Libya

U.S. Considering 'Military Options' to Stem Rise of Islamic State in Libya

We have always been at war with terror, or Libya, or ISIS, or whoever

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ISIS

As the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) grows its influence on the ground in Libya, the Pentagon says it's considering "military options" to prevent the would-be caliphate's growth in a third oil-rich nation in the Middle East/North Africa.

President Obama and former Secretary of State and current Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton both say they understand how the prosecution of the Iraq War contributed to the rise of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS)—the war created a power vacuum within which extremist forces like Al-Qaeda were able to organize and evolve, and from which ISIS eventually emerged.

They say they understand the connection, but perhaps they only understand the political expediency of being able to blame ISIS on George W. Bush, a member of the other party. Certainly, neither has yet appeared to articulate an understanding of how the 2011 U.S.-led intervention in Libya, which led to the toppling of the Qaddafi regime, created a power vacuum within which extremist forces like Al-Qaeda were able to organize, and which ISIS eventually took advantage of to secure its own stronghold outside its Iraq-Syria mainland.

As Sen. Rand Paul (Ky.), the only Republican presidential candidate who appears to understand how George W. Bush's policies contributed to the rise of ISIS, rightly points out that understanding the negative consequences of interventionist foreign policy is critical to formulating foreign policy that can avoid those consequences.

That's about to get even more important. Obama, Clinton, and the Democratic foreign policy establishment can't pin the blame on the ISIS presence in Libya on George W. Bush. In fact, under the Bush administration, U.S.-Libya relations even began to normalize somewhat after Col. Qaddafi unilaterally offered to give up his chemical and nuclear weapons research. But when the U.S. insisted it had an international "responsibility to protect" the people of Libya from the threat of massacre by their government, President Obama—who had made nuclear disarmament one of his early foreign policy goals—did not even mention how U.S. military action against Libya less than a decade after it agreed to disarmament might discourage other states from giving up their potential nuclear arsenals.

In the nearly five years since the U.S.-led intervention, Libya has spiraled into chaos. There are currently two competing governments, plus ISIS' would-be state in Sirte. Weapons and fighters flooded out of Libya after the intervention, destabilizing countries from Nigeria to Syria. On September 11, 2012, militants attacked the U.S. complex in Benghazi, killing the U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other Americans. It's unclear what the U.S. was doing in Libya then, what motivated the attackers or, for that matter, what the U.S. is doing in Libya now.

And that the Pentagon is now considering military options against ISIS doesn't change any of that. Using military force is not a comprehensive strategy. Even that, apparently, was not a lesson learned from Iraq. Incidentally, in an interview on the BBC tonight, former Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel noted that the U.S.'s "Assad must go" strategy in Syria was constricting U.S. options on ISIS, an organization Hagel said the U.S. had "underestimated." So U.S. foreign policy makers still haven't grasped how toppling regimes without considering the consequences can aggravate instability.

Not long ago, in his final State of the Union, President Obama mocked Sen. Ted Cruz, another Republican presidential candidate, for suggesting he wanted to carpet bomb ISIS. But the U.S. is dropping so many bombs on ISIS its running out of ordnance. And now it's pondering a new strategy for ISIS in Libya, of dropping even more bombs, and supporting even more "moderate rebels." The difference in flavor on rhetoric doesn't matter when the policies are largely simplistic in the same way, especially to the people who end up having bombs dropped on them.

Related: ISIS is Expanding. Should U.S. Military Bases Abroad Expand Too?

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  1. OH THANK GOD

    I was just wondering how Libya was doing.

    1. Even better having one of the architects of the present Libya fiasco to vote for ! Who better to fix something she helped break !

      1. “Dad?!? I promise I’ll help glue the lamp back together!!!”

        1. C’mon, your kids know the phrase:
          “Dad, it BROKE!”

          1. Learning the passive voice early now…

            1. That’s why we need HM to explain again why “it broke” grammatically isn’t passive but everyone understands that it’s passive.

  2. We came, we saw, he died. Hahaha – yeah, hilarious Hillary.

    1. Seriously what an awful person she is. http://levantreport.com/2016/0…..-and-gold/

    2. Well at least when conquerors of old got around to the conquering phase things generally started to stabilize. These days we don’t have either the moral reasons nor the balls to actually conquer so the ending isn’t so happy for anybody.

      1. It’s like throwing a grenade into Chick Fil A and claiming victory in the aftermath.

        1. A victory for tolerance?

        2. …and then calling them for a big take-out order.

  3. Libya has spiraled into chaos. There are currently two competing governments, plus ISIS’ would-be state in Sirte.

    But ? isn’t competition supposed to be *good*?

    1. Good thing that thug Qaddafi is not around anymore. You would have thought the one glaring lesson in Saddam’s removal would be that a known bad guy who keeps things under relative control and contains them within his borders is better than multiple even worse guys not just fighting each other but also, willing to export the violence.

      1. Hey, I have it on good Canadian authority that if Saddam was still there the situation would be even worse!

        1. Someone really needs to add ‘Argumentum ad alternis historia’ to the list of logical fallacies.

          1. but without the alternis, historia wouldn’t be nearly as much fun.

          2. Oh God the irony….

            So the implied alt reality where Sadaam is in charge and everything is better…somehow…is okay, but not if I make the argument that there are reasons to believe this reality would be worse?

            1. Well, see Cytotoxic, when people suggest that Saddam was a better alternative, they base this on a thing called reality and the actual history of Iraq. His reign, while certainly awful, wasn’t a failed state filled with religious maniacs. Suggesting that Saddam would have kept a bloody peace is still absolutely a guessing game, but it’s at least somewhat backed up by his record. No one suggesting that Saddam might have been better is basing this on a desire to see Saddam in power or actual support for the man.

              What you have is a magical declaration that you which just so happen to know exactly what outcomes would occur and that those outcomes just so happen to match up exactly with your positions. In short, your credibility is garbage because it’s obvious that your fantasy Iraq is blatant projection of your views.

        2. There’s no reason to believe it would be better. See ‘Assad’ and ‘Syria’ for what could be.

      2. “willing to export the violence.”

        The problem here is that Libya under Qaddhafi already exported violence. Libyans featured prominently in Jihadism. Even B2TF referenced this.

        America should not go around toppling dictators but this notion that strongmen could give us peace is just wrong. If they did then Syria would be more peaceful than Libya and it’s not. These strongmen types from Tito to Assad engender the conditions that lead to civil war in their country.

        1. Are you suggesting the Syrian war was just the result of a purely domestic uprising? Kinda ignores Qatar, Turkey, Saudi, French, US actions in the funding the insurgency. Shit ambassador Stevens was meeting with his Turkish counterpart the day he died organizing moving weapons and takfiri head choppers from Libya to Syria.

  4. What does Trump think about this?

    /Sarc

    /Oh God

    1. Is it sad that compared with Hillary, Bernie, or Bush I actually think Trump may have a better response ? Yea, it is sad, but probably because it is true. Fuck my life.

      1. Yeah, well what about Hitler?

  5. What is “TKTKTK”?

  6. So Bush is back in office?

      1. Got a hell of a tan, din’t he? And his health insurance scheme sucks.

        1. Something also happened to Laura, something terrible.

          1. I hear she killed a guy in high school.

            1. That one who was snoring too loud?

    1. It’s not that Bush is still in office. The problem is that most people are not aware that Libya exists inside a “Non-Obama-Influenced” force field. Everything that has happened there since 2008 cannot possibly be connected to anything which Obama did or failed to do. This extends to anything coming from Libya as well.

      1. Wait, you think the public is aware that Libya exists at all? Or that anything has happened there since 2008? You are too optimistic.

        1. Having lived outside the US for a couple decades I have comen to see that many Americans see the world outside the US as something like a TV show. They know the main characters, know the story line, but in their minds it’s not really happening.

      2. To be fair I doubt that place would be any better off if America had not done anything there.

    2. Eh. Bush wasn’t great, but at least he understand, at least in Iraq, then you need an occupation army, you can’t just remove power and expect the vacuum to be filled peacefully in a few years.

      The surge worked until Obama pulled the troops out.

      1. JeremyR|1.27.16 @ 11:06PM|#
        “The surge worked until Obama pulled the troops out.”

        So, it’d all be great if we left a couple hundred thou troops on permanent duty there?
        Yeah, that ‘works’; you pay for ’em, OK?

      2. “The surge worked until Obama pulled the troops out.”

        Then it didn’t work.

      3. The surge worked until Obama pulled the troops out.

        By all means, let’s surge for several years decades generations. How long should a war against a second world nation reasonably last?

        1. As long as toxic gets his rocks off killing brown people.

      4. You do know that Obama pulled the troops out based on the timeline Bush negotiated with the Iraqis, right? He did try to negotiate a longer stay, but since they are a sovereign country and all, we kind of needed to leave, even if that meant letting them stand on their own.

        1. Forget it; he’s rolling.

      5. The problem is distrust between the shia and sunni (and kurds). The Iraqis are just not ready for representational government because of the distrust between sects. Until they can develop basic trust of the individual they will forever be tribal. It matters not who is in charge. Saddam Hussein succeeded only through the threat of violence and death. They need either another strong man or a separate state for each tribe. The best solution is to divide the country into three areas: one for the sunni; one for the shia; and one for the kurds. And maybe a fourth for the smaller groups like the marsh arabs.

  7. My new litimus test.

    Is it worth borrowing money for ?

    1. I like this one.

  8. If nothing else, ISIS (Islamic State in Iraq ans Syria) or ISIL (Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant) is going to have to change their name to include much of Africa, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Eastern Europe, and wherever they go next.

    1. The name was already shortened to “Islamic State” but most people still call them ISIS because it’s easy to say and generally unambiguous (the ancient Egyption goddess notwithstanding).

      I’m sure they wouldn’t mind if you just called them “The Caliphate”, though.

  9. If you experience warboners in excess of four years, seek immediate medical attention.

    1. … or yank that sucker out by the roots

  10. This seems belated. Joe “I got this shit covered” Biden announced that the US and Turkey had a military plan in place for the destruction of ISIS 4 days ago

    1. I got five bucks on ‘Restore the Ottoman Empire’.

    2. Lemme guess, bet on coyote brown and desert camo being a fashion thing for US troops for a while longer?

    3. You misspelled “the Kurds”.

      1. Perhaps they will destroy some kurds too. Eggs, omelets.

  11. Seems stupid to attack the specific organization of ISIS without recognizing the problem of the underlying ideology of Muslim supremacism that is providing the fuel for the fire and the justification for the worst atrocities, and is motivating like-minded hate groups in other places.

    Of course, if we were to recognize that, we would also have to inconveniently recognize that some of our so-called “allies” are promoting the same ideology. But what’s the point of fighting the KKK (extralegal MuSup radical terrorist groups) while tolerating Jim Crow (Sharia law in “legit” countries)? Especially since it’s Jim Crow that helps legitimize the actions of the KKK, and, with the full resources of an established state at its disposal, it’s Jim Crow that does the greater harm overall.

    1. Deja-fucking-vu all over again – copy-paste that one more time and I believe most of us will have it memorized.

  12. Can’t wait to hear Hillary brag about her record as Secretary of State.

    1. Well, I guess then that at THIS point it will be making a difference?

  13. Huh…I found an article by Jazz Shaw on police abuse, and it actually didn’t suck much.

    When is a dog worth more than a quarter million dollars?

    Out in Colorado we learned the answer to the question in the title of this post. A dog can be worth a lot of money if somebody shoots it for no good reason, and that includes police officers. (Yahoo News)
    […]
    This case was outrageous when it first hit the news and it’s no less disgusting now. The cop involved in the shooting was charged with animal cruelty, but was acquitted. I have no idea why. There’s a video out there of the shooting (filmed by a neighbor) but I won’t even link to it here because it’s so disturbing. The dog in this case was not attacking the officer or anyone else and, in fact, was cowering in fear. … While that’s the owner’s fault and not the dog’s, there will still unfortunately be times when a dog has to be dispatched. That wasn’t the case here.

    Of course, he had to go and ruin it a bit with this:

    As a side note, when I was discussing this case with a couple of friends one of them remarked that I seem to have more sympathy for dogs than I do for criminal suspects and I come down harder on the cops in defense of an animal than some human beings. I can’t really argue with that one.

    1. Jazz Shaw this fucking marmalade font bespokes. Well… Jazz Shaw is the name of my drug dealer, babe. She wears mini skirts and always grabs me by the throat when I get a bag of heroine from her and I think her shit is too serious for fucking shit but I am a dreamer and she is hated by the government so I get that she kicks me in the FUCKING throat and crap but I been buying from her for years. SHIT!

      1. a bag of heroine

        How many heroines are in a bag?

    2. Ruin it? Sad Fedora Man should be praised for his keen sense of self-awareness. Dude has no illusions about himself.

      1. That was funny. His hat wasn’t even a fedora. It was more of a trilby.

  14. time now could be copy pasta since baby jesus stroked his penis….
    War and its shrill bullets and angry zeals line every century
    and most of this shit is due to fucking heaven seeking assholes or rpg bureaucrats who enjoy tromping through thick layers of civilians kneeling all soft and shit under the holidays and crap.

  15. “And that the Pentagon is now considering military options against ISIS doesn’t change any of that.”

    If the Pentagon isn’t considering military options against ISIS, then whomever is in charge should be fired immediately and someone competent should be put in his or her place.

    The Pentagon should have working plans ready to meet any potential threat to American security from anywhere in the world. If they don’t have a plan to invade North Korea, Russia, Iran, and China, either individually or collectively, then why do we have such incompetent people running the Pentagon? And if we should have working plans ready to invade every one of our potential enemies, then why we wouldn’t we have one against ISIS?

    Whether we should execute any particular plan is another question entirely. Whether we should have a plan ready isn’t even a worthy topic of discussion. Don’t worry about what we’ll do if the building catches on fire–we’ll figure it out once the alarms go off and the place starts burning down? Just because I’m a libertarian doesn’t mean I have to play stupid.

      1. Well that’s my point, really.

        We should have a plan to invade anywhere int eh world we might need to invade.

        I rerun my scenarios on my projects several times a week. What if instead of building it out and leasing, I sell the buildings? What if I only build out half and self the other half of the land? What if I don’t build and just sell the land instead? What if I lease and hold? What if I sell the buildings individually? As a group to a REIT?

        At all times, I know exactly what I’m doing and why. As things change, so do my plans–but I have plans ready for anything.

        Why wouldn’t the Pentagon be at least as diligent as I am? Their legitimate responsibility in a libertarian world is to protect our rights from foreign threats. They should have a plan to invade any spot in the world where a threat to our rights may be. And those plans should be updated regularly.

        Hell, the Pentagon should have a plan to retake Seattle if its invaded by a foreign power. I’m not alarmed if the Pentagon has a plan to invade Seattle. I’d be relieved to learn that somebody in the government somewhere might be semi-competent.

        1. Journalists have a tendency of confusing having war plans (the actual job of any competent military) with implementing said plan.

    1. If Ken looked into the scary ghost stories of the past lurking behind his grave he’d find that all his super duper radar coding imagination crap would matter about as much as all the running humans in the ancient days. Ken, Agile, Reason, and all the bitches can’t save no sins.

      the future is built on the tables of the billionaires and we are the scat screaming into the willows, boy.

      1. Hope for the best; plan for the worst.

        That’s all I’m sayin’.

        Well, that and, “Illegetimi non carborundum!”

        1. well ken is a lovely boy to be sure

    2. We war game the fuck out of every place on the map…..except for Libya, we can’t wargame that. We have no experience with the results of overthrowing Islamic nations and dictators which could result in the rise of violence and we would never plan for contingencies like the embassy being attacked and maybe have rapid response units like the 173rd sitting in Italy ready to go and send them to assist…..at least not when the specter of “Desert One” and an election close by looming exists.

      I think my goal is not to be deployed around the time of the next election. Fuck my life.

      1. well, yes. sleighbells of hells pulverized randomly based on dummy militaristic shitty fuck bulbs. This is modern Murica. Get used to it, strong boys and girls. Your military is about as smart as wallpaper.

      2. Yeah, 18 years and change on the meter – hoping to roll through to 20 without getting sand in my boots. Too old for that now (aren’t we all?).

    3. Ken, you and I both know they have any number of plans for military options against ISIS. My assumption about this most recent “considering” phase simply means evaluating which of those plans best matches the “goals” – stated, implied, or expected – given to them by the administration.

      1. Just for the record, I oppose putting troops on the ground in Libya–and for many of the same reasons why I opposed the invasion of Iraq.

        I support having a plan to do so.

        My guess is this is some kind of trial balloon. They want to gauge how much opposition there would be by floating the idea out there in the press.

        1. Myself, I also oppose putting troops in Syria for personal reasons – since I could be one of those troops (reservist) and don’t think the issue is one to send any Americans out to get involved in.

          With the current administration the pentagon now has to be doing due diligence for both the military and political outcomes from any engagement we get into. Regardless of what Obama and his group “think” about a situation you can bet they have overlooked or underestimated any number of factors which will put leave over-extended military swinging in the wind if they don’t consider those issues themselves. So when the braindead media reports that the pentagon is “considering” something you know it means that they are shuffling through pre-registered plans and adjusting for relevant changes.

          1. I don’t want to see ground troops in Syria either. I would expect that to end up very much like Iraq did.

            The problems we’re seeing in the Muslim world are inter-generational, social and cultural changes–much like what happened in Europe during the Enlightenment and the Reformation.

            There were plenty of wars fought over that stuff in Europe, too. No particular war was the solution to those social and cultural changes, and invading Syria won’t do anything to stop the process of cultural and social change in Syria or the rest of the Muslim world either.

            The real world solutions to social and cultural change don’t necessarily sink up to our four year election cycles. It will take decades for the forces that have been unleashed in the Muslim world to play themselves out. The best we can hope for in coming decades is to worry about our own security interests–protect our own territory, our own people, and our rights. Our military is not the solution to cultural and social change in the Muslim world. How could it be?

              1. You new what I meant.

                1. I guess I just didn’t here it or couldn’t sea it.

            1. No but ISIS is just a side-effect of that cultural chance and it needs solving. The US military and ground forces may just be a necessary solution to that problem.

              1. Ccytotoxic|1.27.16 @ 11:31PM|#
                “No but ISIS is just a side-effect of that cultural chance and it needs solving. The US military and ground forces may just be a necessary solution to that problem.”

                Fuck you with an ISIS dick. Get lost.

                1. Thanks for the typically insightful post Sevo. Maybe you and the coatrack you’ve dressed up as your late wife can delve into further detail.

                  1. Cytotoxic|1.27.16 @ 11:42PM|#
                    “Thanks for the typically insightful post Sevo.”
                    Fuck you for your normal stupidity, asshole.

              2. “No but ISIS is just a side-effect of that cultural chance and it needs solving.

                It’s part of that change. So is the Muslim Brotherhood. So was Al Qaeda.

                Our military is not the solution to the Muslim world’s struggle with modernity and all that entails.

                If we wiped out ISIS, the cultural and social forces that created it would remain.

                1. All the Islamist and terrorist groups that have emerged since the end of colonialism–in all different parts of the Muslim world. And we’re not even just talking about Sunnis.

                  There are the people who rose up against the modernization efforts of Ataturk–that was in the 1930s. There was the emergence of extremism in Pakistan after partition. There was the Algerian War in the ’50s and ’60s. There was the emergence of Egyptian Islamic Jihad. There was the emergence of the Ayatollah Khomeini’s movement in opposition to the Shah in Iran. There was the emergence of Hezbollah in Syria and Lebanon. The Mujaheddin, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban in Afghanistan. . . . we haven’t even started talking about the Palestinians, and there are plenty more where those came from in the Philippines, central Asia, and elsewhere.

                  But if we take out ISIS, that’s gonna fix it?

                  The cultural and social changes that made ISIS have been in play for decades already, and it will take them decades more to play out entirely. Taking out ISIS (even if we could) wouldn’t address those cultural and social forces.

                  1. Let’s concentrate on doing what we can to protect ourselves. When ISIS attacks we should retaliate, by all means, but putting troops on the ground in Syria won’t even address (much less fix) cultural and social change.

                    It’s like trying to fix what’s wrong with inner city communities by way of the Drug War. The police aren’t the solution to what makes people drop out of school, get pregnant as teenagers, join gangs, or use drugs. If anything, using the police to address those problems makes things worse.

            2. “…Our military is not the solution to cultural and social change in the Muslim world. How could it be?”

              Eeny, meeny, miny, mo………..
              It’s hard to decide which murderer-dictator to hate more, but Hitler is a valid contender, since he was the proximate cause of a war which suggested the US military *could* do that. Ike in Europe, Mac in Japan, and by appearances, they did make it happen.
              It’s not true, of course; the circumstances in both locations had nothing to do with the dysfunction in the near- and mid-east, but to those who wallow in ‘the greatest generation’ BS, it’s a hard sell.

              1. Japan and Germany are different for a number of reasons, the extremes we were willing to go to in order to defeat them being one.

                If you want to drop nuclear bombs on the Muslim world, like we did with Japan, or reduce cities like Hamburg, Dresden (almost as many people died in the bombing of Dresden as died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined), then the Muslim world might capitulate like Japan and Germany did.

                Ignoring the ethical problems, there are other reasons why that might not work. For one, Japanese and German aggression originated with their respective governments. Take out the Nazis, and that’s over. Take out the Japanese government, and the threat is gone.

                In the case of terrorist organizations, like ISIS, we’re not talking about governments per se. If you take out the government of Libya, as we’ve seen, the social and cultural forces that created terrorists all over the Muslim world remain. It’s not the governments that are willfully originating the terrorism (for the most part). No doubt, Hezbollah gets its funding and directions from Iran and Syria, and if the governments of Iran and Syria fell, their funding would dry up. Would they go the way of the dodo bird? I don’t think so. I think they’d become more like the Daesh.

                Meanwhile, terrorist organizations in the Sunni world flourish without state support. How will removing governments (like we did in Germany and Japan) eliminate ISIS as a threat?

                1. Another difference is that with Germany and Japan, we only had to concentrate our firepower on a relatively limited area in order to force their complete capitulation. Firebomb Tokyo, drop nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki–and Japan was done. Getting to where we could hit the Germans and Japanese homelands was difficult, but once we could, it was game over.

                  In order to force that kind of capitulation in the Muslim world, you’re going to have to do that to every country in North Africa, around the horn, and a lot of countries in Central Africa, too. You’re going to have to force the capitulation of every country in the Middle East, going into Central Asia, the Balkans, you may have to invade the Philippines, Indonesia, Pakistan, parts of the former Soviet Union.

                  There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, and they are spread out all over a big part of it. That’s not like it was with Japan or Germany.

          2. “With the current administration the pentagon now has to be doing due diligence for both the military and political outcomes from any engagement we get into.”

            Uh, does this ‘due diligence’ include, like, maybe, ignoring an order from the CinC? ‘Cause if it does, we may have *worse* problems than a lying POS in the WH.

            1. No, I don’t think they would exactly ignore an order from the CinC. They might implement it a little differently, or react to expected outcomes in ways the CinC didn’t foresee, want, or have time to counter. I’m pretty sure the pentagon has learned to play their role as if the CinC is five steps behind and looking at the wrong map.

          3. “No plan survives contact with the enemy”

            — Long-dead German guy

            1. Sounds like he both had a plan and was correct in his estimation of plans

    4. Ken has more sense in his right arm that Ed has ever had.

      1. “The best we can hope for in coming decades is to worry about our own security interests–protect our own territory, our own people, and our rights. Our military is not the solution to cultural and social change in the Muslim world. How could it be?”

        You’re right; he points out that you don’t have a brain in you head. Get lost.

        1. Again you demonstrate that you can’t read. And I’m not going anywhere. Fuck yourself.

          1. Cytotoxic|1.27.16 @ 11:43PM|#
            “Again you demonstrate that you can’t read.”

            They don’t teach reading in Canuskistan? Or are you just a fucking ignorant piece of shit too stupid to learn?
            Fuck off, slimy war monger.

          2. Cyto has a war boner….who fucking knew…fuck off or sign up, douchebag. Foreign nationals can can enlist and get the prize…dood that’s you….you can be a citizen. Sign up jackass and then we might take you seriously. Other than that STFU canucktard.

  16. Years of days here accomplish few justices. Decades of hand raised jerking cringes might write the occasional wince on the mona lisa alley that lurks behind the pretend rockets jetting pleasures to the deep universe.

    1. Isn’t that nice!

  17. America is the earth concrete of angel festivals. American interests are so fucking insecure that shitty politicians have to party with politicians of the world in a bureaucratic smash fest and as such American dreams of freedom and liberty travel on the rest of the world clouds and merge with nasty shitty puddles so fucking dark and lurking with goddamn brutal bloody dungeon masters…

    yea, America should avoid the rest of the goddamn world because it sucks hell balls.

  18. America is the earth concrete of angel festivals. American interests are so fucking insecure that shitty politicians have to party with politicians of the world in a bureaucratic smash fest and as such American dreams of freedom and liberty travel on the rest of the world clouds and merge with nasty shitty puddles so fucking dark and lurking with goddamn brutal bloody dungeon masters…

    yea, America should avoid the rest of the goddamn world because it sucks hell balls.

  19. Solitary paradises are suck ass because bombs can’t reach the beaches of paradise
    the winds of hemisphere histories trickle down contemplative streams, boy

  20. Damaged centuries have what right to demand notice? The ancient killing fields sweep up like earth fogs and the screams of the lost vanquish like flightless angels.

  21. no demand of a struggling piece of bloodlet land has a right to forgiveness.

  22. It’s unclear what the U.S. was doing in Libya then

    I thought it was clear we were running an armaments buy-back program to stabilize Libya while outfitting the non-Kurdish freedom fighters seeking to overthrow Assad. Kind of a “Caliphate for clunkers”.

    1. At this point the story of that past situation is such a salad of different viewpoints, cover-ups, fcuk-ups, and finger pointing I wouldn’t believe anybody unless I could verify that the person telling the tale had actually been there and had provable reason to tell the truth.

    2. A commenter earlier stated that the problem with this theory is that it makes no sense logistically or otherwise.

      1. Cytotoxic|1.27.16 @ 11:29PM|#
        “A commenter earlier stated that the problem with this theory is that it makes no sense logistically or otherwise.”

        Actually, that commenter was commenting on your stupidity.

        1. Well you’ve convinced us all. Thanks again for another insightful comment.

          1. Cytotoxic|1.27.16 @ 11:43PM|#
            “Well you’ve convinced us all. Thanks again for another insightful comment.”

            “Us”? Is that a turd in your pocket?
            I didn’t have to convince anyone of your stupidity; you do so with no help at all.

      2. What ‘theory’?

        “years before Congress approved the $500m program to arm the Syrian rebels, the CIA had been running its own separate Syrian rebel-arming program since at least 2012. It was reported prominently by the New York Times at the time and approved by the president.

        In fact, just before Congress voted, Senator Tom Udall told Secretary of State John Kerry, who was testifying in front of the foreign relations committee, “Everybody’s well aware there’s been a covert operation, operating in the region to train forces, moderate forces, to go into Syria and to be out there, that we’ve been doing this the last two years.” In true Orwellian fashion, Kerry responded at the time: “I hate to do this. But I can’t confirm or deny whatever that’s been written about and I can’t really go into any kind of possible program.”

        Also conveniently ignored by Congress and those advocating for arming the rebels was a classified study the CIA did at the time showing that arming rebel factions against sitting governments almost always ends in disaster or tragedy.”

        Re: Logistics didn’t appear to be a problem

        1. the source of that quote above there was the Guardian

          It was notable that most of the reporting on the arms-smuggling going on in 2011-2013 was covered in much detail by UK press, while the few NYT/WSJ stories hardly ever went to the same lengths to document things.

    3. “”Caliphate for clunkers””

      That my friend is well done.

  23. where the clouds of living were bashed and ruined by the violent into ceaseless trauma…

    the earth humans should never forgive genocides.

    The earth friends should gather and kill genocidal kings.

    The earth has far too many human assassins. we must save the innocent and young and lost falling under the bludgeons of hell happening every fucking year on this fucking round ball of bullshit

  24. Someone is trying to control Isis’ labia?

  25. Get fucked up on heroine the planet can float in your goddamn hand… saving the innocents from the serial killer hordes isn’t that fucking hard.

  26. cut the planet into shade
    with clip brakes wade
    undertow the foam of snake
    skulls stretching the travel
    rolling across the ocean navel

    the receiving troughs of
    roiling calls and haunts
    press upon agile’s wants
    and agile roils among the songs
    of this verbs and fonts wands
    lusting deep into the oceansides
    where the cascades
    break the lodes of
    watchful eyes,
    and brown hats

  27. Speaking of Hillary, I saw something on Whisper (of all places) that I thought was insightful: the suggestion that Hillary intentionally put classified information on her insecure server so that the Chinese (or whoever) could steal it, in exchange for donations to the Clinton Foundation.

    What do you think? It’s an angle that I’ve never seen mentioned. Seems plausible.

    1. Sounds convoluted. Why invent a cunning plan, when a stupid-simple one will work?

      1. Because she can deliver the goods by just making them “available” online, in a deniable way.

        1. I don’t think so. Why bother doing that when you can openly solicit large donations to Clinton Inc. while serving as SoS? She thought she was being clever by having the server in some start ups bathroom, and figured the Teflon would keep on keeping them protected. Straight up hubris, that’s what it was, as she has a stockpile of it.

        2. PapayaSF|1.28.16 @ 12:08AM|#
          “Because she can deliver the goods by just making them “available” online, in a deniable way.”
          Stupidity over cupidity any day!

    2. I don’t think that Hillary is that smart and she stopped even trying to hide her own corruption a long time ago. She still believes that the Clinton’s are untouchable, a political dynasty, too big to jail, and that it’s still her turn.

      1. “So, Secretary Clinton, our government has noticed that you are running your own email server. If some classified emails on subjects of interest to us happened to be there, a very large donation would be made to your family foundation, in appreciation for all the good work that you do.”

        1. Not impossible nor completely improbable, but I would think that the corruption was much more subtle. She has had some time to polish that part of the act.

    3. I speculated earlier that the info probably went to Putin via her server. This is interesting. Deliberate, eh? I can see that.

    4. Hard to believe she’s that corrupt, but she has a history…who knows.

  28. Ah an Ed article. I’m sure it’s full of non-sequitors, misdirection, and lies. When was the last time this guy wrote anything that wasn’t cliff-dropping material?

    1. You must be *this* tall to warmonger.

  29. no way
    NOT a fucking way spotify is feasible or bright.
    No fucking way. Spotify is built on the dollars of dummies.

  30. The earth time muse pops boobs of steel called blue 6 inch dicks, bro.

  31. Agile is listless behind the ghost of a living poltergeist the FUCKING AMAZING DEAD voice sinatra. fuck. me.

  32. Agile is listless behind the ghost of a living poltergeist the FUCKING AMAZING DEAD voice sinatra. fuck. me.

  33. Agile is listless behind the ghost of a living poltergeist the FUCKING AMAZING DEAD voice sinatra. fuck. me.

  34. well fuck what the fuck is that up there? simply opined a thought piano and that pyramid crap piled on my spine and cock

  35. old Frank be breaking agile’s neck tonight. Agile get attitude adjusted from dead geniuses. so behind the clouds and moons I, agile, and living on the old amazing lasers of fucking old skool motherfuckers

  36. see, Agile walks the sunshine of the sands and gets attached to the thunders of pennies streaming from the comets of bursting trumpets and twizzling horns and shit, bros.

  37. see, Agile walks the sunshine of the sands and gets attached to the thunders of pennies streaming from the comets of bursting trumpets and twizzling horns and shit, bros.

  38. i did push that button once but christ a button ain’t a real button right these days man?

  39. i did push that button once but christ a button ain’t a real button right these days man?

    1. Goddamn touch screens.

  40. agile will be banned for sure
    just wrote some crap and pushed buttons and shit under the old skool screams

  41. The good news is that ISIS lost some ground in Libya a while ago. Apparently some ISIS are considering making Sirte into a bolt-hole if their project in the Levant fails. Which is a good sign maybe it means they are doing badly there.

    1. Cytotoxic|1.27.16 @ 11:45PM|#
      “The good news is that ISIS lost some ground in Libya a while ago. Apparently some ISIS are considering making Sirte into a bolt-hole if their project in the Levant fails. Which is a good sign maybe it means they are doing badly there.”

      The good news is that war-boner ignoramuses like you have no effect on what happens here.
      Get lost; you’re disturbing adults.

      1. Shut up! Cytotoxic is the smartest 14 year old Canadian here!

        1. His mom told him so!

  42. The good news is that ISIS lost some ground in Libya a while ago. Apparently some ISIS are considering making Sirte into a bolt-hole if their project in the Levant fails. Which is a good sign maybe it means they are doing badly there.

    1. I’m sure that it’ll just take 1-2 Friedman units before those dead-enders give up. Just like how now Iraq is practically Switzerland.

      Heck, it’ll practically be paradise by the time you get to high school.

  43. behind the dimension of wee small hours the agile shall dive

    1. Silence, spaghetti monster denier!

  44. Well gee whiz that sounds like a brilliant plan. But why can’t we just arm the ‘good’ terrorists to fight the ‘bad’ terrorists. That will work won’t it?

  45. the Pentagon says it’s considering “military options” to prevent the would-be caliphate’s growth in a third oil-rich nation in the Middle East/North Africa

    The Pentagon obviously knows something that we don’t know about, yet. Which country are we planning to destabilize next so that we have to save them?

    1. There’s a Trump joke in there somewhere.

      1. “I will build the best sand castle in the galaxy!”

        1. Well, one has to admit that this would be the most useful thing a politician has done in a very long time. Guy has my vote.

        2. Megyns sand castle is terrible. Has no walls. None if the kids even like her.

    2. If I had been led to believe that Swedish politicians actually had discusions like that I would be learning Swedish and preparing to emigrate. Makes a Hell of a lot more sense than our politicians.

  46. sugar was invented to be poured in the ass of fucking sunglass gods
    and lightning sparkking the blonde edifice mountains of hawt grizzlies gonna be all fuckin svelta and shiat, niggas

  47. Exchange above:

    Sevo|1.27.16 @ 11:28PM|#
    “With the current administration the pentagon now has to be doing due diligence for both the military and political outcomes from any engagement we get into.”
    Uh, does this ‘due diligence’ include, like, maybe, ignoring an order from the CinC? ‘Cause if it does, we may have *worse* problems than a lying POS in the WH.

    Tejicano|1.28.16 @ 12:04AM|#
    “No, I don’t think they would exactly ignore an order from the CinC. They might implement it a little differently, or react to expected outcomes in ways the CinC didn’t foresee, want, or have time to counter. I’m pretty sure the pentagon has learned to play their role as if the CinC is five steps behind and looking at the wrong map.”

    As much as I despise the current holder of the CinC rank, I find this a bit, uh, ‘worrying’. Anyone else?

    1. You find this worrying because a) obama is so incompetent or b) because the pentagon would makeindependent plans to compensate for obama’s incompetence?

      1. b)
        Despise Obo as I do, congress could finally grow a pair and hold him accountable.
        The Pentagon has no check at all: Caesar becomes a possibility.

        1. 8 years after he took office – just in time!

        2. It continues to amaze me how much power congress continues to cede to the executive. Seems like a light bulb should turn on when they think, “Gee, what if my worst nightmare became president?”

          SOCOM seems to have become its own little military-within-the-military, and presidents have been wielding it like a private army. What could possibly go wrong there?

          1. “It continues to amaze me how much power congress continues to cede to the executive.”

            They don’t want blamed for anything that goes wrong.

          2. SOCOM came into the world that way. Its predecessor(s) were on that path 25 to 30 years ago. They have long been a tool to take actions which neither the big military nor the non-military intelligence agencies were capable of.

            1. I get the whole unconventional/covert warfare thing. The concentration under one command is the part that scares me. And they aren’t really unconventional or “special” when they are deployed openly and all the time.

              Well, as long as Cytotoxic gets to have his Navy SEALS poster he can masturbate to.

              If I were less lazy, I would put in the obligatory link to the Onion “Very Special Forces” story. Classic.

              1. If you ever watched that TV series “The Unit” – understand that most of that stuff about sending SOCOM troops in small groups not in uniform to do any type of unconventional action is part of what they do.

  48. i shall eat a salad of heroines and cocaine gods wearing genetic deformitings and shit with a serious goddamn need to weed some fucking spinache garden ciz rock n roll makes the ages exist for tons of shitty old people incliding me. and rock would be coffin without shitty almost dead humans. Becuase modern music sucks bleeding asshole for eternities.
    Ancient caves filled with writhing almost alive humans jerking to 80’s def leopards gotta be the real than why this place even stays for reals

  49. i shall eat a salad of heroines and cocaine gods wearing genetic deformitings and shit with a serious goddamn need to weed some fucking spinache garden ciz rock n roll makes the ages exist for tons of shitty old people incliding me. and rock would be coffin without shitty almost dead humans. Becuase modern music sucks bleeding asshole for eternities.
    Ancient caves filled with writhing almost alive humans jerking to 80’s def leopards gotta be the real than why this place even stays for reals

    1. I saw Def Leppard with Billy Squire back in the 80s. Cincinnati or Dayton? Lots of Coke.

  50. my wife and I recently had a date with a tall ebony and handsome plastic surgeon somewhere above the dripping hills of ohio. we met at a pricey fucking room on the 18th floor and the late hour moon smashed into the wide curtains like an angry universe cowboy and the girls went into the bathroom while the men me and the surgeon slowly stripped our clothing off. He was cut and shit. Agile is cut and shit also but and so on.

    The surgeon’s ebony strolled from the opening and her long legs and lightning struck my agile planet while my own
    sweet blonde strolled out behind and the surgeon boys eyes rolled back and this late drunken night in Nasheville
    a couple of couples were going to be infected with some goddamn serious massive amounts of adult delight. The girls and us boys got all smooshy in the same bed and sordid amounts of cocks and ass crack were sucked delight so fully and boobs were sandwiched and pretty faces were fucked with cocks and slippery time machines.

    An awesome night was to be had under that Dublln OH Red Rood last summer after the great bar band

    1. I certainly hope that you’ve been using some protection, young man.

    2. I know that Red Roof. Dublin and Hilliard is my neck of the woods.

    3. Wow, to think I was personally within a few miles of AC.

  51. Speaking of spinach and heroines, I am making the prediction right now that Trump has just reached his nadir and will fail to make the finals. Skipping the debate will prove to be his downfall.

    1. I will bet you’re wrong. And you mean “zenith” or some other word: nadir means lowest point.

      1. Too many pale ales, I did mean zenith. I will bet you. Not a great amount. Bottle of booze or something equivalent?

        1. Hard to mail, unless you’re near San Francisco. There don’t have to be stakes. Maybe a $20 book on Amazon.

          1. I’m in the sunset. I could go for a book or booze. My call is the D Man does not become Pres. You want action on that?

            1. If we are talking about the nomination I would want some bit of odds.

              1. Well now, you’re shifting here. You originally said “fail to make the finals,” which I took as meaning “won’t get the nomination.” Now you want odds on that. In any case, we should have an SF meetup with C. Anacreon and Sevo and whoever else. (I haven’t seen Len Bias around here recently.) Just add @gmail.com to my username.

    2. We all can hope, Suell, and no sarc intended.

    3. I’m gonna be here when you’re wrong, Sue Ellen. And South Fork will always be mine!

    4. Everyone keeps saying that this time he finally did it, this tine he’s fininshed. And everytime they say that he gets a spike in the polls. He could shoot a kiitten and his poll numbers would go up. So I wouldn’t bet against him.

  52. Totally OT, SF politics.
    First, SF has ‘rent control’ ordinances which apply to buildings extant prior to 1977; Di Fi is married to a developer who (never profited by her office, ha, ha.) told her that the way to kill new rental construction is to make it subject to rent control.
    We have ‘district representation’ on the Board of Supes, which means a serious effort at pandering in the last weeks before an election can get a slimy prog elected by 15 votes or so, and since there are not all that many districts, that slimy prog *can* have an effect.
    So we get Arron Peskin back on the board, having termed-out once before, and during his swearing-in, he announces his aim to make rent control universal in SF. I mention to wife that he has just poisoned the well; she says ‘state law doesn’t allow that’. She is correct, but:
    Dinner last week with contractor (actually, sub); a project has been put on hold; the owner now wants to get condos permitted rather than build rentals, citing Peskin’s comments. All Peskin needs is one more log-rolling Supe and developers are upside down.
    Turd once claimed the market couldn’t be responding to O-care; it hadn’t been enforced yet. It would be a just world where turd’s and Peskin’s retirement funds were invested in SF REIFs.

    1. I am somewhat rent-trapped at the moment: not bad but not great house-share, but anything non-sharing and equivalent would start at 3x what I’m paying.

      1. It just got worse.

        1. There was also legislation pending that I do not know if passed that would allow tenants to break the terms of their lease in regards to number of people alllowed per unit. The only limit would be the upper limits of health and safety codes, nothing that was written into lease.

  53. What ever happened to that one guy that used to be here, name Bogart or Bocephus or Bowplug, or something like that?

    1. Er, you mean Palin’s Buttplug? Still around, methinks, but not much posting action the last few days.

    2. He took the wrong short bus from school, and he still hasn’t made it home.

      Well, there’s always Jackhand Ace, AmSoc, Tulpa (or do I repeat myself?), Tony, and the Short Canadian Warmonger to stink up the place.

      1. May be someone else now. Our trolls tend to like to change up their handles.

        1. PBP seems shockingly consistent, though. Almost like he’s Dave Weigel.

          1. He definitely cannot see anything in terms other than team Red or Blue. It’s like somebody has buttplug’s nuts in a vise adding another spin any time he might even try to see things some other way.

  54. Libya is totally asking for it? Did you see how she’s dressed?

    1. She was showing her ankles!

  55. Are we considering military options in Chicago too?

    http://hotair.com/archives/201…..re-killed/

  56. Here’s an idea. Let’s get a strongman to run the place. I’m thinking of perhaps a former Colonel…

    Sure he’ll commit all kinds of a atrocities and say bad stuff about the West. But as long as we keep him in power, he’ll quash the religious nuts and keep the oil flowing. Really the best for everyone involved. Only a total idiot would ever try to depose him and give the various fruitcakes there a say in their government.

  57. The short description of the reality between the US (the West in general) and the Middle East is the US is consolidating its corpora-fascistic economy/culture, which will last about another 100-150 years (necessarily resorting to more cruel and abusive behaviors along the way), fighting Islam only so much as to maintain the flow of resources to maintain their power, and will eventually succumb to a Muslim world.

    Anyone who thinks that there’s a difference between the Dems or Repubs on the Middle East is a fool, and anyone who thinks either party is setting any policy to settle the inherent differences between East and West, either through peaceful OR militaristic means, is a fool twice over. The USG has used The Boxcutter Incident to quintuple its monitoring and control of its own people more than it has done anything material settling East versus West antagonisms. It’s all about control of the serfs and flow of wealth to particular interests.

  58. OK for the millionth time it doesn’t matter if there are ‘moderate forces’ in Libya or if they build a sand monument consecrating their eternal fealty to Admiral Dempsey. The only thing that matters is whether they believe in freedom and democracy and human rights. And if they teach these values to their children. Why? Because if you have to ask the question you are not a libertarian.

    If they don’t support such values then that means they want to be invaded by ISIS (yes, really) and that means there’s not a damn thing we can do to stop it and our continued bombing will only make things worse. Rand Paul is the only person who says that. I only wish he could do so with conviction instead of being defensive and apologetic.

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