Impeachment

Trump's Ukraine Call May Not Be Impeachable, but It Sure Looks Like an Abuse of Presidential Power

Trump used the power of the presidency for personal political gain.

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The Democrats' latest drive to impeachment rests on a single, relatively straightforward accusation: that in a July phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, President Donald Trump improperly urged the foreign leader to investigate Trump's domestic political rival, Joe Biden, and Biden's family—perhaps holding up foreign aid in an attempt to pressure a foreign government into creating a scandal in hopes of gaining a political advantage in advance of the 2020 election.

It increasingly appears that this allegation is true. 

For starters, we know that Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, pressured Ukraine to investigate the Biden family, because Giuliani—shortly after denying the charge—admitted to doing so on national television.  

The Wall Street Journal, meanwhile, reported that in the July call, Trump himself pressured the Ukrainian leader to investigate the Biden family's dealings in the country, raising the issue eight separate times. 

Over the weekend, Trump appeared to admit he had raised the issue, linking the conversation, which he says was about "corruption," to Biden and his son, saying, "The conversation I had was largely congratulatory, was largely corruption, all of the corruption taking place, was largely the fact that we don't want our people, like Vice President Biden and his son, creating to the corruption already in the Ukraine."

Trump further insisted that "there was no quid pro quo, there was nothing." But this morning, The Washington Post reported that nearly $400 million in military aid for Ukraine had been withheld just days before the call occurred. Trump had personally ordered his chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, to hold up the funds. 

This, in turn, raises two questions: Why would Trump put a hold on the funds? And did he have the authority to do so? 

The money had been authorized by Congress earlier in the year, and under the Constitution, Congress has the sole power of the purse. This is why the Obama administration's decision to spend Obamacare funds that Congress had not authorized was illegal. A president can neither spend unauthorized funds, nor decline to spend funds that Congress has authorized. 

Yet Trump not only paused the payments, but he gave no clear reason why, instructing administration officials "to tell lawmakers that the delays were part of an 'interagency process' but to give them no additional information," according to the Post. The payments weren't made until mid-September. 

So Trump personally pressured a foreign government to work with his personal lawyer to gin up what he hoped would be a politically beneficial scandal. Simply making that request, with no strings attached, would be inappropriate. But shortly before that, he personally held up federal funds that were set to go to that country—possibly in violation of the Constitution—and told his subordinates not to explain why. 

Zelensky, however, appears to have understood the reason. Sen. Chris Murphy (D–Conn.) said this week that in an early September conversation, Zelensky expressed direct concerns that "the aid that was being cut off to Ukraine by the president was a consequence" of his refusal to investigate the Bidens. 

One might be skeptical of Murphy's story. He is, after all, a Democratic senator. But I am inclined to believe him, for two reasons. First, if it were not true, Zelensky could publicly dispute it. And second, it's simply not surprising that Zelensky would understand the funding delay to be tied to Trump's request for an investigation into the Bidens; when the president of the United States calls a foreign leader and asks for a personal favor at precisely the same time that funding for that leader's country has been put on hold, the obvious conclusion would be that the two events are linked.  

So no, there may not have been an explicit quid pro quo. Trump may not have expressly said the disbursement of the funds was conditioned on the launch of a Ukrainian investigation into the Bidens. But even if there was no explicit threat, there was still presidential pressure coming at a time when money was on the line—and when Trump had personally delayed the funds.

This paints a disturbing picture. It very much looks like Trump used the power of his office—the most powerful political office in the country and the world—in an attempt to boost his personal political fortunes. The evidence so far, in other words, suggests that Trump did the thing he is being accused of doing, or something very much like it. 

There may still be more we don't know. The whistleblower complaint that launched this story has not yet been made public, and it appears to have been based on indirect information rather than firsthand knowledge. Trump has said that the transcript of the call would show no quid pro quo; we have not yet seen the transcript. It would be useful to have all of this information on the record. 

But we already know enough to draw some tentative conclusions. And presuming the events unfolded roughly as has been reported so far, then Trump has done something that no president should do. 

Indeed, if the reports are accurate, he attempted to do something that he spent the last three years insisting he didn't do in 2016—work directly (one might even say "collude") with a foreign government to influence an American election to his own benefit. And he did it from the perch of elected office. This was, by all indications, an abuse of presidential power for personal gain. 

Whether this constitutes an impeachable offense is a question that House Democrats will now have to decide. It is worth remembering, however, that impeachment is not necessarily a conclusion; it is a process, the vehicle set forth by the Constitution for determining whether a president has committed acts that might justify removal from office. And those acts do not necessarily have to be criminal in nature. As Rep. Justin Amash (I–Mich) tweeted earlier this year in a thread making the case that the Mueller report justified action, "Impeachment, which is a special form of indictment, does not even require probable cause that a crime (e.g., obstruction of justice) has been committed; it simply requires a finding that an official has engaged in careless, abusive, corrupt, or otherwise dishonorable conduct." Judge Andrew Napolitano, a Fox News legal analyst who has sometimes tangled with Trump, recently made the case that Trump's attempts to influence Ukraine constitute an "act of corruption" worse than anything uncovered during the Mueller investigation. 

Impeachment proceedings would almost certainly drown out discussion of other issues. There is a risk impeachment could backfire politically, which is probably why Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D–Calif.) has resisted it so far. Democrats, many of whom have been itching to impeach since Trump took office, run a real risk of looking like they have merely latched onto the latest controversy in order to justify a partisan action they already wanted to pursue. And should the process result in an impeachment trial, it would be held on Trump-friendly turf, in the GOP-controlled Senate. It's hard to imagine that the final result would be his removal. 

All of which is to say that the question of impeachment is, unavoidably, a political question, and it will be resolved by political actors based on political considerations. But the question of what Trump did, and whether it was appropriate, is one that we can answer with reasonable confidence. And the answer does not make Trump look good. 

NEXT: Even Social Engineers Don't Want Their Kids Used as Demographic Pawns

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    1. Who ignores that Giuliani was ASKED by the State Department to talk to the Ukrainian government. So this isn’t shadow dimplomacy. Unlike Gigolo John Kerry.

      1. Why would the president’s personal lawyer, private citizen Rudy, be asked to negotiate with a foreign government?

        Would you think that was cool if it was Obama?

        1. Um it was. Who do you think sent Biden fuckhole?

          1. Lololol his idiot ass FORGOT BIDEN DID IT AHAHAJAJAJAHA

          2. Biden, the vice president of the United States?

            1. President Obama sends official representative.

              President Trump sends official representative.

              Lolololo you stupidly fucking forgot who sent Biden ahahahajajaj

              1. (you can see the wheels turning in Tony’s head, while he tries to figure out how to avoid looking stupid, my money is that he retardedly tries to draw a distinction that makes no sense and holds no water, let’s watch)

              2. It’s not corruption when Vice Presidents do it.

                Or something.

                1. Brian, is it corruption when the President does it?

                  1. It’s corruption if Trump does it.

                2. It’s not corruption when it’s not corruption.

                  Do you people give any amount of effort to figure out what’s going on?

                  1. I know exactly how truisms work.

        2. Why would the president’s personal lawyer, private citizen Rudy, be asked to negotiate with a foreign government?

          Why wouldn’t he? Private citizens, as well as government officials, are perfectly entitled to, and, in some cases, required to report potentially illegal conduct to foreign governments.

          Would you think that was cool if it was Obama?

          I think it would have been very cool if Obama had reported Hunter Biden’s or Hillary Clinton’s corruption to foreign governments where they acted corruptly. I would have a lot more respect for the man if he had done so.

        3. Wow it sure looks like you should have waited to see the transcript. Perhaps you should also learn more about the facts around the event. I only wish that Dems would look into Slo-Joe’s appearance of conflict of interest into his Drug addict son’s sleazy hedge fund and his involvement in Burisma and China.

          1. Pot. Kettle. Black. Your own disgust with “facts” may be worse than even Trump’s.

    2. This is all ridiculous speculation. Nobody commenting has actually seen the “whistleblower’s ” statement. The argument right now is about deciding how many angels can fit on the head of a pin without knowing the size of the pinhead or if angels are actually material beings. Arguing and/or theorizing without facts is useless and a waste of intellectual energy.

    3. Suderman suffers from Confirmation Bias and lack of evidence.
      “appears’ ‘looks like’ are not evidence.
      This guy is an editor ?

      1. Suderman is an undercover agent for the Swamp.Does Reason really man this guy to regurgitate lies?

  1. hahahaha. Biden uses his position to commit extortion and brags about it. Crickets. Trump uses his position to commit extortion this is the Rubicon.

    1. Biden’s “extortion” was following the anti-corruption policy of the White House, State Department, European Union, World Bank, International Monetary Fund. It was also applauded by every reformist group in Ukraine itself.

      Trump’s “extortion” was a strong-arm scheme cooked-up by him and his buffoon attorney Giuliani to help Trump’s reelection.

      This is pretty clear to everybody not a Toady for Trump. It’s probably clear to them too, but the poor things have to pretend otherwise……

      1. “Biden’s “extortion” was following the anti-corruption policy of”

        “Biden was just following orders”

          1. Better than OK : Outstanding, in fact. The man Biden helped elbow out was the major roadblock to reforming Ukraine’s corrupt judicial system. The European Union wanted him fired because he single-handedly prevented implementation of legal reforms pressed on Ukraine in 2014. Reform groups in Ukraine wanted him fired because he blocked prosecution on any officials from the deposed Yanukovych regime, which had looted the country. That’s why their were street demonstrations in Kiev demanding Viktor Shokin be ousted. They cheered what Biden helped accomplish, as he followed the official government policy of the President, White House, and State Department.

            But no one in Ukraine is applauding Trump’s sleaze, are they? Even the most abject Trumpian bootlicker in this country can’t really believe DJT was motivated by concern over “corruption” in Ukraine; it most be obvious to the Ukrainians Trump is trying to use their country for another one of his petty scams. Even a graduate of Trump University can’t miss something that obvious.

            1. “grb
              September.24.2019 at 2:39 pm
              Better than OK : Outstanding, in fact”

              Committing bribery and extortion is outstanding because the IMF said so.

              He actually said this.

              1. Awh …….. Snowflake tears over poor Viktor Shokin !!!

                Never have I beheld so touching a sight. Trump’s toady’s are outdoing themselves today in clownish hypocrisy……..

                1. Thank God you finally realized you lost and descended into stupid crying, if I had to ignore one more giant stupid wall of text…

                  1. I’m sensing a shift in Trumpish-weaseling here. Seems like the toadies have abandoned their meme of Biden forcing out Shokin to protect Hunter. Understandably. Biden’s actions were official U.S. government policy – also following the aim of every major institution of the western democracies – also per the wishes of reformists in Ukraine itself.

                    Kinda hard to squeeze little Hunter Biden into that tally of facts, isn’t it? But apparently Trump’s dead-enders are so determined to get at Joe they will trash everything in the way : Ukrainian reformists, the U.S. government, the European Union – everything being corrupt except ( I pause to chortle) the holy martyr Viktor Shokin……

                    Ain’t that hilarious? And where does it leave Trump anyway? The thinking seems to be this : If Biden is held as mean&hurtful to Victor, then Everybody-Does-It, therefore Trump isn’t responsible for his actions. And that’s what the deadenders are reduced to…..

                    1. Right we get it.

                      “grb
                      September.24.2019 at 2:39 pm
                      Better than OK : Outstanding, in fact”

                      Committing bribery and extortion is outstanding because the IMF said so.

                    2. “Biden’s actions were official U.S. government policy – also following the aim of every major institution of the western democracies – also per the wishes of reformists in Ukraine itself”

                      Which totally excuses the crimes he committed.

                      “Kinda hard to squeeze little Hunter Biden into that tally of facts, isn’t it? ”

                      Not really. Are you retarded?

                      ” If Biden is held as mean&hurtful to Victor, then Everybody-Does-It, therefore Trump isn’t responsible for his actions”

                      Ah you are an idiot. People are talking crimes. You avoid that because if there are any crimes, Biden committed more than Trump. So you cry about being mean because the truth is too difficult for you to swallow.

                2. Better get off mommy’s computer and get back in the basement before she gets home.

            2. If everybody wanted this guy out, why would they have waited until Crazy Uncle Joe threatened to withhold a billion dollars in loan guarantees if he wasn’t fired?
              If he was as bad as all the 0blama-suckers say, it shouldn’t have taken that much to get him fired.
              Biden used our money to influence a foreign government to do something they, obviously, didn’t want to do.
              And the same fools are just accepting that Trump threatened the new Ukrainian president to get the investigation re-opened, when both people involved have said it didn’t happen.

              1. Pay attention, puppets. Biden’s “extortion” was part of a call by many countries and organizations to replace a corrupt prosecutor, who was ignoring most of the corruption in Ukraine.

                Umm, do you recall TRUMP commenting on all the corruption there .. before his latest wacko conspiracy (on Biden)?

      2. anti-corruption policy of the White House, State Department, European Union, World Bank, International Monetary Fund.

        You do realize that each of those organizations are rife with corruption.

      3. Except, with Biden’s son being someone who was potentially under investigation by Ukraine, Biden was the most inappropriate person to use by the Obama administration to send that message. At the very least, this sho UK led put a cloud over Biden as well.

        1. Fair point, even though the “threat” to Biden’s son is sketchy at best. Personally, what raises my hackles is this : Even if Hunter Biden was comfortable earning cheap money off Daddy’s name, you’d think he’d still stay clear of the cesspool that is Ukraine. As for Joe, he clearly had a clear conscious – given the relish which he’s recounted his role in Shokin’s firing multiple times – but a bit more subtlety would have shown a lot more wisdom. Alas, Joe doesn’t do subtlety very well……

          1. “Even if Hunter Biden was comfortable earning cheap money off Daddy’s name, you’d think he’d still stay clear of the cesspool that is Ukraine.”

            Cesspools are where that’s easiest to pull off, didn’t you realize that?

            1. For you or me – sure, Brett. But for a Senator’s son the opportunities for scoring easy cash should be more profuse & diverse. I would have thought the pick’ns would be so sweet you could turn down the more rancid options. Apparently Hunter made out for a while with MBNA, a company I had a tangential relationship with way back in the day. They collected all manner of people in their employ, from ex-FBI head Louis Feeh, to ex-professional hockey player Roger Crozier.

      4. What Trump extortion are you referring to?
        You mean Biden is assigned the task to spearhead our relationship with the Ukraine and his drug addict privileged son gets a $600K a year board posting on the largest Natural Gas in the Ukraine by a corrupt oligarch knowing full well Biden’s son knows nothing about energy, hedge funds but a great deal about sex with homeless people.

        1. You people swallow anything. regardless how wacky.
          Like Bernie’s and Elizabeth’s bots.
          Left – Right = Zero

      5. I’m amused because you excuse Biden for following White House policy, but then accuse Trump who happens to be the one which would make White House policy. If the same action excuses one, it excuses both.

        Giuliani should be investigated via the Logan act if he acted on the matter as Trumps personal lawyer.

        Other than that, you’re bias is showing.

        1. (lol) Giuliani ADMITS doing it to help Trump get re-elected.
          AND Ukraine had been pressured since (at least) mid-May.

          Speaking of bias … lol … why should only Rudy be prosecuted, fow what you admit would Trump’s illegal acts???

  2. Oh, this is it, we finally got him. This is the beginning of the end. The Walls are Closing In. The Net is Closing.

    1. Life for the Trump haters is such an emotional roller-coaster. First the joy of a newly manufactured scandal that will bring him down and then the anguish when it’s exposed as just more bullshit.

      I’m eagerly anticipating the complete emotional breakdown that will engulf the left when Trump wins in 2020. Their trauma will be so sweet.

      1. Honestly, I’m kind of scared shitless of it. When we look how unhinged people became in 2016, imagine a second Trump administration.

        1. The left will start killing people for badthink and Maga caps, with the full and throaty approval of the New York Times and Washington Post.

      2. It helps that almost all (at least that I know) are on multiple forms of psychotropic drugs. It helps make sense of a senseless and cruel world full of microaggression.

  3. “But even if there was no explicit threat, there was still presidential pressure”

    And? LITERALLY EVERYTHING HE DOES CAN BE CONSTRUED AS PRESSURE GOD DAMMIT WHAT THE FUCK HAS HAPPENED TO YOU PEOPLE

    1. It’s worse than that. It was pressure through a third party.
      We all know how menacing Rudy can be over the phone.

    2. It felt very pressur-y.

  4. Trump’s Ukraine Call May Not Be Impeachable, but It Sure Looks Like an Abuse of Presidential Power

    Hahaha. Suderman.

    Anything is impeachable. Its a political means for Congress to remove Executive Branch and Judicial Branch politicians and bureaucrats.

    Lefties are still so desperate that Trump will be reelected.

    1. “Lefties are still so desperate that Trump will be reelected.”

      Wrong. Democrats are a lock to win the White House in 2020. And when I’m celebrating, I’ll take a break to remind you of your dumb predictions.

      1. Zeb’s been really down on you lately. What’s that’s about.

        1. Not my problem. I’m not going anywhere. I’ll outlast Zeb just like I outlasted “Chipper Morning Baculum” who constantly posted about the CHINESE ROOM.

      2. Trump is a loon, but the leading Democrats (save Biden) are pushing way too far to the left. I suspect plenty of voters are suspicious of how Medicare-for-All will impact them, how all the other things like cancelled student debt, free college, and many of the job destroying plans favored by Warren and Sanders will pan out.

    2. “Lefties are still so desperate that Trump will be reelected.”

      Mr. “Red Wave 2018” has spoken.

      Again.

      As has been customary throughout his disaffected, fringe-inhabiting life, however, the only people devoting any attention to his thoughts are downscale, shambling, no-count clingers.

      1. Ahahahahah I made you use disaffected again ahahahah I fucking own you Ahajahahahahaahja

        I FUCKING TOLD YOU EXACTLY THIS WOULD HAPPEN AHAHAHAHAJAJAHHA

        1. Ahahahahah he’s totallyacting out because AI mocked him for letting me make him stop using it ahahahahahahahahahahahh

          Ahahahahahahah thank you sooooooo much I’ve never been this successful owning someone ever ahahahahahaahahahah

      2. How do you imagine you come across?

        1. Insightful. To those who matter.

    3. This rumor is credible, bigly creditable.

    4. This rumor is credible, bigly credible.

  5. So you’re saying that a US President cannot, under ANY circumstances, investigate illegal actions of political actors and that Obama colluded with the UK to damage the Trump campaign.

    1. (laughing) Nobody says that. Try another lame alibi.

  6. So… if Biden were not a political rival, would it be appropriate for the POTUS to pressure other countries to investigate allegations of criminal behavior?

    And if so, is POTUS supposed to recuse himself from everything involving a Democrat?

    1. Umm, on what evidence was Trump acting upon?
      (lol)

  7. A politician used his/her power for personal political gain? Do tell!!! I realize that trying to pull strings with leaders of other countries should probably be done more above board, but any politician that hasn’t used his/her power for personal political gain didn’t get re-elected.

    1. Foreign aid funds were used to extract political favors from foreign officials, so we learned our lesson and stopped authorizing foreign aid payments.

      LOL — foreign aid funds are slush from elected legislators and the executive branch all the way down to the gov employees who fly internationally in business class twice a month to deliver and oversee the use of the funds, and not just in the State Dept. Any agency worth its salt has a program capable of brokering these transactions.

  8. I’m wondering if the Democrats will really impeach or just try to keep this in the headlines without really committing to anything, for the sake of putting a vague cloud over Trump without having to prove anything.

    1. First comes the investigation, fueled by subpoenas, inherent contempt power, and the general shambling nature of everything associated with Donald Trump.

      Impeachment might follow, ideally depending on the investigation results. I doubt Republicans would vote to convict, because clingers gonna cling to the bitter end . . . especially when they know a bitter end is all they can expect.

      1. Ahahahahah I made you use disaffected again ahahahah I fucking own you Ahajahahahahaahja

        I FUCKING TOLD YOU EXACTLY THIS WOULD HAPPEN AHAHAHAHAJAJAHHA

        1. How is your therapy going?

  9. For the sake of argument, say Trump is impeached and removed.

    He continues to run in 2020, and wins. Can he serve? The constitution doesn’t have a ‘never been impeached’ restriction on Presidential Candidates.

    And, wouldn’t the fallout for the GOP senate for removing him be overwhelmingly negative, as there’d have to be, what, at least 13 or so Republicans to vote to convict?

    1. Yes, he can run and serve. And I’ll have to look this up, but impeachment doesn’t mean removed. Impeachment is the process, removal is the potential result.

      1. Yes, impeached is the house action, and removal is (possible) after conviction in the senate.

        Hmm, what if impeached, convicted and censured? That’d piss off pretty much everyone, Dem’s for not removing Bad Orange Man, Rep’s for not standing by their guy. A lose – lose.

        So, as that is the most likely to lead to widespread mockery and ridicule, I assume that is what our elite political elites and graduates of elite colleges will do: Impeach, Convict and Do Nothing of Import.

        1. House votes to impeach.

          Then either McConnell refuses to bring to a vote…

          or he does bring it to a vote and the Democrats accuse him of doing it for political reasons.

      2. Removal plus disqualification from holding federal office.

    2. Yes, if he was impeached AND convicted, he couldn’t serve in any position in the government ever again. That’s right there in the impeachment clause: “Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States;”

      And more like 20. It would be political suicide, if they couldn’t find any charges more serious than this joke.

      1. So how’d Alcee Hasting get into Congress? Is that a specific penalty?

        1. Provisions of the Constitution don’t enforce themselves, you know. Lots of things that are contrary to the Constitution happen routinely. But it’s possible that the provision has been interpreted as allowing that disability, not mandating it. I’m not sure on that point.

          1. On its face “shall not extend further than” speaks to maximum penalty rather than mandatory penalty.

            But interpretive fuckery being what it is, who knows?

        2. Yes, it’s given separately. But so what? Dead people have been “elected”. The president installed in office is the one who gets the majority of electors’ votes of those who are eligible to hold the office.

        3. Did the Senate invoke the disqualification penalty with regard to Judge Hastings? Apparently not.

      2. That’s a limit. Not a minimum. They could remove him from office without banning him from further service.

    3. That’d be so sweet — the voters thumbing their noses at Congress. They mostly don’t vote against their own representatives and senators (although this time they might), but given the opportunity to vote against the entire body, they probably would.

      And it’d be sweet no matter how it’s spun. If it’s an affirmation of Trump, fine because that’s also a rejection of Congress. If it’s a vote against whomever the Democrats nominate, even better, saying the best the Democrats have to offer is worse than a convict.

      1. Do you genuinely believe there are enough superstitious slack-jaws, disaffected losers, and uneducated bigots left in America to fuel another Trump election?

        1. Ahahahahah I made you use disaffected again ahahahah I fucking own you Ahajahahahahaahja

          I FUCKING TOLD YOU EXACTLY THIS WOULD HAPPEN AHAHAHAHAJAJAHHA

        2. “”disaffected losers,”‘

          So you do count Hillary fans!

          1. Left -Right = Zero
            That’s why a growing majority of Americans now rejects any loyalty to both clown-cars-filled-with-dutiful-puppets-of-the-ruling-elite.

        3. I do think that there are enough rank and file Americans who are “doing pretty well, thank you” under the status quo, who are afraid of the economic consequences of electing one of the current Democratic candidates.

          A reasonably charismatic, preferably Midwestern, moderate would send Don back to Queens. You could probably polish up Klobuchar, emphasize the farm roots, shut up about trillions in new spending and the D’s would own the white house.

          But no, the left edge of the party assumes that everyone is as consumed with Trump hate as they are, so they think they can’t lose. Thus they push for a candidate who promises full implementation of the socialist wing agenda, thinking this election is a lock.

          But it isn’t. Trump is a douche, unrefined, and obnoxious as hell, terrible on trade, but the country isn’t going to hell from the ground level view. Unemployment is low, wages are creeping up, interest rates and inflation aren’t bad. A sharp left turn is a hard sell right now, because a lot of people don’t see any truth in the Dems claims that we’re in desperate need of one.

          Its the economy, stupid.

          If the Dems said “were not going to change all that much, but we’ll get that Oaf out of office, end the trade war, and being civility to Washington,” it would be easy. Then they could resume the steady leftward push they have applied for two generations. But no, they want it all. Now.

          1. Did you miss how Trump has already added more 8-year debt than Obama added AFTER 8 years? Despite Trump inheriting the longest recovery ever for an incoming President — from Obama, who’d inherited the second worst economy since the 1930s.

            Unemployment is “low” for the same reason Trump ridiculed Obama’s — people abandoning the labor force! Trump’s labor participation keeps bouncing around what he started with … NO improvement, which is fucking scary, Low labor participation in one of the longest “recoveries” ever??? BAD.

            Consumer confidence is high … but only in the short term. Even Fox reports that a majority of Americans believe America is heading in the wrong direction.

            Republicans repeatedy fuck up on health care, STILL have nothing, and have made Obamacare more popular than ever. Don’t forget their biggest fuckup of all, rejecting the original, bipartisan deal that would have killed single-payer forever. So McConnell has been screwing America for nearly a decade (on health care alone)

            It’s dangerous to swallow the bullshit and propaganda from either tribe, even more so now, since they’re both collapsing, have both backed us into a corner, with no clue how to get out of it. They now spend most of their efforts on hate – BECAUSE they have no policy solutions, none at all, for the fiscal train wreck in deficits, health care, jobs OR the economy. Damn scary.

            1. Oh, I agree that both sides are full of shit. I’m no fan of Trump. I’m just saying that it’s not impossible for him to get re-elected.

  10. So asking a foreign government to investigate possible illegal action by an American in their country is an impeachable offense?

    1. If Trump does it, then yes.
      If Trump resurrected Mother Theresa and gave her 20 Billion dollars to help the poor, the democrats would demand impeachment for establishment of religion.

    2. He did more than ASK. And — just like you — without a shred of evidence.

  11. If there’s nothing dodgy about Hunter getting paid a cool million bucks a year for a job where he had no relevant experience, coincidentally at the same time his dad was in charge of Ukraine policy, then Trump is “creating” a scandal.

    If there IS something dodgy about it, Trump isn’t creating a scandal, he’s just exposing one.

    So the proper interpretation of the situation is rather contingent on the actual facts of the matter.

    1. “Republicans pounce.”

    2. Well, he does have expertise in the oil and gas markets, and speaks fluent Ukrainian, right?

    3. If there’s nothing dodgy about Hunter getting paid a cool million bucks a year for a job

      Brett, full of shit as always.

  12. Everybody involved lies so much that at this point I’m not sure there’s even a Ukraine.

    But I guess we will find out more tomorrow – Trump has said he’s going to release the transcript of the call. I’m not holding my breath, Trump has a long history of not doing what he says he’s going to do, but I also wouldn’t be surprised to see the transcript consists of a scribbled note written on the back of a Big Mac wrapper with a Sharpie.

    1. Mostly when he fails to do what he says he’s going to do, it’s something where somebody else has a say in the matter. Congress refusing to appropriate money, or the intelligence services refusing a direct order to declassify something.

      This is something he should be able to pull off without getting anybody’s buy in, so if he did say he was going to do it, it’s likely to happen. And according to CNN, he did order the transcript released about a half hour ago.

    2. “Everybody involved lies so much that at this point I’m not sure there’s even a Ukraine.”

      Your comment is probably the best representation of what many moderates are thinking. And with the Dems being the more annoying and scary faction, they may revolt or not participate.

      1. They’re equally scary, right and left. Tribal loyalty is no substitute for knowledge.

  13. So we are impeaching based on presidents leaning on other heads of state. Shit every goddamn president since Wilson should have been impeached.

    If you want Trump to win go ahead and impeach him. He won’t be removed from office by the senate. And impeachment will vindicate him and his supporters. And likely he will pick up sympathy votes.

    1. Even the Democrats doubtless think this is a joke, but it’s pretty important that they divert coverage of the real scandal here, Biden leaning on the Ukraine to stop investigating corruption at Hunter’s employer.

      Though that’s actually small potatoes compared to his China connection, I hear.

      1. ‘Biden is the real problem.’

        I wouldn’t have expected anything else from the ‘Democrats are the real racists’ clingers.

        1. Ahahahahah I made you use disaffected again ahahahah I fucking own you Ahajahahahahaahja

          I FUCKING TOLD YOU EXACTLY THIS WOULD HAPPEN AHAHAHAHAJAJAHHA

    2. Leaning on foreign heads of state for personal gain.

      You idiots may think that Trump being elected is equal to national interest, but let’s be clear on our terms.

      1. Why would Trump asking for the Ukraine to investigate corruption be a personal gain for Trump?

        (let’s see if he falls for it)

        1. There was no corruption. Trump just watches too much FOX News like you.

          Making federal aid conditional on a foreign country giving dirt on a political opponent is, however, corruption, to say the least. You just can’t see it because he has an (R) after his name. Pretend it’s a (D). Are you capable of the smallest amount of imagination, or are you a lower fish type of species?

          1. Dirty trick for sure. But not as dirty as hiring a foreigner to dig up dirt to use in a secret court in an attempt to invalidate an election.

            1. We’re never going to get anywhere until you fucktards start relying on credible news sources.

          2. There was no quid pro quo, even the whistleblower acknowledged that he had no direct access to any such promise.

            Why do the democrats act as if Trump ordered a nation to randomly investigate one of his rivals out of his blue? Biden was already tangentially involved in the investigation. The democrats have demanded investigations on BK for much less, and Chicago refused to prosecute Jussie Smollett despite a mountain load of evidence.

            Ukraine got the money. Whoever’s running that country confirmed that no deal was offered over the phone. Here’s s preview of the transcript, knowing Trump’s style.

            “Hey I think there’s something crooked is going on with Joe Biden’s son and his company and his dad tried to nix the prosecutor investigating them, you should really look int that” X 8.

            Did he ask the PM to investigate Joe Biden directly, or just his son and the company? In the latter case I don’t too much of an issue.

            1. You’re right. Trump is pure as fresh snow. It’s not like it’s credible that he’d be selling out the country for his own personal gain. He has no experience in government whatsoever, and his private life consisted of telling contractors to “Go ahead, try and sue me” when he refused to pay them what he owed. A real stand-up guy all around who couldn’t possibly be corrupt.

              Fuck, that (R) is a powerful talisman.

              1. Considering the shitstorm that has been rained down on his head, by virtually every media outlet, since he announced, I’m not sure you could say that being president has been a personal gain for Trump.
                The salary is such a pittance that he returns it and many of his business interests have taken major losses, because of what he has endured.
                If ever there was a president, who is doing this for the love of the country, it is Trump, especially after the last one, who wanted to “fundamentally transform” it.
                Go tell someone, you supposedly love, that you want to fundamentally transform them, and see how that goes.

            2. Is EVERY Trumptard this psycho??

              even the whistleblower acknowledged that he had no direct access to any such promise

              Prove it. (sneer)

          3. Wait, Tony; did you just claim there was no corruption? In Ukraine? Seriously?

            Almost everything in that country was corrupt at the time.

            There’s no way a young man with almost no experience and a foreigner got a job making $600k for the largest gas company in Ukraine for which he never had to be in Ukraine to fulfill without a measure of corruption.

            Your claim of no corruption is ridiculous on it’s face. No corruption; beyond laughable!

            1. OBVIOUS satire,

  14. Impeachment proceedings would almost certainly drown out discussion of other issues.

    This. Be vigilant of what goes on behind the scenes.

  15. If this does indeed turn Trump into a martyr and he gets reelected, I will at least have the solace that I warned my fellow travelers for a time that we should be cautious before rushing to impeachment.

    1. Don’t be ridiculous. Where’s the confidence you displayed when you wrote Your next president will be Elizabeth Warren. Choke on it, morons?

      Impeachment is not only our patriotic duty, it’s politically smart too.

      1. Nothing that has been reported, if you bother to actually dig up the facts, is improper, impeachable or unprecedented. Let’s dig up Obama’s transcripts and see how it goes.

        This is the Russian hoax all over again. 2020 is going to be a really, really, really unfortunate year for the dims and their media shills. Bring it on.

        1. You sound scared.

          Is Robert Muller a “dim”? Because what you say is not what his report said.

  16. Memo from American Taxpayer to Congress: Can we please get this Impeachment bullshit over and done with? Have your fucking vote and move on.

    1. Not everyone is dumb enough to disregard the important of investigation and evidence, you deplorable bigot.

      Replacement is the solution to every problem you present.

      1. Ahahahahah I made you use disaffected again ahahahah I fucking own you Ahajahahahahaahja

        I FUCKING TOLD YOU EXACTLY THIS WOULD HAPPEN AHAHAHAHAJAJA

      2. Now Reverend, I am thoroughly confused. We have had no less than six (yes 6) investigations conducted by Executive Branch agencies, the House, and the Senate. I think we are pretty much covered on the investigation front. There has been plenty of investigating. So what is there to disregard?

        The time for talk is over. Call the vote.

        1. It is the nature of our betters to keep doing the same thing until it comes up with a different outcome.

      3. You are so far past Poe’s Law, it’s actually impressive.

    2. They already had some test votes and they couldn’t even get all the demoncraps to agree to open an inquiry.
      All Nancy did was to say they are doing what they have been doing since before he took office, and have had the power to do, since Mueller held back his report through the mid-terms.

  17. John Solomon devastates Democrats on Ukraine

    Writing in The Hill, John Solomon demonstrates that it is Democrats who first sought to intimidate Ukraine for their own political ends and who continue to do so.

    Earlier this month, during a bipartisan meeting in Kiev, Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) delivered a pointed message to Ukraine’s new president, Volodymyr Zelensky.

    While choosing his words carefully, Murphy made clear — by his own account — that Ukraine currently enjoyed bipartisan support for its U.S. aid but that could be jeopardized if the new president acquiesced to requests by President Trump’s lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, to investigate past corruption allegations involving Americans, including former Vice President Joe Biden’s family.

    Murphy boasted after the meeting that he told the new Ukrainian leader that U.S. aid was his country’s “most important asset” and it would be viewed as election-meddling and “disastrous for long-term U.S.-Ukraine relations” to bend to the wishes of Trump and Giuliani.

    1. Do you not agree that it’s wrong for a US president and his vampiric half-sane personal lawyer to pressure a foreign government to aid in said president’s reelection campaign?

      I’m learning all sorts of new libertarian principles in the last couple days.

      1. Do you not agree that it’s wrong for a US president and his vampiric half-sane personal lawyer to pressure a foreign government to aid in said president’s reelection campaign?

        When the “aid” consists of investigating and prosecuting actual corruption, no. Is Trump supposed to sit back and allow Hunter Biden to engage in criminality in Ukraine because stopping it would hurt Joe Biden’s presidential campaign?

        According to you, yes he should. And that just shows how stupid you actually are.

      2. So the idea is, if an investigator from Ukraine looks into a gas company where Hunter Biden works, democrats freak out at the corruption in such close proximity to Biden, that he loses the nomination, setting Warren up for an easy defeat by Trump.

        And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren’t for those meddling whistleblowers.

        Is that the theory?

        1. Exposing the truth about how the Democrats operate in a campaign season is unfairly influencing an election. According to Democrats.

      3. The irony is that you have obviously learned nothing despite the fact that you hang out here continuously. Slow learner. It’s okay sweetie.

    2. Democrats have been striving to intimidate the Ukraine since Victoria Nuland said, “Fuck the EU.”

    3. wait so teh democrats are threatening Ukraine also? well whose the treasonous one now? i guess they all are impeach everyone

    4. You keep listening to John Solomon, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, FreeRepublic, Redstate, Breitbart, and Stormfront, Ray.

      And keep preferring Hillsdale to Harvard, Ouachita Baptist to Yale, and Wheaton to Wellesley.

      And stick with Alabama, Wyoming, Mississippi, Oklahoma City, Lynchburg, and Colorado Springs over California, New York, and Connecticut, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and New York City.

      Go all-in clinger. It suits you. It will make you happy. And you are going to lose and be replaced anyway.

      1. Ahahahahah I made you use disaffected again ahahahah I fucking own you Ahajahahahahaahja

        I FUCKING TOLD YOU EXACTLY THIS WOULD HAPPEN AHAHAHAHAJA

      2. “Go all-in”

        Ahahahahahahah aha OMFG HE RESORTED TO THIS SAD OVERUSED CLICHE AHAHAHAHAAJAJ WHERE DO YOU SELL TIME SHARES AHAHAHAHAHAAJAHJA IT’S NOT 2007 WORM AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAH

      3. Appeal to personal attack and shooting the messenger are the finest logical tools our betters possess.

      4. You’re right, it will make us happy. We’re having a great time, while you are sinking further and further into delusion and isolation.

      5. Aaaahhh Wellslay and Haaavahd. Do you summah in Bah Hahbah?

        Goddamn snob

    5. How crazy is THIS?

      that it is Democrats who first sought to intimidate Ukraine for their own political ends and who continue to do so.

      Ray then PROVES he’s full of shit!!

      if the new president acquiesced to requests by President Trump’s lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, to investigate past corruption allegations involving Americans, including former Vice President Joe Biden’s family.

      …. HAD THAT ALREADY BEGUN, OR WAS YOUR “SOURCE” PREDICTING THE FUTURE?

      You people may have more lame excuses than Trump.

      P.S. The investigation of Hunter was over.

  18. So if Trump would have hired an intermediary to get dirt on Biden it would have been ok, but it’s wrong for him to do it himself?

    1. He didn’t do it himself.
      He LIED that he already had the dirt.
      And he ILLEGALLY delayed taxpayer dollars.

      You’d have an equally lame excuse, if he’d raped a 12-year-old.
      Male.

  19. “Trump used the power of the presidency for personal political gain.”

    Yeah, as if the Bushes, Clinton and Obama never did that.

    1. Yeah, as if the Bushes, Clinton and Obama never did that.

      Nixon is still famous for it. The Kennedys were so epic at it one of the most iconic punk bans in history is ironically named after them.

  20. So now we are accusing Trump of doing what Biden ACTUALLY DID AND CONFESSED TO ON TAPE… You can’t make up this dept of stupid…

  21. This call for impeachment is going a lot faster than all the others.

    Have they learned from the previous failures? Like, it’s better to go ahead and vote, rather than wait until it becomes a big nothing burger?

    Have they thought this through? There’s been a pattern here. Do they want to repeat it in the middle of hearings?

    1. No they haven’t. I think what is going on here is that Biden is guilty of some very high level corruption. The Democrats have convinced themselves that Biden is the only candidate who has a chance against Trump and they know that this is going to kill his chances. So, the attempt to pin this on Trump is nothing but a hail Mary on their part. It is an act of complete desperation.

      Think about it. Biden’s son is selling influence in Ukraine. He magically gets hired to manage a hedge fund despite being a reformed crack head with a criminal record and no expertise or experience qualifying him for the job. Biden then threatens the Ukrainian government when he is VP to get them to fire the prosecutor looking into this. Trump becomes President and allegedly tells the Ukraine they should restart the investigation that Biden bullied them into stopping.

      And somehow Trump is the bad guy in all of this? That is something so stupid only Tony or an employee of reason could believe it.

      1. It looks like something that will completely backfire on them. But, go ahead. They’ve done a great job of getting rid of Trump for 3 years now, going on 4-8.

        1. I think they believe there is one impeachment vote and it’s a done deal. I would bet that if you asked many, if not most, who support impeachment who would preside over the trial they would have no clue as to what you are talking about.

      2. As I understand the reporting, the re-opening of the investigation is the Ukrainian’s idea, but they haven’t been able to get the information through to the president.
        An 0blama ambassador refused visas for Ukrainians to bring the information and then they hired a US lawyer to deliver it to the DOJ, who just sat on it.
        My guess is that the phone call wasn’t Trump asking them to investigate but the Ukrainian president asking if Trump would object if they did, and he answers, several times, for them to go ahead.

  22. So Suderman thinks we shouldn’t ask a foreign nation to investigate criminal acts that occurred in their country by a person running for president? Don’t we have a right to know if a person running for president use his former powers of public office to blackmail another country to protect his son’s criminal activity

    1. Depends. Does he have a D after his name or something else?

  23. Never change, Suderman

    *Knock Knock*
    -Who’s there?
    -Still not the Atlantic

  24. Let’s not lose sight of the big picture. We can debate all day whether or not this one incident is impeachable (it is), but let’s not forget that many many people feel he should have been impeached for multiple other acts. This is just the cherry on top. The Dems better not be stupid and make it look as if everything rests on this one case. There is a totality of actions that show this president to be unfit for the office, extremely ethically debased, and criminal. They need to use the totality argument because they need to not set a precedent here.

    On the other hand, Clinton was impeached for one lie. What the heck were the Democrats waiting for?

    1. Your side lost the election. Get over it. Trump isn’t going to be removed from office. He is likely though not assured to win re-election and dreaming up revenge fantasies about impeachment isn’t going to change that.

      1. possible parody of OBL.

    2. “Impeachable” doesn’t mean anything.

      They could impeach Trump for having two scoops of ice cream.

    3. “”On the other hand, Clinton was impeached for one lie.””

      Under oath.

      The biggest thing that made the Clinton impeachment happen was the special prosecutor made no ambiguity about his belief that Clinton was guilty.

    4. >On the other hand, Clinton was impeached for one lie. What the heck were the Democrats waiting for?

      It’s almost like, after 6 investigations, they still have fucking NOTHING. Strange!

  25. >>sure looks like

    boy howdy! Katie bar the door.

    1. Nothing says “deep penetrating analysis” of an issue like “well it sure looks like…”

      1. far as I got before I felt need to comment lol

  26. “Trump used the power of the presidency for personal political gain.”
    This is what you call reporting nowadays. You think we’re a bunch of cattle – stimulus, response, stimulus, response –
    I for one believe none of the hype and will believe the Dems on impeachment when they take actions instead of slow rolling controversies so they can fundraise off them.

    1. In answer to your question, yes, Suderman thinks his readers are as dumb as he and everyone he knows is.

      1. Well, the problem they can’t seem to get around is that if any crimes exist, then Biden did them too and worse than Trump. Idiot Biden went on TV and confessed. Trump, by giving other reasons to withhold aid a week before, gives himself a fig leaf. They’re in a bind because Trump got them AGAIN. Now they have the unpleasant task of convincing people that don’t believe them that what Trump did is different and worse than Biden. That’s not possible.

        1. Trump says he never said a word about it and will release the transcript of the conversation. We won’t know until he does release such a transcript assuming he does, but, if he does and it shows he didn’t say anything and this report is wrong, what then?

          Maybe Trump is lying about that. Time will tell. But, I don’t see why he would lie about something that can be so easily verified. I think chances are he is going to release the transcript and there won’t be anything in it.

          1. Which is of course the worst possible case for Dems. Because then they have fired up the rhetoric, but only their guy actually did anything.

            This is going to backfire spectacularly on them.

          2. It seems the demoncraps think the “implied but not stated” threat is worse than the openly articulated one.
            A great deal of their shtick is mind reading, as to what their opponents are really thinking – code words and dog whistles – when they are the masters of the lie.
            Demoncraps; the party of lies doing the bidding of the father of lies.

  27. Personal political gain?

    Nah. Didn’t you know that injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere? The corrupt folks dealing with Ukraine must be brought to justice!

    Sort of like when the Obama administration spied on the Trump campaign. They were just doing their job you know, because they really had good evidence that Trump was a secret Russian agent. They had this dossier, you see, they got it from the Russians and the Clinton campaign . . . .

  28. The headline should read “I, nor anybody else, have no fucking clue what Trump said on the phone, but I’m sure it was an abuse of power!”

  29. WTF
    Biden brags about holding back aid unless investigation of his son is stopped.
    Trump says look into that and THAT’S the problem?

  30. There’s two other ways to think about this. Corruption is corruption; possibly Trump was pissed about the corruption allowed and encouraged by Obama and wanted the Ukraine to weed it out.

    Non one rational could think Biden’s $200K per month was anything but corruption. Are the conspiracy theorists here saying that Biden’s corruption should be ignored? Why? Because it pales in comparison to what they imagine to be Trump’s corruption? Trump is a scumbag, but I can”t imagine him grubbing for such small stakes.

  31. Biden is a private citizen he’s not even the Democratic nominee. Trump asking for an investigation of him is completely legal.

  32. Corrupt prosecutors are dime a dozen across the world, literally. We generally don’t withhold aid to nations in which judges can condemn women to hang for fashion crimes. Even if Shokin was unusually crooked and faced international scrutiny, it would sort of create a conflict of interest for Biden to be actively involved in calling for an ouster of a prosecutor who was investigating a company that gave his unqualified son a cushy job.

    As for Trump, the transcript will show what conversation actually took place.

    1. But will it? Nixon released edited transcripts.

      1. So when the transcript shows Trump never said anything, it will just mean Trump edited it.

        Jesus Fucking Christ Tony don’t you ever get tired of being a lunatic?

        1. Do you never tire of defending a man who will without any question whatsoever be viewed by history as the most corrupt president in history?

      2. I know you are a partisan hack, but Nixon released TAPES that ultimately led to his resignation.

  33. Oh, this is it زوج درمانی قبل از ازدواج , we finally got him. This is the beginning of the end. The Walls are Closing In. The Net is Closing.

  34. Two points, missed by every Reason report (so far)

    1) It’s speculation that the whistleblower report has anything at all to do with the Ukraine call and related events.

    2) The whistleblower report being “second hand” is a typical lame Trumpian excuse. ALL whistleblower reports are second hand, because they MUST come from an Inspector General, or other source … to protect the whistleblower’s identity. That’s how such reports work. Especially from a exceptionally vengeful and punitive President.

    So sad that (today’s) Reason has again joined the mob hysteria.

  35. The corruption that Hunter Biden is accused of, is small potatoes compared to what the Trumps and Kushners have been doing. Where is the outrage of that corruption?
    I understand that almost everyone that comments on Reason is a Russian troll, who especially hates Ukraine, but still, can anyone explain the logic to me?

    1. Corruption by THEIR cult is acceptable. To be proud of.
      (That applies to both left and right these days)

  36. What I’ve gathered is that Trump or Republicans and not allowed to do the same kinds of things that Biden or Democrats are allowed to do. If Trump or Republicans do then they must be investigated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, however Biden or Democrats are not to be touched.

    1. Obstruction of justice by destroying hard drives under subpoena is a Donkey specialty. See DNC, Hillary.

  37. Aside from the Epstein-soiled US government, Ukraine has had the world’s most corrupt governments for its entire ‘independent’ existence. Russia would have been praiseworthy had Putin stepped in and annexed the entire country back in 2014 after the US overthrew Ukraine’s elected President Yanukovich (who was as corrupt as Yuschenko, his western-appointed predecessor). Then the Bidens wouldn’t have been able to make a fortune by using the VP’s standing to get Hunter involved in its future fracking ‘business’.

    Hopefully, the Bidens will be locked up. If Trump gets impeached, so much the better, especially if all Congress persons are thrown out in 2020. Better the US government is destroyed this way than by a Russian nuke dropped on Washington in legitimate, moral self-defense.

  38. Trump used the power of the presidency for personal political gain.

    No it doesn’t. No one looking at that could seriously think that.

    But I don’t see you talking about how Biden actually, openly, used the power of his office to bully a foreign government into giving the company that his son is part of a pass on a criminal investigation.

    And this isn’t a ‘well, that was then thing’. Biden actually did that and he’s now running for President.

    1. But I don’t see you talking about how Biden actually, openly, used the power of his office to bully a foreign government into giving the company that his son is part of a pass on a criminal investigation.

      You’re full of shit, reciting memorized sound bites. Shameful.

  39. What Suderman has done here may not qualify for an actual diagnosis of nocturnal enuresis, but it certainly reads like bedwetting.

    1. Now that the transcript is out I’d like to amend my prior statement.

      Because Suderman shit the bed.

      1. He’s NAILED!

  40. If President Trump was told that Biden used influence (via U.S. $$$) to have someone fired who was investigating Biden’s son, then it is The Presidents Job to investigate this. And Reason has impeachment in the title of this article? I have friends who constantly tell me to read Reason as they are Libertian. … I do not see this site as Libertarian, I do see the site as very far to the left. This article is one of many that proves that .

    1. Sad. You say Trump’s job is to act on a partisan rumor, long discredited? Note the date in this link.

      https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/may/07/viral-image/fact-checking-joe-biden-hunter-biden-and-ukraine/

      The investigation of Hunter was over by then. Plus MANY foreign countries and institutions were calling for that prosecutor to be removed — for his failure to address the rampant corruption in Ukraine, which is well known to informed people … even mentioned by Trump.. Perhaps you’ve been manipulated by Fox Fake News

      You and your friends clearly have no idea what libertarianism is.
      It may not apply here, but the error is most often caused by ignorance that we’ve been fiscally conservative and socially liberal for over 50 year (which has always confused the Authoritarian Right.) Thus, you have no rational
      basis to conclude that Reason is even remotely on the left.

      This article is one of many that proves that

      Educate yourself at the link I’ve provided. Or google and find dozens more like that.

      Also, Obama was not born in Kenya.

      1. The Biden campaign told PolitiFact that the vice president learned about his son’s role on the board through media reports and never discussed anything related to this company with his son

        Hunter was paid $50,000 per month. Anyone who believes that is a reasonable salary for a normal go-between is a fool, as is anyone who believes the old man didn’t know about it .

        Your link disproves your comment.

        1. This weekend, Biden told reporters, “I have never spoken to my son about his overseas business dealings.” That is flatly untrue. Hunter admitted in an interview with the New Yorker that his father expressed concern about the Burisma post at least once: “Dad said, ‘I hope you know what you are doing,’ and I said, ‘I do.’” Moreover, the New Yorker reports that, “In December, 2015, as Joe Biden prepared to return to Ukraine, his aides braced for renewed scrutiny of Hunter’s relationship with Burisma. Amos Hochstein, the Obama Administration’s special envoy for energy policy, raised the matter with Biden.” That same month, the New York Times published an article about how Hunter’s business dealings in Ukraine undermined the vice president’s anti-corruption message, which quoted a Biden spokesman saying it had no impact.

          https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/462865-rnc-calls-on-biden-to-release-his-ukraine-calls

          Politifact is political, but not remotely factual.

          1. Politifact is political, but not remotely factual.

            Fake news? (sneer)

            The memo is out and Trump is NAILED.

          2. ThomasD LIES about his own link! TOTALLY! Typical Trumpster.

            No evidence has emerged that Joe Biden was acting to protect his son

            Pathetic.

        2. The fool is one with NO links. (snort)
          And a pathetic liar. Typical Trumpster; full of shit.
          He wasn’t a go between. He was a board member, and you’ve repeated Trump’s latest wacko conspiracy, as you’ve done so obediently, all down the page.

  41. “You say Trump’s job is to act on a partisan rumor, long discredited?”

    Discredited? By whom?

    The fact is that the Obama administration arranged the overthrow of Ukraine’s elected president, installed a puppet subservient to neo-nazi paramilitary groups and armed them. Obama and especially Secretary of State for European Affairs, Victoria Nuland, are responsible for the bloodshed in Ukraine that is still ongoing. That includes the Maidan snipers who were WORKING FOR THE US side.

    Hunter Biden sought to profit from this US-sponsored blood-fest by using his status as the former VP’s son. Now that Ukraine has elected a new leader, prosecutors there are investigating the snipers and other wrongdoings of the previous puppet regime – something that VP Biden pressured the previous puppet regime to refrain from under threat of no aid.

    Trump’s call to Zelensky amounted to reporting Biden family crimes.

    1. “You say Trump’s job is to act on a partisan rumor, long discredited?”

      Discredited? By whom?

      Why did you lie about my words? One more time for the morally impaired.

      Sad. You say Trump’s job is to act on a partisan rumor, long discredited? Note the date in this link.

      https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/may/07/viral-image/fact-checking-joe-biden-hunter-biden-and-ukraine/

      You’re as dishonest as Trump.

  42. I guess Reason believes investigating corruption is an abuse of power.

    1. Any corruption involving an opponent of Trump is acceptable as service to the higher good.

      Because the Reason version of liberty involves a government big enough to give it all to you.

    2. YOU SAY THAT’S WHAT HAPPENED!!!

  43. How about waiting for the transcript? The whistleblower did not hear the call nor see the transcript and based on that Suderman decides it is an abuse of power. As bad as the liberal democrats.

    1. How about waiting for the transcript?

      It was out when you posted this!!!

      The whistleblower did not hear the call nor see the transcript

      OMFG
      HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT????

      As bad as the liberal democrats.

      Yes, you are. Proving once again what libertarians have known for over 50 years: Left – Right = Zero. Two authoritarian gangs, corrupted by power lust.

  44. The worst thing for the Democrats would be if Biden is forced to drop out of the race because of this.

    1. It’s Trump who’s done.

  45. Suderman: Abuse of power!

    Trump: Releases transcript (Spoiler: There’s nothing.)

    Boehm: Trump faked the transcript!

    The entire Reason staff should be committed to a mental institution for TDS.

    1. THE TRANSCRIPT PROVES HIS ABUSE … AND THAT HE LIED ABOUT BIDEN. (smirk)

      Read it. Make the effort. It’s only five pages. And confirms everything.

      1. How much do you get paid by the DNC to post here?

        1. Since you refuse to read it … I’ll jam it up your pathetic ass publicly!

          https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-transcript-read-ukraine-president-phone-call-transcript-pdf-released-today-joe-biden-crowdstrike-2019-09-25/

          Now the smoking gun. I’ve added a lot, for context, so here’s a summary … Zelensky thanked Trump for US military support, which would be used to buy missiles from us … .presumably ignorant that Trump had ILLEGALLY blocked the funding support.

          ZELENSKY:
          I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the the next steps, specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United· States for defense purposes.

          Now Trump’s shameful bribe. My emphasis. The word “though” cements his intent, along with timing and context.

          TRUMP:
          I would like you to do us a favor though
          , because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The server, they say Ukraine has it

          The other thing.here’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you ·can look into it..

          Trump also kept repeating how much the US had done for Ukraine … as why Ukraine should help HIM (while he was fucking them!)

          Black and white PROOF. Released by TRUMP’S the White House, but, TRUMPSTERS STILL REFUSE TO ACCEPT UNDENIABLE PROOF.

          TWO psycho lies. Biden bragging bout something that never happened … and Crowdstrike.

          Crowdstrike is yet another wacky Trump conspiracy, even crazier than Pizzzagate and Birtherism. Crowdstrike is a MAJOR AMERICAN security firm, who first reported that Russia had hacked the DNC server less than 12 hours after Trump publicly asked Russia to find Hillary’s emails. The FBI later confirmed the hack was by Russia … but THAT is part of the Deep State Conspiracy. (lol)

          So … Trump NEEDS the lie that Crowdstrike was yet another foreign conspiracy AGAINST him. That Trump mentions it HERE proves … the crazy psycho BELIEVES IT!

          Anything else, puppet on a string?

  46. Let me see if I understand what has taken place so far
    Colluding with Russia was grounds to spy on Trump then investigate Trump for nothing impeachable before learning he was actually colluding with its enemy Ukraine to investigate Biden who likely was actually colluding with it, all of which is grounds to, of course, impeach Trump. Did I get that right?

    1. Did I get that right?

      No. More like backstroking across a lake of bullshit.
      You’ve been manipulated by the political elites. To be pitied.

      Umm, the Mueller report detailed 10 examples of obstruction, and declined to seek evidence of “collusion.” All in the report, black and white, STATING it was for future prosecution..

      The transcript proves Trump’s guilt, and exposes his lies about Biden.

      “Nobody has ever underestimated the intelligence of the American voter.” H.L. Mencken.

      But you’ve earned that cookie from Trump!

      1. “No. More like backstroking across a lake of bullshit.
        You’ve been manipulated by the political elites. To be pitied.“

        Pot, kettle. Also, still not funny. Your raccoon joke a week or so ago was pathetic. You’re supposed to say the other person is dumber than a raccoon, not as smart as one. And the rest of that joke was a disaster. You should stop.

        1. It wasn’t intended to be funny. I called out his bullshit.
          And now your own bullshit about a raccoon joke, PLUS your denial of what the Mueller Report said, PLUS your cowardly diversions. and (overall) nonsensical babbling.

          They travel in a pack, like wild dogs. And they vote. (shudder)
          But, in all fairness, no more manipulated than Bernie’s and Elizabeth’s robotic cults. Because: Left – Right = Zero.

          Anything else?

  47. Sadly it takes a LOT of sources these days to get the entire story.
    Of how badly the Trumpsters are being totally flim-flammed.

    These are the key facts from the “transcript.”

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-transcript-read-ukraine-president-phone-call-transcript-pdf-released-today-joe-biden-crowdstrike-2019-09-25/

    First, it’s NOT the full, non-redacted transcript that Trump promised. From page one of what’s TITLED a memorandum (their spelling errors)

    CAUTION: A Memorandum of a Telephone Conversation.· (TELCON) is not a verbatim transcript of a discussion. The text in this document records the notes and recollections of Situation Room Duty “Officers and-NSC policy staff assigned to listen.and memorialize the conversation in written form as the conversation takes place. A numper of factors can affect ‘the accuracy of the recod,including poor telecommunications connections and variations in accent and/or interpretation. The word “inaudible” is used to indifate portions of a conversation that the notetaker was unable to hear.

    Now the smoking gun. I’ve got it all. so here’s a summary. Zelesky thanked Trump for US military support, which would be used to buy missiles from us … .presumably ignorant that Trump had ILLEGALLY blocked the funding support.

    ZELENSKY:
    I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the the next steps, specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United· States for defense purposes.

    Now Trump’s shameful bribe. My emphasis. The word “though” cements his intent.

    TRUMP:
    I would like you to do us a favor though
    , because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The server, they say Ukraine has it

    The other thing.here’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you ·can look into it..

    Black and white PROOF. Released by TRUMP’S the White House, but, THEY STILL REFUSE TO ACCEPT UNDENIABLE PROOF.

    TWO sycho lies. Biden’s bragging and Crowdstrike. Crowdstrike is yet another wacky Trump conspiracy, even crazier than Pizzzagate and Birtherism. Crowdstrike is a MAJOR AMERICAN security firm, who concluded it was Russians who had hacked the DNC server. less than 12 hours after Trump publicly asked Russia to find Hillary’s emails. The FBI later confirmed the hack was by Russia … and THAT is part of the Deep State Conspiracy. So … Trump NEEDS the lie that Crowdstrike was yet another foreign conspiracy AGAINST him. That Trump mentions it HERE proves … the crazy psycho BELIEVES IT!

    THIS is impeachable, and even crazier than you’ve likely heard!

    1. The FBI was never given the DNC server. So anything they may have said was mere speculation.

      Deal in facts, freely available, and you won’t be called out as a bullshitter so frequently.

      1. The FBI was never given the DNC server. So anything they may have said was mere speculation.

        To a cyber illiterate .. and LIAR!

        Deal in facts, freely available, and you won’t be called out as a bullshitter so frequently.

        Well, psycho,
        1) FAIL to state those facts,
        2) A cowardly diversion from Trump’s INSANE BULLSHIT that Crowdstrike is owned by a Ukrainian billionaire, and the server is still intact and in the Ukraine.

        Google Crowdstrike, an major AMERICAN cyber-security firm, publicly traded on NASDAQ, headquartered in California, with a major office in the DC area. THOSE are freely available facts, Trump Chump

        (walks away laughing)

    2. I don’t think you have what you think you have, except maybe confirmation bias.

      Context has meaning and reference to Trump’s odd speech patterns is relevant. None of the requests are contingent on anything otherwise he’d have said that. Trump is touted as being verbally wreckless and unintelligent. So either he’s actually very smart with some deep innuendo here, or you’re so far past the logical obvious that confirmation bias is the least of your issues.

      1. I’ll try to dumb it down. (lol)

        “Thanks for your hundreds of millions of dollars in support.”

        “I would like you to do us a favor though.”

        That’s WHY I needed to use boldface, which was still not enough!

        None are so blind as those choose to blindfold themselves… for the cause. The militant self-righteous, both left and right.

        (Also learn what “confirmation bias” means, if you persist in reciting memorized slogans)

  48. So, let’s see: DNC touts an unverified dossier during a presidential campaign and pushes for DOJ to investigate, has several years of DOJ and special counsel investigation with illegal leaks to the press which specifically target one campaign to come up with (at best) obstruction.

    But one mention of possible investigation into prior corruption investigation by the government where it took place and the world is going to end if we don’t impeach! Without mentioning any quid pro quo?

    The standards of equality in application here are astounding. If Trump wanted to hurt Biden that much why is it this came out in September and not 2 months earlier? There are a lot of logical questions that aren’t being asked and everyone is assuming all kinds of nonsense.

    Biden bragged about something that timelines don’t match for; why did it take 6 more months to fire the prosecutor in Ukraine from when Biden threatened? Because Biden is bragging about it while having little to do with it actually happening.

    The funds were frozen prior to the phone call, so the connection between the two is tenuous at best just like the Biden bragging issue. Timelines don’t match up.

    As for a POTUS putting pressure on foreign leaders, isn’t that his job? Especially when it has to do with possible corruption? There’s no doubt in my mind that there was corruption in Ukraine at the time, it was rampant and is still likely to be prevalent there. Just like it is in Russia. You’d be naive to believe otherwise.

    For those of you who dismiss me out of hand as a Trump supporter; I didn’t vote for him and am unlikely to do so this time either. I do however look forward to the Reverend insulting me instead of addressing what I say as he’s done this whole thread. Failing to address anything except his apparent addiction to denigrating anyone he disagrees with.

    1. The funds were frozen prior to the phone call, so the connection between the two is tenuous at best

      WTF?

      1) Zelensky thanked Trump for the military support, which PROVES he did not know Trump had blocked it.

      2) Trump’s IMMEDIATE response was, “I would like you do do us a favor though”

      I do however look forward to the Reverend insulting me instead of addressing what I say as he’s done this whole thread.

      I’m not the Rev, and I explicitly addressed your nonsense.

      Biden bragged about something that timelines don’t match for;

      TRUMP LIED
      Here’s MY proof … you’ve provided NO proof, just OPINIONS, which ARE easily disproved.

      Anything else?

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  50. Does it still look like an abuse of power when the treaty with Ukraine is factored in?

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