Free-Range Kids

Arizona Parents Who Defied Doctor's Orders to Bring Sick 2-Year-Old to the Hospital Now Face Child Abuse Charges

Cops release edited video of the encounter.

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AZ
Screenshot via Chandler Police

The Chandler, Arizona, police department that broke through the door of a family that ignored a doctor's orders to bring their sick toddler to the hospital has recommended the mother and father be charged with child abuse.

The local district attorney will decide whether or not to press charges, according to The Arizona Republic's Dianna M. Nanez, who broke the story.

"I'm so scared," the father told Nanez. Unless the charges are dropped, he is not sure if his three children, currently in foster care with their grandparents, will be allowed to come home.

The ordeal began on February 25 when the mom brought her son to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine—an alternative medicine practice—with a high fever. The doctor told her to take him to the hospital because the boy was unvaccinated and the doctor feared he could have meningitis, a life-threatening disease.

While the mom promised to do this, the child was already feeling better by the time they were heading home, and he continued to improve, so she didn't. The doctor followed up with her, and again she said she would take him the emergency room, but then neglected to do so. The doctor eventually alerted the Arizona Department of Child Safety. A DCS worker called the cops and asked them to go to the family's home where DCS would meet them.

Last week, the police released an edited video of the night in question. Three hours is condensed to about 11 minutes, in which we see a cop calling the family over and over to tell them that they are required to bring the child to the hospital.

"Look," says the cop in one of the exchanges. "I talked to the doctors and they said this could be a possibly life-threatening situation."

The dad replies that it is not life-threatening, and his son is already better.

"I know you're saying his fever broke now, but," the cop replies, "we need you to come outside and talk to us. If you don't come out and talk to us… then those kids are going to be taken away and you will be in serious trouble."

Keeping his cool, the cop adds, "I would rather just have you come out and let us deal with this and let us take the kid to the hospital."

The dad refuses. Eventually the cops warn that if the family does not comply, they will break down the door.

At around 1:30 a.m., four of them do just that, bursting in and pointing guns as if this were a drug raid. They handcuff the dad and tell the mom to come out with the kids. She does.

We don't see what happens next, but we know from Nanez's reporting that the kids were separated and each placed with different foster care families for two weeks before the court allowed them to be placed with their grandparents.

"This is a complete miscarriage of justice and a shame to the state of Arizona," said Rep. Kelly Townsend (R) a state legislator who has fought to curtail the power of DCS.

There are, however, two bits of good news. First, writes Nanez:

The father said he met with a Chandler police investigator last week and thought the interview went well.

"He said this got way out of hand, really, for no reason and we're going to try to prevent this from ever happening again," the father said.

The father said he thought the case would be closed. He said he and his wife had positive interactions with DCS this week.

"They acted like we're going to get our kids back," he said.

The other good news: When the children were eventually checked by a doctor, it turned out the toddler had RSV, a respiratory virus, but not meningitis. On the website KidsHealth, it says, "Almost all kids have had RSV at least once by the time they're 2 years old." Its symptoms include a runny nose, cough, headache and fever. "In most healthy kids, they don't need to distinguish RSV from a common cold."

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  1. A recent NY Times piece makes the parents villains and the cops heroes, so this makes sense?

    1. The parents should have taken the kid to the hospital and then went after the doctor and police in the media. How did they think this situation was going to end? If a gang of thugs have guns pointed to my head and tell me to turn over my wallet, I turn over my wallet, then go after them later.

      1. +1

        Either you have to be willing to sacrifice your life to kill these tyrant pigs on the spot or fight them later in court and lose because of some judge making up some kind of immunity.

        Maybe the Incels are right to not have kids. One less thing to let the state attack you over.

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          1. But did the cops put it in foster care?

            Reason: Will you faggots please do something about the spam? It’s obviously the same source every time.

      2. They’d be turning their wallet over to the hospital if they complied.

        1. This is going to be way more expensive and also traumatic for the kids.

        2. Maybe… Have you gotten an er bill lately?

      3. And that’s why the cops get away with this crap.

        Because if they had done that – then there’d have been no media coverage.

      4. Sure. But it’s probably not obvious to most people that not heeding your child’s doctor’s advice could turn into a situation where thugs literally have guns pointed at you. I think that most people who have had no involvement with the CPS system don’t know how quickly things can get out of hand when you do.

        1. I dared to question my daughter’s clinicians, especially the recommendation that they put her on anti-psychotics (she’s nine years old, to early for such a diagnosis, they just like the drugs because it make the children compliant) with tons of side effects, like weight gain (she went from healthy to so fat she’s probably going be diabetic before she can vote) and apathy. Well, the clinicians started writing false reports about me, finding a “major concern” about me every week, reported me to CPS several times (only one report was even investigated, and the investigator thought it was a joke) meanwhile her mom took me court. Mom won because all the lawyers believed the expert clinicians who said I’m a complete piece of shit. Now I get to see her about 30 hours a month. If I had kissed the clinicians’ asses none of that would have happened. Instead I offended their fragile egos, and lost my child as a result.

          Moral of the story – the people with power will always believe the people with lots of letters after their names. Obey or consider yourself fucked.

          1. That fucking sucks, man.

          2. Anti-psychotics suck. Too many side effects. Good doctors use them only as a last resort for obvious symptoms of mania.

          3. Truly sorry to hear that, my man.

          4. Being a man in family court I’m sure didn’t help. Good luck going forward.

          5. Man, that sounds like the kind of problem that deserves some people getting permanent lead poisoning.

          6. A nuerologist put my young teen on amitruptoline for migraines, despite the warnings about kids having horrid reactions, including suicide and violence. Right on cue, she flipped out and tried to kill me. My ex refused to let me get her help, and instead got a lawyer to remove her from my home, despite my never having had any history or a bad word said about my parenting.

            The courts go with who ever pays for the best lawyers and “experts.”

        2. Oh, and my daughter’s heart is completely broken. She’s been in a major depression since our time together was limited. I’m home. Her mom is not. She just wants to go home.

          1. There is a severe power imbalance between psychologists and lay-people in this society. You might read Thomas Szasz if you’re interested. But this type of advocacy against the powers that be, and the strong connection between psychiatry and legal action, is still grassroots and new.

            I’m very sorry to hear about your daughter. You might want to talk to an advocacy group like NAMI. I can’t vouch for your regional office, but it is a start.

          2. That totally sucks dude. I’m sorry to hear that. It’s infuriating this shit happens. Experts my ass.

            1. They already had her on (pardon any misspelling) zoloft, adderal, clonodine, and trazadone. That wasn’t enough. Must add risperidone into the mix. Medicate the child into compliance. Don’t bother with coping skill or anything like that. Just feel them pills three or four times a day. If the parent doesn’t like it, take the kid away.

              My daughter is trapped in a medicated shell. Her memory is shit. She doesn’t show any emotions. The only thing that interests her is food. And I’m the bad guy….

              1. Holy shitballs, that’s ridiculous.

              2. That’s fucked man… Unfortunately it’s not the first time I’ve ever heard such a story.

                How does the mom feel about the drugs?

                She may hate your guys, but hopefully she actually loves your kid… If I was in such a situation, I’d at least talk to her about that. Even if you literally need to lie to the doctors and just have your daughter stop taking the meds, if you can get mom on board, it might be doable.

        3. It wasn’t advice. It was an order and while you’re free to ignore them as a legal adult, you CANNOT deny care to a minor. Should that be the law? Perhaps not, but that’s the real issue here. The doctor and CPS’s response, given the current legal obligations they have, is 100% appropriate and standard procedure.

          1. Doctors have no legal authority.

            Suck that government cock harder.

            Also, do you have kids? Because I think your home may need a government review to make sure you’re raising them correctly.

            1. Actually they have all the authority in the world, as much as you may hate that.

              I’m not defending the status quo. I’m merely explaining that doctors have the legal right to order such testing and if you do not obey you are in fact committing a crime. Meningitis is potentially life threatening and when that condition is met, the State currently has the legal right to act on what it believes is the benefit of the child. Even 1A doesn’t cover them in this situation.

              1. Cite the statute, please.

              2. Cant tell of you’re retarded or fucking retarded. Doctors so not have legal power of attorney over your kids. This asshole like belief is what is allowing gender doctors to harm kids by declaring everyone as trans. Fucking stop this shit.

        4. The OB-GYN had a fetish for C sections, and would not shut up about them, every visit. Even after being told, “There is a medical POA in effect. If a C section becomes necessary, I will approve it.”

          Every fucking visit, “We have to consider the possibility of a C section” in a loud voice, right in front of a woman whose mother fucking DIED from a C section.

          Woman is allergic to wheat. As in, on a chart of 0-100, she scores 250.

          Doctor: “I know you’re allergic to wheat, but it’s necessary for pregnancy to eat some wheat.”

          Uh…why?

          Child is small–5th %ile size, 8th %ile mass, which, obviously, is proportional…from a mother barely 5′ tall, therefore statistically appropriate.

          Pediatrician: “You need to feed her several cans of corn-syrup based formula a week to put weight on her.”

          We didn’t take that advice, either.

          I note in the article no mention that they ever actually took the child to the ER.

      5. “Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come
        when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict
        the art of healing to one class of Men and deny equal privileges to
        others; the Constitution of the Republic should make a Special
        privilege for medical freedoms as well as religious freedom.”
        Dr. Benjamin Rush, Signer of Declaration of Independence

      6. Yeah, and whose fscking kids are they? GTFO. I hope the shiatstain “doctor” is proud of the heartache and expense and danger that has been wrought on this family. The cops are certainly proud of all the suffering they have been causing for a century. People should be free to live as they please, no matter what some busybody homeopathic moron and some little judge and some roided-up pig have to say on the matter. They can’t just go seizing your property and your children because one quack has the gall to stir shit up.

        Go to the house, ask nicely if they would please take the kid to the hospital, and if they say no, get back in your little squad car and get your ass back on the side of the interstate to deprive people of their money, property, lives and liberty like a good little badge polisher.

        Fuck everyone except the family in this ridiculous situation. This is obvious evidence that we are not free. You can’t trust anyone these days. People acquire power and then they use it against others, sure as the sun rises. We’re like crabs in a fscking bucket, each one looking for an advantage over the other, clawing and tumbling us all into the abyss of authoritarian misery.

        Non-aggression and and a low profile will not protect you from your betters. It is no longer enough to drop off the grid, hiding in some fatuous Galt’s Gulch–they will come for you and they will make you comply.

        1. –And to quote Easy Rider:
          Billy: What the hell is wrong with freedom? That’s what it’s all about.

          George: Oh, yeah, that’s right. That’s what’s it’s all about, all right. But talkin’ about it and bein’ it, that’s two different things. I mean, it’s real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. Of course, don’t ever tell anybody that they’re not free, ’cause then they’re gonna get real busy killin’ and maimin’ to prove to you that they are. Oh, yeah, they’re gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom. But they see a free individual, it’s gonna scare ’em.

          Billy: Well, it don’t make ’em runnin’ scared.

          George: No, it makes ’em dangerous.

      7. Kids sometimes pop a fever, and then it goes back down.

        Why take a recovered child to the emergency room?

    2. Which piece of shit smirky “deplorable”-smearing “journalist” wrote that?

    3. Personally, I’m skeptical of both narratives. The claims of child abuse and neglect seem at the very least worth listening to (though I am still not trusting anything except the full, unedited bodycam footage. The police have far too much incentive to spin themselves as a hero in this case). However, no matter what the outcome of the charge, using a SWAT team in this manner is the very definition of excessive force.

  2. Think of the children!

    1. I sure as hell wouldn’t take my kids to that doctor after this.

      1. I would sue the doctor. He/she is clearly exceeding any “duty to report” that this doctor feels that they have.

        This is a desire by the doctor to force the parents to do what he/she says.

        Notice that the cops use what the doctor says about going to the ER as some authority to force parents to do something.

        I would put up a GoFundMe page and collect legal donations to sue the doctor until he/she could never be in business again. I would also hire protesters to picket outside the medical office and inform all patients of what this doctor has done.

        1. Of course, the police feel free to disregard doctors and other medical professionals when it suits them, sometimes even ordering medical procedures. E.g. that case in Utah where they roughed up and arrested a nurse who refused to do a blood draw, or the Deming case where they ordered doctors to continue doing hours of anal searching on a guy after it was clear there was nothing there.

  3. Were they actually anti-vaxxers, or were they just not vaccinated for Meningitis? If the latter, I don’t believe it’s common for children that young to get that particular vaccine.

    1. The age for meningitis vaccination is 11-12 with a booster around 16-18. The kid referenced in this story is 2, not old enough by a decade for the meningitis vaccination.

      1. Hey, let’s not let facts get in the way of ANTI-VAXXER! These parents should be tried for attempted murder for not vaccinating their children!

      2. Yes, that’s why I asked. In this current climate mentioning she wasn’t vaccinated seems to imply the parents were anti-vaxxers. Which is not appropriate for this article.

      3. The type of meningitis you worry about in a 2 YO is not the kind the vaccine works against.

    2. That’s a very good question. The Narrative and the popular myths of morons is all to ready to smear the parents as “anti-vaxxers” as that fits a particular trope. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t, but the reporting this far fails to acknowledge the fact that this child is likely too young to have been vaccinated against meningitis anyway. Coastal elites like assuming the worst and sneering at the “rubes” of flyover country while ignoring the shitty dumpster fires of their own back yards.

      1. Like when people seized on a statement Rand Paul made as if he were aboard (or pandering to) the vaccination-autism bandwagon, when really he was probably referring to encephalopathy linked to pertussis vaccine.

  4. The ordeal began on February 25 when the mom brought her son to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine?an alternative medicine practice?with a high fever. The doctor told her to take him to the hospital because the boy was unvaccinated and the doctor feared he could have meningitis, a life-threatening disease.

    Alternative medicine. As in, “not medicine”.

    This is an important detail that was left out of the coverage I had previously seen. The reason the “family doctor” didn’t properly diagnose the child’s condition and sent them off to the ER is that the doctor is in no way qualified to make such a diagnosis. Because a naturopath is not a doctor. Not even remotely close.

    In fact, the family is lucky they got a naturopath that had enough ethics to say “I don’t know, but this looks serious. You should see a doctor”. It could easily have gone the other way, with a dangerously ill child getting some quack treatment and suffering serious harm.

    But shame on the police, the DA and the entire state apparatus for endorsing these quacks – to the tune of using guns to enforce their uninformed opinions on a family. I never imagined that the scourge of Supplementary, Complementary and Alternative Medicine (SCAM) could cause harm via this novel method.

    1. Because a naturopath is not a doctor. Not even remotely close.

      Quick somebody tell the atheists that a religion is being instituted by the state at the barrel of a gun!

      I’m sure they’ll fall all over themselves being snarky to Christians on the internet.

    2. NDs, DOs, and all other sorts of non-MD doctors still must follow the same legal requirements as MDs. If the family sues, they’re just wasting their time and money.

      Try talking to actual doctors before spewing this nonsense.

      1. If the family sues, they’re just wasting their time and money.

        Fuck that noise, MD refers you to the ER under the guise of Meningitis and it turns out to be RSV you can and probably should sue the fuck out of him. If the kid’s fever spikes above 100-101, heart rate picks up or the kid gets agitated, then go to the ER. Otherwise, it’s likely a low grade infection that should clear in 1-2 days.

        Try talking to actual doctors before spewing this nonsense.

        The fuck do doctors know about the law? Especially a “doctor” that can’t tell the difference between meningitis and RSV. If you are a doctor, you’d really want to shut the hell up now as defending this guy is doing your profession no favors. You don’t have to armchair it in hindsight but inaccurately refuting the facts in hindsight makes you look as inept as the “doctor”.

        1. Referring someone to the ER for something that can be life threatening in the short term is not something you will win a case suing for. What are you supposed to argue? That doctors aren’t perfect and they should have known better for thinking “better safe than sorry?” We don’t even know what symptoms the doctor observed that led them to believe the child may have had meningitis and here you are issuing platitudes instead of thinking rationally from the perspective of the doctor. Go ahead and show this story to a couple MDs and see what they think. I’ll be shocked if any of them even try to draw such a strong conclusion against the doctor, but you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone who would not have contacted CPS.

          Doctors know quite a bit about the law because they’re in one of the most legally perilous industries and often have to testify in court. You should see the rigamarole they go through for something basic like acquiring informed consent just to contact them for a diabetes study. You would think 9/11 happened the way department heads and research coordinators freak out over a misplaced form.

          1. At one point, I was a research coordinator. I’m married to a “department head”. I can’t count the number of separate times separate *MD*s openly asked if we could do blatantly illegal shit and needed to be informed that what they were suggesting was illegal.

            If a Dr. is feeding people to the ER and/or causes harm with a misdiagnosis yes you can sue and yes you can and will be successful. Most MDs know squat with regard to the law and pay for malpractice insurance for specifically this purpose. Their appearances in court are frequently strictly as doctors and saying “They’re in court a lot.” is like saying because a lawyer spends a lot of time in a hospital he could diagnose and treat people.

      2. I would NOT lump DOs in with NDs; distracts from your argument and diminishes DOs.

    3. Actually we can’t even be sure from that quote that the physician they saw was a naturopath?just that s/he was practicing at that institution.

  5. Ringing the fucking doorbell at 10:43pm.

    Fuck you tyrants!

    1. Then they call and the father tells the cop that he woke up the kids trying to sleep.

      Sick kids need sleep after all.

      I can see the police trippling down on this. They really believe that they are correct and have not abused their authority.

      1. These cops are threatening the father to do what a doctor says or they will charge the guy with a felony.

        Makes me want to say “come get up pigs”. Watch out bullets are waiting for you on the other side of the door. GET A WARRANT!

        Another funny thing would be to say, “take the kids”. They belong to YOU now. Haha.

        Of course, you must comply and fight them in court.

        Its why acquitting fathers and mothers like this in a jury trial are so important. Tells the state that even threats of criminal charges for being parents will not be tolerated by Americans.

        1. My first thought was “going to break down my door? I will shoot you to death once you do”. I probably wouldn’t, because I fear pain and they would probably kill the whole family and dogs too, but it is what they deserve.

          We live under a tyrannical government. It is evil. There are plenty of juries with low enough IQ’s to rubber stamp ANY government action. Remember the way the SWAT team “rescued” Elian Gonzales from his relatives in the middle of the night? (Exercising atrocious trigger discipline iirc) That was 20 years ago. Things haven’t improved.

          1. “I probably wouldn’t, because I fear pain and they would probably kill the whole family and dogs too,…”

            So, whose going to water the Tree of Liberty? Too many indians and not enough chiefs.

            1. Eat shit. I suggest that your blood waters the tree of Liberty. At least then it would serve some purpose.

        2. GET A WARRANT!

          They did.

          1. “GET A WARRANT!

            They did.”

            Yeah, but it obviously was from a court without all of the safeguards of a FISA court.

          2. Really? Why were they not saying that they had a warrant when they talked to the father at the beginning of the video?

            There was no probable cause that a crime was committed, so a warrant is bullshit anyway. It would be a warrant nonetheless, so the parents need to make a choice.

            The spoke with the police on the phone which was a mistake anyway. Never talk to the police, if they are trying to get you to do something, especially when they threaten to take away your kids and charge you with crimes.

        3. Another funny thing would be to say, “take the kids”. They belong to YOU now. Haha.

          They don’t care. They’ll happily take the kids, stick them in foster care hell and not lose a wink of sleep.

      2. Not only that, “let’s break the door down with guns drawn!”

        In what world does that make any sense?

        1. Look, they were putting that child in danger by letting him sleep in his own bed. Urgent danger. So it was critical that they run in and point loaded firearms at the kids. You know. For their protection.

          1. I would be curious if the Lefties cause an uproar over this like they have with Trump’s border wall emergency. The police are trying to say that they need to bust the door down as an emergency but if the dad takes his kid to the ER its not an emergency.

            It might too local a story but it really does impact all Americans. This happens all over the USA from time-to-time and is 100% preventable by limiting the state.

          2. They might have flushed the kid down the toilet!

            1. LMAO, good one, Zeb.

            2. Yeah, that’s some A+ snark!

      3. I seem to miss the part where they took the kid to the ER. Did that ever happen?

  6. “He said this got way out of hand, really, for no reason and we’re going to try to prevent this from ever happening again,” the father said.

    That’s certainly a generous take on what the investigator really said.

    “I’m sure something like this will never happen again, if you know what I mean.”

    1. No, all you have to do is parse it correctly. “We’re going to try to prevent this from ever happening again,” – what’s the best way to prevent *this* from ever happening again? Yes, that’s right, arrest the parents and keep them from getting the kids back – it won’t ever happen again because it can’t, because there won’t be any kids in their house for the police to break in and take away.

  7. Drilling back to the AZ Central article, they talk about the possibility that the reaction is due to the family being anti-vaccine. But if they were taking their kid to a naturopath, that is the likely source of the anti-vaccine tilt. Naturopaths are noted for touting alternatives to vaccines, like the homeopathic “nosodes”. Nosodes are fake, just like all of homeopathy, but the claim is that they are a safe, natural alternative to vaccines.

    So it is odd that their doctor (being a naturopath) would be part of a plot to get them because they are anti-vaccine.

    And in a pit of irony, the article noted that the judge has ordered that they are not in control of their children’s medical decisions and must follow any instructions given by their doctor.

    …. uh, would that be the naturopath who didn’t know how to spot one of the most common childhood respiratory infections? The doctor who isn’t a doctor?

    People ask “what’s the harm” with the push for state recognition of naturopaths and chiropractors to be primary care physicians. Well, here ya go. Here’s the harm. Now you have the state ordering a family to follow the directives of a quack.

    1. Interesting point.

      I still say that as the War on Drugs scales down, the police get more aggressive on other fronts. Most the Narcs don’t get fired, they just find other pursuits for SWAT violence.

      1. hey, they bought all those cool toys, and they had that cool training day down at the ropes course…. you aren’t going to deny them the chance to use all that, are you?

        1. The militarization of the police around the USA was one of the major factors to all this tyrant stepping on people’s necks that is taking place.

          If police still drove around in cars with only a night stick and pistol with 1 bullet, police would not be so eager to rush into people’s homes who potentially have bigger guns than they do.

        2. Harm? You want to compare harm?

          Death by medicine aka iatrogenic death aka allopathic incompetence aka quackery = third leading cause of death in US.

          Wow, but, Holy homeopathy Batman!

          You are a real slaver. You probably enjoyed watching the 50th Annual National Association of Nagger Image Awards the other night.

          1. “Death by medicine aka iatrogenic death aka allopathic incompetence aka quackery = third leading cause of death in US.”

            Citation please.

            also LOL

            1. Here’s a citation, albeit not of the sort he’d like

              What’s the harm in homeopathy?
              Homeopathy is a practice created by Samuel Hahnemann that believes that incredibly minute quantities of substances dissolved in water can have powerful effects. Read more about homeopathy

              Here are 437 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.

              It isn’t being a slaver to point out that adhering to quackery is stupid, and possibly lethal.

              Having the government use guns to enforce the whims of a quack is being a slaver. See the difference?

              1. An August, 2006, Lifeextension.com publication reveals that:

                (1) annual iatrogenic deaths approach 800,000;

                (2) the number of people having adverse, in-hospital reactions to prescription drugs is 2.2 million per annum;

                (3) the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed for viral infections is 20 million annually; and

                (4) the number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization is 8.9 million per annum.

                1. So many things…

                  2006…lifeextension.com publication. 800,000 (more than heart disease mind you, more than cancer)! LOL

                  Maybe think about where you are getting your data from, how those people are interpreting said data, and their motivations.

                  I thought you were going to pull out that normally cited Makary “study” which has so many confounding variables and isn’t really a study at all, mostly an extrapolation. I would have had more respect for that since at least the major news outlets all used it as clickbait, even though it is full of holes.

                2. I notice you offer no rate data. How many people are seen by an allopathic/osteopathic physician versus a naturopathic one?

            2. I presume that he means medical errors or “complications.” I don’t know if it’s third, but it is quite high.

              1. A local ambulance chaser lawyer runs a commercial claim that medical malpractice is the third leading cause of death in the US. Maybe he’s Mikey.

                Also, way to keep being a racist douchebag, Mikey.

                1. Sparky is a good whitey who slurps up every ounce of the anti-racist diversity is our strength progressive rainbow coalition shake.

                  1. Sparky is a good whitey who slurps up every ounce of the anti-racist diversity is our strength progressive rainbow coalition shake.

                    Yeah, because it’s either that or blame every dirty nigger and spic for all the world’s problems. Impeccable logic right there.

                    1. As if you can cite any post of mine the contents of which include the asseveration that “every dirty nigger and spic [is to blame] for all the world’s problems.”

                    2. As if you can cite any post of mine

                      Why would I need to? Do you believe that since you only post racist garbage one comment at a time the totality of your posting history doesn’t make you a racist shitbag? I can see why you admire John so much.

                    3. You don’t have to cite any post, but we both know that you would not be able to find even a one where I opine that ALL of the world’s problems are attributable to “niggers and spics.”

                      In other words, your contention is rather like the contentions of almost all progressives: emotional and irrational.

                    4. emotional and irrational.

                      You probably believe yourself to be unemotional and rational. I think that’s hilarious.

                    5. Well, at least you have a sense of humor.

                    6. Here’s a post from last week where you say “Championing anti-racism is evil, per se.” Which is certainly questionable.

                      At the very least, you have a strong tendency to bring up race very frequently.

                    7. No, BUCS, it is not questionable to assert that, under libertarian principles, i.e., the NAP, that “championing anti-racism is evil, per se.”

                      See Azoth’s take down of Leo ensuing my post.

                    8. See Azoth’s take down of Leo ensuing my post.

                      That you believe this is what happened is also hilarious.

                    9. Tell us why it did not happen. If you could do this cogently, logically, and persuasively, that would be hilarious.

                    10. Tell us why it did not happen.

                      Azathoth certainly responded to Leo. His response was not a “takedown”.

              2. Yup. So are drug overdoses, interactions and misuse.

                But there are literally millions of opportunities, and you have to weigh the relative outcomes.

                Going in for a hangnail and dying because the doctor was incompetent is one thing. Going in for a massive heart attack that would be 95% fatal without intervention, but is 95% survivable with intervention and getting killed by a screwup during bypass surgery is something completely different.

                That’s why we try to measure relative risk and risk/benefit of various treatments.

          2. ‘Death by medicine’

            OK dude – there’s a difference between deaths under care and deaths *caused* by care. And deaths caused by error.

            You don’t break that down.

            Oh, and you don’t break down how that is divided among people treated. Of course death under care, deaths caused by care, and deaths caused by error is going to larger – several orders of magnitude large – because there are several orders of magnitude more people receiving actual medical care than are being ‘looked after’ by the quacks.

            1. Have you read Death by Medicine by Gary Null?

              As with the LifeExtension.com treatment of the issue, Dr. Null addresses your questions.

              Upshot: It is death CAUSED by care.

  8. After the other rants, I will say that the police on the scene were put in a tough position.

    Apparently the doctor called the police and told them that it was urgent that the kid goes to the hospital. They even took the step of contacting the doctor from the scene to double check.

    If that is the case, I don’t know what they are supposed to do. Expecting a couple of the state’s goons to be experts in pediatric medicine so that they can divine that the naturopath is not a doctor and therefore is not qualified to make those judgements is a bit much. And the “doctor” doubled down when asked.

    So now what would you do? You are told by someone who is supposedly a reliable expert that the child’s life is in danger. The parents won’t let you see the kid, won’t come outside to talk about getting the kid to the hospital where the danger can be mitigated…

    What to do, what to do? You walk away and that kid dies or is paralyzed by meningitis, you not only lose your career, you might go to jail yourself. Plus, you gotta live with that.

    1. Additionally, they pulled a hammer out of the tool belt. Why are we surprised that something got treated like a nail. They used the wrong tool. It isn’t the hammer’s fault that you tried to use it to open a jar of pickles.

      I don’t know what else they could have done. They listened to the expert. They got a court order… Nobody got shot.

      About the best you could ask them to do, given the circumstances. The mistakes were upstream of those folks.

    2. As you pointed out – he’s a naturopath, not a doctor. If they had done a few seconds check on his credentials they’d have seen that. And then they should have had the sense to tell DCS to fuck right off.

      Yes, Arizona licenses naturopaths (sadly) – and they call themselves doctors. But a physicist Ph.D. can call himself doctor also, no one’s breaking down doors for ignoring his treatment advice.

    3. You walk away and that kid dies or is paralyzed by meningitis

      Just like with the vaccine, you’re making a leap here. I don’t know that I’d fault the police for not knowing but your average internist, the kind that completed med school, should be able to diagnose meningitis (as well as RSV) and should only have to refer you to the ER for a more specific testing or more serious issues related to it. As I indicated in the previous thread with just a sub-101 fever and no other symptoms, a lot of internists and ERs will tell you not to come in.

      Your average nurse practitioner running the local minute clinic should be able to diagnose RSV. They need to hammer the fuck out of this guy for failing at pretending to be a doctor.

    4. +1
      Hearing only the headline, yes it seems crazy that a disagreement with a naturopath “doctor” lead to their door being busted down by SWAT at 1 am. But given what it seems the police knew, it doesn’t look like the police had much of a choice. The doctor says it’s life threatening, DCS provides a warrant.

      The family certainly acted in a way that made things worse for them. Whether it’s right or wrong that police are ordering them at night to take their kid to the ER, if police show up and say they have a warrant, you’re better off doing what they say. Go to the media, write your politicians, complain about it later, sure. But these guys are trained to combat resistance with force, and told it is their job to do so.

    5. “If that is the case, I don’t know what they are supposed to do.” “You are told by someone who is supposedly a reliable expert that the child’s life is in danger. The parents won’t let you see the kid, won’t come outside to talk about getting the kid to the hospital where the danger can be mitigated…

      FFS you ignore the obvious and verifiable danger right outside the child’s home disguised in a costume. What do Them do? How about the cop says we would be happy to assist you in seeking medical care especially if cost is an issue. IF parent still refuses you advise that if the child’s condition should take a turn for the worse they should seek medical care. Also, if something tragic were to happen to the child as a result of not receiving timely medical care based on the situation that their will be an investigation. It then immediately ends with Them saying, I hope your child makes a full recovery. Have a good night.

      Are you arguing the parent cannot be trusted or is not expert enough to take their own child’s temperature? The parents DID take THEIR child for medical care and made an informed decision based on the fever subsiding. Another case of worst first mindset where only the state’s judgement matters.

      Fuck off sympathizer.

      1. They already did the evaluation of “this kid has to go to the doctor now” – provided by a quack, but they don’t know that. So your “wait and see if he gets worse” solution is not open to them.

        The cops on the scene were put in the position of “doctor says kid is in life threatening situation. Get to ER immediately!”

        Parents say “no, you can’t see the kid. He’s asleep. Trust us, he’ll be fine”.

        And your diagnosis is that a street cop is supposed to weigh all of that, the orders of CPS and a judge and say “well, let them figure it out”.

        Yeah, that’s something he’s equipped to do! (insert eyeroll emojii here)

        Street cops are glorified errand boys with guns. Someone else sent them to go get the kid. They went and got the kid. Blaming them is kinda silly. Blame the guy who sent them, the politicians who gave that guy the authority to do so, the legislators who gave a naturopath the authority to make this judgement, the judge who saw fit to back it all up with a warrant… all of those people made huge mistakes that cost everyone.

        The cops? They did what they are supposed to do in this situation. They have a kid who is in danger, CPS and a judge say take the kid, they took the kid.

        I’m not saying the state is right. Quite the opposite. I’m saying that it is stupid to blame the clerk of court for putting your citation for speeding onto the docket. By the time it reaches his desk, that decision is already made.

        1. Now, while we are talking about “put in that position”, let’s talk about the parents.

          Some guys come banging on the door in the middle of the night and say they are going to take your kid away if you don’t do exactly as they say.

          What do you do?

          Would it be beyond the pale to meet them at the door with a shotgun? I’d say not. But then that would get you shot. Or them shot. Or both. Either way, you go to jail, because having a gun near police is a serious offense.

          In fact, “because the state says so” is really not adequate to get me to assent to “you can destroy my family and harm my kids”. I kinda doubt that a message from the Almighty himself would be sufficient. If my faith were tested like Abraham with Isaac, I’m afraid I’d be giving whatever was pretending to be omniscient the big middle finger.

          So what terrible position were they put in? They had only one path to navigate clear – do as you are told and take the kid to the ER. Probably a $250 decision, minimum. One that they knew to be unnecessary. I’d have gotten salty with the guy trying to tell me my business too.

        2. Blaming them is kinda silly. Blame the guy who sent them,

          I do blame that guy. I also blame the cops. They’re not innocent here – or anywhere. They’re grown ass adults who can make moral judgements and decided to push this. They’re the ones who decided to bust into the home with guns drawn.

          1. Of course, the cops must share the blame.

            Only those who are not critical thinkers would opine otherwise.

            A cop is not bereft of agency. A cop is not prevented from aspiring to be more than just an AGW. A cop is not prevented from aspiring to be more than just a public sector parasite. A cop is not prevented from aspiring to be better than his public sector brethren.

          2. But what are you gonna do? You are told a poor little kid lies dying and you have to save him.

            You tried negotiating for quite a long time. You got nowhere.

            Plus, the parents suspiciously won’t let you see the kid.

            So in a fit of rage you…. call the doctor just to make sure. You tell him the parents say the fever broke and they think the kid is getting better, so they don’t think he needs to go in. The doctor doesn’t say, you know what, he’ll probably be fine. Nope. He says “you gotta get that kid to the ER immediately!”

            Now. What do you do?

            If you say you’d walk away I say you are delusional. You walk away and that kid dies in the next 4 hours, you are going to jail for negligent homicide, right along with the parents. Best case, you win acquittal and only lose your career. Plus, your deference got a kid killed. Good luck living with that.

            Our opinions are informed by facts that the cops didn’t know. The “doctor” was a naturopath. Naturopaths are quacks. The kid only had a common viral infection. The kid was on his way to recovery.

            They don’t know any of that. So they do the only thing they really can do. They move the boot into stomp position. Because that’s all they have.

            1. You walk away.

              No amount of irrational fear-mongering supports the proposition that there is any likelihood that the kid will die in the next 4 hours. There is simply no evidence to support that proposition and any asseveration to the contrary is just disguised defecation as the doctor’s anxiety is not evidence.

              1. Yeah… you go with that. See how well that one works. Kid dies, or gets brain damage or some other terrible outcome. Imagine the headlines – police were called out but refused doctor’s and CPS’s orders to take the kid to the hospital.

                The doctor said “get him to the ER immediately”.

                The doctor is the expert in this situation. It is only our extra knowledge that lets us know he was a kook.

                Claiming “I wouldn’t have believed the doctor” is a bit specious. Especially after giving him a chance to modify his position and bringing in additional experts from CPS.

                Remember, CPS and the DA and the Judge are all rolling with this same narrative. And they have the benefit of thoughtful reflection.

                Putting it all on the beat cop is misdirected anger. He deferred to the proper authority, not having any of the requisite knowledge to gainsay the expert.

                What is your preferred alternative? Ignore the experts and go with your gut? What about the much more likely scenario where their gut tells them to do exactly the wrong thing. Should they go with their gut against their training, the experts, their boss, CPS and a judge when their gut tells them to shoot the autistic kid who is playing with a hot wheel?

                I’m convinced they were put in a lose-lose scenario by this fake doctor. I don’t see a good way out, not after they went back and gave him another chance to recant his call.

                1. “He deferred to the proper authority,…”

                  Yeah, cannot expect a cop to be brave if he cannot cover his ass, his pension and a throw-away weapon is not an option.

                  “He deferred to the proper authority,..”

                  Good thing a blank check like that would never be abused or mis-applied.

              2. You and everyone else can say as much as you like that the doctor, CPS, judge, police et al overreacted, but that doesn’t change the fact that if they didn’t and the child was seriously injured or died, they would be held legally liable.

                1. You and everyone else can say as much as you like that the doctor, CPS, judge, police et al overreacted, but that doesn’t change the fact that if they didn’t and the child was seriously injured or died, they would be held legally liable.

                  You’re full of shit. *Would* be held liable? It’s weird how you can know the outcome of what would likely be a civil case without even knowing what grounds the suit would be filed under.

                  Seriously, I’m not a lawyer and I can tell you’re full of shit on this one.

            2. If you say you’d walk away I say you are delusional. You walk away and that kid dies in the next 4 hours, you are going to jail for negligent homicide, right along with the parents.

              No. Would never happen. No cop is going to jail for failing to protect any specific member of the public. Cops qualified immunity protects them. Cops can shoot and kill unarmed, innocent people and not go to jail. They’re sure not going to go to jail for just doing nothing.

        3. “Street cops are glorified errand boys with guns. …They went and got the kid. Blaming them is kinda silly.”

          Really!? I thought “Just following orders” went out with Nuremburg and My Lai but along comes you to the rescue.

          So, the Colorado Sheriff who won’t enforce the new unconstitutional state gun laws by doing the bidding of his betters, is what in your book? Comes down to choices. Morally brave or tyrannical cowardice.

    6. Cyto|4.1.19 @ 10:38AM|#

      After the other rants, I will say that the police on the scene were put in a tough position.

      Yes, they were. It would be appropriate to give Dad a warning, such as, “you will be in serious legal trouble if anything happens to the child.”

      But, in the end they should have just walked away. You can’t fix everything with a cop.

  9. . . . the mom brought her son to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine?an alternative medicine practice?with a high fever.

    1. If there’s a reason to charge the parent’s with neglect – that’s the reason.

    2. No one should be charged for disobeying a quack’s ‘orders’.

    1. I mean, they got lucky. This guy – he’s not actually a doctor – was genuinely caring enough to send them for real medicine when he thought this might be serious. He’s, of course, not actually *qualified* to tell what is and is not serious – being a naturopath – but at least he didn’t offer one of his quack cures.

      1. Well, you gotta have a little sympathy for the naturopath because the doctor* was probably in fear for their license/industry if it ever came out that one of their child patients died. This naturopath does not have the blessing and protection of the AMA. The AMA would love to persecute the competition for purely benevolent reasons, of course.

        “In 2009, the AMA targeted naturopathic medicine in its Scope of Practice Partnership (SOPP), an effort to restrict non-MD and DO providers from enhancing their scope of practice to meet the level of their training.”

        “Despite AMA opposition, AANP State Affiliates continue to gain ground, increasing scope and gaining licensure laws. Why? Committed volunteer NDs are relentless in their efforts to educate legislators on their education and training.
        https://www.naturopathic.org /content.asp?contentid=483

        Another case of CYA for the children.

        1. They have education and training in nonsense.

          it is the same as claiming that you have extensive training in astrology. That’s great and everything, but lobbying (“educating”) the legislature to allow you to use your astrology training to run the air traffic control system would rightly get you branded as a nutter.

          No different here.

          1. Nearly a million deaths a year due to allopathic medicine.

            Hard to beat that for incompetence.

            Critical thinkers reject the proposition allopathy is the way, the truth, and the light.

            1. “Nearly a million deaths a year due to allopathic medicine.”

              LOL it grew in the same comment thread! The extrapolations citing 250-350k per year themselves are a stretch to start, and usually only the wackos who have an agenda take them to heart. You would either have to be disingenuous or duped into thinking they are true if you did any real critical thinking or looking at how they got those numbers. Only the true nutters cite in the 800,000’s and what the hell, make it a million!

              The constant repeating of the phony numbers in hopes of fooling those who cannot/will not analyze the data themselves in hopes of recruiting people to your cause is something usually reserved for the political slavers. So good job there.

          2. No, it’s not nonsense. Take a look at their catalog. See esp. pp. 44-. They get the same courses & rotations I got in med school, plus a little.

            What’s going on here is an effort to break into the medical racket. They make it hard to get into that cartel, so those trying to break in establish what is to all intents & purposes the same medical schooling; they just add a little unconventional stuff so they can say it’s “different”, & then justify to the politicians why they should get equal treatment to the MDs?which they should!

            1. This was the same path followed in the past by the homeopathic med schools (which are now homeopathic only in name), then the osteopaths. It’s the path followed by the establishment of the American Football League when Lamar Hunt couldn’t get a franchise in the National.

            2. It is nonsense.

              Sure, you might get some guys who have a basic understanding of medicine – but the naturopath accreditation process is not anywhere near as stringent as it is for real medicine.

              But you’re not going to get any respect as long as you allow homeopathic ‘medicine’ in your repertoire.

              1. The big differences are the on-the-job training… which is where 90% of medical training happens, during internships and residency.

                And then the “alternative” non-medicine crap. If you are trained in biology and medicine and you can’t tell that homeopathy is nonsensical snake oil, then you should not be seeing patients. And that is the “plus a little” that they get. Training in how to identify the energy meridians doesn’t make you a better healer… but if you believe it is real, it does make you a quack.

                1. Look where they get their residencies. Tell me they’re not as good as others in AZ.

                  1. It’s simple: Are naturopathic grads allowed into the NIRMP? Can you tell any difference between diplomates in whatever specialty according to whether they went to naturopathic or other school?

              2. The process is just as stringent. Their cx just aren’t as good!

                You could not tell a difference in their quality. It’s just that 1 has somebody’s say-so, the other doesn’t have that same somebody’s say-so. It’s like being anointed by the Catholic Church. You might know theology every bit as well, but they have a string of hand-me-down priesthoods that make them official.

                Was the AFL as good as the NFL? They just were late to be admitted to the club. It’ll be the same w naturopaths & MDs.

                1. no, it really is different. A lot different.

                  That being said, you have a point about the AMA and medical schools working to limit the supply of physicians. This is a stated goal… to be gatekeepers to prevent the profession from being devalued by overpopulation. So there is an opportunity …. even a need for someone to challenge that cartel and create additional paths to getting a medical education.

                  But putting a wrapper around pseudoscience by calling it Naturopathy certainly isn’t the answer.

                  As has been said of complementary and alternative medicine and integrative medicine. It is like integrating an apple pie with a cow pie. The cow pie is not improved by the process…. and the apple pie is likewise rendered inedible.

                  1. But you said 90% of their training comes in internship & residency. So when they come out of those at some teaching hospital, how are you going to even know the difference as to whether they got in via naturopathic college or a conventional med school? Does the “cow pie” somehow continue to mess up their subsequent training?

                    1. I trained under MDs & DOs, damned if I could tell any dif during rounds. I’m sure it’ll be the same w DNM thrown in the mix.

                    2. What I actually love about libertarianism is that I do love the free market and people’s ability to shop around for what they want. You get the docs you want, and more power to you. Darwinism will probably not be to your benefit, but freedom is more important and your choice to see a witch doctor is your choice and I sure as hell wont get in your way.

                      I dont know what you trained in, but the most common feature of the lower tiers of med professionals is that you don’t know what you don’t know. To a medical assistant, EMT’s, some of the resp therapists, even a lot of the ICU nurses (not the good ones) someone coming through with a white coat that looks the part and talks the part is not something they can distinguish (unless they already know them). They really can’t tell much better than the common joe who is who, and can’t distinguish a doctor of nursing, chiropractor, or nutritionist from their ICU trained MD, surgeon, osteopath docs (yes they are legit docs and do real residencies despite some thinking they are like chiropractors), etc. Sure as hell if you cant tell the difference between a DNM and a MD/DO you either are surrounded by bad docs (could be the case?) or you just dont know what you dont know.

                    3. I dont need to see someone’s title in the ICU, I can listen to them for a few minutes and tell if they actually are worth a shit or they are talking out of their ass. A homeopath “doc” recently told me that their father “in no circumstance can ever be intubated”…when he was on the way to get one of the lobes of their lung removed…you cant make this shit up sometimes. But you can go to that guy when you want taken care of if you want.

                    4. Because they are trained by other naturopaths. So they are trained to give a tincture of some 100C dilution of a pyrogenic compound to treat a fever, instead of ibuprofen.

                      Now, you may or may not know this, but a 100C dilution of anything is just going to be water. But beyond that, there is no prior plausibility to the theory of “like cures like” that leads them to believe that this dilute substance will cure a fever. And even given that implausibility, it has been repeatedly tested. And every well-designed study shows what any half-knowledgeable person should have guessed…. that homeopathy is indistinguishable from placebo.

                    5. You’re conflating homeopathy w naturopathy.

                    6. You’re conflating homeopathy w naturopathy.

                      Not conflating,…. homeopathy is one of the “alternative medicine” specialties taught to naturopaths.

                      From their industry group at naturopathic.org

                      In addition to a standard medical curriculum, schools require their graduates to complete four years of training in disciplines such as clinical nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathic medicine, botanical medicine, physical medicine, and counseling.

                      You might recognize acupuncture and homeopathic medicine as long-since debunked pseudo-science. But clinical nutrition sounds reasonable, right? Except it is unscientific gobbledygook, not at all the same thing as real nutritionists (who were actually the top students in my graduate program that included MDs, PhD candidate in microbiology, cellular biology, biochemistry, immunology, et. al, Pharmacology, and nutrition science. (The MD’s were far and away the bottom feeders of that group. Surprisingly nutrition science was easily the top group, and pharmacology was the next strata. )

                      I think they are cool with other pseudoscientific nonsense like reiki, but I have not delved into this subject in some time, so I might be off on that bit.

                    7. Because they’re doing their residency under ND’s, not MD’s. And only about 1/3 the total hours as a real doctor-candidate to boot.

                    8. How many ND’s do you know that have 15k hours of clinical training before they started independent practice?

                      And did you know that most of the states that license ND’s don’t require residencies at all?

                    9. Because they’re doing their residency under ND’s, not MD’s.

                      I doubt many do, simply because there aren’t enough naturopathic teaching hospitals, or NDs willing to teach, to accommodate that number of graduates. Therefore although I don’t have the stats, I’m fairly confident most of them do their residencies under MDs.

                    10. Please cite ANY NDs doing an accredited ACGME residency with MDs or DOs.

                2. The process is not as stringent – by the very fact that it allows the baseless assumptions that are the foundation of naturopathy to stand. Some of these people push homeopathy.

                  FFS – are you going to defend chiropractors next?

                  Otherwise – if the training is as stringent and they are using tried and tested medical procedures – what’s the difference between that and ‘allopathy’? These guys call themselves naturopaths *because they reject proven medicine* for a paradigm that has absolutely no evidence of efficacy.

                  Naturopathy is not ‘doctors but without the AMA imprint’.

                  They might all be the smartest and most conscientious care givers you could ever hope to meet – they’re still quacks.

                  1. These people push accupuncture and reiki and reflexology.

                    The training is just as stringent my arse.

                  2. if the training is as stringent and they are using tried and tested medical procedures – what’s the difference between that and ‘allopathy’?

                    Marketing gimmick.

            3. You neglected to point out there is no pathology or pharmacology courses. Also their contact hours for obstetrics (for example) was a total of 27.5. A medical student can get that many in ONE call session. They have no ability to back their claims with scientific rigor. They are charlatans.

        2. “Our academic institutions and the CNME adhere to federal and state accreditation standards that mirror that of allopathic medicine.”

          1. I’m glad you’re trying, but arguing facts about medicine here is like explaining any technical field to the non-technically inclined. People are here for their ideology and not reality. When a genuinely complex issue arises in a highly competitive and technical field, people here are mostly out of their depth, but cannot see past their ideology enough to say “I don’t know.” Instead they try to brute force their morality into an issue they don’t comprehend and of course the answer comes out as a ridiculous defense of the parents and criticism of the doctor. You and I both know more intimate details about medicine (my wife is an MD, my inlaws are both MDPHDs) and we know that NDs and DOs have nearly identical curriculum to MDs and essentially are a workaround for people who can’t get into medical school or are more interested in family medicine/general practice, but for some reason the ignoramuses here are attacking the messenger because police are evil and not thinking about whether or not the doctor was justified (which they were).

            1. I bet you believe in ‘the quantum’ too.

              1. Just because there’s pseudo science doesn’t mean they aren’t also taking the same curriculum an MD does. People say the same shit about DOs and they have identical coursework to MD in addition to chiropracty.

            2. Saying “they get the same courses, they just add a bunch of superstitious pseudoscientific nonsense that they peddle instead of actual medicine” isn’t exactly a recommendation. Quite the opposite, in fact.

              If you can sit through a class on homeopathic medicine after having been trained in chemistry, biology, anatomy, biochemistry, cell biology, microbiology, etc. and not throw your hand up and say “what the hell are you on about, this is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of”, then you are not qualified to be a doctor.

              Now, I will fully admit that this eliminates a good chunk of MD’s as well. There is a reason that an organization like Science Based Medicine is needed. MD’s are pattern matching machines more than actual scientists, in most cases. And much of medical practice still lacks a scientifically tested foundation, relying on tradition and anecdote instead.

              But at least they are trying – integrative medicine departments notwithstanding.

              1. That’s a nice opinion there, but doctors disagree on all sorts of unresolved issues just like any other profession. Fact is there are DOs who work alongside MDs and they don’t treat them like cuckoo shamans. Since DOs are studying the same exact science and have the same exact residency and certifications, yeah, a lot of people who are far more well educated in various life sciences than either of us completely disagree with your conclusions and presumptions.

            3. If you think I’m going to cower your peusdo-credentials, you should just bow out now. NDs do NOT have the same sort of training rigor as MDs/DOs.

          2. . . . require their graduates to complete four years of training in disciplines such as clinical nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathic medicine, botanical medicine, physical medicine, and counseling.

  10. “He said this got way out of hand, really, for no reason and we’re going to try to prevent this from ever happening again,” the father said.

    The father said he thought the case would be closed. He said he and his wife had positive interactions with DCS this week.

    Oh no dude. This ‘got out of hand’ and the news found out about it. Now you’re going to have to be charged – so the Chandler PD and prosecutor can save face.

    1. The police are absolutely going to triple down on this to CYA.

    2. What face is left after Smollett?

      I know it’s Chicago but that incident should make an eyebrow or two raise a little.

      The system is doesn’t apply justice equally it looks like.

  11. I have little tolerance or respect for families who put a Naturopath above a doctor or buy into all these idiotic Medieval notions but I still think it’s not our business.

    Feel terrible for kids with stupid, irresponsible parents. But what’s the line?

    1. Feel terrible for kids with stupid, irresponsible parents. But what’s the line?

      Dude failed to diagnose RSV and called the cops under the auspices of a doctor diagnosising meningitis. When morons drive up the cost of naturopathic malpractice insurance costs by calling police officers, the problem will solve itself.

      1. So true and this.

    2. I have little tolerance or respect for families who put a Naturopath above a doctor

      Was there a doctor giving different advice to them from what the naturopath did? I thought the point was that they didn’t follow the naturopath’s advice.

    3. Dirty hippie doctors are actually pretty legit on a lot of issues… My dad goes to an MD/ND, so has both degrees.

      The problem with modern doctors is they literally are NOT TAUGHT about a lot of shit that is important for health. Like nutrition. They receive almost zero nutrition training, so if they don’t actively seek this info on their own, they end up being totally ignorant on a lot of it. NDs tend to focus on getting to the root of problems, which tends to come down to life choices. An MD will tell you to pop some pill that will mask problems, an ND will tell you to change XYZ habits and especially eat foods that have XYZ properties as proven by scientific testing.

      IMO NDs take a better approach to most chronic illnesses… Whereas modern western medicine is the shit for acute issues.

      In short if I had diabetes, I’d rather go to an ND… But if I have a severe infection of some crazy sort, I’d rather just use the typical MD stuff. The reality is a proper balancing of BOTH is what ALL doctors should be, and the only reason NDs even exist is because of the horribly bad training MDs receive on certain subjects nowadays.

  12. ” Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine?an alternative medicine practice? ”
    Who supplied the accreditation for the ‘college’?
    Was the doctor a real doctor? You know, and MD? Licensed for a pediatric practice?

    So a doctor can order cops just like a real live judge, and completely skip the trivial ‘get a warrant’ step?
    Anyone showing up in the dead of night claiming to be a cop better have lots of paper handy.

    Small amount of logic and reason; CPS must operate in the light of day, using only real cops, not SWAT.

    1. This is the direct result of the push to have naturopaths licensed by the state and authorized to act as primary care physicians. They have been working hard on this at the state level, and have had quite a few successes. AZ is one of them.

      So no, as an arm of the state, apparently they don’t know the difference.

      And they did go to a judge who ordered the children removed.

      Because what’s he gonna do? Second guess the boots on the ground?

      Once the call was made, this was a machine that was only headed in one direction. There’s no stopping it, short of compliance.

      1. They get all the same training as MDs.

        1. No. They get the same classes, theoretically. The training isn’t even close.

          A quick google turns up this post about the differences between ND and MD education.

          More importantly, they are trained in nonsense. You can’t really handwave that part away, since it is the central core of what makes a naturopath a naturopath.

          (the author goes on some ad-hominem attacks about the quality of the applicants, which are not completely irrelevant… but really they are mostly irrelevant. If the students were all 150+ IQ folks it wouldn’t make naturopathy any more valid. )

          1. As I said in my post above, the fact is that SOME aspects of hippie doctor stuff are actually better than the TYPICAL way modern MDs treat things. IMO going to an MD/ND is the way to fly, because that type of training SHOULD be what all MDs get. The typical MD training nowadays teaches them virtually nothing about nutrition… FUCKING NUTRITION, which is 100% the most important factor for a persons life! It’s insane.

            I HATE hippies… But those Birkenstock wearing fags aren’t wrong about everything.

        2. Please stop spewing this bullshit.

        3. Troll AF. This is literally like saying the guys doing crossfit 1-2 times a week have the physical fitness of a marine that did boot camp and has been deployed twice, recently. Not even close.

      2. “There’s no stopping it, short of compliance, aka prostrated submission, or a menacing wall of resistance.” FTFY Obviously, these parents did not take the “It takes a village” meme to heart. Must have thought it was just a suggestion.

        Get woke, parents. #stop-the-child-catchers
        Beware men with nets, driving horse drawn cages and offering sweets

    2. So a doctor can order cops just like a real live judge, and completely skip the trivial ‘get a warrant’ step?

      Nope on both accounts. Doctor did not order the cops to do anything, and the cops did get a warrant (that’s why there’s such a time gap between “tried to see the kid” and “entered the house”).

      And finally, it wasn’t SWAT, it was just the cops.

      Reason isn’t doing a very good job of giving the whole situation here.

  13. The father said he thought the case would be closed. He said he and his wife had positive interactions with DCS this week. “They acted like we’re going to get our kids back,” he said.

    Emphases added. What could possibly go wrong?

    1. Those statements should be evaluated in the context of other evidence of that man’s level of judgment and credibility.

    1. “ARIZONA IN THE NEWS!”

      Florida is happy for the distraction.

      1. IL quietly returns to filling graves and stuffing ballot boxes while everybody’s staring at AZ and FL.

  14. The laws need to be changed. The cops should have been shot dead as soon as they started breaking into this man’s house.

    1. At least charged with child endangerment…

  15. Cheer when cops are shot in the fucking faces

  16. Cheer when cops are shot in the fucking faces

  17. Wow. This is pathetic.

    RSV is a mild illness that generally does not generate many symptoms outside a short-lived spiked fever and is followed by a rash presenting on the torso, legs, and arms within 24 hours of the fever. The fever is gone by then.

    Both the fever and rash can cause new parents concern, but by the time you’ve got a few kids under your belt, if its a rapid fever that goes away by end of day, you know your gonna see a rash the next day.

    102 is not that high of a fever. I had a child who would get unexplained fevers of 104-105 (when she was cutting a tooth). At some point, we stopped going to the doctor for them. She did tests the first few times until she just said it’s her immune system. Control the fever. Bring her in if she shows any other symptoms other than fever.

    That’s how we deal with fevers in our household.

    Nothing that demands hospital visits.

  18. Denying care to a child is a crime. The doctor had their own reasons to test the child for meningitis. Meningitis is highly contagious and doctors can’t operate on maybes because then they’re legally liable. Doctor did what every doctor does in this situation and honestly, fuck Reason for trying to make this a police/nanny state issue when in reality it’s about stupid parents not understanding that when the doctor says “I need to test your child” that ISN’T A FUCKING REQUEST.

    1. Nobody denied care to the child.

      For a guy who insists a naturopath is equivalent to an MD you sure seem insistent that the ‘natural care’ provided by the parents – which was effective, mind – is illegitimate.

      1. What do those issues have to do w each other? That’s like writing, “For someone who [likes/dislikes] Trump, you sure have queer ideas about [deep dish pizza|climate change|STEVE SMITH]”

      2. Nice strawman. I never said they were equivalent. I said they don’t deserve the bad rap they get and they have a lot of the same coursework. I also never said anything about whether or not their care was illegitimate. I said that they do not have the legal right to refuse orders from a licensed medical professional with regards to the wellbeing of their child. Children are minors and do not have the right to refuse care the same way you or I do. Their parents may not act on their behalf. Is it wrong that the state has this authority right now? Perhaps, but that’s the debate. You can’t blame the doctor for covering their legal liability and doing their job.

    2. No, the types of agents likely to cause meningitis in a 2 YO are not likely to be “catching” in the form of meningitis. You’re thinking of the epidemic viral meningitis seen in teens & young adults. In a 2 YO meningitis is likelier to be produced by one of a few types of bacteria that usually produce other, or no, illness.

  19. “Denying care to a child is a crime.”

    And that did not happen in a meaningful sense. Why is a doctor’s legal liability the patient’s problem.

    1. Except that’s exactly what happened. Doctor ordered meningitis testing, parents ignored the order. Parents are not at liberty to take medical risks for their children.

      A doctor’s legal liability is to report and that’s what they did. If you don’t like how Arizona DCS handled it, take it up with them. The patient is irrelevant. What are you suggesting should have occurred? If the doctor did nothing and the child died or became seriously ill, they would permanently lose their license.

      1. You’re on crack. Doctors advise, parents decide.

        1. apparently not when the government sticks their nose in

        2. Unfortunately with regards to medical care, parents do not decide.

          1. Unfortunately with regards to medical care, parents do not decide.

            Conditionally untrue. Doctor recommends tonsils or adenoids out the family decides when/where/how/if it will happen. Doctor A says tonsils out and family visits Doctor B who says tonsils are fine, guess who decides about the tonsils? Escalate/deescalate severity of illness as necessary. Parents say “Do not resuscitate.” guess what the doctor does?

            So the real question is, with the obvious fact being that it’s conditionally true at best, why are you lying that it’s unequivocally true in defense of such obvious overreach and ineptitude? Blind stupidity?

      2. Doctors do not get to order.

        1. Objectively false with regards to children.

      3. So give a 2 yo a fucking spinal tap because they have a 102 fever and the sniffles.

        Nice.

        If a 2 yo has meningitis, it is almost guaranteed not to be viral, but most likely, bacterial. Which means their fever is going to just go down on its own. Bacterial infections generally don’t work that way. When the kid was feeling better, that is almost proof that it wasn’t meningitis.

        But aside from this, I actually don’t blame the cops entirely. A judge issued a warrant. For a cop not to serve a warrant and “rescue” (from his point of view) the kid is really asking too much. It is, once again, CPS who is primarily at fault. To go get a warrant from a judge based on nothing but 1 “doctor’s” word that the patient’s parents didn’t do what he ordered them to do is fucking ridiculous.

        1. You can test for meningitis with an MRI. You don’t need to spinal tap the kid.

          Regardless of what kind of meningitis they may have had, you can’t treat it like a cold and tell them to suck it up. They could die and they could infect others who could also die. Not verifying to the fullest extent would be like selling a gun to a known terrorist who fails a background check because they haven’t expressed any intent presently to commit a crime.

          1. You can test for meningitis with an MRI.

            Not on an infant you half-wit.

            Regardless of what kind of meningitis they may have had, you can’t treat it like a cold and tell them to suck it up.

            Didn’t have meningitis dipshit.

            They could die and they could infect others who could also die.

            RSV and influenza kills people too dumbass.

            Not verifying to the fullest extent would be like selling a gun to a known terrorist who fails a background check because they haven’t expressed any intent presently to commit a crime.

            You don’t have to convince us you’d make up batshit crazy excuses to separate people from their kids.

          2. Also awhild,

            Radiology has a role but has low sensivity and specificity for meningitis. Even under best of circumstances especially in a two year old, try doing a contrast MRI in a two year old, a negative result does not rule out meningitis which is itself still not a specific diagnosis.

          3. Having a fever : having deadly meningitis :: a person being a known terrorist : committing future terrorism.

            Brilliant. Just a fantastic analysis of the facts of this case that totally justifies state ownership of all minors.

            1. says the person trying to justify 100% parental ownership of minors. kids aren’t property. go suck a fck.

            2. says the person trying to justify 100% parental ownership of minors. kids aren’t property. go suck a fck.

            3. that’s not a straw man at all, 0x100. Also, i think it’s hilarious when you guys fear state ownership of kids, while many of you essentially defend some non-existent right to treat kids as property.

              1. It’s far more complicated than that, obviously. What part of what I said attempts to justify 100% parental “ownership” of minors? The part where I disagree with state (or other third-party) assertion of ownership of other people’s kids?

                And please, tell me, how, exactly, does one “suck a fuck?”

      4. Doctor ordered meningitis testing, parents ignored the order.

        Facts not in evidence. The doctor referred them to the ER. It’s not clear that, until later, did the (lack of) diagnosis involve meningitis.

      5. Nope doctor naturopath did not order any testing. She said you need to go to ED. She called ED with a consult and gave a report as she should have. Mom agreed and did not follow through.

        The story begins there.

  20. Please note the comment from police, “We’re from the government, and we’re here to fuck you up,” has been deleted for the convenience of the AZ government as not to offend the sensibilities of the masses.

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  22. This almost happened to me. I didn’t follow up with an appointment for my son because he was better and the doctor, without notifying ME, called child protective services. I was actually out of town and had to find a doctor that was covered by my insurance and could see my son THAT DAY to prove he was fine.

    While this is outrageous, and I wonder whether the cost of an ER visit was the parent’s concern if he was feeling better, I don’t understand why the parents lied and said they would take him in and then didn’t.

    I was angry and felt violated, but I took my son to damn doctor!

    1. Oh no, you weren’t violated. The social contract clearly states that the State owns rights to you and your children (especially your children). This was a routine situation meant to Keep Us All Safe.

  23. I am amazed that some of the commentators don’t get it. This couple, who might be stupid, brought their kid to the doctor, the doctor told them to do something they didn’t do, oh no! They didn’t listen as the doctor doubled down and reported them to the cops. The cops threatened the family, And then raided the home and took their children away. No trial. No innocent until proven guilty. All to protect the child, who never was at risk, because the parents were right in their analysis of their child’s health. So, the doctor was wrong, the cops were wrong, the kids were illegally seized and thrown into foster care at massive government expense and emotional trauma. But let’s keep blaming the parents, otherwise we might have to realize that we have enabled the state with way too much power when it comes to their ability to take peoples children away. CPS in California is also a nightmare and does worse shit than this all the time.

    1. Pretty much. In short, when the mom told the doc the kid was doing better he should have said “Okay. Well I’m going to have to still officially recommend you take him to the ER, but you do you.” And that should have been the end of it.

      Alternatively, the cops should have realized shit was out of hand when they said they kid had got better. But really, at that point, the parents probably should have come out with the kid and just been like “Look moron, here’s his temperature… It’s normal. He’s better. Can you GTFO now?” And they should have left.

      If the cops were still crazy at that point… You might as well just give them a rim job, and sue them afterwards. Sometimes you have to know when to pick your battles.

      1. “you do you” – don’t you mean, “you make irresponsible, potential life endangering choices for the dependent minor for whom you responsible if you want, ok?”

        That would be more accurate.

        If you’re a cop and on one side you have a doctor saying, this kid needs to be checked out, and the other side you have blue collar non-doctors with domestic violence history saying the kid’s better, you side with the doctor unless you’re a fcking rtrd.

  24. Meningitis can kill very quickly, and, it’s very difficult to distinguish from an ordinary flu. When a patient starts to feel better, that does NOT mean that he’s out of danger.

  25. Meningitis can kill very quickly, and, it’s very difficult to distinguish from an ordinary flu. When a patient starts to feel better, that does NOT mean that he’s out of danger.

    1. Ugh. Soooo every time a kid sneezes, coughs, or has a .5 degree fever they should be run down to the ER???

      Because that’s basically what you’re advocating. In 99.9% of instances if symptoms that were fairly mild to begin with start improving, you’re gonna be fine. Hence nothing needs to be done. The obvious alternative to taking that approach is freaking out and spending $200K a year on useless medical visits every year until the person hits 18.

      Grow up dude. If somebody is sick and starts clearly getting better, the obvious thing to do is keep an eye on the situation, but not freak out and do a bunch of pointless medical procedures. And people wonder how we waste so much money on healthcare in this country…

      1. google “straw man fallacy” and “reductio ad absurdum fallacy”

        less is more. O’Doyle rules!

        1. Ugh. Fuck off. Every time you post it’s just nonsense and trolling.

          A sane person would get my point: 99.9% of the time when somebody who is mildly sick starts feeling better… They’re getting better.

          1. see above. you should be aware of logical fallacies so that you avoid making them as you have above.

            Trolling generally means you’re intentionally trying to provoke someone by saying something controversial that you don’t necessarily believe. I just pointed out the fallacious reasoning in your original post. That’s not trolling; it’s just pointing out your errors.

            “A sane person would get my point: ” – people get your point. it just sucked and was fallacious. Don’t fcking cry about it, sally.

            “99.9% of the time when somebody who is mildly sick” – the doctor determined the child may have been seriously sick, not mildly so your premise is false.

            ” 99.9% of the time when somebody who is mildly sick starts feeling better… They’re getting better.” – are you a doctor? do you have empirical evidence to support this naked assertion?

            “99% of the time if a doctor tells you it’s wise to go to the hospital immediately, you should go to the hospital immediately.” See how that works?

            1. You make a bunch of bullshit statements, that common sense refutes… And then say I’M trolling. LOL

              I bet ya $100 that in a debate between me and you judged by 100 random people, they’d think my argument made more sense. You’re just concern trolling, like fags do.

    2. Wasn’t and couldn’t have been the case here. You’re ignorant of the facts of the case.

      1. the original doctor was concerned that the child may have had meningitis. it was a legitimate concern here.

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  28. good. a medical expert told them their child may be in imminent danger, and they chose, as uneducated laymen, to ignore an experts advice, potentially endangering their child unnecessarily.

    Kids are not property. Parents are not medical experts. Parents get a lot of say in how their children are raised, but not all the say, esp when it comes to determinations requiring medical expertise.

    Police had been called to that property for domestic violence reasons before. When the idiot parents finally let them in this time, the found another child sleeping in vomit, and a loaded shotgun next to dad’s bed. I question whether these parents should get their kids back.

    1. Well, you’re either an idiot or you’re… Wait. You’re just an idiot.

      Sick people getting obviously better are usually getting better. If you don’t know that doctors nowadays endlessly order completely pointless shit to cover their asses, you’re a moron.

      1. “Well, you’re either an idiot or you’re… Wait. You’re just an idiot.” – solid argument there, cletus.

        “Sick people getting obviously better are usually getting better.” – according to medical experts, not necessarily the case.

        “. If you don’t know that doctors nowadays endlessly order completely pointless shit to cover their asses, you’re a moron.” – you should probably kill yourself.

        1. Oh, try to call me out for calling you an idiot… Then tell me I should kill myself! Really taking the high road there huh?

          No shit not EVERY person who starts feeling better is getting better… But 99.9% of the time they are. And everybody DOES know that doctors order hundreds of billions of dollars in pointless tests every year to cover their asses from lawsuits. I can’t blame them for doing it, but sane people should be aware and not let themselves get fleeced.

          1. Also, I’m not checking back on this thread, so don’t even bother responding tool.

    2. The “expert” was wrong. The “uneducated laymen” were right. Go screw your appeals to authority, fascist.

      1. the expert was wrong about the kid having a fever and that the fever might be a sign of a serious illness? i didn’t see that in any version of the invents. Sorry, trashley. Doctors usually do no better than uneducated laymen.

  29. The nanny state is completely out of hand. And calling a Naturopath a “doctor” is going a bit too far. What knowledge did that…person…have to base a diagnosis of possible meningitis? Did I just here a very loud “QUACK”?

    Those parents were in the right and I hope they sue the hell out of that “doctor” and the Nanny state of Arizona.

    1. “making sure idiot parents provide their kid health care when said kids may have potentially life threatening conditions? What an annoyance. I should be able to raise my kids as i see fit. They’re my property. freedumb.”

  30. Those cops deserved to be shot when they broke down the door.

  31. This is Hillary’s Village that is now raising your child.

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