Libya

ISIS Video Shows Beheading of 21 Egyptian Christians in Libya

The wages of interventionism is death.

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YouTube

The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) released another video today, this time showing the beheading of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians by ISIS militants in Libya, "a message signed with blood to the nation of the cross." The Christian Science Monitor reports:

The text and video were targeted at terrorizing a Western audience as much as Arab speakers, with captions in both Arabic and English and a masked speaker who issued his threats in fluent English. The style of the video is very much like the last IS snuff movie, involving the burning to death of Jordanian pilot Muath al-Kassasbeh in a cage in Syria.

Like the murder of Lt. Kassasbeh, this was a high definition video exhibiting significant post-production editing, including jump cuts and other editing techniques stolen from Hollywood slasher flicks. This mass murder was if anything, more horrific. Unlike Kassasbeh, a Jordanian pilot whose F-16 crashed in Syria, the victims this time weren't fighting the group. They were simply Egyptian Coptic Christians trying to make a living in Libya, kidnapped in early January and eventually murdered due to their faith alone.

Libya has become a battleground for a large number of extremist groups ever since the end of the 2011 civil war, which saw the U.S. and its NATO allies intervene on the side of the rebels. After a group of rebels captured, sodomized, and killed Col. Muammar Qaddafi, the long-time dictator of Libya, with the aid of U.S. air support, President Obama and his administration declared U.S. involvement in Libya a foreign policy success. "We came, we saw, we died," then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton quipped. Last summer, the situation in Libya had become so violent the U.N. mission evacuated from the country.

ISIS advanced in Libya began late last year, and today's video makes the extent of their foothold in the country, and the heavy costs of regime change, with ground troops and an extended combat mission or not, much clearer. Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi warns his country will retaliate against the killings. Egypt and the United Arab Emirates began air-strikes in Libya last August in an effort to contain some of the Islamist militants operating in the country but those strikes have had a limited effect.

Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul, a likely Republican presidential candidate, has been taking Clinton, a likely Democratic presidential candidate, to task over her role in the U.S. intervention in Libya for months. It could open up an important political debate on interventionism and its consequences, despite efforts by Clinton apologists and Libya denialists to boil down criticism of the disastrous U.S. interventionist policies in Libya to a political squabble over Benghazi.

NEXT: Reactions to the Obama administration's proposed ISIS AUMF

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  1. Last summer, the situation in Libya had become so violent the U.N. mission evacuated from the country.

    Like Condi Rice said about Iraq – “thems just some birth pangs of democracy”.

    1. “birth pangs of a new Middle East”

      http://www.informationclearing…..e14146.htm

    2. Yeah, turd, and Shrillary said ‘I’m sleepy!’

      1. You couldn’t slip much past Condi. She took Russian in college you know.

        Well that 9/11 thing got by her. But you know – she was just National Security Adviser.

        1. Palin’s Buttplug|2.15.15 @ 8:03PM|#
          Whatever, turd.

        2. What’s stunning is that you appear to believe you are more intelligent than she is.

          You may disagree with her politics or dislike her performance, but she is in rarefied air intellectually compared to most of the rest of us mortals, and most definitely compared to you.

          1. My dogs tower intellectually over the shrieking imbecile so that really isn’t saying much.

            What amazes me is how someone who claims to be a classical liberal can’t stop sucking statist cock. Criticize the neocons all you want, but don’t turn around and felate Democrat neocons just because they are Dems. Bush being a neocon does not make Shillary or Obama the opposite thing.

        3. You’re still here? Isn’t there a bottle of pills or a razor blade waiting for you? Best thing for you, really. Your witless reparte is going nowhere.

    3. Glad to see that you continue to expose your racist tendencies by pretending that Rice speaks like uneducated sharecropper.

      1. Well, she plays for wrong Team, so it’s okay for him to do that.

      2. I’m a white Southern male. According to the Peanuts here I can’t be a racist.

        1. EVERY white is racist! Haven’t you learned that by now, PB? Just keep your mouth shut and accept your punishment, WHITE PRIVILEGE!

          1. I guess that is true. Maybe that is why not many black lesbians post here.

            1. Do black lesbians post anywhere outside of their bubble?

              1. I am a black lesbian trapped inside the body of a white male.

      3. He’s a known racist and homophobe.

    4. Like Condi Rice said about Iraq – “thems just some birth pangs of democracy”.

      Wait, this is Libya… so this is the Democracy that Obama Midwifed…

    5. except Condi has nothing to do with Libya you lying sack of shit. That was Team Obama.

      1. Condi was the apologist for the whole “forcing them into democracy by killing most of them” Bush Doctrine, asswipe.

        1. hey dick head,
          Condi was back at Stanford when Obama made a decision re: Libya after waiting for the rest of the NATO nations to tell him what to do. Try and keep up.

          1. We’re part of NATO, you idiot. NATO are the good guys.

            1. You know who else is part of NATO?

              1. Belgium!

                *tosses quarter into swear jar*

                1. +1 Monty Python reference

                  1. Call them what you will, the Sprouts, the Phlegms, the Miserable Fat Belgian Bastards

            2. such good guys that Libya is a raging success story. Oh, wait. Maybe if NATO included some Repubs, Obama could have found reason to not go along.

            3. See, when a person Buttplug hates, like Bush, bombs people, it’s an extreme evil. When some Buttplug sees as a ‘good guy’ bombs people, it’s completely acceptable or, if something bad happens, it’s the fault of people Buttplug doesn’t like who had nothing to do with it.

              It’s easy to understand Buttplug’s viewpoint when you have no rational morality and determine everything by his emotional response.

              1. No. You don’t get it.

                I would have had no problem with Bush “bombing” Saddam Hussein at all like I had no issue with Obama aiding the killing of Qadaffi.

                My issue with Bush was the $1-2 trillion and 50,000 US lives he ruined!!! MY TAXES and other lives…

                Obama spent next to nothing to support NATO in their mission.

                1. And you constantly attempt to rationalize Obama’s own spending problems and interventions. Suddenly “MY TAXES and other lives” don’t matter and you act like a complete sycophant. Classic emotional rationalization over rational morality. I get it far better than you do.

                  Oh look, there’s twenty-one examples of the thousands of people who’s lives have been ruined. Those people killed by NATO and American airstrikes? Those killed from the resultant instability of Libya? Oh those don’t count as ‘other lives’ in Buttplug’s fantasy land. Funny how ‘other lives’ don’t matter if it’s not Bush.

                  1. Obama’s spending problems?

                    Spending keeps decreasing as a % of GDP under Obama while remaining flat in real numbers.

                    You must read wingnut.com for your stats – look at Reason (it backs me up).

                    1. Palin’s Buttplug|2.15.15 @ 10:04PM|#
                      “Obama’s spending problems?”

                      Yes, turd, your fantasies can be ignored.

                    2. Shorter Buttplug: The Lord God Obama is truly the savior of us all! Those trillions of dollars of debt simply don’t exist to the true believer!

                      Please, if Obama managed to pass his 4 trillion dollar budget you’d still be here, sucking his cock and proclaiming his financial responsibility. Your word is shit because you’re a fanatic.

                      Get lost, fundie.

                    3. “Spending keeps decreasing as a % of GDP under Obama while remaining flat in real numbers.”

                      Discretionary spending went down a bit thanks to Sequestration caps and pressure from public and GOP.

                      CBO and every reputable news source in existence is projecting the deficit to shoot up again, as soon as 2018, because Obama and the GOP didn’t do a thing about entitlement spending.

                      And the ACA is only 3,4 years old? Some bigger states are already feeling pinch from medicaid expansion.

                    4. Umm, decreasing as a percent of GDP when measured against a base line that includes the near trillion dollar bump for the great stimulus bill that save all his cronies?

                2. Ah, typical statist, can’t see the consequences of any action he espouses.

                  Tell me, O wise one, how does one bomb people without getting them worked up?

                3. 0bama spent more in a single day than was spent in 10 years in Iraq. The stimulus bill disappeared nearly a trillion to his cronies. Not part of your accounting, eh?

                4. Oh, so it’s okay to bomb and ruin lives if it’s on the cheap. Didn’t realize you got along with the neocons.

                5. Then there are the tens of millions of American lives obama has already destroyed by being president. With his policies.

                6. Wow, full-retard there.

            4. We’re part of NATO, you idiot. NATO are the good guys.

              Interesting. Since NATO ‘are the good guys’ they can apparently do whatever they want, and no matter how terrible the consequences, it’s okay because they’re the good guys!

              NATO is like God – omniscient and unquestionably righteous.

              1. NATO is like God – omniscient and unquestionably righteous.

                Because that’s how Buttplug constructs the reality he wants to live in. He whines about religion but then constructs his own little Gods and Devils to fulfill their roles. Then it’s rationalize everything the ‘good guys’ said while demonizing the ‘bad guys’ for everything, even things they aren’t responsibly for (or that the ‘good guys’ are). It’s sad, he’s got mind of a religious fanatic and zero self awareness.

              2. NATO is like God – omniscient and unquestionably righteous.

                That’s because it has some Europeans in it.

    6. monkey see, monkey do

    7. I’ve made $64,000 so far this year working online and I’m a full time student. I’m using an online business opportunity I heard about and I’ve made such great money. It’s really user friendly and I’m just so happy that I found out about it. Heres what I’ve been doing,
      …. http://www.wixjob.com

  2. Yep, they are truly nasty people and I wish the Egyptians well.

  3. How can you run an article like this without even mentioning the Spanish Inquistion?

    /Sarc (Sad that even needs be said)

    1. I wasn’t expecting the Spanish inquisition!

      1. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

        1. Did someone call for a comfy chair?

          *glares menacingly around*

          1. You know who wrote the book on comfy chairs?

          2. Perhaps some soft pillows.

    2. Or Chicago. As the Devil Uno taught me, you can’t talk about the attacks on European free speech because more people die in Chicago than in terrorist attacks in Copenhagen.

      1. Self-flagellation is the hallmark of intelligence, especially when you do it for absurd reasons.

      2. They might have a point if you specifically died in Chicago, but your trans-human consciousness persisted as a blog commentator. In which case, you couldn’t talk about attacks on European free speech because you died in Chicago, even though your memories live on in some server somewhere.

      3. Two street gangs. One, the Crips. The other, the Latin Kings.

        Over a six month period, the Crips kill 20 people, mostly rival gang members in corner drug beefs.

        Over that same six month period, a gang called The Latin Kings kills only 7 people, but all 7 were killed in random shootings where members of the Latin Kings stormed shopping malls and grocery stores, fired into the crowds while yelling “Viva Latin Kings!”

        Which one makes bigger headlines and why?

        1. Sarah Palin rambling on at CPAC!

          What do I win?

          1. A printer registration mark?

        2. the Kings because sane people understand bangers banging. They don’t get thugs killing people at random.

        3. Over that same six month period, a gang called The Latin Kings kills only 7 people, but all 7 were killed in random shootings where members of the Latin Kings stormed shopping malls and grocery stores, fired into the crowds while yelling “Viva Latin Kings!”

          Which one makes bigger headlines and why?

          I don’t think it’s crazy to toss aside the utilitarian calculus and assert that the 7 arbitrary murders are worse than the 20 murders of “combatants”, or otherwise ‘participants’ in that industry who are voluntarily exposing themselves to the rules of that game.

        4. Neither, it’s the gang in blue snuffing babies in their cribs.

    3. Is it safe to assume this action was in response to a youtube video?

      1. Not until obama does/does not do something to fuck it up worse.

  4. Look up in the sky…it’s a bird, it’s a plane, it’s BOOOOOSSSSHHH.

  5. Look up in the sky…it’s a bird, it’s a plane, it’s BOOOOOSSSSHHH.

  6. F%$king Skwerlz.

  7. F%$king Skwerlz.

    1. No one expects the Spanish Skwerlz.

      1. Today’s topic: deja vu.

  8. As a non-interventionist this the best we can hope for from Obama.

  9. How about “ISIS is not anyone in America’s fault?”

    Yes I know most Americans cannot really conceive that the USA is not in fact the prime mover behind, well, everything. The Daesh Islamic State took root in Syria (not a place the USA had a lot of influence to put it mildly) and the the USA was a bit-part player in the internal explosion that ended up with Qaddafi meeting his long deserved fate, with the *vast* majority of the heavy lifting being done by Libyans.

    Sorry I know this does not fit the narrative.

    1. It fits with reality. To hell with the narrative.

    2. Or how about, “now is a good time to provide asylum to persecuted religious minorities” there are probably lots of Christians, Druze, and minority Muslims that would like to leave the middle east about now.

    3. It’s not like I don’t know what you’re not saying, it’s just that it’s not exactly unclear.

    4. You mean to tell me that America is not simultaneously Atlas, wearily bracing the heavens upon his shoulders, and the Colossus, astride his unbounded domain?

    5. the USA was a bit-part player in the internal explosion that ended up with Qaddafi meeting his long deserved fate

      Not quite. Air support was critical in abetting the revolution. We were not prime movers, but certainly critical to ‘success’.

    6. Don’t forget the whole funneling weapons to support a Syrian uprising. Weapons that found their way into the hands of ISIS.

  10. The wages of interventionism is death.

    So perhaps Gaddafi should have avoided war with Chad, Egypt blowing up aircraft and creating the Islamic Legion?

  11. I guess this isn’t charitable, but I find myself thinking ISIS can’t be killed *enough.*

  12. Does Ed still think it is a good idea for Egypt to intervene in Libya?

  13. Hard to concentrate with all this shrieking. It’s 8% louder than it should be.

    With that said, three words:

    Religion. Of. PEACE.

    But, yeah, “right-wing Christians” in the US are TEH SKARY!

    1. Hey now, don’t judge a religion by the actions of many of its adherents. No correlation there.

    2. there you go, on your high horse again. Because Crusades. And Jim Crow.

      Good lord that fucker in the Oval is the most embarrassing thing.

      1. That once-and-future-fucker-in-the-white-house Clinton said even more embarrassing things about the Crusades vis-a-vis Muslim Victims, a long quote of his comments being in The Politicallly Incorrect Guide to Islam the Audible version of which I happened to be listening to last night.

    3. We grade on a scale, dipshit. Of course the violence-loving Islamo-terrorists in the Middle East are by far the worst in real terms.

      That doesn’t excuse a US Christo-Nut when they force US children into the child abuse of Xtian indoctrination in schools or in the church.

      1. I’m having a hard time seeing the difference between a homeschooler and the beheading of a Coptic Christian.

        1. So is the Coptic Christian.

          1. Well that goes without saying. I’m sure those Coptics did something to inflame the passions of ISIS. Maybe ISIS found their Sketchbooks and didn’t like what they found inside.

            1. Just acting out due to the generational trauma of the genocides committed against their ancestors by the evil white Crusaders.

              Or something.

              1. Just acting out due to the generational trauma of the genocides committed against their ancestors by the evil white Crusaders.

                Admit it: you pulled that right from Sheldon’s brain, didn’t you?

                1. Admit it: you pulled that right from Sheldon’s brain, didn’t you?

                  I admit nothing.

              2. MEDIEVAL INTERVENSHUN BLOWBACK!?

            2. In Brad Pitt voice, What’s in the sketchbook! What’s in the sketchbook!

        2. I’m having a hard time seeing the difference between a homeschooler and the beheading of a Coptic Christian.

          The latter is by far the worst of the two!

          1. Then why make the comparison in the first place?

      2. false equivalencies for $600, Alex.

        Let’s see: when one christo nut does what you describe, the rest say it is horrible and the offender deserves punishment. When one Islamist does what is in this story, poll after poll shows most Muslims approving the action.

        See if you can spot the difference.

        1. You missed this part:

          Islamists are by far the worst.

          Emphasize “by far”.

          1. So when the media reports on the ravages of Leprosy, we have to take time out to talk about how there’s a cold going around, too? For equal time or something?

          2. the worst by so far that your comparison is nonsensical. And no one here has excused bad actors from other religions anyway. But those bad actors tend to be outliers, Barry.

            1. The “bad actors” among Muslims are outliers too.

              100,000 jihadist/terrorists among 1.5 billion Muslims? Vs a few thousand violent Xtians.

              I stand with “by far”.

              1. and yet, poll after poll shows massive support of those outliers’ actions. No such findings among those crazy christians.

              2. You might have a legitimate point if polls in Muslim countries didn’t prove that huge majorities approve of these actions.

        2. Most Muslims support ISIS beheading people? I’d love to see that poll.

          1. Most Muslims support ISIS beheading people? I’d love to see that poll.

            Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
            86% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
            30% of Indonesian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
            76% of Pakistanis support death the penalty for leaving Islam
            51% of Nigerian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
            http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/0…..hezbollah/

            There ya go

            1. I’m well aware of those polls. And they have absolutely nothing to do with my question. First off, they’re specifically referring to people leaving Islam. While nonetheless barbaric, that tells us nothing about what the approval rate would be for killing Coptic Christians who were not born Muslims. Secondly, most of the worlds Muslim population doesn’t live in those countries (and support is lowest, and minority, in the largest Muslim country, Indonesia), and thirdly, they are not with regards to ISIS. So all in all, that does not support wareagle’s assertion.

              1. Because it’s logical to look at these poll numbers and conclude that it’s only those that leave Islam that Muslims think deserve the death penalty.

                1. It really is a largely bloodthirsty religion.

              2. I’m well aware of those polls. And they have absolutely nothing to do with my question.

                It’s got everything to do with it. Extremist positions on violence and Islam are not a tiny fraction of the population. There are polls discussing the popularity of ISIS and similar groups, and they get a whole lot of support. Your assertion that no significant number could possibly support ISIS’s actions falls flat on it’s face.

                80% of young Dutch Muslims see nothing wrong with Holy War against non-believers. Most verbalized support for pro-Islamic State fighters.
                http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/a…..earch.php/

                1. Islam is the greatest threat to humanity to ever exist. Marxism is number two. We are all better served if their numbers were greatly reduced.

              3. no one is born Muslim

      3. That doesn’t excuse a US Christo-Nut progressive when they force US children into the child abuse of Xtian progressive indoctrination in schools or in the church indoctrination camps.

        1. I’m sorry new math and science piss you off so much. That is the only “progressive” education I am aware of.

          I went to a public school and my US history class ended with WWII. My perspective of US Progressives was scant but negative.

          UGA was different. I chose that school though.

          1. I only see him on my phone, but that last line explains everything. THWG

          2. Palin’s Buttplug|2.15.15 @ 8:44PM|#
            “I’m sorry new math and science piss you off so much. That is the only “progressive” education I am aware of.”

            That’s because you’re an ignoramus, turd.

            1. For the love of Bog why do you all insist on giving it attention. The wound will never heal if you keep picking at it.

              1. I am the only true Buttplug! Ye shall have no other buttplugs before me!

              2. Dances-with-Trolls|2.15.15 @ 9:25PM|#
                “For the love of Bog why do you all insist on giving it attention.”

                You’ll notice I never engage turd. I laugh, insult and point out obvious lies.
                Turd can turn apoplectic, as turd does, and not get engagement.
                You’ll notice turd infestations are down recently.

          3. ‘ New math and science’………those things don’t actually change you fucking shitbird. And is say this as someone who is proficient in calculus.

            You and your friends truly belong face down in landfills.

      4. The cokehead who constantly constructs his own fantasy world through selectively sourcing things or being just plain ignorant in order to fit his biases and emotional responses is accusing others of indoctrination. You’re quite amusing.

      5. We grade on a scale, dipshit.

        You’ve clearly been graded on a curve your whole life, dummy.

      6. Your hatred of Christianity and any form of goodness is long since known. Your adherence to your evil marxist masters is hereby acknowledged.

  14. Obama backs the Plucky Libyan Rebels…who turn terrorist.

    Obama backs the Plucky Syrian Rebels…who turn terrorist.

    A less reasonable man might draw a theme from this recurring event.

    1. And turd says “BOOOOOSH!”

        1. Well, to be fair, we still have not completely recovered from the Wilson administration…

          1. But, but… TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFT!

        2. I don’t know about 100 years, but it will take quite a while to overcome the fuck-ups of the Bush years.

          1. it will take quite a while to overcome the fuck-ups of the Bush years.

            WTF? Obama closed Gitmo, got out of Iraq, got out of Afghan, fixed the economy, halved the debt, and personally killed Osama. It’s only taken 6 years.

            Oh wait…

    2. Socrates was a terrorist.
      Terrorists are evil.
      Therefore Socrates was advocating peace.

      1. But Socrates was a terrorist. A dirty, Spartan-loving terrorist.

  15. “The wages of interventionism is death.”

    Because ISIS was totally going to leave those Coptic Christians alone otherwise

    is it really ‘interventionism’ when the same groups that repeatedly tried to overthrow your own country have reoriented themselves to overthrowing your neighbor instead?

    1. Once they took out Qaddafi and Mubarak, a power vacuum was inevitable.

      If we didn’t intervene AND the dictators held onto power by the skin of their teeth, they would have (1) asked us to help keep them hold onto their power (2) go on a killing spree to wipe out potential oppositions (3) engage in long term civil war which further radicalizes the likes of ISIS.

      The only way non intervention pays off is for someone in that region to wipe out ISIS while respecting human rights .

      1. XM, we had Saddam Hussein pretty well bottled up in Iraq until we invaded. There are more possibilities than you have listed.

        1. We had to resort to sanctions and occasional air strikes to accomplish that, I think. There was no reason for us to help him thwart a coup.

          Hosni Mubarak was an our ally. Just as moderate and secular as Saddam. If we stayed away and he violently crushed his opposition, then we would have been in a awkward position.

        2. How long do you think that might have lasted?

          1. Not sure how long the ‘no-fly zone’ etc could have been effective. But there would be about half a million people who lived longer, including about 4,000 americans.

            Now that Egypt, Jordan, and others are working to oust ISIS I think we should participate. But we should not go with a meager coalition where we do all the heavy lifting.

  16. The whole region is such a horrific incomprehensible clusterfuck.
    I have no clue what would make things better, but I find it hard to believe the bumblers in Washington (all of them- my hatred is strictly bipartisan) can do anything but make things worse.

    1. I have no clue what would make things better
      Actually, I think you do:
      ?Economic freedoms and legal protections for private property ownership.
      ?A free press, and free speech protections
      ?Democratically elected governments with limited powers that aren’t overthrown by the military when they say something dumb
      ?(most important) people who demand the the three above items and nothing less.

      Combine and let it be for a generation or so, and you have a recipe for anti-clusterfuck.

      1. And I agree that Washington can only make things worse.

        1. Meriwether3|2.15.15 @ 9:08PM|#
          “And I agree that Washington can only make things worse.”

          And has a pretty near 100% record of doing so.
          “What should we do?”. Nothing; at least we’re not making it worse like we usually do.
          Obo managed to teach at least a few people this lesson regarding medical insurance. At a cost I don’t even want to consider.

        2. Yes – Washington should take no part in “making” those things happen.

      2. ?

        I just can’t even…

        1. Me neither.

          1. That reminds me, I’ve been wondering if the squirrels tolerate supplementary code points. Let’s see:

            1. Aww, they don’t. Not a surprise. No playing cards or kitties for us.

              1. sad kitten emoticon

      3. So it requires a culture change.

        This process is not complete in Germany even after seventy years (they still have hate speech laws).

      4. Actually, I think that “what would make things better,” to be meaningful, has to include what you do to get to “economic freedom and legal protections for private property ownership,” “a free press, and free speech protections,” etc., in that part of the world. As it stands, the answer smacks of “Assume a ladder.”

      5. And in another 500 years or so, the barbarians that live in that clusterfuck corner of the world may be ready for those things.

    2. “I have no clue what would make things better”

      Neutron bombs?

    3. ^^THIS … squared.

      US military intervention just makes things worse, every single time. Americans like to pretend otherwise.

  17. Or = different question

    If only states can do ‘intervention*’ against other states…

    (*i hate the word for its lack of specificity, and wish they’d just say, “Military Action” if that’s what they mean, and drop the whole “ism” as no one really has a philosophy of ‘attack everybody!’ other than Napoleon)

    …then how it it ‘intervention’ to attack non-state actors who’re trying to undermine Neighbor Nation States that actually *want* you to help get rid of these jihadi douchebags?

    i.e. the ostensible powers that be in Libya are fighting ISIS. Egypt is fighting ISIS. Syria is fighting ISIS. The US is fighting ISIS. Iraq is fighting ISIS. UAE is fighting ISIS. !@#*($& FRANCE is fighting ISIS.

    Who’s intervening who? I mean, even in the context of our cold-war-esque mechanizations to undermine Assad… apparently he’s been giving US planes the green light to bomb the shit out of ISIS on his turf.

    which brings us back to this ‘intervention’ word. Is that what we’re going to call *that* as well?

    Or is some slightly-more-specific-word warranted when you’re talking about cooperatively trying to expunge non-state actors from a conflicts between two otherwise hostile nation-states?

    Is ‘cooperative anti-terrorism’ really being described the same way as unilateral military action to overthrow established governments?

  18. You could just as easily argue that it wasn’t intervening enough.

    Iraq was caused by pulling the troops out. It was relatively stable when Bush left office, thanks to the surge.
    Syria we really didn’t do anything except hand out some weapons
    Libya we didn’t do much, it was most the Europeans bombing
    In Yemen, all we did was some drone strikes.

    Had we actually invaded Syria and Libya and kept troops there, there might have been stable government. At least until the troops left (like Iraq), but we still have troops in Japan and Germany and South Korea.

    But beyond that, look at what happened in Egypt. You had the Muslim Brotherhood come to power due to being voted in (which we supported), then a military coup (which we didn’t).

    Look at Turkey. Edrogan is turning it into another Iran, damn near. He was popularly elected, and Obama just loves him. Yet Turkey is also apparently helping ISIS, since Turks apparently hate the Kurds (since the Turks did kind of steal their land and all).

    (Also funny how Turkey kills a whole bunch of protestors and/or Kurds all the time, yet it barely gets mentioned in the news)

    Look at Nigeria. We haven’t done anything there. Heck, the opposite, apparently we just cancelled a deal selling helicopters to the government. Yet Boko Harum is as murderous as anyone.

    But what’s the common thread? Islam.

    1. “But what’s the common thread? Islam.”

      There’s another:
      None of our business.

      1. we can’t have it both ways. Non-interventionism has yet to take hold and who knows if it ever will. And these folks are not the Soviets; there is no bargaining or reasoning or detente with them.

        I’m not sure that even a President Paul would be totally hands off. The superpower mantle makes it tough to stay out of things, even those we should stay out of.

        1. wareagle|2.15.15 @ 9:03PM|#
          “we can’t have it both ways. Non-interventionism has yet to take hold and who knows if it ever will. And these folks are not the Soviets; there is no bargaining or reasoning or detente with them.”
          No, but they also are pretty limited in their ability to cause harm.
          More importantly, there are plenty of people much closer and much more in danger; THEY might actually get involved in their self-defense!
          Personally, I’m tired of defending the ‘rights’ of the French (for one) to screwed up economy and the ‘right’ to write screeds about US ‘cowboys’ with US tax dollars.
          Perhaps a dose of reality in the form of defense costs might have them close their yaps for a while.

          “I’m not sure that even a President Paul would be totally hands off. The superpower mantle makes it tough to stay out of things, even those we should stay out of.”
          I don’t know either, but I’d sure like it for him to give it the ol’ college try.

    2. I think everything you said between the words “Iraq” and “korea” is pretty much entirely wrong.

      But you’re entirely right that things are just as plenty-fucked-up in places we’ve completely ‘ignored’.

      I’ve made the point that the “nonterventionisms” types – who only see one form of cause-effect in world issues – will ascribe almost anything as being the singular consequence of US ‘actions’ (be they trade, diplomacy, or any destabilizing military action)… but as for ‘inaction’? there is no moral consequence.

      That said = Sevo is largely right that most (MOST) of this stuff aint really our bidness.

      i think Iraq is, to a degree… but for reasons slightly more complex than the ‘we broke it’ trope. Mostly to do with the fact that Iraq is pretty much doomed to be separated into ~3 states at some point. We probably need to ‘break it’ more. 🙂

      1. Non-intervention should be the default policy – it is not necessary or desirable to mention “blowback” in support of that.

        1. sigh

          “Non-intervention” is not a “policy”. its “non-policy”

          what are you even replying to?

          1. “Non-intervention” is not a “policy”. its “non-policy”

            Thanks, Bo.

            My point is that endless arguments over “blowback” go away if we recognize that we have no business intervening in affairs that are none of our business.

            1. ” “Non-intervention” is not a “policy”. its “non-policy”

              Thanks, Bo.

              he’d find this funny, since its him that i most frequently have to explain that to.

              Again = what are you replying to?

              Where am I talking about ‘blowback’ in the above comment?

              Also – this “no business” thing….

              the point about how “non-intervention” is not a ‘policy’ is because its an a priori determination sans consideration of what the actual issue is. The “Not intervening” part precludes and precedes the entire part of about determining “what our business is/isn’t”

              Its fucking dumb and doesn’t have anything to do with foreign policy.

              Its perfectly ok to say = we shouldn’t get involved with *X* or *Y* because Z … and say it pretty much every time an issue comes up. That’s still not predetermining the issue by rule.

              No, i’m not being pedantic = farther above i pointed out that “intervention” is defined as “interfering with a State’s Internal Affairs without their permission”.

              In the case of ISIS = Syria is actually OK with us attacking ISIS on their territory, and the nominal powers in Libya sanctioned attacks by Egypt against benghazi. They aren’t even “intervention” as “non interventionists” define it. Especially considering that the people being attacked are not even “a state”, but non-state actors.

              basically, this language of intervention/non-intervention is an elaborate excuse for not talking about ‘policy’ at all, and maintaining a morally-superior aloofness.

        2. Non-intervention is supposed to be the default policy. That’s why only Congress has the legal authority to declare war. Of course, like most of the Constitution, this limitation on the executive is a dead letter.

          1. When “Intervention” is described as =

            everything including ‘aid’, ‘diplomacy’, ‘trade agreements’, ‘intelligence sharing’, ‘mutual security agreements’, ‘arms sales’, etc…

            then the ‘default policy’ is by default ‘no policy’.

            I welcome the day when the ostensible “non-interventionists” limit their definition to “unilateral military action against foreign states”

            Instead, people like Richman et al (and many here) seem to consider any degree of engagement with the outside world to constitute ‘intervention’, and attributes any and all negative outcomes entirely to the involvement of the United States, even when the situation would have resulted in exactly the same outcomes regardless.

            This is why i think people need to get past this word and start talking about specifics rather than papering everything over with the “intervention/non-intervention” false-dichotomy

  19. Iraq was caused by pulling the troops out. It was relatively stable when Bush left office, thanks to the surge.

    I, uh…

    1. I, uh…

      Yeah, I know.

    2. We should have just stayed in Iraq forever. If we just stationed 50,000 troops in every country on Earth, I’m sure we could keep the peace from now til judgment day.

      All that would take is about 100,000,000 soldiers, which seems doable.

      1. did someone say stimulus?

      2. ED-209s. Who’s going to build them for us though?

        1. I will.

          For cheap – as long as you sign the service agreement, spare parts for 30 years, who cares if they work?

      3. We could have done it with less than 10,000 troops. You diminish your argument when you engage in that much hyperbole.

    3. It was. Combat operations had virtually stopped by 2009. ISIS invaded from Syria after the US left.

      But why let reality get in the way

      1. Should we permanently occupy and defend every country in the world?

        1. No. But that doesnt mean Iraq wasn’t stable when we left. It was.

          At this point we should invite ISIs to come to the US It would be consistent with open borders and allow the US to surrender before it causes more harm. That is something Ed and Richman could really get behind.

          1. John|2.15.15 @ 9:43PM|#
            “No. But that doesnt mean Iraq wasn’t stable when we left. It was.”
            For as long as a black car stays clean after a wash.

            “At this point we should invite ISIs to come to the US It would be consistent with open borders and allow the US to surrender before it causes more harm. That is something Ed and Richman could really get behind.”
            Ha.

          2. But that doesnt mean Iraq wasn’t stable when we left. It was.

            eh, sort of

            It was simmering waiting to boil over. It wasn’t what I would call “stable.” There was still a sectarian war going on. The shiites had “won” Baghdad, but there were still killings and bombings. Things picked up after the US left, yes. But there’s nothing to suggest that they wouldn’t have if more US troops had remained. And how much do you want to spend, how many American lives do you want to lose to protect the Anbar Province?

      2. Al Qaida (and the earliest forms of ISIS) killed so many Iraqi civilians that the public turned against them. The Coalition troops got a lot of tips and cooperation from the public, and captured insurgents gave up their buddies on the spot.

        Al Qaida WAS on the run for a time. We threw sheer numbers on them and that slowed them down. And Obama knew it. That’s why he was reluctant to follow Bush’s withdrawal timetable. But he’s a politician, if nothing else.

        Now he’s asking congress to send troops to stop ISIS? The one that’s consolidated power and has effectively spread fear among civilian population?

        1. That’s why he was reluctant to follow Bush’s withdrawal timetable. But he’s a politician, if nothing else.

          I don’t know why people don’t get this and keep forgetting this, but the US had no real choice to stay. They could stay if they wanted to fight shiites as well as sunnis, but that wasn’t a very good option. The US had to leave.

          1. No, we really didn’t.

    4. raq was caused by pulling the troops out. It was relatively stable when Bush left office

      That’s 41, not 43.

  20. Had we actually invaded Syria and Libya and kept troops there, there might have been stable government. At least until the troops left (like Iraq), but we still have troops in Japan and Germany and South Korea.Had we actually invaded Syria and Libya and kept troops there, there might have been stable government. At least until the troops left (like Iraq), but we still have troops in Japan and Germany and South Korea.

    That’s some mighty fine strategizing, Admiral.

  21. We can’t talk about how evil and loathsome contemporary Islam is without first talking about Egypt’s violent history under Ramses II.

    //Obama, Richman, Greenwald

    1. You are just poisoned with nationalism Geoff. And don’t pick on Richman he is Brooks’ favorite reason staffer

    2. Ramses did not want to talk about the details about his campaign against the Hittites.

  22. The Libyian civil war broke out on its own. All NATO did was randomly bomb a few people. Had the US not intervened, ISIS would still be there. Libyia would just look like Syria and the civil war would be still going on. Reason only knows how to write one thing about foreign policy; US intervention causes all bad things. I get it that they are anti intervention but it has become a one sized fits all excuse for not thinking.

    1. John|2.15.15 @ 9:19PM|#
      “The Libyian civil war broke out on its own. All NATO did was randomly bomb a few people. Had the US not intervened, ISIS would still be there. Libyia would just look like Syria and the civil war would be still going on.”

      Well, John, that’s a pretty good argument to stay the hell out; all of the lives and treasure we spent, we got exactly zero return.
      Thank you.

      1. We didnt lose any mives bombing Libyia. And that is an argument that Obama fucking it up and his intervention failed not that it couldn’t have been done better.

        1. How, pray tell, could we have done it better? What was there that would have kept it from dissolving into civil war that we realistically could have done?

          1. Nothing if we were not willing to go all in and make the place a UN mandate or just supported Gadafy and helped him restore order. We could have maybe gotten away with boming if we had taken the other side. instead we just helped ensure more chaos. Obama as usual make the dumbest choice available

        2. did not lose lives but did lose the relative stability offered by Qaddafi, and we certainly gained nothing. Some time later, Chris Stevens and three other lives were lost, lives that would likely not have ended absent NATO.

          1. If we wanted to do something we should have helped The other side

            1. John|2.15.15 @ 9:40PM|#
              “If we wanted to do something we should have helped The other side”
              We’re ALWAYS helping the other side. And then it turns out we should have helped the other, other side.
              John, neither you nor the supposed pros in the CIA have any idea who is going to allie with who in the mid-east six months down the road (except Israel).
              The people who live there, the Brits, the Italians, the French, the Spanish, why let them all pitch the dice for a while.
              I’ll sell tickets.

        3. John|2.15.15 @ 9:30PM|#
          “We didnt lose any mives bombing Libyia”

          You’re right. It was after our fine intelligence said is was a terrific time to open a legation.

      2. You also completely miss my point. It didn’t cause ISIS to go there but Reason tries to claim it did because blaming US intervention is the only thing it knows how to do. The magazine has nothing else to say about any foreign policy issue. It is stupid and lazy.

        1. You also completely miss my point. It didn’t cause ISIS to go there but Reason tries to claim it did because blaming US intervention is the only thing it knows how to do. The magazine has nothing else to say about any foreign policy issue. It is stupid and lazy.

          I completely agree about it being stupid and lazy. There are other people with a very skeptical view of US intervention that I read who seem to have a much firmer grasp of the actual issues in play.

          Last month, Peter Hitchens published an interesting run down of articles that he’d written in the lead up to the Iraq War. Every one of the articles has more depth to it than everything reason has published on the subject in the last year. I especially like this paragraph:

          Consistency and principle are hard to find in foreign policy. That is because proper, effective foreign policy is based mainly upon who has whose thumb on whose windpipe, with the ethics invented afterwards.

          Nasty and cynical, but it strikes me as more accurate than most of what Reason has to say about foreign policy.

  23. It could open up an important political debate on interventionism and its consequences

    It’s also quite possible that the situation in Libya would have unfolded pretty much as it has now, just more slowly and with more corpses. When a dictator falls who was keeping various factions who are very opposed to each other under their thumb civil war is generally the result. Yugoslavia and Iraq leap right to mind as clear examples. Also there are dictators who keep even worse actors in check even though they are villains in their own right, such as in Egypt and Syria.

    With all that in mind Libya was a situation that was screaming “Stay the Fuck Out” and the US and others went ahead and stuck their dicks in anyway. I have a feeling that oil did play a role in the decision to intervene there, that and some forlorn hope that it wouldn’t descend into the chaos that it was obviously headed towards.

    1. If NATO had done nothing it would look like Syria. Basically our intervention there accomplished nothing. That is the indictment of it not this rediculous bullshit that is caused ISIS.

    2. ” I have a feeling that oil did play a role in the decision to intervene there”

      duh.

      England, France, Italy, all have major oil interests/loans/company assets in Libya

      its why NATO was all Game-On for Libya while tepid about many other opportunities to get their bomb-on.

        1. Better than killing each other over how to prostrate oneself to the skydaddy.

        2. Does it not occur to you that the only times you’re funny is when you mock *yourself*?

          1. It’s turd, Gilmore. Respond as deserved.

          2. If Jesus were real, he’d make it all better.

  24. “We just weren’t hitting it hard enough.”

    1. Well it is a war against these people. Clearly the problem is we haven’t been accomodating enough

  25. I entirely oppose us putting troops on the ground against ISIS, but, Jesus, how do you avoid war with someone that’s constantly goading you?

    It’s sort of like if Hitler had sent us pictures of the holocaust starting–daring us to come in and stop him.

    1. You don’t. We are going to end up having to slaughter these people. They are not hoing to quit and no one over there is going to stop them. It is just a matter of time.

      Think of it this way, in 1940 the British Parliament told the RAF to take care not to damage private property when bombing Germany. four years later they were firebombing Dresden. At some point we will stop being civilized towards these people and start killing them.

      1. Why does it have to be us? Just let the goddamn Europeans take care of this sore on their backside.

        1. Because we’re a force for global good. C’mon, haven’t you been paying attention to the TV commercials?

        2. Just let the goddamn Europeans take care of this sore on their backside.

          Isn’t that interventionist?

          1. Winston|2.15.15 @ 10:45PM|#
            Just let the goddamn Europeans take care of this sore on their backside.
            ———
            “Isn’t that interventionist?”

            No, it isn’t. Do you need an explanation?

            1. No, it isn’t. Do you need an explanation?

              Yes please, I mean it wouldn’t be an American Intervention but surely it would be a European intervention?

        3. They’re total pussies. That’s why. Beta male civilization at its finest.

    2. how do you avoid war with someone that’s constantly goading you?

      It’s sort of like if Hitler had sent us pictures of the holocaust starting–daring us to come in and stop him.

      If we ignore them enough, they’ll stop. #WishfulThinking

      1. If we put troops on the ground against ISIS in Iraq, we will likely end up fighting them in Syria.

        They’re not going to respect the Syrian border–but we are?

        The primary consideration in foreign policy should always, always, always, be what’s in the best interests of the United States.

        It was not in the United States’ best interests to invade Rwanda, and it is not in the United States’ best interests to slog our way back into Iraq–and ultimately Syria. Sad as it may be, sometimes, the purpose of the U.S. military is to defend the United States.

        …not Iraq, Syria, or the fucking Levant. And I’m not convinced that us putting them on the ground is likely to have an impact on these genocidal human rights violations. All it takes is a camera, a knife, and an internet connection. We couldn’t stop the insurgents from slaughtering the Shia in Iraq before–why is this time going to be different?

        1. Here you are correct, Ken. We cannot be the ones to handle this problem. It is not.in our best interests to attempt to, not have we shown any particular competence at doing such things in the past. The u.s. has.been shown to be capable of winning at total war but a total war in this case would not be at all in our interest.

          It’s time we let the Europeans off their leash again and walked away from this.ridiculous mess. It should be.obvious to anyone paying attention that ISIS is trying it’s damndest to sucker us into another protracted engagement to grind us down.

          1. And at some point, they’re going to commit enough atrocities to provoke an invasion.

            Would chasing them out of Iraq end the video nasties?

            No. The last one came from Libya! Are we going to invade there, too? Where does it end?

            All that having been said, it’s going to work eventually. Eventually, they’re going to hit that limit, and we’re going to invade. I know we shouldn’t, and I know we will.

            It’s like reading about the Greeks preaching moderation in all things. Yeah, those Greeks: the most immoderate people in human history. I know what we’re about to do is foolish, and since ISIS can’t stop themselves from pushing our buttons–even if doing so means their ultimate destruction–I know we’re about to get foolish.

            We’re about to start an international Holy War in the fucking Middle East. And our closest thing to an ally in the region is Iran. Somebody please stop us. We’re out of our freaking minds.

            1. I fear that once we invade, ISIS will attempt to spin it as a war against Islam and try to get Muslim nations on their.side. I don’t know.if they would be successful but I can’t see one good reason they would try.to goad us into destroying them unless they are setting a trap of some sort.

              Perhaps the.economically ruinous nature of more years of blood and treasure flushed down the drain is the trap they want to spring on us. Perhaps it is something even more sinister. But I know it is a trap.

              1. “I can’t see one good reason they would try.to goad us into destroying them”

                Because:
                1) They are bleever fundies; reason is not part of the discussion.
                2) Because we can’t ‘destroy’ them; they morph into a new sub-group requiring a whole new effort to arm what were our enemies to destroy the new enemies.

              2. IT’S A TRAP!

      2. If we ignore them enough, they’ll stop. #WishfulThinking

        That’s what we keep saying about Buttplug.

        1. Wisely, I advocate the……attrition of his kind.

    3. Ken Shultz|2.15.15 @ 9:46PM|#
      “I entirely oppose us putting troops on the ground against ISIS, but, Jesus, how do you avoid war with someone that’s constantly goading you?”

      What is “goading you”?

      1. “The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) released another video today, this time showing the beheading of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians by ISIS militants in Libya, “a message signed with blood to the nation of the cross.”

        That’s “goading”.

        goad
        ??d/
        verb
        gerund or present participle: goading

        1.
        provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate some action or reaction.
        “he goaded her on to more daring revelations”

        1. The connotation in my mind has always been that someone who.has been goaded into doing something should have known better, and that the action in question ended up causing the goaded actor some measure of harm or embarrassment.

        2. I was afraid that’s what you meant.
          I’m very sorry to see that. And I’m not willing to pay one penny to do a dman thing about it.
          It is NOT OUR PROBLEM. People die from terrorist thugs and terrorist governments every damn day. it is NOT OUR PROBLEM.

          1. I agree with you.

            But I can see where this is headed.

            Nobody is going to listen to us.

            And ISIS isn’t going to stop doing stuff like this until someone stops them.

  26. All mysteries seem to be quite even
    The same also happened on 9/eleven
    Planes by remote control appeared to crash from heaven
    But Dov Zackheim missed one of the 3 with building Seven

    To all those who work for the media. In hope to find the courage to change ??

    As all real journalists must know the ties and connection between ISIS and sen. John Mc Cain they should pull the cover off this masquerade. They know of the picture taken by sen. Mc Cain with Al Baghdadi, the chief of ISIS. This picture was even denunciated by sen. Rand Paul from Kentucky during his interview on September 16 2014. By feeding into the propaganda of ISIS you are also selling out the future of your children and that of all the next generations. The Beast is no abstract figure or the final coming of past prophecies. His name: George H. Bush, father of George W. Bush. First and only CIA director to also become US president. Force and Violence will never succeed against the Beast that thrives on terror, wars and protests and is the ultimate master of Deception. Instead do all you can to make people aware of this selling out from the media and switch sides if you are part of the Beast entourage. The “yes, sir” of Humanity have sold their souls and betrayed the rest of the people for a bunch of silver. But why continuing to play the Monopoly game after someone has already stolen all the money?

    Watch how Jeb Bush gets elected.

    http://www.wavevolution.org/en/humanwaves.html

    1. Please visit this guy’s website. It’s the best thing since Time Cube.

      1. No.
        AC is more than enough.

      2. I’m ready to hand over all my money for the chance to ride their Mother Ship.

      3. That site is awesome. BEASTS, ZIONISM, and NEW WORLD ORDER explained!

      4. Except the walls of text are all the same size and color font.

        1. Never, mind I just looked at the home page. Holy crap.

          1. Not me.
            There’s enough craziness in front of you every day without looking for more.

    2. This is some quality crazy.

      In our days, a group of Zionists, like a hidden parallel government, with George Bush still today at the head of secret services in the US, UK and Israel, is the destabilizing force behind most terror events and with classified information at disposal and a private army is plotting what now would seem unthinkable to many. The spokesman for this group in the US Congress is John Mc Cain who reports the given orders weighing on the US administration. Incredibly, his picture taken with the chief of ISIS was discovered and reported by the news but with no consequence for the Senator since he is the one in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

      A World War and chaos everywhere have already been planned so that desperate people will soon invoke a New World Order without even knowing what that is.
      Not the protests or violence in the streets could ever oppose such threat to the whole Humankind.

      Love it, can’t wait for the sequel.

      1. I’m a Lionist as I Tow the Lion!

        1. This message was approved by the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

          1. That’s not flying,that’s falling with style!

  27. We are going to end up having to slaughter these people.

    Where have we heard that before?

    1. The Late P Brooks|2.15.15 @ 9:54PM|#
      “We are going to end up having to slaughter these people.”
      Where have we heard that before?”

      And is that the “end” of the war? When all of “these people” are slaughtered? And who are “these people” anyhow?

  28. wavettore|2.15.15 @ 9:52PM

    What.

  29. Don’t worry, though. We’re the good guys.

  30. And don’t pick on Richman he is Brooks’ favorite reason staffer

    You’re a sad, pathetic person.

  31. OK, question for all of you who are war-hawks or even half convinced we should be involved in Islamic sectual wars:
    Wars are supposed to be temporary; we fought WWII to defeat Japan and Germany. We then signed treaties and should have headed home.
    What goal do we have in the mid-east and what constitutes ‘victory’?

    1. Creating Democracy and “stability” I guess. Strongmen like Gaddafi, Saddam and Mubarak would be fine. Should take a few decades…

    2. I cannot see an endgame where we end up buying Iraqi or Syrian cars in 50 years. All I can see is more war and pain. The only reason we won against Germany and Japan was our willingness to wage a total war and pulverize their military capacity, economy, and leadership until they surrendered unconditionally. We have neither the capability, moral high ground, international backing, nor the national will to.do such a thing now.

      1. “The only reason we won against Germany and Japan was our willingness to wage a total war and pulverize their military capacity, economy, and leadership until they surrendered unconditionally. We have neither the capability, moral high ground, international backing, nor the national will to.do such a thing now.”

        Well…
        In both cases we went to war with a state, not an amorphous grouping of people. We presumed a collective enemy guilt and while civilians were rarely targeted, we were not going to halt offensive action if civilians died.
        It is simplistic, wrong and at the same time, about the only way to go to war.
        Hitler Jugend were as young as 14, and they died if they carried weapons. Japan was saved a far worse civilian death toll by the nukes, but then there was an effective national government there.
        In the mid-east, it’d have to be glazed desert.

        1. I dunno.

          Japan was a state, but they also had a superiority complex as a culture, basically viewing everyone else as inferior.

          Same thing with Germany, it wasn’t just Germany, but Germanic people in general (which supposedly justified invading some of those countries that had German populations).

          In both cases, we had to smash not just the state, but the ideology. We probably went too far in Japan (anime is perhaps the best example of this) but not far enough in Germany (they’re still very snooty and superior).

          It’s that sort of ideology that needs to be smashed. Going to war with a country is just the most direct way of doing it.

          We need to destroy Islamism as ideology. At the very least, we need to mock and criticize Islam as much as Christianity has. But we won’t do that. Beyond that, we need to crush the promoters of Islamism. But we won’t do that either, because some of those are our “allies”, like Saudi Arabia and now Turkey.

          1. as much as Christianity has been.

          2. “In both cases, we had to smash not just the state, but the ideology. We probably went too far in Japan (anime is perhaps the best example of this) but not far enough in Germany (they’re still very snooty and superior).”

            I’ll be happy to discuss this in the future, but you blew it here.
            The Germans accept a sort of a guilt; the Japanese, not at all.
            But not tonight.

        2. “civilians were rarely targeted”

          Curtis LeMay would have disagreed with you. As would a significant number of generals and admirals who did not agree that atomic bombs were necessary, or even useful to, the war.

          1. CatoTheElder|2.16.15 @ 3:58PM|#

            “Curtis LeMay would have disagreed with you.”
            The Tokyo raids were an admission that high-altitude, ‘precision’ bombing was not possible. The ‘target’ remained the military economy and by that time of the war, collateral deaths were not of much concern, and given the circumstance, it’s hard to argue.

            “As would a significant number of generals and admirals who did not agree that atomic bombs were necessary, or even useful to, the war.”
            And I will be more than happy to argue EVERY ONE you can come up with.
            I am more than tired of revisionist crap concerning the possibliity of NOT using those weapons.
            Please continue; names and claims of those who supposedly opposed the nukes. I’m well equipped to argue every, single one, with footnotes.

          2. CatoTheElder|2.16.15 @ 3:58PM|#
            “civilians were rarely targeted”

            One other comment:
            Before you start naming names and offering “quotes” of these various Generals and Admirals, I’d strongly suggest you read “Downfall” (Richard Frank). It will probably save you some embarrassment as quite a few of those claims have already been debunked.

        3. civilians were rarely targeted

          Civilians were directly targeted. They used euphemisms like “strategic bombing” to describe it. This happens in a total war of ideologies, where even the civilians, all men, women and children can be considered “enemies” of the revolution, enemies of people, enemies of the nation, enemies of [insert abstract construct here].

          World War II stands out historically as one of the few wars since Genghis Khan where civilians were treated as the strategic equivalent of enemy armies, equipment and supplies.

          1. Free Society|2.16.15 @ 5:28PM|#
            “Civilians were directly targeted. They used euphemisms like “strategic bombing” to describe it.”

            This was true in one area only; Bomber Harris and the Bomber Command over Germany. He alone claimed that bombing the population would result in a loss of morale sufficient to win the war.
            In all other cases, the civilian losses were accepted as a result of the impossibility of ‘surgical bombing’.
            Callous it was. By design, it wasn’t.

          2. BTW:
            “World War II stands out historically as one of the few wars since Genghis Khan where civilians were treated as the strategic equivalent of enemy armies, equipment and supplies.”
            Tell that to the citizens of Atlanta.

    3. Sevo, the Obama Real-Politic goal is low and obtainable – it is ‘Don’t Do Stupid Shit’.

      1. the Obama Real-Politic goal is low and obtainable – it is ‘Don’t Do Stupid Shit’.

      2. Palin’s Buttplug|2.15.15 @ 10:38PM|#
        “Sevo, the Obama Real-Politic goal”…

        Turd lies. That’s what turd does; turd lies.

        1. The turdlet only posts here because he is paid to do so. Do not engage him.

          1. I do not engage him. I insult him, I laugh at him, I call him names. I do not engage him.

            1. Carry on sir!

          2. I dunno, only a true believe would be that persistent.

            Even spam bots are bots. You couldn’t pay people to do that.

        2. But.. but.. Obama is a Nobel laureate, Sevo.. A. NOBEL. LAUREATE.

      3. Obama is the lord of ‘Stupid Shit’. And you eat it for him.

    4. “Islamic sectual”

      If that’s your thing, baby. Mee-ow!

    5. Unless we are willing to go whole hog against da Mooslems, we are wasting our time and making matters worse. And whole hog = total war, including the use of WMD’s. And mass reprisal, including internment camps. And beheading Mooslem children. On live television.

  32. On the lighter side..

    Parents in a Pennsylvania school district are turning 50 shades of red over word search puzzles given to middle school students based on an erotic novel and movie.

    The students in Monessen were given puzzles based on “Fifty Shades of Grey” that contained terms including “spanking,” ”submissive,” ”leather cuffs” and “bondage.” Other words on the list were more explicit.

  33. OT:
    I’m now getting ads for O-care which are not ‘sign up since it is wonderful!’. They are ‘sign up or the IRS is gonna be on your butt!’
    I’m sure this is really gonna make John and Joan Doe’s day!

  34. On topic:
    The Greeks are now pitching the military danger to NATO and the EU if Greece is ‘forced’ to leave the EU since Greece is Europe’s dead-beat brother-in-law:

    “Greek Postwar Alliances Show Europe Has More to Lose Than Money”
    […]
    “One would be justified to ask whether Europe, the U.S. and NATO could afford the creation of a security vacuum and a black hole in a critical region,” Thanos Dokos, director of the Hellenic Foundation for European and Foreign Policy,”
    (one would be justified to ask if the Greeks aren’t grasping at straws, too)
    “The diplomatic effort that persuaded Russia to halt the violence in Ukraine was punctuated by Tsipras’s own, far more amicable exchanges with President Vladimir Putin.”
    (Yeah, Pootie-Poot was just swept off his feet by the charm!)
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/…..than-money

    They do have a point in that the pathetic Euro-Trash argument since 1945 is nothing other than: “If you don’t pay for our defense, we’ll go commie!” And the US taxpayer has been covering the bill ever since.
    Personally, I of the opinion that some ISS(X) whackos cruising the Pantheon would do wonders in focusing the minds of the Euros, doncha think?

    1. It’ll be glorious, when the Germans tell them to fuck the hell off.

    2. some ISS(X) whackos cruising the Pantheon would do wonders in focusing the minds of the Euros

      When was it moved to Greece? I am so out of the loop.

        1. that’s the Parthenon.

          1. Pantheon, Parthenon… pool, pond…. same difference…. pond would be good for you.

          2. BigT|2.16.15 @ 3:17PM|#
            “that’s the Parthenon.”

            Ooops!
            (embarrassed-face icon)

  35. OT:

    Government has been wrong about cholesterol for 40 years.

    Good thing it’s not wrong about the important things, like climate change.

  36. Fucking shame that the wingnut-o-sphere has been on about BENGHAZI!!!!!!!! to such absurd lengths any for so long. I think the constant insane paranoid shoutings of this sort inevitably cause peoples’ eyes to glaze over at any any attempt to engage Hitllary and her ilk on an intellectual level over their giant cock-up in Libya.

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  39. Man, I see Weigel forget to take his meds last night.

  40. No mention of the mess that existed already and was the original cause of the intervention? Seriously??? Or is it to be understood that allowing a dictator to slaughter his people is universally preferable to taking a chance with an intervention?

    1. You didn’t know that the birth of Mohammed was also America’s fault?

    2. Yeah, funny how that “prevention” involved providing air cover for the rebels all the way to Tripoli.

      The original cause was largely cooked-up bullshit because Italy was freaking out over all the refugees sailing over from there, not because NATO actually gave a crap about preventing a potential slaughter.

    3. grapeape|2.16.15 @ 9:57AM|#
      …”Or is it to be understood that allowing a dictator to slaughter his people is universally preferable to taking a chance with an intervention?”

      It should be understood by now that every time we try ‘helping’ we end up with dead people, wasted money and a worse outcome.
      I think it behooves us to learn from mistakes.

    4. Taking a chance with an intervention would be (arguably) okay if there was any sort of PLAN for what to do afterward. Instead, we were given absolute idiotic prophecies about how Iraq would blossom into a US-like tolerant multicultural democracy, despite any bit of history evidencing that was even a possibility, and whose reconstruction would be funded by Iraq itself.

      1. Oh, lest we forget, TWELVE years later, the reconstruction — largely financed with US Treasury bonds — has been an utter failure.

        At best, there is Shia majoritarian rule in Baghdad. At worst, there is outright apartheid against Sunnis. ISIS’s rise probably would not have been as dramatic if the Iraqi central government had not spent the last decade alienating the Sunnis.

        The Kurds essentially have their own state, believing that the Baghdad government does not represent their interests (they’re right). The Kurdish peshmerga are the best fighting forces in the “country”, despite receiving relatively little US support due to outright hostility from Turkey.

        The Iraq Army — which we’ve poured God knows how much money into — is a joke. It completely fell apart when fighting ISIS and the government of Iraq was forced to rely upon Shia militias to protect Baghdad.

  41. Private mercs doing honeypot operations and security forces for Kurdish malls, Starbucks, movie theaters, PMCs for oilfields in return for trade deals by international companies who would sponsor the PMCs.

    Free trade in arms–not exclusively with governments as it is now, but truly open market trade with whomever. Berretta is an Italian company. Glock is Austrian company. FN Herstal, Belguim. And you have lots of Polish and Eastern European AK replicas.

    There are sooo much incentives for individual and property defense and trade, both inter and intra state that the problem would solve itself IF only western states would lift their restrictions.

    An example of honeypot operations in Egypt: just trying to revive the pre-Islamic/pre-Abrahamic religions ought to bring the nuts out of the woodworks. Who could among the righteous could resist fighting against idolatry and heresy?

    I’m not saying violence is going to end overnight. I’m saying there’s violence now and it’s mostly in one direction, in the form of aggression on various targets, something that a military invasion won’t help against. So this is what’s needed to allow people there, with the voluntary help of others, to counter that direction of violence.

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  44. Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul, a likely Republican presidential candidate, has been taking Clinton, a likely Democratic presidential candidate, to task over her role in the U.S. intervention in Libya for months. It could open up an important political debate on interventionism and its consequences

    This would be true if Paul wasn’t an incoherent mess when it came to ISIS.

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