Gary Johnson

Penn Jillette Votes for Hillary Clinton! (In Contested Nevada, in Return for a Dozen Gary Johnson Votes in Democratic States)

"Vote swapping I am convinced is legal. Vote swapping I am convinced is moral. But I don't feel good about it," says the libertarian magician.

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Was it really only this July when magician and professional bullshit-detector Penn Jillette told Nick Gillespie that "I will be supporting Gary Johnson all the way"? Which itself came just two months after the libertarian hero moderated a Libertarian Party presidential debate?

Why, yes it was. Which makes the headline confession here downright shocking: Penn Jillette admits to voting for Hillary Clinton, "who I do not agree with on anything"!

And yet in typically disarming and transparent fashion, on his great "Sunday School" broadcast, Jillette explains his conflicted self: He lives in super-contested Nevada, had a bunch of friends prevail upon him that Clinton "is not as apt to blow us to kingdom come with nuclear weapons as Trump" while reminding him "I have personal experience with Trump and don't want him to be president," and furthermore he was able to convince "about 11 or 12 people" in safely blue states like Massachusetts, New York, and California to vote for Johnson, thus inching the party closer to that all-important 5 percent threshold. Still, he volunteers, "I felt pretty shitty. It was not a joyous day."

Watch the confessional here:

One of my favorite all-time political quotes is Jillette's, "I'm even uncomfortable telling people who to vote for," so I'm certainly not here to tell the man he's wrong, particularly after surviving that gambit already once before. But for those similarly agonizing over their vote Tuesday, here are three considerations I might add to the mix: 1) The presidential race is still not close for most voters; 2) Johnson's net presence on a ballot compared to his net absence is almost certainly a boon to Hillary Clinton, due to his Republican supporters outnumbering his Democratic ones 2.5 to 1; and 3) Here is a state-by-state breakdown of what various finishing percentages mean for Libertarian Party ballot access in various states.

Below, watch Gillespie's full interview with Jillette on Gary Johnson, Donald Trump, and losing a bucketload of weight:

Thanks to must-follow Eric Sturrock for the tip.

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272 responses to “Penn Jillette Votes for Hillary Clinton! (In Contested Nevada, in Return for a Dozen Gary Johnson Votes in Democratic States)

  1. Libertarian Moment!

    1. Perfect story to sum up Cucktarians

      Trades a vote that counts, that he knows likely will help propel the US Putin into the White House, for meaningless “get Libertarians on the ballot easier” votes.

      The Left owns the media. The schools. The federal bureaucracy.
      Hillary wins, she appoints a few more SC justices, and amnesties and imports her way to a permanent big government electoral majority.
      The Left then *also* owns the presidency, the SC, and the voting booths, with a criminal kleptocrat running the show.
      Hillary is *already* above the law, and she doesn’t hold *any* office right now.
      Who expects the law to come crashing down on her once she is President?

      Sounds like Russia to me, although I’m not sure Putin’s control is quite so thorough.

      But, hooray!, Libertarians will have easier ballot access in elections the Left will win to the end of time.

      This election is a referendum on the electorate – too stupid to be free?

      Umm, yeah, good chance.

      1. Hillary Clinton is the US Putin. That cannot be repeated enough. Also, unlike Hillary Clinton Putin wasn’t known for personal corruption when he was elected president for the first time.

        1. My last pay check was $9500 working 12 hours a week online. My sisters friend has been averaging 15k for months now and she works about 20 hours a week. I can’t believe how easy it was once I tried it out. This is what I do… http://www.Trends88.com

      2. the libertarian magician

        That word apparently means nothing.

        Fuck Penn Jillette. In the ass. With a broken bottle.

        Maybe Teller can make him disappear. He is a disgrace.

        1. Whereas you wishing supreme pain on someone’s asshole for a vote by a person you don’t know for a person and that certainly not have any affect on the outcome is super graceful.

          1. Adam,
            Jillette is obviously trying to influence the election and just because he does it ineffectively does not make his actions any less grievous when one consider his intent and desired outcome.

            Jillette’s vote for Hillary is a vote for a broken bottle in the ass of every unconnected and disconnected American in violation of the NAP. That is malice, mf’er. Some welcome the bottle and others just so stupid they are spreading their ass cheeks in gleeful anticipation. Politics is a blood sport. Man up, pussy. Even Obungler said you have to have some ass skin in the game.

            I stand with BigT. I appreciate Teller’s silence even more.

          2. I too stand with Big T.

    2. “2) Johnson’s net presence on a ballot compared to his net absence is almost certainly a boon to Hillary Clinton”

      Libertarians pivotal in ushering in the US big government One Party State.
      Hurrah Libertarians!

      Too Stupid to be Free

      1. “2) Johnson’s net presence on a ballot compared to his net absence is almost certainly a boon to Hillary Clinton”

        That remains to be seen. Trump does slightly better against Clinton in four-way polls than in two-way polls. Jill Stein’s numbers wouldn’t change much if Gary Johnson were not in the race. About 2/3 of Johnson’s support comes from independents, who tend overall to be “moderates,” and if Gary were not in the race it’s likely that more of their votes would go to Clinton than to Trump. About 1/10 of Gary’s support comes from Democrats, down from 1/3 previously, meaning that most Democrats that were supporting Johnson have already either returned to Hillary or defected to Trump.

        This leaves the 25% of Gary Johnson’s support that is coming from Republicans. I think this is due to the fact that Trump has less popularity and support among Republicans than Clinton does among Democrats. In this context, Gary Johnson’s presence in the race might actually be helping Trump by diverting many Republican votes that would otherwise have gone to Clinton.

        Bottom line: Johnson’s net presence on the ballot is not necessarily a boon to Hillary Clinton.

    3. Okay – Nick Sarwark – if Penn Jillette can bail out on the Libertarian Party candidate, I will too.

  2. There is no good excuse for voting for the Hillinator.

      1. Awesome! I forgot Penn n’ Teller were in that video!

    1. ‘There is no —- excuse for voting for the Hillinator.’

      Fixed.

    2. There’s no excuse for voting for either of them.

      1. Voting for Trump helps Hillary lose.

        1. True, but sadly, voting for Trump helps Trump win.

          1. True, but Hillary winning makes everyone sad except her cronies.

            Trump winning makes Hillary cronies sad, the media sad, RINOs sad. win – win – win

            1. Don’t think of it as a vote for Trump. Think of it as a vote against John Harwood’s smugness.

              1. Also, think about the exquisite agony that AmSoc, Tony, and PB will endure for the next four years.

  3. Peer pressure is a helluva drug.

  4. had a bunch of friends prevail upon him that Clinton”is not as apt to blow us to kingdom come with nuclear weapons as Trump”

    Gullible closet-prog.

    1. Apparently Jillette missed where Hildog wants to establish a no-fly zone where the Russians are flying military missions over Syria.

      Or maybe he thinks Putin will just buckle under.

      Uninformed A-hole.

      1. Being uninformed is the essence of progtardedness. That, and breathtaking cognitive dissonance, combined with smugness.

    2. Or “No such thing as Libya or Syria or Iran” So Hillary will be a safer bet? Despite history, which she has. Despite her support for the Iraq war. Despite her going after the accusers of her raping husband? I’d vote for Satan himself before I voted for the in-convicted felon that is Killary.

      1. I’m with you LV. What kind of idiots think Trump worse than Hillary. One has at least some inkling of what they’re voting for with Trump. Hillary is a complete mystery: She’s been on every side of every issue, and she admits that she has two positions, public and (semi) private, the latter being what she tells Wall Street behind closed doors?

        I will take a picture of my ballot to prove — and proudly display — that I voted for neither of these two assholes.

  5. Penn has become sort of unlistenable since he started becoming part of a cult. For such a strident atheist, he’s taken to a cult quite well. Sad because I used to have immense respect for him intellectually. Maybe this is an indictment on Gary Johnson, maybe scare tactics. Or perhaps just an indictment on Penn Jillette himself. Hard to say.

  6. Fat Penn wouldn’t have voted for her. Bring back fat Penn!

      1. Brain cancer would explain it all. Sad

  7. Goodbye, friend. I’ll miss you.

    1. Has Penn ever been a libertarian?

  8. No worse than those here voting for Trump.

    1. Actually, given his reasoning, it kind of is.

      1. No, not really. Neither is qualified to be president. Talking yourself into voting for either is equally insane.

        1. They’re both qualified to be president. One of the major candidates has a long history of actions demonstrating she is dangerously unsuitable. The other one has a long history of achieving money and fame by ceaseless self-promotion.

          1. SIV|11.6.16 @ 10:45PM|#
            “They’re both qualified to be president.”

            This from the idjit who thinks Trump is due a vote.

            1. A vote for Trump helps Hillary lose.

            2. As many as it takes to keep Hillary out. I would much prefer Rand Paul, but anything to stop the Evil One.

          2. While I hate both, voting for Trump makes slightly more sense to me (if you believe you have no other choice). The doublethink possible to vote for Hillary is mind-boggling.

            Take this email thing. Libs are trying to use this latest thing as an, “I told you so.” If you believe her that she didn’t know?even though Comey said she would have to know what classified email looks like?she’s unfit to be president because she can’t tell the difference between TS emails and non-TS emails.

            So either she knowingly did something wrong and lied about it?Comey admitted her statements were FALSE but they can’t prove intent?so she lied to the American people and is possibly a criminal. Or she is too inept to be able to handle TS documents. So which is it? Neither makes a person fit for office. Whether or not she’s telling the truth is pretty irrelevant. Ugh, it’s maddening. Being a Libertarian is exactly like being Cassandra.

          3. You have to admit that a Trump presidency would be a lot more entertaining to watch.

        2. Your blatant disregard for reality is alarming. Is there a family member we can contact for you or should we just order the cyber trace to protect you from yourself.

    2. I have it on good authority that you have a Trump yard sign in front of your trailer. Don’t deny it, I have a photo.

        1. You just gave John a boner. Well done, amigo, now we can watch him and SIV rubbing their sticks together.

            1. I’m sure you have a link to the video.

                1. You never disappoint. Or you always do, depending on POV.

            2. You wanted front-to-back twerking?

              1. You wanted front-to-back twerking?

                It really is the best technique for wiping.

        2. TEAM RED is supporting Hitlery, Egg McMuffin, GayJay or not voting this election. TEAM RED is NeverTrump.

    3. Arguably better, if he traded his one (meaningless overall) vote for dozen GJ votes, getting him closer to coveted 5%.

      He understands she’s poison, at least he got something out of it, and it’s not like he’s gone SJW or someshit, so I’m keeping my Bullshit! DVDs.

      1. Penn’s intent on casting that vote is to elect Hitlery. “Helping the LP” is just his rationalization.

        1. Weld-itarianism is a helluva drug.

    4. Jillette has conspired. I saw Stephen Hawking and Anderson Cooper hawking a smart pill. Go order yourself a bunch and take extra doses….to close the huge intellectual deficit that you obviously suffer from. To equate Trump and Hiliary betrays your reasoning skills as poor.

  9. I hope they reboot Penn and Teller: Bullshit! so he can do an episode on himself.

    1. He always said they wanted the last episode to be on the bullshit of Bullshit! but then they got abruptly cancelled about the time the Vatican episode got memory holed by somebody at Showtime.

  10. Hopefully he required them all to take ballot selfies as proof.

  11. I got tired of his comedy shtick a while ago, but it’s a shame that I now have to know that he’s a genuine asshole every time I see his stupid, shriveled face.

  12. Zero Hedge says the S&P 500 indicates that Trump has an 86.7% chance of winning.

    “Since 1928, there have been 22 Presidential Elections. In 14 of them, the S&P 500 climbed during the three months preceding election day. The incumbent President or party won in 12 of those 14 instances. However, in 7 of the 8 elections where the S&P 500 fell over that three month period, the incumbent party lost.

    . . .

    “this relationship occurs because the stock market reflects the economic outlook in the weeks leading up to the election. A rising stock market indicates an improving economy, which means rising confidence and increases the chances of the incumbent party’s re-election.

    . . .

    the S&P has fallen some 4.5% over the critical three month period, suggests that based on this indicator, Trump has a roughly 86% chance of winning the presidential election.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/…..g-election

    Technical analysis is interesting.

    . . . but then so is Santeria. Maybe they should hire a Cuban woman to kill a chicken and look at its entrails or something.

    1. I’d put more stock in that if the Republican convention hasn’t melted down into a complete freak show.

      1. Yeah, problem of induction.

        Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

    2. Maybe they should hire a Cuban woman to kill a chicken and look at its entrails or something

      SIV approves of this

    3. Maybe they should hire a Cuban woman to kill a chicken and look at its entrails or something.

      If sacred chickens won’t eat, maybe they are thirsty!

      *throws cage overboard*

    4. +1 Spirit Dinner

  13. Thanks to must-follow Eric Sturrock for the tip.

    A background photo of the Kingston-Rhinecliff Bridge? What the frick?

    1. You did see where he’s from, right?

  14. I bet Mark Wilson votes for Trump.

  15. Oh thank you for saving the world from nuclear war–by voting for Hillary fucking Clinton. Mister Jillette, you’re a real hero.

    And then having the bravery to discuss it at length in an interview!? What a profile in courage.

    Somebody get this man a pass to continue working in show business, pronto!

  16. Does that mean I should vote for Trump because I believe that Clinton is more likely to start a nuclear war!!

    Fuck you, Penn.

    1. Yes

      Do you want the children to die in a Hitlery Kkklinton-ignited nuclear holocaust? Think of the children, man

    1. Good girl. Makes me want to hop in the time machine and go back and throw a fuck in to 1970s Susan Sarandon.

      1. You mean you wouldn’t nail the 1988 Dull Durham version?

        1. Ha…Dull Durham…Bull!!!

        2. I’m thinking Rocky Horror- Pretty Baby-Atlantic City-The Hunger vintage.

          1. Can’t argue with you. Bull Durham was on the other night and she was still bangable.

            1. Only with a hammer.

          2. Odd. I figured SIV as more of a King of the Gypsies vintage, actually.

            1. The hot chick in that movie was jailbait. Not that they used to believe or enforce that much back in the ’70s.

              1. What? She was born in 1946 according to Teh Almighty Wikipaedia; KotG was released in 1978. Making her in her earliest thirties when it was released.

                Oh, you meant Brooke Shields….

                Only with shovel.

  17. It’s interesting how popular vote trading is these days. People really dislike the Electoral College a lot these days. Anyone feel they can link me to a discussion of it’s advantages and disadvantages?

    My guess is it helps give weight to smaller states, is the major pro-point. And I must admit that pure majority voting is not particularly appealing to me.

    1. Wrong site, go fuck yourself

      1. This from the idjit who thinks Trump is worth a vote.

      2. Christ, you are a fucking cunt.

        SIV, you may be the most disgusting individual I’ve ever had the displeasure to run across. You are positively vile.

        1. It’s a sock, idiot.

          I guess we ain’t goin’ trout fishin’.

          1. What exactly would I be sock puppeting for by asking a question about pros/cons of an issue?

            1. Paranoia it’s a helluva drug.

        2. On a site that includes Shreeek, Tony, Plopper, Sheldon Richman, Shikha Dalmia…

          Clutch them pearls, hit that fainting couch, and for god’s sake, make sure everybody sees you. It’d be a real shame to waste hysterical fart-smelling social signaling and not even get an atta-boy from your intellectual betters on Democratic Underground.

          1. Fuck off PM, you’re second.

            1. Btw, for what it’s worth, you are quite literally, inclusive of the trolls, the unequivocal single most ignorant person who posts here. From opposite ends of the spectrum, Tony and John both wipe the floor with you routinely on actual comprehension of political philosophy. But I’m not going to pretend to be disgusted by you. Partially because the fact that you are an abject idiot who doesn’t possess even the most sophomoric comprehension of the topics of which you engage in discussion is at once humorous and pitiable to such an extent that it’s very difficult to take you seriously. But mostly because grown adults are capable of entertaining ideas, even objectionable ones, without disgust or dismissal on their actual merits. The fact that you are too intellectually impotent to engage the ideas of anyone of any political stripe without descending into histrionics based on your pretended moral revulsion just further demonstrates those deficiencies and says a lot about where your debating tactics and political ideas come from.

              1. PM, from you, it’s not worth anything. You have the credibility of SIV, John and Tony. But I can completely understand why you’d believe they “wipe the floor with” me. It’s because you’re operating at the same level.

    2. Disadvantages:

      It gives unequal weight to our individual votes depending on what state we live in.
      Some states always vote a certain way, making your vote in that state irrelevant.
      It is winner take all, even if the other candidate wins 49% of the vote.

      Advantages:

      It’s what we do?

      1. “Advantages:
        It’s what we do?”

        It’s a sort of capacitor if you will; it removes spikes from the signal. Put another way, it is a damper on direct democracy, and we could use more of the same, so long as neither party goes out of its way to select a candidate who won’t stop digging the hole he’s in.
        And it would help if there were an independent press.
        Oh, well…

        1. At the very least, split the damn vote in tune with the actual votes. And not the bullshit way Maine and Nebraska do it, where it’s still winner take all, they just make it winner take all in individual districts. If someone gets 40% of the popular vote in a given state, they should get 40% of the electoral votes available.

          1. I really don’t have a structure at hand which would improve it. Pretty much just in favor of nearly any ‘republican’ (l/c) limitation on mob rule.
            In CA we have ‘open primaries’ which was sold to the public (mob) and ‘democratic’, and, boy, is it ever! There must be four or five Rs on some ballot or other in the state. We have mob rule.

            1. Same in WA. I had 2 Libertarian candidates on the entire ballot: GJ and for the AG. Disgusting! You can’t even indicate party affiliation when you register.

          2. States went away from this in the effort to make their state more “important”.

      2. advantages:

        1. Philosophical: It gives added weight to smaller states to keep them from being dominated by the big states (which was the primary reason for the distribution of electoral votes in the constitution originally).

        2. Modern real-life: It keeps the big-city voter-fraud political machines from dominating national politics by reducing their influence to their particular states

        1. The fraud comment is most interesting, several of you mentioned that and I really didn’t think of that at all.

          This damping on direct democracy seems to be the most salient philosophical point, which seems very reasonable to me as well.

          Thanks.

      3. I think it’s up to the states as to wether they vote for the majority or parce it per the actual votes. California is majority vote making 49% of the vote worthless.

    3. It’s interesting how popular vote trading is these days

      i suspect the ratio that are actually fulfilled as promised is roughly the same* as any markets which rely 100% on an honor system and is entirely unverifiable after the fact.

      *actually, worse. because no other similar sort of thing is based around the concept of cross-partisan cooperation.

      1. Its like the prisoner’s dilemma, only each party gets to cheat with zero consequence.

        1. So…..its actually unlike the prisoners dilemma… I mean the consequences are key for the PD.

          1. which is my point.

            replace “its like” w/ “imagine” if that helps make it clearer.

            1. Yeah…. that was a late night dick comment on my end…. game theory is just kinda my thang

      2. So the best way to game the system is just create a bot, that promises vote swapping Hillary/Trump votes for Gary Johnson/Jill Stein/Jose Canseco/SIV, and get as many people to swap votes as you can.

        You don’t actually change your vote, and of the people you promised to work with 0 or more of them will actually follow through. Thereby, gaining more votes for your preferred candidate, without any cost to yourself.

        This is all fine politics, unless we’re being honest with ourselves in which cases its just lying.

    4. In addition to giving weight to the small states, it also helps contain corruption (in a tight election a few city party machines could easily swing a popular vote through fraud) and it also is more likely to generate an election in which the winner is won by the majority of relevant votes cast (in this election no one will win a majority of the popular vote, but someone will win a majority of the electoral votes – which will make four out of the last eight elections won without a majority in the popular vote but with a majority of the electoral vote). The disadvantages, of course, are that it makes each individual’s vote unequal, is undemocratic (not a bad thing, imo, since we are a republic, not a democracy), and it occasionally awards the election to someone who did not win a plurality of the popular vote (but it has always awarded the election to someone who manages a majority of the popular vote, so this criticism is limited imo).

      1. I wondered mostly because it seems a fairly complex system, so there must be argumentation for it. I don’t believe our founding fathers were just fucking around.

        “The disadvantages, of course, are that it makes each individual’s vote unequal, is undemocratic (not a bad thing, imo, since we are a republic, not a democracy)”

        I agree strongly there, and also because democracy without restraint is pretty unappealing. 51% sentencing the 49% to death (But those 49% had a vote!) is a horrible thing as we know. It was one of the biggest lines of thinking that lead me to Libertarian thought when I was younger. That the best government is one that is neutered from 99 telling the 1 what to do. Freedom, not necessarily democracy.

        The corruption comment was very interesting as well. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

        1. The argument at the time was that each state was a sovereign entity that contracted out a few well-defined and limited functions to a tiny federal government. So each sovereign state got to weigh in on the executive.

          Then the tiny fed grew into a monstrosity hellbent on stamping out all that sovereignity, and people OK with a huge central govt now want to do away with this voting process.

          1. State sovereignty was the issue. It’s why the Senate was elected by the state legislations and not by the people. If you elected the President strictly by popular vote, California and New York and the other big states would have a lot more influence than Wyoming and Montana and the other small states. There was a clear distinction between the citizens of a given state and the state itself, and a further distinction between the states and the federal government. The House represented the people, the Senate the states, the President both in a balanced fashion. With the Senate now being elected by the people directly that distinction is blurred and calls for doing away with the EC blur it furher. Some people think we’re all just one single political entity now and the state divisions just an anachronism.

    5. The winner-take-all implementation of the electoral college is the real problem.

    6. Yeah, it’d be pretty bad if massive numbers in New York and California pushed a candidate over the finish line that lost every other state.

    7. Not one in a hundred people can recount how the Electoral College was supposed to work. The “Electors” were to be local to a given State and their names would appear on the ballot, rather than those of “Trump” and “Clinton.” However, the populace wanted to have a direct vote for one of the idiots …. goodbye Electoral College in all but name, and State by State majority.

  18. I’m not worried. Trump will win and he’ll protect us from the illegals and the muslims and best of all he’ll restore law and order to the inner cities. Because I care about that so much. I really do.

    I’m Jill Stein and I approve this message.

    1. Gee! Look! Fuckface is back!

      1. Gee Sev, when you say things like that it makes me feel like you don’t love me any more.

        1. AddictionMyth|11.6.16 @ 11:40PM|#
          “Gee Sev, when you say things like that it makes me feel like you don’t love me any more.”

          Gee AM, maybe that’s ‘cuase you’re a fucking ignoramus!

          1. You’re hurting my feelings, Sevo.

            1. Since you’re a fucking ignoramus, I thank you.

  19. Stupid, stupid Trumpkins. Where oh where did you go wrong??

    1. Did you neglect the anarcho-Trumpkin wing of your party? They’ll getcha every time.

      1. Now he’s talking back to himself.

        1. Weigel is severely mentally ill.

  20. Sorta on topic.
    Assange gives interview through Russia Today (AM is Putin and he approves this message!)
    https://www.rt.com/news/365405
    (search “assange”)
    Thanks for the info, but don’t bother theorizing; not helping your cause.

    1. Gee! Look! Fuckface is back!

      1. Gee! Look! Fuckface is back!

          1. Here’s your cracker fuckface. Go away.

  21. OK kids, time to go home crying to mommy.

    Jill Stein approves this message.

  22. If you respond to me, please remember to quote me because I’m a wily one I am.

    Jill Stein approves this message.

  23. I promise to abolish safe spaces for trolls once and for all. It’s a big problem folks, and we gotta take care of it. Either we have a comment board or we don’t.

    Jill Stein approves this message.

  24. Clinton”is not as apt to blow us to kingdom come with nuclear weapons as Trump”

    I want to think Penn is a smart guy,

    but i have a hard time believing that when i reflect on the fact that the Clinton campaign (*as well as the current administration) seem to want to blame Russia for just about anything

    And even people as Trump-unfriendly as the Guardian or Jill Stein both seem to think that Hillary’s main problem is her willingness to start shooting at Rooskies.

    I mean, i could see his case if he said anything OTHER than “nuclear war”. But if that’s supposed to be the single-most-concerning issue*? He’s a fucking retard.

    (*i personally hold the view that nukes are more-or-less irrelevant in US/Russia relations…. that they wont ever get used against one another, basically – and that the main are people like the Norks or Pakistanis… but – that aside… its still a dumb calculus)

    1. ^…”the main worry”…

    2. Regarding your parenthetical comment, it seems obvious that there is no one in a position of real power who views nukes as military weapons; with the nukes we have, there is no military target large enough to make them workable.
      They are, and have been for, oh, 50 years (JFK/Khrushchev) diplomatic ‘weapons’.
      Paradoxically, the weakest nations who have them hold the strongest hands, so Jillette seems to have blown it here.
      Sorry to see it.

      1. it seems obvious that there is no one in a position of real power who views nukes as military weapons

        Right.

        But if you listen to the way people like Penn talk about them w/ “his friends”, you realize the general public suffers under some absurd beliefs about them. Don’t even get me started when people start referring to “The Button”

        You’re exactly right that they’re basically diplomatic tools.

        The scary people are the the ones who don’t even *want them for that purpose*. e.g. iran, pakistan, norks. They – in greater or lesser degrees – actually want nukes for what they can DO. Totally different paradigm.

        1. “people are the the ones who don’t even *want them for that purpose*. e.g. iran, pakistan, norks. They – in greater or lesser degrees – actually want nukes for what they can DO. Totally different paradigm.”

          Maybe I wasn’t clear, maybe you missed it:
          This is *exactly* why those ‘nations’ hold the strongest hands. They *ARE* willing to use nukes.
          I’m quite certain that the ‘leaders’ of those countries think ‘the strongest hand’ diplomatically means they hold ‘the strongest hand’ militarily.
          Does Yung ‘Un understand that a class-2 missile from a sub off HI will clean most of NK off the map? I don’t think so, and I don’t think anyone in NK is willing to make it clear to him.

          1. maybe you missed it:

            no i was agreeing and echoing/expanding on your point.

        2. Don’t even get me started when people start referring to “The Button”

          You mean they worry that someone will accidentally sit on The Button and launch a nuclear war? That is scary. Reagan kept it right next to his bed, or at least that is what I remember from some historical claymation I have seen.

    3. Even Jill Stein has tweeted that she thinks Hillary is more likely to start a war than Trump.

  25. OK. I was debating if I should post this or not, but some background.

    A close friend of mine moved to NYC with her husband, whom I do not know. I fell out of touch with her, and she was subjected to an unimaginable tragedy. 2 of her 3 children were murdered by the nanny, who, by all accounts, was undergoing some sort of psychotic break.

    The trauma they faced was unimaginable. They handled it the best they could. Started a foundation (which I have donated a fair chunk of change to) for kids and the arts, etc etc. As far as I can tell, they’ve tried to handle this unimaginable tragedy with class, and tried to turn it into something positive.

    If anyone wants the sordid details, here they are.

    So, onto the issue (continued).

    1. Tonight, the Facebook post of the husband (again, not a person I know):

      “I want to share a story that sadly and strangely connects the two sides of this fractious election with my family’s tragedy. I don’t expect this story to change a single person’s mind about anything, but I’ve had it in my head for years now and it’s time to tell it.

      Very late on the terrible night of October 25, 2012, the night Lulu and Leo were killed, the NYPD finally took Marina, Nessie and me from the hospital and drove us to the Trump International Hotel in Columbus Circle. Why this hotel, I asked. Because, the detectives said, they were concerned about our privacy and this hotel had a very small lobby, a discreet side entrance and, most importantly, their former colleague as head of security. We stayed almost three weeks.

      It was an awful, surreal time. Sandy tore through a few days later. From our room’s window, we could see a crane dangling atop an unfinished building nearby. President Obama won a second term. And Donald Trump was taping All-Star Celebrity Apprentice ? so we’d find ourselves sharing an elevator with Bret Michaels, Stephen Baldwin and Omarosa. We could still appreciate the absurdity amidst our grief. We were treated with sensitivity by the hotel’s fine staff, but we weren’t staying for free.

      1. (CONT)
        In the weeks that followed, we were carried along by a massive amount of generosity and kindness from family, friends and strangers. All of it helped us survive the unimaginable. We received countless messages and letters. We read them all. They mattered, a lot.

        I remember many of the notes distinctly, including a number from notable business leaders and politicians. Brian Roberts, CEO of Comcast, and Steve Burke, CEO of NBCUniversal where I worked, both wrote and even paused their quarterly earnings call with analysts to talk about our loss. Jamie Dimon of JPMorgan Chase wrote a kind personal note. Mayor Bloomberg sent a personal message. The ambassador from the Dominican Republic wrote a thoughtful letter. But one sticks out the most ? going through a pile of mail, I opened a good-quality envelope and pulled out a note with the presidential seal at the top and under it “William Jefferson Clinton” ? it read:

        Dear Marina and Kevin:

        Hillary, Chelsea and I were deeply saddened to learn of Lucia and Leo’s tragic deaths, and our hearts go out to you and your family.

        While no words can ease the pain of such a devastating loss, we hope you will find comfort in the loving support of your friends and community.

        You and Nessie are in our thoughts and prayers.

        Sincerely,
        Bill Clinton
        (signed in the ink of a blue pen, visibly not a stamp)

        I won’t forget any of these notes. They mattered then and matter now.

        We never heard from Donald Trump.”

        1. Playa, I have no idea what that is intended to communicate.

          1. Vote Hillary for his dead children.

            1. Why would Bill Clinton send that letter to them?

              1. Well, the… smart guy inside the sober me would say that he didn’t.

            2. Well, i think Trump just lost whatever hope of winning the Upper West Side he might have had.

            3. i think the only reaction to something like that is to have your facepalm-moment for a second, then forgive the guy, and never ever ever mention it again.

              1. I don’t know him, and I don’t want to. I know the mom, and… fuck.

                It’s not her pulling this stupid shit. I wonder what she thinks about it, but, like you said, I’ll never bring it up.

          2. To clarify:

            I love my children. I wouldn’t whore them out for anything, let alone a meaningless presidential election. And that’s dead or alive.

            I know that the husband and his side of the family are Hillary supporters. I know that they intend for this to go viral. It’s on the way. But I’ve never seen…. whatever this is…. before.

            Politicians stand on piles of dead bodies to achieve their means all the time. I’ve just never seen the bodies of children…. donated…. like this before.

            1. I really don’t think it’s going to work, and the blowback in them could be quite nasty.

              My first thoughts on that story were why BC sent them such a note, some personal connection would be needed or it to make sense. And why would they expect Trump do so too. He’s not mentioning any connection to Trump beyond staying at one of his hotels. Is he so self centered that he thinks the world revolves around him and that everyone should share in his grief? It may come as a shock to him but many people have had children die tragically and Hillary never sent us a thoughtful note. Nor did she when my elderly mom was mugged and stabbed by an illegal immigrant.

              1. He’s not mentioning any connection to Trump beyond staying at one of his hotels

                So he suspects Trump was notified of the situation but didn’t think to tell a subordinate to send any kind of gesture of condolences.

                Not an outlandish leap.

                1. Which is totally what a grieving father should be focused on.

                  1. clearly a person would be obsessed with petty details at a time like that, seeking affirmation from celebrities and political figures. God knows *I* would.

                  2. A few years later, when Trump is running for pres? Meh.

                    Not saying his post was classy or anything.

                    1. MJ, I’m not your dad, although I might be. Never whore your kids out. I would never do that to you.

                      The “Meh” is me canceling my annual gift to their foundation, which I can only assume is bullshit now.

                      If Trump, or anyone in his organization was aware of what happened, I’m sure they would have sent a “sorry your kids were murdered” card. They even sell them off the shelf in Chicago. But only for the parents of rich kids.

                    2. Meh. I get it. It’s a tough sitch for me in terms of emotional reaction, because I generally don’t judge people for their stupid political posts on facebook or for how they react to a tragedy. I understand why the guy’s decision to do this is disturbing, but I’m at negative judgment here.

                2. Yup, William Jefferson Clintonboggins III wept gently in the manner of a dignified statesmen as he penned his sympathy note.

                  Trump was all like “FUCK THAT SHIT MAKE SURE THOSE MOTHERFUCKERS PAY THEIR ROOM SERVICE BILL”

              2. Looks lik BJC stole too much presidential stationary. Somebody check who paid the postage on that envelope.

                BJC feels your pain and cares just like Oprah except Oprah does not get caught laughing walking past soldiers’ caskets when she thinks there are no cameras.

            2. These types of tactics are commonplace, politically, in Euro-landia, Playa. More proof of the Euro-fication of the USA that is continuing apace and unabated. Derpbook makes it even worse, since it’s so much easier to distill, concentrate, and disperse this stuff with the least amount of effort to reach the greatest amount of people.

              10 year ago, it would have taken being on every smut rag cover and tabloid show to get the traction now Derpbook with give them.

            3. Time was this sort of thing would be cringeworthy, but written off by friends and acquaintances as part of the grieving process. Now it will be applauded by all those name checked or clients to those name checked.

              Horrible.

        2. As far as I can tell, they’ve tried to handle this unimaginable tragedy with class, and tried to turn it into something positive

          You spoke too soon!

        3. Fucking hell. Bloody fucking hell.

          Only now I understand the phrase “I can’t even.”

        4. Wow, America’s plutocratic assholes really do care and look out for other rich elites, especially that guy who fucks interns with cigars. How heartwarming.

          Except for Donald Trump of course, who probably laughs when he hears about children being murdered.

          Btw, no you shouldn’t have posted this, it makes you and your friends sound like unbelievable cretins.

          1. Hi Tulpa! Up late on a school night, are we?

            Yes, by mocking this reprehensible behavior, I’m an unbelievable cretin. How dare I?!?

            1. It didn’t sound like mockery to me.

              But then I don’t usually mock my friends on internet forums when they post shit about their murdered children, whether it’s misguided political bullshit or not.

              1. ur a real serious dude wow

                1. No ima clown that’s prolly why I nevr got 2 b third-friends- twice-removed with Michael Bloomberg like you guys

              2. Your nobel prize is in the mail.

                Don’t worry if it smells like shit, that’s just a part of the shipping process.

              3. Yup, it was just some “shit about their murdered children”?that’s all.

                I understand you’re small-minded and insecure, but you don’t need to spread your bullshit everywhere, especially when you have no comprehension of context. Maybe stay quiet and read and reflect every once in a while. You’re not as important as you think you are.

                1. Sure thing bud from now on I’ll try to be more humble and understanding like you.

              4. But then I don’t usually mock my friends on internet forums…

                You have no friends to mock.

  26. Fuck me, this picture nearly blinded me. So much whiteness.

    Note: this comes right after several tweets about Republicans and #LunchesSoWhite.

      1. Works for me.

      2. It was, seems to be back.

        The image, under caption, “Full Frontal staff loves Patton Oswalt.”

  27. One thing this election has made clear is how many Team Red supporters there are around here.

    Libertrumpian moment.

    1. I hate Hillary more than Trump. But I’m not voting for either.

      1. I also hate Hillary more than Trump, for the record… but they’re both unbelievable scum. A pox on both of them.

    2. They climbin in yo windows, they snatchin yo people up.

    3. That was already pretty clear.

    4. I know especially with all that Republican establishment support he gets.

    5. It’s more hatred of corrupt establishment and sycophant media than support for anyone. For many (myself included) the disgust is so intense that it almost causes us to turn a blind eye to Trump’s awfulness, which isn’t healthy, but…

      Fuck it. This site isn’t good for my mental well-being. That ceviche article has ruined my day.

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  31. Penn has definitely lost some brain along with all of that fat. ANYONE who thinks Trump would launch nukes quicker than Hillary is out of their goddamned mind. GayJay proved he is a weaker and less entertaining candidate than my boy McAfee. As dull as he is I would have fully supported him if he had a grasp of what libertarianism in theory actually is. Hell, I lauded Ron Paul and supported him for two cycles, and a charismatic orator and sexy celebrity type he is not. Weld is beyond the pale. May as well be Bob Barr for all the fuck I give. The “orange one ” isn’t my cup of tea but he at least has a lot to lose in a thermonuclear war. What’s clinton’s skin in the game? Or an overtly rich Vegas circus act for that matter?

    1. Observe the reliance on prophesying, and the utter lack of awareness that bookies who calculate probabilities are betting 5 to 1 the Pro-choice prohibitionist looters win and The Antichoice loses. The air sure is thick with whining republicans alluva sudden…

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  33. Scratching my head a bit here. Isn’t the impending nuclear showdown with Russia one of the best arguments in favor of Trump?

    1. If what Trump said regarding foreign policy came out of the mouth of any “professional” politician, a lot of people here would be calling it the Libertarian moment.

      1. Do you feel there is any reason to credit “what comes out of” Trump’s mouth?

        If so, why?

        1. If there is, well, it was good reading your snark, everyone. See you in prison?

        2. I don’t credit anything that comes out of anyone’s mouth. I’m looking at campaign rhetoric.

  34. If elected, Trump will join a pantheon of Republicans stretching from Nixon, to Reagan, to Bush, to the other Bush who have L-I-T-E-R-A-L-L-Y started nuclear wars, at least according to the campaigns.

  35. Clinton “is not as apt to blow us to kingdom come with nuclear weapons as Trump”

    How the fuck did they come to THAT conclusion? That psychotic bitch has actually THREATENED to actually use thermonuclear weapons.

    1. Not only that, but I so easily imagine her cackling like a super-villain as she does so.

    2. So? Remember the rag… er… sand… er… Mohammedan gentleman who came at Indiana Jones with a scimitar? Was it unethical to shoot him? If so, why?

    3. So? Remember the rag… er… sand… er… Mohammedan gentleman who came at Indiana Jones with a scimitar? Was it unethical to shoot him? If so, why?

  36. Voted against the 1st and 2nd Amendments because you got panicked by your friend’s derp? Great job there, you sold yourself cheap.

  37. “I’m principled,” said the hyporcrite.

  38. Nothing will explain why you held your nose and wasted your vote on Hillary Clinton who is a bigger war monger than Dick Cheney and who supports the racist and un Constitutional war on drugs.

    Nothing will explain why you held your nose and wasted your vote on the racist warmonger and foe of individual liberty,
    Hillary Clinton.

  39. It’s like the world is forcing me to vote trump

  40. Congratulations Penn! You made my respect for you disappear. Fucking sellout.

    1. Vade retro, Schadenfreude!

  41. You know what, I have more respect for Jilette than I do for most of the so-called “libertarians” currently providing content for Reason, who in many cases are doing the exact same thing he did but won’t fess up. At least he had the balls to come out and tell the truth.

  42. It’s like the world is forcing me to vote trump.

    Nice signaling asshole

  43. I really, really, REALLY wish I had not voted early for GJ/Weld-we have been duped. If Penn thinks that these 12 people are actually going to vote for GJ, he is a lot dumber than I thought.

    I am very tempted to try voting again tomorrow-if they say it shows I already voted, I can just say that it must be a mistake and they might give me a provisional ballot at least. How would this be any less ethical than what Penn has done?

    1. You’re advocating voter fraud. Sorry, no sympathy here. Doing it would make you just like the Democrat’s fraud machine.

      Penn was never a Libertarian. It was cool to be Libertarian until Hillary was losing then the LINOs had to save her.

      Luckily, Hillary will still lose and the exposed LINOs are still exposed for the frauds that they are.

      1. I watched some of Jillette’s YouTube videos, and I knew he was just another fairly conventional lefty idiot as soon as I saw the one where he went all boo-hoo weepy eyed for the Muslims and implied that they’re victims.

        Jilette may claim that Christopher Hitchens was one of his heroes, but Jilette is no Christopher Hitchens. He apparently didn’t learn much from him, because Hitchens had nothing but fully justified contempt for the Islamonazis and all their murderous insanity they foist on the world.

        But as I said before, at least he told the truth. He could easily have lied through his teeth and with a straight face said “of course I voted for Gary Johnson!”, but he didn’t.

      2. I do not plan to do any such thing, actually! First of all, I am too lazy to go stand in line tomorrow in my proggie-heavy precinct. Second, I still think GJ is the best candidate because the others suck major ass. That said, I am expressing my very real frustration with how a “libertarian” public figure is throwing his support behind the woman who represents the opposite of libertarianism. The only good thing Hillary could do as president is destroy the proggie-establishment democrat brand, which might give libertarians an opening in future elections.

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  45. This is silly.

    First, of all, as Penn knows well, Hillary is no better than Trump. And, deciding between them is a Sophie’s choice. On his head will be all the evil perpetrated by Hillary that might not happen if Trump were elected.

    Second, this advances the silly argument that one should vote for the Ls only when it doesn’t matter.

    To become relevant politically, and therefore important politically, you have to affect the outcome of the elections. If Gary’s campaign “costs” Hillary the election, then L positions and issues will be addressed by the next D candidate. If L positions and campaigns “elect” the Rs, then they will pay attention to Ls.

    If Ls don’t affect the outcome of elections – as has been mostly true since the party’s inception – then no one cares about Libertarians, except of course, libertarians in cocktail party conversation.

    1. Your “costs” argument makes no sense. By the same logic, “L positions” are “costing” the Rs from winning, and the Rs will listen next time.

      Both candidates are disliked within their own parties, and both favor big government programs. The “outsider” however, is more likely to ignore critics and appoint incompetent people to positions of absurd power, all in the name of “making America Great” and we know that involves starting a trade war and instituting a police state to deal with immigration, AND there’s a good chance he would have a complicit congress.

      Hillary is the weaker candidate and will get less done. That’s only a positive given the 2 most likely scenarios.

    2. Not silly. Six spoiler votes in exchange for one wasted one is a good deal, though it would help if they were verifiable. If by similar logic he had traded his vote for Trump for those same half-dozen LP votes (worth 36 to 216 votes using the income tax and prohibition-derived las-changing leverage factor), the clump of semiliterate pro-life-after-death nationalsocialists that bring down property values in this forum would be falling all over themselves with congratulations for Penn’s brilliant horse-swapping.
      I wish we had more such “traitors” as Penn.

  46. I can understand not voting for Trump but voting for Hillary is the surrendering of rights to the government. its Stupid on all levels

    1. This is the sort of reasoning I wish for from an opponent in a battle–or even a knife fight. You lot of puritans would do well to avoid playing poker for cash if this is the best grasp of game theory y’all can muster.

  47. Penn did the right thing here. Clinton will definitely win and after this election both voters and candidates will start looking for a new party, so why not draw attention to the LP and try to gain more ballot access?

    Trump cheers on his thuggish supporters, while Hillary’s thugs are paid under the table. You might say those cancel each other out, but only the first one is reminiscent of past dictators. Starting a trade war with the help of a Republican congress is the last thing this country needs right now.

  48. Looks like someone is getting their cocktail party invite! Vote swapping is the greatest cover yet for the sell-out crowd to pretend like they didn’t just vote for an ant-First Amendment and anti-Second Amendment candidate who has never seen a reason to expand government that she didn’t like, because the other candidate is ‘mean’.

    So awesome, guys. I’m sure there will be a lot of ‘vote swapping’ on the Reason staff.

    1. The plain and simple truth is that the overwhelming majority of people who claim that they’re libertarian really aren’t. “Professional fake libertarian” is probably one of America’s biggest current growth industries.

    2. Penn should just admit he wanted to keep working in show business and so he supported Hollywood’s favorite statist.

  49. “had a bunch of friends prevail upon him that Clinton “is not as apt to blow us to kingdom come with nuclear weapons as Trump””

    No offense, but he should find some smarter friends.

  50. He voted for Hillary? What is he auditioning for a job with Reason?

  51. Inside every rich celebrity ‘libertarian’ is a compliant docile idiot fascist drone dying to get out. It’s not enough you don’t have principles, sir, you have to brag about it. I’ll you what I tell all the drones – whatever happens, good or bad, is on you.

  52. As obnoxious as Trump can be, this is not a difficult election for to analyze. Two more young leftists on the Supreme Court and the Bill of Rights will be phased out. But hey maybe Trump grabbed Gillette by the p***y. This election is separating the libertarians from the posers and the hipsters.

    1. I’m voting for Johnson, but I agree that is the scariest part of a Hillary win. I’m not worried Trump is going to nuke some place. That would be too stupid even for him. But her controlling the court? Very not good.

  53. He’s a an aging swinger, living in a swing-state, and people are surprised he swung. I was pinning any hopes on Penn so it doesn’t really matter – other than I value his opinion slightly less than I would value any other celebrities political opinion, so…

    1. I wasn’t , I mean. (still need edit button, Reason!)

  54. Boooooo.
    Sell out!
    What a bum.!
    Some Libertarian.

  55. I thought this was a brilliant swap option, and I’m not even a Penn fan. I did sign a form today “waiving” my “right” to have the government force me at gunpoint to keep my ballot secret. People have no idea how difficult it is to cast a vote from outside of These States.

  56. Penn Jillette is a traitor. This is all that needs to be said:

    https://youtu.be/nF0YpXcZw9U

  57. My respect for Penn Jillette is shot. Fuck him, he’s not a real libertarian, just like Johnson and Weld aren’t, if he was going to initially vote for Johnson its not a surprise that he switched his vote for Hitlery. All his credibility is shot with me, again fuck him. At least I could’ve respected him if he’d stuck to a semi principled position and got behind Gary.

    1. Simultaneously I sympathize with yet still pity these writers. The swap gets libertarians the kind of votes (popular votes) that matter and change laws. We already got an electoral vote, thanks to McBride, so that hurdle is leapt. A vote-swapping derivatives market is exploitable for squaring and cubing the already huge clout spoiler votes carry in the down-ballot races. The most disappointing thing about these foot-stamping and pouting reactions is: if this is how well Americans understand even this most basic of swap and hedging strategies, getting them to understand how prohibition enforcement causes economic collapse through financial leveraging is going to be an uphill battle indeed!

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  61. Penn’s math is good and the tactic admirable. But there is an implicit belittling of protest votes where probability of a job-getting win is low. The Prohibition Amendment was forced into law with 1.4% of the popular vote. No Prohibition candidate got a single electoral vote, so the popular vote DOES change laws even if it does not replace or unseat many politicians. But a principled dissenting voice in a homogeneous crowd improves (by about 15% in a small group) the decisions of other members of that crowd by reinforcing their own, albeit suppressed, ethical judgment regarding what is right. Your libertarian vote is the tipping point for less-courageous, undecided people, and those votes are recorded in history for productive use by statisticians coming up with new ways to advance freedom a century later–like the electoral for popular swap option vote we saw here. This is the best derivatives market yet derived.

    1. A protest vote is not voting for the candidate you want just because there is a small chance of him winning.

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  63. I live in NY, so it doesn’t matter, in terms of who is getting the electoral votes so I was going to Vote Johnson/Weld with the theory that the getting as many votes as possible for the LP is a good symbolic thing. Then a friend was stupid enough to post this article on Facebook which made me vote Clinton/Kaine. Don’t post pro-Trump articles on Facebook, just tell people to vote their conscience, I now feel I didn’t out of anger at this bastard who wrote this POS article:
    http://yellowhammernews.com/po…..cide-vote/

    I mean, for Christ’s sake…

    1. I didn’t read the article, but why would you let a single article on election day sway your opinion? You should feel anger at yourself. Your state is guaranteed Blue. The last time NY voted Red was when I was born 32 years ago. And that definitely wouldn’t change for Trump.

      1. If you read the article you’d understand why I’d want to piss of the guy who wrote it.

        1. *off

  64. Anyone have a video of what happened after? I’d like to see that.

    I’m in FL. I’m voting for Johnson you cowards. 🙂

  65. Sigh. I don’t trust vote swapping it’s to easy to get bamboozled, ballot selfies can be faked, and once a ballot is cast, there’s no way of verifying it (the very nature of a secret ballot).

    I guess that may have been part of the calculus of a 1 to 12 trade. If it was an honest trade all around, he made a great deal, if only 50% were honest, still a good deal. But I think it sets a bad example. And polling really shouldn’t be trusted in making a determination about how you are going to vote (much less trade it). It gives incentive to manipulating the polls in order to influence the real vote.

    At least he feels conflicted about it. At least the LP of Nevada only needs 1% for ballot access, and is polling around 5%.

    I’m not going to bash him for it. His intents are clear and just, even if the method may not be. He’s far more important as a communicator of libertarian ideas to get on his case over this. It’s not like he’s a party official.

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  67. I wonder what the chances are any of those people actually voted for Gary Johnson. Maybe a couple, but I’m guessing the majority did not.

    1. Weld said Hillary was the bomb baby, moral and principled! Why vote for Gary when the VP of the LP candidates vouches for the Hilldog. You people need to get with it. Just look at all the people who want Trump to be defeated, majority of Media, majority of Celebrities, GOP RINO elite, McMuffin supporters, Big Banks, China, Saudis, anyone who dumped a lot of money into Clinton Foundation and the majority of the Reason staff. Don’t you kids want to be popular, well now you got your out Penn has show you the way. I am making a sign right now “Vote for the HO, TRUMP MUST GO!” Tell me what ya think?

  68. I wanted so bad to vote for Gary Johnson but I went for blank. I’m not sure that he could have picked a bigger looser as VP as he did when henpecked Weld. Heck, Sarah Palin and John Edwards were a better choices as VP. Weld is actually the only name on the ticket worse the Hillary Clinton.

  69. I consider this selling your vote and I don’t think this should be legal if it is legal.

  70. What a sorry ass. All his BS on being noble with his vote. he will loose a lot of respect.

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  75. I liked you better when you were fat, Penn.

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  77. until I looked at the paycheck saying $4730 , I did not believe that…my… brother woz like actualy bringing in money part time from there computar. . there friend brother started doing this for less than 7 months and resently paid for the morgage on there home and bought a new Cadillac …….

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