Oregon Standoff

Ammon Bundy Arrested; Shots Fired; One Dead (UPDATED)

Details vague; passive voice deployed.


Details are still sketchy, but given the that the news cycle is once again all about Donald Trump, it's worth putting out now so it doesn't get lost. From CNN:

Federal authorities arrested Ammon Bundy, the leader of a group of protesters occupying a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, during a traffic stop Tuesday, a law enforcement official told CNN.

Up to eight of Bundy's followers were detained, the source said.

Shots were fired after authorities made the stop, according to the source. It's not clear who fired first.

A nearby hospital is on lockdown and a helicopter was deployed out to the scene, but it's still not clear whether anybody was actually shot, hence the passive voice.

Previous Reason coverage about the situation in Oregon here

UPDATE: One person is dead. Here's a release put out by the FBI as passed along by a reporter (Click to read):

UPDATE: Here's some thorough reporting from the scene from The Oregonian. (Hat tip to Crusty Juggler)

UPDATE: Again from The Oregonian, here is one account of the shooting allegedly passed along by Ammon Bundy himself:

The identity of the person killed in the shootout was not released by authorities, but the daughter of Robert "LaVoy" Finicum, 55, of Arizona, said her father was to be part of the entourage going to John Day.

Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said that Ammon Bundy called his wife Lisa Bundy from the back of a police car on Tuesday night.

Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bunday family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police and had put his hands up. Then, Fiore said, Bundy told his wife that he watched police shoot Finicum three times. She said that Ammon Bundy also said Finicum was on the ground when he was shot.

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  1. Wow. Will this spark similar protests by like-minded individuals?

    1. Protests may be sparked.

    2. You mean your hat tip? : )

      1. (Hat tip to Crusty Juggler)

        Whooo, that’s mah boy!

      2. Just the tip?

        Congrats on the h/t, Crusty. [weeps bitterly]

    3. #oldwhiteguyslivesmatter

      nah…it’ll never catch on

    4. WaPo commenters are pretty gleeful that the terrorists have finally been taken out.

    5. Damn you and your BundyKnowledge.
      Damn you to Hell.

      /places hand in waistband after long day at the shoestore

  2. it’s still not clear whether anybody was actually shot, hence the passive voice.

    Hence nothing. Some person or persons fired those shots “first”.

    Crappy reporting all around.

    1. Because we don’t know yet? Journalists aren’t psychics, or else they wouldn’t be so poor.

      1. I’ve yet to encounter a poor journalist.

          1. Yes. Should have tagged it as such.

    1. Update to that: Bundys in custody, one militant dead after gunfight near Burns

      If you don’t trust Les Zaitz, who will you trust?

      1. The Bundy’s need to upgrade their bodyguards.

        They were driving around going to events? What the hell was going out there?

        1. Update: Scott linked to an FBI report, while Crusty will link to Les Zaitz’s twitter.

          Les reports from his ranch, digging up stories, just sayin’.

          1. I’ve added the link (and a hat tip). Thanks!

            1. Scott, you are welcome. I appreciate the hat tip, but it is not necessary. Unlike the rest of the grousing scoundrels on this blog, I am just happy to help.

              1. Grousing Scoundrels = good band name.

              2. You already got a hat tip what else are you groveling for ?

                two hat tips ?

                1. plus good on you for the Les link


          3. Very relevant: my caffeine and bourbon-fueled googling led me to this photo of Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore, who is mentioned in the Les Zaitz article.

            That woman is a culture war.

            1. Not saying I wouldn’t but she needs more hips.

                1. really playa you nailed it

                  she’s got plenty of hips she just knows how to pose in a way to hide them

                  but that hair sits like a mop on top of her head

                  Anyway, I’ve done worse but I was young and drunk and it was late…or very early

            2. I’m drunk right now and I wouldn’t.

              No me gusta.

                1. This is not indicative of a wouldn’t.

      2. I hope that Al is OK.

    2. Heard on AM radio this afternoon that one of the visitor-center-occupiers was shot during a DUI arrest last night — related? Unfortunately, I didn’t pay much attention, but I remember them saying it was caught on a police body cam.

  3. Prediction: Much cheerleading for the Feds and calls for the dead guy’s head to be placed on a spike.

    1. Nice use of the passive voice!

    2. People’s attitude is extremely deferential to governmental authorities in such cases. The ranchers will likely be demonized beyond parody.

      1. In this case it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the Bundy yahoos shot first. Scott’s right, more details are needed.

        I was initially pleasantly surprised that the Feds were waiting them out instead of escalating the situation.

        1. My distrust of the federal government is such that I universally presume its outright guilt in any occurrences of conflict, be it political, financial, or physical. The Bundys might have been responsible for initiating combat when confronted, but I’ll assume otherwise until the details are revealed.

          1. A gathering of scared, heavily armed men, on a single, lonely, rural road?

            1. The FBI and OSP? I agree. That’s likely.

      2. ” The ranchers will likely be demonized beyond parody.”

        Will? Have you not googled “Vanilla ISIS” yet?

        1. Oh, come now. Comparing Grand Moff to Will Wheaton is hardly called for.

    3. “Much cheerleading for the Feds and calls for the dead guy’s head to be placed on a spike.”


      and much repeating of the phrase ‘domestic terrorism’ as a code-word term for ‘people with guns’ and anyone who has less than enthusiasm for the expansion of federal authority, etc.

      1. Confrontational state actors fuck with citizens, kill one of them = RIGHT-WING TERURISM.

        1. Yup. It’s a pretty strange sort of “terrorist” that never hurt, or even tried to hurt, a single person.

      2. …as Sex Trafficking.

  4. Updated! Passive use of verbs continues apace.

    1. All defendants should be presumed innocent until proven guilty

      I don’t know why, but that disclaimer made me laugh.

      1. Gallows humor. Good thing you have so much of it, because…

  5. Then they came for the Mormon ranchers…

  6. A sweet sigh of relief shudders softly through the gloomy coagulation of socialist concern for bunnies and government dirt.

    1. I worry about you Agile. You are getting much too coherent lately.

  7. A fucked up conclusion to a bad situation. The gripe about ridiculous sentencing is valid, at least to me. And to an actual Judge in the system, I might add. Too bad somebody had to die as a result. Now we have two men serving sentences that don’t match the “misdeed” and a body bag. Not a good outcome for anybody except the Socialist cheerleaders badmouthing the protesters and cheering for more government control of these supposed “outlaws”. Land of the Free…we wish to remember when it were so.

    1. That ranch isn’t yours. You didn’t build that.

      Were it not for public lands, stolen from state citizens and re-leased back to them, there would be little ranching in the west. So these ranchers need to recognize who butters their bread and kowtow to the feds and thank them for their benevolence. And more passive voice and such.

  8. Unfortunately unsurprising. It was going to end with the occupants getting arrested at some point. A confrontation over grazing land is one thing but no way were the Feds ever going to allow takeover of a federal facility, no matter how minor, without punishment.

    1. Let me add a qualifier to your statement please.

      No way were the feds ever going to allow a takeover of a federal facility BY WHITE NON PROGRESSIVES , no matter how minor to go without punishment

      And now they have created a hero for the cause

      1. Easy now, BlackLivesMatter.

  9. I think theres probably going to be a misconception that “these guys going to jail” and shutting them the hell up finally will mean “winning” the culture-war conflict part of the whole thing.

    sadly i don’t think it works that way. the best way to undermine these guys would have actually been to listen to them, and run stories about the Hammond brothers and the issues of Federal land-control in the West until *the protesters no longer mattered*

    if people had simply stopped “making them the story” and instead looked at ‘what they were ostensibly complaining about’, it would have neutralized them rather than empower them.

    instead, choosing to let them become a symbol for disaffected westerners frustrated with guvmint? you’re just going to martyr them, and prove to all the (currently) passive onlookers that ‘the feds really are out to get them” and that there is no one out there who is reasonable and wants to listen.

    and eventually instead of protests, some jackass really will become a ‘domestic terrorist’. Which will be the justification for either party to really bring the liberty-crushing boot down.

    1. Yep. As for the Bundy brothers and the others arrested, there’s little doubt in my mind that a prosecutor will win a conviction. Even if it’s just probation, felony means stripped of possessing a firearm and subject to the usual overreach of post custody probation. Any misstep and back to prison, like getting mixed up in their dad’s ranching battle.

    2. I think theres probably going to be a misconception that “these guys going to jail” and shutting them the hell up finally will mean “winning” the culture-war conflict part of the whole thing.

      The culture way is here to say no matter what happened, and this will only inflame it even more to a certain segment. The Bundy’s were, according to Les Zaitz (who reports from his ranch, digging up stories), were on their way to a meeting set up by local residents, and there were several hundred people in attendance. Several hundred! On a fucking Tuesday! I doubt they were all saying “get out, rednecks.”

      There was a culture war over a movie about a Navy SEAL, and half the movie was about his wife! A lady!

      1. “There was a culture war over a movie about a Navy SEAL, and half the movie was about his wife! A lady!”

        I was so disappointed when i watched American Sniper. I thought it was slow, sappy, the action scenes were…low budget and sort of un-realistic (so it seemed to me). I couldn’t believe people had such a political shitfit about it.

        *cooper was great, to be fair.

        1. Well duh! If the movie upholds my political beliefs then it is good. Otherwise it’s bad. What’s so hard about that?

          1. I was hoping it was really what the progs were claiming it was.

            A redneck going, “TAKE THAT YOU HEATHEN SAVAGES!!” (kpow! blows head off of muslim child) “Y’ALL TOWELHEADS DID 9-11 AND NOW ME’N JESUS IS BACK TO WHOOP YER SANDNIGGER ASS!!” (kpow! kpow! shoots camels, women)

            (marine captain pulls him aside)
            “Dear lord man, take it easy! we’re not even in Iraq yet! This is Kuwait!”
            “They’s all in cahoots, Cap’n! That one there’s got the look of terriist hisself”
            “No! that’s our interpreter!!”

            1. Stop! My wife is going to come downstairs soon and ask me why I’m sitting in the dark, giggling.

              1. ….
                (Dick Cheney answers the phone)
                “Sir… we’ve had reports of… some uh, accidental deaths… there’s this SEAL? and he’s, well, Texan, for one… and… let’s say ‘overzealous’….”
                “Give him a medal!”
                “For god’s sake, man! This is War! Things happen in war!! I’m sure he meant well whatever he did! We can’t go crying over spilled milk or a few inconvenienced civilians! give the man a medal – no, wait – Two medals! War needs Heroes. Now capture me some oil-fields dammit! I’m a busy man!”

            2. Lol!

              While the movie does make Kyle into a hero of sorts, it also shows a career soldier doing his job. I think this is impossible for progressives to understand.

              They like them some police action against disrespectful cowboys and protesting tea partiers, but fail to understand that in the military one is trained to do a job and that is what one does. Chris Kyle was trained as a sniper and did what snipers do. And he did it very well. But progressives just can’t comprehend war. They seem to think that war is all about defensive killing–killing the enemy just before he/she kills you. But that is a recipe for failure. You’ve got to kill the enemy before he gets a chance to kill you or your buddies. Maybe this is why they tend to lose wars.

              Progressives will never understand Chris Kyle, or any other soldier. They only understand the police crushing enemies of progressivism because that is what the state does.

              1. i’m just upset that no one really made the movie that i read about in Salon.

        2. Cooper was good. I read somewhere that in either the one phone call or meeting Cooper and Kyle had, Kyle told him they needed to “knock the Hollywood” off of him if he was going to portray a SEAL, and Cooper did work hard to get beefy.

          The movie was okay, but like you I was disappointed there was no jamming of the American flag down a terrorist’s post-goat-fucking throat.

        3. I know no one will ever read this, but…

          I was on the southwest border of Sadr City 06-08, and I thought the combat in AS was the most realistic portrayal of what I experienced that I have seen so far. By far.

          1. I read it. I came here mostly to see who was worshipping my hat tippiness, but your take on the combat scenes is certainly interesting.

    3. I think theres probably going to be a misconception that “these guys going to jail” and shutting them the hell up finally will mean “winning” the culture-war conflict part of the whole thing

      I assume the progs will behave in an absolutely disgusting manner, reminiscent of how Rs behave when (they feel) it isn’t a conservative protesting. Everyone feel free to completely miss the irony, thereby failing to learn a damned thing beyond TEAM.

      Not to say anything about you, Gilmore, I have no idea if you have any objection to protest purely based on principals, not principles. It merely seemed apropos.

      Also on topic: I mentioned in a completely unrelated conversation earlier that I equated the Tea Party, Occupy, and Trump-ites movements. There is a base level of discontent among the populace. Some might be ever so tempted to ascribe it all to TEAM, but I’m not so certain. I called it during Occupy, and after it waned – there will be another mass protest, and soon (relative to current human events – not the second coming of Jesus sort of soon). Is it the Bundy occupiers? Probably not. But the Trump-ites certainly qualify under what I had in mind at the time, though I could never have predicted the method.


      1. I have reason to suspect not everyone is as devoted to TEAM as media and the interwebs would have us believe. Hubris? Idiocy? Entirely possible, I am no expert on anything other than sesame oil, saute station and meats. And Styx, for which you judge me at your own peril, you judgy little bastards. On the other hand… the confluence is too great to ignore. The Tea Party, Occupy, and Trump-ites all have at least one thing in common – massive discontent and failure of trust in The Establishment.

        I might be completely off base here, and I’m fine with that. I have no investment in my own perfection, and new thoughts and idea are not anathema maranatha. OTOH, criticality may be an issue. I have long maintained that TPTB will have to play a game of whack-a-mole with their capricious, arbitrary abuse of power attaining larger and larger role in cognitive dissonance, until something finally breaks. I expected someone to be shot when I was at Occupy. I wanly wondered if these Malheur people knew shooting was a likely option. Any economist will tell you that a correct forecast with incorrect timing is still incorrect. Which is why I’m not buying any of the shit folks might perceive me to be peddling. To the left, I do have to ask myself: why was the outcome so apparently predictable, if not the timing and TEAM?

        1. We allow them to phrase this as “culture war” at our own peril. This isn’t about culture. It’s about who is in charge, what our priorities are: corruption and TEAM, or some sort of attempt at liberty and constitutionality. Which gets applied no matter who you are. Principles, not principals.

          Go ahead and get mad, guys. I’ve faced a line of two hundred riot cops, and I’ve seen a bus unload two hundred people into my restaurant when I was understaffed. Internet comments, frankly, aren’t that scary. I’ve had guns pointed at me for speaking my mind, and worse. What could you possibly do to me? Attribute bad intentions? Whoooo. *twirls finger*

          I don’t pretend to have any answers. I suspect that TEAM politics play into their hands, and that I’ll be no more successful of convincing people here of that than I will of convincing old Occupy compatriots. And that insensibility is exactly what they’re hoping for, in my opinion.

          This was wrong. I’m going to say that, in this time and in this place, so that everyone can see it. No one should have died over this. This is not liberty. This is not freedom. This is not law, nor is it order. And I am not okay with a man’s death over a political protest.

          I merely wish I could do something besides shake my fist at clouds, and hope principles would trump principals.

        2. And Styx, for which you judge me at your own peril, you judgy little bastards.

          Styx was great up to and including Pieces of Eight.

          Anything post 1978 rightfully deserves judging/mockery.

  10. Reading the comments on the articles it is amazing how much passion people can have for a topic without actually having any knowledge of the issues at hand. I suppose that goes for Les Zaitz, the author of the article as well. He seems to be swallowing the government line without any reservation.

    A simple read through the protester’s version of events leading up to this should give anyone pause. There’s plenty of stuff to be concerned about with the BLM’s behavior, even if you support their actions and think the ranchers are all a bunch of terrorists.

    I’d be surprised if there isn’t a bunch of contention over the events that led to the killing of one of the protesters. As we’ve seen with prior FBI operations of this type, they tend to take on a mythology beyond the official version of events. Hopefully they had dash and body cameras so that we can eliminate at least some of the wild conspiracy-theory versions of events.

    1. I suppose that goes for Les Zaitz,


      1. Yeah, I worried that I might be going a bit too far with that one. Even though he is the only one pulling in voices other than the feds and their cheerleaders, there’s also stuff like this:

        In October, they were ordered back to federal prison to finish five-year terms for deliberating starting fires that burned federal land in 2001 and 2006.

        Which at first blush sounded like a complete swallowing of the prosecutor’s story, but I suppose could also be an effort to neutrally describe the events – the fires were deliberately started and they did burn onto federal land. But it certainly leaves out a lot of the nuance of the case. And I think any reporting on the standoff that doesn’t include the decades long attempt by the BLM to take over their land does a disservice to the story. (and that would include just about 100% of the coverage)

        1. I think you were expecting too much from my boy Les. Being first does not mean you have to be thorough.

        2. ^THIS X 1000. And I did check out this Les guy’s link from above. For a rancher who allegedly resides in the region he strikes me as being remarkable tone deaf to all the underlying issues. And anyone who uses the word terrorist to describe protesters in this context is displaying the kind of weapons grade stupid that should be sterilized on general principles. For the greater good of course. This unfortunately seems to describe approximately 92% of the proudly ignorant and oh so cluelessly outraged useful idiots that clutter the comment threads on every MSM story. And the complete lack of nuance, context or any kind of attempt at an in depth investigation of the horrific injustices that triggered this, by the majority of the media reports I have seen will only serve make things worse. JFK had a quote along these lines that was remarkably insightful, something like “Those who make peaceful democratic change impossible make violent change inevitable.”

          1. And at the heart of this failure is the complete and utter lack of any kind of the local, organic, democratic checks and balances that prevent petty tyrannies and unpopular laws from coming into existence in the first place. This is putting aside for a moment the arguments against the continued Federal occupation of large swaths of land inside the boundaries of the State after Statehood that they have decided to keep rather than dispose of or relinquish to the State in a timely manner as provided for and required by the legal enabling documents both parties agreed to at the time of Statehood. I do not like the Idea of referring to this as “Federally Owned” land as the vast majority of it does not fit into the narrow categories (Docks,Forts,Munitions Depots etc, IOW necessary for the common defense), that are allowed under the Constitution. If the Federal Government wanted to legally hold and own land inside of the individual states that is not specifically authorized by the Constitution then they would pay property taxes on it, to the State and local governments, like every other property owner already does.

    2. think the ranchers are all a bunch of terrorists.

      to an urban proggie that is exactly what they are and they are definately worse than any jihadist Muslim because….

      1. Because bitter clinger

  11. FBI. Does that mean no dash cam?

    1. The other side should have known to have video going from the start of the encounter.

      1. Have them going 24/7 and in multiple locations.

    2. I don’t think the FBI uses dash cams, the testimony of their top man, Special Agent Provocateur, is unimpeachable and that guy always seems to be hanging around wherever there’s trouble.

  12. The comment section on the oregonlive.com story is pathetic. A lot of mouthbreathing sycophants for state-sponsored violence cheering about a man dying over occupying some lonely piece of frigid ground in protest of a set of grotesquely unjust sentences.

    1. They sound as if they are talking about finally getting Bin Laden or the BTK killer, not someone who is merely protesting government encroachment on ranching in the west. They also don’t seem to be just the weird fringe of internet posters that you get for pretty much any topic. They really do seem to represent a major slice of the progressives.

      1. Yeah. Some days I read stuff like that and I just think “Fuck it. This country is getting the government it deserves, good and hard.” Why the hell did it have to happen in my lifetime, though?

  13. So since it was one of the protesters who died, we can be certain he shot himself to save the gov’t some ammo.

  14. 56 miles of highway closed between Burns and John Day

    I am outraged for anyone who has to use that road. Get that story straight, authorities.

  15. Trump is free Thursday night. Maybe he could go out to Oregon and negotiate a settlement to this situation, if he’s so good at the “art of the deal.”

  16. For some reason, I have this funny feeling that the scum in the so-called “mainstream” media won’t be uncritically reporting some cockamamie “Hands up, don’t shoot” tale fabricated by one lying punk-ass kid as though it’s the gospel truth for months on end in this particular case.

    1. You must be some sort of psychic or somethin’

    2. Those militiamen should have all been wearing go-pros with direct upload to the Internet.

  17. Not the bloodbath lefiies were hoping for, but a lot of them are still orgasming over this

    1. Fucking literal popup Christmas for law-lovin’ Progressives this one.

      1. Yea, I made several snarky comments at different places about the fact the assholes crowing over the dead were just as pathetic and disgusting as the NeoCon asswipes calling for blood in the Middle East. Apparently the “Whack-a-Rightwinger” mentality these jackasses have hasn’t quite gripped the idea of Blowback. God help us if the dead man is made into a martyr.

    2. Not that I have any particular use for the Republicans, but doesn’t it seem like this sort of thing usually only happens when Democrat are in the White House?

  18. yeah thats right..the feds “murdered” this “patriot” in cold blood and then allowed the bearded hero Bundy to make a phone call from the back of the police car to his wife…yeah. One who was arrested was livecasting on Youtube the past few weeks..the Pete Santilli Show…he was arrested a half hour or so ago for conspiracy or whatever while “broadcasting” live..the feed is still live..cant see anything but you can hear people wound up talking in the room about this “outrage” pathetic people

    1. Old, Pete, the bat shit crazy guy that gives all niche organizations their creds.

    2. I didn’t understand a word.

      1. Needs more air quotes.

        1. *SNORT*

    3. oooohh

      the bearded hero Bundy

      not to be confused with the clean cut FBI gubmint heros

      1. With square jaws and sunglasses

  19. I’ve posted this a couple of times over the last week or two, but just to remind everybody . . .

    This is video of the Harney County fire chief resigning after discovering that some of the people whom the locals thought were militia actually turned out to be undercover FBI.


    I can’t imagine that the militia people will be happy about one of their own being shot three times while on the ground, but regardless of whatever happens in the coming hours, we should keep in mind that undercover FBI have been among those militia people for weeks.

    I wouldn’t believe any stories about militia people being violent until we can verify the identity of everyone involved and determine with certainty whether the violence is perpetrated by real militia or undercover FBI.

    1. is it at all possible that the man they shot while he was on the ground is undercover FBI ?

      1. will this unite #blacklivesmatter and white patriots ?


  20. I wonder if this death will encourage more to join the occupiers? Seems like it would be a polarizing moment.

    1. The insurmountable odds that form the governing structure of modern America have to be addressed intelligently.

      Any motherfucker using this tragedy as an excuse to violently resist a state that has no intention of ever being dissed will achieve absolutely zero for credible demands against federal power.

      1. Not disagreement there.

  21. It makes me so fucking sad. How fucking hard is it to do the right thing? Bloody fucking hell. My father taught me this when I was a wee bairn. He taught me and showed me by example. My elder brors showed me by example. How fucking hard is it? Does no one have ne honour ne more? I’m thinking so. it makes me sad. Even the fucking priest knew how to do the right thing, and did it, and showed us, by example, how to act, how to bring no shame on the community, how to act right regardless the consequences.

    1. My father taught me this

      Flaunting your conservative white privilege again.

  22. “Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said that Ammon Bundy called his wife Lisa Bundy from the back of a police car on Tuesday night.”

    How the hell does that happen?

    1. When the locals get custody they have the ability to act like humans and let people inform their wives that they are not dead.

  23. “Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bunday family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police and had put his hands up. Then, Fiore said, Bundy told his wife that he watched police shoot Finicum three times.”

    Where are the Black Lives Matter people?

    Don’t they want to tell the FBI that hands up means don’t shoot?

    1. From my limited interaction with Black Lives Matter supporters, they are screaming for equal brutality, not less brutality. Only when whitey gets the shaft will oppression end. They would’ve tried to extend slavery to whites in order to get to abolition.

      1. The military draft pretty much did extend slavery to whites – as did Karl Marx’s income tax. And now there is Obama’s healthcare breathing tax to nearly complete the job. About the only thing left is the power to use us for breeding purposes.

  24. Seeing how progressives are back in love with the cops for wasting that uppity motherfucking cowboy black lives will definitely matter a bit less. Nothing like a solid killing of an insubordinate questioner of government to reset progressive priorities.

  25. “…real militia?”
    There are no “real militia” here. A Constitutional militia is subject to the authority of the Governor of a State or the Commander in Chief when called up.
    Bundy and his thugs are armed insurrectionists.
    I got no use for them.
    Fuck ’em, fuck ’em and feed ’em beans.
    And if they don’t like that, take away the beans.

    1. I like this guy^. Stone cold, man, stoooone cold.

        1. I read it as haiku.

        2. I’m sure its not the same retard posting under different handles. And i’m sure the same person won’t also post their version of a racist redneck agitating for revolution either. Because that’s totally not like the most obvious thing in the world.

    2. Well the beans got more than taken away this day for one of your thugs. I guess the bitch had it coming seeing he was in a mutinous frame of mind and all.

      I wager ol’ ernieyeball has to be goddamn excited about the righteous ways of the gubment being implemented so soundly. Son, this right calls for a bacon fat tug-a-rub on the wrinkly soup pipe and a steamy blort for federal love.

      1. My thoughts exactly, handsome.

      2. Son, this right calls for a bacon fat tug-a-rub on the wrinkly soup pipe and a steamy blort for federal love.

        This has to be one of the best sentences I have ever read. Damn.

        1. I, too, must admit it: I have sentence envy.

    3. There are no “real militia” here. A Constitutional militia is subject to the authority of the Governor of a State or the Commander in Chief when called up.

      Uh, can you show me where in the constitution you got this revelation?

    4. “There are no “real militia” here. A Constitutional militia is subject to the authority of the Governor of a State or the Commander in Chief when called up.”

      You have no idea what you’re talking about.

      “To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States . . . .

      If circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens”.

      —-Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers #29


      1. We have two things to learn here:

        1) According to the Constitution, a “well-regulated militia” is a group of individuals who regularly practice with their own arms. This terminology still exists in military parlance. There’s a big difference between fighting against “regular army” and “irregulars”. Regular army know how to use their weapons because they are well practiced in their use. Irregulars are easily run over by regular army.

        2) The Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to own firearms so that they can be used in defense of our rights against our own government should it become tyrannical.

        If you believe something else, what you believe is wrong.

        1. The problem here is 21st century morons think “well-regulated” meant the same thing to freedom-fighters in 1792 as it does to nanny-staters in 2016.

          1. Like I said, we still use a version of the term “regular” to describe the difference between “regular army” and “irregulars”. It’s still an important distinction. To regulate something is to make it regular.

            When the people of Benghazi originally rose up against Gaddafi, they were shopkeepers, garbage men, school teachers, and taxi cab drivers and they were wielding shotguns, handguns, shovels, and axes–going up against Gaddafi’s regular army. It isn’t surprising that the framers wanted to prevent that from happening here. Hell, Hamilton was Washington’s right hand man in the Continental Army. The idea that they didn’t intend to protect the rights of would be revolutionaries to guard their liberties against the state is ridiculous. They were revolutionaries themselves! They’d just been through it.

            I think this is one of those places where the progressives’ impulses betray them. They’ve come to imagine that guns are something only rednecks care about and that rednecks are by their very nature ignorant. Therefore, they assume, what rednecks say about the Second Amendment, gun rights, a well regulated militia, etc. must be ignorant. Talking to most of them, it’s like they’ve never even heard these arguments before. They’re so used to arguing with the straw man rednecks in their heads, they’re come to believe the voices in their heads are real.

      2. None of that made it into the United States Constitution.
        This is what did:
        To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

        To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

        The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

        1. Serving the several states, and executing the Laws of the Union, is not the same thing as defending hope and change and fighting for Bloomberg’s desire to remove salt from the tables of all resturants across the Nation…….. not just NYC.

        2. …when called into the actual Service of the United State

          What do you not understand about your own quote?

        3. …when called into the actual Service of the United State

          What do you not understand about your own quote?

        4. “None of that made it into the United States Constitution.”

          “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

          —-Second Amendment.

          We know what a “well regulated militia is”, individuals who are well practiced in the regular use of their arms (per the quote from The Federalist Papers #29 included above), and we know why a militia is necessary to the security of a free state (per the quote above, as well), which is to deter or fight a tyrannical government oppressing us.

          Saying that none of that made it into the Constitution is absurd when it’s clearly there in the Second Amendment. Are you trying to play word games again? Do you imagine that amendments aren’t part of the Constitution?

        5. Here’s another great part of Federalist Papers #29:

          “There is something so far-fetched and so extravagant in the idea of danger to liberty from the militia, that one is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or with raillery; whether to consider it as a mere trial of skill, like the paradoxes of rhetoricians; as a disingenuous artifice to instil prejudices at any price; or as the serious offspring of political fanaticism. Where in the name of common-sense, are our fears to end if we may not trust our sons, our brothers, our neighbors, our fellow-citizens? What shadow of danger can there be from men who are daily mingling with the rest of their countrymen and who participate with them in the same feelings, sentiments, habits and interests?”

          —-Alexander Hamilton (Ibid)

          That actually didn’t make it into the text of the Constitution, but it’s still on target today. Ever notice how progressives demonize the militia and then call people paranoid for being worried about their rights? I wonder if it ever registers with progressives how completely predictable they are. Reading that last quote, Alexander Hamilton saw the progressives coming for our guns from more than 200 years away!

          1. It’s interesting to imagine the arguments they were having in their day. Federalists and Anti-Federalists disagreed about many things, but their quibbles were much closer to the arguments we libertarians have amongst ourselves than the disagreements over which things need more government intrusion.

            Having read the Anti-Federalist papers, I find I agree with them more than Hamilton, but only because they predicted many of the problems we are facing today due to the lack of restrictions in the Constitution.

        6. There was no standing army at the time the Constitution was ratified.

    5. “There are no “real militia” here.”

      Last but not least, this is a semantic dodge.

      I was comparing undercover FBI agents to “real militia”.

      If you don’t think there’s a substantive difference between phony militia–made up of undercover FBI agents pretending to be militia–and the “real militia”–who are not undercover FBI agents–then no one should take you seriously.

    6. “real milita”

      oh yeah..absolutely

      a real milita always marches hand in hand with government force

      if those guys were a real milita they would have been out there arresting themselves

  26. Somehow I have a feeling that all the assholes on the Left crowing about this man’s death will not say a goddamn word about “Hands up! Don’t Shoot!” Nah, LaVoy will just be dismissed as just another dumbass redneck who got what he deserved from “The Man”. Cause, like idiots on the Right, the Culture War is all that matters and when “the other side bleeds” is all it takes to show the sadistic level of schadenfreude many humans exhibit. Instead of it being a tragedy that a human being lost his life for the sole crime of “trespass” on “Public Land”, it will be “Good riddance”. To all the fuckheads calling these people terrorists…look up the term Blowback and then ask yourself a really hard question: do you REALLY want to find out what REAL terrorists would do when their kind are killed?

  27. The FBI statement says they were pulled over for “federal probable cause arrest” for conspiracy to impede officers through the use of force, intimidation, or threats.

    Notice, it doesn’t say anything about there being a warrant. It makes it sound like the feds arrested them for driving down the street. If the FBI had a warrant, they would say so, right?

    So what exactly was their probable cause?

    Enquiring minds want to know.

    1. Might have gotten something through their fishing expedition. http://thefreethoughtproject.c…..g-militia/ .(Thanks Susan M.)

      1. That’s what I linked to above!

        After that, you’d have to be crazy to believe anything the media says about what the militia people have done / are doing.

        And the media is getting all of their information from the FBI?

        That’s like reporting on the Iraq War based on press releases from Baghdad Bob.

        Anybody else remember Baghdad Bob?


        1. Sorry, Ken, I missed that. I just want to know how long these people have fully trusted the FBI’s version of events. 1960? 70? Facts are trickling in and people are glad someone got killed. Lunatics.

    2. As said above, AM radio said DUI…. might mean shit.

      Johnny Horton, sink the bismarck, for mood:


      1. We fired our guns and the British kept a comin’
        but there wasn’t as many as there was a while ago.
        We fired once more and the began a runnin’
        way down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

        They ran through the briars,
        and they ran through the bushes.
        They ran through places that a rabbit wouldn’t go.
        They ran so fast that the hounds couldn’t catch ’em
        way down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

        1. Old Hickory said we can take em by surprise if we didn’t fire our muskets till we looked’em in the eye

          1. I’d hate like hell to get hit by a musket ball. Seventy five caliber of bone breaking lead. Ouch.

    3. So what exactly was their probable cause?

      FYTW is sufficient.

      Or how about an oldie “Conspiracy to commit mopery.”

      1. MAD Magazine was covering this in a satirical way in the late 50s. My first exclamation after reading a page or two “They are allowed to print this?” I was 14 or 15.

  28. “Three people were arrested in Polk County for selling moonshine on Facebook, deputies said….

    “Once the illegal liquor, which was in mason jars, was exchanged for money, detectives arrested [the suspects].
    [The female suspect] told detectives that [her boyfriend] had been arrested the night before by deputies on unrelated drug charges, and she continued to use his cellphone and Facebook page in an attempt to sell moonshine, to raise enough money for his bond.”

  29. I’ve read that this Finicum dude that was killed was an articulate and vocal supporter of this group’s cause. Maybe that’s why he was the one shot….dangerous fellow.

    1. That occurred to me as well. The rationale would be that silencing him would be a gamble on creating a martyr, but with the media basically being in cahoots with the government, they could get away with it.

  30. Summary of the “progressive view: “They were decently treated. They were decently fed; and then they were decently shot.”

    And I suspect that the label of “right-wing terrorist” will also be applied to anyone with the temerity to doubt the Official Account of Events provided by the feds.

  31. Shooting Finicum was stupid on the FBI’s part, now they made a martyr out of him, granted not all the details have been released yet but then again with the Feds involved they can pretty much conjure up some convenient details to inform the peasants.

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