Brickbat: Classroom Discipline

Credit: incognito2020 / photo on flickr

Murfreesboro, Tennessee, police are refusing to say exactly how many students they handcuffed and arrested at a local elementary school or exactly what the children are charged with. But parents say at least 10 children, ages 8 through 11, were arrested for "criminal responsibility for conduct of another." They say their children were arrested for not breaking up a fight that happened off school grounds several days before the arrests.

Comments

[Adans smith]

How many kids were tazed or pepper sprayed ? Di any reach for their waistband? Did the officers make it home unharmed?

[The Hyperbole]

"... the first thing they learn is the police are there to punish them, and they are not there to help them."

He says that like it's a bad thing.

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No reason to sugarcoat career day

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[Deep Lurker]

A common theocratic argument is "If there is no God, then anything is permitted." That applies even more strongly here:

If there is nothing wrong with arresting and handcuffing elementary school children, then there's no basis to say that anything else done to them is "wrong." No matter how extreme.

Shoot the kids down in cold blood? What's wrong with that? If you think it's OK to arrest and handcuff those kids, the you have no moral leg to stand on if you try to object when a fellow cop shoots them between the eyes.

Seize them under "civil forfeiture" and sell them to Islamists as sex slaves? Hey, the department needs the money! More, the department deserves the money. And there's no reason to balk at improving the budget that way - not when arresting and handcuffing is approved procedure.

Cut them up and roast them for food, as suggested by Mr. Swift? If handcuffing is allowed, then why not? No reason at all why not.

(Excuse me now. I need to go vomit.)

[Mr Lizard]

"Cut them up and roast them for food, as suggested by Mr. Swift"

Well grilling is the prefered mammal preparation method

[Eman]

babies, being so young, would be basically human veal (tasteless and overpriced). So yeah, grill or saute probably

[Radioactive]

a nice braise perhaps?

[Shirley Knott]

Nah, braising is best for old tough meat with lots of connective tissue. Baby fat probably renders out quickly -- grill or roast.

[Will Nonya]

With some farver beans and a nice Chianti?

[sloopyinTEXAS]

I don't know where you're getting your veal, but they're doing it wrong.

[Agammamon]

From Costco. 1000 at a time!

http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/ 146478/Golden-Breaded-Veal-Patties.htm

[Unauthorized Journalist]

The important thing is they were arrested for not doing something.

No greater crime could exist.

[Brochettaward]

Aren't all citizens supposed to just dial 911 and curl up into the fetal position when there's trouble, anyway?

[Notorious UGCC]

Yeah, the authorities need some message discipline.

[Eman]

if people rubbed each other's backs any way they wanted to, that would be anarchy.

[Notorious UGCC]

message, not massage, prevert.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Let's contrast this with the story of the teens drowning in a submerged car after a police chase. The police who had engaged the young drivers stood back and listened to the screams but took no action to help. They were under no obligation to risk their own lives to save others. The kids died.

[Mr Lizard]

A pitch black swampy pond in Pinellas county is not a welcome place for any warm blooded creature. Many of my cousins lurk in that very pond

[Fist of Etiquette]

And it could be argued that a tussle with fists and feet flying is no place for an elementary school student to step in.

[Notorious UGCC]

So they enthusiastically milk the racial angle throughout the article, but -

"At least five of the 10 children reportedly involved are black."

So up to half of the kids *might be* white.

Before going into a masturbatory frenzy about racism, wouldn't it be the responsible thing to do to make sure that a majority of "the children reportedly involved" were black?

[Notorious UGCC]

And it's so cute that they quote "social justice experts," because how would we know what to think without one of those experts?

[Akira]

Haha! "Social justice expert" is probably like "community organizer", e.g. some title that can be claimed by any bloviating windbag with no qualifications whatsoever.

[Deep Lurker]

OTOH, sometimes the authorities commit crimes so heinious that even "social justice experts" can recognize the wrongness of them.

[Notorious UGCC]

For what it's worth:

Tenn. Code Ann. ? 39-11-402 (2016)

39-11-402. Criminal responsibility for conduct of another.

A person is criminally responsible for an offense committed by the conduct of another, if:

(1) Acting with the culpability required for the offense, the person causes or aids an innocent or irresponsible person to engage in conduct prohibited by the definition of the offense;

(2) Acting with intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense, or to benefit in the proceeds or results of the offense, the person solicits, directs, aids, or attempts to aid another person to commit the offense; or

(3) Having a duty imposed by law or voluntarily undertaken to prevent commission of the offense and acting with intent to benefit in the proceeds or results of the offense, or to promote or assist its commission, the person fails to make a reasonable effort to prevent commission of the offense.

[Radioactive]

huh?

[Notorious UGCC]

I'm not trying to interpret it for you, just giving what it says.

[Rich]

Acting with the culpability required for the offense, the person causes or aids an innocent or irresponsible person to engage in conduct prohibited by the definition of the offense

Get with it, Radioactive. That's a perfectly cromulent statute!

[Radioactive]

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...guilty. Now I understand.

[Suthenboy]

The kids who were arrested apparently egged the fight on. It isnt that they didn't stop the fight, they 'directed' it.

[kbolino]

Acting with the culpability required for the offense, the person causes or aids an innocent or irresponsible person to engage in conduct prohibited by the definition of the offense

What are the legal definitions of these words? Awfully weaselly to throw them in there. Just say "another person". Legislators gonna legislate, I guess.

Having a duty imposed by law or voluntarily undertaken to prevent commission of the offense and acting with intent to benefit in the proceeds or results of the offense, or to promote or assist its commission

Seems to me that the arrest was wrongful, but I doubt there will be any consequences to the arresting officers.

[B. Woodrow Chippenhaus]

(3) Having a duty imposed by law or voluntarily undertaken to prevent commission of the offense and acting with intent to benefit in the proceeds or results of the offense, or to promote or assist its commission, the person fails to make a reasonable effort to prevent commission of the offense.

This seems to be the likeliest aspect of this statute they'll try to say these kids violated. But children certainly have no duty by law to prevent schoolyard fights, nor can they consent to such a duty voluntarily, as they're minors.

[kbolino]

nor can they consent to such a duty voluntarily, as they're minors

Given the wording of the statute, consent is irrelevant. They may still enjoy an exception for lack of legal agency, though.

[Brochettaward]

Well, what the hell does it mean when it says "duty...voluntarily undertaken?"

[kbolino]

Contract?

[sloopyinTEXAS]

Yeah, that jumped out at me too. How can something be ones "duty " yet be voluntary? Especially without a contract signed?

I would like to see someone arrest the next cop that pulls up on a hostage situation and takes cover behind his cruiser. Because that meets the definition of this statute a lot more than these kids do that are under no obligation to do anything on the state's behalf.

[Suthenboy]

They take a job as a security guard.

[Agammamon]

Things like Lifeguard or working as a personal assistant for someone (elderly or disabled) to tend to their medical/care needs imposes extra legal duties on that person - duties considered 'voluntarily taken'.

Let's say a home nurse who encourages his/her charge to commit suicide. Could be charged under this statute as suicide is illegal in most states.

[Rufus The Monocled Derp Slayer]

Is that like the 'Good Samaritan' law they busted Seinfeld with?

Seriously. Handcuffing children is about as low as the cops can go. It's an example of how there seems to be an absences of general civility and common sense and respect between citizens and law enforcement.

Think of it. YOU'RE A GROWN MAN WITH A BADGE PUTTING HANDCUFFS ON A CHILD. AS IT CLIPS ON THEIR TINY WRISTS.

And they're gonna hide behind policy and procedure? FUCK OFF. We all know they apply that selectively.

Pieces of shits.

It's a disgusting story.

[Demoted Comment (Slammer)]

There are sickos who get off on that shit. That's why they're cops, because they couldn't get away with it in any other context.

[Agammamon]

AS IT CLIPS ON THEIR TINY WRISTS.

That's why they use zipties.

[Agammamon]

The only part of that that seems to apply is (3) and, last time I checked, *nobody* has a 'duty imposed by law' to prevent commission of a crime, let alone elementary school kids having a duty to prevent an off-school fight.

This is just another 'arrest them, we'll figure out what to charge them with later' situations.

[Brett L]

I would take out a mortgage to sue the fuck out of everyone involved who did that to a kid Iwas guardian of.

[Demoted Comment (Slammer)]

The Murfreesboro police chief on Sunday cited the incident as a learning experience, a chance to "make things better so they don't happen again."

Unreal.

[Jerryskids]

So were the kids supposed to commit assault and battery on the combatants to get them to stop fighting? I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to do that unless you're a cop. Then you can handcuff a kid for any reason you can imagine.

[kbolino]

Hence, the paradox. Had they intervened, they would be considered participants under the standards of "zero tolerance", and thus they could be disciplined for fighting. It's a nice little Catch-22, isn't it?

[Cyto]

Oddly this is not an unusual position for those in authority. Some 30+ years ago I ran into a similar situation while in college:

Our intramural basketball team had a game scheduled while I was in a chemistry lab, so I missed it, as did a couple of other guys. But a fight broke out on the court. Guys from both benches ran out and got in the fray. A bunch of other guys jumped in and broke it up pretty quickly.

Now, the league rules say that if you are involved in a fight, you are kicked out of intramural sports forever. So that's what they did. They also kicked out all of the guys who tried to break up the fight, because they shouldn't have left the bench - that's against the rules. But they only got suspended for 2 years. Then there was the guy on our team who stayed seated on the bench, as the rules say he should. He got kicked out for the rest of the season because "you have a duty to help prevent violence and you did nothing to help. You cannot stand idly by while others are fighting." Uh.... Ok.

And then there was the guys who didn't make it to the game. We got called in to the Dean of Student Affairs office and reprimanded. We were put on notice and warned not to let anything like this happen again. Because.... Uh.... I'm not sure why. But we had to apologize and promise to do better, even though we had no involvement at all, being 2 miles away on the other side of campus.

Nobody in authority was able to comprehend the contradictions.

[kbolino]

Nobody in authority was able to comprehend the contradictions.

Nobody in authority had any reason to. The incentives at their level are so skewed that it basically guarantees the outcomes we have as the norm. They're not penalized for making unworkable rules and they're not rewarded for pointing out the unworkability of rules; they're penalized for failing to provide the appearance that the rules are workable.

[Rich]

"(arresting them for not intervening) is the most amazing paradox of our society"

Well, *one* of the most amazing paradoxes, perhaps.

[Rufus The Monocled Derp Slayer]

"Scott Parker
They are old enough to cause trouble, they did so they were handcuffed. Next time this guy wants to pretend he has children rather than Cretins in training, he should make sure, the press doesn't get a chance to interview the teachers.
Like ? Reply ? 26 ? Apr 19, 2016 5:25am"

I CAN'T TAKE ASSHOLES LIKE SCOTT PARKER ANYMORE.

These 'bad ass tough on crime' pieces of shits seriously need a fucking beating.

[kbolino]

Apparently not fighting makes you a cretin now.

[Rufus The Monocled Derp Slayer]

The lack of sense, perspective and morality in assholes like this - let's call them David French's Children - is sickening.

[Demoted Comment (Slammer)]

How many charges would a non-cop have if they handcuffed a child?

[straffinrun]

The kids who saw the cop handcuffing children should be arrested for not actively trying to stop him.

[Rich]

Not to mention the kids that didn't make a citizen's arrest of *those* kids.

[Meriwether3]

The cops who witnessed other cops handcuffing children should be arrested for not actively trying to stop them.

[Rufus The Monocled Derp Slayer]

It's amazing someone, I assume of course, didn't think to themselves, 'Hm, this doesn't seem...right'.

Heroes my FUCKEN ASS.

[straffinrun]

Or at least put them on paid leave for a while. They hate that, I've head.

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[Suthenboy]

I am pretty sure that the kids were arrested for promoting, encouraging, egging the fight on. They directed an innocent or irresponsible (minor) to commit a crime (assault). Never mind that they are innocent or irresponsible persons themselves.

Officer hammer saw some nails. What other outcome would you expect?

Despite the actions of the CJ system being out of line, the article reads like bullshit. They hammer away at the racial angle and the 'cops are out of control' angle yet leave out too much info. Fights between kids of that age are common. Why did this one get so much attention? Is there a chronic problem with fights in that community? Did one of the kids get seriously injured? A parent complain? How did the cops get involved in the first place?

[Rufus The Monocled Derp Slayer]

Call me crazy or liberal or even soft but...don't handcuff children. You don't need to HANDCUFF kids for being stupid. It's not productive and dare I say barbaric.

Sorry.

[sarcasmic]

Police must handcuff everyone. They handcuff the dead bodies of the people they kill, so of course they're going to cuff children. It's for their safety, you know?

[Mainer2]

They also handcuff people they've shot while they bleed out and die.

[Suthenboy]

No need to apologize, I agree with you Rufus.

[Robert]

And then there was the guy on Staten Is. who was killed by police after he broke up a fight.

"criminal responsibility for conduct of another," which according to Tennessee criminal offense code includes incidents when a "person fails to make a reasonable effort to prevent" an offense.

Like if you leave your door unlocked, & you're burglarized?

This is one of those tantalizing stories wherein only enough to be mysterious is reported. Any inside info on what this was really about?

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[Robert]

That's what started the fight?

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