Obamacare

Even Bill Clinton Thinks Obamacare Is a "Crazy System" That "Doesn't Make Sense"

The former president explains how Obamacare is failing.

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Salwan Georges/TNS/Newscom

Hillary Clinton hasn't spent much time talking about Obamacare on the campaign trail recently. But Bill Clinton has. And he thinks the law's insurance scheme amounts to a "crazy system" that doesn't serve small business owners and people who work long hours but make just a little bit too much money to qualify for federal aid.

At a rally in Michigan yesterday, Bill was blunt in describing his frustrations with the law's coverage mechanisms.

"So you've got this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care and then the people who are out there busting it, sometimes 60 hours a week, wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. It's the craziest thing in the world," the former president said, according to CNN.

Describing the incentives the law creates for insurers to jack up health insurance rates, he said that, "It doesn't make sense. The insurance model doesn't work here."

Clinton also pointed out that the people hit hardest are those who make just enough money that they don't qualify for the law's most generous subsidies.

"The current system works fine if you're eligible for Medicaid, if you're a lower-income working person, if you're already on Medicare, or if you get enough subsidies on a modest income that you can afford your health care," he said. "But the people that are getting killed in this deal are small business people and individuals who make just a little too much to get any of these subsidies."

No, Bill Clinton hasn't suddenly turned into an opponent of Obamacare, or a critic of government involvement in health care policy. In his remarks, he also touted Hillary Clinton's still somewhat vague proposal to let more people buy into Medicare. He's not going to speak up in defense of the next GOP repeal vote.

But he was accurately describing some of the problems with the law, which provides health insurance subsidies for people making up to 400 percent of the poverty line, but provides an extra boost for lower-income individuals whose earnings fall below 250 percent of the poverty line.

Those at the lower end of the earnings spectrum have been relatively shielded from premium hikes that have occurred in the individual market under the law, yet people who earn just above those thresholds—and particularly those who earn just enough to get no subsidies at all—have been walloped by premium hikes over the past few years, and are set to get hit with significant increases going into 2017.

As The New York Times noted yesterday in a look at the law's ongoing troubles, "enrollment figures suggest that higher-income people who receive smaller subsidies or none at all have not seen insurance as such a bargain," and sign-ups have lagged as a result. According to a July report from the Commonwealth Fund, many people who don't get subsidies end up spending an outsized amount of their income on health coverage, and slightly more than half of those who get coverage under the law don't find their plans affordable.

As with Hillary Clinton's relative silence about the law, Bill Clinton's riff is plenty revealing.

He has always been unusually gifted at communicating, in clear and accessible language, not only how policy functions but what the lived experience of those who interact with a law or program is like. This is no exception. In typical fashion, he rather succinctly how the policy is designed and what its problems turned out to be, as well as the type of person who is most likely to experience those problems. (You might say he feels the pain of Obamacare.)

He's not lamely touting the law's virtues and successes while pretending that its problems don't exist, or trying to downplay them. He's digging into the frustrations that people have with the law, and explaining why it's working—or, in this case, not working—the way it is.

If Obamacare were an obvious success—one that not only worked but widely felt like it was working—you can bet that Bill Clinton would be singing its praises.

But he's not. Instead, he's focusing on its problems, making the case that it's a poorly thought out law that doesn't do a good job of serving many of the people it was supposed to help.

It's a pretty clear sign that Obamacare is broken, and that no matter who becomes president, the health care reform law will itself be in need of some serious reforms.

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394 responses to “Even Bill Clinton Thinks Obamacare Is a "Crazy System" That "Doesn't Make Sense"

  1. A nice primer on why the Obama’s supposedly loathe the Clintons.

    1. My best friend’s sister makes $97 an hour on the internet . She has been out of a job for six months but last month her check was $14750 just working on the internet for a few hours. Go this website and Go to tech tab to start your work… http://tinyurl.com/zp242lj

  2. Vote harder – this time the Democrats will fix it!

    1. We just haven’t socialismed hard enough yet.

      1. We need to run out of other people’s money longer, later, more quickly, more expensively, less efficiently, harder, and faster!

  3. Question, has reason at least linked to the WaPo story on the Obama admin sniffing around an insurer bailout, using the Iran hostage account slush fund? Because while Paul Krugman talks about bumps in the road, even the Obama administration seems to recognize that the ACA is in a death spiral.

    1. But only because Paul Ryan and Congressional Republicans blocked the risk corridor payments. There’d be no need for this extraordinary effort to shore up the ACA if they’d already been bailed out.

      Oh, and just because they’re losing money hand over fist and withdrawing from exchanges and requesting many billions of dollars in bailouts doesn’t mean the model is fatally flawed and will only get worse, because… reasons.

    2. The insurance companies are evil and profiteering…so we have to give them lots of dirty terrorist money?
      4D chess is confusing.

    3. Didn’t find WaPo, but found this:

      “How Obama could try to bail out Obamacare insurers”
      […]
      “In a little noticed memo released last Friday afternoon, the Obama administration signaled to insurers that it is eyeing another way to funnel bailout money to the industry that has been racking up billions of losses through Obamacare.”
      http://www.washingtonexaminer……le/2601545

      I’ll bet that bastard loads stories on Thursday into an auto-release function on the servers set for 5:25PM, Friday. Slimy doesn’t cover it…

      1. Most transparent administration evah!

        1. In a certain way, that’s true. If he speaks, it’s a lie. Period.

          1. When Richard NixonBarack Obama talks out of both sides of his mouth, he lies out of both sides of his mouth.

      2. Someone made a comment a couple days ago that if they were a journalist, they’d just wait until Friday to start working on stories since that’s when all the juicy stuff comes out.

        1. Yeah, but I’m the only one in the world who reads the Saturday newspaper, and I’m no longer surprised.

      3. Try this

        The Obama administration is maneuvering to pay health insurers billions of dollars the government owes under the Affordable Care Act, through a move that could circumvent Congress and help shore up the president’s signature legislative achievement before he leaves office.

        Justice Department officials have privately told several health plans suing over the unpaid money that they are eager to negotiate a broad settlement, which could end up offering payments to about 175 health plans selling coverage on ACA marketplaces, according to insurance executives and lawyers familiar with the talks.

  4. I looked at the $700 in monthly premiums for coverage for just me and said, fuck it, gonna take my chances going uninsured.

    Thanks, Dems!

    1. Me too, but I’m currently in school so I don’t make enough to pay the ‘penaltax’.

      Though I’ve paid the ‘penaltax’ to my girlfriend several times.

      1. You misspelled “peniletax”.

    2. Bill left out one rantable feature of the current insurance regime.
      Obamacare is known as MNsure in MN. If you are over age 55 and receive a subsidy to offset the insurance premium, that cumulative subsidy is clawed back from your estate when you die
      How many other govt subsides are clawed back upon death?

  5. “…No, Bill Clinton hasn’t suddenly turned into a proponent of Obamacare, or a critic of government involvement in health care policy. In his remarks, he also touted Hillary Clinton’s still somewhat vague proposal to let more people buy into Medicare….”

    Yeah, he opposes O-care for the same reason Bernie does; not *enough* free shit.

    1. They’re lubing us up for single payer.

      1. They have lubed us up and inserted the pinky finger… soon comes the fist.

        1. I find it ironically appropriate that I can get a tube shoved up my ass for no additional cost under Obamacare.
          Picking out any internal dingle berries they find when doing that, however, does cost extra.

      2. Trust me, they’ll go in dry.

  6. You can almost feel the Hillbots and the Obamabots squaring off.

    1. It makes you feel like a goat watching two wolves fight it out, knowing that the winner is going to eat you.

      1. more like a wolf watching two goats fight, knowing that the winner is going to eat you.

  7. It’s a pretty clear sign that Obamacare is broken, and that no matter who becomes president, the health care reform law will itself be in need of some serious reforms.

    Hopefully, by “serious reform” you mean “repeal and throwing the whole damned piece of legislation into a wood chipper, burning the shredded remains, and scattering the ashes to the four winds”. I could get behind that.

    1. Unless he has changed his mind, Suderman is in the camp that believes its not reform unless it grows the federal register and federal payroll.

      1. Unfortunately, that does seem to fit the pattern I’ve seen so far. Intervening has caused prices to skyrocket and quality to tank. Obviously, the answer is to intervene even more!

  8. So perhaps this is me but, I have noticed a severe lack of down ticket races. The ONLY race outside the “Top Circus” that is making any noise is Amendment 71 here on Colorado (basically, don’t let the proles put things on the ballot). No much on the senate, nothing on the house, no really contentious adds from around the country. What happened to all the oxygen? What happened to reports of county commissioner candidates stealing signs etc. Or state reps freaking out over threatening faxes? It’s like there is really only one election.

    1. We’re getting dueling ads on pot legalization here.

      Last I checked, its a dead heat. God knows how good the polls are, but if its still a dead heat on election day, its gonna lose. The Trump voters will break against it, and people get all conservative when they vote on shit like this.

      Still mildly optimistic, though.

    2. In SF, we’ve got supervisory candidates trying to out ‘free-shit’ one another. And a proggy cat-fight between a truly loathsome socialist hag name of Jane Kim and the lefty money-bags Ron Conway, so that’s kinda fun.
      To give you an idea of Kim’s abysmal stupidity, she proposed to help SF’s housing ‘crisis’ by making homes valued at more than (some number she pulled out of her ass) ‘illegal’. She fantasized that this would force the developers to build cheaper housing.

      1. Holy fuck that is a dumb idea.

      2. Ms Kim also passed legislation that invalidates rental contracts between landlords and tenants that restrict the number of occupants per unit. So after you make a deal with your landlord that it’s just you and your partner you can move in five more people the month after and they can’t do shit about it.

        She is one of the worst of a putrid lot.

      3. Brilliant.

      4. Can you give me a link? I tried to find that gem via Google and came up empty.

        1. I don’t know if you were talking to Sevo or me with regards to a link but here is one to mine.

          http://www.sfaa.org/february2016/1602_singer.shtml

          1. I was talking to Sevo, but thanks anyways.

    3. Marco Rubio and Patrick Murphy are running for worst Senate candidate ever. Someone has to win, but it won’t be Floridians.

    4. Clich? Bandit, how is the CO Senate District 14 race (Fort Collins area) going?

      1. Haven’t heard a peep but I am down in the South Metro area of Denver. I do know Johnson was here yesterday in Parker for a Rally…thats all I got.

  9. If your alternative is the Fuck Off and Die Parasite Act, then you don’t get to bitch about Obamacare. No bonus points for magical markets or not having a healthcare access expansion plan at all.

    1. Tony wants cake!

      1. Umm, Sparky, can you READ> He wants an alternative. You have none. So he made a monkey out of you,.
        I can barely imagine anyone being publicly humiliated by TONY! (OMG)

        1. All that comes from my womb is sacred.

          1. says the 12-year-old kid, as he giggles
            (Red Rocks now stalks me with a childish alias)

            1. Preach on my son. Ejaculate your wisdom over these unfortunate sheep.

              1. The ones that are rejected by 91% of libertarians? (per Cato)
                http://www.cato.org/policy-rep…..-2004-2006

                Actually, they’re sheeple, travel in packs like wild dogs … even shamelessly defaming one’s deceased parent.

    2. “If you have nothing nice to say [about my partisan pet project], don’t say anything at all.”

      1. Ummm, he asked for an alternative to Obamacare. So you’re also illiterate, on top of ignorant.

        1. +1 Literally literate son.

          1. Thi is what happens when cyber-bully like Red Rocks gets totally humiliated 13 times on one page … after his 13 aggressions on one page. Doesn;t dare deal with an issue any more.. Cowardce..

            1. Your courage cannot be matched, my son. Go on and fight the good fight.

              1. STOP BEATING UP ON HIHN!

                He is an important person who has been elected dumbfuck.

    3. Gotta love false choices, especially the retarded ones.

      1. Gotta love false choices, especially the retarded ones.

        Tranbslation: Steve G has NO ALTERNATIVe TO OBAMACARE!!! So he attacks his challenger.

        1. Lol. Way to come in hours later and mop up…

          1. Steve G
            Lol. Way to come in hours later and mop up… No, you fucked up even if nobody called you out. Why do all your thugs use the same dumbass excuse?

            P.S. Your reply is later than mine, Sluggo And youi STILL have no alternative to Obamacare!!! Did I say that soon enough? (snicker)

            (My tone and and boldface in defense of aggression – also a childish personal attack)

            1. The boldness of my son is truly inspiring.

              1. My Mom’s dead, you pathetic fucking cocksucker acting like a 12-year-old kid.

                1. What is dead shall never die.

                  1. …or ever make sense. What the hell are you rambling on about now?

                    1. The bully is also defaming my dead mother.

                      Or … if you mean me, which part of this is beyond your comprehension?

                      “Translation: Steve G has NO ALTERNATIVe TO OBAMACARE!!! So he attacks his challenger.”

                      I’ll go slowly.
                      My REPLY noted that Steve G then attacked ME ,… STILL with no libertarian alternative to Obamacare. (why are bullies always stupid?)

                      Save your breath. Cato’s (and Paul Ryan’s) Medicare vouchers will increase competition ,… IN THE WRONG MARKET! Seniors have ALWAYS had many choices in the PROVIDER market, but never had “skin in the game” — so Cato has the wrong market and thinks “skin in the game” is irrelevant.

                      Did you learn that here?
                      NOW do you get the point?

                      Bonus round. Does Cato (and Paul Ryan) also believe we can affect the automobile market and prices with more competition between Allstate and GEICO?

        2. Here’s an alternative. Just repeal the whole thing and go back to the way it was before and then think of ways to open up the market instead of closing it down.

          1. Here’s an alternative.

            You reveal the ignorance of the libertarian establishment, proving me correct!.

            Just repeal the whole thing and go back to the way it was before

            Ummm, that’s the ignorance. Medicare now takes a quarter trillion dollars per year from INCOME TAXES not the Trust Fund. That’s how the prescriptions were “paid for”, as the Republicans got fucked again in exchange for Democrat votes, Do you know what that means?

            Medicare is running a deficit of $250 billion, on FICA taxes. But instead of reducing the Trust Fund — which would be wiped out INSTANTLY, they take it from income taxes.

            Either way it must be borrowed because the Trust Fund has been spent. But now the borrowing is charged to the General Fund Trust instead of the Trust Fund. Republicans sabotaged the Trust Fund, boosting Democrats!! .

            PLUS the amount is more than twice the spending for prescriptions!

            and then think of ways to open up the market instead of closing it down.

            So you have NO “alternative,” and you agree with me that Cato has NOTHING.

            Behold the intellectual bankruptcy of the anti-gummint mentality. “Git gummint out” is NEITHER pa policy or a solution on its own.

            I’m NOT blaming you … just showing the consequences of blind faith in your own tribe, whose establiishment is just as corrupt as the other two tribes. Sorry.

            1. *Mic Drop*

              *Dick Swinging*

              1. My Mom’s dead you shameless cocksucker.

                1. I will always live in your heart.

    4. Tony|10.4.16 @ 12:19PM|#
      “If your alternative is the Fuck Off and Die Parasite Act,”

      As opposed to the “Poverty and Starvation for All” act?
      Fuck off and die, parasite.

      1. You don’t understand, what of someone gets hit by a bus and is made accidentally pregnant? Because that’s why we need government mandates in health insurance.

        1. WTF, then we make the nuns pay for her abortion.

      2. SEVO HAS NO ALTERNATIVE TO OBAMACARE!
        Tony smoked him.

        1. Al alternative would be to repeal Obamacare. It’s plain to see that the health insurance market is even worse now than it was before. It’s more expensive and less responsive, which is pretty amazing. So it would be better if Obamacare never even fucking happened.

          1. Replaced with what?

            Do you know your previous system is propped up with a quarter trillion dollar Medicare subsidy from income taxes? (Cato doesn’t know that) Don’t forget, Cato’s Medicare “solution” is vouchers that create competition in the wrong market (insurance)!!! Can we affect automobile prices with more competition between Allstate and GEICO?

            Since Obamacare passed by default .,.. the same “solution” you just endorsed, we now have all those millions of people who will go back to being uninsured. Guess what, most Americans DON’T CARE how costly Obamacare is … to them, that’s the price of insuring more Americans. So, with no alternative to THAT, it’s IMPOSSIBLE to get elected. Sorry.

        2. Hihn is so correct. 100%.

          1. Thanks. That’s why Red Rocks stalked me all up and down the page.
            He jumped into a thread launching personal aggression. Made a total fool of himself. Began stalking me as punishment. Then made an ass of himself 12 more times.(so far)

            Anyone else OBSESSED with attacking and punishing? Yeah, I think so too.
            He’s really Donald Trump.

    5. FODPA is a perfectly cormulent piece of legislation.

      1. It’s cromulent. And “we” have NO alternative. Never did, so Obamacare passed by default.

        1. BALLS

    6. Democracy means, “shut up and do what I want”.

      1. Try again.

    7. If your alternative is the Fuck Off and Die Homeless Act, then you don’t get to bitch about the Hillary Free Housing Act of 2021.

    8. If your alternative is the Fuck Off and Die Hungry Act, then you don’t get to bitch about the Chelsea Free Food Act of 2030.

      See, let’s just carry your bullshit to the logical conclusion. Let’s make everything a ‘basic human right’ since we’re all just living off the 1%’ers and personal responsibility is no longer a thing.

      1. I thought we were all living off of Fed fantasy money now

      2. (laughing) Tony asked for an alternative … defended nothing … despite dozens of screeching saying he did, but NO alternative. He beat you!

        “Git gummint out” is NOT a solution, and has crippled our movement enough already.

        1. Another insightful comment from my dear son,

          1. Thanks. That’s why Red Rocks stalked me all up and down the page.
            He jumped into a thread launching personal aggression. Made a total fool of himself. Began stalking me as punishment. Then made an ass of himself 12 more times.(so far)

            Anyone else OBSESSED with attacking and punishing? Yeah, I think so too.
            He’s really Donald Trump.

          2. Thanks. That’s why Red Rocks stalked me all up and down the page.
            He jumped into a thread launching personal aggression. Made a total fool of himself. Began stalking me as punishment. Then made an ass of himself 12 more times.(so far)

            Anyone else OBSESSED with attacking and punishing? Yeah, I think so too.
            He’s really Donald Trump.

            1. #TRIGGERED

    9. Obligatory:

      “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.” – Bastiat

      1. I love a writer who knows his gerunds.

      2. I said no free market magic bullshit.

        The libertarian selective socialist will conclude that just because I object to his rights and property being protected by government that I don’t favor such things at all.

        1. No, this iPad is my personal property, which is different from private property because… reasons.

          1. No, this iPad is my personal property, which is different from private property because… reasons.

            (lol) It’s BOTH.

        2. Tony|10.4.16 @ 12:41PM|#
          “I said no free market magic bullshit.”

          We ALREADY know you’re an ignoramus Tony. You don’t have to prove it every day.

          1. “I said no free market magic bullshit.”

            We ALREADY know you’re an ignoramus Tony. You don’t have to prove it every day

            If by :free market bullshit” he means mindless slogans devoid of policy ,…. you made an ass of yourself again, trashmouth.

            Name a free market SOLUTION from ANYWHERE in the libertarian establishment.

        3. just because I object to his rights and property being protected by government that I don’t favor such things at all

          I don’t think anyone was questioning that you favor other people’s things. It’s the part where you don’t let them keep their things that’s the problem.

        4. “Explain projectile physics without invoking any of that bullshit theory of gravitation”

          This is what you sound like.

          1. See? You can’t do it! Tony has proved projectile physics doesn’t work!!

          2. There is no such thing as gravity, the universe just sucks

        5. I said no free market magic bullshit

          You mean like back in the 50s when Medicare and Medicaid didn’t exist, but a normal live birth and two days in a private room in the hospital cost 4%, inflation-adjusted, of what it does today?

          1. Everyone that in the 50s sick poor people were dying in the streets.
            Dying. In. The. Streets.

          2. I believe Politifact rated this little Ron Paul nugget as “delusional.”

            1. You believe all sorts of retarded things, Tony.

            2. Politifact.

              For starters, it’s not factually accurate to say that letting transgender students into locker rooms amounts to boys being permitted to shower with girls.

              Objective fact checking.

              1. Hey, if you change the definitions, you can make any word mean whatever you want it to mean!

            3. I’ve seen my hospital birth bill from the 1940s. Nine days, $90.
              Wonder what you can get at a hospital for $90 these days?

              1. $90 will get you eight hours in a waiting room, half a Tylenol, and an antibiotic-resistant Clostridium infection.

                I wonder what happened in the 1940s to get that inflation rolling?

              2. a couple of kleenex (oh sorry tissue paper, they don’t actually provide the expensive name brand stuff) and half a ibuprofin

              3. I’ve seen my hospital birth bill from the 1940s. Nine days, $90.

                That’s about $975-1,500, inflation-adjusted, for nine days. Funny how much cheaper everything actually is when people are forced to use cash.

            4. I believe Politifact rated this little Ron Paul nugget as “delusional.”

              That’s because Politifact, and you, can’t be bothered to do the same research as some random blogger:

              “Private Rooms, starting at $19.00”
              “Obstetrical Service Cost, $30.00”
              “Care of the baby in the regular nursery will be charged $6.00 a day while the mother is in the hospital.”

              $80 (birth plus two days in the room/nursery, since you’re mathematically challenged) in 1952 is $727, inflation-adjusted.

              From WebMD: “The costs of childbirth can be steep. The charge for an uncomplicated cesarean section was about $15,800 in 2008. An uncomplicated vaginal birth cost about $9,600, government data show.” We were charged $10K a piece for our kids who were born in 2013 and 2015. The two-day hospital stay for the last one was $15K. That’s $25K for one kid.

              $727/$25,000 is 2.9%. So I was wrong initially, the cost disparity is actually worse.

              How does it feel to be completely incapable of doing 5th-grade math and basic research?

              1. Math and research are cishet patriarchal oppression! Quit othering Tony’s ways of knowing.

                1. It’s not like I haven’t cited it before over the last 5 years I’ve been commenting here. Tony’s just so dumb that he has to be reminded of it every time he talks about it.

              2. It’s not that Politifact can’t be bothered to do the research, it’s that they are dishonest left wing partisan hacks promoting an agenda.

              3. Dumbfuck Red Rocks doesn’t know almost everyone had health insurance by then.
                So he’s citing co-pays.
                (giggle)

            5. Oh, well if a leftwing group of partisan hacks says it, it must be true!

            6. You mean here?

              http://www.politifact.com/trut…..alth-care/

              “[W]e’re unable to rate the accuracy of Paul’s statement on the Truth-O-Meter. As Paul has often noted, charitable care was an accepted part of the health care system during that period. “There were physicians who simply would not refuse care anyone who appeared in their offices and did God’s work,” said Henry Aaron a health care specialist at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank.

              But even if the 1950s and early 1960s were a golden age for medical care as Paul suggests — a notion Aaron derides as “delusional’ — experts we talked to suggested that the era’s model isn’t of much use for policy discussions going forward.”

              Politifact did not rate anything delusional, some guy at Brookings they interviewed said that. They were unable to rate it themselves.

              1. Look, Anarchrist, Tony is a hateful, stupid, dishonest little man.

                1. Look, Anarchrist, Tony is a hateful, stupid, dishonest little man.

                  Does he talk like a fucking asshole? Or are you the bully here?

              2. So “isn’t much use for policy discussions” is a victory to you?

                1. So “isn’t much use for policy discussions” is a victory to you?

                  The actual facts and figures I posted certainly was one for me. For you, not so much.

              3. What kind of dumbass doesn’t know the “charitable care” was provided by CHARITY HOSPITALS? I seem to recall they were all religious based, mostly Catholic, but I was born in a Lutheran one. EVERYONE was treated, all from voluntary donations and the collection plate.

                Medicaid killed them and has a HUGHER uninsured rate than the private market, Before Obamacare expansion, which will take a while to measure.

                I told my doctor, “I’m am atheist, but I KNOW that no church hospital would turn away ANYONE.”

                I’d been saying that for decades. THIS doctor smiled and said,” That would be a mortal sin.” BINGO. Not to Congress.

          3. You mean like back in the 50s when Medicare and Medicaid didn’t exist, but a normal live birth and two days in a private room in the hospital cost 4%, inflation-adjusted, of what it does today?

            Give a source, wacko. It’s humiliating to see a guy like Tony make monkeys out of you folks.

            1. It’s right here, dumbshit–Santa Monica Hospital, 1952:

              http://charleshughsmith.blogsp…..-back.html

              Here’s one from CNN that lists a birth that cost $70–or $756 inflation-adjusted.

              http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/02/…..irth-bill/

              The inflation-adjusted figures are from the BLS’s CPI inflation calculator. Google that if you’re not too fucking busy changing out your colostomy bag. The math is something you’d remember if you weren’t so fucking old.

            2. Here’s one from a woman who found her dad’s birth receipt–$86.33, or $844 in inflation-adjusted dollars.

              http://www.workingmomsagainstg…..y-in-1950/

              Got any counter-evidence that it was comparable to today’s average cost? Fuckin’ LOL at you thinking that Tony’s making a monkey out of anyone other than someone who can’t do basic math.

              1. MY STALKER IS BACK!! Red Rocks exposed as a liar AGAIN!

                It’s right here, dumbshit–Santa Monica Hospital, 1952

                THIS bullshit is proven WITHOUT clicking his link!!! OMG

                http://charleshughsmith.blogsp…..-back.html

                (laughing) Can everyone see it says a BLOG, by someone named Charles Hugh Smith? (hahaha)

                NOT A HOSPITAL., Click his link and it’s a POLITICAL OPINION BLOG .,… by ANOTHER wacko … proving again how he’s EAGER to be brainwashed. And LIE THROUGH HIS TEETH,

                Here’s one from CNN that lists a birth that cost $70–or $756 inflation-adjusted.

                Do you know what a copay is? I was born 6 years earlier and it was INSURED, I know because it was my Dad’s ethnic lodge … at a time when most health coverage was provided by ethnic and fraternal lodges.

                Here’s one from a woman who found her dad’s birth receipt–$86.33, or $844 in inflation-adjusted dollars.

                Like you, she’s too fucking stupid to know if it was a copay!!!

                Got any counter-evidence that it was comparable to today’s average cost?

                Do you know what a co-pay is, chump? Where’s your proof that it wasn’t?

                Why does this feelllike I’m, kicking a cripple? NINE fuckups — seven of them also stupid.

                Will there be TEN from the aggressor/thug?
                Or more EGREGIOUS bullshit like the phony hospital????
                He’s WAY out of his league!!!!

                (walks away in pity)

                1. NOT A HOSPITAL., Click his link and it’s a POLITICAL OPINION BLOG .,… by ANOTHER wacko … proving again how he’s EAGER to be brainwashed. And LIE THROUGH HIS TEETH,

                  You did see it was the price list from the hospital, right, you moron?

                  Do you know what a copay is? I was born 6 years earlier and it was INSURED, I know because it was my Dad’s ethnic lodge … at a time when most health coverage was provided by ethnic and fraternal lodges.

                  Here Mikey states that the link was a talking about a copay, without evidence that this was the case. BUSTED IN A LIE, MIKEY!

                  Like you, she’s too fucking stupid to know if it was a copay!!!

                  Did you actually see the fucking receipt from her dad’s birth cost, Kreskin, or were you using the Force? Unless you have a copy of the rest of the bill, you’re just blowing smoke.

                  Mikey forced to lie and extrapolate because three different links proved he was wrong, and can’t do basic math. Sad!

                  1. You did see it was the price list from the hospital, right, you moron?

                    Not what you said, dumbass.
                    STILL a partisan political website, making you just another hack,.

                    Still confused? That’s like citing an atheist website on Rick Santorum.
                    But I’m the moron. (snort)

                    Oh yeah, I’ve already exposed your total ignorance of heath insurance at the time.
                    (laughing)

                    1. Not what you said, dumbass.

                      That’s exactly what I said, dumbass.

                      Oh yeah, I’ve already exposed your total ignorance of heath insurance at the time.
                      (laughing)

                      Can’t prove the prices were copay prices, Mikey lies and blows smoke again.

            3. Here, I’ll post the data from above since you’re too fucking lazy to read through a thread:

              “”Private Rooms, starting at $19.00”
              “Obstetrical Service Cost, $30.00”
              “Care of the baby in the regular nursery will be charged $6.00 a day while the mother is in the hospital.”

              $80 (birth plus two days in the room/nursery, since you’re mathematically challenged) in 1952 is $727, inflation-adjusted.

              From WebMD: “The costs of childbirth can be steep. The charge for an uncomplicated cesarean section was about $15,800 in 2008. An uncomplicated vaginal birth cost about $9,600, government data show.” We were charged $10K a piece for our kids who were born in 2013 and 2015. The two-day hospital stay for the last one was $15K. That’s $25K for one kid.

              $727/$25,000 is 2.9%. So I was wrong initially, the cost disparity is actually worse.

              How does it feel to be completely incapable of doing 5th-grade math and basic research?”

              1. (yawn) Co-pays

                1. (yawn) Assumptions not in evidence.

                  1. ONE MORE TIME: My stalker needs “evidence” that health insurance was well established at the time. … AFTER CITING “EVIDENCE” FROM A PARTISAN POLITICAL WEBSITE AS FACT!!!

                    (yawn) Assumptions not in evidence.

                    Keep making a public fool of yourself.

                    (posted in defense of REPEATED unprovoked aggressions)

                    1. ONE MORE TIME: My stalker needs “evidence” that health insurance was well established at the time. … AFTER CITING “EVIDENCE” FROM A PARTISAN POLITICAL WEBSITE AS FACT!!

                      Mikey’s so triggered he’s burning enough strawmen that NASA can spot them by satellite.
                      Where’s your proof those listed prices were co-pay prices, dumbass?

              2. Okay, I’ve let you hang yourself, Red Rocks, Time to pull the plug on your stupidity..

                Funny how much cheaper everything actually is when people are forced to use cash.

                Funny that you’re stupid enough to believe that.

                EDUCATED people know that health care became a tax-free benefit in 1943. Plus wartime price controls did not apply to benefits.

                I’ll go slowly. Pay attention this time.

                Because of price controls, employers were forbidden from competing for labor with higher wages. So health insurance became the only way to attract and keep workers. If you understood markets, you’d know that health insurance spread quite rapidly in what we call a competitive labor market, And as I said, my 1941 birth was insured. What people paid cash for was INSURANCE, trashmouth In most cases it was to their ethnic or fraternal lodge, which were still quite common. My dad described standing in line every Friday at his lodge to pay his premium — to a volunteer.

                Since you have no clue about the insurance market then, it’s safe to assume all those folks who found their own birth bill, or a parent’s are equally ignorant.

                And, of course, you lied through your teeth about the Santa Monica Hospital … PLUS 1952 is nearly 10 years after the explosion of health insurance.

                And as long as you continue your vicious aggression, I shall continue making a public ass of you.

                You fucked up YUGE. Get over it, sonny,.

                1. EDUCATED people know that health care became a tax-free benefit in 1943. Plus wartime price controls did not apply to benefits.

                  Price controls ended in 1946.

                  And, of course, you lied through your teeth about the Santa Monica Hospital … PLUS 1952 is nearly 10 years after the explosion of health insurance.

                  The price list was from the Santa Monica Hospital in 1952, and you have no proof that those were “copay” prices rather than the charged prices. Provide the actual evidence that these were copay prices (that is, the charged price and the copay price side-by-side) or shut the fuck up.

                  1. NEVER EXPOSE A PSYCHO LIAR. HE GETS CRAZIER EVER TIME.
                    WATCH;

                    EDUCATED people know that health care became a tax-free benefit in 1943. Plus wartime price controls did not apply to benefits.

                    Price controls ended in 1946.

                    (sigh) Health insurance remained tax-free.

                    The price list was from the Santa Monica Hospital in 1952,

                    (jumping up and down with glee) PROVE IT.

                    Now it’s MY job to prove him wrong …not his job to support his data (which his bogus source never supports_

                    and you have no proof that those were “copay” prices rather than the charged prices. Provide the actual evidence that these were copay prices (that is, the charged price and the copay price side-by-side)

                    (even harder)He cites a printed list of amounts — on bills he never saw — from a partisan website THAT PROVIDES NO SOURCE (naming a hospital is not a source)
                    Does not know how health care is billed. (Doe his healthcare ignorance mean he lives with his parents on their insurance?)

                    or shut the fuck up.

                    YOU attack I defend. Am I not PC?
                    Healthcare wasn’t billed that way. He demands proof for HIS argument, for which he provided NOTHING

                    It is ALSO my fault that he’s so easily manipulated by wacko websites????
                    Is he also a birher?

                    1. (jumping up and down with glee) PROVE IT.

                      I did, dummy–in three different links. Just because you’re too prideful to admit you’re too stupid to understand the difference between a co-pay and the listed cost of a service doesn’t mean the information was inaccurate.

                      (even harder)He cites a printed list of amounts — on bills he never saw — from a partisan website THAT PROVIDES NO SOURCE (naming a hospital is not a source)
                      Does not know how health care is billed. (Doe his healthcare ignorance mean he lives with his parents on their insurance?)

                      He states the prices listed in all three links were copay prices–on bills he never saw–because his daddy stood in line to pay health insurance premiums. Doesn’t seem to understand the distinction between the billed cost of a normal procedure and what the insurance-holder’s copay is, and can’t prove that the $80 total was a copay price.

                      Healthcare wasn’t billed that way. He demands proof for HIS argument, for which he provided NOTHING

                      People stopped paying cash for healthcare completely after 1942? Now you really have been caught in a lie.

      3. And there have always been charitable/semi-charitable clinics, doctors, and hospitals. Some people will put in the effort without demanding the “going rate” in compensation. If you don’t have the money, can’t find someone willing to front the money, and otherwise are unprepared to pay for what you demand, then you are left to relying on the charity of others. There are many ways to avoid finding yourself there, but no one should be forced to work or to accept less than what their skills, training, and experience commands just because you demand it.

        1. And yet more magic.

          1. What magic?

            People die in NHS lines. Where’s the magic there?

            1. People die in lots of places. The overall outcomes are better in places with universal systems, if you’re even remotely interested in being honest about anything. What’s magic is the idea that charity will lead to universal access, because if that were possible it would have happened before anyone needed to invent government programs.

              1. There is no universal access. Dying while waiting in a line is a failure of access.

                1. Dying while waiting in a line is a failure of access.

                  It’s also a form of rationing. Typical when there is a shortage.

                  1. You can’t ration other people’s volition.

              2. “What’s magic is the idea that charity will lead to universal access”
                No, charity covers those who don’t “access” healthcare on their own fucking dime. The prog speak is strong with this one.

              3. The overall outcomes are better in places with universal systems,

                Really?

                Do provide a link.

              4. The overall outcomes are better in places with universal systems, if you’re even remotely interested in being honest about anything.

                Not if you use an honest metric, like cancer survival rates, as opposed to life expectancy, which is heavily influenced by lifestyle factors.

              5. And where are these universal systems?

                Among the OECD countries Canada and Taiwan have single payer, England has fully socialized care, and everyone else has some variety of cost sharing system with the US ranking at about the 65th percentile for the ratio of expenses paid for by the government (and that was pre-obamacare).

                By any meaningful definition the US has had universal health care since the late 80’s at least

                1. You’ve been SO brainwashed.

                  Canada’s medicare was ruled an unconstitutional threat to human life, citing all the Canadians dying in waiting lists of a year or more. It took court order FORCING them to increase spending. In the 1950s,. my dad was cured of colon cancer — which Canada was not even testing for in 2006!

                  England? OMG Their own NHS reported hundreds of patients wheeled into empty rooms where they died, many in their own feces … caused by funding cuts to nurses.

                  England’s death rate is 45% higher than ours … in hospitals! …. per their own NHS. Proof

                  Political healthcare means betting your life that politicians … facing tight budgets … will INCREASE OUR TAXES instead of cutting benefits. (lol)

                  Pre-Obamacare, 12 million Americans, 1/4 our uninsured were Medicaid/CHIP eligibles who had never enrolled No doctors would take them for as little as $17 per visit. Medicaid’s uninsured rate was HIGHER than the private market! (18.8% vs 16.3%)

                  Medicaid is a guaranteed right for low-income Americans but, in the entire population, Medicaid eligibles were THE most likely to die uninsured! Proof

                  http://politicaltolerants.com/…..index.html

                  Medicaid is tragically underfunded, but Medicare has over $40 trillion in unfunded promises. WHY? Seniors vote, Poor people do not. Political healthcare.

              6. Yeah, like the VA! Oh…

            2. At least they had “access”!

              1. No, they didn’t. That’s the lie.

                1. The lie is that a market system is better merely because people die elsewhere.

                  1. The lie is that a market system is better merely because people die elsewhere.

                    A market system provides exactly as much healthcare as you can afford and are willing to pay for.

                    That is it and nothing more.

                    The difference in measured outcomes can be explained by many different factors, of which the method of paying/provisioning is only one. For example, most countries with better infant mortality rates have different demographics. Most countries with lower rates of heart disease have lower obesity rates. Etc.

                    1. most countries with better infant mortality rates have different demographics

                      As well as different methodologies for counting them, such as: not counting them.

                    2. As well as different methodologies for counting them, such as: not counting them.

                      But the noble government would never try to hide embarrassing statistics! They have the best of intentions!

                    3. And Diet. which is kind of important. There are, for instance, some major differences between cultures that eat a lot of red meat versus them that eats a lot of fish. There are some particularly interesting differences between cultures that eat whale flesh and them that don’t.

                  2. Tony|10.4.16 @ 12:53PM|#
                    “The lie is that a market system is better merely because people die elsewhere.”

                    Look! Tony can make up lefty lies!

                    1. Look! Tony can make up lefty parrot lies!

                      FTFY

                2. They had access to the waiting line.

                  Technically, that’s access. And technically correct is the best kind of correct.

            3. The magic is believing that you can use force to achieve the same results you get when people do things voluntarily.

          2. And yet more stupidity.
            What a guy!

          3. I had no idea the Shriner’s hospitals we’re fueled by magic. I guess it’s the same magic that shrunk those cars down for those old guys to ride in parades.

            1. And that Ronald McDonald House place, that is totally mythical, only exists in stories

        2. It’s almost as if you’re trying to confirm the point (that you guys have no serious proposal for universal healthcare).

          1. There is no such thing as universal healthcare. There is single-payer and single-provider and both provide some healthcare services to some people.

            Universal healthcare would require infinite resources.

              1. Now, who’s relying on magic?

                1. But socialist magic is the good magic, not like the bad free market magic. Just look how magical Venezuela and Cuba are!

              2. “Oh please.”

                Yeah, don’t pester Tony with facts, for pete’s sake!

                1. Tony the leech thinks he has a right to your paycheck, anything else is just not fair!

                  1. Tony the leech thinks he has a right to your paycheck, anything else is just not fair!

                    Well, yeah. Not giving is taking, so if you’re not giving to him then you’re taking from him. That and not taking is giving. So whatever isn’t taken away from you is given to you (and taken from him).

                    Heads he wins, tails you lose.

            1. Tony, there was somewhere around 250,000 primary care doctors in the United States of America to service 350 million people.

              How is this not a finite resource?

              If you want to expand access you would need to expand the ‘supply’ of healthcare to bend the cost curve towards affordable, yet everything the government does causes fewer people to enter the field thus bending the curve in the opposite direction.

              Do you know anything Tony? I mean, anything at all? I know you feel things, and that feels a lot like knowing I imagine, but wouldn’t it be nice to actually have reasons to believe the things you believe? Just once?

              1. I didn’t say it was an infinite resource. Are you aware that the rest of the world exists and that it has tried various healthcare systems?

                1. Are you aware that nowhere in the world has eliminated waiting lines for healthcare?

                  1. Are you aware that nowhere in the world has eliminated waiting lines for healthcare?

                    Tony doesn’t mind waiting lines. He minds that the time people spend in them is based upon ability to pay instead of politics.

                  2. Waiting lines? Really?

                2. Are you aware that the rest of the world exists and that it has tried various healthcare systems?

                  Are you aware that people travel from all corners of the globe to get medical treatment in the USA?

                  Golly, I wonder why…. Could it be that the equality you seek is the lowest common denominator?

                  1. Are you aware that people travel from all corners of the globe to get medical treatment in the USA?

                    Well, that’s probably not for much longer.

                3. Yes, and all of them are in a slow decline of failure if you bother to actually look at them instead of mindlessly saying they are somehow successful.

                4. I am absolutely aware that the entire rest of the world has finite resources and thus no country has universal healthcare. They have single-payer or single-provider or some hybrid system. Which is exactly what I said.

                  The single payer only has so much money; the single provider only has so many doctors/hospitals/nurses/machines that go “ping”. Once they run out, you have no access.

                  1. No, you just force more people to become dedicated healers at gunpoint.

          2. “Government is the great fiction where everyone endeavors to live at the expense of everyone else.”
            -Bastiat

            Universal healthcare is the great fiction where everyone gets free healthcare and no one pays for it.

            1. Bastiat is irrelevant to modern economics.

              1. Tony is irrelevant to logic and reason.

                1. Understanding Bastiat requires logic and reason, which of course means that Tony cannot comprehend it.

                  1. It requires a serious case of an “it’s so simple it must be true” mental habit.

                    1. Yes, like an elaborate, one might say labyrinthine, system of price-occluding transfer payments. It’s so simple to persuade voters when you subsidize their bad decisions using someone else’s money.

                    2. It requires a serious case of an “it’s so simple it must be true” mental habit.

                      More often than not, the simplest explanation is the correct one.

                    3. No. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about with respect to Bastian, Occam, or anything else.

                    4. ‘It requires a serious case of an “it’s so simple it must be true” mental habit.’

                      yeah, like that stupid general relativity. Einstein was such a simpleton!

              2. The fact that you are too stupid to understand Bastiat doesn’t make his work irrelevant.

              3. Einstein is irrelevant to modern physics.
                – Tony derp

          3. The slave nurse will be in with your shot (of tap water) whenever she gets around to it.
            Here, have shot of Victory Gin.

          4. Universal access already exists in the form of EMTALA and various public accommodations laws. Everything else is just a series of demands that some people be forced to pay for the forseeable consequences of other people’s actions.

            1. The act you cite is actually one of the direct causes of price inflation in healthcare. Because those people don’t pay their bills, it’s passed on to other consumers. This is the type of thing Tony wants more of, only on a grander scale of failure.

          5. Who ever claimed libertarians are for universal healthcare.

            As pointed out above you mean universal insurance, but still point stands.

        3. If they really wanted to make free healthcare (or legal care) work, they’d simply make a dollar for dollar deduction for pro bono work from the tax burden of doctors, hospitals, and lawyers, and people would get to decide whether they would rather pay 39.4% of their earnings to Uncle, or spend 30% of their time on pro bono work, or some balance in between.

    10. Tony lives in an alternate reality where regulatory overhead and crippling of competition has no effect on prices. And prices have no effect on “access”. Just like with birth control, it’s not “accessible” unless it’s free shit.

    11. If your alternative is the Fuck Off and Die Parasite Act, then you don’t get to bitch about Obamacare. No bonus points for magical markets or not having a healthcare access expansion plan at all.

      I believe the proper answer to this is Fuck Off, Slaver. Let me take it a step further. Fuck off and die, Slaver.

      The shit you backed fucked up the healthcare market. It’s not the people who warned your bullshit was going to fuck things up that need to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. It’s the pieces of shit who palmed this garbage off onto the nation.

    12. Markets aren’t magical just because you don’t understand them Tony.

      I do like how you absolutely trust the party that put in place a massive fuck up program to fix their fuck up with another massive fuck up program. Sure, you can say they ‘learned lessons’ but only if you ignore that they were well aware of all the problems from the outset and simply ignored them. Why pay attention to them now, when they’re manifest?

      I can’t think of a word offhand that describes that level of stupid. I’ll just go with Soviet. That seems appropriate.

      1. Like every other liberal I always favored simply expanding the single-payer programs we already have to everyone. It’s the sick copulation between industry and government that people who think you like enabled during the Contract on America that led us to Obamacare.

        1. The Contract for America of 1994 passed the HMO Act of 1973?

          1. ’cause magic time travel!

        2. So I take it you’re completely unaware of the issues inherent with Medicare and Medicaid then. For instance, the fact that if everyone was on those programs there wouldn’t be a single provider in business within the entire confines of the United States.

          But besides that problem, I suppose you’re right. It wouldn’t be so bad, and ultimately we would all have the same access to health care: zero.

          1. So I take it you’re completely unaware of the issues inherent with Medicare and Medicaid then. For instance, the fact that if everyone was on those programs there wouldn’t be a single provider in business within the entire confines of the United States.

            But besides that problem, I suppose you’re right. It wouldn’t be so bad, and ultimately we would all have the same access to health care: zero.

            ftfy

        3. Tony|10.4.16 @ 12:47PM|#
          “Like every other liberal I always favored simply expanding the single-payer programs we already have to everyone.”

          We ALREADY know you’re an ignoramus Tony. You don’t have to prove it every day.

        4. Like every other liberal I always favored simply expanding the single-payer programs we already have to everyone.

          You mean those same programs that now cost over $1 trillion a year and have been expanding in cost at an 8-9% rate since the early 80s?

        5. Like every other liberal I always favored simply expanding the single-payer programs we already have to everyone

          We already have massive deficits. Where is this money going to come from?

          Oh, that’s right. Single-payer means “cost cutting” means drastic rationing. How much “access” do you have to treatment that the bureaucracy decides you aren’t entitled to have, or that the waiting lines prevent you from receiving in a timely fashion?

          1. You’re ignoring the rationing that already takes place in the market. That is, people can’t afford shit, so it is rationed to zero for them.

            Single-payer means economies of scale: universal coverage so largest possible pool, lowest possible administrative costs, largest possible price discounts.

            The US has the most market-driven healthcare system in the advanced world and it costs two or three or five times as much to get the same care as it does in civilized countries. You’d be blaming that on the one variable that is different if you didn’t happen to worship that one variable.

            1. Single-payer means economies of scale: universal coverage so largest possible pool, lowest possible administrative costs, largest possible price discounts.

              Except that when your magical government is involved, you get none of those things.

              1. Single payer means eliminating competition, and as we all know, competition in healthcare raises prices and reduces quality. And it’s the only industry in which that’s true, for some inexplicable reason.

                1. The market mechanism is faulty in healthcare because people are not going to shop around for the most affordable service when they have a freaking heart attack.

            2. Tony|10.4.16 @ 1:02PM|#
              “You’re ignoring the rationing that already takes place in the market. That is, people can’t afford shit, so it is rationed to zero for them.”

              You’re ignoring the emergency room treatment, shitbag. IOWs, you’re lying again.
              How long do you think you can pull that same shtick and not be called on your constant bullshit?

            3. Rationing happens Tony, it must, but the rationing in a national system that you want takes the form of a death panel that decides who lives and dies. No, really, it does. NHS has one, as does every other nationalized system.

              This is a fact inherent with central planning in health care. If you’re ok with it, just say so, but don’t pretend it’s not inherent.

              Unsurprisingly, people with no marketable skills or education are at the literal bottom of the list of people who ‘deserve’ healthcare in such a system.

              So you see, we must institute this system for the poor immediately as they do not deserve to live. Interesting position. Time to move the goal posts Tony.

            4. The US has the most market-driven healthcare system in the advanced world and it costs two or three or five times as much to get the same care as it does in civilized countries.

              In terms of factors driving costs, the U.S. has:

              – the most heavily regulated healthcare industry in the entire world, and
              – the only “advanced” healthcare system where medical providers bear unlimited liability for malpractice

              That whole “epipen monopoly” fiasco? Didn’t happen in Europe, because their drug regulators are not as strict/corrupt as the FDA.

              To the extent aggregate spending per person is more than elsewhere, so fucking what? I don’t pay aggregate costs, I pay individual costs.

            5. “The US has the most market-driven healthcare system in the advanced world and it costs two or three or five times as much to get the same care as it does in civilized countries.”

              The “same care”?
              Sure, that’s the reason all those folks leave the countries with “free” care and come here.

            6. “You’re ignoring the rationing that already takes place in the market.”

              No it doesn’t.

              People voluntarily exercising their unconditional and absolute freedom of contract rights is not rationing.

              It’s only rationing when government force is involved.

            7. I love how market forces become ‘ration’ to prog putzes.

        6. Like every other liberal I always favored simply expanding the single-payer programs we already have to everyone.

          Tell you what, I’ll be happy to support a compromise for you, personally. Tony can get his healthcare through the government. The only caveat is, government healthcare is all you’re allowed to get. VA Hospitals and free clinics for Tony till he passes.

          1. VA Hospitals and free clinics for Tony till he passes.

            Which would be pretty fucking soon under that scenario.

          2. Tony is the sort of person who, if he were Canadian, would be praising the virtues of Canada’s free healthcare while on a trip to the U.S. for a medical procedure.

            He doesn’t expect to be treated like one of the hoi polloi. They’re beneath him. What is of utmost importance is that one group of people Tony doesn’t like is punished to placate another group of people Tony doesn’t like, because the latter are more numerous and Tony is no fool when it comes to getting his own bread buttered.

            1. Let us not forget this is the same handle that seriously proposed that all AGW skeptics should be lined up against a wall and shot.

              1. Tony has also said that he believes the only reason people take care of their kids at all is because the government punishes child neglect.

                Really, he must’ve had a pretty fucked up life, considering how he apparently sees the world. I’d feel sorry for him if he wasn’t so keen on paying it forward.

                1. Tony has also said that he believes the only reason people take care of their kids at all is because the government punishes child neglect.

                  I don’t understand. How did a democratically elected government decide to punish child neglect, if everyone thought it was hunky-dory?

              2. Yeah, but at least in those instances Tony is being honest. That, I don’t mind as much, because at least it’s in good faith even if it’s a call for my execution.

                What really pisses me off are the lies, because it means these people want us to desire the bullet they’ve put our name on. That’s just sick.

        7. Like every other liberal I always favored simply expanding the single-payer programs we already have to everyonebelieve that by ignoring basic economic principles such as scarcity they’ll just go away.

        8. Wait, you’re blaming LIBERTARIANS for Obamacare?? The fucking balls you have, buddy

          1. Thank you, I thought that was rather me-esque of me.

    13. a healthcare access expansion plan

      Everyone has access to healthcare, you moron, just not the GIMMEDATS to get it for “free”.

    14. Tony, baby, you kiddos fucked up and the adults are going to have to roll back your travesty of a program. Shut up and let the adults do the work and perhaps, when you idiots get your hands on the wheel again, we won’t hold it against you. That’s how this works: once in awhile the electorate loses its collective mind and you kiddos get a chance to implement your idiotic proposals based on long-discredited theories. And when they fail as predicted, you spend some time in the corner while your mess gets sorted out. You’re doing yourself no favors by trying to defend yourself. Let it play out.

    15. Leave the histrionic pants shitting to Grayson, Tony.

    16. He’s awoke!

      1. The answer to your question is in this thread

    17. I’m new here, so I could be wrong, but “Tony” seems like an absurdly ignorant person. And possibly a little authoritarian, as well.

      1. That’s some fine understatement there, Schmitty.

      2. He’s wonderful practice for the leftist knuckle draggers you’ll encounter in the wild.

        “Prove your argument without using your bedrock philosophy that has proven and quantifiable results in literally EVERY other industry it’s ‘allowed’ to operate!”

        Oh, you.

      3. You are in possession of a keen grasp of the obvious. Tony is indeed the village idiot.

        -jcr

    18. MEDICAL CARE IS NOT A RIGHT.

      That is all the answer you deserve.

    19. Rent boy, you’re an idiot, and whenever you open your mouth you only make it more obvious. The alternative to socialism isn’t people starving in the streets, its prosperity and a declining cost of goods and services.

      There was a time when medical care was in everyone’s reach in this country. Government colluded with the AMA to fuck that up.

      READ AND LEARN.

      -jcr

  10. He’s up in Athens Ohio right now back pedaling on his last remarks. And O.U. is a progressive strong hold.

  11. “Can’t we just drone him?” [HILLARY!]

    1. “You don’t put a missile into Bill. Bill puts a missile into you.”

  12. Haven’t seen much on the fact that a person with plenty of assets but limited income still qualifies for the subsidy. A nice wrinkle in this convoluted wealth transference system.

  13. you’ve got this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care and then the people who are out there busting it, sometimes 60 hours a week, wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. It’s the craziest thing in the world,” t

    This is why Bill won the presidency before. He knew when to call bullshit and commiserate with the average-mopes that hillary and obama sneer at as “deplorables” and “clingers”, etc.

    He doesn’t try and lipstick someone else’s pig. he kicks it and says, “this is bullshit! LETS GET EM!!!” because he’s a crafty motherfucking snake.

    Or at the least, he had an ability to be able to talk to people about Policy that showed he understood the bullshit in the system, and people’s frustrations with it.

    Hillary, by contrast, says things like “Businesses don’t create jobs!” and “We’ll keep you from being poor by raising the minimum wage”, which makes even the most economically illiterate mook go… “wait a fucking second, that don’t make a lick of sense”.

    1. which makes even the most economically illiterate mook go… “wait a fucking second, that don’t make a lick of sense”.

      Well, except for Tony.

      1. Tony’s the typical “made into a stupid-leftist by college” – to borrow from Reagan = its not so much that he’s ignorant, its that he “knows” so much shit that isn’t true.

      2. “Invincible Ignorance”

    2. Mook.

      Consider me triggered.

      Reason moderators! I’M TRIGGERED.

      How does it work? Do I get a prize or something?

  14. More evidence that Obamacare was never intended to work, but was a ploy for getting the camel’s nose under the tent with making the government dictates over individual health coverge the new legal and political normal. Forcing universal health insurance while massively increasing what must be covered by insurance was always a crazy idea.

    Bill seems to be nudging towards an expansion of the subsidiessence if not an outright conversion to single payer.

  15. “So you’ve got this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care and then the people who are out there busting it, sometimes 60 hours a week, wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. It’s the craziest thing in the world,” the former president said, according to CNN.

    Bzzzzzt. Insurance not same as care.

    1. The people that think these programs are a good idea will literally never understand the distinction.

    2. Yes! No one seems to get this! Insurance is a financial issue. Not a health issue.

    3. And, importantly, insurance isn’t a savings account, nor is it a retirement fund. Just like you don’t use car insurance for things like oil changes or to put a set of spinners on your car, health insurance was intended to pay for emergencies, not routine care. A big reason why health care costs are so high in this country is because people use insurance policies as credit cards that only ever charge them the minimum, and providers bill accordingly. Consumers never see the cost.

  16. But the people that are getting killed in this deal are small business people and individuals who make just a little too much to get any of these subsidies.

    Which lots of people have pointed out. I believe John was the most vocal of us here on how this is really screwing over the middle class.

    1. Good. The middle class needs to feel some heat from this. Implement dumb ideas, get bad results. Maybe let’s not be too hasty to nationalize an industry again.

      1. I think “the middle class” was the segment of the population most opposed to the bill. The welfare class and the limousine liberals were most in favor.

        1. The middle class resisted but ultimately allowed themselves to be persuaded by Obama’s flagrant lies. They may have been Gruberized, but they permitted it. And they should suffer for it. Once bitten twice shy and all that.

        2. Something like 60% or so of the country was against it being passed, according to most polls at the time, but the Democrats rammed it through anyway on a straight party-line vote.

          1. Yet they nominated 2 flavors of authoritarian top men for prez. We get what we deserve, especially the middle income people, since they are such a large voting bloc

  17. This is though tragic for the country, in some ways really entertaining to watch. The critics of this bill have been proven right in every possible way. And it is no longer possible to deny how bad this is. It is obvious the slow motion tragedy that is occurring. Now the people who wrote it and supported it and slandered anyone who questioned or criticized the bill as racists who hated sick people now are faced with the choice of denying the obvious or admitting they were wrong and are guilty of the most epic public policy fuck up in the nation’s history.

    I think the people who think this is going to usher in a call for single payer are wrong because they under estimate the vanity and pig headedness of the media and Democrats. Calling for single payer requires admitting that their historic achievement that was going to ensure Progressive rule for the next generation or more is a complete failure. Yeah, they want single payer but they don’t want to have to admit that.

    This thing is going to play out as political version of the famous Monty Python dead parrot skit. Every time you read a liberal writing about Obamacare think “he is just resting his eyes” and it will make more sense.

    1. And it is no longer possible to deny how bad this is.

      Yet many people still do.

      1. Yes they do. It is no longer possible to believably deny how bad it is. Again, this whole thing is going to play out as one long national dead parrot routine.

        1. See Tony upthread for your dead parrot.

          1. It is just resting its eyes Citizen X. If you were not such a racist who hated Obama, you would see that.

            1. It’s pinin’ for the fjords!

    2. People like Tony denies Obamacare is falling apart but luckily most Americans see through that facade.

    3. . The critics of this bill have been proven right in every possible way.

      LOL! The critics of the bill were totally wrong and the exact reason it failed. That’s why it’s incumbent upon them to fix the system they broke. Obamacare was perfect in every single respect – everybody was going to have so much healthcare they’d get sick of healthcare and it’d only cost a nickel – but those damn racist obstructionists refused to think happy thoughts and that’s the only reason this pig didn’t fly. “Hope and change” is a guaranteed winner, but you gotta hope hard enough to change reality and some of you weren’t doing your part.

      1. If it wasn’t for all of those damned wreckers and saboteurs holding this country back, we could move forward into a better future. Same as it ever was.

        1. Fucking Kulaks!

    4. “Well, we tried it ? and we learned. Our agony took four years, from our first meeting to our last, and it ended the only way it could end: in bankruptcy. At our last meeting, Ivy Starnes was the one who tried to brazen it out. She made a short, nasty, snippy little speech in which she said that the plan had failed because the rest of the country had not accepted it, that a single community could not succeed in the midst of a selfish, greedy world ? and that the plan was a noble ideal, but human nature was not good enough for it. A young boy ? the one who had been punished for giving us a useful idea in our first year ? got up, as we all sat silent, and walked straight to Ivy Starnes on the platform. He said nothing. He spat in her face. That was the end of the noble plan and of the Twentieth Century.”

      1. What is this from?

    5. If you look at what critics said of universal health at the time when it was introduced in Canada, you find they were right.

      And then some.

      1. They always are. It is just bad luck I guess.

      2. I’m sure its a great comfort to the loved ones of Canadians who die waiting to see a doctor to know that at least nobody admitted to profiting from the medicine they weren’t provided.

        -jcr

    6. Just based on my experiences and observations up here. You go single payer and innovation and efficiency will go out the window. Access and shortages (as a result of government mismanagement – and believe you me it’s real) will increase. You will go from patient-centric services to cost-centric.

      Sure, you can make it ‘work’ but relative to cost to quality, only a true, die in the wool moonbat would think they’re getting quality care.

      Oh. And expect the slow degradation of hospitals.

      1. See, also, our own little lab experiment with government single-payer – the VA system.

    7. guilty of the most epic public policy fuck up in the nation’s history.

      That’s highly debatable. Maybe if you exclude the Wilson and Roosevelt eras entirely, the Great Society, the 1965 Ted Kennedy immigration bill, the Civil Rights Act, the 16th and 17th Amendments.

    8. And it is no longer possible to deny how bad this is.

      Sure it is. People who champion this bill didn’t give two shits about irrelevant facts such as, you know, the contents. Why should they start now?

  18. I certainly agree that the law is the complete failure that many of us predicted years ago. But I suspect that Bill’s criticism has more to do with sticking it to Obama a little bit than any principled stand. They are the only Democratic presidents to win and serve two full terms in their own right since FDR. And they both have massive egos. Bill probably figures his legacy will outshine Obama’s, so reminding voters that Obama’s signature policy achievement is a disaster only helps differentiate them.

  19. Trump doesn’t even have a plan!

    I’ve run rings around you, logically.

  20. “The current system works fine if you’re eligible for Medicaid, if you’re a lower-income working person, if you’re already on Medicare, or if you get enough subsidies on a modest income that you can afford your health care,”

    So he’s saying the system works fine as long as somebody else is paying for it. Was Bill wearing his Captain Obvious uniform when he came up with this remarkable insight? Or was this preparatory to announcing a Trump-like plan whereby we all get free healthcare and Mexico’s going to pay for it?

    Not that I haven’t seen plenty of people arguing that Medicare/Medicare works fine so why not just fix the healthcare system by expanding it so everybody’s eligible. You’re too stupid to live if you don’t understand that M/M only works fine because there’s way more people paying in than getting anything out. (And even then it ain’t working “fine”.) We can’t all live at each other’s expense and that’s a mathematical fact no matter how much your feels suggest it should be otherwise.

    1. They also never mention the massive amount of money medicare costs. Sure it works. For that kind of money it ought to work.

      The other thing they never seem to understand is that the point of medicare was to supplement the private insurance system by covering old people. Old people are bad risks and thus are likely to be unable to afford insurance and are also likely to need it. Medicare is a very expensive stop gap to deal with the problem that medical insurance often is affordable just so long as you don’t need it. It was not intended and could never function as anything beyond that. Indeed, it is going to go broke even trying to do that.

    2. “So he’s saying the system works fine as long as somebody else is paying for it.”

      Pretty sure Maggie Thacher had Bill’s (and Tony’s) number on this issue.

      1. Of course Tony fails to understand that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.

        1. nearly $20 trillion and still counting

  21. Describing the incentives the law creates for insurers to jack up health insurance rates, he said that, “It doesn’t make sense. The insurance model doesn’t work here.”

    Fuck off, Bill.

    1. The insurance model doesn’t work here

      In one sense, he’s right. Obamacare imposed the same requirements that have lead to death spirals in the past (no medical underwriting, community rating). You cannot run an insurance model under those requirements.

  22. What do people think about a single payer, catastrophic only plan? Base the premiums and out of pocket maximums on annual income, and deregulate everything else. This way no one can technically go bankrupt due to medical costs, and the vast majority of healthcare costs and decisions are borne by individuals.

    1. Or how about get rid of government mandates for insurance policies and just let people buy catastrophic only plans on their own, and let insurance companies price plans accordingly.

    2. This way no one can technically go bankrupt due to medical costs…

      That’s not entirely accurate, I think, although I guess it depends on your definition of catastrophic. Is chronic leukemia catastrophic? What about HIV? If so, then costs for catastrophic care will be sky-high since those are long-term, expensive treatments. If not, if it’s only short-term high-cost care, then those could easily bankrupt someone who doesn’t quite qualify for Medicare/Medicaid but can’t afford a decent insurance plan. Just sayin’.

      Otherwise, it’s a better idea than what we’ve got, but I’d still go further and deregulate the whole damn thing. If you want to reduce health care costs (which should be the real goal if expanding access to lower income patients is the objective) then eliminating the middle man in the transaction is the best way to do it.

  23. I law does not create incentives for insurance companies to raise rates. That incentive is already there. They are for profit organizations. The law creates the necessity for insurance companies to raise rates. They are not raising rates for fun or because the law is rewarding them for doing so. They are raising rates because the law requires them to provide coverage for things most people don’t want but cost a lot of money, to provide coverage for people who are already sick and about a thousand other things that make no business sense. They are raising rates because that is the only way to pay for what the law requires.

    And the law doesn’t need reform Peter. It will have to be repealed. You do yourself no favors pretending this thing can be fixed.

    1. “They are for profit organizations. ”
      Some are, but many insurance companies are non-profit organizations.

  24. the system works fine as long as somebody else is paying for it.

    Until this happens.

    Then you’re fucked.

  25. I remember explaining to a friend (who is an advocate for single payer) about why health care costs so much and how the government through tax polices, mandates, lack of consumer choice, and subsidies created the perverse incentives that led to our clusterfuck of a health system.

    Without any sort of prompting, my friend said that if it was up to people like me, we would keep our current “free market” health care and let poor people die in the streets. After that, I never discussed politics with my friend again.

    1. During the eppi-pen pricing news-cycle, the local rag trotted out some low-watt-bulb with an MD and quoted him as saying “This (the pricing) is what you get with the free market in pharms!”
      He actually claimed the pharm industry operates in a free market. And this guy is treating sick people!

    2. The thing you never hear from people like your friend is any ideas or even recognition of the need to increase the supply of health care. Even with all of the distortions you mention, one sure way to decrease the price of something is to increase the supply. But never do you hear such people talk about the need to build more medical schools or let more medical professionals immigrate or do things to let pharmacists and nurses provide more care than they currently are.

      Even if they don’t admit it or won’t even admit it to themselves, that to me proves that their concern is about power and not healthcare or anyone’s welfare. They want the government controlling and by extension people they like controlling who gets and does not get healthcare. That is all it is about for Progs.

      1. But never do you hear such people talk about the need to build more medical schools or let more medical professionals immigrate or do things to let pharmacists and nurses provide more care than they currently are.

        And they don’t care that doctors are often unhappy with their profession because of hassles like paperwork and regulation. Gee, maybe it’s not the best idea to make someone’s job harder while insisting you have a right to their services.

  26. The medical, legal, and insurance fields are totally corrupt. Doctors, nurses, and such cost about 10x more than they should because they have monopolies. The whole medical field is about hiding the limited knowledge and are shielded when the screw up because their practices are so secretive. Then there are the insurance companies which spike prices for as much as they possibly can. And finally the legal field handling the lawsuits and such brought on by all the bad doctors. We might as well move to say Cuba or any of the other many countries that have better health care and cost a hundredth of the price. The idea we are now forced to pay for this corruption is beyond belief. So surreal it can’t be fathomed. But then the idea that Clinton and Trump our ahead of Johnson is also just beyond all belief.

    1. We might as well move to say Cuba or any of the other many countries that have better health care and cost a hundredth of the price.

      How good is Cuban health care for people who aren’t named Castro, or have friends who are? Do the political dissidents get good health care in the labor camps?

    2. Their knowledge is also their property. If a company spends millions figuring something out, I have no problem with them keeping that knowledge a trade secret so they can make money on it. That is not corruption. That is commerce.

      The corruption is in the medical licensing laws. We let too few people into medical and nursing and pharmacy schools and restrict what each class of professional can do way too much. Fixing that would greatly increase the supply of heath care and do a lot to reduce its cost.

    3. The medical, legal, and insurance fields are totally corrupt. Doctors, nurses, and such cost about 10x more than they should because they have monopolies.

      Obamacare wasn’t designed to correct this monopolistic behavior, and an American single-payer system won’t either, to be blunt. What would inevitably be implemented would resemble the student loan program, where colleges continue to jack up the cost of tuition because they’re getting that government-subsidized loan cheddar no matter if the student finishes college, ends up a barista with $40K in debt, or drops out completely.

      The government might say, “Hey, you’re going to get this much for your services and nothing else,” and you’d inevitably see a lot of hospitals close up because the dipshit bureaucrats wouldn’t understand the market differences in relative operating costs and would inevitably short the providers (save for any who are well-connected politically to work the system).

      The healthcare cost issue is a problem of scale, not access.

  27. YOU HAVE TO PASS THE BILL TO KNOW WHAT’S IN IT.

    And now you know.

  28. To give you an idea of Kim’s abysmal stupidity, she proposed to help SF’s housing ‘crisis’ by making homes valued at more than (some number she pulled out of her ass) ‘illegal’. She fantasized that this would force the developers to build cheaper housing.

    Excellent! I needed a good laugh.

    1. She’s running for state office now…

      1. That is not funny. That is terrifying that someone could be that stupid and attract followers.

        1. John,
          There are people in SF who admit that rent control is taking from the building owners, but they defend it because “it works”.
          Which, of course, it doesn’t. So they are wrong from principle, wrong from utility, and stupid besides.
          Rent control is now spreading, so let’s not get too provincial here..

          1. From their perspective it does “work”. They want acceptable people living in those places. They don’t want some tacky rich person getting to live there because they have more money.

            Socialism is about replacing the influence of money with political influence. If you look hard at a socialist, you will almost always find someone butt hurt that the wrong people are getting ahead just because they make money.

    2. I remember someone in my health economics class asked, “Why are hamburgers cheaper than salads? Why does the government allow this?”

      My Professor responded with,” Government does not set food prices.”

      This was a 300 level economics class.

      1. Why are hamburgers cheaper than salads?

        I’m just spitballing here, but maybe in part because you don’t cook a salad and thus have to spend a lot more time and effort keeping the ingredients fresh and safe to eat?

        Alternatively, go to some place where salads are cheaper than hamburgers and let us know what happens.

        1. People who buy salads are often social signaling about how health conscious they are, so the price is less of an issue for them. Savvy businesses take advantage of this by charging them more.

          1. John Mackey has made a fortune from this.

      2. Burgers are cheaper than salads?

        In my years of pubcrawling I know this to be false.

        1. It depends on what is in or on the salad.

        2. Right? Unless you’re adding some meat to that shit, the salad is at least the same price if not cheaper.

      3. Government does not set food prices.”

        Well, they kinda do. You know, price supports for sugar and other farm products.

      4. BECAUSE YOU DON’T WIN FRIENDS WITH SALAD.

      5. Why are hamburgers cheaper than salads?

        Are they? In my experience, a burger with a side, and a “meal” salad cost about the same most places.

        Here’s a menu from a schmancy Tucson burger joint:

        http://www.zinburgeraz.com/wp-…..16_WEB.pdf

        Burgers run $10 – 12. Salads run . . . $8.50 – $12. Not counting the highest end options for either.

        1. It’s true. An Italian or Greek salad can easily run you $11 to $16 up here.

      6. For McDonald’s:

        http://www.foodmenuprice.com/menu/mcdonalds/

        Burgers run $2.00 – $4.50. Salads from $4.50 – $4.80. At McDonald’s, I suppose they have a point.

  29. I wonder when Tony will come back to reply to every comment and declare victory when no one responds because the thread is dead. Tonight? Tomorrow? Next week?

    1. Why would he need to even post. We know what he thinks, the ACA is running like a finely tuned machine.

    2. Hihn is probably the only one who’s a more prolific corpse-thread fucker than Tony.

      1. To be fair, decrepit old things are right in Hihn’s age bracket.

        1. Hihn jams it up your ass … sideways …AGAIN

          https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6446181

          And will be laughing at you sheeple for hours … bBecause you were suckered by Suderman’s latest bullshit. And his own link proves it!

          (walks away laughing)

          1. Please, Hihn, the only thing you’re jamming up asses is the rotten cucumber your nurse has to extract from yours every day.

            (walks away strutting)

            1. Red Rock REFUSES to click the link, which indeed jams it up his ass. DARE to see the proof. (snicker)

              https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6446181

              (walks away strutting)

              (laughing harder at the cyber-bully)

              1. No one’s interested in your anal fixation, freako.

                ::Complains that libertarians not offering an alternative::
                ::Offers no alternative::

                (cartwheels away guffawing)

                1. Now FIVE fuckups by Red Rocks!!!!!

                  :Complains that libertarians not offering an alternative::
                  ::Offers no alternative:

                  (sneer)

                  https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6447121

                  Most of it was published over 20 years ago, chump

                  http://www.libertyissues.com/archive.htm

                  WHERE IS THE LIBERTARIAN SOLUTION, SLUGGO?

                  Will he make it SIX fuckups?

                  (cartwheels away guffawing)

                  (pees pants from laughing at the bully)

                  (My tone and boldface in defense of repeated aggression and thuggery)

                  1. (pees pants)

                    AKA, any day of Michael’s week that ends in “day”

                    WHERE IS THE LIBERTARIAN SOLUTION, SLUGGO?

                    Are you serious? What libertarian wouldn’t prefer a cash-dominant healthcare system where people could pay for procedures out of pocket? You’re acting like you’re the only one who ever thought of this.

                    Funny how Designate had to call you out for you to finally put something up other than your usual mewling.

                    1. ANOTHER blatant lie by my serial stalker. He didn’t call me out, he asked. And I’ll prove ANOTHER psycho lie by you/.

                      https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6447121

                      Because you fucked up by saying I had no alternative, And because of aggressors like you, I intentionally linked to my original publication for most of it .. over 20 years ago. I guess you missed that part. (smirk)

                      For the record, Red Rocks launched his first UNPROVOKED AGGRESSION here,

                      https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6446524

                      I humiliated him (go look), so he began stalking me all over the page … and I keep proving him a liar, as I did here. He’s like Trump that way.

                      WHERE IS THE LIBERTARIAN SOLUTION, SLUGGO?

                      Are you serious?

                      Are YOU serious. You have NO SOLUTION!!!! OMG

                      What libertarian wouldn’t prefer a cash-dominant healthcare system where people could pay for procedures out of pocket?

                      ELIMINATING INSURANCE???

                      You’re acting like you’re the only one who ever thought of this.

                      (lol) I’m STILL the only one who spelled it out! TWENTY YEARS AGO!!
                      WHERE’S THE LIBERTARIAN SOLUTION SLUGGO? (laughing)

                      What libertarians prefer is NOT a solution, just more of your brain farts..
                      Keep making a public ass of yourself, my stalking cyber-bully

                    2. I’m so wet now.

                    3. ANOTHER blatant lie by my serial stalker.

                      ::Cant stop himself from responding…and pissing his pants::

                      Why do you love stalking me so much, Mikey?

                      I humiliated him (go look), so he began stalking me all over the page

                      ::Stalks Red Rocks all over the page, shits pants::

                      Keep making a public ass of yourself

                      Tell us what the average cost of a normal live birth in the 1950s was, Mikey.

                    4. He launched unprovoked aggression here:
                      https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6445590

                      Tell us what the average cost of a normal live birth in the 1950s was, Mikey.

                      That’s your job. You’ve already publicly humiliated yourself .. too ignorant toi know health insurance was quite common in 1952,

                      And now you even TALK like a 12-year old.

                      The defense rests. Your lies and bullying are more than sufficient on this page alone

                      (My tone and boldface AGAIN in defense of repeated aggression by an obsessed bully)

                    5. That’s your job. You’ve already publicly humiliated yourself .. too ignorant toi know health insurance was quite common in 1952,

                      Uh, I pointed out the cost of a normal live birth in 1952 in comparison to one in 2015, you moron. The cost of insurance was irrelevant to that listed (which you tried to extrapolate with price controls, which ended in 1946), and then you doubled down and claimed all the bills from the links I posted were “copays”–without any proof that those were copay prices.

                      Just because you’re stupid enough to believe that all healthcare transactions were conducted with insurance during this period doesn’t mean the prices were inaccurate.

                      Your lies and bullying are more than sufficient on this page alone

                      Jesus, you project more than that fat fuck Trigglypuff.

    3. Usually at about 4:30 he’ll start commenting on articles posted 3 hours earlier. He still wants to get one or two responses so it looks like he won something.

      1. Free Society (sic)
        he’ll start commenting on articles posted 3 hours earlier

        (snicker) What’s the time limit, chump?
        Hihn jams it up your ass … sideways …AGAIN
        https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6446181

        And will be laughing at you sheeple for hours … because your cult was suckered by Suderman’s latest bullshit, ALSO AGAIN. And his own link proves it!

        (walks away laughing)

        1. This genius came out of my vagina.

          1. THAT genius acts like a 12-year-old.
            And probably giggled.
            LOVE IT!

            1. I love you, too. Come give mama a kiss.

              1. Umm, what I love is you acting like a 12-year-old taunter.
                I forgot to dumb it down.
                Is it even possible to be attacked by a psycho …when creating an identity to assault somebody exposes him or her as a psycho bully?

  30. “So you’ve got this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care…”

    No, more people have health INSURANCE. Fewer people have HEALTH CARE. These are two very different things.

    1. It’s a complete lie to say 25 million MORE people had health insurance after O-care than before.

  31. It’s like Tony’s not even trying today. Disappointing stuff.

    1. There is always Micheal Hihn on the Johnson thread. Go read that and then come back. Tony will seem downright enlightened by comparison.

      1. Ugh, I unhid his comments and read them. That was dumb.

        What’s with that guy? He’s like severely emotionally scarred or something. I can’t even really tell what his objective is or what his perspective is. He’s on about some survey where people don’t like the LP or something, then he’s on about how he was elected Pumpaloosa County Dog Catcher on the LP ticket in ’74 or whatever and so he’s the only true libertarian, then he’s like “Rand Paul is the devil!”

        There’s got to be a really interesting story there, I just can’t be assed to actually engage with the dude.

        1. I don’t get it either. Tony is a troll but at least he makes a point. I have no idea what Hihn’s point is, ever.

          1. Like Trueman; he gets to see his name on the screen.

          2. John
            I have no idea what Hihn’s point is, ever.

            To see how retarded John is, scroll down just a hair and see what he cannot grasp. And check my source!

            Then see this link for how easily cult libertarians can be manipulated
            https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6446181

            (flush)

        2. . He’s on about some survey where people don’t like the LP or something,

          That’s Cato, not me, liar. One more time for the cult:

          Cato commissioned a Brand Preference survey, which measures whether a brand enhances or detracts from the product or service, which Cato defined as – fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Cato found 59% would self-define with “libertarian views”

          Then the important part. The brand:. This by David Boaz

          Only 9% of voters with libertarian views would identify themselves as ‘libertarian.’

          Do the math, Sluggo. The libertarian brand is rejected by 91% of libertarians. Libertarian views HATE the ideology. Am I going too fast, Slick?

          On the averages, 40,000-50,000 of THOSE (Nolan) libertarians are in elected local office.

          THINK. Who has been causing the growing acceptance of (supposedly) libertarian ideas … 59% of Americans with 40,000-50,000 involved in their communities? Or 5.3% who mostly INSULT the 54%, have achieved NOTHING, and don’t even want to.

          Anyone wondering who’s full of shit is invited to visit Cato’s website, scroll down 2/3 to “How libertarians see themselves.” Then join me in ridiculing the goobers. (snort)

          (walks away laughing at the sheeple)

          1. If I post a bunch of bolded gobbledy-gook people won’t think I’m a an unHihnged headcase!!

            (walks on two hands snorting)

            1. Red Rocks Dickin Bimbos made an ass of himself AGAIN!
              “If I post a bunch of bolded gobbledy-gook people won’t think I’m a an unHihnged headcase!!”

              (laughing harder) That’s because YOU don’t link to any proof like I did .. twice in this sub-thread alone sol I’ve made an ass of you twice now. Try for three?

              (For any other retarded bullies … providing PROOF is the difference between a thinker and a cyber-bully who does name-calling like a 12-year-old) (snicker)

              Repeat: this one shows how easily their cult can be manipulated and eager to be so.
              https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6446181

              (walks on two hands snorting)

              no further comment needed.

              1. MOAR BOLDED WORDS SHOW HOW SERIOUS I AM AND NOT AT ALL A NONSENSE SPEWING NUTCASE

                (Pirouettes away tittering)

                1. (laughing) No, dumbass .. I AGAIN provided a link to proof !! While you continue screeching.
                  But your world record fuckup is here:

                  https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6447211

                  (bullies don’t care if they make asses of themselves — now seven times. For them it’s all about aggression and personal attacks)

                  1. (laughing) No, dumbass .. I AGAIN provided a link to proof !! While you continue screeching.

                    ::continues screeching with bolded text::
                    ::tries to pretend he didn’t offer a solution until he was called out on it::

                    (tiptoes away, snickering)

                    1. ::tries to pretend he didn’t offer a solution until he was called out on it::

                      You said I didn’t have one … were humiliated … change your assault.
                      One more time for the morally impaired: My solution was published over 20 years ago.. I linked to it. You said I didn’t have one … 20 years later (snort)

                      Also a repeat. I was NOT “called out.” He asked if I had a solution. Here AGAIN proof you’re a liar,.

                      https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6447121

                      My stalker now attacks with a new alias, my Mom, who’s DEAD you pathetic piece of shit.

                    2. My stalker now attacks with a new alias, my Mom, who’s DEAD you pathetic piece of shit.

                      Sorry, Mike, I don’t need to make up sock-puppet accounts to be a pain in your ass. I have two little kids, you think I’m going to be up at the hours “Michael Hihn’s Mom” is posting just to troll you like that? Get over yourself.

                  2. My son is a genius.

                    1. True.
                      Not like that dumb fuckwad, Red Rocks (the aggressor/bully/stalker)

                    2. I just peed a little.

          2. I seem to recall a scientologit who had that habit of including stage directions in parenthesis in his unhinged rants.

            -jcr

  32. “So you’ve got this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care and then the people who are out there busting it, sometimes 60 hours a week, wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. It’s the craziest thing in the world,” the former president said, according to CNN.”

    Oh no Bill, it’s much, much worse than that. Even when we do have coverage we can’t get services because nobody will accept that coverage. Have insurance that guarantees coverage for orthopedic surgeons, great, but there aren’t any orthopedic surgeons in network who will accept it. Have an endocrinologist who’s a quack and want to change, tough shit, the quack is the only in network provider who accepts the policy. Want to find a plan that covers Mom’s doctors, Dad’s doctors and the kid’s doctors, good fucking luck, somebody (usually Dad) get fucked with no doctor. Want to pay cash, hell no, fuck you. Since you have Obama’s wonderful plan rather than the shitty bad plan you had before his almighty benevolence booted your ass off it, since you have that, it’s illegal for your doctor to accept your cash. So ya, Bill, Hillary, Barack, Elizabeth, Crazy Joe, etc., etc., etc. Ya, you people can all go fuck yourselves in your self-righteous sanctimonious assholes.

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  34. So we went from “I’m with Her”, To “Stand Together”, to “Fighting For Us”. Shilldabeast’s campaing is getting “progressively” more militant.

    1. What’s next? Shoot The Bastards! Hillary 2016.

  35. Suderman’s is lying. Again.

    Click his link, Watch the video. Clinton is comparing ACA as now constituted, versus people instead buying into Medicare and Medicaid, because …. wait for it … health care is NOT an insurance market like homes and cars. THAT is Clinton’s point. See for yourself.

    So, the “scoop” is that a Democrat says Obamacare is not as good as single payer. (gasp)

    And there’s STILL no libertarian alternative! Oh wait. Medicare vouchers. Umm bring competition ,,,, to the WRONG market — insurers, not healthcare. Can we affect car prices with more competition between GEICO and Allstate? (hahaha)

    For the mindless sheep, adding private insurers is privatization!! It actually adds a costly middle-man to anyone with enough accounting smarts to balance a checkbook.

    This is not Reason as originally founded. Free-market slogans are not liberty.

    And in 2008, Obama said Hillary’s healthcare would fail because the penalty is too low! Precisely what happened. But the libertarian establishment never reported that. It was ONLY in a 2012 ad by …. Gary Johnson.

    1. Wait, I thought you were some big deal libertarian? Do you have an alternative?

      1. Designate
        Wait, I thought you were some big deal libertarian? Do you have an alternative?

        Here’s how easy it is!

        GIVE SENIORS SKIN IN THE GAME in the RIGHT market … providers not insurers. They’ll save more in one year than Cato and the other bureaucrats can save in five.

        1) Given a list of average local reimbursements. Pay them a percentage of the savings from shopping around, (shared between them and lower taxes for their heirs)

        2) Medicare Savings Accounts (optional) to connect seniors with the all the PROVIDERS who give discounts of 50% or more for cash.

        3) Competitive bidding for costly procedures, where prices can vary by over 300% in the same city. Medicare already does local bidding for medical appliances. Tell Cato.

        4) I know WHY we have the world’s highest healthcare costs. We’re the only ones paying $250,000 or more for six months of life. If Cato didn’t have their head up their ass, red flags would have popped when Obama described his grandmother’s costly hip transplant AFTER she was terminal cancer … and died a few months later. Offer CASH for one’s estate, for their heirs, to all seniors who sign a Living Will (optional). Seniors can still change their mind at death’s door, get the surgery but lose the cash. ALL voluntary.

        Like I said, simple for anyone who understands markets. Simply empowering seniors will cause IMMEDIATELY lower prices, Any questions?

        1. Why do you spend less time presenting ideas like this, and more time telling everyone how stupid they are?

          Is it part of your optimum libertarian persuasion technique?

          1. Hihn is correct.

          2. Why do you spend less time presenting ideas like this, and more time telling everyone how stupid they are

            It’s called SELF-DEFENSE … from aggression.
            Anything else?

            1. It’s called screaming like a little girl…because he doesn’t like being contradicted.

              1. MORE aggression.

            2. Yeah.
              Fuck off.

              1. TWO bullies all in a row! Sevo MAY be the craziest. He says if Johnson/Weld had a ab actual policy platform they’d be ….. wait for it … STATISTS!

                https://reason.com/blog/2016/10…..nt_6442132

                Red Rocks. A page search for his handle shows his assaults backfiring almost two dozen times … all stemming from unprovoked aggression … followed by nonstop stalking … with the same aggression we see here.

                1. Mike, I’m in your head 24/7, you little bitch.

        2. That actually sounds pretty reasonable.

          And thanks for not yelling at me or calling me names.

    2. there’s STILL no libertarian alternative!

      Of course there is. Deregulation, competition, and free enterprise.

      -jcr

      1. (laughing) FAIL. You confuse slogans with policies.
        And …. one more time … Cato’s policies FAIL on even that.,
        Thank you for playing.

        1. Have you suffered a head injury?

          -jcr

          1. My son is the truth, the light, and the only path to salvation.

            1. My son is the truth, the light, and the only path to salvation.

              Thanks, whoever you really are. Now we have John Randolph called out as a coward, added to the list. Tribalism. Can’t name what never existed. (lol)

          2. Have you suffered a head injury?

            Name a Cato policy, thug.
            Or be a coward.
            Show us which. I’ll check back.
            (smug)

            1. Randolph FAIL
              A driveby shooting

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  37. Let’s not forget that Bill Clinton set in motion the lowering of mortgage underwriting standards that led to the 2008 crisis.

    “Despite losing the battle to raid pensions to fund affordable housing, the Clinton administration won the war by using Housing and Urban Development quotas and the little-known Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) to force Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and banks to serve government goals. HUD housing quotas ultimately required that 55% of all loans purchased by Fannie and Freddie had to be subprime-type loans. President Clinton’s financial regulators used the CRA to force banks to make subprime loans.”
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/th…..1475445396

    See also Gretchen Morgenson’s book “Reckless Endangerment.”

    Let’s also not forget that Bill is married to Hillary, who wants to be your president.

    1. Even better ir was described in detail at a publication which PREDICTED Clinton’s actions would cause a crash. Wait for it …..

      The New York Times! News Department.
      http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09…..nding.html

      The news pages kept reporting attempts by the Bush Administration to regulate Fannie and Freddie. Several Youtube videos show the hearings … even super Randian Greenspan called for “world class” regulation. They were all SCARED.

      Democrats of course said Republicans were trying to screw poor people.

  38. Now that Bill has spoken, Suderman is resolutely against Obamacare. He just had to figure out what he thought about it.

    1. He’s been against Obamacare all along. But he never understood it.
      I cannot begin to fathom your delusional mind.
      Must be in the Paulista Cult.

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