF: Trump’s totally shameless lie about Charlottesville, sucking up to white supremacists and neo-nazis. Bad enough that he said both sides were to blame. But he also went bat-shit crazy, saying the counter-protesters charged the nazis, swinging clubs. TOTAL psycho.

            Initial assault, Charlottesville– Nazis and white supremacists attacking ith clubs, against peaceful protesters
            “Alt-Left” standing peacefully, no visible clubs or bats.
            Alt-Right Fascists/Racists crash into them en masse, swinging clubs.
            Fascists are carrying the same shields as cops in riot gear. The motherfuckers CAME for violence.

            Next, PROOF Trump is a lying sack of shit

            1. Jesus, relax. Trump is a typical crooked, self serving unprincipled lying politician that puts reelection above all. Yes, he purposely appeals to xenophobes. Yes, he is taking advantage of nationalist and populist sentiment. Being a despicable human being and playing groups against each other is nothing unique to Trump. The only real thing new about him as opposed to other politicians is that he doesn’t even try to hide his scumminess, which honestly is kind of refreshing. But he isn’t a free market hating, the government should control absolutely everything communist like modern day democrats.
              If we have a real economic collapse or hyperinflation, nobody is gonna care about the few, statistically insignificant isolated pockets of hate crimes, vaping laws, over the top paranoid immigration laws or other issues that affect only small parts of the population. Although Trump will hardly balance the budget or pay off the country’s debt, he won’t accelerate the US over the fiscal cliff to warp speed or triple taxes unlike what the democrats want. And yes, I would rather have a politician that lies without shame and appeals to some of the nastier groups of the electorate than an economically ignorant communist (or a socialist if you prefer the lighter sounding branding).

              1. Jesus, relax.

                Now you’re BEGGING FOR IT!!!

                But he isn’t a free market hating, the government should control absolutely everything communist like modern day democrats

                NEVER throw that shit at a libertarian.

                Inside your brainwashed partisan cave resides a mountain of tribal brainwashing and ignorance. On debt alone, Republicans are MUCH worse than those commie Democrats. Allow me to educate you.

                1) Trump has ALREADY added (very close to) the same new 8-year debt (CBO forecast for 2024) as Obama added AFTER 8 years! HOLY FUCKING CHRIST, Obama inherited the second worst economy since the 1930s … and left Trump the LONGEST RECOVERY EVER for an incoming President …. AND TRUMP CAMPAIGNED ON PAYING OFF THE ENTIRE DEBT IN THAT SAME 8 YEARS!

                2) IT WAS REPUBLICANS WHO FUCKED UP OBAMACARE, BY REFUSING A BIPARTISAN OFFER THAT WOULD HAVE KILLED SINGLE-PAYER FOREVER! CO-OP HMOS — DOCTORS AS SALARIED EMPLOYEES OF THEIR PATIENTS — THEIR OWN PHARMACY IN EVERY CLINIC — AND THEIR OWN HOSPITALS … EVERYTHING PREPAID, NO CLAIMS PROCESSING … CHEAPER THAN ANY GOVERNMENT PLAN ON EARTH .,… ENDORSED BY DAILY KOS, THE FURTHEST LEFT WEBSITE, AS A PRIVATE ALTERNATIVE TO A PUBLIC OPTION!!! (NON-PROFIT AND MEMBER CONTROLLED) THE MODEL WAS SEATTLE’S GROUP HEALTH CO-OP, FOUNDED JUST AFTER WWII, ROUGHLY 700,000 MEMBERS (I WAS ONE FOR 17 YEARS). AND A DIRECT COMPETITOR … EVER HEAR OF CONSUMER CHOICE?

                TELL ME, SNOWFLAKE, WERE YOU DELIGHTED WHEN MCCONNELL SAID HIS PRIORITY WAS TO DENY OBAMA A SECOND TERM? …. BY FUCKING THE ENTIRE HEALTH CARE MARKET?? … BY REFUSING TO KILL SINGLE-PAYER????

                KENNEDY’S TAX CUTS (COPIED LATER BY REAGAN) WERE STRONGLY OPPOSED BY THE AFL-CIO AND HIS FAR LEFT, AS “TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH.” BUT …. KENNEDY COULD IGNORE HIS FAR LEFT, BECAUSE HE HAD GOP VOTES. OBAMA TRIED THE SAME THING … RAN AS A MODERATE ON HEALTH CARE, OPPOSED A MANDATE, SAID WE COULD NOT AFFORD UNIVERSAL COVERAGE UNTIL WE REDUCED THE COSTS … WHICH THE CO-OPS WOULD HAVE DONE!!! BUT THIS TIME THE REPUBLICANS FUCKED THEMSELVES IN THEIR OWN ASS

                Obamacare was known for all the backroom deals to put it together (if you aren’t old enough to know that). The very LAST deal was the “Rockefeller Democrats” — the farthest left — AFTER the GOP’s monumental fuckup..

                3) NOW LEARN ABOUT BUSH2. Medicare Prescriptions were “paid for” by LOOTING THE INCOME TAX!! Nearly half of ALL Medicare is paid by the personal income tax! Over $300 billion per year … over 20% of the ENTIRE personal income tax! The ENTIRE Medicare Trust Fund is less than $300B! And prescriptions are only about 1/3 of the subsidy, GOP needed Democrat votes AND GOT FUCKING ROLLED. REPUBLICANS bailed out “socialist” Medicare!!

                4) THE BUSH TAX CUTS!!! 85% of the dollars went to taxpayers UNDER $200,000 … who were paying only 45% of the tax … WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION, GOP STYLE!

                DO THE MATH. BUSH2 REPUBLICANS BORROWED TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS … TO BUY MIDDLE-CLASS VOTES … AND LOST THE WHITE HOUSE AND BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS!

                Clarify, The co-ops got totally fucked up by the fiscal right, ESPECIALLY REASON!! They went ape-shit with joy, when the INSURANCE CO-OPS failed … but AGAIN missed the fucking story. The original co-ops were PROVIDER co-ops, NO insurance! And here’s the PROOF of THIS fuckup by the libertarian establishment. Even worse than the tripe on this page.

                http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/health/policy/07coop.html
                Let that sunk in. A PRIVATE alternative to the public option … endorsed at Daily Kos … positively reported by the New York Times … AND YOUR GOP TOTALLY FUCKED IT UP …. because Obama would have got credit .. a fucking kindergarten!.

                Jesus, relax

                Jesus, THINK!
                You poor dear, precious, manipulated, snowflake.

                Anything else?

                1. Yeah, you seem to ignore that democrats in Congress voted for TARP.

                  1. SNEAKYVIC. (JUST ONE OF) KING OF THE TRIBAL BULLSHTTERS USED VERBAL SLEIGHT-OF-HAND TO BURY THE TRUTH …AGAIN …. THAT TARP WAS DUBYA’S INVENTION … BUT THAT DOESN’T MATTER, HE SAYS. BECAUSE DEMOCRATS VOTED FOR IT TOO.

                    THAT is how stoopid they think YOU are.

                    MANY DEMS ALSO VOTED FOR THE REAGAN TAX CUTS, INCLUDING TED KENNEDY (THEY WERE THE EXACT DUPE HIS BROTHER’S. Point being, one need not be a fiscal asshgole to get Democrat votes.

                    SneakyVic also specializes in cowardly diversions. Which is why he IGNORED the rest.. (summarized here, details and sources in the original.

                    1) Trump has ALREADY added (very close to) the same new 8-year debt (CBO forecast for 2024) as Obama added AFTER 8 years!

                    2) IT WAS REPUBLICANS WHO FUCKED UP OBAMACARE, BY REFUSING A BIPARTISAN OFFER THAT WOULD HAVE KILLED SINGLE-PAYER FOREVER!

                    3) BUSH2. Medicare Prescriptions were “paid for” by LOOTING THE INCOME TAX!! Nearly half of ALL Medicare is paid by the personal income tax! …. prescriptions are only about 1/3 of the subsidy, but GOP needed Democrat votes AND GOT FUCKING ROLLED. REPUBLICANS bailed out “socialist” Medicare!!

                    4) THE BUSH TAX CUTS!!! 85% of the dollars went to taxpayers UNDER $200,000 … who were paying only 45% of the tax … WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION, GOP STYLE!

                    DO THE MATH. BUSH2 REPUBLICANS BORROWED TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS … TO BUY MIDDLE-CLASS VOTES … AND LOST THE WHITE HOUSE AND BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS!

                    Will we see MORE bullyshit from SneakyVic?

                    (this is just one of many posts. for those — libertarians and/or independents — not all,, just who care about facts and think for themselves … not mindless tribal puppets, programmed by the political elites, because subservience to power is easier than the efforts (and mostly discipline) of self-education.

                    Still true: Left – Right = Zero
                    Thankfully, both are now dying off, rejected by a growing majority.

              2. And yes, I would rather have a politician that lies without shame and appeals to some of the nastier groups of the electorate than an economically ignorant communist (or a socialist if you prefer the lighter sounding branding).

                You know, there IS an option to choose neither one of those.

                1. Well, the sad reality is a libertarian or any other 3rd party has 0 chance of getting elected. I voted libertarian the past several elections. I used to live in Texas which was solidly red, but now I live in a bluish purple swing state of Nevada, so there is a minor chance of affecting the vote.
                  With how absurdly left economically the democrats have become, if they win and get a chance to implement any of their absurdly costly and outrageously statist plans (medicare for all, green new deal, student loan forgiveness, etc…) the cost to the economy, the tax rates, the debt and what it will do to entrepreneurship will be very steep.
                  Having lived in Texas for a decade I can tell you that republicans are hypocrites and their free market credentials are hardly great. But I also lived in California until I was 26 and without a doubt the democrats are far far worse.

              3. You’ll learn it’s best to just mock him and not attempt to actually discuss anything. He has his canned bullshit and that is ALL he has.

          2. Part 2

            The actual video …Trump’s own voice … stating a PROVEN lie… as the snotty punk he is.

            “What about the alt left that came charging at, as you say, at the alt right? Do they have any assemblage of guilt? What about the fact that they came charging with clubs in their hands swinging clubs? Do they have any problem? I think they do.”

            Trump lied … shamelessly — to defend Nazi and racist assaults.
            Alt-left initiated violence. PROOF: Alt-right
            Wearing black helmets. PROOF: Alt-right.
            Charged with clubs PROOF: Alt-right
            Trump saw it personally on TV! PROOF: Obama born in Kenya. (snort)

          3. Part 3

            4 men charged in violent Charlottesville rally described as ‘serial rioters’
            Three members of a white supremacist group were sentenced to prison Friday for kicking, choking and punching multiple people during the 2017 “United the Right” rally in Charlottesville and other rallies in California. The three were members of the California-based militant white supremacist organization “Rise Above Movement.” … A fourth defendant, Cole Evan White, will be sentenced at a later date, the attorney’s office said.

            “These defendants, motivated by hateful ideology, incited and committed acts of violence in Charlottesville, as well at other purported political rallies in California,” U.S. Attorney Thomas T. Cullen said.

            “They were not interested in peaceful protest or lawful First Amendment expression; instead, they intended to provoke and engage in street battles with those that they perceived as their enemies.”

            In all fairness, I, Woodchipper is NOT the only victim of BULLSHIT by our President’s PSYCHO LIES.

  23. There are plenty of problems.
    She still is using the unconstitutional wealth tax to raise revenue and now she is adding another unconstitutional revenue stream. She is saying the States will give the federal government what the states now pay for Medicaid. But Medicaid is only constitutional because it is voluntary spending bill. If you simply mandate the states give you money that is a commandeering problem in violation of the 10th Amendment.

    1. Say hi to Alex Jones.

    2. But Medicaid is only constitutional because it is voluntary spending bill

      And it’s crackers to slip a rozzer, the dropsy in snide!

      1. Not quite sure what either of you posts mean. But nothing I said is remotely conspiratorial. Alex Jones is crack pot. Does he even discuss constitutional law?

        Feel free to post your legal arguments as to why my statement is wrong. I welcome legal discussion and can always be persuaded I’m wrong with proper authorities cited.

        1. ALL of your crap is alt-right bullshit.
          And I don’t play mind games with your ilk.
          I could list 100 sources, and you — like Trump — would say FAKE NEWS — to bamboozle the other Trumptard robots.

          P.S. It’s YOUR job to prove your claims, NEVER anyone’s to disprove yours … so your BULLSHIT has no limit either, Trumptard

          1. Not alt-right, think Trump is horrible president. Also not hard left.

            I did show my claim as to why it is unconstitutional. Medicaid is a spending bill. A state receives federal medicaid money on condition of the state paying the rest and given covered citizens certain benefits. They did it that way because they can not just demand that the state do it (see NFIB v Sebelius for same regarding Medicare). To do that would be commandeering against the Tenth Amendment.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

            1. I did show my claim as to why it is unconstitutional. Medicaid is a spending bill.

              You made an ASSERTION, which SHOWS nothing.

              But Medicaid is only constitutional because it is voluntary spending bill

              WRONG! On your own source, NFIB V Sibelius!

              On the question of the expansion of Medicaid, no single opinion commanded the support of a majority of the Justices. However, a majority of the Court did find the expansion in some way unconstitutionally coercive and severed the coercive mechanism from the act.

              Chief Justice Roberts, joined by Justices Breyer and Kagan, would have ruled that the Medicaid expansion could survive, but that states must be given the right to opt out of the expansion without losing their pre-existing Medicaid funding.[36]
              Justice Ginsburg, joined by Justice Sotomayor, would have upheld the Medicaid expansion in its entirety (with non-participating states losing all their federal Medicaid funding).[37]
              Justices Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito would have struck down the Medicaid expansion completely (along with the entire Act).[32]

              (My emphasis) Constitutional scholars have questioned whether Roberts’s view that states must be given the right to opt out without losing their pre-existing Medicaid funding constitutes a holding of the court, given that it only attracted three justices, with the additional four justices objecting to the entire Medicaid provision in dissent but not joining Roberts’s opinion.[38]

              Your “response” was exactly as I predicted.

              1. P.S.

                see NFIB v Sebelius for same regarding Medicare).

                YOUR LINK NEVER EVEN MENTIONS MEDICARE … AND HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MEDICARE … SO YOU NEVER EVEN GLANCED AT YOUR OWN LINK!! (another cut and paste job?)

                So this is TOTALLY wrong

                A state receives federal medicaid money on condition of the state paying the rest and given covered citizens certain benefits. They did it that way because they can not just demand that the state do it (see NFIB v Sebelius for same regarding Medicare)

                Also contradicted yourself!
                A “condition” is a demand.

                The 10th Amendment has no relevance here, which is what conveys your alt-rightness. (Like Ron Paul, for the very worst example)

                1. The States also contend that the Medicaid expansion exceeds Congress’s authority under the Spending Clause. They claim that Congress is coercing the States to adopt the changes it wants by threatening to withhold all of a State’s Medicaid grants, unless the State accepts the new expanded funding and complies with the conditions that come with it. This, they argue, violates the basic principle that the “Federal Government may not compel the States to enact or administer a federal regulatory program.” New York, 505 U.S., at 188, 112 S.Ct. 2408.

                  Very first paragraph about what was being argued. 1) It is a spending bill 2) Coercion is an extension of the anti comandeering rule of the 10th amendment. Spending allows conditions to be placed on it (you can say demands that is fine but the point is they are required to do it, full stop. They only need to do it if they CHOOSE to in order to get the money. The coercion principle extends the anti-commandeering rule to recognize that if the conditions are so odious, read coercive, to not really give a choice then it is a mandate that would violate the 10th amendment.

                  Mistyping medicare instead of medicaid is hardly proof of anything.

                  NFIB gave a full discussion on what I was talking about that is why I cited it. The ultimate conclusion is based only on that specific provision but the reasoning carries forward. And questions regarding the remedy is not relevant to whether it was unconstitutional in the first place.

                  And I’ll leave you with this quote from the third
                  “We have long recognized that Congress may use this power to grant federal funds to the States, and may condition such a grant upon the States’ “taking certain actions that Congress could not require them to take.” College Savings Bank, 527 U.S., at 686, 119 S.Ct. 2219. ” (emphasis mine)

                  1. NFIB gave a full discussion on what I was talking about that is why I cited it

                    You are now even MORE full of shit!

                    If anyone CARES about FACTS ..
                    1) go to his link.
                    2) Do a page search for “Medicare” ZERO!
                    3) Join me in ridiculing such a shameless sack of shit liar.
                    .
                    Take you MAYBE 2 minutes. IF you rank truth higher than tribal partisan bullshit. If not, who cares what you think?

        2. “Feel free to post your legal arguments as to why my statement is wrong. I welcome legal discussion and can always be persuaded I’m wrong with proper authorities cited.”

          You’re wasting your time. The bot’s coding doesn’t permit that.

            1. It takes a special level of dumb to cite one’s own word salad of gibberish and claiming it is evidence of anything.

              But, Hihn, it’s just how you are. We don’t expect much out of you and, yet, you manage to disappoint.

              1. (laughing)

  24. Anti Whites don’t believe in ‘Diversity’ in general, they just hate White people.

    Diversity is entirely one-way: non White into White.

    White “privilege”: No right to borders anywhere! not even in Europe! “Diversity”, “Multiculturalism” for you only!

    Diversity means Chasing Down the Last White Person

    1. But you’re not just as wacky a bigot!!!

  25. Taxpayer funded healthcare is not only humane, but good economic principle.

    Good health is infrastructure.

    1. It is horribly inhumane and horrible economically. The quality and wait times of socialized healthcare is god awful as anyone in the UK, Canada or the VA will tell you. Economically, the more free shit you give people and decouple their standard of living from how much they produce, they less they work and produce. Spreading poverty is inhumane and that’s what medicare for all will do. Also, the government is economically inefficient in everything it does, and healthcare would be no different.
      Good health of productive workers is important to the economy and we already have that. For unproductive, low skilled and lazy workers, their health barely matters to the economy cause their economic output is next to nothing.
      You know what else taxpayer funded healthcare is? It’s completely unfair and chock full of perverse incentives. Most people in the US with sought after job skills and high productivity already have decent healthcare that they mostly like through their employers. Those people’s quality of healthcare will go down to the lowest common denominator of crappy government run healthcare at the same time their take home pay will drop as taxes rise. And all this so that people too stupid or lazy to get marketable job skills who produce very little value get healthcare from doctors and nurses who studied and worked their ass off. Sounds pretty unfair to me for anybody who actually believes in personal responsibility. But as everything else with liberal policy, it’s a wealth transfer from the productive to losers and moochers.

      1. SierraLima,
        Great rant. Lotsa slogans. Little substance. Which is WHY progressives are kicking our ass on health care. For decades.

        Always be pro-liberty, never be anti-government.
        Americans have ALWAYS been willing to pay for universal treatment — and DID pay for it, until Medicare/Medicaid. Indigent health care traces to the 1500s!

        Do the math, if Bernie and Elizabeth are the only ones claiming to provide the universal coverage that people have always been willing to pay for….. who wins? (Ignore Suderman’s everlasting bullshit, a large majority of Americans are willing to pay higher taxes for universal coverage, for the same reason they paid for it in a free market … since the 1500s)

        it’s called Will of The People, and Consent of the Governed. If you want to get government out of something, or keep them from entering something new … you MUST show a better way of doing what people want done. Or revolt into a dictatorship, with your TEENY minority. Pissing and moaning about gummint will appeal to fewer than 15% of the electorate. Hell, even super-extremist Ayn Rand honored Jefferson’s Consent of the Governed.

        Minority rule, on a libertarian web site? Huh-uh.

          1. (posted in self-defense from a serial stalker, who CELEBRATES murdering people in wood chippers)
            I, Woodchipper = POOR LOSER! (snort)
            BIGGER loser here: (sneer)

            https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994605

            For the uninformed, woodchipper, on this website, means those who CELEBRATE feeding LIVE humans into wood chippers … from the movie Fargo … among the ABSOLUTE lowest thugs on the authoritarian right.

        1. R’s never produce any facts about dissatisfaction or wait times. What we have are WHO stats that show our HC outcome is middle of the pack of industrialized nations but cost 100% more than our closet G8 country.

          Russia has no ‘socialized ‘ medicine and mortality rates have dropped by about 15 years since collapse of Soviet Union.

          1. Shocking that countries that don’t count births where the baby dies soon afterwards as live births might have “better” mortality rates.

            1. R’s never produce any facts about dissatisfaction or wait times

              Are you lying, brainwashed, or both?

              This LIBERTARIAN crushed that nonsense here:
              https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994471

              What we have are WHO stats that show our HC outcome is middle of the pack of industrialized nations but cost 100% more than our closet G8 country.

              That FALLACY is also exposed there.

            2. Part 2
              PLUS .. even worse for you … we spend more on GOVERNMENT health care (per capita) — for less than half our population … than Sweden, the U.K., Australia, New Zealand, and Japan spend for their ENTIRE populations!!
              Page 3: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/documents/___media_files_publications_issue_brief_2012_may_1595_squires_explaining_high_hlt_care_spending_intl_brief.pdf

              That means it’s MEDICARE that makes us the most costly … EVEN OBAMA AGREED! He described, as a problem, that his grandmother received a costly hip transplant … when she was terminal cancer … and died a few months later.

              You are REALLY manipulated.

              We are the ONLY country that spends $250,000 or more, for six months of life. OECD data shows other counties do FAR less costly diagnostic testing. They don’t buy the machines. In places like Canada, people die of cancers that were NEVER diagnosed.

              Our “HC outcomes” are severely distorted by GUNSHOT DEATHS .. which liberals piss and moan about .., except when it destroys their health care delusions. On HEALTH matters alone. we have FAR longer lifespans … because of all the money ONLY we spend on costly procedures for (mostly) seniors.

              You been manipulated. Sorry. But conservatives are just as badly bamboozled on healthcare, just in different parts of it.

              We have this battle over Big Insurance vs Big Government … by idealogues … but we need NEITHER. There was NO private health insurance … until FDR mandated it … and UNIVERSAL TREATMENT for the uninsured UNTIL MEDICAID which has an uninsured rate in excess of 20% (of Medicaid and CHIP eligibles).

              1. I do wonder who you’re referring to because nobody asked for gibberish.

                1. True, nobody asked me to PROVE — with original sources — that tim koss is as bat-shit crazy as you.

                  AND I DO NOT REQUIRE YOUR FUCKING PERMISSION TO RESPOND IN A PUBLIC FORUM.

        2. “Minority rule”? Who is SL trying to rule?

          “If you don’t pay for my benefits you are trying to rule over me”?

          “On a libertarian web site? Huh-uh.”

          Haha.

          1. EISTAU Gree-Vance is NOT very bright!
            And a FUCKING LIAR

            “Minority rule”?

            Who is SL trying to rule?

            DOES NOT KNOW WHAT MINORITY RULE MEANS.
            AND A FUCKING LIAR

            Here’s my FULL rebuttal … Not your COWARDLY and LYING SACK OF SHIT excerpt … and your giggles

            it’s called Will of The People, and Consent of the Governed. If you want to get government out of something, or keep them from entering something new … you MUST show a better way of doing what people want done. Or revolt into a dictatorship, with your TEENY minority. Pissing and moaning about gummint will appeal to fewer than 15% of the electorate. Hell, even super-extremist Ayn Rand honored Jefferson’s Consent of the Governed.

            FOR ANY OTHER RETARDS, IGNORING WILL OF THE PEOPLE …. AND CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED …. IS INDEED MINORITY RULE!

            *** Other than EISTAU Gree-Vance, how many other goobers “think” FIFTEEN PERCENT IS A MAJORITY??? (smirk)

            “If you don’t pay for my benefits you are trying to rule over me”?

            Nobody said that, you lying sack of shit

            “On a libertarian web site? Huh-uh.”

            Haha.

            BEND OVER. THIS WILL JAM UP YOUR ASS WITH LESS PAIN.

            Also for retards, THIS is the relevant fact and conflict that reveals the IGNORANCE of far-right goobers.

            Always be pro-liberty, never be anti-government.
            Americans have ALWAYS been willing to pay for universal treatment — and DID pay for it, until Medicare/Medicaid …

            Do the math, if Bernie and Elizabeth are the only ones claiming to provide the universal coverage that people have always been willing to pay for….. who wins? (Ignore Suderman’s everlasting bullshit, a large majority of Americans are willing to pay higher taxes for universal coverage, for the same reason they paid for it in a free market … since the 1500s)

            THAT — your IGNORANCE of FREE-MARKET health care, is what makes you such an easily manipulated puppet.

            – Just another libertarian … defending individual liberty from oppressors both left and right … for several decades … until death do us part

            (sneer).

            1. Haha. Calm down dude. You gonna have a heart attack and need some socialized healthcare from your minority rulers.

              What a doosh.

              1. CALL OUT A BELLOWING BLOWHARD … .. TRIGGER A PRECIOUS SNOWFLAKE, EVERY TIME!

                The Authoritarian Right = The Authoritarian Left
                Both puppets, dancing on strings controlled by the power elites

                Excerpts edited for space and time)

                *** Other than EISTAU Gree-Vance, how many other goobers “think” FIFTEEN PERCENT IS A MAJORITY??? (smirk)

                EISTAU Gree-Vance: What a doosh

                EISTAU: “If you don’t pay for my benefits you are trying to rule over me”?

                Nobody said that, you lying sack of shit

                EISTAU Gree-Vance: What a doosh

                ME: “On a libertarian web site? Huh-uh.”

                EISTAU: Haha. Do the math, if Bernie and Elizabeth are the only ones claiming to provide the universal coverage that people have always been willing to pay for….. who wins? (Ignore Suderman’s everlasting bullshit, a large majority of Americans are willing to pay higher taxes for universal coverage, for the same reason they paid for it in a free market … since the 1500s)

                THAT — your IGNORANCE of FREE-MARKET health care, is what makes you such an easily manipulated puppet.

                EISTAU Gree-Vance: What a doosh

                – Just another libertarian … defending individual liberty from oppressors both left and right … for several decades … until death do us part

                (posted in self-defense from MORE aggression, by a typical right-wing authoritarian thug, whose original bullshit …
                https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7995436 … was crushed, thus triggering the precious snowflake)

      2. Even with British NIH delays and incompetence and Canadian increased wait-times, if you ask a Brit, or a Canadian or a Swede or a German or anyone else if they would rather have the insurance system in the U.S. they will prefer their own system. Crazy idiots, right?

        1. Right. They’re as totally brainwashed as you.
          Now I’ll PROVE it … again

          Political health care mean betting you life, literally, that politicians, faced with tight budgets will NEVER cut your benefits, and ALWAYS increase your taxes.

          FOR EXAMPLE. (I’ll dumb it down
          ====
          Canada’s medicare was ruled NOT ruled unconstitutional because of WAITING TIMES. The ruling said it was “an unconstitutional threat to human life,” citing all the DEATHS on those lengthy waiting lists. The case involved a man who needed a hip transplant, but was told his waiting time would be “over a year,” NOTHING specific. Do you have ANY clue how bad the pain is, to need a transplant? Google Chaoulli v Quebec

          In a related case, Canada had slashed the federal share of funding. It took a COURT ORDER to restore PART of that … A COURT ORDER TO STOP KILLING PEOPLE … and give Parliament cover for raising taxes.

          ====
          In England, massive nurse layoffs THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED, after being wheeled into rooms and ABANDONED. MANY WERE FOUND DEAD IN THEIR OWN EXCREMENT. The government’s Keogh Report was roughly like our Inspector Generals .
          Here’s THAT proof.
          https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-keogh-report-blames-nurses-2058461

          Even WORSE

          1. Even WORSE, KEOGH ALSO REPORTED THAT IN-HOSPITAL DEATHS ARE 45% HIGHER IN ENGLAND THAN THE US,

            https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-hospital-death-rates-45-2267948

            (ONLY allowed one link per page.)

            NEXT THE SHAME OF MEDICAID FUNDING

            1. THE SHAME OF MEDICAID FUNDING

              This study, just before the ObamaCare Medicaid expansion found 1/4 out uninsured … 12 million people were eligible for Medicaid and SCHIP (children … BUT NEVER ENROLLED.

              THERE WERE NO DOCTORS. Medicaid pays an average 25% less than even Medicare (WHY?) So more Doctors could not afford to treat Medicaid than Medicare, with Medicaid at $18 per visit … and too few privately insured to recover their losses by overcharging … so NO DOCTORS in the poorest inner cities.

              http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/25/AR2008042502855.html

              How can the same government underfund Medicaid so tragically … but make over $50 TRILLION in UNPAID commitments to Medicare?

              Wait for it?

              SENIORS VOTE AND POOR PEOPLE DO NOT.
              POLITICAL HEALTH CARE

              There’s a LOT more, but this is to your own false assertions.
              NO regard for “Sanctity of Life” ,… but MUCH regard for FRAUDULENT political positions..

              1. P.S. The uninsured rate for Medicaid eligibles was HIGHER than the private market (under 65), pre ObamaCare. .

                THE HIGHEST UNINSURED RATE IS FOR MEDICAID ELIGIBLES … so MORE PEOPLE DIE UNINSURED BY MEDICAID … WHICH IS A GUARANTEED RIGHT! (/sarc)

                OBAMACARE ADDED TENS OF MILLIONS TO MEDICAID ELIGIBLES … BUT NO MORE DOCTORS … DO THE MATH

                PLUS, THE ELIGIBLE UNINSURED ARE NOW AUTO-ENROLLED IF THEY SHOW UP IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM … A BRIBE TO HOSPITALS … BUT NO DOCTORS FOR PRIMARY CARE … NO DOCTORS FOR CANCER … ETC

                (vomit)

    2. (laughing) Political health care requires betting your life, literally, that politicians — faced with tight budgets will always increase your taxes. and NEVER cut your benefits. What are the odds?

      This is WHY
      1) Medicaid pays so much less than even Medicare, so more doctors refuse to accept it, and the HIGHEST uninsured rate is Medicaid (and CHIP) eligibles.

      2) Before Medicaid, we had UNIVERSAL TREATMENT for the indigent, provided by thousands of Charity Hospitals (Only Catholic ones had “charity” in their name), financed by a wide variety of churches, foundations, charities … and the fraternals who had financed indigent care since the 1500s (like today’s Kiwanis and Rotary).

      3) So, how can the same government have unpaid commitments of over $50 trillion in Medicare, but fund Medicaid so atrociously? Seniors vote. Poor folks do not. POLITICAL HEALTHCARE

      4) Medicaid DESTROYED health care for low incomes, because Bernie’s and Elizabeth’s parents screeched. “HEALTHCARE SHOULD BE A RIGHT … NOT DEPENDING ON CHARITY.” At the time, EVERY non-wealthy was in a “ward”, 8-12 beds in a room, and NOBODY knew who was there on charity. Today …. Medicaid
      eligibles are the MOST likely to die uninsured. Political health care

      5) In 2005, Canada’s medicare was ruled “an unconstitutional threat to human life” — citing all the Canadians dying on waiting lists of a year or more. It took a court order for their federal government to restore the heavy cuts in their share of funding … a court order to stop killing their own people. Google Chaoulli v Quebec. Political healthcare.

      6) Now google the Keogh Report (like our Inspector Generals). It found that thousands of Brits died needlessly, having been rolled into empty hospital rooms and abandoned. Many were found dead in their own excrement. Understaffing … caused by underfunding. Hundreds of nurses had been laid off. The remaining nurses were forced to work over 12 hours per day, as many as 14 days in a row. Political healthcare.

    3. “Taxpayer funded healthcare is not only humane, but good economic principle.
      Good health is infrastructure.”

      On top pf being a scumbag bigot, you’re a fucking idiot.

      1. “”“Taxpayer funded healthcare is not only humane, but good economic principle.
        Good health is infrastructure.”””

        Said no libertarian ever.

  26. Warren says it’s not a tax. But what else would you call a requirement that employers send money to the federal government to finance a public program?

    I’m sure she’ll come up with some euphemism: “voluntary donation linked to corporate charter”, “social solidarity contribution”, “healthy employees benefit”, etc.

    1. How about shared responsibility contribution? Or is that already taken?

      1. It’s can also called a USER FEE.

  27. if it did not cost a cent extra, i STILL would rather not have CrazyShriekingAunt determining what healthcare i could get after waiting TEN MONTHS for the appt.

  28. Wait, wait, wait – I just saw a news clip of Warren talking about how this thing is going to be paid for and she said it’s going to be paid for by asking the 1% and big corporations to pay their fair share, so I’m on board with this now. As long as you’re just asking the 1% and the big corporations, it’s totally voluntary and I’m cool with that.

    1. The 1% and the big corporations already subsidize about half of the entire share of the income tax for the core middle-class ($40k-100k)

      But I’m sure you’re using satire again … NOT demanding an even greater entitlement, for yourself. from the rich.

      I’m also sure you are NOT too dumb to know that corporate stock is owned mostly by … employee pension funds.

  29. “”we don’t need to raise taxes on the middle class by one penny to finance Medicare for All.” ”

    Even if every penny of her bullshit plan came from companies, tens of millions of middle class and even low income people participate in retirement plans or even invest outside of retirement plans in their own accounts. This means that Warren is going to indirectly tax anyone who has wealth or any investments (pension funds, 401K, IRA, 403B, Sep, etc) or regular taxable brokerage account.

    Well, that and obviously ALL costs are built into prices that a business charges for their products and services, thus anytime you supposedly target businesses to pay extra prices have to rise which negatively impacts the consumer….which includes anyone that spends money. Just another indirect tax on ALL consumers of ALL income ranges.

    1. Yep. THAT is what Suderman fucked up. This time.
      His hatred for Warren caused him to FUCK UP the LOWER employer-paid healthcare costs to the middle class. She kicked his ass. But you focused on the reality of WHERE the middle-class would pay … NOT where Suderman screeched about.

      She can now simply ridicule his screwup, and ignore the rest.
      That’s how politics works, and WHY Progressives have been kicking our ass for decades. in the court of public opinion.

      P.S. Over 60% of Americans would pay a higher tax IF it provided universal treatment …. which Americans have been willing to pay, for over a century … and DID pay, freely and willingly, which requires knowledge of how free-market health care REALLY worked. (since the 1500s)

      1. “pay a higher tax”

        how much higher?

        ” IF it provided universal treatment”

        Show me the coverage plan

        1. ANOTHER cowardly diversion by the stalker who CELEBRATES murdering people in wood chippers.

          This links to the search results for the surveys. YOU LOSE AGAIN!
          https://www.bing.com/search?q=survey+higher+taxes+for+universal+coverage

          Note that Suderman is listed as one of VERY few who reported the opposite. But his was January, so check for the recent dates.

          PLUS …..

        2. Part 2
          Americans have ALWAYS paid for universal treatment … LONG before government did ANYTHING.

          Charitable support for indigent health care traces to …. ummm … the 1500s.

          Educate yourself here, chump
          https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994471

          I now add your TOTAL ignorance of free-market health care to all your other many screwups here.

          Do the math, if Bernie and Elizabeth are the only ones claiming to provide the universal coverage that people have always been willing to pay for….. who wins?

          it’s called Will of The People, and Consent of the Governed. If you want to get government out of something, or keep them from entering something new … you MUST show a better way of doing what people want done. Or revolt into a dictatorship, with your TEENY minority. Pissing and moaning about gummint will appeal to fewer than 15% of the electorate. Hell, even super-extremist Ayn Rand honored Jefferson’s Consent of the Governed.

          AND IF YOU TRY TO FEED ME INTO A WOOD CHIPPER, I’LL BLOW YOUR FUCKING HEAD OFF … (But he’s probably just typical cyber-bully, a blowhard online, a sniveling coward in the real world)

          (flush)

        3. Yes, asking for specific is a cowardly diversion.

          Said no libertarian ever.

          1. MOAR FROM THE AUTHORITARIAN RIGHT!!!

            Yes, asking for specific is a cowardly diversion.
            Said no libertarian ever.

            Is it LIBERTARIANS who say,” I just want government out” .,.. because VOTERS have no need for specifics in a fascists state …. where votes NEVER need to be earned … because votes don’t matter … ONLY BELLOWING BLOWHARDS MATTER?

  30. Fine by me. I hope they start taxing the holy crap out of everyone making over $1mil/year (let’s get back to 90%). and get rid of all those “caps” and exclusions for SS taxes, etc too.

    Be sure to cut the military budget by at least 50% as well.

    1. GREAT SATIRE!

      Progtards are too brainwashed to know that 91% tax rates CAUSED the Great Depression (the term was not used until FDR, who had inherited a RECOVERY)

      Then, after WWII, those 91% tax rates caused FIVE back-to-back recessions in only 13 years (1944-1957) … until Kennedy’s tax cuts repealed those rates!!
      https://www.nber.org/cycles.html

      It’s not just progtards. Nick Gillespie says all those recessions were …. a BOOM! … AT 91% TAX RATES!!!!!

  31. This bat-shit crazy hysteria is why progressives have been kicking our ass for decades. Suderman fucks up his larger “argument” again, by going APESHIT, because …. IT’S A TAX …. IT’S A TAX. …. Plus he fucks up the math!!

    Elizabeth kicked his ass, AGAIN. Another loss for anti-gummint gooberism. Does the dumbass think employers would still be paying insurance premiums? (OMFG)

    Suderman blew the larger costs by SCREECHING about a MIDDLE-CLASS TAX INCREASE.

    Umm, if employers send LESS MONEY to the gummint than they send to insurance companies …. how in HELL does that cost the workers more?

    BUT IT’S NOW A TAX! (lol) A tax which is LESS than today’s costs! THAT bullshit is what makes an ass of today’s fiscal conservatives. IT’S A TAX — that CUTS employer costs (AND WORKERS COSTS, DIPWAD.

    She’ll just smirk and say, “The employer merely sends FEWER DOLLARS to the government instead of to those greedy insurance companies … which is a CUT in middle-class costs.” And all the ACTUAL higher costs fade away.

    You could see this blunder building for over a year — screeching TAX — for what employers already pay.

    Hey dumbass Peter, did you miss how she shifted the costs AWAY from the low and middle-class who buy “individual” coverage on the exchanges?

    THE REAL STORY? We are the ONLY country where employers pay for health care. DUH. THAT is what has lost so many of our best-paid jobs — especially in manufacturing — and she is gonna make us even WORSE in world markets. THAT is how the middle- and working-class will get fucked, Peter. (But Cato and Mercatus are just as stoopid,

    IT’S A TAX. As today’s libertarian establishment foments hysteria among its (now) cult of followers … just like the other two tribes in the political class.

    These “scholars” would go ape-shit if your house payments were somehow cut by 25% … over the same number of months … but IT’S A TAX, not a mortgage payment to a lender … as if anybody gave a shit, with a 25% lower house pyment. They’d even screech that it’s a MIDDLE-CLASS TAX INCREASE, while homeowners peed their pants laughihng. …

    As Lady Liberty weeps in deadly fear … totally undefended.

    This is WHY the libertarian label is REJECTED BY 91% OF LIBERTARIANS! (Cato Survey) Now a cult, like the Moonies, Davidians and Jim Jones’ People’s Temple.

    Drink the kool-aid goobers. The greatest threat to individual liberty is now … the libertarian establishment. Progressive are SO easy to beat … to anyone with a brain (and not anti-gummint gooberism).

    1. Can’t help but note that your comment would be more effective with more caps and bold type.

      1. I can’t help but note that you’re a LOSER on the facts, so became a whiny pussy about …. punctuation!

        1. They never mentioned your punctuation. But now that you mention it, so many ellipses and dashes are surely unwarranted.

          1. How to make an ass of yourself … in public!

            They never mentioned your punctuation

            Umm, “they” is plural. One is not plural.
            Learn what punctuation means.

            But now that you mention it, so many ellipses and dashes are surely unwarranted.

            ANOTHER whiny pussy on punctuation …. because a LOSER on the substantive issues!

            (This is the only way some can feel manly, those with tiny … hands … and actual knowledge)

          2. Hardly anyone has mentioned Hihn’s stupidity, either,

            1. Readers will judge for themselves whether the “stupidity” is your typically infantile aggression … or the WEALTH OF FACTS you FAILED to even address.
              https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994417

              Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do.
              –Benjamin Franklin

              Complaining about a problem, without posing a solution, is whining.
              -Theodore Roosevelt

              Always be pro-liberty, never anti-government. (unless you think your >15% should rule)

                1. PISSED that I provide FACTS … with SOURCES
                  And all he EVER does is … “Fuck off” … like the retarded 12-year-olds who yell “shit” on the school bus … and giggle.

                  KNOW he still giggles. (sneer)

  32. “Under her proposal, large employers who currently pay for health overage would be required to pay a comparable amount (equivalent to 98 percent of what they pay now”

    That’s one way coercive monopolies work that Reason supports when it comes to government.

    1. Coercive monopolies REDUCE costs in the markets they coerce!! Who knew?

      Reason is indeed fucked up on liberty, for decades. but NOT in the way you claim.

  33. Man, I sure am glad Suderman is on this beat, and warning us, I never saw this sort of taxation coming from Warren.

    1. You actually swallowed that???
      https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994417

      Suderman has been screwing up on health care, all aspects, for over a decade. But how would you know?

      1. Check your sarc meter…

  34. You have to check the details with anything a progressive says. And even more so what the progressive didn’t say. She just forgot to mention that $9T she quoted was in 1965 dollars.

    1. You have to check the details with anything a progressive says.

      Or a conservatard. Just as brainwashed.

      She just forgot to mention that $9T she quoted was in 1965 dollars.

      Left – Right = Zero

      1. “Left – Right = Zero”

        Takes real stupidity to keep repeating that horseshit.
        Fuck off, Hihn.

        1. Takes SUPER stupidity to PROVE ME CORRECT!
          Left and Right DO have equal value. Both filled with THUGS.

          Left – Right = Zero
          Two sides of the same authoritarian coin.
          WATCH Sevo stalk and shout down opposing views ….; JUST LIKE BERKELEY THUGS ON THE LEFT!

          And he’s PROUD of being a thug!!!!

          1. Help me out some more if left and right have equal value, say 20. Isn’t it 20+20 since they do not cancel each other out. We still have 40 Bad apples.

            1. Help me out some more

              May not be possible, but …

              if left and right have equal value, say 20. Isn’t it 20+20 since they do not cancel each other out. We still have 40 Bad apples

              Different issue. I was correcting Sevo’s fuckup. And you changed the equation!!!!

              THIS error is elementary logic. “They do not cancel each other out” is a PREMISE, not a conclusion.

              ONE MORE TIME, THE EQUATION — IN USE FOR 50 YEARS MEANS THEY HAVE EQUAL VALUE. You may disagree with the value being equal, or with the equation, fine, but that has NOTHING to do with what THAT equation says.

              You kinda like reversed cause and effect.

              We’ve also said the following for a half-century, which are now virtually self-evident
              1) Left and Right are obsolete, since the options are NOT binary.
              2) BECAUSE over 60% of Americans are NEITHER left nor right,
              self-describing as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, thus the larger truth.
              3) Liberals want government out of your bedroom and into your wallet. Conservatives want government out of your wallet and into your bedroom. Thus, neither defends individual liberty.

              That last part may be evaporating, since Republicans are now MUCH worse on deficits, both Bush2 and Trump. (Trump being the worst EVER.)

          2. Aha. So if what is meant is both left and right, which are hard to define at any given point, can lead to authoritarianism I agree.

            In order to figure that out you need another axis. The y axis Nolan tried to do went from libertarian to authoritarian. It was imperfect but still works. If you can think of people on a two axis x y map the picture becomes much clearer.

            Most people do not get it.

            1. ANOTHER SCREWUP!
              Equations do not have axes … charts do. DUH.

              And Nolan did a LOT more than “try.” Does that confuse you, too?
              You screwed up what the specific axes are.
              The horizontal axis is …. laughing … left and right!
              The vertical axis is authoritarian vs libertarian — because they too are polar opposites.

              The left-right (horizontal) is TOTALLY obsolete, but then assumed to be the totality of it ll.

              POINT BEING: There are libertarians on both the left and right.
              And authoritarians both left and right.

              So, you’re judging a chart, about which you know NOTHING.
              Add that to your confusing an equation with a chart!!

              Most people do not get it.

              You are NOT most people.

              And this is not one of your better pages.

      2. I never understood left – right = zero

        If you have an x axis with zero in the center it should be left + right = zero. Assuming whatever you assign as left or right of zero have equal values. Every school child knows this. So someone help me out here.

        -20 + 20 = 0

        Honestly I don’t get it.

        1. Your rather massive error in logic is spelled out here
          https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994652

          Short version: you introduce a DIFFERENT equation, thus no relevance at all … but may explain your confusion/refusal.

          ONE MORE TIME, THE EQUATION — IN USE FOR 50 YEARS MEANS THEY HAVE EQUAL VALUE. You may disagree with the value being equal, or with the equation, fine, but that has NOTHING to do with what THAT equation says.

          You kinda like reversed cause and effect.

          For example, “axis” is total bullshit. A graph or chart is NOT an equation. Google them.

          You people make me giggle!

          1. I see my mistake here.

            1. DEEP bow of appreciation.
              I’ve kinda assumed that Echospinner is one of the few good guys in this swamp. YEP!

              1. How dare you say that sir! (Smacks glove on table) I take umbrage, yes that’s right I said it umbrage at that remark. One more insult like that and I shall have to challenge you to Covfefe.

                Artemis, go fetch the steeds. We ride into the night!

                Lol.

  35. For at least the past four decades I’ve been ,my own medical insurance plan. Zero premium, zero deductible, no cap 100% copay. Any doc I wanna see, no one is outside my “caregiver network”. I have paid, out of pocket, every medical expense I’ve incurred in that time period. I pay at the time I receive the service/product. My total costs for those four decades is well under a thousand dollars. I have not bothered to keep track….. nor do I keep track of how much I spend to keep my car running well.

    When Oh BUmmer Tax was supposedly mandatory I decided to at least check and see what the year’s premium would be. I busted up laughing y head off when I used someone else’s computer (can’t trace back to MINE) and went through the whole charade, and Ka Chingggggg, the bottom line for me was… drumroll, trumpets, prancing ponies… EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR. The floor of expenses I would have to pay out of pocket (deductable) before anything would be paid out of the plan’s fund was…. EIGHT TIMES what I had actually spent over FORTY YEARS or more paying for ALL my medical care.

    And I”m definitely in the age bracket where most folks are spending thousands a year on all manner of crazy diseases, infirmities, sicknesses…..

    How does that work? I stay VERY physically active (just got back from a 40 mile bike ride, 2.5 hours) eat right (hardly any grains, no artificial sweeteners, no funny doctored fats, plenty of clean protein, lots of fresh fruits and vegetables, and enough decent rest to restore and keep healthy. Just a month ago had full blood workup. Nothing in there is worth concern. Cholestro a tad high, it runs that way in our family. Fasting blood suger up a tad, within normal, but I’d had a cup of good coffee two hours before, that spikes blood sugar. Blood pressure a tad high, but because of a workplace injury I am in constant pain, and thus trouble sleeping. Both of those spike BP. But I can still get on a road bike and head out and pound for two hours straight, working constantly in high zone three for a male my age… which is a practical low zone three for me, as my heart rate when working is probably that of a man 30 years younger than me.

    So WHO needs anything like what Poking Haunt Us will put together and call a “universal health care plan”?

    1. “…I have paid, out of pocket, every medical expense I’ve incurred in that time period [4 decades]. I pay at the time I receive the service/product. My total costs for those four decades is well under a thousand dollars…”

      You are certainly making the effort to reduce medical costs, but you are also certainly very fortunate; if everyone followed your regimen, not everyone would be lucky enough to achieve your result, and to be honest, I’m calling bullshit on a claim that your medical care costs are ~$25/year. Band aids, aspirin and Ace bandages cost more than that.
      At the least, people end up in various accidents which can be expensive. And if that ‘four decades’ was from, say, 15 to 55, you are now beginning to require more care.
      My insurance has been directly self-paid for a similar amount of time (or more), but there is no way I would NOT have medical insurance. Because of the government’s market distortion, even simple procedures and tests can be amazingly expensive.

    2. Obamacare is as full of shit as YOU are.
      (You MAY be worse)

      Sevo is correct, you are BAT-SHIT CRAZY on your costs. ($25 per year) I’ll assume you pasted all that from a right-wing wacko web site. And perhaps no more than your mid-20s

      But Alex Jones will give you a cookie!

      P.S. Your claim of ObamaCare premiums of $667 per month … for individual (not family) coverage assumes readers here are as stupid as … you.

    3. Congrats on the excellent care you have taken of your own health.

      Despite all of that admirable, and I mean that sincerely, effort some things are beyond human control.

      Cancers, trauma, infection, I can give a very long list of things not preventable. Some can run into the hundreds of thousands.

      What you probably need is a lower cost catastrophic insurance to protect what you have worked hard for.

      Here is the real deal. Hard to get or find. You can take your chances until Medicare

      1. Catastrophic insurance.
        “Am I covered for cancer?”
        Of course!!! After an $8,000 deductible.
        “Fuck off.”

        Catastrophic, as currently regulated is STUPID. Insurance spreads the risk. The higher the deductible, the more risk shifts BACK TO YOU. Health insurance is NOT auto or homeowner!

        FAR smarter to provide first-dollar coverage for cancer and other costly treatments. I’m in remission now, but my treatment was below average (stage 1), and the TOTAL cost (insurance and mine) was a hair over $300,000

        Then ZERO coverage for routine primary care. Also puts the incentives in line. DO cover costly tests, like mammograms, colonoscopies, etc, with maybe a $50 deductible, or a sliding one. This gets out-of-pocket low enough that charity care can cover the low-income folks (as it always used to).

        1. What sort of cancer did you have that required coverage for mammography?

          1. What kind of education left you so laughably illiterate?
            I mean, two TOTALLY separate paragraphs AND topics!!!

            Still confused?
            MY cancer was an example of how costly the treatment could be.
            THIS defines an insurance package that would address my proposed structure of catastrophic coverage …

            Then ZERO coverage for routine primary care. Also puts the incentives in line. DO cover costly tests, like mammograms, colonoscopies, etc, with maybe a $50 deductible, or a sliding one. This gets out-of-pocket low enough that charity care can cover the low-income folks (as it always used to).

            … the current “catastrophic” being stupid, for the reasons I explained … which is why so few people choose it as an option!!

            PLUS … “mammograms and colonoscopies” are TESTS … which determine of TREATMENT is needed. That $300,000 was for my cancer TREATMENT … not the PET Scan which revealed the cancer.

            Anything else?

            1. P.S. Also learn what “like” means! AND “ETC.”

              DO cover costly tests, like mammograms, colonoscopies, etc, with maybe a $50 deductible, or a sliding one. …

      2. Yeah, “being lucky” and “having good genetics” isn’t really a great strategy for health care.

        1. Self ownership means self responsibility.

          That is a libertarian ‘strategy’ for healthcare.

          1. Has NOTHING to do with health care. which is WHY we’ve been getting our ass kicked for decades, in the court of public opinion.

      3. You know who has abysmal cancer survival rates?

        Single payer countries.

        1. WRONG AGAIN.
          They do a small fraction of the tests we do … because the diagnostic testing equipment is so costly. So, many of most of their cancer deaths were never diagnosed as cancer .. which makes it kinda hard to know the cancer survival rates!!

          1. You’re aware that they can actually study these things.

            And if your system is unable to DETECT CANCER, seems to not be terribly useful.

            Care to guess what country has the highest cancer survival rate?

            1. You’re aware that they can actually study these things.

              ANOTHER MASSIVE FUCKUP.
              WHAT THEY STUDY IS … THE TESTS I MENTIONED … WHICH ARE A VARIETY OF SCANS — CT, PET, MAMMOGRAMS, COLONOSCOPY, ETC — DEPENDING ON THE CANCER

              And if your system is unable to DETECT CANCER, seems to not be terribly useful.

              READ IT AGAIN CRAZED STALKER … THEY CAN’T DETECT CANCER IF THEY DON’T LOOK FOR IT!

              Care to guess what country has the highest cancer survival rate?

              HOW CAN YOU CALCULATE THE CANCER SURVIVAL RATE, WHEN MOST OF THEIR CANCERS ARE NEVER DETECTED????

  36. having scanned a few comments let me say this: the folks who cavalierly dismiss universal HI as too expensive currently have HC. If you get it thru your job then I subsidize you currently because your approximately $4200 annual benefit is not taxed.

    So I don’t want to continue subsidizing you. Now which of the so-called libertarians here want to give up their untaxed health insurance benefit from their employer?

    the second part of this comment is that you all seem to have no interest in the commonweal. aka your fellow citizen. In your mind, they or we, can get sick and die, kids included.

    Guess what, the voters are not down with that, so they will keep insisting on some type of universal coverage and certainly keeping pre-existing. Any vote against pre-existing is political suicide.

    Now if 5th Circuit strikes down the ACA , which could be any day now, L&R will have to come up with a plan , fast, that guarantees pre-existing and doesn’t cost more for voters than the 20 M with free Medicaid or the 9 M with subsidized ACA. Since ACA or Mass Care or the Heritage Plan just got ruled unconstitutional you will have to come up with another plan that gets the same results.

    Lo and behold, it will likely be some kind of Medicare for all, because thanks to the zealots that got the ACA killed, most other avenues will be constitutionally shut down.

    oh and Dems sweep in 2020. So maybe we get gun control and climate change too.

    many thanks RW readicals.

    1. Now which of the so-called libertarians here want to give up their untaxed health insurance benefit from their employer?

      There are MAYBE five libertarians on the entire page.

      But your question is misinformed. Any repeal of the employer-paid tax loophole would be offset by a larger exemption for the workers. Several different ones have been proposed. That would eliminate the subsidy though.

      You ARE correct on the FUCKING STUPIDITY of today’s fiscal
      conservatives. Americans have ALWAYS been willing to pay for the uninsured. Very few Americans are the selfish assholes which now dominate the right.

      HOWEVER. there’s a better alternative by REAL libertarians (until about a quarter-century ago). A 100% tax CREDIT for all donations to charitable health care. The private infrastructure that ruled health care for nearly a century must be rebuilt. The tax credit transfers the cash to private at the exact pace needed –whatever that may be.

      It’s very likely that this voluntary funding would be insufficient for modern medicine. But EVERY free-market economist acknowledges government support for the truly needy. The privatization I describe would identify who they are. You want Medicaid, only if NO private charitable support is available for you (after the transition). Personally, I’d have government cover all VERY costly treatment, like cancer. That would LITERALLY reduce everyone’s average costs by roughly the same amount. Do the math.

      For decades, I’ve finished that story with, “I’m an atheist, but I KNOW no charity hospital would EVER neglect anyone (like the politicians always have)”

      A few years back, my new doctor listened, adopted a smug grin she DESERVED and said, “That would be a sin.”

      KAPOW

      1. Charity hospitals collapsed long ago. There is not enough charity in our hearts or pocketbooks to pay for modern medical care based on charity. Most of them were where you went to die or get well on your own which was what medicine was until fairly recently in history.

        That has nothing to do with libertarianism. It is what libertarians, communists, progressives, right wingers, left wingers, anarchists, or anyone else needs to deal with as fact. For the simple reason that your kidneys, liver, lungs, pancreas, arteries, and bless your hearts, do not care.

        It is why in every religion, the medicals get a pass. It is why a charge nurse in a hospital can push the cops and anyone else, even the docs, out of the way and say I have work to do.

        So figure out how to pay for it, how much you want, and for whom.

        Then we talk.

        Heh. I get the doctors joke. Good one.

        1. YOU FUCKING MORON.
          CHARITY HOSPITALS WERE BOTH ACTIVE AND DOMINANT … RIGHT CUP UNTIL MEDICAID.

          PAY ATTENTION. THIS IS VERY SIMPLE;

          READY, GOOBER.

          WHY WOULD ANYONE DONATE TO HEALTH CARE … WHEN GOVERNMENT STARTS PAYING FOR IT?

          EVEN CRAZIER ….

          There is not enough charity in our hearts or pocketbooks to pay for modern medical care based on charity

          Not ALL of it … qhich is

          1. Not all of it … WHICH IS WHAT I SAID!!!

            It’s very likely that this voluntary funding would be insufficient for modern medicine. But EVERY free-market economist acknowledges government support for the truly needy. The privatization I describe would identify who they are. You want Medicaid, only if NO private charitable support is available for you (after the transition).

            1) Anyone else so TOTALLY full of shit?
            2) Did the prog say it MUST be government health care UNLESS private charity can finance 100% of indigent care? (YESSS!)
            3) WHY DOES THE AUTHORITARIAN OPPOSE THAT THE PRIVATE VS PUBLIC RATIO BE DETERMINED BY MARKET CHOICES … INSTEAD OF HIS LAUGHABLY IGNORANT OPINION? CAN YOU HEAR STALIN IN HIS WORDS?

            Why did the Prog ass-ume that people would donate and fundraise … AFTER government said, “we’ll pay for it all?”
            Hello? Hello? Anybody home?
            Nope.

            1. P.S. Echospinner is also MASSIVELY full of shit on what a charity hospital was … regular, full service hospitals, that also provided charity care to the indigent uninsured .

              It was mostly only Catholic hospitals that had “charty” in their name. My family’s Lutheran Hospital — that’s what it was called — was a fully charity hospital. Virtually ALL hospitals were charity hospitals.

              Most of them were where you went to die or get well on your own which was what medicine was until fairly recently in history.

              IN THE SIXTIES??? (smirk)
              HOSPITALS WERE TREATING PEOPLE FOR OVER A HUNDRED YEARS.

              Google when the Iron Lung went into service … open heart surgery … x-rays … . cancer treatment. MY FATHER WAS CURED OF COLON CANCER IN THE EARLY 195Os.

              WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM???

        2. an aside . a local children’s hospital dominates the add-on charity gifting at the local cash registers. You know, care to round up your charge to donate the children’s hospital? At which point I say: the CEO of said hospital make $2.7M and the hospital itself gets billions from HI co’s , Medicaid, CHIPS, unions etc.

          why do they need my paltry little contribution and how much does running this donation program cost against what it gets. IOW I have a naggin suspicion most of the money collected goes to collecting the money.

          1. Your confusion is severe .,.. but very common.
            There were NEVER charity-only hospitals. The charity patients were mixed in with all the paying ones.

            They provide FREE care to the uninsured … while you whine like a pussy about somebody’s pay gradel

            Translation: Your screwup was assuming ALL their are was charitable … while also knowing it was not … IOW having no idea what a CHARITY HOSPITAL was..

            What’s YOUR plan to provide the FREE care we USED to provide to the uninsured indigent … with UNIVERSAL TREATMENT (before Medicaid which has an uninsured rate in excess of 20%)

            I didn’t think so …

          2. They use that money and the stuff from the big donors to pay for the new awesome lobby with the artwork and water wall. It isn’t going to pay for medical care for the indigent.

            Shriners is probably an exception they do not bill patients at all. They may collect insurance but not sure about that.

            1. PROVE IT. (snort)

      2. while I don’t disagree with your ideas I will say this:

        any effort to redress the repeal of ACA will have to pass a D House. the House will not flip. and a D House will want something that meets or beats Obamacare. It is why they won the majority in 2018. R’s only want white guys who work for large companies to have HI, and of course members of Congress.

        caught in the crossfire is the 160M people who are protected from pre-existing conditions. Start seeing folks lose that, folks like me who had a melanotic mole removed and their will be riots.
        Americans may not be heath care economists but they know they have been getting better HC in the last several years because of Ocare. No recessions, no pre-existing, regular free check up and flue shots.

        so D’s and some R’s will craft a plan that at this stage can only be a Medicare like plan because Medicare itself is very constitutional.

        Even Trump will have to sign this bill because this will be on his desk sometime very inconveniently before Nov 2020.

        1. “R’s only want white guys who work for large companies to have HI, and of course members of Congress.”

          …oh. You’re a fucking clown. Got it.

        2. “aught in the crossfire is the 160M people who are protected from pre-existing conditions. Start seeing folks lose that, folks like me who had a melanotic mole removed and their will be riots.”

          Why should I care if you live or die?You being uninsurable is, very much, a you problem. Not an US problem.

  37. How do we “pay for it”? When Congress authorizes the spending. The US Dollar is the monopoly product of the US Government. The federal government’s supply of US Dollars is always equal to infinity. It spends by simply crediting a bank account with numbers. “Money is not the issue here-REAL RESOURCES are. They are finite things. So the question is not, “How do we pay for it. The question is, are their enough resources?”

    1. The federal government’s supply of US Dollars is always equal to infinity

      This is a perfect example of why Austrian economics is so thigh-slapping funny.

      It spends by simply crediting a bank account with numbers

      That is so totally wrong as to be … thigh slapping funny. Even if it did make a lick of sense, it requires a value GREATER than infinity!

      And an infinity level of dollars would each be worth … ZERO!

      You might study Milton Friedman, who put all the “gold” bullshit to rest several decades ago, with a simple question, “Do we want stable prices or a stable money supply?”

      OBVIOUSLY cannot have both, unless we can somehow repeal the Law of Supply and Demand. So we OBVIOUSLY prefer stable prices, which gold TOTALLY failed to provide. Even after silver was added.

      You’ve also confused currency with resources …

    2. Close, ““How do we pay for it. The question is, are their enough of other peoples resources to steal that much?”

      You don’t own you — [WE] own you… Sell your soul to the [WE] foundation and [WE] will decide what’s best for you.

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  39. Yeah, her plan is ridiculous.
    Now let’s compare it to the Republican plan…

    1. THERE IS NO REPUBLICAN PLAN,
      But you already knew that.

      1. Where can I sign-up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        That’s the GOV PLAN I want!!!!!!!!!!!!

        I never sold my body ownership to the [WE] foundation so I don’t know why they keep pretending like they own it. JUST LEAVE ME ALONE and go play these commie games among-st the [WE] foundation members.

        Warren starts a new health insurance company ONLY for Democrats who love to pretend they own each other. Go sign-up if you think that’s what you need just don’t IMPERSONATE me.

        1. HERE IS NO REPUBLICAN PLAN,

          Where can I sign-up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          That’s the GOV PLAN I want!!!!!!!!!!!!

          WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!

          A government plan is what we’ll get BECAUSE the Republicans have NO PRIVATE PLAN. And they FUCKED UP by rejecting the ORIGINAL (bipartisan) Obamacare … which had a PRIVATE alternative to a public option, that would have killed single-payer forever. Thank you Mitch McConnell and the dumbfucklicans.
          .

          1. Government’s “PRIVATE PLAN” — It just floors me how you can be so contradive with a straight face.

            1. NOW HE SAYS A GOVERNMENT PLAN IS A PRIVATE PLAN … IN A COWARDLY DIVERSION FROM THE REPUBLICANS HAVING NO PRIVATE PLAN. AND HE SAID IT IN PUBLIC!!!

              ANYONE ELSE FUCK UP THIS FACT?

              A government plan is what we’ll get BECAUSE the Republicans have NO PRIVATE PLAN. And they FUCKED UP by rejecting the ORIGINAL (bipartisan) Obamacare … which had a PRIVATE alternative to a public option, that would have killed single-payer forever. Thank you Mitch McConnell and the dumbfucklicans.

              Anyone else confused that the ONLY alternative to a government plan is a … PRIVATE PLAN???

              Umm, that’s all there is ,… public and private!!! DUH

              1. Government (within this context) is “public”… A public private plan?

                Maybe Obamacare would’ve gotten it right if it was a PRIVATE DNC insurance company that had NOTHING to do with government.

    2. chemjeff radical individualist
      November.2.2019 at 7:25 am
      “Yeah, her plan is ridiculous.
      Now let’s compare it to the Republican plan…”

      Get the government the hell out of the health care market to lower the cost and improve access.
      You’ve asked that question thirty times and gotten the same answer thirty times; how much practice does it require to become this stoooopid?

      1. “Git gummint oiut is a GOAL … NOT A PLAN for doing it.

        HOW do you get government out?
        WHAT will replace it?
        HOW will it transition?
        HOW will you sell it to voters?
        Libertarians have answered all of those for at least 35 years … until the anti-gummit goobers in the last 15 years or so … who are now as useless as conservatards.

        For how much longer will you deny your FAILURE on this?

  40. It doesn’t matter what you call it just like Obama’s non-tax when he rammed Obamacare down our throats. You can not give everyone equal healthcare when 80% are going to foot the bill and the other 20% who will be paying nothing will usually be the ones using it the most. What happens when everyone wants to use the system equally? It will implode and the costs will rise substantially.

    Poca-huants-us, like the other Marxist candidates, is using health-care-for-all as a voting lure where a politician will promise the moon and deliver a marble. No government health care plan will work for the majority because of the abuse and waste that notoriously comes with just about any plan the government runs.

    Ultimately, unless the older crowd suddenly becomes much healthier, Medicare will meet a Titanic fate in the decades ahead. Or to survive, heath care will be severely rationed and you will be no better off than becoming your own doctor. (probably healthier to do in the long run anyway).

    1. “Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do.”
      –Benjamin Franklin

      “Complaining about a problem, without posing a solution, is whining.”
      -Theodore Roosevelt

      “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something”
      Plato

      “A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people’s business
      -Eric Hoffer

      “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”
      H. L. Mencken, US editor (1880 – 1956)

      “Mass movements do not need a god, but they do need a devil. Hatred unifies the True Believers.”
      -Eric Hoffer, “The True Believers” (1951)

      “Throughout human history, the worst moral atrocities have been committed by those manipulated to BELIEVE they are defending some “greater good” — the Collective, the State, the Master Race, the Party or a God. Zealots and fanatics. The militant self-righteous.”
      -Me (1994)
      (Trump is the enabler of the alt-right empowered by Ron Paul).

      Left – Right = Zero

        1. MAKE ME, PUNK.
          You’ve FAILED at it for over two years now.

          You’re like the 12-year old kid who yells “SHIT” on the school bus, an giggles.

          My six-year old grandchild has enough IQ to keep repeating “fuck off” a few hundred thousand times.

          1. Fuck off and die, Hihn. Maake the world a better and smarter place.

            1. Authoritarian stalking THUG … shouts down any and all disagreement … like a Berkeley snowflake … but the left does not also wish opposing views to be dead.

              Only the right, like Hitler, the folks who’ve been burning books and and censoring free speech for centuries … and PROUD to be fascists..

      1. “”“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do.”””

        Yeah, that pretty much sums up your posts.

  41. “What else would you call a requirement that employers send money to the federal government to finance a public program?”
    The usual felonious government theft under the color of law.
    In a consumer society, the government is a business and should be run like one. If they cannot make a profit legitimately, shut them down.
    That the richest nation on the planet does not have national care (Note: free is not mentioned) continues to make us the laughing stock of that world. Doctors, the AMA, and Big Pharma are the main reasons we do not have national health care. Perhaps Warren should put the whole burden on these individuals. ©2019

    1. Your ignorance of how SHITTY those other countries’ healthcare is … bespeaks your … ignorance.

      Canada’s medicare was declared an unconstitutional threat to human life in 2005 … citing all the Canadians dying on waiting lists of a year or more … plus their FAILURE to provide even a fraction of the costly diagnostic testing we provide. Millions of Canadians DIE from cancers which were NEVER discovered. My father was cured of colon cancer in the 1950s. As late as 2008, Canada STILL did not not pay for colonoscopies — and that is one of THE most deadly cancers. Canadian women under the age of 50 are only 1/3 as likely to have a mammogram, compared with US women.

      Google Chaoulli v Quebec and educate yourself with FACTS, not shameful partisan bullshit … ON HUMAN LIVES.

      Britain’s is even SHITTIER! THOUSANDS of Brits died NEEDLESSLY … rolled into empty hospital rooms and abandoned. Many were found dead in their own excrement.

      PROOF that you have been TOTALLY manipulated

      https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-keogh-report-blames-nurses-2058461
      “The revelations piled pressure on Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt to explain why since his Government came to power in 2010, more than 1,000 nurses have been axed from the struggling trusts at the centre of the scandal. … Mr Hunt told the Commons today that patients had been left unmonitored on trolleys for excessive periods … The report also said poor maintenance in North Cumbria led to two operating theatres being closed immediately”

      Same problem in both countries. Government health care means betting your life, literally, that politicians, facing tight budgets will … wait for it … always increase your taxes and NEVER cut your benefits. ARE YOU FOR REAL???

      Which is WHY our Medicaid is so tragically underfunded, much less than even Medicare, that more doctors refuse to take it … making Medicare eligibles THE most uninsured in America. MORE MEDICAID ELIGIBLES DIE .. UNINSURED … THAN ANY OTHER AMERICANS.

      Poor people don’t vote .. and even Democrats FUCKED them with Medicaid expansion. Millions of new eligibles…. NO MORE DOCTORS.. Medicaid enrollments are up because … wait for it … enrollment is now automatic, when uninsured show up in the ER. That’s a fucking bribe to hospitals … so now they’re enrolled, but STILL HAVE NO DOCTORS.

      If you really are a Doctor … you disgrace the Hippocratic Oath.

      1. PLUS Medicare is subsidized by over $300 billion per year from INCOME TAXES …. and another $150 billion FORCED from private insurers!!!The esteemed Mayo Clinic has REFUSED MEDICARE (for primary care) since 2010, citing losses of $840 million in 2009. They cannot report a loss unless they write the checks. So tell us, Doktor, WHERE DID MAYO GET $840 MILLION, WHEN THEIR ONLY POSSIBLE SOURCE IS TO OVERCHARGE PRIVATE INSURANCE?.

        Extrapolate Mayo’s loses across the entire Medicare population . and we get $150 billion per year. Likely more, since Mayo is recognized as one of THE most efficient providers in America.

        Do you also swallow the crazy shit that Medicare overhead is a much lower percentage than private insurance??

        Ready?

        Assume the full cost of processing a claim is $75. What percentage is that of fixing a broken leg, versus …. TRIPLE BYPASS SURGERY?

        But you’re NOT a sucker, manipulated by your ignorance. Compounded by your contempt for human life, as noted earlier.

        1. You truly are a pathetic and worn out shitbag.
          Fuck off and die.

          1. WHINY PUSSY ENRAGED BY PROVEN FACTS … LINKED TO SOURCES. WELCOME TO TRUMP’S FASCIST AMERICA.

  42. The last time I had private insurance through an employer, my monthly premiums were the equivalent of a week’s take-home pay, my deductible $1200 per person, per year, and I still couldn’t afford to take either myself or my kids to the doctor. No more premiums, no more deductibles or co-pays in exchange for slightly higher taxes and the peace of mind that comes with knowing we can have that lump, or that weird bruise, or that wound that doesn’t heal checked out in a timely manner? Bring it on. You’re the ones being dishonest.

    1. Nobody with any brains will swallow YOUR dishonesty.

      Never assume that GOP/libertarian STUPIDITY on health care is the only other alternative.

      Why was Cana

      1. “””Nobody with any brains will swallow YOUR dishonesty.””

        “Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do.”
        –Benjamin Franklin

    2. “No more premiums, no more deductibles or co-pays in exchange for !!!–slightly–!!! higher taxes” — What the heck ohdelilah..

      It’s just never HIGH enough is it!!! My living expenses last year Rent, Food, Electricity, Gas, Car Maintenance totaled $10,800… JUST my income tax was $12,200 (No other sales tax, other taxes JUST INCOME)…. That means last year I supported ENTIRELY a WHOLE other family…. Oh, but that’s not enough eh? Just a little more, and a little more, and a little more, and a little more…..

      You THIEVES make me sick and now I gotta go pay the doctor I can no longer afford before THIEVES have robbed me blind.

      1. Anyone with a lick of sense on the income tax knows you’re full of shit.

        You earned over $90,000 but spent less than $11,000 on living expenses … so spent only $900 a month on Rent, food, electricity and car maintenance …. AND YOU RENT WITH A $90,000 INCOME! …. .

        Taxes aren’t your problem. Money management is.

        AND YOU SPENT $900 A MONTH … BUT “THINK” AN ENTIRE FAMILY CAN BE SUPPORTED ON $100 MORE PER MONTH!

        1. TheLibertyTruthTeller
          November.2.2019 at 5:33 pm
          “Anyone with a lick of sense on the income tax knows you’re full of shit.”

          Anyone who can read knows you’re full of shit.

        2. Try $55K and I’m not the only one who pays a 23.6% Tax rate; actually I think its a pretty standard figure. $600 rent, $80 power, $150 food, $50 fuel… Your right though I was using my 2014 budget and I have purchased a home since then.

          Needless to say YES you can live on that in my super duper conservative State where we don’t pay a 25-cent per KWH for “green energy” and practice socialism.

          1. NOW HE GOES FULL PSYCHO!!!!

            Try $55K

            The IRS online calculator says you’re full of shit. PROOF follows … AGAIN (snort)

            and I’m not the only one who pays a 23.6% Tax rate;

            YEAH, everyone with gross income of prox $800,000 pays that rate … (Proof below) BWAAA HAAA HAAA.

            The MARGINAL marginal tax rate at $55k is ,… 22% .. which makes 23.6% BAT-SHIT CRAZY!.

            The AVERAGE rate for $50-75K for 2017, the most recent report is … wait for it …. 13% … so your off by OVER 100%! PROOF BELOW (pees pants laughing at you)

            Here’s that PROOF that you’re now full of MORE shit (which will drive Sevo INSANE!)
            IRS official data, chump.
            https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/17in11si.xls

            YOU ARE AS PSYCHO A LIAR AS SEVO … AND MAY EVEN BE ONE OF HIS SOCKS … AS PROVEN BY IRS DATA.

            As I said at the very start:

            Anyone with a lick of sense on the income tax knows you’re full of shit.

            I can now add ,… psycho.

            DAMN. I peed my pants laughing at you and Sevo AGAIN. 🙁

            1. You forgot S.S. and Medicare Tax… I also included State Tax for EOY income tax filing.

              But don’t let that stop you from displaying what a lunatic you are.

              1. (This response ,like my previous one, is in SELF-DEFENSE from MORE aggression, and an even CRAZIER lie)

                Uh-OH …. PRECIOUS SNOWFLAKE WAS … TRIGGERED AGAIN

                bullshit version

                You forgot S.S. and Medicare Tax

                ORIGINAL VERSION (SNEER)

                https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7995281

                … JUST my income tax was $12,200 (No other sales tax, other taxes JUST INCOME)…

                Why are ALL the Authoritarian Right PSYCHO LIARS?
                Same reason the Authoritarian Left is. It’s in their genes, the same mental defect that makes them authoritarian.

                REMINDER of how INSANE his original was

                and I’m not the only one who pays a 23.6% Tax rate;

                YEAH, everyone with gross income of prox $800,000 pays that rate … (Proof below) BWAAA HAAA HAAA.
                The MARGINAL (top) tax rate at $55k is ,… 22% .. which makes 23.6% (overall) BAT-SHIT CRAZY!.

                The AVERAGE rate for $50-75K for 2017, the most recent report is … wait for it …. 13% … so you’re off by OVER 100%! PROOF BELOW
                (pees pants laughing at you)

                THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM, CHUMP. IF YOU DON’T LIKE BEING RIDICULED …. STOP INVITING RIDICULE BY POSTING BAT-SHIT CRAZY LIES ,.. THEN DEFENDING THEM WITH TRULY PSYCHOPATHIC LIES … YOU POOR SENSITIVE SNOWFLAKE

                To see the civility of my original SUPPORTED ARGUMENTS (not personal attacks) , scroll back further to this date stamp: November.2.2019 at 5:33 pm (one link per post allowed here)

                1. Other Taxes as in — Gas Tax, Payroll Tax, Estate Tax, Sin Tax, Travel Tax, etc… etc… etc… AND Sales Tax which I gave as an Example to clarify.

                  But don’t let that stop you from displaying what a lunatic you are.

                  1. JUST my income tax was $12,200 (No other sales tax, other taxes JUST INCOME)…

                    JUST my income tax. JUST INCOME HIS caps (lol)

                    JUST my income tax. JUST INCOME

                    JUST my income tax. JUST INCOME

                    JUST my income tax. JUST INCOME

                    (It’s quite common for cyber-bullies to lie about their own words .. even when the words are clearly visible to reader … bullies being a subclass of Authoritarians, left and right.)

                    AGAIN: It was he who launched an unprovoked assault, from the gutter
                    To see the civility of my original SUPPORTED ARGUMENTS (not personal attacks) , scroll back further to this date stamp: November.2.2019 at 5:33 pm (one link per post allowed here)

                    To see the civility of my original SUPPORTED ARGUMENTS (not personal attacks) , scroll back further to this date stamp: November.2.2019 at 5:33 pm (one link per post allowed here)

                    1. I see now why Sevo just tells you to F-Off… There’s no point in this; “You said Truck not Pickup; Liar, Liar, Liar” B.S. My mistake — I didn’t know people considered their 1040 form an Income, Medicare, and Social Security Tax Form. How DARE I refer to it as JUST INCOME…

                    2. I TRIGGERED THE WHINY SNOWFLAKE … AGAIN!

                      How?

                      PROVED HIM A PSYCHO-LEVEL LIAR

                      AND DO SO NOW AGAIN!

                      My mistake — I didn’t know people considered their 1040 form an Income, Medicare, and Social Security Tax Form. How DARE I refer to it as JUST INCOME…

                      WTF?
                      SHAME ON YOU LYING ABOUT WORDS IMMEDIATELY ABOVE YOU

                      Boldface adjusted to enhance the ridicule. (in self-defense from MULTIPLE assaults) 🙂

                      JUST my income tax was $12,200 (No other sales tax, other taxes JUST INCOME)…

                      JUST my income tax. JUST INCOME. HIS caps (lol)

                      JUST my income tax. JUST INCOME.

                      JUST my income tax. JUST INCOME.

                      JUST my income tax. JUST INCOME.

                      Posted in defense of MULTIPLE assaults, by a PROVEN psycho liar.

                      I see now why Sevo just tells you to F-Off

                      OF COURSE. He’s as psycho as you are … ALSO lies about clearly visible words … Ask any psycho major, behavior caused by VERY deficient self esteem .. tiny ego … also see Donald J Trump!!!

                      REPEAT:

                      To see the civility of my original SUPPORTED ARGUMENTS (not personal attacks) …

                      https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7995227

                      Then, a quick scan of the thread .. will show NON-STOP lies  … as he sinks ever-deeper into …
                      psychopathy.

                      The Authoritarian Right, empowered and enabled by Donald J Trump 🙁
                      And a libertarian defending against multiple assaults.

                      (P.S. If we subtract FICA taxes, STILL not even close to his bogus 23.6% assertion. This is
                      like Hitler claiming to be Jewish!)

    3. “No more premiums, no more deductibles or co-pays in exchange for slightly higher taxes and the peace of mind that comes with knowing we can have that lump, or that weird bruise, or that wound that doesn’t heal checked out in a timely manner? Bring it on. You’re the ones being dishonest.”

      Canada had to legalize private insurance because their Supreme Court said that the waits for the treatments for the conditions you listed were SO long that they violated Canadians’ human rights.

      Yeah, the government will run things efficiently. Why, EVERYBODY wants VA coverage.

      1. What’s your alternative? Trump fucked up his. Libertarians haven’t had one in decades.

        Screaming about government … how’s that been workin’ for ya?

        ELIZABETH IS KICKING YOUR ASS, AMATEUR.
        After pushing her current plan, ANYTHING less will be seen as BETTER than it would have been otherwise … when a large majority of American will pay higher taxes, IF it provides universal coverage. (which they willingly paid for in a free market)

        PLUS, by going for everything. the polling tells them — AT NO COST — which parts to just dump.

        The Stalking Horse is walking all around your back.
        EDUCATE YOURSELF on how free-markers did it. And how to restore them.

  43. Just did some checking:
    There are ~630 billionaires in the US.
    Each of them will have to cough up $14Bn to hit fuaxcahontus’ fake number. I’m pretty sure that’s a lie about the annual costs, so they’ll have to do that annually.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP5XRxFgRlY
    If only….

    1. Your math sucks also!
      (snort)

      1. You’re full of shit, fuck off and die.

        1. FAILS TO DEFEND HIS MATH …. ANOTHER hissy fit!

  44. Funny…CNN is claiming that their polls show that Warren is leading in NH.

    …except their polls do NOT show that. CNN is actually lying about the results of their own polls.

    Wonder who the media is all in for…

  45. What’s your healthcare plan?

    Pay what the corporations tell you to pay, and if you can’t afford it, fuck off and die? Is that it? I thought so.

    Welcome to the next eight years, bitches.

    1. My health care plan is “The government cannot do anything competently. Look at the VA. Stop trying to look to them for any help”

      1. Typical right-wing nitwit. Thinks VA represents the entire federal government … and likely OUTRAGED that anyone could possibly disagree.

        1. The VA is, you know, SINGLE PAYER GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE.

          Seems to be a moderately valuable example of how the government handles such a thing.

          1. There is a difference between single payer and government run. The VA is directly run by the VA. They own, administer and employ everyone there. There is no cost to the patient. Nobody is endorsing that at this point.

            In single payer the government would have massive control but would not directly run the hospitals or employ providers. As in Medicare there are some things not covered and you can have deductibles and co pays in some systems. In Canada for example prescription drugs are not covered. You can buy that on your own.

            Universal health care is also not the same thing. There are many variations. In Israel for example there are four government sanctioned plans to choose from. Enrollment is mandatory and the organizations must accept anyone who applies. It is paid by a combination of payroll tax and government funds. It also does not pay for everything.

            The NHS is like the VA. Most systems are not.

          2. The VA is, you know, SINGLE PAYER GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE.

            ANOTHER cowardly diversion … TOTALLY NON-RESPONSIVE.
            Still a whiny pussy!!

        2. TheLibertyTruthTeller
          November.2.2019 at 5:37 pm
          “Typical right-wing nitwit. Thinks VA represents the entire federal government…”

          Typical fucking lefty ignoramus. No, it’s probably better than some portions, but only a lefty fucktard like you would care.

          1. DUMBFUCK THROWS A TOTALLY OFF THE RAILS HISSY FIT … SAYS I’M A LEFTY …. AFTER AGREEING WITH ME!!

            I AM DEFENDING FREE MARKET HEALTH CARE AT THIS LINK… AND ATTACKING SOCIALIZED MEDICINE IN CANADA THE UK .. AND OUR OWN MEDICARE …. LINKED TO PROOF, AS ALWAYS
            https://reason.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all-with-a-9-trillion-tax-that-will-hit-the-middle-class/#comment-7994990

            BWAAA HAAAA HAAAA 🙂

            TO ALT-RIGHT THUGS … EVERYONE WHO PROVES THEM AN PSYCHO IS A LEFTY!! … COMBINED WITH AN EQUALLY INFANTILE “FUCK OFF”

            Welcome to the Trump Gulag.

    2. One plan is do nothing and see what happens.

      Think like a surgeon. You have uncertain diagnosis. The treatment may well be worse than the disease. The patient is sick but not yet critical. Admit for observation.

      One strength in what we have now is that the costs and revenue come from multiple sources and there are multiple providers so it is redundant to some extent. If you reduce all of those to a single source it is more vulnerable to failure.

      I do think we will eventually end up with some kind of berniecare but I might be wrong about that. A wait and see approach may be the best one for now.

      1. One plan is do nothing and see what happens.

        A fucking massive loss … to the proggie left … A majority of voters ALREADY oppose your FAILURE … and how pathetic to defend being the new KNOW-NOTHING Party.

        Think like a surgeon.

        DO BRAIN SURGERY WITH … NO DEGREE … AND NO TRAINING?
        HOW MANY MOONS CIRCLE YOUR PLANET?

        i do think we will eventually end up with some kind of berniecare

        He’s winning by default! NO COMPETITION.

        It’s like a repeat of the MASSIVE GOP FUCKUP on Trumpcare … which achieved NOTHING … thus making Obamacare popular … because voters saw the GOP had been BULLSHITTING them for nearly a decade.

        VOTERS ARE THE REASON YOU NEED A PLAN.
        VOTERS ARE NOT IMPRESSED WITH RIGHT-WINGERS MASTURBATING ALL ALONE ATOP SOME IVORY TOWER

        YOU SEEM PROUD OF BEING TOTALLY HUMILIATED … A MAJORITY OF VOTERS WOULD PAY HIGHER TAXES, IF IT PROVIDED UNIVERSAL COVERAGE …

        But, “We don’t need no steenkeeeng plan to sell and reverse voters!”

        THEY CAN SEE GOP CONTEMPT FOR THEM.
        That REPUBLICANS are the most authoritarian party.

        1. “THEY CAN SEE GOP CONTEMPT FOR THEM.”

          Yeah, that’s the reason Trump was elected.
          The contempt is directed at lefty scum like you.

    3. Tony
      November.2.2019 at 4:09 pm
      “What’s your healthcare plan?…”

      Get the government the hell out of the health care market to lower the cost and improve access.
      You’ve asked that question thirty times and gotten the same answer thirty times; how much practice does it require to become this stoooopid?

      1. That is NOT a plan, goober.

        HOW to do it?
        HOW to do the transition?
        HOW will it effect various voter blocks?
        Just MINDLESS slogans of anti-gummint goobers.

        This is WHY liberty is getting CRUSHED among the voters.
        It’s the way you SNEER at them … NOTHING to persuade them, but mindless slogans to YOUR 15% of the electorate.

        Such all-consuming ARROGANCE.
        Shame on you.

        1. TheLibertyTruthTeller
          November.2.2019 at 9:24 pm
          “That is NOT a plan, goober….”

          Isn’t it wonderful when fucking lefty ignoramuses really don’t like something you offer and they, therefore, are soooopid enough to hope you’ll buy into the lie that ‘it’s not a plan’.
          Stuff it up your ass, Hihn; it’s a far better plan than anything fauxcahontas has offered, and if you are too stooopid to understand that, I’m not surprised.
          Fuck off and die.

    4. You don’t have to, “Pay what the corporations tell you to pay”… YOU can be the doctor or pay your doctor cash or De-Regulate and pay your neighbor who is a doctor.

      But rather do any of that – you want to pay a politician to be your doctor; someone who has ZERO experience and ZERO interest in your health. And ya know — that’s actually just fine. Your health your decision. What’s B.S. is you trying to FORCE everyone else to do the same stupid thing.

      1. WHAT KIND OF OF DUMBFUCK RETARD WOULD TELL VOTERS THAT BERNIE WOULD BE YOUR DOCTOR … WHEN THEIR DOCTOR WILL STILL BE THERE???

        THIS IS WHY VOTERS ARE REPULSED BY YOU AUTHORITARIAN THUGS.

        GET A GRIP … IF YOU EVEN STILL CAN.

        1. “WHAT KIND OF OF DUMBFUCK RETARD WOULD TELL VOTERS THAT BERNIE WOULD BE YOUR DOCTOR … WHEN THEIR DOCTOR WILL STILL BE THERE???”

          So along with ‘writing’ ransom notes, you’re now dedicated to proving you can’t *read* English?
          Fuck off and die, Hihn. You can make the world a better and smarter place.

        2. Why in the hell do you want to pay Bernie for your Doctor’s work then!!! Why don’t you just pay me – I promise, “You can keep your doctor” too…..

          Come on man — I’m an authoritarian thug; you better pay me or else my clan of IRS mobsters will arrest you and contain you and
          ….. wait… wait….
          No – that’s actually Bernie’s plan now isn’t it… See – he does actually become your doctors service (be a mediator or not) now isn’t he…….

          You want to be someone else’s stooge, a puppet; Hey, help yourself just don’t drag me into your enslavement camp.
          slaver!

  46. “But what else would you call a requirement that employers send money to the federal government to finance a public program”

    You call it the exact same thing that you call it now when employers send money to insurance company bureaucrats to finance healthcare – which I notice is not “taxes.”

    Who was it again, the other day, who was whining about Conservatives doubling down on their lies?

    Oh, wait a sec, that was you guys (and gals) here at (allegedly) “Reason”: https://reason.com/2019/11/01/texas-gov-greg-abbott-spreads-fake-news-about-austin-homelessness/

    1. Kuni: Please look up the word “tax.” It doesn’t mean “any payment made to anybody.” It means a payment made to a government under compulsion. A true statement does not become a lie because you invent your own definitions for its terms.

      1. Thanks for calling out Kuni’s gooberosity!

        1. P.S. User fees the most obvious example of his misinformed distortions.

      2. Oh, I forgot to add (if my previous response makes it past the censor – something appears to have triggered the snowflake anti-free speech filter):

        Speaking of looking up definitions.

        I recommend that Conservatives (and idiot young people, and old farts who should know better) look up the definition for the system of Socialism before shooting off their gates when it comes to calling a mixed market economy, aka Capitalism, “Socialism” (or in the case of idiot young people, and old farts who should know better, “Democratic Socialism.”)

        The system of Socialism has NO private property – none, nada, zip, zilch. While one can argue what the proper level of government participation in the economy is, calling it Socialism is lunacy of the highest order.

  47. Unfortunately which payment scheme is better is like rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. The big issue is there is NOTHING free market about he supply of health services or medicines.

    Had to pay out of pocket for some medical service and there is NO PRICE TRANSPARENCY WHATSOEVER. Just FORGET about price shopping over the phone since few doctors will give it. After investing in four appointments and paying fees, I got four price quotes after great effort. In Germany i hear that all prices for procedures ARE POSTED PER LAW. Good luck getting such a law here passes with the physician lobby.

    And the larger issue is the tight control of physicians where many who want to perform these services are not allowed. Milton Friedman said we should get rid of licensing of physicians. Despite many Americans competing with cheap foreign workers, there is little completion in medical services they consume unless you travel overseas. Also medication monopolies and cross- deals in big pharma reduce the free market for medicines.

    It’s really the EXORBITANT PRICES from lack of competition that’s the real issue. EITHER the field is radically DEREGULATED (not saying this is the best option) OR regulations are created to COUNTERACT the power of the medical monopolies that are driving the health care system to unaffordability.

    1. I think years of political bills that disconnected the customer from the payment is what left the medical industry without a price tag which essentially created a unlimited price. Same thing happened with education when FAFSA was passed. No one cares what the price tag is until it’s too late.

  48. Only a moron could think that importing tens of millions of low-IQ mestizos and Africans will improve America, either culturally or economically.
    خرید تجهیزات شبکه

    1. And only a raging bigot would BULLSHIT on what the issue is.
      And speaking of low IQs. how’d we get stuck with your ilk?

    2. And your proof that these migrants are low IQ, is where?

      And now you know why the Corporate Caliphate wants to replace you with illiterate Central Americans – illiteracy can be fixed but there is no cure for bat sh!t bug fu@k insane.

  49. . . . Elizabeth Warren Wants To Pay for Medicare for All With a $9 Trillion Tax That Will Hit the Middle Class . . .

    But she says the Middle Class taxes will not be raised one Cent, if you can believe her. I wonder if she get elected if she could be impeached for lying to the voters? No, I guess not because if she could so could every president ever elected.

    1. But she says the Middle Class taxes will not be raised one Cent, if you can believe her.

      Blowhard speaks about that which he knows NOTHING.

      All her taxes are elsewhere. The rich, wealth tax, etc.
      Did you get snookered by Reson’s false reporting here?

      1. Hard for me to follow all your comments on this thread, but I believe you’d like to see wide adoption of co-op HMO plans. Am I correct in assuming you want to end employer provided health insurance (with its tax-code quirks)? If that’s the case – then what will the transition look like? Also, will the co-op HMO plans accept all new members – even those with current health issues? Then there are questions about “in- network” and out of network. A given HMO will have its list of doctors and hospitals – but would there be any coverage to see another doctor? Some specialty hospitals and their affiliated doctors have reputations for being much better than others for certain illnesses – like cancer. Perhaps insurance companies will fill that gap with supplemental plans for those with your co-op HMO deal. Putting those questions aside, your are correct in saying the GOP has no plan – and our health insurance system is crumbling. Medicare will be broke (although an increase in payroll tax will keep it going). Small to medium sized employers providing health insurance to their workers are getting crushed, with employee premiums and deductibles increasing. Medicaid continues to have the real problem of few doctors willing to see Medicaid patients. Every health care system rations care in one way or another. I don’t know the best path towards radically improving our health care financing approach (which is really what our insurance plus Medicare system is – an inefficient financing approach) – but I also know that no other country wants to emulate our messed up system.

      2. “Blowhard speaks about that which he knows NOTHING.”
        Hihn lies about any and every subject.

        “All her taxes are elsewhere. The rich, wealth tax, etc.”
        You.
        Are.
        Full.
        Of.
        Shit.

  50. The nicest thing about these communized programs to keep medical licensing on the side of monopoly and prohibition is the constant ringing from telemarketers pushing mandatory insurance and overpriced drugs. Telephones have become an instrument of Orwellian torture.

  51. Warren and 99.7% of the left don’t realize that taxes always hit the middle class. Taxes usually hit the poor too, and sometimes the rich. But they always hit the middle class.

    The problem with the rich is that there aren’t enough of them. The problem with the poor is that they don’t have any money. So the target is always the middle class.

  52. I’m disappointed that Warren proposed this plan. But I am also upset that the media pressured her into this dumb position.

    She’s right to point out that costs should go down. If the GOP did not throw monkey wrenches into any plan she comes up with she could drive down costs and the employer taxes should result in higher take-home pay with coverage anywhere in the US. But it was dumb to couple employers with employee health. That was the original sin in our screwed up health-care system. When we allowed for tax-free benefits it created this system. Employers should have their taxes raised regardless of workers. Taxes should go up on all kinds of things to pay for it. We just need to make sure those raised taxes do not go beyond what we would have been paying in premiums. Also, we need to make sure that employers pass on savings to workers in the form of higher wages. In other words, while their taxes will go up, if they come out with higher net profits, after the new taxes, employees should see a share of that. That’s the tough part though.

    1. I agree that the tax-code quirk related to employer provided health insurance was the original sin in our screwed up system. Having said that – I think we have to acknowledge that it has helped finance a lot of new medical technology, new treatments, life-saving drugs, etc. – along with plenty of profits for big pharma and so on. The USA has led the world in medical breakthroughs for many decades.

    2. “”She’s right to point out that costs should go down.””

      That’s what they said about the ACA. I’ve had fun making my brother eat his words because he said the ACA would save money.

    3. Heraclitus
      November.4.2019 at 10:19 am
      “…She’s right to point out that costs should go down…”

      She’s full of shit.

      1. BREAKING NEWS:
        Sevo demands HIGHER medical costs

  53. Warren’s plan description is VERY reminiscent of one of Obama’s first official acts. He designed the SCHIP tax with HRC that raised taxes on cash-strapped “Roll Your Own” smokers — it raised the tax from $1/lb to $24/lb, over a 2,000% tax increase — and then declared on the Today Show that he hadn’t actually taxed any “people” since being elected. After all, they were just smokers. See the 20 second clip at: pro-choicesmokingdoctor.blogspot.com/2009/07/obama-in-bare-faced-lie.html
    Watch it, and then don’t be so surprised if Warren wins just as handily as Obama with that style!

    – MJM, who believes SCHIP played a real role in HRC’s 2016 defeat.

  54. Nice Blog….

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  55. My expensive private health insurance allowed by my employer($4000 family out of pocket limit with huge premiums) just allowed a hospital to bill >$900 for an emergency room visit by my daughter at an “in-network” hospital. It’s called “balance billing”. One of the doctors my daughter saw was out-of-network even though the hospital was advertised as in-network. I made a huge fuss, called the attorney general for mediation and they eventually paid it after I was billed 3 times by the hospital.

    I’m sure lots of people would have rolled over and paid it. I’m not terribly fond of my insurance provider, but I’d need to switch jobs to get a different one.

  56. Nice Blog… Thanks for sharing…

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