Federal Programs Keep People Poor
We can't tax our way to greater income mobility

Many very rich people in America—including a certain presidential front-runner on the Republican side—were born into their wealth. But others started with nothing and, through talent and effort, worked their way to the top of the heap. From Andrew Carnegie to Sam Walton to Oprah Winfrey, our history is bursting with rags-to-riches stories of people who achieved "the American dream." Winfrey was born dirt poor to unwed teenage parents. She suffered abuse, had to leave her home, and got pregnant at 14, only to lose the child. None of that stopped her from rising to head a multimillion-dollar media operation.
The idea that anything is possible here has attracted millions of immigrants to U.S. shores—but increasingly the political left has fretted that "income mobility," or the ability to rise from modest beginnings, is faltering in America. In response, Democratic politicians such as Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders are calling for policies to address the absence of "opportunity" through higher taxes on the rich and more wealth redistribution to the poor.
So how does the U.S. actually compare to the rest of the world? In November 2015, Manhattan Institute economist Scott Winship published a two-part series addressing that very question, summarizing his findings like this: "The new evidence does not suggest that the U.S. has especially high economic mobility, but it does indicate that America is not the international laggard that has been portrayed by earlier studies."
That's hardly a ringing endorsement of the status quo. But as Winship says in an email, "Proceeding from the mistaken view that there is no opportunity for anyone will lead policy makers to misdirect scarce resources—including money and attention—away from those who really do face long odds against success." While Americans are better off than their counterparts in other countries on a number of metrics, in some areas, such as mobility among black men, our progress is abysmal.
We ought to be concerned when a segment of the population falls behind. But it turns out that many of the policies Clinton and Sanders demand in the name of helping the less fortunate would very likely make the problem worse.
Clinton plans to raise taxes mostly on the top 1 percent of Americans. Sanders' plan meanwhile would significantly increase the rates of federal income, payroll, business, and estate taxes, and impose new excise taxes on financial transactions and carbon. He also wants to tax capital gains and dividends at ordinary income rates for households that make over $250,000. Under his plan, all income groups would feel the pinch, though most of the money would come from high-income households.
But the candidates' ambitions may not produce the benefits they expect. As the liberal Tax Policy Center notes, for example, Sanders' "proposals would raise taxes on work, saving, and investment, in some cases to rates well beyond recent historical experience in the U.S."
Increasing taxes on savings and investments has the unfortunate effect of hurting poor people while rich folks benefit. That's because when you raise taxes on something, you usually get less of it. When fewer people are willing to save or invest their money, it reduces the capital stock (that is, the amount of factories and equipment available to workers). This makes people less productive over time—imagine trying to do your job without access to a computer!—which eventually depresses wages. And since there's now less capital, the return on what capital remains increases. As Andrew Lundeen from the Tax Foundation notes, the result is that "wage earners make less and capital owners make more." Stated otherwise, workers' mobility goes down and inequality goes up.
Beyond the unintended effects of the taxes themselves, many liberals support policies (such as universal health care, a dramatic increase in the federal minimum wage, and mandatory paid family leave) that might sound good in theory but would almost certainly backfire. We're already seeing just that play out with Obamacare. In 2014, the Congressional Budget Office—Congress' official fiscal scorekeeper—revised its original estimate to report that because of the law, by 2024 the equivalent of 2.5 million Americans who were otherwise willing and able to work will have exited the labor force.
Those findings were based in part on the work of economist Casey Mulligan of the University of Chicago. Mulligan has found that government spending programs tied to income (that is, programs that are meant to benefit low-income workers only) make work less remunerative for poor Americans. When the government takes away a person's benefits as his income goes up, it has the same effect as a direct tax. And remember, when you tax something, you usually get less of it. That means these programs can actually hinder income mobility: In order to continue receiving their government cash, individuals are forced to limit the amount they earn. Thus, they have an incentive not to try to climb the income ladder by putting in extra hours or signing up for job training and educational programs.
Sanders' plan was likely influenced by the acclaimed work of liberal economists Peter Diamond and Emmanuel Saez, whose research suggests that an increase in marginal rates of taxation on the wealthy to somewhere between 50 and 70 percent would maximize revenue for the government without penalizing people who want to work.
Indeed, the literature shows that in the short term, marginal rate increases don't have much of an effect on the amount of labor supplied by the typical full-time-employed man in the 30–50 age range. However, this finding doesn't hold for secondary earners, such as the working wives of high-income earners. And as Nobel laureate Edward Prescott has shown, the impact of higher tax rates on the labor supply is most visible in the long run, because it often takes the form of earlier retirement. This effect is particularly strong if the higher tax rates are paired with a generous welfare state like the one Sanders wants.
High-income earners may also respond to tax hikes by asking for more generous employer-sponsored health insurance and other untaxed fringe benefits, evading taxes by underreporting their income, or doing their business outside the United States. At the end of the day, when incentives change, so does people's behavior.
Recent papers by Cornell economist Karel Mertens further challenge the common belief that raising or lowering taxes only affects people at the top of the income distribution. Mertens' work shows that "marginal rate cuts lead to increases in real [gross domestic product] and declines in unemployment," and that "tax cuts targeting the top 1% alone have positive effects on economic activity and incomes outside of the top 1%." This is true even if the cuts increase pre-tax levels of income inequality.To repeat: Cutting marginal rates on the top 1 percent has a positive impact on lower-income workers.
Clinton and Sanders are right to be concerned about the mobility of poor Americans. But increased opportunity comes when we cultivate a robust, growing economy. To accomplish that, we need to eliminate the policies that are holding back low-income earners in general and black males in particular. That means championing school choice, reforming our criminal justice system, and ending the easy-money policies that have prevailed in Washington for a decade but mostly benefit the rich people on Wall Street who actually own most of the stocks.
There are many ways we can help the poor (and the middle class, for that matter); overtaxing the rich—thereby making it less appealing to be the next Oprah Winfrey or Andrew Carnegie—is not one of them.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "Federal Programs Keep People Poor."
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Just got off the redeye flght and am in downtown Atlanta. For once I am in Eastern time, but of course it's a day with no morning links.
Oh well, might as well go to bed.
At least you were largely spared the pleasant demeanor that seems to affect all ATL workers.
The fewer governmental impediments on the economy there are, the greater the economic mobility. Stealing wealth and allotting it as they please is something politicians excel at, but it won't accomplish anything but ruin.
Ruin for non-politicians.
Everyone knows rich people take their money and put it in their home vault that's guarded by rabid orphans. It multiplies by it's self,just like mushrooms.
Not true: we dive into it and swim around like Scrooge McDuck.
Well, some people use it to buy gold coins and roll around in bed with them, like ZaSu Pitts in Greed.
The last people who should be helping the working poor or anyone else for that matter are left-wingers, populists and shameless twats.
All those things proposed in the article have been tried - in Europe. And now look at it.
Tidbit: The only parts of England that aren't visibly fucked up by progressivism are the staunch Old Tory strongholds.
According to the Heritage Foundation, over the past 52 years we've spent $22 Trillion in the war on poverty. Except for the those distributing that money (cronies, government employees, politicians) and actual criminals getting their share via fraud, I don't think the "war" has had much effect. Isn't it amazing that such documented failure is invisible to "progressives?"
I believe the "War on Poverty" has been quite effective. After many decades of 'fighting' the war, the USA has more (likely a higher percentage of the population) poor people than in previous periods. A large portion of the population is dependent on the government for their sustenance and will remain so from cradle to grave.
But our poor people are fatter and have more stuff than any poor people in the world. America hasn't won a war since WWII. We fought a war on poverty and poverty won. We fought a war on illiteracy and illiteracy won. War on drugs, drugs won. The only war we're winning is the war on sexual inequality, and we're winning that one by turning our men into women.
The average American family of four on welfare now weigh in at just over a ton.
That would be 500lbs each!
So the War on Poverty has been as successful as the War on Drugs.
We just need a war on penises.
Apparently you have not read the "dear colleague" letters from the Department of Education.
I have. Hence my new name for Obama, The Bathroom Nazi.
Don't forget our War on Terror.
There's no question America is the better option among nations. None.
Academic and political studies, examples and suggestions aside, people still clamor to its shores as if to ignore all this. I call this the Law of the Hunch.
No one is running to Russia and North Americans don't flock to Europe. All arrows point to America (and to Canada to a lesser extent).
Just about every liberal I know goes on ad nauseam about how great Europe is, how everything is free, everyone is happy, free rainbow colored unicorns, blah blah blah. And I'm talking about well to do liberals, all who could move there if they really wanted to. But for some reason, they don't. Seriously, if there existed a libertarian paradise equivalent to these liberal paradises, I'd already be there instead of blabbering on about the great paradise incessantly and how we should be more like it.
In the simplest terms, here's the deal: America has never been great, isn't great, and will never be great simply because it's America. That's like being asked why the sky looks blue, and just answering with, "Because it's blue."
We owe America's greatness to its original culture of freedom and justice. If we lose that, America will cease to be great, and we'll fall apart like the rest of the world.
Politicians don't seem to care, or understand, about this concept. You can't turn the United States into a shitty, quasi-European welfare pit and expect it to remain the mighty success it's been.
Well, we have to be able to stop the progressives because they really are dead set on 'fundamentally changing' America, into their vision of 3rd world shit hole. Hey, but everyone will be able go to whatever bathroom they want to! Just don't expect them to be clean and pervert free.
I kid you not -- I'm getting genuinely close to the belief that the only thing that could save the American experiment now is a state (or group of them) whose population is still sufficiently unfucked in the head by progressivism seceding forcibly from the United States to form an independent and true republic.
I think the progs are willing to start a civil war. And the way it's looking, they're going to.
You mean you want to start a Rethuglican welfare state? Don't you know it is the progressive Blue states that send in the tax money to let you survive? We will not let you do that and will use all the force of the state to stop you.
Progthink
Word for word.
Just yesterday I had a proggie give me those well worn lines. I commented on an article about the Hillbot suggesting that DC become a state. I asked how about statehood for Jefferson. No, we can't have those hillbilly ignorants go off on their own. We must force them to stay on welfare. It's for their own good really.
The ONLY reason Democrats want DC as a state is for two more Democratic senators.
I would probably be fine with them getting it, as long as it was balanced out by Jefferson. The more options and experiments the better.
It would be nice. I'd even throw in PR.
A large percentage of the Officer Corp and the high ranked non-Com's are from the Mid-West and South. Those areas also have lots of guns. The West is mostly going to fall in line with that group.
So let them come for their war.
People used to come here for the freedom, today they come for the handouts.
Only because the feds are encouraging it. We know some illegals here. They came here to work hard and live a better life because their countries are already impoverished messes. But when they were stopped at the border, they were promised everything under the sun, before they were released. They're being encouraged to take stuff and they don't see anything wrong with that. They've lived in poverty and dealt with corruption their entire life. Now they see a government that actually wants to give them stuff and like a little kid getting gifts from strangers, they don't see the possible danger behind it. They don't realize they're going to help turn the USA into the place they just escaped from.
"Everything's free in A-mare-ee-cah!"
Mostly the same 'handouts' that have existed for 150 years: a relatively functional system of law and an abundance of capital.
Reminds me of my thoughts yesterday about another leftist thrown on the scrap heap of history, Dilma the labor party stooge. Now her remaining comrades, including the interim dear leader, are all going on about what a shame it is that the noble labor party fell to corruption when it was doing so much good for so many people. No, you lying thieves and scoundrels, this was the plan all along, to take tax payer money and throw crumbs to some impoverished people while you robbed the coffers bare. Socialist leaders of today know this shit doesn't work. Sure their useful idiots don't know it, but they know it full well. The plan is theft, from the very beginning. Are we supposed to think that Bernie actually believes this shit, that he can give everyone free healthcare, free college, etc etc when we are already trillions in debt?
Delusion is powerful beyond measure. Don't be so sure they aren't sincere. If they are, they're all the more dangerous.
Well, don't worry, when we've almost reached Venezuela level economic destruction, the leftist in the Whitehouse, whoever it is, will tell us that all the problems would be solved if we just would just elect more transgendered people. Then he/she/it will send out a threatening letter to all states giving them quotas for that.
Hermaphrodites will be sought and elected to office, for only the dual-genital prodigies can lead us to salvation!
This sounds so much like something Obama would actually say that it's scary.
I dunno. I think a lot of these socialist leaders indeed do have good intentions. Yet they pave the road to hell nonetheless.
yeah, most people aren't sociopaths. hitler didn't get elected on a pro-genocide platform.
Not entirely off topic is news for the socialist paradise of Venezuela:
U.S. concern grows over possible Venezuela meltdown - officials
Possible? Potential?
So we should accept all of the poor Venezuelans as economic "refugees". Just the ones that support communism though.
We should start a free "progressive summer camp" in Venezula. They can go mobilize with their noble socialist friends and contemplate the glory of theft without consistent power while wiping their ass without toilet paper.
Actually they'd probably not let them in because the most reliable Liberty leaning immigrants are from communist states.
I can't believe I'm linking to infowarz. I hate infowarz. But some of this is corroborated by other news sources, so...
Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
Don't worry, the light bringer is going to go down there, walk on water and turn 1 million empty rusting cans into loaves and fishes. And when that doesn't work, because Rethuglicans, we'll bail out this good comrade with a few trillion US tax payer dollars.
The way to help the poor is to grow the economic pie. Government redistribution does the opposite.
Trickle Down faggotry! Supply Side Nazi!
THE PIE IS FIXED!!
Being that government produces nothing of value, once it gets involved the pie is indeed fixed. That's why redistribution is the road to poverty. Government stops the pie from growing, then the pie gets smaller and smaller as it is portioned out by politicians.
But it works in Sweden! Sweden is way better and richer tham America! Explain that, capitalist faggoot! You don't even know what socialism means!
I don't have the energy to play today. Time to eat something.
Have a drank, brah. Right now, I'm in the preparatory phase of that, we're I'm thankin about drankin.
I've got some errands to run today. No drinking until I'm done driving.
Well, you are a good law abiding citizen, if it weren't for those thought crimes you're committing right now.
I woke up to beer.
Oh, don't worry. I will commit at least three felonies before the day is done.
And those are just the one's you're aware of
Well I certainly support lowering our corporate tax rate from 39% to 22% like Sweden.
The pie was eaten by the Kochtopus!
I love pie.
If I've learned one thing from this thread it's that I should go buy some Apple Pie Moonshine.
I've tried the Midnight Moon cranberry, and it was pretty damn good.
"The way to help the poor is to grow the economic pie. Government redistribution does the opposite."
Citation missing. Here's one: http://www.cbpp.org/research/r.....nomy#_edn1
Taking money from the rich who would otherwise use it to invest in new production or buy stuff from employers, paying government drones to shuffle it around but otherwise do nothing productive, then distributing that lesser amount of money to people who will buy stuff from employers but likely not invest any of it in new production, will not result in less economic growth that comes from greater production? Sorry. Logic missing.
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One should always note that the effective marginal income tax rates for the poor can be well over 100%, and are often thousands of percent.
Neither the cruelest medieval lord nor the the most vile Southern plantation owner not the most idiotic Soviet commissar would cut his slaves' rations if their efforts yielded more crops or other products than the master expected.
Only the idiot US Congress and the swarms of bureaucrats would devise a system that punishes its charges for being productive.
Examples:
- Earn $1. Lose all disability benefits. MITR= thousands of percent
- Earn $1 over 130% poverty line cap. Lose SSI benefit. MITR = 100%
- Earn $1 over poverty line cap. Lose housing benefit. MITR= thousands of percent
etc. etc., until at 400% of poverty line
- Earn $1 over 400% poverty line cap. Lose ObamaCare subsidy. MITR=hundreds of thousands of percent.
Most people are blissfully ignorant of the scale and multitude of the perverse disincentives that the US welfare state creates for lower income people. The right thing to do would be to tear down the welfare state brick by brick, and to pulverize the bricks. However, if one accepts that that would is politically infeasible, Milton Friedman's idea of guaranteed minimum income would be much better than the monstrosity that Congress has created.
ObamaCare stands out among other welfare programs for its Kafkaesque absurdity: If a person earns 100.1% of poverty line, he get fully subsidized ObamaCare whereas if he earns 99.9% of poverty line he is ineligible for ObamaCare. Theoretically, the guy at 99.9% is supposed to get Medicaid, but it does not work out that way in many states, so he goes uninsured. Seriously, a profoundly disabled person who cannot work and who has no income receives no ObamaCare subsidy whereas a person with 399.9% of poverty line gets a significant subsidy.
I think a lot of people on government bennies are very aware of these laws. Which is why they won't get a job. They've figured they have to make x dollars before it's equal to x benefits and they lack the skills to get a job that pays that much.
And life would be worse while you make the gap.
Yes
Yeah, perhaps some sort of regressive income credit for working where you receive it incrementally throughout the year. The big problem of course is that you distort the market wage price as you do with minimum wage laws. You're in effect subsidizing labor costs although with the income credit unlike the minimum wage we could get some of that back in the form of lower costs to consumers. If you're going to have a safety net at all it's going to come with market distortions and other consequences one way or another so what is the least worst option?
The welfare benefits vs income curves are the walls that keep poor fuckers on the Progressive Plantation. Those curves are not accidental.
"Federal Programs Keep People Poor."
They do? http://www.cbpp.org/research/s.....e-analysis
I could save a lot more for retirement if SSI was not withheld from my salary. Therefore, I wouldn't be in poverty if I retired. As it is, I will be in poverty if the only income I have is SSI benefits. So it makes no sense, FAIL!
What if you have $200,000 in your bank account when you retire? That's not enough to support your retirement w/o Social Security, but maybe enough if you have supplementary income from Social Security.
If you have 200k in your bank account, you probably have a lot more than that in various investments.
If you have 200k to your name... well what if you only have 200k because you had to pay FICA your whole life? I can ask lame questions too.
That's a great hypothetical.
Let me explain it to you like I would explain it to a little kid, since you cannot think outside of your cut and paste level of intellect.
If I saved all the money I have paid to SSI, I could continue to work part time after retirement and earn as much as I want and still not lose any of the money I saved. Do you know what the max SSI benefit is per month? No one can live on that past bare survival level.
If they would give me half of what I've paid in right now to opt out, I would take that without a moment's hesitation. You probably wouldn't, because you're not that smart.
The end point here is that I will never receive any SSI regardless of the amount I have paid because I can't live on it, I will have continue to work until I can't work. Does that sound like a benefits program to you?
My solution is to move to Venezuela where I can get free medical care and all sorts of benefits. They did it by eliminating the profit motive and with all the tremendous savings from that and from speculation they were able to make sure that the people all could share in the wealth.
"Getting rid of speculation"
That mass supermarket looting was just them getting their fair share of the great socialist pie.
I doubt commie kid even knows what percentage of his salary goes into SSI.
without looking it up, it's 6.25% from me and 6.25% from my employer. Did I get it right? That's near the rate-- unless, of course, you are rich. Then it's much less.
How much do you make? i need to see to verify this claim
And the "rich" pay that percentage on the first 120K or so of income. Because it isn't a straight up welfare redistribution program...rather a ponzi scheme savings program. your benefit is loosely based on how much you paid in.
Never retiring.... I'm working till the day i DIE! Point blank. Never will I be a slave to the SSI. The people I know on it ain't happy. I'm going out like a king that dies of old age, hopefully I'm as passionate about it as I am now... I probably need another Obama in the white house passing laws so I can be like
"This one... this one has gone TOO FAR!" *slams golden staff against ground* *cough, cough*
*angrily continues writing off taxes as business expenses* *cough,cough*
Never retiring.... I'm working till the day i DIE! Point blank. Never will I be a slave to the SSI. The people I know on it ain't happy. I'm going out like a king that dies of old age, hopefully I'm as passionate about it as I am now... I probably need another Obama in the white house passing laws so I can be like
"This one... this one has gone TOO FAR!" *slams golden staff against ground* *cough, cough*
*angrily continues writing off taxes as business expenses* *cough,cough*
american socialist|5.14.16 @ 1:05PM|#
"without looking it up, it's 6.25% from me and 6.25% from my employer. Did I get it right? That's near the rate-- unless, of course, you are rich. Then it's much less."
Yeah, shitbag, see below:
"The stupidest thing about SSI is that it functions as a transfer of wealth from poor to rich in many cases. Here I am, earning what many would consider a poverty wage, having money taken from every paycheck so that it can be paid to people like my father, who retired making six figures a year."
Lefty assholes love them some Ponzi schemes!
The stupidest thing about SSI is that it functions as a transfer of wealth from poor to rich in many cases. Here I am, earning what many would consider a poverty wage, having money taken from every paycheck so that it can be paid to people like my father, who retired making six figures a year.
Yep incentives how do they work? Can you show why they aren't getting out of being poor?
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Americansocialist is the most selfish person I have ever come across.
Your SSI payments will keep AmSoc supplied with cheap wine and turkey pot pies until he keels over from being 500 lbs overweight.
But it only you gave AS abject power over your life and let him make all of your personal and financial decisions for you, you would be in utopia. Cause he knows better than you how to spend your hard earned money. Remember how great feudalism worked?
Please. I have a 401k account too. I can use spreadsheets and have calculated that I'll be able to hit many more buffet bars on Carnival Cruises if I'm making an extra 3 grand a month from Social Security.
Wash your hands and carry hand sanitizer on those cruises.
http://www.cruiseminus.com/cruise-ship-norovirus/
"how to avoid Norovirus on cruise ships"
Stay away from cruise ships.
There you go!
"I can use spreadsheets"
Math for dummies
" and have calculated that I'll be able to hit many more buffet bars on Carnival Cruises if I'm making an extra 3 grand a month from Social Security."
In which case you entered the numbers wrong. You ain't getting shit, pal; it'll be all gone.
If the welfare state actually lived up to the slogan "a trampoline, not a hammock," it might provide desperately broke and sick people with a kind of pit stop where they got their act together before going out into the economy and resuming the struggle. That might potentially encourage income mobility - not letting people crash and burn, picking them up, dusting them off, and giving them a shove back into the real world.
But if the welfare state is a hammock, giving unambitious people a life of sucking off the government teat, that will make inequality *worse,* since it will dull ambition and encourage people to be content with the narcotic of dependency and not the Red Bull of competition.
(not a literal endorsement of Red Bull)
I hope people just rob the hell out of those welfare offices. Nothing but a tribe of ppl who work there.
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"We can't tax our way to greater income mobility"
not with that attitude!
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RE: Federal Programs Keep People Poor
Of course federal programs keep people poor.
Otherwise they would have to get off Uncle Sam's plantation and fend for themselves, think for themselves and make decisions by themselves.
Uncle Sam can't have that.
Otherwise the slaves will leave his plantation.
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Taxes may have an effect, but government regulation, federal, state, local have an even larger effect. More and more occupations require a government "license", and in some cases, committing any kind of "felony" (including those that didn't harm anyone) is sufficient to prevent you from ever being able to work in certain occupations. Or obtain the necessary government license to work in fields like home improvement. Here in Michigan you are required to have a "contractor's license" to do even simple tasks like pouring concrete for a driveway. Or shingle a roof. Nor can you ever work as a security guard. Then too, even for relatively simple tasks today you often need a government issued license just to braid hair or wash it! Increasingly more and more occupations now require some form of "license" to do. Where I live technically you need a permit from the city to go around offering to cut grass, rake leaves, or shovel snow. "Land of Opportunity?" Not any more today...
Poverty is the natural condition of mankind. It'd not Santa Claus or politicians who make our lives better - it's entrepreneurs and capitalist laboring in their own rational self interest. "It's the economy, stupid."
my best friend's mom makes $74 an hour on the computer . She has been without work for five months but last month her payment was $19746 just working on the computer for a few hours. find more information ...
?????????? http://www.factoryofincome.com
My last pay check was $9500 working 12 hours a week online. My sisters friend has been averaging 15k for months now and she works about 20 hours a week. I can't believe how easy it was once I tried it out.
This is what I do?????? http://www.realcash44.com
I'm making over $9k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do.... Go to tech tab for work detail..
CLICK THIS LINK===== http://www.cashapp24.com/
I am making $89/hour working from home. I never thought that it was legitimate but my best friend is earning $10 thousand a month by working online, that was really surprising for me, she recommended me to try it. just try it out on the following website.
??? http://www.NetNote70.com
I am making $89/hour working from home. I never thought that it was legitimate but my best friend is earning $10 thousand a month by working online, that was really surprising for me, she recommended me to try it. just try it out on the following website.
============ http://www.Path50.com
Start making cash right now... Get more time with your family by doing jobs that only require for you to have a computer and an internet access and you can have that at your home. Start bringing up to $8012 a month. I've started this job and I've never been happier and now I am sharing it with you, so you can try it too. You can check it out here...------------------------- http://www.cash-spot.com