Reason/Soho Forum Debate About Israel and Palestine, March 18

The resolution: "To resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel must first achieve defeat of the Palestinian movement."

Soho Forum

To resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel must first achieve defeat of the Palestinian movement.

That's the resolution up for debate at the next Soho Forum, which takes places on Monday, March 19 at Subculture Theater in New York. Reason is proud to co-sponsor The Soho Forum, a monthly Oxford-style debate series that "features topics of special interest to libertarians and…aims to enhance social and professional ties within the NYC libertarian community." In an Oxford-style debate, the audience is polled before and after the discussion. The winner is whichever debater pulled more people to his side.

Tickets cost between $12 and $24 and must be purchased online (go here now). Admission gives access to a free buffet of light food and access to a cash bar with wine, beer, and soft drinks. Enter the discount code "reason" and get 25 percent off your ticket price!

The debate will be moderated by the Soho Forum's Gene Epstein and will feature a set by libertarian comedian and podcaster Dave Smith specifically tailored to the night's topic.

Here is information about the evening's debaters.

For the affirmative:

Elan Journo is a Fellow and Director of Policy Research at the Ayn Rand Institute. His latest book is What Justice Demands: America and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. He is co-author of Failing to Confront Islamic Totalitarianism, a contributor to Defending Free Speech, and editor of Winning the Unwinnable War. Follow him on twitter @elanjourno, Facebook: elan.journo and reach out at elanjourno.com.

For the negative:

Major Danny Sjursen is a U.S. Army strategist and former history instructor at West Point. He served tours with reconnaissance units in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He has written a memoir and critical analysis of the Iraq War, Ghostriders of Baghdad: Soldiers, Civilians, and the Myth of the Surge. He lives with his wife and four sons near Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Follow him on Twitter at @SkepticalVet.

And here is information about venue and start time:

Cash bar opens at 5:45pm
Event starts at 6:30pm
Subculture Theater
45 Bleecker St,
NY, 10012

Seating must be reserved in advance.

Remember to use the discount code 'reason' to get a 25 percent discount!

Each Soho Forum is recorded and released as a Reason TV video and a podcast (go here to subscribe to the Reason Podcast). Here's video of last month's Reason/Soho Forum debate, featuring fomer BB&T head John Allison and Moody's Mark Zandi debating the cause of the 2008 financial crisis.

Comments

[Chipper Morning Wood]

I see the Ayn Rand Institute continues to be a hotbed of insane lunatics.

[Eddy]

They're more interesting than the sane kind of lunatics.

[Crusty Juggler - Lawbertarian]

and will feature a set by libertarian comedian and podcaster Dave Smith specifically tailored to the night's topic.

How fun!

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Jokes about airline food...

[Eddy]

"So I wondered how come my airline food was undercooked, but I stopped worrying when I saw the plane was about to get a lot hotter, hi-yo!"

[Eddy]

"So the scorpion says, 'it's my nature, it's something I can't explain."

[Echospinner]

Seen worse covers of The Who classic.

We know.

The beards have all grown longer overnight.

[Eddy]

Heh, heh, tickle your ears with this.

[Eddy]

"Are there any terrorists here tonight? Come on, you're going to announce yourselves eventually anyway!"

[Chipper Morning Wood]

Did you hear the one about the crossfit vegan terrorist? He ended up being paralyzed trying to decide whether to hijack the plane or the conversation next to him.

[Chipper Morning Wood]

Did you hear about the Rothbardian comedian? His whole act was an exercise in self-pwnership.

[awildseaking]

Isn't the question redundant? Defeating the idea that there is an identifiable Palestinian people who deserve a state resolves the conflict. Maybe not the way people want, but a resolution nonetheless.

[Zeb]

This is true. Utter destruction of one side is one way to resolve a conflict.

[mtrueman]

"Utter destruction of one side is one way to resolve a conflict."

We solve disputes over real estate that way all the time.

[Eddy]

I'm something of an Israeli sympathizer, but the way the debate seems set up doesn't sit right with me.

There's one side saying crush the Palestinian movement and another side, I would guess, with what would qualify as a moderate position.

I think it's fair to guess that we're not going to get a full-on Palestinian sympathizer in the same sense that the Ayn Rand guy is an Israeli sympathizer.

[Eddy]

I'm aware that the rules of these kinds of things are that the negative side has the job of undermining the affirmative, without the same responsibilty as the affirmative to build up one's own position, but when I hear of a debate over Israel and Palestine, I think of something more, dare I say, balanced, with each side getting a fairly robust defender.

[Eddy]

Hmmm...maybe the negative guy is closer to the Palestinian side that I thought:

https://bit.ly/2wOXaDV

[awildseaking]

That's hardly a pro-Palestine endorsement. He questioned whether our foreign wars actually produce the policy objectives they aim to address. Now if he said "We fight foreign wars for Israel" then I'd say he's pro-Palestine and probably a crypto Nazi.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

In the affirmative: For the Jews?
In the negative: Against the Jews?

[Unicorn Abattoir]

That does seem to sum the argument up nicely.

[Last of the Shitlords]

I don't see an argument. Jews want to live peacefully, free of the existential threat the mirderous Muslims provide. The murderous Muslims are obsessed with driving Jews into the sea, or the ovens. Once they're done with Israel they would be delighted to finish the job the Nazis started eighty years ago.

People like can spew bullshit about how the Israelis are big meanie P's sometimes, but those efforts are only to protect themselves. If Muslims really wanted peace with Israel, they could have it tomorrow.

It's that simple.

[IceTrey]

Just like the Europeans treated the Native Americans.

[ClaLib ConFus NozMin]

As flat as it sometimes falls, OBL's satire is better.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

When's the Reason/Soho Forum Debate About Istanbul or Constantinople?

[Eddy]

You have to go back to the 20s to find a Greek equivalent of the Palestinian "movement" with a similar hard-on for that city.

[Eddy]

I mean, ha ha.

[Nardz]

Though the airport in Athens still reads "Constantinople" for flights.
At least it did in 05

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Razzles, a candy or a gum?

[Ken Shultz]

Pirates over ninjas, the Millennium Falcon over the Enterprise, Hitler worse than Stalin, The Outlaw Josie Wales over The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, both Ginger and Mary Anne.

[Crusty Juggler - Lawbertarian]

Lovey Howell > Ginger and Mary Anne tbqh

[Echospinner]

Funny.

It is an old thing as a party question.

If you ask women they would say Ginger.

If you ask men they would pick Maryanne.

[Ray McKigney]

It's nobody's business but the Turks.

[Last of the Shitlords]

I thought it was nobody's business but the Turks, as to why Constantinople got the works.

[Ken Shultz]

"To resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel must first achieve defeat of the Palestinian movement."

I'm not convinced resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is at the heart of American interests in the region. I see Israel as a strategic ally of the United States in the region, and aren't they likely to remain so regardless of whether the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved?

Saudi Arabia is another strategic partner in the region. They're likely to remain so regardless of whether the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved either.

A more interesting question might be whether being allies with Israel or Saudi Arabia would still be in the strategic interests of the United States if the Syrian conflict were resolved and the regime in Iran were to fall from power.

[buybuydandavis]

The Kurds are a much larger dispossessed nation, and much more distinct as a nation.

[mtrueman]

"I'm not convinced resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is at the heart of American interests in the region."

American interests are outlined in the Carter Doctrine, where America essentially annexed the Persian Gulf to ensure the free movement of fossil fuels.

" I see Israel as a strategic ally of the United States in the region"

Israel is a strategic partner, like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afghanistan. The only ally in the region is Turkey, member of the NATO alliance for a long time.

[Bubba Jones]

Wars don't end until one side gives up.

[loveconstitution1789]

Trump promotes model's fringe 'Jexodus' campaign encouraging Jews to leave Democratic Party

"'Jewish people are leaving the Democratic Party,'" Trump tweeted, quoting Pipko. "'We saw a lot of anti Israel policies start under the Obama Administration, and it got worsts & worse. There is anti-Semitism in the Democratic Party. They don't care about Israel or the Jewish people.'"

[Last of the Shitlords]

No one should be in the democrat party.

[Eddy]

Now let's hear from the Palestinian models.

[mtrueman]

Didn't Hillary Clinton demonstrate her anti-antisemitism when she kissed non Jew Suha Arafat? That was ages before Obama rose to power.

[Jerryskids]

The resolution: "To resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel must first achieve defeat of the Palestinian movement."

Interesting that there's a debate there, because the counterpart resolution - "To resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel must first be wiped off the face of the Earth" - doesn't seem to be open for debate.

[awildseaking]

That's sort of commonly understood at this point. There is no nation of Palestine. The Hebrews killed the Canaanites and there are no descendants. The Romans exiled the Israelites and ruled for a period of time. Then came the Byzantines, then the Umayyad Caliphate, then the Abbasid Caliphate, then the Egyptian Mamluk sultanate, then the Ottomans, then the British, and now the Israelis again. To suggest that random Arabs who migrated and lived throughout Islamic territories and kingdoms somehow comprise a nation state is absurd. Even if they did, it's conquered land that us Jews have been trying to reclaim for nearly 2,000 years. Sure, we conquered some people too, but they're long gone and the random Arabs now called Palestinian aren't descended from them. It's like if the Chinese tried to claim America because native tribes were Asiatic peoples who migrated tens of thousands of years ago. You would never entertain such a ridiculous request, yet somehow this request is entertained when it fucks over Jews.

[awildseaking]

Furthermore, the name Palestine is a misnomer. It's derived from the Roman understanding of Philistine and was meant to sever Jewish ties to the land (they failed miserably). It's not worth debating why the Western world continued to refer to the territory as such, but the fact remains that Palestine is putting the cart before the horse. Long before there was ever a Palestinian people or body politic, it was merely a UN designation for territory. It shouldn't surprise anyone that Muslim nations use the facade of the UN to prop up a "legitimate" resistance to a Jewish state. What's worse is how so many anti-imperialists delude themselves into allegiance with a totalitarian and backwards religion not even two generations removed from the Holocaust. It's as if the left has completely forgotten the impetus for Zionism and the rationale behind Allied powers supporting Jews instead of Arabs.

I still remember when it was called the Arab Israeli conflict. Because that's what it is.

[DenverJ]

It's a caaninite civil war, semitic religious strife

[IceTrey]

Jews aren't supposed to reclaim that land as they have been exiled by God.

[mtrueman]

"Long before there was ever a Palestinian people or body politic, it was merely a UN designation for territory. "

Is there a Palestinian people or not? Last comment you said there was no such thing. Or is it just the name you object to?

"called the Arab Israeli conflict"

But there are Arab Israelis. Just like Jewish Israelis, only fewer.

[Sevo]

mtrueman|3.12.19 @ 11:09PM|#

"Is there a Palestinian people or not? Last comment you said there was no such thing. Or is it just the name you object to?
"called the Arab Israeli conflict"
But there are Arab Israelis. Just like Jewish Israelis, only fewer."

Oh, look! Trueman kicks up much dust in the hopes that his bullshit might be seen as other than bullshit by those easily confused by trueman's bullshit.

[awildseaking]

Well now there are people who claim to be Palestinian, but where do you think that came from anyways? It's a fake nation state the Arab League formed as a strategy that tries to appeal to your feels and undermine Israel's right to exist. My point was that prior to the formation of the PLO in the 60s, the Arabs were pretty openly fighting Israel as just Arabs. If you actually read the charter for the PLO (or Hamas, or any governing "Palestinian" body), they blatant put their ideals out there; they reject the Balfour declaration, peddle the same anti-Semitic propaganda that Jews have no historical ties to Israel and that we're descended from Khazar converts, and that because of this, there is no place for Jews in the territory of Israel.

There are Arab Israelis in the Western sense of ethnicity denoting an ethnic Arab with Israeli citizenship or a Jew who resided in Arab territories, but that has nothing to do with the naming of the Arab Israeli conflict. It was called such because ethnic Arabs (non Jews) combined their forces via the Arab League and launched repeated coordinated assaults aimed at destroying the fledgling Jewish state.

[mtrueman]

"Long before there was ever a Palestinian people or body politic,"

That's what you said. And before you said that Palestinian people do not exist. Which is it?

"There are Arab Israelis in the Western sense of ethnicity denoting an ethnic Arab with Israeli citizenship"

Where did they come from? I thought such people didn't exist. Get your story straight.

[mtrueman]

" There is no nation of Palestine."

Then how do you account for all these calls for a 'two state solution?'

[Sevo]

mtrueman|3.12.19 @ 11:02PM|#
" There is no nation of Palestine."
"Then how do you account for all these calls for a 'two state solution?'"

By those who are willing to allow some bullshit reference in the hopes it satisfies the imbeciles.

[mtrueman]

Netanyahu mentions Palestinians all the time in his speeches. Don't fall for this Zionist clap trap.

[awildseaking]

We haven't shifted the overton window enough for an elected official to say that and even if we did, it's stupid to show your hand so early. Every non-self hating Jew implicitly understands this reality of what the Arabs have done because unlike most gentiles, we actually study Israeli history and don't just show up one day because a brave Somali Muslim named the Jew and won the hearts and minds of neo Nazis and Islamic radicals worldwide.

[mtrueman]

You must hate yourself even a little bit, don't you?

[DajjaI]

First of all we need to stop sending them billions to fight each other. Secondly, they need to proclaim full freedom and equal rights without exceptions like 'hate speech' and 'incitement'. Finally, we all dance the hora/dabka in the streets.

[crufus]

What exactly is the the "Palestinian movement" that Israel needs to defeat?

Is this code for saying Israel needs to kill all the Palestinians?

[Last of the Shitlords]

The Palestinian movement is the one referenced in Hamas' charter that insists upon the destruction of Israel and the extermination of the Jewish people. I hear the Israelis aren't too fond of that.

[DajjaI]

Hamas attacks only Temple Mount Jewhadis. Regular Jews are safe.

[Nardz]

There was no such thing as a "Palestinian", let alone movement, prior to Arab defeat in the 6 Day War.

That may be a part of it

[girleeee]

Most Zionist Jews even find the proposed position to be too extreme and right wing. We want peace and prosperity for the Israel and the Palestinians (in their own state), and we don't want Israel to be disproportionately singled out among all countries for its supposed evil doings. That is all.

[mtrueman]

"That is all."

You're leaving out what the Palestinians (or whatever name you prefer) want. If you really want peace and prosperity and not just their capitulation, you'll need to consider them.

[Sevo]

"You're leaving out what the Palestinians (or whatever name you prefer) want. If you really want peace and prosperity and not just their capitulation, you'll need to consider them."

You do not 'consider', as part of a negotiation, those who demand that you and others of your culture be removed form the earth.
Ignoramuses like trueman are ignoramuses.

[mtrueman]

" those who demand that you and others of your culture be removed form the earth."

Why would you want peace with such people? In a separate state to themselves, no less. Makes no sense, Sevo.

[awildseaking]

If India and Pakistan are any indication, I do not want a permanently enshrined and internationally recognized terror state satellite for Iran and other Islamic Republics who still have a hard on for my genocide just so I can virtue signal and talk about peace and make leftists feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[Tony]

Most of y'all are radicals, so don't go disparaging people who have been made radicals by far more extreme conditions than waaahhhh billionaires have to pay taxes.

[Eddy]

We are the Billionaires' Liberation Front! Not to be confused with the People's Front for the Liberation of Billionaires.

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

waaahhhh billionaires have to pay taxes

Tony, you and I agree on most issues, but you really need to reconsider this anti-billionaire chip on your shoulder.

Billionaires are arguably on the right side of history to a greater extent than the rest of us. For instance, many billionaires use their money to fund advocacy for open borders ? a position the Democratic Party is steadily moving toward.

[Sevo]

"Tony, you and I agree on most issues,..."
So the shitbag Tony is even more stupid than the troll account?
No one here is suprised.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Youtuber Law doing a livestream on the Warren plan to break up the big internet companies.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The resolution is rather vague. What exactly would "defeat of the Palestinian movement" mean? Military defeat? Ideological defeat? Genocide? Would "defeat of the Palestinian movement" be accomplished with a two-state solution? (After all, there would be no more need for a 'Palestinian movement' in that case.) Vague resolutions help the person arguing in the negative, because he can always argue "no, that's not what the resolution means, THIS is what the resolution REALLY means" and effectively argue against a strawman, except no one can prove that it isn't a strawman. Oh well. Hope Dave Smith's jokes are funny this time.

[Eddy]

He's from the Ayn Rand Institute. The laws of war are an altruist plot to emasculate America.

[Sevo]

So did Matt look under the sofa cushions and find enough change to pay for the steam-powered server?

[Eddy]

OT -

Portland State University becomes the wokest campus ever - claiming it's not a crime to disrupt lawful meetings with a cowbell.

By extension, it wouldn't be a crime to disrupt the Board of Trustees, either, though I suspect they'd change their tune if that were to happen.

[Echospinner]

I am as pro Israel as you can get.

The Palestinians, they are screwed but far more because of other Palestinians and Arabs than Israel.

I do not think Israelis are so keen on having this problem to deal with. The split between Hamas and the PA was not the fault of Israel.

If Gaza was on the border with the US there would be no Gazans to talk about. Same for Hezbollah.

[ClaLib ConFus NozMin]

It's interesting...

Seems like there's a few issues here and there, whereupon one's position is distinctly a-libertarian, despite that person holding a libertarian position in virtually every other matter.

What's the disconnect? Simple cognitive dissonance or sinister agent provocateurs?

[Bronze Khopesh]

What does the Bible have to say about this sort of thing?

I'm sure clarity can be achieved with a careful reading of the Holy Scriptures.

[marcopolo]

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[Rob Misek]

Try reading a copy of Nickolas Kollerstroms book "Breaking the spell" before your debate.

Unless you're afraid to, having kowtowed already to all bullshit from that crappy stolen apartheid state Israel. Then your "debate" is bullshit.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/.....-the-spell