Updated! Depicting Native Americans as Bloodthirsty Savages on Columbus Day

If you've ever wondered why conservatives struggle to win support among racial and ethnic minorities, here's part of the answer.

Wikipedia

UPDATED, October 10: Ben Shapiro, the editor of The Daily Wire, has removed the video mentioned below.

My statement on the Columbus Day video that went up on Daily Wire's Twitter and Facebook yesterday. It has now been justifiably removed. pic.twitter.com/ja6h8cW2af

— Ben Shapiro (@benshapiro) October 10, 2017

Today was (or still is, as of this writing) Columbus Day, one of the fakest of all fake ethnic holidays (and trust me, they're all fake). For all the chest-beating on both sides of the issue, Columbus Day was only made a national holiday in 1937, as a sop to Italian Americans, whom Franklin Roosevelt was otherwise fond of insulting as a "bunch of opera singers" and worse.

Yes, self-parodying SJWs at high-end, lily-white safety schools such as Brown deserve derision for renaming the event "Indigenous Peoples Day" and then congratulating "themselves for pushing aside one relatively powerless ethnic group in the name of an even more powerless group." But conservatives such as the retros at The Daily Wire deserve just as much scorn for this sort of sad-sack video. Haw haw haw, Indians were savages, don't you know!

In honor of Indigenous People's Day, formerly known as #ColumbusDay: pic.twitter.com/Z9ver8f4nN

— The Daily Wire (@realDailyWire) October 9, 2017

One of the hallmarks of culture wars is that everything must be reduced to a Manichean struggle of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, left vs. right, you name it vs. you dread it. Or, perhaps worse, an occasion for sad, strange little men such as Sen. Lindsey Graham to humblebrag about taking a day off to golf with a president who humiliated him in 2015 by calling him even dumber than the eventual secretary of the Energy, Rick Perry, and giving out his phone number to the public.

Really enjoyed a round of golf with President @realDonaldTrump today.

President Trump shot a 73 in windy and wet conditions!

— Lindsey Graham (@LindseyGrahamSC) October 9, 2017

The only way to win at this game is not to play it. Demand a different and better conversation about politics, culture, and ideas, one in which simply mocking and shouting down other people and perspectives isn't the be-all and end-all. As I noted earlier today in a post about liberal and conservative sexual grotesques Harvey Weinstein and Rep. Tim Murphy, there's a reason why a record-high percentage of us want a major third party to emerge: Stale, old parties and ideologies speak for and to fewer and fewer of us with every passing day.

Especially when that day is Columbus Day or Indigenous Peoples Day.

Gallup

Comments

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

"The only way to win at this game is not to play it"

So let's form a major political party and compete with the RNC and DNC, so as to "not play" it more comprehensively.

[Hugh Akston]

I'm confused. Are you..planning to start a political party?

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

No, Nick Gillespie is planning to expand one. Because he apparently thinks that Libertarianism can "not play the game" of *partisan* politics while also becoming a major political *party*. I guess believing that one can be a party member without being partisan was the next lesson at Oceania U after they covered basic arithmetic (2 + 2 = 5, etc.).

[Chipper Morning, Mean Girl]

Halt! Who goes there? Declare your allegiance! Cosmo or yokel?

And to answer your concerns, the LP was not formed to win elections, but to spread the ideas of liberty.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

If by "cosmo" and "yokel", you mean "Scyllacrats" and "Charyblicans", my allegiance is "sailing between them, carefully".

And I know that's what the LP is *now*. The point is that Gillespie apparently thinks that it can be *more than that*. Yet without becoming as rotten as every other political party throughout human history. My follow-up point being that that's the most quixotic thing he's done since that time he got drunk at a wind farm and rode his motorcycle at the wind mills using Soave as a lance.

[vek]

Yeah. The truth is the only way a libertarian party could ever get anywhere is by becoming "libertarian-ish" and playing at partisan politics.

Most people are moderately libertarian leaning on most issues... But almost nobody is a full on 100% libertarian in 100% of situations. I'm not, and I'm more libertarian leaning than probably anyone else I've ever met in real life, perhaps including Ron Paul!

I think the winning libertarian leaning party would be made up of a combination of Ron Paul types (principled, although the real RP has his flaws), Rand Paul types (right idea usually, but willing to deal and push some popular but unlibertarian ideas), Gary Johnsons (appeals to center left people who put social stuff before fiscal), and then more Trad Cons who take the stance of "These are my personal moral beliefs, but I don't think it's the governments place to interfere." to win over Evangelical sorts a bit. Anyone who things pure libertarian ideas will ever win over the world is triiiiippin'.

[Hank Phillips]

What the LP accomplishes is the repeal of bad laws by the vicious clout of spoiler votes. You can't vote libertarian and lose. Losing is for suckers who hand their support to looters.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Anyway, are there any factual errors in the video or not? Doesn't necessarily make it "appropriate", but if it's all verifiable that does take a bit of wind out of the sails of the S.J.S. Outrage.

[BestUsedCarSales]

Well, they didn't invent cannibalism. Also, various tribes had mathematics, farming, "philosophy" (Every culture has philosophy, that one bothers me the most I think, probably because I was a faggy ass philosophy major.). Just the overall things insinuated there are kind of obnoxious. The noble savage myth is obnoxious too for many reasons, but it doesn't mean this video isn't too.

Though, it's also obnoxious that we keep having "indigenous people" getting put into one group. Like, these guys are Italian from Italy, these guys are indigenous, meaning they come from one of thousands of tribes spread out across two continents. This is a strange reductionism I see from a lot of people who are ostensibly attempting to support these people.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Fast-Food Empathy. "Would you like an intersectional reference to LGBTQ marginalization in Pilgrim communities with that?"

[BestUsedCarSales]

LGBTQ is another annoying thing. They continue to come up with ever more complex subdivisions and rules all to avoid having to treat people as individuals.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Pretty much the dictionary definition of "intersectionality".

"We minorities are being tyrannized by the majority! So let's form all the minorities into a new majority and gang up on the new minority!"

[BestUsedCarSales]

It's human history. The hardest thing to do, is to take a step back, take a deep breath, and refuse to return sin that was done against you.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Ain't hard at all if you ain't tryin'!

Now, back to writing my future bestseller, "101 Ways To Skin A Serbian"...

[DarrenM]

I look forward to the sequel.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

You won't have to wait long. I already have "101 Ways To Skin A Croat" in the draft phase.

Under a different name and publisher, of course. My pen name for "101WTSAS" is Zbjertuziy Bouiuvilbyc, whereas my pseudonym for "101WTSAC" is Cbrezkga Zhnizlgili.

[Entelechy]

Especially if you've just been scalped.

Cue indignant libertarian French & Indian War re-enactors.

[Chipper Morning, Mean Girl]

Scalping was invented by the whites.

[Radioactive]

in all fairness, all the legit ticket outlets were sold out...

[Kllxyzn]

"Scalping was invented by the whites."

Hundreds of years before they even arrived!! That's how awful they are!!!

[esteve7]

These idiots don't realize the biggest minority is the individual.

[Tony]

Until the day comes when how you're born doesn't determine how well you do in life, collective identities are a reality, and that's because they're being imposed by oppressors.

[esteve7]

Blah blah blah do you even believe the stupid crap coming out of your mouth anymore Tony, or are you going to be miserable for the rest of your life?

Please cite actual oppression. Which you can't, so it's back to the sjw taking points

[Get To Da Chippah]

Some people can't go to the bathroom wherever they want!

[Tony]

You don't have to believe that it's a worthy goal of society to try to make it so that you are equally able to get a job or go to a good school regardless of race, sex, or sexual orientation. But you can hardly begrudge women and those minorities for working to that end.

[I'm Not Sure]

If you insist that everybody is able to go to a good school, the teacher's union will want to have a talk with you.

[Leo Kovalensky]

Tony do you really want equal opportunity or equal outcome? You do realize there's a difference, right?

[BYODB]

Equality of opportunity is already here, but equality of outcomes is impossible.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I agree. And I'm also glad we agree that current LGBQT politics are a form of oppression.

[Tony]

You're being somewhat facetious, but this is the reality. Straight white males (at least the ones with an inferiority complex) play the same identity politics game casting themselves as the oppressed--because they have to listen to gay people talk. Except they don't have to do that, they're just whiny cunts.

[Crusty Juggler]

Straight white males (at least the ones with an inferiority complex) play the same identity politics game casting themselves as the oppressed--because they have to listen to gay people talk

In defense of straight white males you are pretty tedious.

[esteve7]

And both those can't be wrong?

[damikesc]

You're being somewhat facetious, but this is the reality. Straight white males (at least the ones with an inferiority complex) play the same identity politics game casting themselves as the oppressed--because they have to listen to gay people talk. Except they don't have to do that, they're just whiny cunts.

Bakers and florists say "Yo, sup?"

Straight white males have, for years, been dealing with being labeled as the most evil group in recorded history. Fuck you on that shit and we're going to speak up now.

[CE]

That day happened a long time ago.

[Radioactive]

my fake penis is bigger than your fake penis?

[Longtobefree]

Sadly, there are only 21 more letters to add the the growing -isms that are 'oppressed'.

[mpercy]

LGBTQ is so old...

"LGBTQQIP2SAA: Shorthand for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, pansexual, 2-spirited, asexual, and allies. This is the proper acronym for the queer community."

Then of course, you have the racial and religious intersectionality leading to combinatoric excess of "identities". Which bloc does a gay transgender black man join?

[colorblindkid]

Much like "people of color", as if Chinese, Africans, and Native Americans have anything in common and belong in one non-white group.

[Juice]

The idea that Columbus freed natives from savagery is laughable when you learn of the savagery that he inflicted on them.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

I've no doubt. But Whataboutism was always going to be the high bar here anyway, so...

[Juice]

Is it really whataboutism to point out that the video is inaccurate to depict Columbus as saving natives from savagery? He did not.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

What? I meant that the best the video could hope to prove is that Columbus was *only as bad* as the Natives he genocide-ed. Regardless of whether they thought they could actually reverse it and cast him as the good guy, which may have been their goal but was never going to happen.

[Juice]

Ah. I misunderstood then.

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

Wait, does this mean the duel is cancelled?

{sadly puts away engraved caplock duelling pistols}

I guess tonight is another "Netflix and Cheez-its" night after all...

[DarrenM]

I suppose it depends on how you define "savagery".

[Juice]

Chopping off body parts as punishment is an example.

[DenverJ]

Except that he didn't treat them all that bad at all. It used to be that Columbus day was criticized because after Columbus "discovered" America, all these other people did bad things, and his voyages started it all.
But that was waaaaay too hard to fit into a chant or put on a bumper sticker, so it became easier to just say Columbus was a bad man who treated the natives savagely.

[DenverJ]

Oh Columbus. Nevermind

[colorblindkid]

It is debatable. While some of his crew and other explorers were undeniably brutal, there's quite a bit of evidence that Columbus did not approve and tried to prevent a lot of it.

[Lily Bulero]

"insulting as a "bunch of opera singers" and worse."

How can it get any worse than calling Italians "opera singers," of all things? (shudder)

/sarc

[Bra Ket]

Singing mafioso?

[CE]

Shouldn't Spain get the credit (or blame) for Columbus instead of Italy anyway? Italy wouldn't fund the voyage.

[Longtobefree]

Please refrain from citing facts; this is an internet comment section.
Thank you.

[Lily Bulero]

"insulting as a "bunch of opera singers" and worse."

How can it get any worse than calling Italians "opera singers," of all things? (shudder)

/sarc

[BestUsedCarSales]

The true face of Italy is a bunch of chain-smoking, cured meat eating, unemployed loverboys.

[Rufus The Monocled]

http://bit.ly/2qSzNZ5

Biggest smokers per capita.

[Crusty Juggler]

A bunch of espresso-breathed mamas boys. .

[Crusty Juggler]

Yeah, breathed.

[Crusty Juggler]

Lol snowflakes.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I don't want to be too edgy, but I also bet they are cucks.

[Crusty Juggler]

Snowflakes and cucks all the way down.

[CE]

Greenies should laud Columbus though.
He crossed 2100 miles of pre-warming oceans using clean wind energy, in 3 Spanish galleons.
That's over 700 miles per galleon!

[DenverJ]

Bah dum

[DenverJ]

Bah dum

[Radioactive]

but what was the CAFE?

[Longtobefree]

Dumping raw sewage and food waste (including offal) into the ocean all the way.
Oh, well.

[I'm Not Sure]

"there's a reason why a record-high percentage of us want a major third party to emerge"

Just leaving people alone to run their own lives is out of the question, then?

[CE]

Whatever the issue is today, Reason finds it proof that everyone wants a third party that is libertarian, despite 45 years of evidence to the contrary.

[DarrenM]

The way our system is set up, there will always be only two parties. The Whigs/Republicans were an exception at an exceptional time that is unlikely to be repeated any time soon.

[Lily Bulero]

The whole thing with Euro-Americans vs. "Native Americans" is truly an example of "atrocities on both sides" - and I hope it doesn't make me a squish to point this out.

[BestUsedCarSales]

The biggest thing is it's a story of different peoples clashing, same as any other throughout history. The "Native Americans" get some strange special distinction for some reason, but they were just people. And our cultures met at a time when interacting cultures often meant war.

[Tony]

It's just a little genocide. Boys will be boys.

[Juice]

Celts will be Celts. Well, not much anymore.

[Philadelphia Collins]

But enough about Planned Parenthood.

[esteve7]

Girls won't be girls

/abortion

[Liberty =><= Equality]

Most of the native deaths were from disease, which you can hardly blame the Europeans for.

[Radioactive]

but BLANKETS!!!!

[Mickey Rat]

Which would have happened regardless of how peaceful contact was without modern medical technology.

[colorblindkid]

But most of it wasn't a deliberate genocide. 95% of Native Americans died from smallpox, and that was entirely accidental, and inevitable. There is only one known incident where smallpox was probably used as a weapon, and it was centuries after most had already died. Most Native Americans died of smallpox without ever even seeing a white person. There were smaller localized incidents that were arguably genocide, but it is irresponsible and just wrong to describe the entire thing as a genocide.

The moment there was any contact between the Old World and the New World, the Native Americans were doomed. The smallpox vaccine wasn't invented for centuries later, and it and the medical revolution arguably only occurred due to the events that unfolded after discovery of the New World

[Azathoth!!]

It's just a little genocide

Yes, Tony, that's all it was. There was a time when 'it's just a little genocide' was commonplace--when meeting new people and cultures often meant fighting them for land or resources. Europeans were not alone in doing this--when Europeans first got to these shores various MesoAmerican civilizations were trying to have a little genocide themselves--the Great Wall is a 'just a little genocide' deterrent.

But now we've decided that it's wrong. Know why?

Because Europeans decided it was. Not when they were on the receiving end--everyone on the receiving end thinks it's wrong until they get the upper hand. Europeans decided it was wrong when they were in the position of taking whatever they wanted from whoever they wanted.

People have forgotten that.

[AndyWingall]

I forgot it because it's not true. The real reason the special european darlings ended slavery on their continent was because they didn't want a bunch of darkies running around. It was fine as long as it remained in their colonies 5,000 miles away. The few times they did try to ban colonial slavery was to teach colonists a lesson--they saw the slaves as much as a commodity as anyone else and used them like you would in an embargo or trade war. Precious europe.... I think the first time anyone ever realized people needed to learn to get along was in the US with an onslaught of massive immigration and the bubbling over melting pot. We did a fantastic job too, until the communist propaganda machine took over human thinking and even during Obama's the black militant uprising was something even the dystopian science fiction writers from 100 years ago failed to imagine. They underestimated how easily people could be brainwashed.

[Azathoth!!]

Ah--you know the "real" reason--not the one backed up by mountains of evidence. How foolish of me to try to get one past you.

[AndyWingall]

apparently "just a little genocide" in europe is ubercool, if it actually took place at all: World History 101

[Johnimo]

BestUsedCarSales has it perfectly stated. And, yes Tony, boys will be boys ? and native Americans were merciless towards other tribes, long before the whites arrived. The Comanche and Kiowa Indians, for instance, raided Mexican settlements long before they interacted with the English settlers in the US. Their depredations on Navajo and Apache tribes have been well documented. They were protecting their territory, and they were pretty damned violent about doing so.

[damikesc]

The biggest thing is it's a story of different peoples clashing, same as any other throughout history. The "Native Americans" get some strange special distinction for some reason, but they were just people. And our cultures met at a time when interacting cultures often meant war.

That is a part of a growing issue. Whites are the only groups only described by their faults. Other groups do not get that.

Were blacks enslaved by whites? Also, they were enslaved by other blacks. In Africa, they STILL are enslaved by other blacks. Yet enslaving blacks is a "white" thing. Hell, Brazil got a shit ton more slaves imported than the colonies ever did, but you don't see bitching about Brazil's racist past.

Nobody wants to look at the faults for the "oppressed minorities" (who, mind you, oppressed others at points in history). Only white folks get that treatment.

[vek]

And as whites shrink as a percentage of the population and that situation becomes more and more ridiculous, we're starting to get pissed. As somebody who grew up in a majority minority city in California as a kid, I WAS THE ONE who people were being racist against! Which I why I won't stand for any of this white bashing shit. I basically never has. There's no reason to get mean about it, but I just use facts and logic. Usually people just get all retarded proggy emotional and shut down, or blank stares, but sometimes it sinks in.

I've said it before, but if minorities don't stop it with this shit then I suspect white people will say "Fuck it, they already think we're all Hitler anyway. We're deporting all these fucks out of our country, and if they don't like it we'll shoot them instead."

Which is why I hope the chill the fuck out and it doesn't come to that. But we'll see...

[colorblindkid]

Exactly. There's this belief that white people are somehow more racist than everybody else. When white people are the minority, what are the chances the racism against them won't be even worse than racism by whites now? I'd say it's more likely things will get worse, simply by looking around the world today.

[vek]

Yup. I was hanging out with a friend from high school who was visiting town the other week. I think I shattered a lot of his world view. He was struggling to keep holding up his semi moderate, but proggie leaning beliefs in social justice BS. When I was explaining to him how all of these groups are being EXPLICITLY racialist/racist in ALL of their actions, and pointing out that that is them PROVING that it's not just whites who are racist, it was just twisting his mind. He was bending over backwards to try to dance around it. It's soooo obvious, and yet somehow people double think their way out of it.

When some group proposes policies that are bad for the country, but perceived to be good for THEIR people, that is racist. Whites have been so tamed by white guilt that I am positive if/when we are the minority we will be treated 10 times worse than we've treated any minority since the 1800s. Seeing how crazy minorities are getting WHILE WE'RE STILL THE MAJORITY shows just how little concern they will have when we're not.

I don't know if this double standard will be shot down while we're still a narrow majority or not, but if it happens when we're already a minority I think it will get nasty. Really nasty. I think secession is the best non violent answer. Cali for the progs, and the rest of the country for the sane(r) people.

[Lily Bulero]

Not just the European-on-Indian stuff, but the European vs. European and Indian vs. Indian stuff (with alliances between different groups of Europeans and Indians).

In short, yes, it darn well *is* complicated.

For one thing, the video could have mentioned how the Cherokees tried to become a settled agricultural people with all the trappings of civilization...which is why I suppose Georgia is filled with Cherokee cities to this day. /sarc

[Lily Bulero]

Don't forget the massive "race mixing" throughout the Americas, so it's not always easy to say if you have 100% oppressor blood or 100% oppressed-person blood.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I find it interesting that during early Spanish exploration/conquest/whatever they had a serious desertion problem. The lifestyle was more appealing then the relatively shit caste system many of the lower Spanish explorers lived under.

Another interesting thing is how much the different colonialists behaved. The Iberian's were fuuuuuuckers. Only reason Brazil got somewhat less of it from the Portuguese was the tribes there just retreated into the largest, least penetrable place in the world.

[SIV]

all the trappings of civilization.

Slave ownership? check!

[Lily Bulero]

As opposed to their foes, Georgia and Pres. Jackson? Sounds kind of like a draw to me.

[Azathoth!!]

Slave ownership? check!

They had that before the Spanish ever got there.

[IceTrey]

You have heard of the Trail of Tears right?

[Lily Bulero]

You need to turn on your sarcasm detector.

[Lily Bulero]

And I literally had a "/sarc" tag.

[Radioactive]

no, tell me of the "Trail of Tears" of which you speak...

[creech]

"a record-high percentage of us want a major third party to emerge"
Listen much to Michael Smerconish? Really, though, the devil would be in the details, wouldn't it? I'm not convinced that any new major third party would be any more acceptable to libertarians than the two old parties are.

[DarrenM]

It wouldn't. Over time, it would evolve (or devolve) into an image of one of the existing parties and probably pretty quickly, assuming it survived at all with any kind of political power.

[vek]

If our system were designed to allow room for a 3rd (or 4th or 5th) party there could be a fairly even 3 way split, but it's not. In Europe they have the extremist parties who get their few members in parliament or whatever, then the couple biggies. We could have that too, but our system just doesn't allow for it.

I think a center right party that was a little more into sticking to its principles would do well. Fiscally conservative, but socially liberal as good ol' Gay Jay would call it. But it ain't happening anytime soon.

[Rufus The Monocled]

I'm starting to get the feeling FDR really did impose curfews and interned some Italians out of spite and hate for the opera.

Anyway.

As a proud member of the Italian tribe here's my middle finger FDR.

[Lily Bulero]

"What? I was enjoying the opera, why did you jab me in the ribs with your elbow? Snoring? I was snoring in *appreciation!*"

[SIV]

Columbus was a great guy, as were all of the Italian navigators. God bless Western Civilization!

[SIV]

We should celebrate a DeSoto Day and a Coronado Day too. Western Civ FTW!

[Tony]

It's bad form to throw a party for yourself.

[CE]

I'm not Spanish or Italian. Can we have a Viking Conquest Day, per chance?

[Crusty Juggler]

Viking Conquest Day happened when Ragnar had a threesome with Lagertha And Aslaug. That was peak Viking.

[SIV]

The Vikings were New World losers. There only exploit was sailing timber back to Greenland. They routinely got their ass handed to them too...by Skraelings!

[DarrenM]

Who cares about form? It's all about an excuse to get drunk.

[Number 7]

why not Amerigo Vespucci since the fucking place is named after him?

[Tony]

Columbus Day is dumb therefore we need a third party?

I am sleep deprived so maybe I'm missing the connection. But by all means, form your third party so Democrats win everything. Er I mean it's a totally viable idea even in a country with a built-in duopoly and winner-take-all elections. Go libertarians go!

[Lily Bulero]

Columbus vs. Captain Kirk

[Fist of Etiquette]

I won't even dignify this with a response.

[Get To Da Chippah]

If no European explorers/settlers had come to the western hemisphere, do you think any of the indigenous people would have invented the wheel by now?

[Tony]

If Mexican explorers showed up on your lawn and killed your family and took your house, would you be cool with that, or do ends justify genocide?

I'm not saying this is an easy historical issue in reality, but this is supposed to be a place where people have relatively firm principles about these issues.

[Get To Da Chippah]

I'm not justifying the killings, just wondering how good you think the indigenous people would have it if the white devils never showed up. One of the tribes, a rather powerful one, loved to dedicate temples by ripping the hearts out of thousands of people. How earnestly do you think that culture should be celebrated?

[Tony]

Do you have any idea what Columbus himself personally did with his own hands to the natives he encountered? I like technology too but let's not pretend Europeans were angels.

[esteve7]

Who is doing this?

[BestUsedCarSales]

Quite a few of them actually. Bloodletting as a form of religious worship was apparently common in many of the Mesoamerican nations/tribes, and is believed to have originated in the Olmec.

[SIV]

"The Olmecs were Black"

[KBeckman]

*cough* Inquisition *cough*

[esteve7]

The Europeans were fucking brutal, just like the rest of the world for most of human history.

There's this image of happy Indians singing kumbayah as one big happy family then the evil white people showed up and ruined everything. Nice narrative but it's ridiculous. Be honest with yourself

[Tony]

Nobody but children from the 1950s believes that though. There's no need to celebrate or idolize anyone. What about a dispassionate studious approach?

[Philadelphia Collins]

Ok. Columbus led to the settling of a continent which led to the most advanced civilization ever.

[Tony]

And one of the world's great genocides.

[IceTrey]

Most of that was by disease which no one knew the cause to back then.

[Radioactive]

yo injuns...we won, you lost...get over it....

[esteve7]

My American Indian history professor in college and Howard Zinn the Marxist who wrote the damn book disagrees with you

[Lily Bulero]

This Howard Zinn guy sounds like a right-wing Klansperson.

[Radioactive]

no fucking doubt...anything that doesn't fit the narrative...

[DarrenM]

You don't build an empire by being nice. IMO, just the existence of an empire indicates brutal policies.

[Get To Da Chippah]

The Europeans were fucking brutal, just like the rest of the world for most of human history.

This. If Columbus had made it to the Americas on hollowed out canoes and were met by Aztecs with a technological advantage in war, I'm pretty sure the Aztecs wouldn't have hesitated to put the white men in the line with the other human sacrifices. Tony and his ilk only romanticize the losers to promote white guilt centuries later.

[vek]

Totally. This is always my ultimate argument about colonialism. First off, other races DID go out and conquer anyone and everyone they could, often building vast empires. Just like Europeans. If the Aztecs had had the industrial revolution instead of Europe, they would have went out and brutally conquered and subjugated Europe, Africa, and Asia themselves.

There is no moral high ground to be had on that issue. We just happened to be the first to break through some important technological barriers. If history had played out only slightly differently it could have been the Arabs or various Asian cultures easily. Nobody else was even on the edge of pulling it off, but the Ottomans or Chinese or whoever definitely were right on the edge.

Frankly, as someone who is mostly white I wish it had been the Asians or whoever. Then currently living whites such as myself wouldn't be getting shit on so hard for stuff I didn't have anything to do with.

[IceTrey]

Europe had the Romans and Huns and Mongols etc. The Europeans just did here what they had been doing there for 5,000 years.

[Johnimo]

Tony's still having trouble with the wheel question. How about metal tools? Would they have them yet, or would they still be in the stone age?

[damikesc]

If Mexican explorers showed up on your lawn and killed your family and took your house, would you be cool with that, or do ends justify genocide?

I'm not saying this is an easy historical issue in reality, but this is supposed to be a place where people have relatively firm principles about these issues.

What about those people those Mexicans slaughtered to get their land initially?

That always seems to be ignored.

And the reality that knowledge of disease transmission was sketchy back in those days, so the odds of an intentional pandemic running wild is highly unlikely.

[Radioactive]

yep pretty much...minimal tool using civilization vs somewhat more developed tool using civilization, you pick the winner!

[I can't even]

Unlike Nick, you will never be invited to the good parties.

[I can't even]

Hey! Now you'll never get invited to the cool parties like Nick and Tony needs a tampon.

[BestUsedCarSales]

It's interesting, so as far back as the Olmec (approximately the same time as Rome in Europe) there is evidence of wheel like tools in toys and smaller toys. The last thing I read posited that it never became major use in transportation of goods in the Americas due to the lack of good pack animal to pull carts and things like that. Closest domesticatable animal to that was the Llama which didn't come far out of the Andes. It's interesting how much climate, flora, and fauna seemed to play in history.

It's like how China just happened to have basically a mountain of Porcelain, which led to their early usage of ceramics and such.

[BestUsedCarSales]

"here is evidence of wheel like tools in toys and smaller toys"

*Wheel like objects in toys and smaller tools.

[Lily Bulero]

Olmec ya sweat

Shaking that Aztec

[Ornithorhynchus]

The Olmecs also discovered rubber. If they'd only had a proper draught animal to pull the vehicles, they would've not only invented wheels, but actual tires.

[vek]

Yeah, the no beasts of burden thing is interesting. There was an interesting book (I didn't read) and documentary that went into that, and other similar/related stuff around the world. Guns, Germs, And Steel I believe.

That said, was the buffalo really untrainable? Or the llama? I bet wild cow ancestors weren't much better, but in Eurasia they bred them to suit their needs. Hard to know for sure, but the fact that they didn't have one fall in their lap, or breed, a beast of burden certainly fucked them good. Whether that alone would have had them landing men on the moon by the 60s on their own is another question entirely though...

[Azathoth!!]

Both buffalo and llama are trainable--nearly any animal is if you keep it captive and breed for the traits you want long enough.

The things we call 'cows' were bred from a much more intelligent and independent animal long ago--and the 'indigenous' had access to similar animals.

Deer, moose, bison, llamas--all are proto-livestock, proto-beasts of burden..

[vek]

Yeah, well I know any animal is malleable to a point. I mean they did domesticate llamas. But there might be inherent limits built i too. I mean breeding a wolf to ride like a horse would be tough, ya now? It always seemed to me buffalo and llamas could have been "good enough" starting animals, but since I don't know a lot about animal husbandry/traits I wouldn't say for sure based off of my own knowledge. The fact that they had domesticated llamas though means perhaps in time some enterprising people would have bred the rideable llama! But that is in alternate universe 3748b I guess!

[Azathoth!!]

If no European explorers/settlers had come to the western hemisphere, do you think any of the indigenous people would have invented the wheel by now?

I don't think you're expressing the enormity of this correctly.

They DID discover the wheel.

They abandoned it as useless.

Let that percolate in.

[vek]

The not using wheels thing always really got me... I mean, even pulling a cart with people is a huge step in the right direction even with no animals!

[widget]

The City of LA, followed shortly thereafter by the County of LA, both just renamed Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples' (sp?) Day. This is not just a college campus phenomenon at lily white safety schools.

[Unlabelable MJGreen]

Oh, Jesus. It's hopeless. It's all hopeless.

[Longtobefree]

Actually, with Jesus, there is more than hope.

[Lily Bulero]

New Yorkers will teach those Southerners how to have a civil public debate about historical commemorations

[Lily Bulero]

"Comedy" writer cries sexism when a man (a MAN) corrects her nonsense

[BestUsedCarSales]

Man, that page is fucked up for me.

[widget]

Jimmy Kimmel cut his teeth playing an in-the-know fool in Ben Stein's Money and as the less obnoxious host to Adam Carolla in The Man Show. He black-faced Karl Malone as an idiot.

This is not widely known?

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Yup.

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Yup.

[Fist of Etiquette]

This whole thing is stupid. His name doesn't even end in a vowel. Plus, one of them played one of the other in that commercial about littering and no one cared. Literally. Those were simpler times.

[widget]

Parents: Domenico Colombo (Father) ? Susanna Fontanarossa (Mother)

See, I can look than up now and sound smart. I had no idea until 5 minutes ago.

[Fist of Etiquette]

That just means his parents were eye-talian. (Very much so, by those names.) But Christopher Columbus? They probably called him Topher. I mean, really.

[Fist of Etiquette]

In fact, this comment marks the first time on this whole page where his first name is mentioned. Talk about your whitewash.

[Mark P]

Columbus Day should not be a racial holiday that honors Italian Americans or Native Americans--it honors the discovering of America by Columbus, an individual explorer--not a partisan agent for a particular ethnic group. Those that bash Columbus say that he didn't discover America (the native Americans were here already); but this is a straw man argument as NO ONE believes that Columbus was the first man to set foot in America. Columbus brought disparate continents unaware of each other's existence into a single world and gave a global perspective to all. All this racial bickering is beneath contempt: it is based on Marxist materialism and Hitlerian views on race, which state that the material genetics determine an individual's thought. This is a boatload of crap as environmental factors are the most important factor determining one's belief system, the free will of an individual also being an important factor in determining their his or her own course of action.

[Leo Kovalensky]

*Winning comment

[SIV]

Every European country at the dawn of New World exploration relied on the skill and/or knowledge of Italian navigators, although the Portugees were no slouches either.

[Longtobefree]

Next thing, you will be pointing out that it was a purely commercial venture intended for profit.

[vek]

I don't think ones genes make them a Democrat or a Republican or a Nazi or whatever, but in the real world there is a lot of culture carried forward through generations. Especially with a situation like today where everything is being all stirred up to the point of stupidity via identity politics and such. So yes, group dynamics matter in the real world.

If they want to fight about Columbus Day I will fight their stupid right back. As someone who is a bit Indian on my dads side, and Mexican on my moms, but mostly white, this shit is just too dumb to tolerate. I will stop caring about identities when everybody else does, until then you have to at least acknowledge the reality that race, and culture, and these things do matter to people.

They matter to me. I think western culture is objectively better in almost (not all) ways than other cultures on earth. I mean we invented almost all the good toys, we invented the very philosophical concepts that are the height of thinking. I'm proud of that, and while I don't feel that I need to force anybody else to worship any of it if they don't want to, I AM peeved when these other groups are actively trying to piss all over the greatest achievements in the history of mankind.

[NoVaNick]

Fuck Columbus-We should rightly be celebrating LEIF ERIKSON day! He got here some 400 years before and as far as we know, did not ethnically cleanse anyone even though the vikings were bad asses. He was very Aryan though, so of course the SJWs will hate him.

Note-my dad was Greek and was convinced Columbus was Greek. My mom was half-Jew and was sure he was Jewish. I enjoy the day off from work and could really care less.

[Rich]

How about we both celebrate and bemoan the arrival of the first human in "the new world" (whatever *that* means)?

We could call it "Og, Daughter of Fire Day".

[Johnimo]

NoVaNick, you get the day's ? no, make that the year's ? best comment award. Can't we rename the damned thing "Geronimo Day"? Either way, I'll be going to Neptune's Brewery in Deadrock for one of their excellent Chocolate Porters. G E R O N I M O ! ! !

[Kllxyzn]

He also didn't do a damned thing while he was here, and left with his tail between his legs.

Celebrating a loser Viking? Pass.

[vek]

Yeah, that part always got me a bit bummed out. They really should have got word back to Scandinavia that they had found some sweet new land to conquer better.

[colorblindkid]

Actually, there is some pretty convincing archaeological evidence that there were battles between the Viking and the Natives they encountered. If they had guns, I'm pretty sure they would have massacred a lot more. It was kind of their thing.

[vek]

A bit. The sagas say they had some fights. I try to keep up on any new discoveries on this subject (and a lot of others, I'm fascinated by ancient history and pre-history) and they still haven't found any terribly huge settlements. IIRC off the top of my head they have confirmed at least a couple separate settlements, none of which were especially huge, BUT some seemed to have been active for perhaps a couple decades. So it wasn't full bore colonization, but it wasn't just popping over for a weekend stay either.

It was said that there were natives on the eastern coast of Canada with lighter than usual skin and red hair. People later attributed this to post Columbus interbreeding, despite that these tales came from before that was likely. Running DNA analysis now would be pointless as there has been a lot of interbreeding... BUT if they found pre Columbian bones and did DNA testing on them, it would be interesting to see if they really were part Scandinavian.

I think some of the most interesting historical research going on today is studying the DNA found in various people around the world. It has been seriously rewriting a lot of accepted history. They've found Australian Aborigine DNA in Amazonian tribes now, FINALLY. Old bones in South America always looked like the structure of Aborigines, but the DNA is actual hard proof. Very cool.

[Sevo]

Somebody here recommended "The Comanche Empire" ( Good read for those who presume the arriving Euros were the bad guys.

I only read the backs of cereal boxes, and then only when I'm cramming for finals. Can I get a 1 or 2 sentence synopsis?

[Longtobefree]

Where do you go to school? Can you provide a link to the registrar?

[Telcontar the Wanderer]

{hands Longtobefree a dead beetle from the backyard}

[JunkScienceIsJunk]

The natives had a bad immigration policy.

[vek]

LOL

It's true! Initially a lot of them gladly invited the newcomers in because they thought they would be HELPFUL for various reasons. Trade, military alliances against enemies. But once it flipped and they were the minority in their own region they found out the hard way that being demographically replaced is a bitch and a half!

[buybuydandavis]

The only way to win at this game is not to play it.

"I don't play. The country goes to hell, but I still get invited to the right cocktail parties"

One way ceasefire is suicide

[Ama-Gi Anarchist]

So, no more Columbus Day? I can get behind that if we rename October 9th "Che Guevara was riddled with bullets Day!" instead.

[Longtobefree]

Since his venture was commercial, intended for profit (loot), and the actual holiday has been hijacked as another reason for bogus 'sale' prices, I think it reasonable to leave the name the same. It is a simple matter of the number letters required in the ads, both on line and in print.

"Columbus day sale!!"
"Indigenous people's day sale!!"

Which has the better marketing flair?

[AndyWingall]

My father is from Italy, my real surname is Italian. I was at work one day when a black coworker asked me if I was excited about my special day. I didn't know what she was talking about. She had to explain to me that Columbus Day is a big Italian American celebration with parades and cannoli. I never recalled any of that growing up. I'm not the sensitive kind so I had no need to find my safe space from my coworker's unintended microaggression. But the following year I asked for Columbus Day off so that I could celebrate with my peoples, and I find that I do enjoy the parades and food. If anyone wishes to take that away from me and my peoples, you'll have to go about it the hard way.

[Tony]

As an Irishman I could take or leave St. Patrick's Day. I'm not offended that everyone thinks we're angry leprechauns, I'm offended by how long it takes to get a beer on that day.

[MJBinAL]

The "Indigenous Peoples" WERE violent,bloodthirsty barbarians.
The guys with Columbus WERE violent, bloodthirsty thugs.

The difference is that the society Columbus came from was progressing in ideas, science, and technology and the "indigenous people" were not.

No moral superiority there, but in term of advancing human society Columbus' came from the future and the indigenous people came from the past.

Indigenous people mostly without written languages were at a societal dead end with our without Columbus.

[Tony]

They persisted a whole lot longer that way than technological Europeans have. You are imposing values and basically saying the genocide was good for them.

[vek]

I'm part Indian on my dads side, and Mexican on my moms. I have zero problem with the Americas being overrun. I just read an article where a Hispanic politician said (not an exact quote) "I don't have a problem with Columbus. His trip ultimately brought two cultures together which created a third new culture."

That's kind of how I think of it. A huge percentage of Americans have several percent Native blood in them. If all that DNA were pulled out and turned into full people it would probably be high single digits, which is a lot of people. In South America and Mexico it is obviously WAY higher. Most of the natives that outright died died because of disease, the rest got worked into the mix.

It's no different than they were doing to each other all the time. It's not different than the Arabs overunning parts of North Africa and Europe and replacing/interbreeding there. It's just normal old human history in action. If the Indians had the guns and showed up in a Europe with bows and arrows they would have gladly done the same.

AND FINALLY, it happened. It was shitty in some ways, but positive in others. But it happened. Can't change it, so might as well look at the bright side. I wouldn't exist if it hadn't happened, so I'm pretty okay with it.

[vek]

And I do thoroughly believe that the Americas are far wealthier and more advanced because Europeans moved here. Especially in South America where many countries are 50/50 or higher native blood, that's a good thing for the native descendants. At best if the Europeans had showed up and just left, or just traded or whatever, south America might be as advanced as Africa or something now. North America maybe not even that together. So again, look at the bright side.

[Brandybuck]

It's Columbus Day. Nothing more, nothing less. Just some dude who was not good, not evil, merely not perfect. But he did manage to make a significant mark on history. Yeah, he was a culturalist puke, but everyone was a culturalist puke back then. Singling him out is for special abuse is rather lame, as the real evils perpetrated against the indians happened after he was dead. The Spanish Conquistadors did far far worse. The U.S. Army did far far worse. George Fapping Washington did far far worse.

Columbus is just a hollow symbol to the left, someone they can point to while still continuing their tired White Man's Burden racism. Are any of these people calling for an end to the BIA and the reservation system? Any of them? Any?

[Mark P]

1. During Columbus's time, most Europeans thought the world was flat. Even Erikson's earlier explorations didn't do much to convince them that the world was round and that other continents did in fact exist. Columbus convinced them, and we finally looked at the world globally.
2. Hundreds of years ago, groups attacked each other; and the dispute was over land and resources--possibly they were threatened by the other group. Imputing modern identity politics to these people is absurd.
3. These racial identity games are childish. Whether or not one considers Columbus a man of achievement or man of oppression, it is absurd to give positive racial points to Italians if he was good and negative racial points to Italians if he was bad. The achievements and the evils of others are not transferrable--not even from a parent to a child.
4. The Nazis popularized the importance of racial identity, claiming the Aryan race was superior, and the Jewish race was inferior and needed to be exterminated. We are not challenging the essence of the Nazi view on racial determination if we simply say another race is superior and another race is inferior. We need to entirely reject the falsehood of racial determination, and judge people on the content of their character.

[Hank Phillips]

National Socialists claimed jews were born selfish, and pushed genocide as artificial selection by eugenics to make the world safe for Christian altruism. Their books, laws and speeches make this abundantly clear.

[HenryC]

Some of the American Indian cultures truly were savage. Some were not. I do not miss the Aztec civilization at all, and neither should anyone else.The indigenous people, especially the Aztecs held far more slaves than the whites did. I could see a Sitting Bull day, or a Chief Joseph day, but Indigenous peoples day is a joke and a bad one. Columbus was historically important, good or bad he deserves recognition. Groups have to make their mark by surviving and prospering.

[Hank Phillips]

LP spoiler votes have forced complacent political soft machines to change their platforms and repeal bad laws. Whether by influencing the courts, as when the US Suprema Corte copied the Libertarian abortion plank and called it Roe v. Wade, or at the state level, as hemp is relegalized after nearly a century of ku-klux Anslinger gunslingerism. WINNING is when your vote makes you better of. Losing is getting to watch a looter politician rob and murder you on teevee. It's a matter of learning some English.

[imo]

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