Endangered species

Here's What the Guy Who Paid $50,000 to Kill Cecil the Lion Can Learn from the Guy Who Paid $350,000 to Kill a Black Rhino

Done right, paid hunts for endangered animals can be a huge boon for conservation

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cecil
wikimedia

Days after the news of the death of Cecil the Lion broke—and weeks after the actual hunt—the Internet is still in an uproar. The dentist/hunter who killed the beloved big cat has shuttered his business in Eden Prairie, Minnesota, and seems to have gone missing. Everyone from Betty White to Zimbabwe's minister of the environment is pissed.

At least part of the outcry seems to be focused on the fact that Walter Palmer regularly paid big bucks to go on big game hunts. From CNN:

"As troubling as it is, the rarer these trophy hunted animals become, the more hunters are willing to pay to kill them—like the American hunter who recently paid $350,000 to kill a critically endangered black rhino in Namibia," said Jeff Flocken, the [International Fund for Animal Welfare]'s North American regional director.

But the problem isn't that Palmer paid a lot of money to hunt a lion, it's that he didn't pay enough money, he paid it to the wrong people, and he killed the wrong lion.

As far as I can tell, Palmer screwed up by using dodgy guides who in turn used illegal practices to lure an animal that should have been off-limits for many reasons, including that it lived on protected land and that he was part of an Oxford research project. In a public statement, Palmer has said he believed his guides were on the up-and-up and that all his permits were in order, but he should have been more meticulous about checking out the legitimacy of the operation, especially since he already had a felony record for botching a bear hunt. It's unclear how much he was involved in the coverup when it became clear that the lion was not a legitimate target.

But too much of the coverage has elided of the fact that hunts like the one Palmer says he thought he was on can be carried out perfectly legally and, more importantly, are a huge boon for wildlife conservation.

Here's the story of even more expensive and high-profile hunt, flawlessly executed:

rhino

American Corey Knowlton paid $350,000 for a permit to hunt a black rhino in Namibia under the auspices of the Dallas Safari Club back in January 2014. Black rhinos are critically endangered, and Knowlton received death threats after the permit auction, but the details of his hunt are likely to win over all but the most ardent hunting opponents.

For starters, the money will go to fight poaching. (That's right: this pay-to-play hunt will help fund efforts to prevent exactly the kind of crappy practices used by Palmer's team) The permit from the Namibian government authorized only the killing of one of 18 elderly male black rhinos, which are actually considered a net negative for overall species survival, since they are past their breeding years but remain territorial and are therefore a threat to the younger males. Knowlton and his well-vetted team whittled that list to just four animals and were obsessively carefully about finding the right rhino to kill. 

At one point during the hunt, they felt visibility wasn't good enough to be sure they were getting the right animal, so they headed to a new location to hunt one of the approved rhinos, only to discover that it has beaten them to the punch by dying of natural causes, likely old age–related. 

Yet according to an account from a CNN journalist who rode along on the hunt, the kill was no less thrilling for its careful targeting and elderly quarry and when it was over Knowlton felt he had done the right thing:

Knowlton walks up from behind the rhino and when he's certain it's over, he kneels next to it.

"Any time you take an animal's life it's an emotional thing," Knowlton said.

The Namibian government official assures Knowlton it is the rhino on the approved hunting list. The trackers smile with relief and shake hands.

I ask Knowlton if he still feels that killing this black rhino was the right thing to do and that it will benefit the future of this endangered species.

"I felt like from day one it was something benefiting the black rhino," reflected just moments after the hunt ended. "Being on this hunt, with the amount of criticism it brought and the amount of praise it brought from both sides, I don't think it could have brought more awareness to the black rhino."

If the accounts of a grisly two-day march to find the wounded Cecil, followed by a scramble to cover up the fact that he was collared and therefore should have been off-limits, are accurate, the closing moments of Palmer's hunt were nothing like this one. And hunts like Palmer's are likely more common than Knowlton's. But the fact that money exchanged hands wasn't the problem with Palmer's hunt—and it was probably the most praiseworthy party of Knowlton's.

Semi-related: If Palmer wasn't spending his money on big game hunts, it looks like he'd be spending it on GOP candidates. Which is more harmful? Your call.

Full disclosure: I'm on the record being bummed about narrowly missing the chance to eat South African lion meat. I later got the the chance to do so. It wasn't very good.  

NEXT: National Abortion Federation seeks pretrial injunction blocking release of videos of its conference [UPDATE: injunction granted]

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  1. How much do you want to bet that most people “outraged” about this dumbass shit couldn’t even find the country it happened in on map if their lives depended on it?

    1. That was great fun during Kony 2012. Post a map of Africa, get them to try to tell you where Uganda is.

      1. Hey, they’d be one up on me since I still don’t know who the fuck Kony is. And don’t much care, either.

        To me, it’s one gigantic evasion. There are things going on in the country and in the world that could actually use this sort of outrage to effect actual change – pick an ideology, pick a victim group, there’s plenty of urgent causes involving real people to choose from whatever your politics – but I guess it’s easier to signal outrage over a situation that can’t be changed and avoid taking a stand where something actually has to be done.

        1. I think you might be onto something.

        2. I don’t remember Kony on the ballot.

        3. The only thing I know about Kony is they named an Island after him. With a carnival on it. I think he might have something to do with the circus.

        4. You see, gay marriage is not legal so they don’t exactly know what to complain about at the moment,

    2. And many of the outraged love them some McDonalds.

    3. After reading half of the post below I can say two things for certain.

      1. If Cecil were alive today he would eat ice cream out of my hand, even if he bit my hand off first.

      2. Cecil is more important than Hillary releasing overly redacted emails and John Kerry admitting that even though Iran chants ” Death to America” it’s not actually their policy.

      May God have mercy on our souls.

      1. Cecil The Lion is the most important issue of our time. That white guy who killed him is basically the reincarnation of Hitler himself, and deserves summary execution. But that won’t bring back Cecil, so we need to keep this guy alive for a while longer just so we have an object to direct our blind rage towards. After we’re done screaming at him on Twitter and all the two-thousand word think pieces about white male entitlement and it’s relation to the rape of Africa have been written, we can maybe just turn him over to ISIS.

        After he’s dead we can then get on with the business of asking every Republican presidential candidate their position on Cecil The Lion, just to make sure it dominates the news cycle for at least another few months.

  2. Razorback hunting is good fun. Rhino hunting must be what… 4X that?

    1. I don’t know, bigger doesn’t mean better. I always liked bird hunting better than deer hunting because there’s a lot more action and it’s more fun shooting a bird on the wing than waiting in a tree stand and wacking a deer when it walks by.

      1. Go deer hunting in CO, Utah or Nevada, then. It’s all stalking. Although bird hunting is still more fun. Quail is the best, because it combines stalking and shooting on the wing, and the limits are generally higher.

        1. And way less work to cut off the wings, tear out the breasts, and throw the rest in the bush for the coyotes, vs field dressing a deer.

        2. Heck just drive around Princeton in the fall at nighttime. You’re bound to knock off a deer in no time.

      2. Unfair comparison.

        Deer hunting is at a natural disadvantage because shooting a beautiful man is difficult.

      3. I am the same. Deer hunting is just sitting around watching paint dry and then shooting what is basically a dumb dog with hooves.

        1. A tasty dumb dog with hooves.

          1. VERY tasty.

            1. I’m with WTF and John on this one. I’ve only hunted deer once, and it was from a stand, and it was boring.

              I’ve only hunted hog since then (problem population in Texas), but if/when I go for deer again, I’m going to stalk them.

              1. You’re supposed to drink beer and talk with your buddies. Then shoot the deer 100 yards away at the feeder.

              2. There are few places in Texas where you can stalk deer. Maybe out toward Big Bend or in the panhandle. But to do it you need elevation changes and some openness to the terrain. Northwest Nevada is actually about perfect, there are ridges coming up from wide shallow rivers and you can avoid the animals getting a direct sight line on you until you come up over a ridge, so you actually have a chance. Colorado is harder, but the mountainous terrain and pine forest makes it possible to close on a deer. But growing up I always hunted around Llano or in South Texas, so a stand was the only possible way to actually get anything. Stalking is much more fun.

                1. I’d honestly rather go back empty-handed than sit in a fuckin’ stand all day again drinking beer.

                  I can go out on a fishing boat if I wanted to do that.

                  Also I want to buy the bow-fishing attachment for my bow and hunt alligator gar with it down south (I live up by Dallas).

                  1. Bow fishing is awesome, but gar tastes like shit. Go East and bow fish for Reds.

                    1. Good advice, thank you.

                2. Our family ranch is in the Eagle Ford Shale. Can only stalk with bows now, too easy for a stray shot to hit something that will go “boom.”

                  1. And you’d been so stoked at the idea of owning one of those badass flamethrowers!

                3. You’d have to stalk in the Trans-Pecos. Or if it was your own land you could always follow Texas tradition and shoot them when they walk up to the feeder or tank. Fucking mule deer all over out there in the mountains.

        2. You can stalk deer in the East. Then you have the fun of trying to move very slowly and extremely quietly and hope you come over a hill and stumble on some bucks fighting. So essentially you take a walk with a gun. It’s more fun than a regular walk. And on the rare occasions that you see anything, you have the fun of shooting them before they notice you and run away.

          1. Can anyone give me some advice on where to find wild boar or feral pigs in Ohio, or not too far across the state border? I keep hearing that these things are problematic and that property owners want them exterminated. Here in Ohio, there’s no bag limit and, if I remember right, you have much more leeway on what types of guns you can use.

            1. Well, there was that truck of piglets that crashed near, where was it, Xenia? They should be a problem starting soon. Otherwise your best bet should be the West Virginia parts of Ohio.

            2. “where to find wild boar or feral pigs in Ohio”

              Oberlin

        3. Deer hunting from a stand is hours of boredom with 5 minutes of insane excitement.

          After that it is 8 hours of drudgework to convert the deer into venison in the freezer.

          But I still do it. A lot of it is because of the tradition surrounding the deer camp (although in my case it is my father’s house). The stories, watching my kids get involved.

      4. WTF.

        This. Myhunting sentaments excatly.

        Quail fly crazy. The US defense department should build fighter planes that can fly like quail not dove.

  3. It’s the way he killed the lion that’s also a problem, and I say this as a hunter.
    1. He baited the lion out of a protected park.
    2. The lion apparently had grown to like being around people.
    3. He took a poor shot with a bow which resulted in wounding the lion, who suffered for 40 hours before being tracked and finally killed with a rifle.
    None of this is sporting or ethical, so fuck him.

    1. I thought it was the guides who baited the lion out of the park, and furthermore didn’t actually have a permit to hunt a lion in the first place. He thought they were legit and they weren’t. Not nearly enough outrage is being directed at the two guides, it’s all being directed at him. Granted he deserves at least some grief over this, but to lose his entire livelihood and have his life completely ruined? I don’t think so, unless it turns it he’s full of shit and knew the whole time that the hunt wasn’t on the up and up, and willingly participated in the attempted coverup after they found the wounded lion.

      As I said in an earlier thread, I think most of the SJW twitter mob’s outrage is over the fact that this guy is a “rich white guy” who could afford $50,000 for a lion hunting trip in the first place. Leave it to the Perpetual Outrage Brigade to make this guy seem somewhat sympathetic.

      1. He knew damn well they were baiting the lion out of the park. Or else why did he think they were dragging a dead animal behind the truck?

        1. He knew damn well they were baiting the lion out of the park.

          You know this for a fact? You know for a fact that he knew where the boundary line between the park and the private land they were hunting on was? Or was he trusting the assholes he was with? I don’t know the answer to those questions, since I wasn’t there, and I’m assuming you weren’t either, so you don’t know what the guides he was with told him either.

          Like I said, he deserves some grief for this, but the two guides were clearly very shady assholes, and the twitter mob isn’t saying a god-damned thing about them, just the EVUL RICH WHITE GUY. It’s just the fucking SJWs getting their 2 minutes hate on. They don’t really give a shit about ethical hunting practices or anything else. Shit, if he’d hunted and killed a regular old lion and not a tourist attraction no one would have cared.

          1. Given his prior record, I suspect it was willful ignorance.

            1. It’s entirely possible it was willful ignorance. I think the guy’s douchecanoe (perhaps that point wasn’t made clear enough in my prior posts), but I also think TEAM OUTRAGE are a bunch of douchecanoes too. It’s douchecanoes all the way down.

                1. Whatever floats your boat

              1. I tend to agree with you. You hire a Professional Hunter (PH) who is licenced, and is supposed to know what to kill, where, etc. You are supposed to trust your PH. In general they will tell you not to take a shot if they don’t think it is a good one. If the PH was not licensed, etc, I’m not sure how you would know. But I am also not a fan of bow hunting – too much wounding. Not like you can’t wound with a rifle too, but you get more of it with a bow.

        2. So that’s how you tow a lion, huh?

      2. yeah, it’s not as if he has some qualms about gay marriage, for that you deserve to have your life ruined.

    2. The lion was also collared (part of a research study); he used a bow and arrow, hard to believe he didn’t see the collar.

      1. Maybe because he didn’t bother to get close enough to take a good shot with a bow, which is why the lion had to suffer for 40 hours until they tracked him and shot him with a rifle.

        1. Maybe because he didn’t bother to get close enough to take a good shot with a bow, which is why the lion had to suffer for 40 hours

          That’s the biggest thing that we know for a fact that this guy is guilty of: not bothering (or caring) enough to make sure he got a good clean killshot before shooting the lion, causing it to suffer needlessly. He’s definitely a douchenozzle for that.

      2. Hard to see it beneath the mane?

        1. Based on the pictures in the BBC story, no. Not hard to see.

          1. It’s almost like a fuckin’ rhinestone collar.

      3. Ding, ding. That’s where I fall off the wagon. If you are bow hunting, no way should you take a shot at a collared animal. You shouldn’t take a bow shot unless you are easily close enough to spot the collar, and you should never shoot an animal that you haven’t given a good once-over to.

        Anybody can make a bad shot. I don’t hold that against him (unless the shot just shouldn’t have been taken – bad light, out of range, etc.). Bow hunting is very tricky that way – not only is it inherently a lot less accurate than a gun, animals will “jump the string”; they hear the release, and have time to flinch before the arrow gets there.

        1. True and I thought I read the hunt was at night ?

          Nere the less, this is much ado about nothing.

          It’s like this ..Clinton released more emails today with many redactions about sensitive issues……hey look a pet tame lion named Cecil who would love to read bedtime stories to your children has been shot by a white guy.

    3. It’s hard to believe a dentist, of all people, would cause that much pain and suffering.

    4. People bait game animals out of National Parks in the US. It can be perfectly legal depending on the game laws outside the park. I have no idea what the Zimbabwe game laws are like. I think this whole issue arose because Cecil was the de facto property of some college boy Euro-crackers who poured a bunch of cash into Zimbabwe officials’ pockets

  4. For the first 9 words of the alt-text I thought KMW was making a “Tow the lion” joke.

  5. But the problem isn’t that Palmer paid a lot of money to hunt a lion, it’s that he didn’t pay enough money, he paid it to the wrong people, and he killed the wrong lion.

    Incorrect. His problem was that he was dumb enough to let this part of his life get on to social media, where the outrage parasites could find it and feed on it.

    You want to get your life fucked beyond comprehension? Do something that will trigger TEAM OUTRAGE and put it on social media. And…you’re done. These vampires want nothing more than someone else’s life to suck off of.

    1. This isn’t TEAM. People like animals. If you don’t want to get in trouble don’t shoot a fucking lion that has been made into a zoo animal for western tourists and then brag about it on social media.

      1. It’s a fucking animal, John. Note that the vast, vast majority of people losing their shit over this and calling for this guy’s head couldn’t even be bothered to know or care about what’s happening to humans in the very same country. It’s sociopathic.

        1. so what? You don’t care about humans or animals. They are still higher on the food chain than you. More importantly, the people angry about this are not from any particular TEAM. So your are going to have to come up with a new move for this one besides TEAM.

          I think this guy is a dick and I am on the TEAM that is supposedly not supposed to be outraged about this. And I am not alone.

          1. How are they higher on the food chain? Humans are the top predatory species on earth. There is nothing above us, because we can use tools to more than even things up with their nasty big pointy teeth.

            1. How are they higher on the food chain? Humans are the top predatory species on earth.

              They’re not higher up on the food chain than normal human beings; they’re just higher up on the food chain than Episiarch. Not to mention the evolutionary ladder.

          2. John, you’re going to need to be less incoherent if you’re going to talk to me. I can’t parse Imbecile very well. Maybe NutraSweet can translate for me.

            1. You need to go fuck yourself and come up with something else to say beyond TEAM. At what point did you decide to become tiresome and retarded?

              Fuck you, I have actually hunted and have some knowledge and respect for the sport. Based on that, I can say with confidence this guy is a disgrace to hunting and diserves to be shammed.

              No yell something about PROJECTION and complete your act. Come on Episiarch, TEAM and PROJECTION are literally the only things you have to say anymore about anything.

              1. John, I have a question. Does your butt hurt this much every day, or is it just some days? Because it sure seems like your butt hurts every minute of every day.

                1. One of the side effects of not being retarded Episiarch is occasionally your butt will hurt about something. Since you are a fucking retard who has no intelligent opinion about anything, it is a side effect y ou likely have never experienced. But you should try thinking some time. The butt hurt isn’t as bad as being stupud.

                  1. We all want cake, John.

                    1. I know. But there is more to life than cake as crazy as that sounds.

          3. 90+% of the people outraged eat cheeseburgers, and bacon, and wear leather belts and shoes.

            Are you Vegan, John? Because if you’re not, I would check my outrage.

            1. False analogy.

        2. Note that the vast, vast majority of people losing their shit over this and calling for this guy’s head couldn’t even be bothered to know or care about what’s happening to humans in the very same country.

          Not only that but if the hunt had been a “legitimate” hunt similar to the black rhino hunt described above, no one on TEAM OUTRAGE would have ever heard about it, or the outrage would have been much shorter and much less severe. It’s only because he killed, seemingly accidentally, a lion that had been a tourist attraction and his shady guides had baited and lured it out of the park that it lived in and then tried to cover it up (probably because they didn’t even have a permit to hunt lion in the first place, much less a tourist favorite). Oh, and because he’s an EVUL RICH WHITE DUDE. It’s just an excuse for them to get their 2 minutes hate on.

          1. . It’s only because he killed, seemingly accidentally, a lion that had been a tourist attraction and his shady guides had baited and lured it out of the park that it lived in and then tried to cover it up (probably because they didn’t even have a permit to hunt lion in the first place, much less a tourist favorite).

            Tough shit. I guess he should have hired better guides. Since when is “but I hired someone I thought knew better” alleviate someone from being responsible for their actions?

            Yeah, you go to Africa hunting, you better make sure you get people who know what they are doing. If you don’t, sucks to be you.

            1. Since when is “but I hired someone I thought knew better” alleviate someone from being responsible for their actions?

              Since mandatory professional licensing became a thing? (I do agree with you here.)

            2. Since when is “but I hired someone I thought knew better” alleviate someone from being responsible for their actions?

              He’s definitely responsible for the actions that we know for a fact he did. He’s the one who shot the lion with a bow and apparently wasn’t good enough with it to kill it in one shot, causing it to needlessly suffer before they found it and finished it off. He bears the responsibility for that, and personally I hope it haunts him the rest of his life.

              A lot people though seem to be assuming that he knew the whole time the lion they were hunting was a famous tourist attraction and that he participated in the attempted cover-up, but there’s no way to know for sure either way. The guy’s a dickhead for sure, but as of now no more so than any other dickhead who hunts purely for sport with no intention of using the animal(s) they kill.

              If it turns out he really did know what he was doing was illegal and participated in the cover up, then I hope he gets Lou Gherig’s disease, or gets attacked and eaten by a lion.

      2. Maybe it’s TEAM likes-animals. Which is a big one, but not everyone. There are plenty of people who don’t give a shit if every lion is killed.

        But I think you are right, TEAM isn’t so much at play in this one. Even without the extra sketchy stuff in this case, hunting endangered big game is pretty broadly unpopular.

    2. Incorrect. His problem was that he was dumb enough to let this part of his life get on to social media, where the outrage parasites could find it and feed on it.

      I thought this was initially reported on because it was poaching. I’m not sure that he got himself in trouble this way. I mean, obviously it didn’t help.

      1. Yeah, I think this one was a news story even without his social media idiocy.

  6. the Conservative blogshere has lost its fucking mind on this issue. Somehow the only reason anyone would be angry about this is because they can’t face the truth about planned parenthood or something.

    I have no problem with hunitng. But hunting is not just killing something that isn’t smart enough to be afraid of you. And hunting should not involve making an animal suffer like this guy did. Lastly, people need to stop calling this guy a “big game hunter”. Big game hunting involves actual hunting and actual risk not killing what amounts to a zoo animal, which is what this guy did.

    Fuck this guy. Let the mob have him.

    1. ^^^^ THIS and WTF above. ’nuff said.

    2. the Conservative blogshere has lost its fucking mind on this issue

      You don’t have to condone what this guy did to be turned off by the utterly ridiculous and infantile anthropomorphizing of Cecil that’s being done by American and European whites who didn’t even know who the fuck this lion was before this week. He was “beloved” by park rangers and a few rich white tourists and that’s about it.

      Non-African whites are getting bent out of shape about it because they’re projecting their childhood memories of The Lion King and PBS Nature shows on to this incident. As the Reuters article yesterday showed, most Zimbabweans couldn’t give two shits about Cecil, because they are killed by African megafauna every year on a regular basis. Throw these simpering children into the bush for a few weeks, I guarantee you they’ll emerge with a FAR less romantic view of “those beautiful creatures!!” than they had before.

    3. And hunting should not involve making an animal suffer like this guy did.

      I doubt that was his plan. Maybe he took a bad shot, I don’t know. But I do know expert bow hunters who are highly ethical, and most of them can tell a story or two about lost animals, or animals that covered ground and took awhile to find.

      Big game hunting involves actual hunting and actual risk not killing what amounts to a zoo animal, which is what this guy did.

      Again, we don’t know if that was his plan, or if he hired dodgy guides accidentally. Trust me, hiring a hunting guide is a shot in the dark, especially in a foreign country. Its entirely possible to hire a bad guide, with the best of intentions.

      I wouldn’t assume he sat down one day and said “I want to illegally hunt a famous lion, and make it suffer”. Maybe he was negligent in hiring, but maybe not. Its entirely possible to get the same outcome with the best intentions and skills. I have a hard time with any shot at a collared animal, so I think he deserves some abuse, but lets not assume he’s history second-greatest monster (after Nikki).

      Caveat: I have not followed the detail on this. Its possible, maybe even probable, based on other information, that he was malicious.

      1. You know who else was history’s greatest monster?

        Grover.

  7. If Palmer wasn’t spending his money on big game hunts, it looks like he’d be spending it on GOP candidates.

    AND HE’S AN EVUL TEATHUGLIKKKAN TOO?! BURN HIM! BUUUURRRRRRNNNNNNN HIMMMMM!!!!!11!!!11!!11!!!!!!! /progtard

  8. I don’t want to see another news article call this lion “beloved” without citing an actual human being who loved the damned thing.

    I have yet to hear from a single person who had even HEARD of Cecil prior to last week.

    1. I am pretty sure the hoards of rich Western tourists who go on safari every year did. And since when does an animal have to be loved to get people who like animals outraged about killing it?

      1. I’m pretty sure none of them gave a fck which lion they saw.

      2. You can’t call it “beloved” if nobody loves it.

        1. Someone cared enough to give Cecil an expensive necklace. So there!

    2. An article I read said no one in Zimbabwe gave a shit about this. They’re too busy not working.

      1. They’re too busy not working.

        And hauling around wheelbarrows full of “Mugabe-bucks” in order to buy anything.

        1. And making jenckem out of shit-stew

  9. “I later got the the chance to do so. It wasn’t very good”

    I’ve generally found carnivore meat to not be very good. Notable exceptions, rattle snake and alligator.

    1. I love alligator. It’s like fatty white meat chicken.

      1. Yeah, it’s like somebody took the best qualities of every type of poultry, put it all in one animal, then made it lethal on both ends.

      2. Reptile predators are the way to go. Goddammit America, get your gator meat industry going so I don’t have to go to Florida to enjoy it.

    2. Rattlesnake is a lot of work for tiny little bites. It’s worse than buffalo wings.

      1. I would argue that most things are worse than Buffalo wings.

  10. Semi-related: If Palmer wasn’t spending his money on big game hunts, it looks like he’d be spending it on GOP candidates. Which is more harmful? Your call.

    Because Romney would have been worse than Obama?

    1. For all those who claim Reason writers are NOT actually actually progs – looking forward to great reading this campaign season.

      1. Oh dear.

        Yeah, they are actually progs who have decided that trying to trick libertarians (into what, I’m not sure) is the best strategy. What fucking world do you live in?

        1. Zeb – I’m responding specifically to the GOP quote from this story. Completely irrelevant to the story. If you have a different take-away, please share. I don’t understand the “trick libertarians” comment, and certainly no need for a personal attack.

          1. Sorry if I misunderstood the intent of your comment.

      2. RAHeinlein, for what it’s worth, I never saw your Chicago posts. I wasn’t around Reason regularly those days.

  11. So why again can wildlife preserves police their boundaries but nations can’t? I’m sure it’s a totally compelling argument that doesn’t rely on cosmotarian mood affiliation. If you don’t want black rhinos to go extinct have a menagerie otherwise you are just imposing your fascist belief on every one else.

    1. Fuck off, you boring piece of shit.

      1. My my all that anger makes it seem like you don’t have a response. Caution slavers at work.

        1. It’s not a response you fucking mongoloid. But no one would expect you to know the difference.

      2. He is right.

        1. You can be 100% correct and still be a piece of shit. Haysom is troll.

        2. No he’s not.

          A wildlife reserve is either private property, or state owned property that the state is administering as if its private property.

          The state doesn’t own my house. They should have no say who I rent it to. If the state did own my house, then them deciding who can come into it and who couldn’t would arguably be their call.

          Now we can question whether nation states should be permitted arbitrarily declare bits of territory wildlife preserves and then raze the villages and go all Armenian genocide on the asses of the unfortunates living there.

          But once an estate is amassed, the owner deciding to leave it fallow to attract wildlife is a legitimate use of the property. It has no parallel to national boundries unless one is a fascist who believes that all aspects of society are under the purview of the state or are a commie who doesn’t believe in private property at all.

          1. Dammit. Better put, more detailed and faster. I failed 3 times.

            1. I personally am in awe of your succinctness.

              I tend towards excessive wordiness.

        3. He is not. Wildlife preserves are not necessarily government-owned, and property owners can decide what is allowed on their own property.

          1. This one is. The vast majority of them are.

            1. They are still property owned by a government. An entire nation is not owned by the government. That’s why it’s not the same. It’s pretty fucking simple to understand. The entire country is not the property of the government. Apparently you would like it to be, but happily that is not yet the case.
              Whether governments should own property like that is another question.

              1. If the government doesn’t own your property, then why do you have to pay a yearly rental fee or face losing your property?

    2. So why again can wildlife preserves police their boundaries but nations can’t?

      Every decent person realizes at some point that it’s futile trying to teach devoted commies about property rights.

      They just lack the mental ability to comprehend the concept.

      1. The vast majority of wildlife preserves are government. Are you ignorant of this fact or simplying pretending to be obtuse?

        1. See what I mean folks?

          It’s futile to argue with commies.

          1. No it’s impossible to get away with deceitful arguments when arguing with someone smarter and better informed than you. Again if borders are just an imaginary line then government-own nature preserves are as well. Cecil didn’t live in a privately owned nature preserve. You are the own being stubborn and trying to change the subject.

            1. He already explained above – regardless of your view of the legitimacy of it, state owned nature preserves are owned by the government. Nations are not owned by the government, governments reside in nations but hold no ownership over them, if I’m understanding tarran correctly.

    3. Economic incentives. Sure governments can police their boundaries, but it’s a question of how good at it they are, and making sure they’re not being corrupted and such.

  12. Admittedly, this slacktivism is slightly less stupid than Kony, because at least this was something that happened fairly recently once, while Kony was in operation for years and everyone only gave a shit after he lost and someone recorded a child giving foreign policy advice.

  13. It doesn’t matter what he did to the lion, or how much it suffered, because only humans have rights. There is no right to life, or to be free of suffering, or anything else, for an animal, and all animal abuse laws are contrary to this basic notion and should be repealed. Only humans have rights.

    Discuss.

    1. I’m with JJ. Also, now I want to have sex with him. Is that so wrong?

    2. This absolutely should be the principled libertarian position. But libertarian mood affiliation and status-envy requires deference to left wing concerns.

    3. Only humans have rights.

      Mmmmaybe. I’m thinking that we could solve the immigration problem with an analogous process.

      1. WHY HASN’T ANYONE THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE!!!

        1. You’re close to the border (compared to me, anyway). There’s lots of land there. Can you raise any objection whatsoever to selling permits for beaner hunting? It would raise money for their conservation.

          1. No, I’ve wracked my brain and can’t think of a single objection to hunting beaners. However, I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that just west of you there’s still a lot of open land, so you can also sell permits for Canucks. French-speaking ones don’t count towards the limit.

            1. We have no interest in conserving Quebecois.

              1. It’s like you don’t even acknowledge I’m in the room.

                1. You and I both know you’re not real Quebecois Rufus, you’re from Dagostan or wherever it is wops come from. Somewhere greasy.

                  1. I just want to be accepted!

            2. No, I’ve wracked my brain and can’t think of a single objection to hunting beaners.

              I can think of one:

              Beaners can shoot back.

            3. We’re lousy hunting. We just walk up with a smile on our face saying ‘sorry’. It’s worse than hunting zoo animals, because most zoo animals are unhappy.

      2. America’s New Immigration Application Policy:This one kills only animals.

    4. Humans have a right… not to have rare species get hunted to extinction in one of the human male’s endless supply of dick measuring hobbies.

      1. OK, so your sense of esthetics should be the determining factor, right?

        1. If people decide they value not having rare species get hunted to extinction, they should be free to set up regulations to prevent it. Aesthetic value is still value. We’re not on this earth only to consume resources and engage in basic biological functions.

          1. This applies to things like obscenity right? Right? Surely it does.

            1. Yes, obscenity should not be hunted to extinction as doing so would require unacceptable restrictions on free speech.

            2. Evidently it does.

          2. “If people decide they value not having rare species get hunted to extinction, they should be free to set up regulations to prevent it. Aesthetic value is still value. We’re not on this earth only to consume resources and engage in basic biological functions.”

            Most people don’t seem to care at all, just some vocal rich folk thousands of miles away.

            1. Most people don’t seem to care at all, just some vocal rich folk thousands of miles away.

              That brings up an interesting hypothetical. If a lion or some other big cat that vocal rich folks wished to protect was actively causing problems that damaged the livelihoods of poor local people (picking off herd animals, threatening or attacking children, etc.), does the vocal rich folks’ opinion supersede that of the poor local people? I mean, if we’re stupid enough to frame it in the context of a ‘right’?

              1. Well there are locals in Zimbabwe that are pissed that there is all this fuss about lion very much like the ones that fucking kill their cattle and kill the odd human now and then.

                1. Oh, I’m aware, I’m more just pointing out that the implication of animals’ existence as a ‘right’ just screams ‘I, as a spoiled, rich Westerner, have a right to see pretty animals that I like. Poor people must accept being less safe and less wealthy communities because my aesthetic values are more important than their well-being.’

              2. I think that the vocal rich folks are divided on that matter.

              3. Good thing the Champawatt Tiger was killed before Westerners got all wussified!

                1. (Good for poor Indian folk, that is)

            2. If people decide they value not having rare species get hunted to extinction, they should be free to set up regulations to prevent it.

              Rather than making yet another failure-to-obey death penalty law for humans, perhaps they should be free to buy land, set up wildlife preserves and breeding programs, and all the other shit that doesn’t involve give jackbooted goons yet another excuse to assault, imprison, and/or kill people.

              And, yeah, this lion was hunted off of a preserve just like that. So what? Its one lion. This one lion has exactly zero relevance to the survival of the species.

          3. We’re not on this earth only to consume resources and engage in basic biological functions.

            Holy fuck. You realize that is the ENTIRE premise of welfare, don’t you? Your whole existence is predicated on that assumption!

      2. You and Sam Haysom should fight to the death. Then at least one of you would stop posting inane non sequiturs.

        1. Non sequitur being libertarian for inconvenient question that punctures my spergy bubble.

          1. Non sequitur being bringing up border security in a discussion of the killing of an animal in a case that has nothing to do with borders, or trying to overcome the assertion that animals have rights by saying you somehow own every animal on earth and can thus transfer your rights to them to keep them from being killed.

            1. trying to overcome the assertion that animals have rights by saying you somehow own every animal on earth

              That’s not so much a non-sequitur as hilariously pathetic megalomania.

            2. It has everything to do with boundary rights. That’s what the issue about luring the lion out of the preserve is about. Honestly you are really stupid to miss that.

              1. And you are too stupid to realize that the entire country is not the property of the government.

          2. No no no. That’s just Vogon Poetry.

        2. You and Sam Haysom should fight to the death. Then at least one of you would stop posting inane non sequiturs.

          I LOLed

      3. “Humans have a right… not to have rare species get hunted to extinction in one of the human male’s endless supply of dick measuring hobbies.”

        Is that “right” listed below the right to wifi?

        (Are African Lions even endangered?)

        1. I don’t think they’re on the list yet, but it is proposed by the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and one estimate has them extinct by 2050. But I’m sure the free market will take care of it.

          1. Tony, I know I’m asking a lot here, but I want you to think about something. Why is it that the buffalo nearly went extinct but cattle were never even endangered? If you ever understand the answer to that question, you’ll be one step further from being a douche.

            1. My understanding is that bison are not good candidates for domestication and thus were never farmed or eventually industrialized like the more docile cattle.

              1. My understanding is that bison are not good candidates for domestication

                Every summer, I go hunting on a ranch with a very large bison herd that is worked by cowboys and ranched for their meat.

                They only suffer as a domesticated food source by comparison with cattle.

            2. Look at the history of the Louisiana alligator. As soon as a financial incentive was created to propagate alligators instead of poaching them they went from endangered to roach-like population levels.

            3. Weren’t buffalo over hunted by…dare I say…NATIVES?!

              1. Their favorite method was to use fire to stampede enormous herds over cliffs.

                1. That seems like overkill, but is there evidence that the bison were headed for extinction before white people on trains started shooting them?

                  The stuff about Indians being in perfect harmony with the environment is obvious bullshit, but they did seem to do a better job managing bison populations. Or maybe it was just because there weren’t very many of them. I don’t know.

              2. And the Natives were overhunted by Europeans, whose claim to superiority, interestingly, is that they happened to have been born in a region of the planet with relatively abundant domesticable species useful for farming.

                1. Does anyone really take Diamond’s argument seriously anymore? Or is just a convenient fallback?

                  1. He’s a convenient target for less famous anthropologists.

                    1. “He’s a convenient target for less famous anthropologists.”

                      Good. Punching upwards and all that.

                    2. And an intellectual midget. Ask me about the time I met him….

                      The dick was so bad at being an academic he just presumed everybody agreed with him or was stupid.

                  2. G, G, and G seemed like a pretty solid hypothesis to me. Is the dislike of the theory due to its predeterminational flavor? Or are there serious flaws that a lay person may not be aware of?

              3. One of my favorite moments in college was a video with a voiceover by a supposed Native American saying, “I will never adopt the white man’s ways.” The voiceover was superimposed over a picture of an Indian riding a horse and carrying a rifle. I pointed this out to the professor and actually got a chuckle out of him.

            4. Trains. Mass transit kills.

          2. So that Lion would still be dead even if those rights you spoke of weren’t completely made up.

      4. “Humans have a right… not to have rare species get hunted to extinction…”

        Once again you demonstrate a complete ignorance of what the word ‘right’ means.
        In fact, you are so wildly wrong here that this could be a record for you.

        1. I have a dictionary. It doesn’t say that rights are things shat out by the cosmos that only libertarians can see.

          1. What does this even mean?

            You really don’t know, do y ou?

          2. Years ago I read a column on animal rights. I think it might have been by George Will. What I remember is a line he wrote, to paraphrase: In order to have rights, you must be capable of demanding your rights.

      5. The best way to guarantee the extinction of lions and black rhinos is to outlaw hunting them.

        You’re a jackass.

        1. Maybe. I get that. I’m for sustainability. Could never personally kill even a squirrel. But I do suspect that this is also a convenient excuse for hobbyists and that there are probably more efficient ways to go about preservation, but whatever.

          1. There are not and we have plenty of real life examples to be confident about that.

          2. They make for decent stew meat.

            1. I prefer chicken and sausage in my sauce picante. Alligator is a bit rich for my taste. If you eat a bunch of it make sure you have plenty of toilet paper. Some like it better than others. I still use it now and then, but when chicken is 50 cents/lb on sale, why use anything else?

              1. “I still use it now and then, but when chicken is 50 cents/lb on sale, why use anything else?”

                Growing up, literally the only meat we ate was from hunting (or fishing/crabbing). I imagine it’s just more economical to shoot squirrels with a pellet rifle if you’re an 8 year old.

            2. Fried squirrel is quite tasty.

          3. “But I do suspect that this is also a convenient excuse for hobbyists…”

            Why don’t you explain your reasons for believing that it’s incorrect instead of just characterizing it as an “excuse”? Things are not true or false because of who benefits from them. It’s the same logic that some progs use when they say that something is Koch-funded, therefore it must be false.

            “… and that there are probably more efficient ways to go about preservation, but whatever.”

            Such as what? Laws? Tragedy of the commons + presence of poachers = tons of poachers swarming to the area to try and kill as many of the animals as they possibly can, making them extinct very quickly.

            If someone owned a huge expanse of land in Africa, they would definitely have an incentive to maintain a steady population of these rare animals, and they could make a quick 55 grand by letting some rich guy shoot one (as sustainability permits).

      6. You have no right to my property.

        Interesting point, some of these endangered African species are currently in breeding herds on private ranches in Texas.

        Again, hunting protects the species. Banning hunting kills them. Private property protects them. If you really wanted to protect these species, you’d be a libertarian.

        1. I have no right to your property because armed government goons make that so. I can’t be a libertarian because I don’t like believing in fundamental contradictions. I get property in my system too, but my system doesn’t rest on a premise of armed government goons being always evil.

          1. We prefer systems where something other than the Hive can actually own property. In your system the goons take the property. And stop fisting kittens. They don’t like it.

    5. I don’t know. This is a gray area, just like childrens’ rights. They’re not fully-formed human beings, but should that mean they have no protection from unnecessary cruelty?

      1. Nah, it’s pretty clear-cut. Children are already human, and so have the rights inherent with that.

        People only don’t want to hurt animals because they feel bad about it. Remember: only faggots and women let emotions guide their decision making. Don’t be a faggot or a woman*.

        *that’s a joke, for everybody keeping score at home.

        1. Well, I’m not sure, but I don’t wanna be a faggot, so I guess I’ll agree with you.

          1. ^^ correct answer

        2. No one is human until they learn to drive a car and speak English.

    6. It doesn’t matter what he did to the lion, or how much it suffered, because only humans have rights.

      I agree that only humans (or other comparably intelligent and sensitive beings) have rights. I’m not sure that means it doesn’t matter what happens to other sentient creatures.

      Though I am more and more tempted just to say that the only right that exists is the right to do whatever the fuck you want and take the consequences. In which case, animals do have rights. And it’s OK to kill them.

      1. That’s like saying you have a right to entropy.

  14. I don’t care enough to google it, because he isn’t a 19 year old cheerleader like the last victim of this bullshit, but how did this become a big deal? I had never heard of it until like Wednesday, and it’s everywhere. Some asshole cried about it on TV, Twitchy is obsessing over it overshadowing the PP videos, but how did it start? Did this moron actually post something on Twitter saying “I shot this lion named Cecil?”

    1. She went to a farm and shot a penned up lion. As someone who has on occasion hunted, I find that kind of thing an insult to hunting. If your idea of hunting is just shooting something in a pen, you should just go work in a slaughter house instead of paying to do it.

      That said, what she did was at least humane. This dipshit shot the thing with a bow and let it suffer for 30 hours before it died. .

      1. The chick, yeah, I got that. And I have gleaned that this asshole made a shitty shot and let the lion suffer for over a day, but how did the internet storm start?

        1. I am not sure to be honest. You shouldn’t be hunting lion with a bow in the first place. There is too much of a chance of just wounding it. It is one thing to hunt. It is another thing to just torture animals to death.

          1. . You shouldn’t be hunting lion with a bow in the first place

            Yeah, if this happens, you are shit out of luck.

          2. Misplaced bullets cause lots of suffering too.

        2. This BBC story gives a reasonable timeline. They apprehended the guide/organizers fairly quickly – then massive global outrage (primarily directed toward Zimbabwe for allowing hunts).

  15. Zimbabwe is demanding extradition, and apparently over 100,000 signatures on a petition to Obama.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33733722

    1. I wonder how many Zimbabweans actually signed the petition?

      1. Your passive-aggressive racism is lovely.

        1. What?

          1. You clearly implied that Zimbabweans can’t even write their own names!

    2. yesterday the story was “they don’t give a fuck” about killing a lion

      now, its “they want to burn the guy alive”?

      My impression is that as soon as people in zimbabwe realized they can use the story to get attention, naturally they’re going to want to cry “exploitation!” and demand all sorts of compensation.

      1. My impression is that the Zimbabwean officials don’t really represent the Zimbabwean people in this matter. And the petition, based on a quick scroll-through of a couple thousand names, is 95% Americans. The 5% who didn’t have a location named could all be concerned Zimbabweans, but I kinda doubt it.

        1. This was the story (i think) most people linked to =

          ‘What lion?’ Zimbabweans ask, amid global Cecil circus

          “”Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country,” said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker… “What is so special about this one?”

          … in Zimbabwe big wild animals such as lions, elephants or hippos are seen either as a potential meal, or a threat to people and property that needs to be controlled or killed.

          “Why are the Americans more concerned than us?” said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two…. “We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange.”

          Of course, these were actual “man on the street” Q&A responses by a local reporter, not the “official” reaction by the state

          Once they got the measure of American ‘outrage’, all Mugabe’s flunkies seem to have dived in headfirst, desperate to play along

          the reporters add some context =

          “Last year, [Zimbabwe] earned $45 million from hunting, Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority head Edison Chadziya told reporters.

          Zimbabwe had an estimated 2,000 lions on private and government-owned reserves and issued hunting quotas of 50 to 70 lions every year, Chadziya said.”

  16. Trophy hunting carnivores doesn’t make any sense or hold any appeal for me. I’m on board with hunting for meat, or even trophy hunting for a herbivore that you are going to eat the rest of, but killing a big cat just seems pointless.

    For the cheap seats, I don’t want it to be illegal, but I’m fine with everyone thinking you are an asshole for doing it.

    1. I agree completely. And I also think if you are going to hunt big game, hunt big game and take the risks that come with it. Don’t go out and shoot something in a pen or in the wild with three guides with .308s waiting to kill the thing if it puts you in any danger.

      I am down with hunting. But there is a reason why it is called hunting and not killing. What this clown did was not hunting. Should it be illegal? No. Should he be run out of the country? No. But should people think he is an asshole? Absolutely.

      1. I think I’d get killed around a big cat. I’d go “KITTY!” and then get mauled trying to pet it.

        I fear I’d be like that guy that jumped the fence to pet the cougars. Of course, those cougars were totally lovey-dovey.

        1. I am the same way. I might actually be dumb enough to not have the heart to kill it and stand there and let it eat me. I fully realize that is idiotic but I am not sure I would have the heart to pull the trigger even if it charged me. That is why I would never go lion or cougar hunting.

          1. Oh FFS (directed at me) I can’t even shoot a duck anymore. The last hunt a bunch came over within range and I was watching them eat and preen. One tucked her head under her wing and took a short nap. They are cute as hell and beautiful birds. I packed it in, drove to the store and bought a frozen duck.

            Goddammit.

            At least I can still shoot pigs and the occasional deer. At least i think so. I will find out this season.

            1. If you goose hunt, you don’t have to worry about feeling bad about it. Nasty, vicious fuckers.

              1. I went goose hunting and i felt like they deserved it.

                I did not feel the same way about deer. Ducks/geese are fucking stupid and shit on everything and laugh about it.

                Deer seem to be very aware everyone is constantly trying to kill them and they’re like, “WTF, dude?!”

            2. I’ve never gone hunting, but I hope to hunt for deer within a few years. Just for the liver. Seriously. A few friends who hunt have given me deer liver because they didn’t want it, and OMG it’s wonderful. If you like liver that is.

          2. I am the same way. I might actually be dumb enough to not have the heart to kill it and stand there and let it eat me. I fully realize that is idiotic but I am not sure I would have the heart to pull the trigger even if it charged me. That is why I would never go lion or cougar hunting.

            I could never hunt for predatory animals, but i’ll sure as hell shoot them if they hang out near my yard. The coyotes know exactly where sit between the fence lines to piss all the neighbors’ dogs off. They’re just sitting there, waiting for something smaller to come along for a snack. They have no fear of humans. One stared me down until I threw a brick at the damned thing.

    2. Once upon a million years ago I lived to hunt. I wanted to hunt big cats and bears because it seemed more sporting to go after something that would hunt you back.

      I got a chance to hunt a big cat. It hunted me back. I have never wanted to do that again.

      1. Frank: I was hunted once. I just came back from ‘Nam. I was hitching through Oregon, and some cop started harassing me. Next thing you know, I had a whole army of cops chasing me through the woods! I had to take ’em all out. It was a bloodbath.

        Charlie: That’s Rambo, dude.

        Frank: What?

        Charlie: You just described the plot of Rambo.

        Dennis: This is not the first time you have described your life in the way of John Rambo.

      2. You actually hunted Suthenboy. It is one thing to kill a bird or a deer. At this point whacking a deer is just harvesting a pest. And pigs need to die. I understand the need to keep the big cat and bear populations down out west, but I never had much desire to kill an animal that is that magnificent.

        1. True, but see my comment above. That seems like it is becoming a thing of the past.

          Yes, when I hunted the cougar I was young and sharp and it was just me and my winchester. No guides.

          Ever notice how large a cougar’s feet are? Did you know that those fuckers can walk through leaves as dry as cornflakes and Not. Make. The. Slightest. Sound.
          It is surreal.

          1. Ever notice how large a cougar’s feet are?

            Like a doll’s feet. Wait..

          2. They’ll stalk you for days, too. They get my vote for most bad ass ninja animal.

        2. And pigs need to die.

          Swine, cops, or both?

          1. *Watches the mailman pick up a subpoena*

    3. For the cheap seats, I don’t want it to be illegal, but I’m fine with everyone thinking you are an asshole for doing it.

      Well said.

    4. Trophy hunting carnivores doesn’t make any sense or hold any appeal for me.

      Well, bears are quite tasty. I’ve never heard anything about lions or cougars, but I’ve shot bears, coyotes, and bobcats. The latter two mostly as pest control on cattle ranches. I’d shoot a mountain lion for the same reason.

      I doubt I’d go trophy hunting for a mountain lion these days, but there was a time when I would have.

      This lion was not shot in a fenced enclosure, so the crying about going into a pen and shooting it doesn’t apply. He was baited, I gather, and the ethics of baiting game can be debated (I don’t have a problem with it, myself).

      1. I’ve seen canned bear meat in Finland. They love it up there.

  17. I feel very othered by the alt-text.

  18. “Full disclosure: I’m on the record being bummed about narrowly missing the chance to eat South African lion meat. I later got the the chance to do so. It wasn’t very good. ”

    KMW, unless you are in desperate circumstances, never eat a mammalian predator. Your chances of being exposed to some very nasty diseases is pretty high. Some pretty evil pathogens and parasites make their way to the top of the food chain and accumulate there.

    If you must do it be certain to cook it black and crispy.

    1. What if I feed my cat only vegan pet food? Will it be safe to serve him medium-rare?

    2. Even/especially long pork, if you’re ever in dire straits.

      If you thought tuna had a lot of mercury, just think about how much an octogenarian must have.

    3. never eat a mammalian predator.

      If you have never eaten bear, you are missing out.

  19. Hold on… let me get this straight = a guy paid $350,000….

    …to “follow a rhino until it collapsed and died of old age”?

    1. lolno. He then found another rhino on the verge of collapse and shot it.

      1. In some regards he got two for one. He can say he stalked the first one to death.

    2. Well, that was just a precaution to avoid alterting history. It’s the fucking butterfly he stepped on that we should be pissed about.

      1. Ray Bradbury story. I remember it.

        1. or was it PK Dick? I seem to remember that being a bradbury joint.

  20. A family friend goes around the world hunting rare animals and decorating his house with their corpses. A lovely set of large elephant tusks greets you in the foyer. In every corner of the house, save the wife’s areas, there’s a corpse. From one of his more recent outings I was told he brought home a dead polar bear.

    Now, everyone has hobbies. Lots of us have obsessions. This is, psychologically, simply his version of collecting those little 50-state spoons. When you really enjoy something like that, you look for excuses not to declare your collection complete, and there are a lot of species out there. One wonders, though, how difficult it would be just to retrain his brain to signal the same reward sensations by playing video games like a normal person.

    1. I seriously doubt he has elephant tusks. Is he an 85 year old British lord?

      1. Tony being a product of some horrible throwback to early 20th century WASP socialites may explain a lot.

      2. True story, and no, a chiropractor.

      3. Every other word out of fuckface’s mouth is a lie. And a preposterous one at that.

      4. Lisa: Dad, I think he’s an ivory dealer! His boots are ivory, his hat is ivory, and I’m pretty sure that check is ivory.

        Homer: Lisa, a guy who’s got lots of ivory is less likely to hurt Stampy than a guy whose ivory supplies are low.

        1. The Simpsons: teaching sound economics for more than a generation.

      5. What happens to the tusks of elephants that are legally hunted? You wouldn’t be able to sell them, but I would think you could take them home.

        1. Looks like you can still import sport-hunting trophies.

          http://www.fws.gov/internation…..swers.html

    2. So Tony, let me guess! You think watching porn is just as fun as banging a guy, right?

    3. Why can’t you be normal and not suck dick like the other 98% of men?

      Why can’t you just use the bathroom assigned to your assigned sex from birth like the vast majority of other people?

      Why can’t you just accept that the Bible is the truth like the majority of normal people?

      Why do want to listen to the loud rock music, listen to normal music like normal people.

      You’re the fucking poster child of the oppressed not wanting oppression to end but simply wanting to change places with their oppressor.

    1. Awww, kitty’s playing with the string!

  21. The only comment on the “lion thing” that makes the slightest bit of fucking sense was the following from an Aussie =

    A 10-year old girl killed 16 people in a suicide bombing in the northeastern Nigeria city of Damaturu on Sunday

    The girl detonated her explosives next to a crowded market as shoppers were being screened by security services. According to the BBC, around 50 people were injured.

    No lions were harmed.”

    1. thank goodness!

    2. I don’t care about either story. What does that make me?

      1. #Africanlivesdontmatter?

      2. A Randian at the right website?

    3. Its the religion of peace. What a fucking death cult. Even the Nazis didn’t do this kind of shit.

      1. The Christian death cults were always more organized.

      2. Worth noting that Hitler and the nazis are highly regarded in much of the muslim world.

        1. Well, anybody who piles up that many dead Jews is going to have a lot of Muslim fans.

        2. Former SS actually trained PLO

    4. Ban 10 year old girls.

  22. All these posts, and nobody has made a #BlackRhinosMatter joke?

    You got to step up your game, people.

  23. I know this makes me a awful human being but I just do not care…….

    I eat pork, chicken, beef, fish and other forms of animal everyday. Animals die so I can have a full tummy. Boo-hoo.


  24. ‘What lion?’ Zimbabweans ask, amid global Cecil circus

    As social media exploded with outrage this week at the killing of Cecil the lion, the untimely passing of the celebrated predator at the hands of an American dentist went largely unnoticed in the animal’s native Zimbabwe.

    “What lion?” acting information minister Prisca Mupfumira asked …

    “Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country,” said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. “What is so special about this one?”

    As with many countries in Africa, in Zimbabwe big wild animals such as lions, elephants or hippos are seen either as a potential meal, or a threat to people and property that needs to be controlled or killed.

    The world of Palmer, who paid $50,000 to kill 13-year-old Cecil, is a very different one from that inhabited by millions of rural Africans who are more than occasionally victims of wild animal attacks.

    “Why are the Americans more concerned than us?” said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. “We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange.”

    1. Yes, but this lion had a name, which pretty much makes him a person.

  25. Well, it’s fitting that I’m seeing an ad here for Cabella’s biggest archery sale of the season.

  26. Humans have a right… not to have rare species get hunted to extinction

    This makes absolutely no sense philosophically. It’s like saying that humans have a right to not have things they dislike happen. Like having to look at ugly buildings or have tornados pass by.
    Or, to be even more accurate, it’s like saying that humans have a right to not have other humans having gay sex.

    Because obviously the presumption is that hunting rare species is being done by other humans, and it’s just a value judgement whether gay sex or extinction is a bad thing or not.
    Ergo, if you think humans have a right to stop from doing , then you can pretty much declare that everyone has a right to stop other people from doing any other act that they consider immoral. The only way around this is to declare that YOUR value judgements are objectively right, and everyone else value judgements are objectively wrong. Which is basically equivalent to claiming that nobody has the right to do anything you find immoral. And so all this amounts to is “i’m right and your wrong, and I should be able make you do whatever I want, so there”

    1. Correction: Ergo, if you think humans have a right to stop other people from doing subjectively immoral activity X, then …

    2. “The only way around this is to declare that YOUR value judgements are objectively right, and everyone else value judgements are objectively wrong.”

      Sounds a lot like the “white privilege” arguments made by progs. (Most arguments made by them, actually.) I don’t think that’s coincidence.

  27. Is there anything stopping people from buying up the permits so that these creatures won’t be killed (or at least driving up the price?).

    With respect to Cecil in particular, it sounds like he was lured away killed “out of bounds”. If so, I find that hard to defend.

    I eat meat, including deer and other wild game/fish…these have arguably had a better life than most creatures raised for human consumption. Meat eaters that object to humane hunting practices as barbaric frustrate me. Many won’t do (and sometimes look down upon) those who literally do their dirty work for them.

    1. Because those outraged don’t really give a fuck about lions or animals in particular. They do nothing but want the ability to say, “Hey I feel like looking at a lion, oh there’s one over there, ok we’re done, back to Starbucks!”

      It’s always someone else’s job and when the person does what they think is best, people that disagree get all pissy and throw a tantrum like a fucking child.

      It’s along the lines of how Progs demand everyone pay higher taxes but when Massachusetts gave the option to voluntarily pay higher taxes, they got zero takers.

      It’s always someone else’s responsibility.

  28. A few years back in my tiny N. California town, there was a mountain lion who was seen killing our dog. Fish and game came to me and issued a permit to kill. Next day, a friend found the dog remains with the cat guarding over it. I brought the dog home, cried a lot, and then got a strange vibe that the cat would come back for the carcass. I hiked a 1/4 mile behind my house and just past the area where my dog was laying, I spotted the cougar 100 yds. up the hill. I put the crosshairs of my .270 right behind the shoulder and nailed it. It was getting dark and starting to snow so I went home and called fish&game; and they came out the next morning and found the cat 50′ from where I popped it. The afternoon before the cat got my dog, my two young boys were playing in the woods behind the house. 90 lb. female in the later stages of her life. I would never hunt down a puma in the wild but I had no problem dropping this one. I am still puzzled that the emotionals here in CA have not crucified me but I guess if it’s “legal” then it ok.

    1. A .270 on a mountain lion? Obviously enough gun, given your results, but I would have gone heavier.

      “There’s no such thing as too much gun.”

      1. A coworker of mine uses a .270 to hunt moose. It’s a small projectile, but it’s fast. Remember that velocity is squared in the formula for kinetic energy. So small and fast can potentially deliver more energy than big and not-as-fast, being that that higher velocity is squared.

        1. But it’s cubed in drag. 🙂 So for the same total energy you’re usually better off going for more mass. That’s the same reason airplanes have gone to high bypass turbofans.

  29. I hate outrage porn and slacktivist internet anger that affects peoples’ jobs and lives. But I can’t bring myself to get angry about the human custodial impulse towards lesser creatures. It’s a good part of human nature.

    Conversely, I reserve the right not to give half a stale shit about any person on Earth. Enough with the “people don’t care about x, y, and z, but they care about this” whining. High-minded empathy feeds nobody. It just feeds ego.

    Conservation hunting is important. But I view this dentist–in this instance–as a poacher, and I believe he knew that what he was doing hunting this lion was not entirely on the level. I just think he thought nobody would care.

    But the necessity of shuttering his business is fucked up. I hope that $50K he spent is actually going towards conservation.

  30. Your on the record that you were upset you missed the chance to eat lion meat? Why? Just so you think you would impress people you had it?

    That’s right, it is the reason. You said this in the article you cite:

    “A keystroke on my Mac sends a man out to drag a crocodile from its watery wallow, conk it on the head, and send me a filet from its tail, just so that I can have a novel dinner.”

    Your a glutinous ass, Katherine.

    1. Jackass is calling someone an ass. How cute.

      1. Speaking of asses, sarc is in the house!

        1. I’m an asshole, not an ass. Get it right. Ass.

          1. My mistake. Enjoy your weekend! Stay away from lion meat!

          2. Hey sarc, you and I might both be assea, but Katherone is a glutinous ass. She’s worse.

            1. Nah. She’s grrrrrrrrr-eat!

              1. Where’s tony?

                1. In my belly!

                  Seriously though, I might try lion meat it if was offered to me, though it’s not something I’d seek out. I’ll try most any food once. I’m starting to build a collection of firearms, and next on my list is a rifle for hunting deer. Just so I can eat the liver. It’s soooooo good. My bucket list includes trying rattlesnake and alligator. Recently I was introduced to some cheese that smells like a dumpster, but tastes sublime. Brillat Savarin it’s called. Yum. So I won’t knock someone for trying something exotic. Good for them. But you, however, for calling someone names for what they choose to eat, are an ass. Big-a, double-s, Ass.

                  1. On this page and from you, my friend? A true badge of honor! Still, have a great weekend!

                    1. We’re not friends.

                    2. Have a great weekend!

  31. The problem with trophy hunters is that they are working directly opposite to nature’s way. In nature, the weakest, sickest, and least able to survive are the animals that die, leaving the strongest and best to pass on their genes. You won’t find any trophy hunters looking for the runt of the litter, though. They want the biggest, strongest and best animals to kill and hang on their walls. Removing those from the gene pool only hurts the species.

    1. But Lisa , Katherine wants a “novel” meal.

    2. Except you’re wrong and when trophy hunting for conservation purposes, it is the old and unable to breed that are targeted.

      Many times, when an animal is at their peak as far as trophies go (tusks, antlers, horns, etc.) they are old and herd managers want a younger and physically stronger male to start breeding the females.

      This is big practice on trophy deer hunting ranches here in the U.S.

      But keep talking about shit you don’t know. That opinion of yours felt right though, didn’t it dumb fuck.

  32. I love to hunt, it is my great passion. I hunt for meat and contrary to Tony’s and every other scum of the Earth Prog, it is not because I doubt my manhood. All those years with my father, the subject of manhood never once came up.

    The end goal and only goal really, is meat. I however am quite fond of everything about the hunt. The preseason scouting, the cold weather, forming strategy off time of day and weather patterns, knowing where the herd and flock is based upon time of year and food available to them. I love every bit of that.

    I don’t do the trophy hunting and I personally wouldn’t hunt a lion because I would not eat a lion. I don’t do fenced property, baiting, scents, etc. I do use decoys for ducks, obviously. I scout my quarry and use their food sources for my bait (Oak flats for deer, millet, duckweed, etc. for ducks, oak for squirrels, fields for rabbits).

    Please, please, please don’t fuck up this up for me. If you live in the suburbs or city and don’t know dick about hunting, don’t weigh in your opinion. Just simply do nothing and let people like me have our passions and our ways. We have been very successful in our conservation efforts here in the U.S. so there is no danger here. To the Tony’s of the world, our biggest threat is urban development. Think about that when you want everyone to be just like you and do your stupid urban life shit.

    1. Katherine is trying to desparstely f this up for you, because she yearns for “novel” meals. Think about that, they are her words, “novel.”

      What could possibly be more novel than the last male and female of a species? For her, it’s what’s for dinner!

      She is a pig.

      1. Novelty is just based upon one’s experience with something. 90% of people probably think squirrel, rabbit, wild duck, deer, wild pig, quail, etc. are novelties. To me though they are as common as cow from Wal-Mart. I have a freezer full of fresh fish and wild game, that I harvested myself from my local area. It’s healthy and better tasting than anything from the store.

        1. I don’t have any problem with hunting. I have a problem with killing for novelties sake.

          1. I agree, if you kill something, then you should eat it. To me there is no debate, killing for food is nether moral or immoral. It is an amoral act and one that is the reality of the world.

            Slaughtering the buffalo so some rich bitch in London can have a nice coat though is wrong.

    2. I’m wrong, pigs are better than her.

      1. If the animal is already dead, why not eat it if someone offers you the meat? She didn’t kill it, she didn’t advocate for its killing, she simply ate something that someone offered her.

        1. Read her quote again

          “A keystroke on my Mac sends a man out to drag a crocodile from its watery wallow, conk it on the head, and send me a filet from its tail, just so that I can have a novel dinner. ”

          She is condemning that animal for its novelty. Her words.

        2. I have friendsike you. No problem. Katherine is a glutinous pig.

        3. Don’t bother, rooster, it’s jackass…..it;s a troll.

  33. It’s always a treat to get another fine KM-W post. It’s a shame her managing editor position and other responsibilities keep her from contributing more excellent content.

  34. I have no interest in hunting, but my impression is that hunters are probably better conservationists than NGOs and non-profits.

  35. The real tragedy revealed by cecil’s death is the trainwreck that is Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is a kleptocracy without strong protections for property rights. So we end up with a tragedy of the commons situation where desperate people extract whatever value they can before the next guy starting with the most valuable commodities. Look at how many lions are being taken every year in Zimbabwe. The number is nowhere close to sustainable because it’s a free for all. Once the population is reduced on unowned land, they had to lure animals out of the national parks. The animals are still in the national parks, because the only property that is protected is government property.

    I was in the same camp as many of the people here where I blamed the guides and not a perhaps duped hunter. But can you blame desperate people for taking a deer from the kings forest?

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  37. This article needs better editing! Look at the number of problems with it!

  38. For her next article, Katherine Mangu-Ward should write about how kidnapping children and selling them as prostitutes is a good thing if “done right” and if a sufficient portion of the customer’s money is donated to children’s charities. It’s all about utilitarian ethics. If the math works, it must be good.

    1. Well said. You expressed it better than I could….and yes, of course. It’s amazing how many people conveniently miss this point.

  39. So you say it’s ok to kill a lion in violation of the laws of another country violating the US federal Lacey Act in the process. When does it become not ok to kill a lion? When it’s the last one? Too late.

  40. “For starters, the money will go to fight poaching.”

    Wow…you sure are gullible and believe everything you hear. You state this as a fact, even though it is something that may or may not occur in the future. And sounds like the gov’t officials of some African country are the ones claiming.

    Maybe some of it will go to fight poaching, but most likely some of it will find its way to line the pockets of some gov’t officials and who knows what else. Regardless, you blanked “factual” statement of a future event is poor journalism and also just doesn’t make logical sense.

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