Lauren Southern Responds to Reason's Alt-Right Critique [Updated]

And it's not pretty.

Lauren Southern is correct that I misidentified her as "Laura Southern" in my August 31 video for Reason, "What the Alt-Right Gets Wrong." I regret the error.

Unfortunately, that isn't the only point she strives to make in her answer video, "Why Reason TV is VERY Unreasonable," which runs through the usual dishonest and flawed litany of alt-right complaints about too many immigrants, attacks on "elites," and misrepresentations of U.S. history and libertarian beliefs. Southern may identify sometimes as a "cultural libertarian" when she's not defending "identitarians," but it's clear she disagrees with the "Free Minds and Free Markets" philosophy that motivates Reason in all its iterations.

We know this because Southern seems puzzled that a libertarian of all people would disagree publicly with protesters chanting the Nazi slogan of "blood and soil" and "Jews will not replace us!" while carrying swastika flags. "I don't like Nazi LARPers [live-action role players] too much either" she says in her video, but continues that "individual liberty includes the right to hate whomever the hell you want." That's a classic misdirection, and sadly indicative of the sloppy argumentation and strawmanning that characterizes most of her reply. Of course my video says nothing about restricting people's speech rights (as long as they assemble peacefully, which the Charlottesville neo-Nazis did not do). My video engages the ideas promulgated by neo-Nazis and the alt-right, which are all about elaborating and defending repellent views about supposedly immutable racial and cultural characteristics, and the dumbest possible versions of Western chauvinism.

If the future of "the West" really rested upon the shoulders of dishonest, clownish performance artists such as Southern, civilization would indeed be as doomed as the most apocalyptic alt-right ideologue would have you believe. I first became aware of her after she posted a video of herself and members of "Generation Identity" attempting to block a boat carrying Doctors Without Borders staff whose mission was to help refugees get to shore without drowning or otherwise dying in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea. The video was meant to be a fundraising tool for the "Defend Europe" project, which entailed doing more of the same but with a bigger boat. Later one of the "Defend Europe" boats broke down in the middle of the sea, and one of the refugee rescue operations offered assistance, which was declined. Sad!*

By all means, check out her answer video in all its glory. My original piece is above.

CORRECTION: The original version of this paragraph stated that members of Generation Identity were shooting flares at Doctors Without Borders boats, and that Generation Identity's boat was rescued by the a refugee rescue vessel after breaking down. The text has been corrected based on Lauren Southern's claim that she wasn't "shooting" flares, and that the Generation Identity boat refused the assistance offered by the refugee rescue ship after it broke down.

Comments

[Huzzah]

Just fuck already.

[Crusty Juggler]

It's like Biggie and Tupac up in this piece.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

"Why Reason TV is VERY Unreasonable,"

Wait, how did I miss this opportunity to Drink!

[Microaggressor]

as long as they assemble peacefully, which the Charlottesville neo-Nazis did not do

Oh boy, here we go again.

[Rhywun]

Right? Can't we talk about immigrants or something?

[Unlabelable MJGreen]

The only winning move is not to play.

[Chipper Morning, Now #1]

But enough about your dating life.

[Half-Virtue, Half-Vice]

Zing!

[Charles Easterly]

Right? Can't we talk about immigrants dirty foreigners or something?

*Steals Rhywun's popcorn*

[lap83]

dirty foreigners
unlaundered exotic guests, please

[GILMORE?]

The Charlottesville "Good Guys"

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

If I use the logic of the Global Warming crowd on your graph @ 2:26, the trend is upward, and if I draw that trend upward forever into the fugure, immigrants will make up 742% of the American population by 2100.

[mad.casual]

I firmly support an open CO2 policy.

[Unlabelable MJGreen]

Lauren Southern is correct that I misidentified her as "Laura Southern" in my August 31 video for Reason, "What the Alt-Right Gets Wrong."

lol roasted

I first became aware of her after she posted a video of herself and members of "Generation Identity" shooting flares at boats carrying Doctors Without Borders staff

Well, we know one employee who doesn't read the comments.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I'm beginning to suspect libertarians have a PR problem.

[Microaggressor]

Zach saw the dislike bar and decided it was not enough.

[Charles Easterly]

You retract that statement - I have friends from Puerto Rico.

[Fist of Etiquette]

You tell them I'm not buying new flags just so they can get voting representation in Congress.

[Charles Easterly]

"Tell Fistus I said if he likes his flag he can keep it."

[MarkLastname]

What if we just merge them with Florida?

Puerto Rico says: "ew, no thanks."

[Ska]

I've been to Frenchie's, but I wouldn't call the people there my friends.

[GILMORE?]

Don't worry, Nick Sarwark is going to fix it.

oh, wait.

[Huzzah]

Zach, this isn't a good look for you.

[Crusty Juggler]

He shouldn't have an opinion?

[Huzzah]

He's required to descend to her level?

[Crusty Juggler]

He is not required to do anything - you did not specify what wasn't a good look, so I guessed.

And, why shouldn't he defend himself?

[Huzzah]

Where did I say he shouldn't defend himself?

"so I guessed"

You know what they say about assuming, it makes you look like a fucking idiot.

[Crusty Juggler]

I thought it just made an ass out of both you and me, but you learn something new everyday.

Thanks!

[Hail Rataxes]

Looks like Tulpa's butt hurts again.

[Zeb]

Tulpa's butt always hurts.

[MarkLastname]

When did you start referring to yourself in the third person?

[Half-Virtue, Half-Vice]

And, why shouldn't he defend himself?

Zach shot first. He was unprovoked. I read the original piece the day it dropped. It was a classless pot shot for luls.

[mad.casual]

Trump and the alt-right are a bunch of Pro-White, Pro-West Nationalist tards who's logic fails of its own inconsistencies... as proven by the precepts of a bunch of White Westerners.

It's like watching the episode of Mythbusters where they debunk the faking of the moon landing by firmly establishing that the only place that they could possibly achieve such an undertaking is NASA.

[buybuydandavis]

Is this Zach just plumping up his comments, or someone just mimicking him?

The style of content free sneering is spot on.

[lap83]

what has Irish been up to?

[Unlabelable MJGreen]

He's too big for us now.

[Crusty Juggler]

He was steering the boat.

[BearOdinson]

I am sorry. I have no love of the "alt-right". But Zach's video misses a number of things.
-Tiki torches don't equal violence (yes certainly the car driving guy who killed people does count).
-Equating Trump supporters with the Left in terms of the Heckler's veto? Telling a business you choose not to patronize them is the right of everyone, left or right. But, shouting down speakers, and actually committing violence is almost solely the purview of the Left.
-I also support free trade unequivocally. But the graph showing that "post-liberalization" countries with less trade restriction do better covers all of 14 years. And it might not hurt to show some context regarding how many workers or countries were covered by that study.
-So Milo is a provocateur. SO WHAT? What is this obsession with him?
-The clip of Richard Spencer at 4:48 says nothing about him supporting single payer. It is a complete non-sequitur.
-I am VERY suspicious of the clip from Tucker Carlson. I haven't verified it yet, but I have a feeling there is far more context in his comments that Zach lets on.
-Trump is under no requirement to let CNN enter the press briefings. Anymore than he has to let EVERYONE in. Of course, CNN is free to report that. And public information has to be shared publicly. But CNN is a CORPORATION. They have no more or fewer rights than any other corporation.

[Old Mexican's Speedos]

I am VERY suspicious of the clip from Tucker Carlson. I haven't verified it yet, but I have a feeling there is far more context in his comments that Zach lets on.

Oh, huh, no. It's accurate. Tucker is now a full-fledged Fascist.

[BearOdinson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8ZKZr5ZIIM

This is the entire Tucker Carlson commentary regarding Google. One can agree or disagree with his position. But, based on the context, I hardly think he can be accused of protectionism over this.

[buybuydandavis]

Being for regulations against monopoly power isn't protectionism.

You can argue against applying anti monopoly laws to technology companies, but given the government's manifest involvement and control if the internet, you at least have to guarantee that content neutral DNS service is available.

[Calidissident]

Tiki torches aren't violence, but the car attack was far from the only violence committed by the Nazis in Charlottesville.

Black guy beaten by a group of them.

http://tinyurl.com/ybx972b7

Guy fires a gun into a crowd

http://www.washingtontimes.com.....tesville-/

There's also Christopher Cantwell, who got arrested for macing people. And while I can't find the video, I also recall seeing a large group of them charging and attacking a group of peaceful counter protesters. That's not to say you couldn't find instances of violence initiated by antifa that weekend, but the Nazi violence was by no means purely in self-defense even if you set aside the car attack.

[mad.casual]

Tiki torches aren't violence, but the car attack was far from the only violence committed by the Nazis in Charlottesville.

The key dichotomy or contrast, IMO, is the broader social acceptance of this. It's not 100% plug-and-play or quid-pro-quo, but there's a distinct acceptance of deplorability on the one hand and a dismissal of it on the right. A disparity that, half a century ago, was used by the Klan to effect the terrors and atrocities they wrought.

Antifa burns cars and destroys storefronts in anti-Trump protests and the media reports on the civil rights violations inherent in the blanket arrests. They destroy Berkeley in protest of Milo, with open vocal and physical support by University admins and there's no mention of arrest or reprecussions. Meanwhile a single white supremacist commits a violent act, is arrested and will likely die in jail if not be put to death for his actions.

The fear or terror or oppression exerted by the KKK wasn't that they might kill anyone at any time (pretty much any postal employee, Berkeley mathematics professor, or distraught Gulf War veteran can do that or worse), it was that they could do so with impugnity, and not just the impugnity to kill undesirables, but to do so and then silence by force/intimidation anyone who spoke out against the violence.

That is to say, from a libertarian perspective, violence is one thing and state-sponsored or sanctioned violence is quite another.

[buybuydandavis]

It's only had when Whitey does it.

[mad.casual]

Guy fires a gun into a crowd

Again, not to condone the shooting or escalation, but he was pretty clearly shooting at the guy using a spray can and lighter on this guy.

Seems like a pretty clear case of two assaults with a deadly weapon. It's unclear if both of them will stand trial or not and/or that it won't just be a he-said/he-said situation.

[Shapu]

Wasn't the "charging and attacking a group of peaceful counter protestors" because the supposedly peaceful counter-protestors would not let the rally-goers actually get to the park? So the only way for them to get to the rally grounds was to actually go through the counter-protesters. I'm not sure preventing the exercise of someone else's civil rights counts as peaceful, or liberal.

And given all the beatings going on while the police stood and watched, most of which seems to have been instigated by the counter-protesters if the early reporting is anything to go by, I'm not sure you can so cavalierly apply blame as you seem to want to.

Anyway, you had two anti-liberal groups facing off, and an anti-liberal mayor and governor who wanted to shut down one of those anti-liberal voices they disagree with, and who used an anti-liberal mob to do so. For actual libertarians, it can be useful to ask who are the actual dangers to our liberties, the few white-identitarian jokes or the many more who want to shut down and economically destroy anyone they disagree with.

[Zeb]

You should have just kept calling her Laura Southern. That would have been funnier.

[ChipToBeSquare]

Still would

[Half-Virtue, Half-Vice]

Lauren Southern is correct that I misidentified her as "Laura Southern" in my August 31 video for Reason, "What the Alt-Right Gets Wrong." I regret the error.

Idk this kind of says it all -- it was a hamfisted attack, you didn't even bother to do any research -- just cosmo it up for cocktails, same thing that happens when ever they mention Milo. It's the flippant dismissal of the opponent that bothers me, I could get that at HuffPo, that's not why I come to Reason.

We are philosophers and libertarians, we ought to have the intellectual grit to engage the alt-right ideas; not run or dismiss out of turn like every other Team Blue publication.

[BearOdinson]

This is all I am saying.

[Scotticus Finch]

Well put. Something something Virginia Postrel...

[Tony]

The proper treatment of neo-nazi philosophy is flippant dismissal.

[Fuck You - Cut Spending]

It is also the proper treatment of you.

[Scotticus Finch]

Funny how that worked for the last few decades, isn't it?

[MarkLastname]

Curiously, though, Marxism still gets taken seriously, despite being at least as destructive.

[Half-Virtue, Half-Vice]

^Savage 10/10

[Tony]

Except it doesn't. Not by anyone except cousinfucking retards like you.

[Brother Kyfho]

Way to address the substance of the comment, Tony.

#Sad/Funny

[buybuydandavis]

we ought to have the intellectual grit to engage the alt-right ideas; not run or dismiss out of turn like every other Team Blue publication.

It's Reason's intellectual dishonesty and cowardice that recruited libertarians for Trump, and now recruits libertarians for the Alt-Right.

Progressivism Poisons Everything

[Alcibiades]

Seriously, this woman is just too annoying to watch or listen to.

[Tony]

Jeez somebody pass me a cosmo already.

[MarkLastname]

You expect anyone to believe you drink anything but PBR?

[GILMORE?]

this rebuttal of the rebuttal is dumber than the .... oh, heck it all.

Can't we just all agree they're both idiots?

[Azathoth!!]

Wow, Zach, hungry for another reaming?

The girl nailed you. Nailed you--and you have the temerity to act as of one iota of your cocktail fueled blather had even the tiniest hint of value? Hell--you were getting reamed here and on youtube for it BEFORE Lauren said a word.

You probably need to up your victim stats--get some whining in about the big, bad, right wingers so that you can secure your place as pivot man at those leftist circle jerks Reason can't seem to stop supporting anymore.

[Bacon-Magic glib reasonoid]

Oh snap

[Shapu]

Of course my video says nothing about restricting people's speech rights (as long as they assemble peacefully, which the Charlottesville neo-Nazis did not do).

Absent one automobile incident after the rally had been shut down the details of which are still unclear, where exactly did these neo-Nazis not peacefully assemble? As the ACLU tweets and all the early reporting (before the mainstream reporters got the narrative memory) presented, it was the so called anti-FA who initiated the violence, and the police that either stood aside, seemingly so the first-amendment loving VA gov could shut down the rally.

You don't have to like neo-Nazis to believe they deserve rights too, at least until they actually act to infringe upon the rights of others. Guess what? To the anti-FA, you are a neo-Nazi too. (That is if you're a real libertarian.)

[Shapu]

Just to be clear, I have no truck with identitarian movements of any stripe, and, and for reasons I'll comment on no further, I'd likely be in the first group of people sent to the gas chamber if actual Nazis ever came into power. However, I tend to be very suspicious of pile-ons and witch-hunts in general, because they are often the first step to circumscribing our civil rights. I would think this would be a reflexive libertarian position, but increasingly, it seems to be not the case.

Be very careful when someone tells you that you should believe something but doesn't or can't give you real reasons why or ignores any mitigating or contrary evidence. "But all right-thinking people would know such people are up to no good. You're a right-thinking person aren't you?"

Illiberal, and un-libertarian.

[Dano240]

In the early 30s, Antifa was founded by a Jew in Germany to counter protest those of Germany (mostly Berlin) that was tired of the Wiemar republic and the oppression of the war reparations from WWI and voting for change- even before Hitler's appointed position. The "Brown Shirts" were a response to the thugs that came out of the antifa's actions towards civilians attending those rallies and events- (eventually it became a tit for tat)-

The "alt-right" is precisely that- a reaction to the violent acts of antifa. At the beginning of this mess- "alt-right" people didn't organize rallies, or most may have not even attended campaign trails for DJT- But, all over fringe news sites, long before alt-right was mentioned, you could see violent acts towards just everyday normal Trump supporters, and voters. MSM never covered antifa counter protester's violence at these campaign rallies. Instead, they turned focus to the occasional radical moron (that usually turned up to be be Bernie bro) and tried blaming the increase in violence on Trump supporters.

[Dano240]

The moral of the story- (added now because there is a character limit) If antifa keeps it up- they will summon the very boogyman they claim to be fighting against. It's happened several times already in History- Nobody (besides the handful of mislead youth fresh out of liberal colleges) wants their Marxist, Leninist, Trotskyist, Maoist, Chavosit, anarchy communistic, Bolshevik, social justice totalitarian ideologies forced upon them. That's precisely what causes the growth of "Nazism" - because that's precisely how the epithet was created in the first place- to slander those that rejected the above mentioned bullshit. Many Germans of that era were just normal everyday people wanting to change the current status of a disgusting, broken society.

[Brother Kyfho]

The so-called anti-fascists are a synthetic construct of the Deep State. They exist for the very purpose of polarizing the country. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Problem, reaction, "solution". The dialectic of conflict arouses the extreme passions of the masses, the more violent, the more extreme the passion, allowing for the powerful to exercise control over the now much more easily led population.

The alt-right is a logical reaction to the consequences of democracy/majority rule when flooded with people that don't have western civ values. (Democracy, The God That Failed - Hans Hermann-Hoppe) They are operating, however, within a statist frame and don't realize that their enemies are not so constrained. The so-called anti-fascists are not, and are seizing the initiative and operating individually on their [completely wrong] beliefs.

Each mini-riot/demonstration moves the country that much closer to the imposition of martial law,and its attendant tyranny.

[buybuydandavis]

through the usual dishonest and flawed litany of alt-right complaints about too many immigrants, attacks on "elites," and misrepresentations of U.S. history and libertarian beliefs.

If the future of "the West" really rested upon the shoulders of dishonest, clownish performance artists such as Southern

You're the guy driving the clown car, buddy.

Reason yet again fails to argue the issues, and merely sneers.

Why don't you, Shikha, and all of Reason's Open Borders Uber Alles crew debate Victor Davis Hanson, Steyn, and Coulter on immigration? Milo? Southern?

Instead of just writing hit pieces on the Alt-Right, why not debate Vox Day?

Oh yeah, I know why: because you're intellectually dishonest cowards who know you would get your clocks cleaned.

[Brother Kyfho]

> as long as they assemble peacefully, which the Charlottesville neo-Nazis did not do)

Uhhh, yeah, they did. They were then attacked by the police, forced to walk through a crowd of so-called anti fascists, where they were physically attacked in numerous ways.