Undocumented Immigrants Are Not Rapists and Murderers

Trump is politicizing Mollie Tibbetts' horrible murder to peddle false stereotypes

DonkeyHoter via Foter

Politicizing tragedies to evade facts and take away the liberties of ordinary Americans has become a disturbing ritual in America today. Both sides do it. Anti-gun liberals do it to truncate gun rights after every shooting. And anti-immigration conservatives do it after every violent episode involving an immigrant.

So it was a foregone conclusion that restrictionists would pounce on the murder of Mollie Tibbetts by an undocumented farmworker to justify Donald Trump's draconian interior enforcement and border policies—and ask for more! Still, the speed and crassness with which they did so was shocking. Trump himself, who never misses an opportunity to depict the undocumented as "rapists and murderers," led the way by insisting via Twitter that only electing more Republicans in sync with his anti-immigration agenda will make Americans safe from such murders.

Usually, vile stereotypes have at least a grain of truth in them. But the stereotype of the undocumented as "rapists and murderers" is the opposite of the truth, I note in my column at The Week. Literally every study shows that they commit fewer violent crimes and lower crime rates where they live.

Go here to read the piece.

Comments

[John]

Literally every study shows that they commit fewer violent crimes and lower crime rates where they live.

Literally no study shows that. And Dalmia doesn't believe that. We know she doesn't believe it by where she lives. I guarantee you she doesn't live in the same neighborhoods as illegal immigrants and never would as long as she could avoid it.

[Brandybuck]

I spent a couple of years living next door to some illegal immigrants. They were among the best neighbors I ever had. Hard working, kept quiet. Okay, the chickens in the back yard were annoying, but they were otherwise just fine. Much better than the loud drunk rednecks on the other side of me.

Immigrants don't come were to murder and rape, they come here to work. And they work a hell of a lot harder than natives on welfare.

[Bearded Spock]

If we are going with anecdotal evidence, then let me share the story a few years ago about the family of illegals who moved in with some of their relatives who lived a couple of blocks away from me.

There was a strong uptick in incidents of vandalism and petty theft that started about the time they moved in, including my back fence getting tagged repeatedly with gang graffiti.

Then when they moved out about a year later the theft and graffiti suddenly stopped. My back fence hasn't been tagged in years.

Of course, as Shikha was quick to point out, correlation doesn't equal causation. But like Shikha, I'm going to ignore that rule in order to support my argument.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

That doesn't even sounds like evidence. That just seems like you jumping to conclusions based on your bigotry.

[Nardz]

Really?

[Bearded Spock]

Well, you got me there.

Clearly, the only reason I could have possibly assumed the tag "SUR 13" on my fencepost (which stands for Surenos, a street gang from - wait for it - Mexico) was written by anyone other than white upper-class teenagers was my bigotry.

I've said this a lot here, but the attitude encapsulated in CMB's comment and in Shikha's article is a big reason why Trump is president, and why any attempt at passing any immigration "fix" on Congress dies a quiet death.

Americans are tried of being lectured by prissy, sanctimonious elites that they should suspend the rule of law and welcome illegals with open arms, and if they even dare notice that many of them are not very good people then they're the worst sort of bigots.

It's bullshit, and people have had enough of it.

[Disciple]

EVIDENCE:

Between 1990-2010 Illegal Immigrants:

- Raped 60,000
- Murdered 20,000
- Assaulted 220,000
- Burglaries 80,000
- Arson 2,000

This number are real people. If all of them have 9 family member/friends who loved them, that would make 3,820,000 Victims.

This is reality. Your sources are deceiving you. The GOVERNMENT DATA IS BELOW
Source: https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11187.pdf

[wreckinball]

So if they and their demographic, "Mexicans" are so law abiding WTF then is wrong with Mexico? Wouldn't is just be a crime free paradise?

[Hans Bader]

Studies actually are conflicting. Legal immigrants have lower crime rates than natives, but as to illegal immigrant crime rates, a study of Texas showed a lower crime rate, while a study of Arizona showed a higher crime rate among illegal aliens than among citizens.

My nephew and niece attended school in a mostly Hispanic neighborhood in Tulsa with lots of immigrants. It was perfectly safe. But then, many of the immigrants there were legal, not illegal.

Legal immigrants have a lower crime rate than natives, although this is partly because of the age at which they become legal -- the average green card holder gets a green card at the age of 38, an age at which many people who once committed crimes "age out" of crime. Crime rates go down, the more a person ages.

A greater concern with illegal immigrants is that if allowed to become citizens, they will vote for bigger government. They are much more likely to favor big government than even natives, who are, sadly, not exactly small-government libertarians themselves. See, for example, the October 22, 2016 article, "Immigration is expanding the government's size." For a contention that the illegal immigrant crime rate is higher than natives (which admits that the legal-immigrant crime rate is lower), see the October 20, 2016 article "Immigration Crime Myths" (an article that probably overstates the overall immigrant crime rate relative to natives).

[John]

Legal immigrants have lower crime rates because we have a large system that vets them and they know if they commit a crime they get deported. The fact that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes is evidence our system of keeping criminal aliens from getting into the country legally is working. It doesn't mean, as reason forever claims, that immigrants are all less criminal than evil Americans.

More than anything, Dalmia is just a nasty racist bitch who hates this country and the people who live in it and wants to see superior foreigners replace them.

[LeaveTrumpAloneLiberal-tarian]

Hahahaha... you're a fucking national treasure, John. Never change!

[BigT]

Dalmia: make us like India

[loveconstitution1789]

I did today. I shit on a MLK statue today.

Get it? Indians hate black people and they hate statues of Americans.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

One of the great accomplishments of our liberal-libertarian alliance during our lifetime is that bigots have changed and no longer wish to be known as bigots, at least not publicly.

Our bigots also object when someone mentions that Pres. Trump appeases, if not embraces, stale intolerance in general and white-grievance-based whining in particular.

[Sam Haysom]

Presuming that you have ten years left on this earth. You are going to hate the way this country drifts. There isn't nothing you can do to stop it. The days of oligarchic globalism, open borders, and racial divide and conquer are over. You are as antiquated as George Wallace in 1968. There is no comfort left for you in this world to paraphrase Job's wife- curse this country and die fossil.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

America has confronted and overcome successive waves of ignorant bigotry, often related to immigration, skin color, or religion.

The targets for demonization, hatred, discrimination, and fear have included Italians, eastern Europeans, blacks, the Irish, gays, women, Asians, Hispanics, and others.

But intolerance and ignorance have not been winners over all but the shorter terms in America, and our current batch of bigots seems nothing special.

America's electorate improves (less rural, less white, less religious, less backward, less bigoted) daily.

I expect America's arc of progress to continue to be controlled by our liberal-libertarian mainstream alliance, against the wishes and efforts of America's stale-thinking, authoritarian bigots.

Carry on, clingers.

[wreckinball]

Not sure we can overcome your idiocy though

[Fancylad]

The naive utopian belief that "the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice", is what enables authoritarianism.

[buybuydandavis]

"America's electorate improves (less rural, less white,"

Totally not anti white racism

[Sam Haysom]

Hates this country but wants every single one of her cousins to be able to come here. Why don't the people that hate this country tell their relative to not come here? Like if I knew a lonely 60+ gay guy I would never tell him to date Tony. Tony is a literal shithole so why would I want someone I know to have to experience that. No I'd warn him that if he ever has to use a public restroom in Tulsa to be on the lookout for an aged bitter gay guy.

[Curly4]

You are correct in your statement. Legal immigrants have has, at least, some background check made which weeds out most of the criminals. Illegal immigrants this is not the case though most illegals are here in this country for work and not to commit crimes. But there are many illegals that do commit crimes and the problem is if they had a background check run they would not have been able to come legally either. Here is the point if these illegals that have committed crimes had not been here in this country then the crimes they committee would not in this country. There is also why should the US take the mentally ill from other countries when we have enough mentally ill of our own.

[Disciple]

Between 1990-2010 Illegal Immigrants:

- Raped 60,000
- Murdered 20,000
- Assaulted 220,000
- Burglaries 80,000
- Arson 2,000

This number are real people. If all of them have 9 family member/friends who loved them, that would make 3,820,000 Victims.

This is reality. Your sources are deceiving you. The GOVERNMENT DATA IS BELOW
Source: https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11187.pdf

[Happy Chandler]

http://www.cato.org/blog/fatal.....me-arizona

A quick google finds that Lott's study is as worthless as all of his other studies. Lott starts with a conclusion and finds data to back up that conclusion, even if the data does not accurately reflect reality.

[John]

A quick read of CATO reveals that they commit the same fallacy of lumping illegal and legal immigrants into the same pile over and over again. But there is an endless supply of low IQs like you to believe it.

[Happy Chandler]

They were honest about it. Lott pretended that his category was all undocumented, when it wasn't. CATO said that, even assuming they were all undocumented (worst case scenario), Lott's thesis was contradicted.

[Sam Haysom]

I like the notion that an organization that exists at the mercy of globalist billionaires isn't starting with their own premise. Cato exist to promote open borders.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

In which poorly educated, superstitious, economically inadequate, shambling, can't-keep-up rural community do you reside, Sam Haysom?

[Sam Haysom]

Philadelphia specifically the Riepe dorm of the University of Pennsylvania. One of the schools your guidance counselor probably told you you didn't have the grades for bitch.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Philadelphia specifically the Riepe dorm of the University of Pennsylvania. One of the schools your guidance counselor probably told you you didn't have the grades for bitch.

Get an education, Sam. Start with standard English.

[Sam Haysom]

Eh you'd trade everything you had in life for an Ivy League diploma.

[JoeBlow123]

"Philadelphia specifically the Riepe dorm of the University of Pennsylvania. One of the schools your guidance counselor probably told you you didn't have the grades for bitch."

Hahaha. Well done mate. And good luck in school!

[Happy Chandler]

That's fine. CATO is for increased immigration, because that is what made and makes America better. The Chinese Exclusion Act didn't make America better.

Is there anything wrong with their article, other than you disagree with the conclusion?

[dpbisme]

BUT any crime committed by someone that should not be here is an INCREASE in crime and they cost the US between 13.32 and 1.5 Billion dollars a year. Gee that becomes a TRILLION when you add it up over 7 or 8 years.

AND how can this be? Easy because they do not pay any taxes since people with no education and who do not speak English make very little money. Since we do have a progressive tax system.

This does not account for jobs taken by them or the fact they depress wages.

[General_Tso]

Liar.

[Azriel]

Some of them are. They have admitted it when apprehended.

[Cy]

Mollie Tibbetts would have to disagree with you. I don't suppose you're going to take any responsibility for her tragic death and treatment prior to it?

No? Didn't think so.

[Happy Chandler]

Mollie Tibbetts hated Republicans. Her family has pleaded for people not to sully her memory like that.

[John]

That makes all the difference then. She must have wanted to die so that Mexicans can roam free. God you are hideous. It is just horrible to think people like you actually exist.

[geo1113]

And I was just going to say tough shit!

[Happy Chandler]

Nope. Her death is no worse because it was committed by an undocumented immigrant than it would have been had she been killed by a natural born citizen. She would be horrified that her death was used to attack immigrants, rather than something that would help reduce violence.

Yes, the person I am in your fever dream is horrible. But, back to reality.

[Cy]

The person who killed her was here illegally and potentially could've not been here at all if our current immigration laws were properly enforced. But our current immigration laws aren't/weren't and continue to not be properly enforced because of people like you.

You are part of the problem.

You are partially responsible for the murder of a human being.

If you want open borders, change the laws. Stop trying to circumvent changing the damn laws.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Look, it is perfectly fine to use the tragic death of this young woman to generalize to millions of people that you don't like. However, don't you dare do the same for that racist kid that shot all those poor people in that church in South Carolina to generalize about Christians, conservatives, or white people. That's totally different.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

You're a no-count bigot, Cy.

Fortunately, guys like you have been losing in America -- bigly -- for generations. The most recent half-century has been particularly bad for intolerant, ignorant, struggling, right-wing authoritarians. That's what makes you bitter, disaffected, and largely irrelevant.

[Cy]

I don't tolerate illegal aliens, if that makes me a bigot, so be it. I don't know how I'm going to be able to go on living by not supporting a murdering, rapist of an illegal alien. Woes me.

I'm just glad you openly stand behind his actions and feel responsible for the things this piece of shit has done after you and yours have openly encouraged him to ignore our laws on so many occasions.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

People like Cy are simply unable to separate an individual from their membership in particular groups based on their race, nationality, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. Yes, that makes you a bigot, Cy. No one is excusing this murderer. What we object is your completely illogical inference that this tragic murder has something to say about other undocumented immigrants.

[Happy Chandler]

There are lots of things that would appreciably reduce crime.
Rounding up immigrants is a high cost, low benefit way to do it. If we did not spend so much on immigration enforcement, we would have more money to spend on public safety.

[loveconstitution1789]

Lefties want destory America and Americans. Its war.

They declared it and its time to defend ourselves.

[Azriel]

Her death is no worse because it was committed by an undocumented immigrant "

Yeah, go with that.

[Happy Chandler]

Are you saying that her cousin and family are happy she died? Or, that you don't care about her and her family, but just want to use her death for political purposes?

[Azriel]

Pointing out the facts of the case isn't sullying her memory or using it for political purposes just because the case happens to hurt you politically. That's what happens when you make choices, you deal with the consequences.

[Happy Chandler]

Okay, got it.

Fuck her family, their wishes don't matter. Politicize her death.

[loveconstitution1789]

Lefties do that every time dont they?

[Uncle Adolf's Gas and Grill]

Tough shit. If you got drunk and killed someone in a car accident, you and your family would probably object to your being used as a poster child for drinking and driving.

Well, it sucks to be you, because you're still a valid data point, and it's not your prerogative to declare how that data point gets to be used.

[Happy Chandler]

So, her death is equivalent to her being a drunk driver? What?

[Uncle Adolf's Gas and Grill]

So it was a foregone conclusion that restrictionists would pounce on the murder of Mollie Tibbitts by an undocumented farmworker to justify Donald Trump's draconian interior enforcement and border policies -- and ask for more!

Just like it was a foregone conclusion that Reason would be front and center in the damage control squad.

[wreckinball]

Like deporting illegals. That is the law.

[100% Satisfaction Guaranteed]

Literally every study shows that they commit fewer violent crimes and lower crime rates where they live.

I'm just going to give her the benefit of the doubt here and assume (I know I know) that she is misusing the word "literally" in the common fashion, because I find it difficult to believe she has vetted every study ever done in history ever.

[mad.casual]

I did similarly except I'm not such a fan of the credentialism given to 'studies'. The Huns were not an anecdote.

[lap83]

"FBI statistics show that border towns like San Diego and El Paso, which have large unauthorized populations, have some of the lowest crime rates in the country"

If you cared more about accuracy you'd say "lowest big city murder rate", so they're like one of the fastest runners at the special olympics. Wow

[lap83]

Out of curiosity, I searched for "illegal immigration populations by city" and found this...
http://www.pewresearch.org/fac.....mmigrants/
Most of the 10 largest cities are also home to the most unauthorized immigrants in the country
What was that statistic again? "lowest big city murder rate"....which still leaves most of the HIGHEST big murder city rates in cities with the highest unauthorized immigrant populations. This took me about a minute to find. Shikha you suck at your job.

[Happy Chandler]

Funny, that list basically is the same as the largest population cities. Big cities have big populations of all kinds!
http://rapidcityjournal.com/ne.....43e3d.html

The cities with the highest murder rates span big and small, St. Louis and Chicago as well as Jackson, MS and West Palm Beach.

[lap83]

Shikha can't act like the statistic that compares the crime rate of her chosen city with other cities helps her case at all when the other high crime rate cities also have high populations of unauthorized immigrants

[Happy Chandler]

You mean large cities. New York is not high crime and it's number one on your list. Comparing absolute numbers versus rate is meaningless. Comparing metro areas, which you found, versus cities is also meaningless.

The assumption that large cities have higher murder rates than small cities and rural areas is wrong.

[Azriel]

[Citation needed]

[Happy Chandler]

I already gave a link elsewhere. Among cities of 100k+ population, the top 30 murder rates include populations from under 200k to whatever Chicago is. New York was not top 30. Jackson, MS, Birmingham, AL, Indianapolis and Fort Wayne IN were all on there.

[Nardz]

Point of note:
Birmingham is absolutely overrun by illegal immigrants

[Happy Chandler]

http://www.civicdashboards.com.....reign_born

3.84% of Birmingham is foreign born, documented or not.

[Happy Chandler]

http://censusreporter.org/prof.....etro-area/

For the whole metro Birmingham-Hoover area, 4.1%. Again, includes citizens, residents, and undocumented.

[lap83]

Yes I mean large cities you idiot. That is the stat Shikha is relying on, although she doesn't say it because she thinks the yoked commenters will believe her implication that San Diego is like the Mayberry of CA. Because everyone knows that you are much more likely to be murdered, mugged, etc in a big city.

[lap83]

*Yokel

[Nardz]

"yoked commenters"

That's really quite an apt description of our open borders crowd

[Nardz]

And like all resentful people, they wish not to be free of their own yoke, but to have others yoked as well.

[Happy Chandler]

http://www.sandiegouniontribun.....tory.html#

San Diego, New York, and San Jose were the lowest murder rates in the top 10 cities. All cities in blue states with high immigrant populations.

[mad.casual]

The assumption that large cities have higher murder rates than small cities and rural areas is wrong.

This is fundamentally wrong at the mechanical physics level.

[lap83]

Take whatever rural area Mollie was found in. The murder rate must have skyrocketed after she died! See? Iowa is just as crime infested as New York. But please don't generalize about the type of person who did the crime

[Dillinger]

>>>commit fewer violent crimes and lower crime rates where they live

for the most part criminals go to where other persons live to commit violent crimes.

[Bearded Spock]

"Correlation doesn't equal causation" says Shikha, who then proceeds to correlate low crime rates with high immigration rates. Don't ever change, Shikha.

FYI, US crime rates have declined to levels not seen since the 1950s -- back when we had very strict immigration controls.

At least she didn't smear all Trump supporters as racists this time. Baby steps, I suppose.

[Leo Kovalensky II]

"Don't ever change, Shikha," says Bearded Spock, who then proceeds to say "US crime rates have declined to levels not seen since the 1950s -- back when we had very strict immigration controls."

So correlation does equal causation?

[Bearded Spock]

No, just pointing out we had low crime rates in the '50s, when illegal immigration was very rare.

[Happy Chandler]

And yet the immigration rate is high now! Maybe immigration doesn't strongly correlate either way with crime?

[Azriel]

It's just as likely that we have finally figured out how to deal with high crime related to immigration.

[Happy Chandler]

Great! Now we don't have to worry about immigration, we solved crime.

[JoeBlow123]

Then why are you trying to correlate low crime with high immigration? Or is this one of those throw everything at the wall to see what sticks?

[Leo Kovalensky II]

Politicizing tragedies to evade facts and take away the liberties of ordinary Americans has becom[e] a disturbing ritual in America today. Both sides do it. Anti-gun liberals do it to truncate gun rights after every shooting. And anti-immigration conservatives do it after every violent episode involving an immigrant.

No comments from the Conservatarians on this part?

This murder was committed by an individual. Anybody who values individualism and individual liberty shouldn't be arguing to restrain the rights of entire groups because of the actions of individuals.

[John]

Great Leo, no do police. Tell me about how any individual bad behavior by a cop is just committed by an individual and can't be extrapolated to say anything about any other cops.

Are you fucking kidding?

[Leo Kovalensky II]

Police are very different in that they are agents of the power of the state. They should be held to a much higher standard than non police. That being said, no, not all cops are bad just because a lot of them are corrupt. I believe in individual liberty and accountability. Anything short of that is just a form of collectivism.

What point are you trying to make, specifically, with this cop analogy?

[Azriel]

"Police are very different "

Is anyone surprised you did this.

"What point are you trying to make, specifically, with this cop analogy?"

Tell me about how any individual bad behavior by a cop is just committed by an individual and can't be extrapolated to say anything about any other cops.

[Leo Kovalensky II]

"Is anyone surprised you did this."

Is anyone surprised that you don't see a difference between individual liberty and the actions of police on behalf of the state.

"Tell me about how any individual bad behavior by a cop is just committed by an individual and can't be extrapolated to say anything about any other cops."

Already answered: That being said, no, not all cops are bad just because a lot of them are corrupt.

[Sam Haysom]

I wish I had the level of shame tolerance that would let me special plead like this.

[Happy Chandler]

Cops aren't all racist as individuals. Cops are employees of a system that has proven to be racist. It's the system, not the individuals.

[Azriel]

A system is nothing but the consistent behavior of individuals.

[Sam Haysom]

Illegal immigrants are murders and rapists as a group. They just come from cultures where rape is routine and wanton violence is ubiquitous.

[Agammamon]

You've apparently never even been to Mexico, let alone anyplace further south. But you're right - those Canadians man? Total animals.

[Agammamon]

Oh, no, wait - are you talking about *Muslim* immigrants? Because all those guys are coming here legally. With your government's blessing and help.

[Happy Chandler]

Do they have ranks? What is the pay or benefit like?
You are grouping people together based on common nationality or ethnicity.

I'm grouping people because they are employed in a command structure.

You are judging the people based on their nationality. I'm not judging the people, but judging the system.

[loveconstitution1789]

The leaders are caballeros.

The soldiers are soldates.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Leo, the conservatives on this board hate individualism. They are collectivists of the worst sort.

[Leo Kovalensky II]

I know. I generally fall victim to the delusion that our resident conservatives can relate to individualism better than liberals. Which is why I often try to point out their hypocrisy on social issues... then I realize that their position isn't rooted in any kind of principled approach to individual liberty.

[Leo Kovalensky II]

Interesting... still no comments on this point from Shikha comparing the immigration alarmists to gun alarmists other than to deflect attention to the police somehow.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Literally every study shows that they commit fewer violent crimes and lower crime rates where they live.

This is literally false.

https://tinyurl.com/y7zghbnn

[Happy Chandler]

That's not a study. That's throwing out random statistics and misinterpreting them. They didn't study anything.

At best, it's a misinformed polemic.

[Azriel]

"My studies are studies but yours aren't! "

[loveconstitution1789]

Amsoc doesnt cite studies.

[wreckinball]

So I guess that is the litmus test for whether you are allowed to break immigration law. If some study shows your demographic commits less other crime.

So then we should import boat loads of Asian grandmothers. I'll bet their crime rate is pretty low. Sure lest boat all of them in.

Polish grandmothers also. But they are most likely white so no way.

[C. S. P. Schofield]

Studies of illegal immigration are kinda like studies on the level of booze consumption during Prohibition; you gotta wonder where they get the numbers, and why they think they have any relationship with reality.

While not all Illegal Aliens (Undocumented Immigrants is a lie; they are here Illegally, and until they become legal they are not immigrants) are rapists and murderers, some unquestionably are. Furthermore, the grey half-existence of the Illegal community provides for two things; a body of persons who are easy to exploit, and a hiding place for terrorists and career criminals.

I don't argue that the current immigration laws do not need to be overhauled. But so long as they are not enforced the people who benefit by exploring them (I'm looking at the Democrat Party, among others) have no incentive towards reform.

[LeaveTrumpAloneLiberal-tarian]

Speaking of immigration policy...

On Tuesday, the radio host Michael Savage posted a petition on his website calling on Mr. Trump to give immigration priority to white South African farmers fleeing "violent confiscation of their lands."

Now, don't get me wrong. I love Savage Nation, but proposing that we allow immigrants...from...Africa into out Christian homeland is a step way-too-far for this libertarian. That would be a no from me. Sorry, Michael.

[Cy]

There's nothing wrong with a new generation of African Americans.

[Leo Kovalensky II]

A-

I think you've finally got the hang of this parody thing. Add some hashtags for the full OBL effect.

[wreckinball]

Well they are under actual threat of persecution but they are white so no way.

[Hamster of Doom]

Shikha, the family would like us to not politicize this. Intern Joe did a thing on it yesterday, you must have missed it.

[Azriel]

Shikha is vulgar, she doesn't care.

[shortviking]

I do get a kick out of families declaring when something ought not be politicized. How about tough shit?

[creech]

High crime, low crime all meaningless. If there's a 1,000 crimes in my town before illegal immigration and 1,001 after massive illegal immigration, then I don't particularly care if the illegals as a group commit less crimes than the natives who were already here. It's one more crime than would have occurred without the illegals. Unless, of course, the illegals drove 1 or more native criminals out of business. If one could prove that each criminal illegal caused one or more native criminals to go out of business, then by all means let more self sustaining immigrants come in.

[Sam Haysom]

Central American gangs have been torturing and murdering a lot of black gangbangers in East LA. Think I can get an article published on reason using this fact as a reason for open borders.

[Agammamon]

No more than they're being tortured and murdered by black gangbangers. This isn't something new, this has been happening for as long as there've been gangs.

[Uncle Adolf's Gas and Grill]

But...but...but... if bad things happen that means we have to let all bad things happen!

[Happy Chandler]

Now imagine all the resources currently spent on ICE, CBP, USCIS, and the other agencies were spent on the 1000 crimes instead of the one crime. Then, you might have 900 of the former and 2 of the latter.

[loveconstitution1789]

Money well spent.

[JoeBlow123]

Made up statistics alert!

[al-saulinsky]

This is bullcrap and everyone knows it. There is no such thing as an "undocumented immigrant." If you are an immigrant, you went through the lawfully established process and immigrated to this country. As a general rule of thumb, I'd wager these people are generally law-abiding decent people. And because they went through the formal process, I would also wager they are the people most likely to assimilate and leave the trappings of their former nation behind.
An illegal alien, by definition, is here illegally. They cross the border illegally for many reasons, most come for the opportunity to earn a better living for themselves and their families but are unwilling to go through the legal process. They may very well be hard working, but they are NOT law abiding. Other illegal aliens come here for immoral purposes and these are the ones who rape and murder. Legally there is little difference between the two groups because BOTH are here illegally and should be sent back to their country of origin.

[Agammamon]

An illegal alien that isn't known to the 'authorities' is an undocumented immigrant. Immigration has nothing to do with whether or not you got permission from a government. Its simply 'I moved here to live'.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Shikha really was right bringing up the Fugitive Slave Act. If you lived in the 1850s, you would be calling escsped slaves law-breakers and criminals.

[loveconstitution1789]

Illegal. Deport them all.

[Agammamon]

Undocumented Immigrants Are Not Rapists and Murderers

Well, some of them are.

Look, we're not going to be able to get from 'is' to 'ought' if we don't accept what 'is' *is*. Some of these guys coming in are real bad dudes. Bad enough to need the President rescued from. The issue is, why should we tolerate/not tolerate this from these people compared to what we tolerate/don't tolerate among those here legally.

Everybody's just digging their heels in - one side is all 'vile stereotypes!!!1!' and the other side is all 'murders, rapists, they took er jerbs!!1!'. We ain't getting anywhere like this.

[Hamster of Doom]

This.

[loveconstitution1789]

Undocumented Immigrants Are Not Rapists and Murderers

Some are.

Every illegal immigrant is a criminal once they cross the US border without permission.

[Mark Question]

Thank you. Even committing a victimless crime makes you a bad person. Just look at all the druggies out there.

The gospel truth is this: If libertarians want a libertarian society, they have to stop being libertarians, join with the authoritarian right to crush the greatest threat to liberty we've ever known (the left), and then we can be free.

[loveconstitution1789]

Drug laws are unconstitutional. Its your duty to repeal, fight, and otherwise nullify those illegal drug laws. Even the prohibitionists knew that they needed an amendment to ban alcohol. The Lefties learned from that failure when the 1970s war on drugs came around. They just came up with the Controlled Substances Act and Americans accepted it.

[Intelligent Mr Toad]

Something very bad happened to me last year: a dear friend of mine was murdered. His name was Roddy Posa. And at the trial, I found out that the murderer was a convicted criminal. His crime was setting traps for lobsters, out of season.

So now, I'm trying to get my congressman to pass a law to impose long mandatory minimum prison sentences for lobster-fishing violations. I know that this law won't bring Roddy back to life, but at least it will make other Americans safer. I know it will make Americans safer, because if this law had been in place, and enforced, last year, then the guy who murdered my friend Roddy would have been safely behind bars, and Roddy would still be alive.

Tell your congressman: not one more Roddy Posa! Pass mandatory minimum prison sentences for lobster-fishing violations, NOW!

[wreckinball]

Yea almost the same thing. Dumb fucks both authoring and commenting

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

[Golf clap]

Sorry about your friend.

[Sam Haysom]

Hey round up the votes and have at. Despite billions upon billions up dollars poured into propaganda the American people have opted for rational ordered border sovereignty. Sucks to be you but hey what can i say you are on the wrong side of history bitch. If you struggle you only make the wall get taller.

People have spoken kiddo. You lost.

[wreckinball]

Well, this is the headline:

"Undocumented Immigrants Are Not Rapists and Murderers"

Mollie Tibbetts is evidence to the contrary.

WTF is the matter with idiots who write stupid shit like this.

[Mark Question]

They don't have to be rapist or murderers. Let me spell it out for you, Reason.

Mexicans do not have classical liberal values. Period. Only white people do. (I'm talking in aggregate groups here, of course you can find a classical liberal Mexican if you look hard enough. But it's like a pin in a haystack)

I do not want an electorate that doesn't value classical liberalism. If we're really being honest with ourselves, I don't think being born here should give you a right to stay here either. If we really want America to remain a free society, we need to expel progressive voters and politicians.

Authoritarian? Yes. But kids, we're getting an authoritarian society no matter what happens. Wouldn't you rather it be an authoritarianism that removes the weeds choking the garden of liberty, rather then the left wing variety we'll get if things continue on their course?

Frankly, if we really wanted a free society, we have to admit that we must abandon libertarianism altogether and enlist the power of the state to silence and suppress the left. Once they are gone, we can be a free society again. Until then, we're going to have to bite the bullet and use tyranny to fight tyranny.

[shortviking]

The irony that we have to be authoritarian af just to preserve out basic liberties these days.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

use tyranny to fight tyranny

Hard pass.

[loveconstitution1789]

Anarchists love dem some false equivalencies.

[Jerry B.]

"Undocumented immigrants are not rapists and murderers"

None of them?

I'd really like to see a cite for that.

[David NoIan]

Immigrants - documentation = murder!

Learn to read, idiot! I like to dress up as a clown and scare people at night! DOES THAT MAKE ME AN UNDOCUMENTED MURDERER???!!!

*snort*

Didn't think so!

[Disciple]

Between 1990-2010 Illegal Immigrants:

- Raped 60,000
- Murdered 20,000
- Assaulted 220,000
- Burglaries 80,000
- Arson 2,000

This number are real people. If all of them have 9 family member/friends who loved them, that would make 3,820,000 Victims.

This is reality. Your sources are deceiving you. The GOVERNMENT DATA IS BELOW
Source: https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11187.pdf

[LifeStrategies]

I understand that he's an illegal alien - not an American - rather than one who just is undocumented, one who doesn't have the documents to prove he's here legally.

Furthermore, I've seen reports that he does have American documents, but rather than belonging to him, they're stolen which means he's a criminal.

Your compassion should be for families of children murdered by illegal aliens, mothers like Kathy Hall and Aileen Smith and the many genuine Americans murdered such as Mollie Tibbitts, 20; Chrishia Odette, 13; Ellie Hacking, 4; Grayson Hacking, 22 months; Shayley Estes, 22; Edwin Jackson, 26; Grant Ronnebeck, 21; Kristopher William Eggle, 28; Kenneth Scott Mahr, 18; Kaybrin Ingoldsby, 8; Halle Ingoldsby, 8; Brandy Lee Thorne, 22; Dennielle "Nikki" Schermock, 25; Joshua Wilkerson, 18; and countless others.

Why do you stick up for a murderous criminal rather than try to solve the real problem, the many illegal aliens in this country.

[What's that smell?]

"Undocumented Immigrants Are Not Rapists and Murderers"

But SOME really are.

[Michael Cook]

The studies are lies. Often they are lies compiled by the bureaucracies of blue states under political orders. There is an old adage in criminal justice: "Torture statistics enough and they will confess to anything."

In my corrections career I observed how "three strikes" laws were adjusted and gamed to give certain offenders five, six, or ten strikes. In my very blue state of Washington the state prison officials also simply released thousands of inmates years early "by mistake" for years. This was all deliberately political. To people like this, fiddling with data is nothing at all.

[David NoIan]

I like me some illegal aliens when they bring me the good yeyo and the fine ass mamacitas. I gots a real good hookup in my neighborhood with the local Mara Salvatrucha rep but he's legit American born and raised. He don't give me no trouble because I take care of business for him with those LZ putas. Pop pop! Est?s muerto, perras! John better watch out cuz me and the holmes gonna roll up on this motherfucka and one eighty-seven his ass if he don't like my fuckin BOLD TEXT. Left - right = ZERO, bitches!

[loveconstitution1789]

Maga

[buybuydandavis]

"No fair! The Right isn't allowed to play politics by sad eyes too!"

[RealBillWhite]

They are not "undocumented immigrants" most have documents; it's just that their documents are fake. They are illegal aliens. Stop the word-play.

[Patrick Henry, the 2nd]

No such thing as undocumented immigrant. Its illegal immigrant. Or illegal alien is you prefer.

[dpbisme]

The term is "Illegal Alien", The author is showing his bias from the very start... and they cost the US a trillion dollars every 7 or 8 year since they do not pay taxes so why should we be borrowing money from other countries and increasing our debt for people who should not be here?

[Disciple]

Between 1990-2010 Illegal Immigrants:

- Raped 60,000
- Murdered 20,000
- Assaulted 220,000
- Burglaries 80,000
- Arson 2,000

This number are real people. If all of them have 9 family member/friends who loved them, that would make 3,820,000 Victims.

This is reality. Your sources are deceiving you. The GOVERNMENT DATA IS BELOW
Source: https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11187.pdf