In College Rape Disputes, Is the Woman the Victim Even When She's the Perpetrator?
A messy encounter at Washington State University.


Most of the sexual assaults—and alleged sexual assaults—that occur on college campuses are perpetrated by males. But not all of them.
A Washington State University student was accused of luring an intoxicated student to a private dorm room, making sure no one else could get in, and committing sexual acts on an incapacitated victim. This victim was male. The perpetrator, "Rose," was female.
She recently told her story to BuzzFeed News. The story, written by a reporter named Ema O'Connor, was remarkably sympathetic to Rose—to an extent that causes me to wonder whether reversing the genders in rape disputes would always have a similar effect.
The incident happened in January of 2014, during Rose's second semester at the university. She found herself playing a drinking game with a male student she had a crush on, and a bunch of his friends. Both Rose and the male student consumed far too much alcohol, but the male was in significantly worse shape, according to the university's investigation, which concluded that he had been too drunk to meaningfully consent to sex.
Rose led him back to her dorm room, where they engaged in various sex acts (mostly oral sex, according to accounts). The male student tried to leave at various points, but Rose pleaded with him to stay. Eventually his friends came looking for him, concerned that he wasn't aware of what he was doing. He finally escaped from Rose and hid in a closet.
It was Rose's first sexual encounter. The BuzzFeed article notes that she is overweight and was not particularly popular with this group of students. In the days following the encounter, some students made fun of the male for having sex with Rose. Others told him he had been taken advantage of. A residence advisor found out about the incident, and the campus's Title IX authorities were alerted. As is often the case in these disputes, it's not clear that the victim saw himself as such at the outset of the investigation. Rose was forced out of her dorm immediately—before the investigation had even commenced—in order to create a safe space for her alleged victim.
Rose filed a counter-accusation—not because she actually thought she had been raped, but "to prove a point." The university dismissed her complaint, reckoning that she wasn't as intoxicated as the male student, and as such, should have known what she was doing was wrong. She was ultimately expelled for sexual misconduct.
This is a tricky dispute, and the BuzzFeed story treats it that way. Obviously, Rose was naïve, and shouldn't have engaged in sexual acts with a black-out drunk person. And she shouldn't have bullied him into staying with her. But do these actions make her a rapist? Was she actually a threat to public safety? Should she have been expelled? It doesn't seem to be the case that she defied a direct request from the male student to cease all sexual activity. If she's guilty, she's guilty because of affirmative consent: in the university's view, her victim was incapable of consenting, even if he appeared capable to Rose.
I think a reasonable person could conclude that Rose's bad behavior was not serious enough to merit formal disciplinary measures. But if the genders were reversed, would the perpetrator be seen in such a sympathetic light? Consider that the BuzzFeed article details all the consequences that the perpetrator—not the victim, but the perpetrator—has suffered. O'Connor writes:
Rose, who asked to be identified by her middle name, is now 21. She was at WSU on a scholarship and was on track to graduate this May as prelaw with criminal justice and political science majors. She was recently laid off from a minimum-wage retail job due to cutbacks.
Rose applied to WSU's neighboring school, the University of Idaho — which would accept the third-party scholarship she is on — but said she was rejected because their public safety board said her disciplinary record was "a risk."
And here I was thinking that we were supposed to shame and denounce people for sympathizing with perpetrators of sexual assault. We have just witnessed an all-out media attack on everyone perceived as remotely sympathetic to Brock Turner—anyone who mentioned the fact that his life is ruined, or that he will never be an Olympic swimmer, was derided as a victim-blamer. (Admittedly, Turner's failings are far more serious than Rose's, and he was rightly convicted of sexual assault.)
In any case, If Rose's victim, or the victim's friends, really believed he had been sexually assaulted, perhaps someone should have called the police. The Turner outcome demonstrates that rape disputes can be handled by the police in a manner that achieves some justice for the victim, particularly when there are witnesses to the crime.
On the other hand, if the male student didn't see himself as the victim of a crime, perhaps it wasn't the university's business to reclassify a messy encounter between a bunch of drunken teenagers as a sexual assault.
(Related: Brock Turner Case Proves That Activists Are Wrong About Campus Rape Trials)
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I'm still trying to figure out the point of this, beyond, "Post due from Rico!"
Your people know that feeling.
Every time I hear that, i think of the hilarious Pia Zadora urban legend
That is hilarious.
If Rose is a fatty uggo, then its rape.
The story, written by a reporter named Ema O'Connor, was remarkably sympathetic to Rose?to an extent that causes me to wonder whether reversing the genders in rape disputes would always have a similar effect.
Do you wonder? Really? Because I don't.
"Made me wonder, purely for the sake of having a workable premise for this post, whether..."
Hmm. It made me wonder if Ema O'Connor's middle name is Rose.
They washes each others hair in the shower?
TW: Buzzfeed screenshot of a drunk text conversation.
I am very glad I was in college 20 years ago rather than now.
Every time I see this sort of insanity I'm thrilled that my misspent youth is 30 years behind me.
This is a tricky dispute...
No, it's not. By any rational, sane or moral standard, a drunken hook-up is not rape. Period. Full stop.
By the insane standards being pushed in academia, it's a clear cut case of rape.
The only thing that makes it "tricky" is the desire to impose a double standard between men and women.
Exactly right. It takes quite a contortionist to argue every hookup where the woman is drunk makes the woman the victim and every hookup where the man is drunk makes the woman a victim.
Exactly.
The only thing making any of this "tricky" are the insane contortions which people like Robby put themselves through to try and maintain a pretense of logic while desperately dhering to his generation's retarded faux-moral-fashion-trends.
What happens when "hide in closet"-boy writes a long weepy open letter about how traumatized he is by his "rape"? Are we obligated to pull a joe biden and declare him to be today's christ on the cross?
The Boy here was sexually assaulted. as robby rightly notes = he can choose not to press charges and they can all forget it ever happened. which is what many people do in the course of maturation, knowing that they were probably themselves partly to blame for the circumstances, if not the act itself.
but the drama-queen generation can't accept that and needs to hypervictimize everyone in perpetuity.
This is a tricky dispute, and the BuzzFeed story treats it that way. Obviously, Rose was na?ve, and shouldn't have engaged in sexual acts with a black-out drunk person. And she shouldn't have bullied him into staying with her. But do these actions make her a rapist? Was she actually a threat to public safety? Should she have been expelled?
Uh, yes? This seems pretty cut and dry to me since she A. admitted it and B. there are witnesses that testify affirmatively that the male victim was too drunk to consent to sexual activities.
She's guilty of violating school policy for sure and I'd argue guilty criminally if the guy felt like pressing charges.
You're right, by the insane standards being pushed in academia.
Of course, she was drunk too. Only he was drunker. But, in terms of ability to legally consent, that strikes me as preposterous. Either you can or can't consent. The fact that he was drunker is irrelevant. The only rational conclusion based on the standards being pushed in academia is that they raped each other. And that makes a joke out of the entire concept of rape.
This logic seems very flawed to me.
If you and I are both drunk, but I shoot you in the leg, is it both our faults? No, I shot you. It's my fault.
If you and I are both drunk (you're "drunker" than me), and I take you into my room, play around with you a bit while you try to leave (several times) and appear not to want me to continue, is it both our faults? No, I molested you. It's my fault.
Granted, this is somewhat difficult because we don't know exactly what he said to her (did he ask her to stop, but was too incapacitated to physically make her stop?), and we don't know exactly what she did.
This is similar to the argument in the Brock Turner article. Just because someone is incapacitated, does not give you the right to do whatever you want to them, even if the incapacitation was their own doing.
hey a blow job is a blow job regardless of whether you're the blower or the blowee...
Um....if you can't tell the difference between being blown and blowing I'm concerned for you.
Not too keen on receiving but I sure do like to give head.
If you and I are both drunk (you're "drunker" than me), and I take you into my room, play around with you a bit while you try to leave (several times) and appear not to want me to continue, is it both our faults?
From the article:
The male student tried to leave at various points, but Rose pleaded with him to stay.
So, short answer, no. The only thing she did to "make" him stay was applying persuasion. Him and her going to her room and playing around was a decision, if they were both drunk, that neither was able to "consent" to. You're either drunk and unable to give consent, or you're not. Now, as I say above, I don't think you can rationally call a drunken hook-up rape. So, there isn't any "fault".
Just because something isn't "rape" doesn't mean nothing bad happened or that no one is at fault. I don't think she should be put in jail, but what she did was wrong, and the school has every right to boot her.
"Rose pleaded with him to stay."
Not sure what the extent of this "pleading" was... kinda odd that the guy ended up hiding in a closet to get away from her.
Also the guy was blackout drunk, meaning the only account of how his attempts to leave played out come from the perpetrator.
moral bravery of a sort. Otherwise he might be compelled to punch her to straighten her shit out.
Plus the situation was bad enough that his male friends were standing at the door with concern. If it had been female friends checking in on him it could be chalked up to general rape paranoia that seems to permeate certain circles, but male friends are more likely to high five someone for getting laid than be concerned about intricacies of consent. If whatever was going on was bad enough to concern the guys, I'm going to end up wanting to hear more.
I think that depends on how aware he was of the situation, and how physically capable he was of actually leaving. If someone is drunk to the point where they can't physically leave the situation if the other person does not agree to it, and they want to leave, they're not consenting. And from what his friends said, it's very possible that he was at that point.
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just like those cuddly police dogs that are sent out to "play"
Is it okay to body shame a person who wants sympathy for admitting to sexually assaulting someone? I assume that is the point of the story - that people on the internet will make jokes about her body so that she can be a victim - and also so the writer can write more stories in the same vein.
Journalism!
Is it okay to body shame a person who wants sympathy for admitting to sexually assaulting someone?
You mean like this epitome of morality and virtue? I say shame away - her alleged career depends on it!
SJW!
Let those amongst us who haven't written a book where we brag about rubbing one out in the same bed as our pre-teen relatives cast the first stone.
Your autobiography, I take it?
Is it okay to body shame a person who wants sympathy for admitting to sexually assaulting someone?
It's OK to "body shame" someone, period. If they don't want to be called out for being a fat fuck then they should maybe put some effort into losing the god-damned weight. Feeling shame is a good thing sometimes in that it can motivate someone to change.
Not really. Its more like penny-drama.
"If the genders were reversed"? The SJWs don't make any claim to setting equal standards for everyone. Just the opposite. The rules that apply to individuals depend on their identity status, and whether they are the "oppressor" or "marginalized". They are very frank about this.
+1
You nailed it. Wish we had a simple "thumbs up" option for posts here...
But do these actions make her a rapist?
Who called her a rapist? I thought she was expelled for "sexual misconduct" which given the facts provided in the article seems like an accurate description.
Robby has carefully avoided controversy by not addressing the "Police should be involved, not schools" mantra he often repeats in his articles. If Police were involved in this case, with one of our lovely overzealous prosecutors at the helm, she could be facing a couple years in jail and permanent registration in a sex offender registry. If anything it seems like university-administered punishment was far less harsh than the alternative. Or they could have ignored it.
The reality is both universities and our terribly flawed justice system are ill-equipped to met out fair punishments.
Robby has carefully avoided controversy by not addressing the "Police should be involved, not schools" mantra he often repeats in his articles.
FTA:
[emphasis added]
I know no one ever reads the articles, but god-damned, you could have at least skimmed it.
So how does this address the fact that Robby thinks the school's punishment was harsh but Police involvement would be even worse? I read the article. Did you read my comment?
Robby always includes the "Police involvement is better mantra" in these university rape article articles, which I know from reading them, yet he never mentions it in this article. That was my point. His mantra would be contradictory in this case and he never mentions it.
I'll bet if Rose had gotten knocked up as a result of this hookup, the guy would still be held liable for child support.
You bet correctly. Even in cases where a minor boy is a statutory rape victim, he will be held liable for child support.
And in some cases when a woman is raped the rapist gets parental rights. We live in a world run by idiots and the people who vote for them.
Difference is that the woman can abort, adopt the child out without need for the other parent's signature, or leave the infant at several predetermined safe locations. The woman is making a choice to bring the rape baby into existence and all the consequences there of. Man doesn't get any say.
I think the man got his say by forcibly sticking his dick in her.
The point is the male rape victim has to pay child support.
If Rose got knocked up, that would speak against his claim of being black out drunk...
Puta que pariu, Robby. ? t?o cedo pra esta merda.
Go back to bed Doyers, Rico's shenanigans will still be here when the sun rises.
*rolls over angrily in bed and mutters back to sleep*
Speak English, boy!
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Yes. English. However it made me laugh because I thought of the Puerto Rican kid who gave a speech in junior English class on Puta Juice.
This story reminds me of that old saying from when I was back in college, "Sex with a fat chick is a lot like riding a motor scooter: a hell of a lot of fun but you wouldn't want your friends to find out."
"Sex with a fat chick is a lot like getting run over by a moped while you're waiting at the bus stop: It sucks."
And, you know this why?
Carrie Nation would be cackling with glee at this sort of nonsense.
I think a reasonable person could conclude that Rose's bad behavior was not serious enough to merit formal disciplinary measures. But if the genders were reversed, would the perpetrator be seen in such a sympathetic light?
Soave, you might want to look in a mirror on this one. Personally, I admit that I wouldn't consider this something I would insist on calling rape. But if it as reported, it was rape. Only the victim was a guy and the only actual harm to him was likely embarrassment at who assaulted him.
My beef here is that that double standard that I engage in all the time is being perpetrated by someone who just recently wrote at least two articles about the Stanford rape case and made a parenthetical statement here without even a hint of the ambivalence or, I don't know, nuance being shown about this incident. There was no such moral vacillation.
Whichever party has the penis is perpetrator, duh.
It's going to be really interesting the first time a male transgender (e.g. female to male) rapes a woman. They won't know what to do, because on the hand the male trannie has a cock, which makes him automatically guilty, but on the other hand trannies are higher than women on the official Butt-hurt Victim Cred Scale. I'm picturing a lot of SJW heads exploding.
Is it *really* a cock, though? From what I understand it's more like a play-doh sculpture look-alike.
Doesn't matter, the male tranny did the penetrating, so is therefore automatically guilty of rape, but wait, he's a tranny and therefore higher on the aggrieved victim order condescendi *head explodes*.
And really it's still just a clit, just one that's been moved from the inside to the outside
"...and that's how the young boy took his first step into manhood...."
Quick show of hands =
How many people have been girl-raped in a similar fashion at least once?
well, if we're calling being that drunk and having sex rape, my ex wife raped me a lot
...
...
please don't make me go to buzzfeed to try and find out what "the point" was supposed to be?
you shouldn't be allowed to use that phrase without answering the implicit, "...and it was *what*?"
They are 'crimes', not 'failings'. And i was under the impression he was unequivocally "a Rapist", legal-nuance be damned.
Yeah. I took the storylines I saw about the Turner case to be another drunken college hook up turned into national case. I was livid at the mob mentality that was present all around calling for a hanging.
That was, until I read the letter that the woman wrote and read in court. Now I find myself siding with the mob.
That Turner guy is a sicko. I only wonder who protected him for so long that it came to this before he was caught? You can't tell me that was his first rodeo.
what difference, at this point, does it make?
this should actually be the beginning of a piece instead of the end of one.
But, we've been told for years that rapes are grossly underreported because women blame themselves and thus don't see themselves as victims. And, thus we have those who want to speak for these victims because they are unable to speak for themselves the story line goes.
While people are in the process of musing on double-standards, and very-flexible notions of what "Reasonable people" will conclude....
...what if it turns out victim-boy was gay?
Would the generous appraisal of the girl's culpability change at all? Would it still "not be serious enough" to merit any formal disciplinary charges?
Wouldn't matter. Gay males have been kicked out of the Marginalized Peoples Club and are now considered Oppressors. Try to keep up.
It might matter in the retarded-moral-contortioning of the millenial-journo-mind, however.
The unstated assumption in the sexual-assault double-standard is that "boys are always willing" (subconsciously or otherwise).
that would be undermined if the boy outed himself.
the fact is that it shouldn't matter at all of course; but i expect it would complicate Robby's quick determination that this wasn't really serious enough to demand discipline.
It should matter, though. Him being gay speaks to the likelyhood of him consenting or not. We don't have a camera of what happened. We just have to weigh the testimonies of people that were there and some text messages. Being gay directly supports the narrative that he didn't consent.
Shouldn't matter because whatever his self-stated orientation, "he said no" and tried to reject the advances of the girl in repeated ways. You don't need to be gay to claim that you're being taken advantage of. The idea that merely being hetero means "boys can never say no to sex-starved-fatties" is a little ... well too convenient.
if the claims about what actually happened were in doubt and there weren't witnesses, as there seem to be in this case, i guess it would be more-important.
Tho i concede that - if, as you say below, no one can remember exactly what happened - there's often a strong 'day-after' change of opinion by both parties.
as per my above request for "show of hands" - i'm sure at least a few people have discovered post-hoc that they "did something(someone) drunk that they never would have done sober", often under duress of an otherwise less-than-appealingly-shaped female.
boys are told to shrug it off as part of the cost of manhood, which i think is probably right. teaches you to drink less/be more discriminating. However girls who do the same are increasingly (and similarly) socially pressured into doing very much the opposite = cry rape and bring the heavens down.
If he's gay it would remove all ambiguity about what happened that night. Right now he can't remember so the story is pieced together from perp's claims and what some friends saw go on outside of the room. If he's gay we can say for certain that he didn't even drunkenly consent to what happened, and that the girl is lying in her statements. Sexuality in this case is very relevant to the truthfulness of statements.
The defense would only counter that he was bi and not straight up gay.
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Only white people can be racist and only men can be rapists.
And how is this situation so different than the Brock Turner thing?
no social-signaling value
Moral of the story: always drink more than your partner.
Except if you're going to drive. Then the more drunk you are the more guilty you are.
Being drunk means you can't consent but you can have mens rea.
People are so full of shit.
that's always the moral
He didn't want to sleep with her because she was fat. He is the one who should be charged! In the world of the progressive future, sizeism will be eliminated and passed out males will be distributed to fatties.
p.s. As a fatty myself, I understand her frustration, but NEVER EVER did I ever FORCE myself on a drunk skinny. What she did was unequivocally rape, and she should be facing criminal charges, instead of being coddled for being sad.
An example of the framing demonstrating how deeply the "reporter" was advocating on her behalf:
She was at WSU on a scholarship and was on track to graduate this May as prelaw with criminal justice and political science majors.
She was in her second semester.
It sucks for this person, but as long as only men are subject to these procedures the radfems will never consider unjust outcomes as meaningful. They believe it's appropriate for today's men to pay for the sins of other men.
Reparations?
40 acres and a mule?
Adjudicate 150 year old "treaties" that were broken?
There's a long history here.
RE: In College Rape Disputes, Is the Woman the Victim Even When She's the Perpetrator?
This only occurs only when women are the victim.
Any feminists will tell you that.
Equality is not for the little people, especially if they are white males.
This is the "New Equality" all the socialists turds in academia and ruling bodies of government are talking about.
Doesn't that just send tingles up and down your spine?
Single sex college is the only answer. That way any infraction is a criminal matter
Unless the victim was gay of course. Then, they'll say s/he wanted it.
Even though Women comprise 51% of the population we are not considered "major" a majority. The word minority is a variation of "minor."
The definition of the word minor
lesser, as in size, extent, or importance, or being or noting the lesser of two: a minor share.
not serious, important, etc.: a minor wound; a minor role.
having low rank, status, position, etc.: a minor official.
under the legal age of full responsibility.
Majority - Major
a commissioned military officer ranking next below a lieutenant colonel and next above a captain.
one of superior rank, ability, etc., in a specified class.
greater in size, extent, or importance: the major part of the town.
great, as in rank or importance: a major political issue; a major artist.
serious or risky: a major operation.
of or relating to the majority: the major opinion.
Women are proclaimed a so-called minority, therefor not totally responsible for our own actions. Until strong women stand up and declare our majority we will continue to be treated as children, legally, morally, spiritually...and the same goes for all those other "minorities" out there who seem to think the assignment of social and legal standing upon the citizenry (for our own good) will help them gain access to the "major" league.
Ah, the protected classes. As a government employee and, as a hiring manager with supervisorial powers, I get to deal with this regularly.
Hey, I can pretty much fire any white guy under 40 or so with impunity. But throw any other demographic measure into the mix and my hands are tied.
And we wonder why incompetence isn't weeded out in our meritorious pursuits. 🙁
That's pretty interesting, can you tell us more?
(Not /sarc)
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Here's a scenario for college rape enthusiasts culled straight from the real world. Places and names have been changed.
Setting: Major US university dorm floor party. Alcohol and drugs are available throughout the entire dorm. All students involved are freshmen. None are athletes.
Student A is dancing at a dorm party. 'A' has been consuming alcohol and is intoxicated. Student B, with whom Student A has had previous one-on-one consensual sexual relations, approaches A with two friends, Student C and Student D. A knows 'C' and 'D' and on separate occasions, has had previous one-on-one sexual relations with both of them. It's unknown whether B, C and D have consumed drugs, alcohol or are intoxicated.
Together, B, C and D verbally cajole A then physically pull A from the dance floor and escort A to A's dorm room. A does not resist but does not verbally offer consent. Once inside A's dorm room, B, C and D proceed to grope, kiss and remove A's clothes. A does not resist but does not offer verbal consent. Together B, C and D all have sex with A. A participates, does not resist but does not give verbal consent at any time. After the sex is completed B, C and D leave A's dorm room. The next morning A wakes up alone, sober and with clear memories of the evening's events but does not report the incident to campus authorities. Has a rape occurred?
This is a foreseeable outcome of alcohol in coed dorms.
This is obviously a case of fat shaming. There would have been no charges if she were hot.
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