California, Los Angeles County, Sued Over Their Laws and Policies on Carrying Guns
Lawsuit insists a combination of restrictions against both open and concealed carry of weapons in the state constitute a Second Amendment violation.
A lawsuit was filed this week against California Attorney General Kamala Harris and L.A. County Sheriff James McDonnell in U.S. District Court for the Central District of California, Western Division.

The suit, Flanagan v. Harris, filed on behalf of four Californians with the help of the California Rifle and Pistol Association, asserts that a combination of state laws against open carry of firearms, combined with L.A. County's "state-sanctioned policy that denies law-abiding residents the license required under state law to carry a concealed firearm" violate their Second Amendment rights. The suit also asserts that the citizens' rights under the Equal Protection Clause are being violated because of "ongoing unequal treatment concerning the exercise of Plaintiffs' Second Amendment rights."
The legal and factual background, from the suit:
California…bars ordinary, law-abiding citizens from carrying a firearm for self-defense, regardless of whether the firearm is loaded or unloaded and regardless of whether the firearm is carried in an exposed or concealed manner, in all but extremely limited, remote areas—unless the individual has a license to carry a firearm ("Carry License") issued by the local sheriff or chief of police….
In populous counties like Los Angeles, state law only authorizes the issuance of concealed Carry Licenses, thus completely barring residents of Los Angeles County from openly carrying a firearm for self-defense.
California law affords sheriffs and police chiefs unfettered discretion to determine whether to issue a Carry License to law-abiding citizens seeking to exercise their fundamental rights to bear arms. Defendant [L.A. County Sheriff] McDonnell uses this authority to deny Carry Licenses to nearly all law-abiding adults by denying their applications or, in many cases, informing potential applicants that applying would be futile because they would not satisfy his restrictive "good cause" policy [which] requires that an applicant provide "convincing evidence of a clear and present danger" against the applicant or a family member. Accordingly, the vast majority of the population cannot satisfy this discretionary standard, and therefore cannot obtain a license to publicly carry a firearm.
The suit points out that a recent federal 9th Circuit Court of Appeals case, Peruta, upheld restrictions similar to Los Angeles' in San Diego County. In that case the court, ignoring the Heller and McDonald cases that established a core self-defense right inherent in the Second Amendment (but which did not, alas, directly address how it applies outside the home), "held only that the carrying of concealed firearms was not historically protected by the Second Amendment, while leaving for another day the question of whether the Second Amendment protects the carrying of firearms openly."
This new suit picks up the challenge Peruta laid down:
In light of that ruling, Plaintiffs ask this Court to hold those provisions of California law that prohibit them from openly carrying firearms unconstitutional. Plaintiffs nevertheless also challenge Defendants' restrictions that bar them from obtaining concealed Carry Licenses….
The plaintiffs, represented by gun-rights lawyer C.D. Michel:
seek declaratory relief confirming that (1) the Second Amendment protects the right to carry a firearm for self-defense in public and (2) Defendants' total denial of the exercise of that right violates the Second Amendment….Plaintiffs also seek a declaration that California laws prohibiting the open carriage of firearms violate the Second Amendment, or, alternatively, that Defendants' laws and policies that preclude law-abiding citizens from carrying a concealed firearm for self-defense are unconstitutional.
The suit treats it as obvious that the holding in Heller ought to protect at least some ability to carry a weapon outside the home. That however has been a point of controversy in lower courts so far, one the Supreme Court has not seen fit yet to resolve. Perhaps this case will end up pushing that project along.
As I wrote in my 2014 article on "Five Gun Rights Cases to Watch," there is a lot of conflict over the issue in the courts, pre-Peruta:
The petition [to the Supreme Court in Drake v. Jerejian, a case the Court chose not to hear] points out that the issue of carry permits is ripe for Supreme Court consideration; "the federal appellate courts, and state courts of last resort, are split on the question of whether the Second Amendment secures a right to carry handguns outside the home for self-defense. The Second, Fourth, Fifth, and Seventh Circuits, and the supreme courts of Illinois, Idaho, Oregon, and Georgia have held or assumed" that citizens do have that right; but both the Third Circuit in this case, and "the highest courts of Massachusetts, Maryland, and the District of Columbia" think that public carry can be far more circumscribed legally.
Peruta itself, as Damon Root explained, asserts that Heller for sure doesn't cover concealed carry. A dissenting judge in Peruta did state what the plaintiffs in this case believe: "the Defendant counties' limited licensing of the right to carry concealed firearms is tantamount to a total ban on the right of an ordinary citizen to carry a firearm in public for self-defense. Thus, Plaintiffs' Second Amendment rights have been violated. While states may choose between different manners of bearing arms for self-defense, the right must be accommodated."
The relief sought in this suit, in part:
A declaration that denying all manners of publicly carrying a firearm for self-defense to law-abiding citizens violates the Second Amendment…
A declaration that California Penal Code sections 25850, 26350, 26400, and 26150(b)(2) are unconstitutional facially and as applied to Plaintiffs insomuch as they preclude law-abiding citizens from openly carrying a firearm in public for self-defense…..
As an alternative to the relief in paragraphs 3-6 of this Prayer, Plaintiffs seek: A declaration that California Penal Code section 26150(a)(2)'s "good cause" criterion is unconstitutional facially and as applied to Plaintiffs and lawabiding citizens who seek a Carry License to exercise their constitutional right to carry a firearm for self-defense….A declaration that Defendant McDonnell's "good cause" policy under section 26150(a)(2), which rejects a general desire for self-defense as sufficient good cause for the issuance of a Carry License, is unconstitutional facially and as applied to Plaintiffs under the Second Amendment….
Details on the citizen plaintiffs:
• Michelle Flanagan, a realtor, who "has two licenses to carry a firearm issued by the states of Arizona and Utah. These licenses authorize her to carry a firearm in thirty-five states, but not in California." She used to have a carry license in California's Kern County. She was denied such a permit in L.A. County, despite her asserting that she had "good cause" to need one "because her job duties require her to enter vacant industrial buildings alone, where she encounters vagrant men who are often much larger than her.
• Samuel ("Thomas") Golden, "a Certified Carry License Instructor for California, Utah, and Florida. He is also one of the trainers qualified to teach the Carry License training course to individuals applying for a Carry License with the Los Angeles County Sheriff. He has trained at least 10,000 shooters at almost every level. Also denied a carry license for himself from L.A. County.
• Dominic Nardone, a 69-year-old Vietnam veteran, asserted a "good cause" of wanting to "defend himself and his family," denied by L.A. County Sheriff McDonnell because he "did not face a significant enough threat."
• Jacob Perkio, who wanted a carry license "for self-defense while hiking and camping with his wife in remote areas." Denied by L.A. County.
Past Reason reporting on California gun carrying policy from Steven Greenhut.
The Los Angeles Times's report on the suit. The California Rifle and Pistol Association's announcement of it.
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California IS a second amendment violation.
Ninth Circuit right? Good on them for filing the suit but it's pointless. The ninth will bend over backwards to allow for any and all gun control laws/ordnances, kind of like the Supreme Court will do after Clinton gets through with them.
Yes, the 9th - who's controlling case on the 2nd is not Silveira v. Lockyer but Hickman v. Block in which the court's analysis got the facts of Miller completely wrong to arrive at their finding. Silveira papered over that.
One or two diamonds amongst a mountain of shit - that is the 9th.
Both Silveira and Hickman were abrogated by the Heller decision.
Relevant: One of the best legal minds on the 2nd amendment.
Thanks. Appreciate the history articles on that site.
Way back in the 90s David Hardy was legally bitch-slapping the gun control movement with precise, well-researched legal arguments. He had old English Common law references on "bearing armes" and the domicile and "defens of same". Cool stuff. That's not his original website which may no longer exist.
There's links for that stuff from the page you posted. That stuff is great
Oh, I also appreciate that someone seems willing to die on this hill.
Why vote at all if some gun nut asshole can wave a document written by 18th century slavers in your face. I'm in favor of being ruled by a beneficient monarchy of entitled gun owners. Top men is what we need.
Is this the derp singularity? It sure looks like it.
I'm a libertarian and all but I carve out exemptions for gun control laws and taxes on the top 1%, which I am apathetic about and which don't affect me. What are your exemptions? Abortion, immigration, defense spending? There are so many, really.
"I have nothing interesting to say and don't feel like engaging in my usual communist apologetics, so I'm just going to make shit up and outright lie about my intentions"
Um, thanks
I don't know what to tell you. George Orwell is my literary hero and I attempt to write in clear, direct sentences that convey my meaning. Surely my thesis that libertarians have bigger fish to fry than milquetoast gun control regulations is clear? If not, I restate.
I don't know what to tell you
You could start by not lying.
About what?
Everything, but in this case I'll settle for the "I'm apathetic" bullshit.
Well I could point out you are a liar because you masturbate to photos of Mao and Joseph Stalin murdering children but its simpler to point out that you call yourself both a socialist and a libertarian meaning you are lying about your affiliation regardless of what that affiliation is.
But we all know what it is don't we comrade?
He might not be lying; he might just be totally insane.
George Orwell is my literary hero
But you don't understand that he wasn't writing instruction manuals.
"I'm a libertarian and all but..."
Maybe 'Everything before the but is bullshit' should be added to the list of iron laws.
I snorted ramen out of my nose.
You're not a libertarian. Your a socialist and king of the straw men. Also, Orwell being your hero is rich. I take it by hero you mean you love the idea of a 1984 society.
AmSoc isn't even trying anymore.
It's a tedious cunt
When your rights are subject to a vote, which do you think they'll go after next?
If I had to vote on a proposition to outlaw the private ownership of firearms, I would vote no-- while yawning while I did it. Why are libertarians so absolutely obsessed with this issue to the exclusion of all others? Psst, there's a half trillion dollar defense budget, nuclear weapon stockpiles, hundreds of thousands in jail for non-violent drug offenses, but yet we'll all claw and scrape if some politician proposes that nuts should not have access to AK-47s. That tells me all I need to know about the agenda that is being pushed.
All you ever needed to know was taught to you by Karl Marx and Noam Chomsky long ago. Facts and what people actually think were irrelevant then, so why start pretending you care now?
Why are libertarians so absolutely obsessed with this issue to the exclusion of all others?
Huge strawman you have there.
We also care about weed.
And butt secks.
And Mexicans.
And deep dish.
Aaaaaand yet we actually don't do that. We've accepted that automatic weapons are basically gone (legally) and not coming back. No one fighting gun control is fighting for people to have access to AK-47's.
We're fighting for access to .38 specials, to P-32's, to 9FS' - you know, the firearms that are the basic foundation of self-defense armament.
Yet we should be fighting for automatic weapons too. If we accept that there is a limit to what "arms" can be owned, then the fight is over. Any arms then can be banned because you've accepted that there is a limit and the limit just happens to be a non-pointy knife.
Why are libertarians so absolutely obsessed with this issue to the exclusion of all others?
I am sure that there are plenty of libertarians that are concerned with all the other issues you pose.
Why do you feel libertarians can only be obsessed with one thing?
Who here votes?
I vote anytime I can.
My candidates almost always lose, and I almost never stop the State and Local Gov't from raising my taxes- but you have to try...
We stomped the the local asshole Mayor out of office last time- by 32 votes out of over 12,000.
"monarchy"
"owners"
Someone failed their poli sci classes.
It is a pity that few people will read the Complaint filed in this so called "Open Carry" lawsuit and even fewer will understand it. The Complaint barely mentions Open Carry and fails to allege the elements required to establish legal standing to challenge California's Open Carry bans.
The concealed carry challenge is precluded by the en banc decision in Peruta v. San Diego.
In any event, my California Open Carry lawsuit has a five year head start and is already on appeal. My appeal will be heard and decided long before the NRA/CRPA drops/loses its lawsuit.
http://blog.californiarighttoc.....ge_id=5113
You know what's really important? Internecine squabbles. They always go well for the cause.
Well good luck to you too.
Good luck, gun nut.
SO MUCH APATHY
Can't one be an enthusiastically apathetic? It's kind of like telling someone to calm the fuck down
That's annoyance, not apathy.
No. No more than you can have a square circle.
Hey guys,
At the next libertarian convention I'm going to form the group "Libertarians Who Don't Give a Shit About Gun Laws". How long before I'll be shown the door and will it be before or after the group "Libertarians for Life" is kicked out?
At the next libertarian convention I'm going to form the group "Libertarians Who Don't Give a Shit About Gun Laws".
It's generally considered bad form to state your intent out loud to engage in a false flag operation.
Which of the three libertarians at the convention would throw you out? that's my question.
One who doesn't abide by the nap!
This is a joke.
I'll settle for you having a strip-down dance-off with James Weeks.
You know what most people who don't give a shit about something do when they see an article about that topic?
Hint: it's not "post comments on it eight times in a half hour."
"The suit treats it as obvious that the holding in Heller ought to protect at least some ability to carry a weapon outside the home". Well, what is obvious is that a militia that cannot leave home is pretty much useless. The first part of the amendment tells why the right shall not be infringed. The whole self-defense in-or-out-of-the-home with-or-without-women etc is just so much smokescreen. Repeal it or accept it.
My mothers neighbour is working part time and averaging $9000 a month. I'm a single mum and just got my first paycheck for $6546! I still can't believe it. I tried it out cause I got really desperate and now I couldn't be happier. Heres what I do,
?????? http://www.Max43.com
I would find it interesting to see who LA let's have a CC license.
I would assume it is much like New Jersey where the politically connected get to have carry licenses, but no one else does.
The number of handgun carry permit applications that were filed versus approved in New Jersey was included in the SAF lawsuit a few years back. New Jersey approved over 90% of the applications of those who applied.
I seem to recall that there was a concealed carry lawsuit against the LAPD and LASD a few years back (it lost) in which a list of CCW holders was obtained. There weren't many as I recall and a large chunk of those obtained their CCW permits from a settlement back in the 1990s.