Sex Work

The Rolling Stone UVa Story, Eden, and Media Exploitation

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The media reports a brutal, dramatic sexual assault, prompting widespread condemnation and calls for institutional change. Before too long, though, contradictory details emerge, and the original account is called into question. The veracity of the victim is challenged, resulting in a welter of charges and counter-charges, confusion, and unanswered questions.

This could be a brief summation of the controversy surrounding Sabrina Rubin Erdely's exposé of sexual violence at the University of Virginia, which ran in November at Rolling Stone. But it could just as easily serve as a thumbnail description of the narrative around Eden, a 2012 indie film directed by Megan Griffiths supposedly based on the real life experiences of sex trafficking victim Chong Kim. 

Erdely's article was centered on the story of Jackie, a young woman who described a gang rape at a fraternity house at UVA during her freshman year. The brutality and extremity of Jackie's story helped Erdely's report go viral—until inconsistencies in the account led Rolling Stone to print an apology and admit that they had failed to do sufficient fact-checking. Eden, too, was widely praised initially for its "excruciating vision"—a story depicting dozens of underage young women held in a brutal trafficking ring in the Southwest run by a marshall. It took longer for Chong Kim's story to be called into question, but two years after its release much of its narrative is in doubt. The Seattle newspaper The Stranger, which had championed Eden when it first came out, published a lengthy article earlier this month chronicling the charges and making a strong case that, whatever Eden is, it is not a true account of trafficking in the United States.

The Washington Post reported that Jackie tried to remove herself from the Rolling Stone story, but Erdely insisted on keeping her in the piece. If true, as Maya Dusenberry points out, is "a clear violation of ethical journalism guidelines for reporting on sexual assault," and seems to suggest that Rolling Stone was more focused on the riveting scoop than its ethical obligations. Similarly, while Chong Kim's story seems to have changed over time, the version in Eden, despite a "based on a true story" note at the beginning, appears to be pretty obviously fictionalized. Among other things, the film shows Kim killing one of the bad guys—which, if it happened, seems like it would expose her to murder charges. In both cases, then, protecting or helping the victim seems to take a back seat to the desire to craft an exciting narrative.

It's quite possible that both Chong Kim and Jackie experienced some kind of sexual assault or abuse—but simple, routine sexual assault isn't the story the media wanted to hear They also wanted to tell a gripping, riveting story—and sex and violence make a gripping, riveting story. More, the media goals of highlighting injustice and telling a gripping story often blur, so it's hard to tell which is which. As Jessica Luther, a journalist with a forthcoming book on football and sexual assault, told me:

We are saturated by a culture that sexualizes women but also demonizes them, that celebrates fuzzy consent and certainly doesn't punish it, that blames victims for the sexual violence done to them, that is sometimes willing to ask people to intervene but is never willing to directly say to men that they should not rape. This kind of saturation makes it so people don't really want to hear another story about a woman being sexually assaulted—and even if someone is willing to listen to story after story, what has to change to make it so these kinds of violent acts don't happen with such regularity feels insurmountable. So there is this idea then that to get people to care, the story of that violence that you share (either as a journalist or a survivor) has to shock people so that they say, "Damn, even in THIS culture that doesn't care much for women, THAT is bad."

As Luther says, people often don't want to hear about victims of sexual assault unless the stories are too horrible to ignore or brush aside. The painful flip side of that, though, is that, while there can be an impulse to minimize sexual violence, there's also a cultural enthusiasm for consuming it and packaging it as entertainment. If Eden were marketed as fiction, and without any other changes, it could be just another exploitation film. In stories about sexual violence the distinction between appealing to people's prurient instincts and appealing to their moral outrage can wear very thin.

Again, the impulse in looking for, and publicizing, sensational stories is often to wake people up, and to help victims. But the result can be the opposite. Most obviously, false accusations can damage the reputations of people who are innocent, and can make those who have been assaulted less likely to come forward, and less likely to be believed.

Beyond that, focusing on sensational stories can damage victims in other ways. Focusing on gang rapes by strangers can make it seem like that is the only sexual violence that counts as stranger violence, when most rapes are perpetrated by non-strangers, and a large percentage by friends, acquaintances, or intimates. There's perhaps an even more poisonous dynamic for sex workers, where narratives of sex trafficking, like those in Eden, are used to justify criminalizing prostitution, which puts the women involved at more, rather than less, risk.

"Eden was created to justify oppressive actions of law enforcement," according to Mistress Matisse, a Seattle dominatrix and sex-worker's rights activist who was one of the first to raise questions about the film. "It seeks to direct public money and resources away from real people who are truly suffering and asking for help, and towards sex-negative, sexist, racist, and generally repressive political agenda. The people most likely to be harmed by anti-trafficking policies are poor women, and most often women of color. They are most likely to be arrested and incarcerated, and to have their lives ruined by people who claim they are 'saving victims' by arresting them." 

Sexual violence or victimization usually doesn't fit into exploitation tropes. The violence most sex workers face routinely is being harassed, arrested, and (sometimes) assaulted by police. When trafficking does happen, it's generally not a giant conspiracy involving U.S. marshalls but small-scale, petty, cruel cases of individual blackmail—an unphotogenic nightmare, as in the documentary A Civil Remedy. Similarly, Erdely's well-documented discussion of the ways in which UVa's bureaucracy fails to provide adequate resources or options for everyday victims of sexual assault was buried by the sensationalism of, and backlash against, Jackie's story.

"It's possible that the truth of sexual violence is too messy to fit within journalism's narrative preference for perfect victims and villains," Maya Dusenberry argues. I think that's right—but it's not just a desire for perfect victims and villains that makes it difficult to report on these issues. There's also a desire for exploitation itself, both on the part of the media and on the part of their audiences. For those who want to save victims and those who want to blame them, there is, or can often be, an investment in the narratives of sex and violence. Unless a writer, or a reader, is very careful, victim's stories, and the outrage or horror or titillation they provoke, become more important than the victims themselves.   

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  1. We are saturated by a culture that sexualizes women but also demonizes them, that celebrates fuzzy consent and certainly doesn’t punish it, that blames victims for the sexual violence done to them, that is sometimes willing to ask people to intervene but is never willing to directly say to men that they should not rape.

    Right. I know nobody ever told me that rape was bad. I had to figure it out on my own eventually.

    1. I have been to the land of scarecrows and strawmen. This is the culture she speaks of. It is a wondrous place filed with poorly constructed, untenable arguments and broad generalizations.

      1. Sounds like a fun place, as long as brick walls to bang your head against in frustration are plentiful.

        1. Here you go:
          |#| …
          |#| .. ..
          |#| . . ______
          |#| .? . _____
          |#| < } . _____
          |#| .~~ .
          |#| .. ..
          |#| | |

          1. Should have clicked “preview”. Oops.

        2. Screw that, Gasoline is sooo much more satisfying…Yes I’m one of those people who say “let it burn” when the option comes up.

      2. Jessica Luther’s comments on rape stories needing to be spiced up reminds me strongly of Stephen Schneider’s comments on how they need to make up scary stories about climate and the environment to get people’s attention. (But still tell the truth while making shit up. They don’t like it when you leave that out that he said hopefully you can do both. Makes no sense as doing both is lying and telling truth at the same time but it seems to be a prog thing).

        1. And Gruber lying about Obamacare – except making it more benign.

          People (and by people I mean leftists) lie about everything. Their intentions are good and they’re on the right side of history so STFU.

          H&R IS FULL OF DENIERS!!!!

          Global climate change, rape, Keynesian economics.

        2. Yeah, the author is burying the lede here. It is this attitude that men are just raping everyone and getting away with it that creates the “need” for these phony shock stories.

          Not sure why Berlatsky just lets Luther’s assertion go unchallenged. Perhaps he is trying to find common ground and feels he has bigger fish to fry.

          But as long as we continue to abide a false narrative in which everyone is indifferent to rape because boys will be boys, then we justify any intervention to counteract that culture. If people cannot be trusted to report rape, then our authorities must take action.

    2. Wow. That is one huge heapin’ helpin’ of grade A bullshit right there.

    3. She must not live in Texas, where rape is a Class 2 felony punishable by 2 to 20 years imprisonment and aggravated rape is a Class 1 felony punishable by 20 years to life. That, and a lifetime stigma of having to register as a sex offender.

      The law in Texas is quite explicit in saying “to men that they should not rape”.

      The broad must be from an alternate universe.

      1. Well clearly convicted rapists receive a massive amount of sympathy from the public at large. I mean, there’s certainly no attitude that they deserve worse than they get, with plenty of people having fantasies of castration and such.

        And of course, rape is something that is widely shown throughout Western media as a morally neutral action based on the circumstances. Not like say, extreme violence. It’s certainly not largely avoided in media for being morally disgusting and only ever used to portray how truly evil an individual is.

        Truly we line in this horrible rape culture where rapists face long prison sentences for their actions, no public sympathy for their crimes, and a media culture that goes out of its way to use rape as an indicator of true evil.

        1. Yeah, I know, I mean, didn’t the main character of South Pacific rape a woman? Wait, no, he killed a guy. Ok, Steven Segall characters are totally glorified rapists.. No, not him either? He also just kills guys?

          Well, it is true though that we do live in a culture where a man can get away with raping a woman if he had hormonal problems or did it in self defense… wait, no, that’s women who kill men.

          I guess we live in a murder culture then?

    4. The old-fashioned culture that the feminists are so eager to destroy sure as hell told men directly not to rape. I was brought up in a culture that said that the only place you should see a rapist is dangling from the branch of a tree, sans testicles.

      They’ve replaced it with a culture where nobody is ever at fault for his behavior. And they’re stupid enough to be shocked by the results.

      1. I was brought up in a culture that said that the only place you should see a rapist is dangling from the branch of a tree, sans testicles.

        You were raised by the Ku Klux Klan?

    5. Right. I know nobody ever told me that rape was bad. I had to figure it out on my own eventually.

      You being a man, ie future rapist, how on Earth did you figure that out on your own?

    6. Jessica Luther: idiot.

      Noah quotes idiot as expert.

      Noah: ?.

      Since when do libertarians go along with obviously wrong in-group markers rather than ridicule them? Not a reputation enhancing article.

    7. “… but is never willing to directly say to men that they should not rape.”

      No, some men/boys use the power of persuasion, alcohol, and size/strength
      over a woman/girl to have sex.

      Parents should talk about these scenarios to their sons and daughters.

      If women/girls are going to be reprimanded and chastised for drinking then, men/boys should also be reprimanded and chastised.

      You never hear anyone say, “Those boys should not drink because it impedes their good judgement.” Like I’ve never heard anyone say, “I’m sorry son, I know she was too strong for you to realistically fight back and say NO.” What you do hear implied is, “She was drunk and the clothes she was wearing were too revealing for her attacker to contain himself. She did come to a party with males present. What did she expect? Is she stupid or something? ”

      Here is another subliminal accusation that happens, males over 18 are always called men.
      Females over 18 are called young women or teenage girls, never just “woman”.

      Conversations are a good thing people.

  2. a story depicting dozens of underage young women held in a brutal trafficking ring in the Southwest run by a marshall.

    What can I say? “Monocle polishing” is quite lucrative.

    1. Marshall is just a composite of persons who’s name includes an ‘M’.
      “Southwest” is a pseudonym for ‘not Upper East Side, Manhattan’ (where the editors live).

      1. “Red” State kind of stuff.

  3. “Similarly, Erdely’s well-documented discussion of the ways in which UVA’s bureaucracy fails to provide adequate resources or options for everyday victims of sexual assault was buried by the sensationalism of, and backlash against, Jackie’s story.”

    Didn’t all that turn out to be made up, too?

    1. The emails from Erdely seem to point that out quite clearly.

      1. At this point, I question even the existence of UVA. Nothing else in the story has been true, can I be certain the University in question even exists?

        1. At this point, I doubt the existence of Rolling Stone and Virginia. I mean, who would willingly name their magazine or state that?

          1. I for one have never seen a stone roll.

        2. I watched an Aerial America show on Virginia just yesterday. They showed the UVA campus. I did not know that it was such a beautiful campus.

          1. Edgar Allen Poe briefly attended. I guess he had a little bit of a gambling problem so didn’t make it very long.

            1. So did Woodrow Wilson (law school), and he also didn’t finish iirc.

          2. I love Aerial America. I think I’ve seen every one made so far. My favorite was Hawaii.

            1. I have my dvr full of them. but not Hawaii. I’ll have to look for it. Montana was pretty cool.

              1. They fly over the church where Charles Lindbergh is buried in Hana, and drop one of his last quotes:

                “I would rather live one day in Maui than one month in New York.”

                And you can see what he’s talking about.

            2. I wish on the Virginia one they had spent note time on the scenery and less on the civil war history lessons which I could get from the History channel anytime.

              1. I wonder how long it takes to shoot those. The California episode didn’t even have Southern California.

                1. I don’t know. That’s wild. Maybe they should have split CA into two shows.

                  1. They should have split it into six shows.

                    [ducking]

  4. Luther makes a good point that sensationalism is what grabs the attention, but that’s common sense.

    But:

    “We are saturated by a culture that sexualizes women but also demonizes them, that celebrates fuzzy consent and certainly doesn’t punish it, that blames victims for the sexual violence done to them, that is sometimes willing to ask people to intervene but is never willing to directly say to men that they should not rape.”

    Men certainly know that they are not supposed to rape women. That’s deceitful.

    The ‘blame the victim’ meme is so often repeated without any corroboration that it has taken on factual status. Do women sometimes get blamed when they are really a victim? Yes, of course, but it gets repeated so often that it has become a lesson now taught to women. Instead, why not recognize that the police take rape accusations very seriously. And, furthermore, when they cannot get enough evidence to successfully prosecute the case, it doesn’t mean the woman wasn’t believed. Most likely it’s traumatic for the woman to report, let’s encourage women to report and have their cases put on record rather than scaring them away.

    Third, humans communicate and express themselves in a very complicated and nuanced manner. While it has it’s downsides, let’s not pretend that ‘our culture sexualizes women’. Sexuality is part of humanity and both genders are sexualized in different ways, so stop pretending that women are victims of their own humanity.

    1. But guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is so 1800″s. There are horrible people out there though who do all types of harm. Young men also need to remember one rule,don’t have sex with a drunk chick. I’ve always followed that rule and am sure it kept me out of trouble.

    2. It is not only that men know not to rape women, but that the overall culture does not think rape is a wrong and never says so that is infuriating and an obvious untruth.

      1. Indeed. Rape is regarded as worse than murder. Think, how many ‘good guys’ in film, television, and modern literature are murderers? A lot of them. Hell, in action movies, most of them. Now, how many are rapists?

        If a male character in a movie/TV sexually assaults a woman, you know he’s a bad guy, and will probably die. Murder, could go wither way. I think a survey conducted once even found that men would rather be considered murderers than rapists.

        There is almost no act more maligned than rape. If someone isn’t convinced rape is ubiquitously condemned, then they won’t be convinced anything is condemned in this society.

    3. “let’s not pretend that ‘our culture sexualizes women’.”

      I think its fairly obvious our culture sexualizes women moreso than it does men. Take our media. It’s much more common that male movie, tv or even news media stars will be average looking joe’s while it’s much more rare for women. Take movies like the Grown Up series. The male stars look like guys you might run into on the street today, but they are married to Salma Hayek and Maria Bello.

      1. So all the chicks grinding their asses into dudes crotches at the clubs is society sexualizing them?

        1. Er, they’re not doing that for free, you know? There’s a demand side to that, and the fact that there’s a much larger industry catering to that kind of thing as opposed to the opposite supports the point, doesn’t it?

          1. I’m not talking about strip clubs.

            1. Ok, my mistake there. I don’t think the fact that some women act in such ways undercuts the idea our society specializes them.

              1. Sexualizes

                1. I do my part. I’m just glad women don’t sexualize me because that would be horrible.

                2. We’re one chromosome away from being chimpanzees. What do you want?

              2. I don’t think the fact that some women act in such ways undercuts the idea our society specializes them.

                You and John should never change.

      2. “I think its fairly obvious our culture sexualizes women moreso than it does men.”

        Um, no it is not. Men and women are sexualized equally just differently.

        Women are primarily sexualized for their bodies, men for their status and to a slightly lesser extent their bodies.

        The main difference is they are sexualized in such a way as to appeal to the average member of the opposite gender

        1. 50 Shades of Grey

      3. You’re missing the point. Humans are innately sexual – it’s natural. Arguing that one side is sexualized more by citing only one example supporting that one side is childish.

        1. above was meant in reply to Bo Cara Esq.

        2. That puritanism is hard to kill.

        3. It’s almost like we’re hundred thousand year old computers working on last week’s software or something.

          No matter how much you wish to ‘program’ some new sociological ‘software’ into the human mind, if the hardware can’t support it it’s not going to work.

          Onward to the New Soviet Man!

        4. Sexuality is part natural but part cultural (maybe better said it’s natural but channeled culturally). You yourself seemed to concede that men and women are at the least sexualized differently (for different things, status v. body for example).

          1. MY culture does not “sexualize” women. Bo can claim HIS culture “sexualizes” women, but he has no right to insult my culture. Note the arrogance and entitlement: he does not even bother to ask about my culture or any other human culture, past or present. He is a narcissistic cultural fascist, assuming HIS misogynistic culture is the only culture that’s relevant. Not all cultures “sexualize” women. Many cultures revere women in their natural state and celebrate their amazing qualities — a long list which includes (but it certainly not limited to) a healthy, vigorous sexuality.

          2. Being sexualized doesn’t mean being a victim. We all want the others to find us sexually attractive. That’s just nature.

      4. Looks isn’t the only way to sexualize.

      5. The men also drive nicer cars and wear nicer clothes than almost any man you’d meet on the street.

        The fact that men are less ‘sexualized’ overtly is simply because female sexuality isn’t just a mirror image of male sexuality; they’re not into precisely the same things (like perpetually exposed bosoms). For example, romance novels are to women what porn is to men.

        My solution to the ‘problem’ of ‘objectification’ of women is this: deal with it. Males and females have innately different sex drives that respond to different things. People should grow up, ditch the social constructionist bullshit, and learn to live in reality.

        1. @MarkLastName
          “My solution to the ‘problem’ of ‘objectification’ of women is this: deal with it. Males and females have innately different sex drives that respond to different things. People should grow up, ditch the social constructionist bullshit, and learn to live in reality.”

          This. This is exactly right.

      6. its fairly obvious our culture sexualizes women moreso than it does men.

        When I tell you to go fuck yourself, it isn’t personal– I’m just sexualizing you (a man, allegedly) in order to counterbalance our culture’s tendency to sexualize women.

  5. “….protecting or helping the victim seems to take a back seat to the desire to craft an exciting narrative.”

    Seems like an accurate description of the left with regards to every fake ’cause’ they have. Income inequality, rape culture, global warming, racism, gun violence…..etc. It is their SOP. In fact, they need those victims. If you could remove any of those victims from victim class they would hunt you down and kill you.

    Also, when you see ‘Based on a true story’, unless you are twelve years old then read that as ‘bullshit’. The Legend of Boggy Creek, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, When the Mountains Tremble, and Eaten Alive! are all based on true stories.

    1. I remember seeing “Boggy Creek” in the 70’s – so awesome.

      I knew as a young teen that it was bullshit. The fact that grown-ass adults these days buy the huckster’s wares – well, I think it’s cause they want to.

      1. Exactly. Because they want to.

        An elderly acquaintance of mine called me once wanting to know what to do with the large check they had received in the mail. It came with instructions to deposit in her account along with some other shell game-like instructions.

        I took her to the bank and sat her down with the bank manager. The check was a counterfeit cashier’s check from that bank. Right up until the manager explained in great detail how the scam worked I could see that the poor old woman had wished herself into believing the money was good.

    2. Exactly

    3. Fargo.

  6. The Feminists haven’t had anything to say about rape that actually HELPED in at least 20 years. It is THEY who trivialize rape. It is they who make people question the honesty of any woman who claims to have been raped, because it is the Feminists who have loudly inserted themselves into so many cases of fraud, seldom to their credit.

    1. I won’t believe Feminists (or anyone else) are serious about rape until they start laying some heaping social scorn on women who do not report having been raped to the authorities

      1. Yeah, they seem peculiarly apathetic to whether alleged victims report the crime, which betrays that they don’t even buy it themselves. If I knew there was a monster out there who was a danger to others, I’d sure as shit do everything I could to convince the victim to go to the police right away. Feminists see remarkably nonchalant about the idea of rapists getting away with rape so they can keep on raping.

  7. …”We are saturated by a culture [that is] is never willing to directly say to men that they should not rape.”…

    Does this woman believe this, or is she flat out a lying piece of shit?

    1. Personally, I think it’s safer to suggest “Feminists are surrounded by a culture that is never willing to directly say to feminists that they shouldn’t lie through their teeth.”.

    2. Personally, I think it’s safer to suggest “Feminists are surrounded by a culture that is never willing to directly say to feminists that they shouldn’t lie through their teeth.”.

    3. They demonstrate their commitment to the cause with their willingness to say stupid shit in public. It’s a purity test.

  8. There are few groups that seem to be as universally reviled in the comments at H&R like feminists. Some of that is understandable: a lot of Western feminists have thrown their lot in with statism in general, Marxism in particular.

    But we shouldn’t be as sloppy in thinking about feminism as some of them are. Some of them have some honest points. It’s true that for a long time there were some pretty repressive laws aimed at women and that laws and attitudes about women alleging they were raped were and still can be bad. It’s pretty rare to go to a trial of a robbery or burglary and see the alleged victim questioned at length about whether they were careless in locking their doors in the past or dressed like they had money to steal, but that was not only common in the past but still continues today. Events like the Steubenville rape show that there is something to the charge that some rapes are not taken as seriously as they probably should be. Of course it’s nowhere near what some feminist activists screech about, but it’s worth noting that there is some evidence of what the more reasonable people in that movement are concerned about.

    So, while I’m all for calling out the extremist feminists who lie and ally themselves with statism, I’m not going to say feminists are all bad or that feminism is, itself, a bad thing.

    1. Here’s an example of the kind of thing that I think has convinced someone like Rand Paul that some of our biggest institutions still have some serious issues in dealing with rape allegations:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09…..d=all&_r=0

    2. “There are few groups that seem to be as universally reviled in the comments at H&R like feminists”

      Well, for one – *you’re* not a feminist.

      1. Such a sly wit, surely wasted on us poor plebes.

    3. I tend to not use hackneyed terms like “radical feminists.” However, it is certainly clear that a large number of the most vocal members of the movement are dishonest, and Luther’s little word salad quoted above is filled with a large amount of nonsense.

      1. “Luther’s little word salad quoted above is filled with a large amount of nonsense.”

        Exactly.

        It has nothing to do with ‘feminists’ or anyone ‘reviling specific classes of victim-groups’.

        It has everything to do with the *inherent dishonesty of the words that come out of the mouths of the specific people who claim to be speaking on behalf of X issue*

        What the “X issue” is… is generally besides the point.

        Its the horseshit-rhetoric of ‘culture blaming’ , claiming that the things they are ‘struggling’ against are widespread, ingrained, institutionalized, and reinforced by a system that is literally set up against them.

        Its apparently not enough to simply say =

        “Victims of Rape – a crime that has been declining for 20+ years in America – continue to face genuine difficulties in reporting allegations, and certain institutions like universities are caught in a perverse bind between the legal system and providing a ‘support group’…. etc”

        No = its

        a) CULTURE!!!, therefore
        b) DUE PROCESS MUST BE THROWN OUT

        And if you dare to think they’re maybe jumping the gun to b), well then,

        c) ACCUSE ANYONE WHO DISAGREES OF PERPETUATING RAPE CULTURE

        1. “continue to face genuine difficulties in reporting allegations”

          Other than the lying to inflate concern, which I think everyone outside of them finds appalling, is it that they attribute these to a ‘culture’ that is the problem? It’s a pretty amorphous term, but I think they are looking at historical laws and attitudes and linking them to these ‘genuine difficulties’ and calling that ‘the (or ‘a’) culture.’

          I’m curious, how do you explain what went on in Stuebenville without referring to ‘culture’ or ‘societal attitudes’ or what not?

          1. Or the kind of Article 32 hearings described in my link? It seems to me that these are indicative of a ‘culture’ that makes reporting rapes problematic. Now, if they were more honest some of these activists would start by admitting that that culture has significantly improved in recent history rather than acting like it’s the same (or even more absurdly) worse. But of course very few activists start off their pleas for action with ‘things are getting dramatically better, so let’s keep chipping away!’ That’s not just a feminist thing.

            1. Then why not just report on this stuff everytime it happens? Look at how quickly the whole gay marraige issue was turned around due to perceived unfairness (which to many, especially the yutes equates to injustice). How hard would it be to get real reform if they just tell the damn truth.

              1. The affirmative consent lobby and feminists won’t admit that there can be some grey area when it comes to sex.

                Sometimes “no” does mean “yes” and sometimes people don’t want to provide an undeniable “yes”. It can be a bit sexy to be “convinced” – whether your male or female. It’s called seduction.

                Obviously, there’s a huge distinction to be made between a violent rape and gentle persuasion, but, to a small extent, that can be open to interpretation.

                1. That’s exactly right

                2. Yes means NO! The feminist women’s groups on college campus, in law enforcement, government in America believe that when a woman says yes to sex –she really means no. No matter what the woman says or does the answer to sex is always –NO! YES means NO! No means NO, maybe means NO, silence means NO. If she gets sexy and physical with a man, and says she wants sex, the man must realize the answer is still NO! and walk away. Yes means NO!

                  1. Yes means you were tricked. Hoodwinked. Bamboozled.

          2. Um, dumbass teens thinking with their penises not brains while drunk off their asses?

            Seems to pretty well sum up Stubenville

            1. I’m talking about the coin unity reaction

              1. Community

                1. A lot of people rallied behind OJ even after he murdered two people. This is no peculiarity to rape. Sometimes a community will come down hard on those they perceive to threaten its cohesion, and sometimes this takes a barbarous form. Students of crown psychology are well aware of this effect.

                  By and large, though, I would say even murderers would have an easier time avoiding ostracization than rapists.

          3. You can’t credibly use one incident and claim it’s representative of some kind of ‘rape culture.’

            The myth of rape culture ONLY exists on the presumption that all men have a natural interest in rape and therefore so many act out or turn a blind eye to it because it’s institutionally or culturally condoned.

            In addition to that untruth, feminists grossly stereotype the reaction of authorities and our culture regarding rape reporting by doing the same thing you’re doing – taking a selected sample (or by using antiquated historical norms) and presenting them as stereotypical.

            And, if this was nothing but an intellectual debate, that would be one thing. But, these issues are affecting policies at universities and elsewhere to the effect that men are denied even the most basic elements of due process. How friggen sexist is that?!

            1. I don’t think most feminists who talk about rape culture would agree with your definition of what they’re talking about.

              1. Then you’re fucking retarded because that’s exactly what they mean and they’ll say it to your face.

                1. Then you’re fucking retarded because that’s exactly what they mean and they’ll say it to your face.

                  Standard Bo-Bo tactic. He blatantly misinterprets people to further his “argument.”

                  Why the regulars continue to interact with him is perplexing.

          4. If it happened routinely, then I would say it could possibly reflect a cultural attitude. But the story is sensational because it’s abnormal and therefore by definition cannot reflect a predominant cultural attitude.

            The caveat that a feminist will insert without any credible evidence is that it is commonplace, and thus emblematic of the real cultural attitude.

            In short, its a conspiracy theory and nothing else.

        2. “Its the horseshit-rhetoric of ‘culture blaming’ , claiming that the things they are ‘struggling’ against are widespread, ingrained, institutionalized, and reinforced by a system that is literally set up against them.”

          The socialist strategy of destroying a system before replacing it with a Marxist system is what is in play here. That is why they take that approach. Fixing a problem is not the point of it. Undermining a system is.

          1. I think the ‘cultural marxism’ argument has some truth to it… while also being broadly inaccurate….

            Back in the 1990s the idea that all the Left-wing activist groups were engaged in a collective, coordinated campaign to undermine ‘Western Values’ was fairly popular w/ the Right.

            I think the issue is more that the left has over many years adopted methods and approaches to how they talk about issues that makes rational debate or criticism impossible. They turn every issue into a moral posture, and then lash out at anyone who disagrees as being ‘part of the problem’.

            Its not so much that they’re undermining Western Institutions so much as the ‘Way We Talk About Things’ = the George-Lakoff school of ‘framing’ is just the latest thing in this campaign to create Narratives where they perpetually claim to maintain the moral high-ground.

            I agree with you that in many cases, the ostensible ‘issue’ is not even the issue. As with Environmentalists not really being about the ‘environment’ – the proponents of “Rape Culture” are not in reality particularly concerned with the actual crime of ‘Rape’ as they are gaining as much political leverage as possible to wield against their perceived ideological enemies.

            yes, its about “power”…

            …but I hesitate to talk about it terms of a ‘marxist conspiracy’, which just plays to their victim-schtick, claiming their critics are all Right-Wing-Nutjobs.

        3. and if the inconvenient fact that rape is declining gets in the way, conflate it with “sexual assault” and water down the definition to include conduct that is not rape and push the idea that “regret = rape” as if consent can be withdrawn after the fact. Once that is done, pushing the mythical “1 in 5” stat to support your “solutions”, that, unsurprisingly, puts them in charge.

        4. It’s the dishonesty and the overwhelming focus on ideology over an actual ‘pro-woman’ stance. I’d be a lot more positive towards feminists if, say, when Thatcher died they recognized her as a great symbol of women’s liberation and the position a woman can achieve (and there were some feminists who did this, good on them). But the majority of feminist responses were more in line with the typical complaints of leftists about Thatcher Era Britain.

    4. Wendy McElroy is a feminist that I totally respect and have enjoyed reading for years. She’s actually had a couple of things published on Reason recently which I thought were well received. When you speak the truth or are at least trying to be honest and fair I will hear you out. When you are full of bullshit, I will call you out.

      1. Agreed

      2. McElroy’s the shit, I highly recommend Freedom, Feminism, and the State.

      3. There’s no denying that there are good ones: McElroy, Cathy Young, Paglia, Sommers. But they’ve all been disowned and excommunicated by the mainstream movement.

        Contrary to the oft-made claim that the problem feminists are only a few radicals on the fringe, it actual pro-equality ones like McElroy that are the fringe today; the mainstream is radicalized.

        Maybe there is a sane silent majority among feminists, but they only deserve to be acknowledged when they cease to be silent and stop abetting the lunatics running their movement.

    5. It’s pretty rare to go to a trial of a robbery or burglary and see the alleged victim questioned at length about whether they were careless in locking their doors in the past or dressed like they had money to steal, but that was not only common in the past but still continues today.

      I’m pretty sure it is common in cases where the defendant claims that the property was freely given rather than stolen. It’s just rare that robbery or burglary cases involve consensual alternative explanations.

    6. I’ll add a response to this:

      Events like the Steubenville rape show that there is something to the charge that some rapes are not taken as seriously as they probably should be.

      It may just be an idiosyncratic observation, but my late wife’s experience was that the guys she dealt with when she reported her rape (police, EMTs) were much more solicitous and sympathetic than the women (nurses, hospital social worker).

      I think it’s absurd to try to pitch off as “patriarchy” things that can just as easily be understood from the perspective of female social competition.

    7. I’ll throw in that there seems to be, with any ideology, an application of Gresham’s Law. The reasonable people have generally been drummed out of mainstream feminism.

    8. “It’s pretty rare to go to a trial of a robbery or burglary and see the alleged victim questioned at length about whether they were careless in locking their doors in the past or dressed like they had money to steal,”

      It’s pretty rare to go to a trial in the case of rape and see the alleged victim questioned about doors or clothing at all. In fact, it is literally prohibited to even ask about the alleged victims sexual behavior, even if the victim had sex moments before the alleged assault, resulting in physical evidence.

      So this is a banal point.

      “Events like the Steubenville rape show that there is something to the charge that some rapes are not taken as seriously as they probably should be.”

      You mean the rape case where a victim who wasn’t even saying “no” became the center of a national story? Or was there another Steubenville rape case I am not aware of, and to which you are referring?

      1. “In fact, it is literally prohibited to even ask about the alleged victims sexual behavior”

        Did you not see my link about the Article 32 military hearings?

        “You mean the rape case where a victim who wasn’t even saying “no” became the center of a national story?”

        The unconscious girl?

        1. “Did you not see my link about the Article 32 military hearings?”

          No. Explain what happens and how it argues for whatever case you are trying to make. Rape shield laws, however, are very much a thing.

          “The unconscious girl?”

          That was a core issue of contention in the trial, for the reason that it would constitute rape if she was unconscious, and because the nation took very seriously the question of whether she was, because the nation takes rape very seriously.

      2. There are many feminist women’s groups who lobby the government and make the government and Law enforcement believe that all men are evil and all women are angels that can do no wrong when it comes to sex. They openly believe and promote that ALL men are rapists or future rapists. The prejudice and sexist hating of men is politically correct and encouraged in countries like America and Great Briton. Which they then force other countries to make anti-male laws or face economic or military sanctions. This creates a terrible environment for men since hating men because they are men is considered the right thing to do.

        They believe that all women should be treated like children in regards to sex. They feel that it is impossible for a woman to give consent to sex with a man. Therefore all sex with a man is considered rape. Any women who tells them that they gave consent to sex with a man they feel must be mentally insane and needs mental help. Because what women in their right mind would ever consent to having sex with a man?

  9. “the original account is called into question. The veracity of the victim is challenged, resulting in a welter of charges and counter-charges, confusion, and unanswered questions”

    Wow, that almost makes it sound as though the Rolling Stone story wasn’t “Total horseshit from the get-go, recognized immediately as such by anyone with a brain, and completely blown apart by having a single journalist ‘make a few phone calls to witnesses’ that the original writer failed to even *try* to do.”

    ‘called into question, etc’ = That’s a lot of weasel words for saying, “shown to be complete fabrications

    Or is there an actual case being made by anyone, anywhere that the Rolling Stone story actually got *anything* right?

    The only “unanswered questions” are to the author Erdley (who remains in hiding?) = as in, ‘Did you do ANY actual reporting here’?

    1. that the original writer failed to even *try* to do.”

      My guess, and this is only a guess, is that she was prepared to call the witnesses, and she intended to do so. At some point, she decided that it wasn’t going to lead where she wanted the story to go, so she consciously chose not to reach out to the witnesses.

      It wasn’t laziness, it was malice.

      1. She’s actually been very upfront that she went looking for a particular ‘narrative’ to tell. Even before her story fell apart she wrote about how she interviewed lots of alleged victims but wanted to find a story involving a genteel, Southern public college with a good reputation. That kind of start should have keyed everyone into being suspect of the later reporting.

        1. In hindsight, sure. It could have been that she was just an unorthodox investigator using unusual but sound methods to gather her stories. I have no problem with that at all. Without unorthodox journalistic investigations, wonderful things like the Vice Donkey Fucking series wouldn’t exist at all.

          But, in hindsight, her words are the words of a woman who is about to be caught lying. She is making excuses in advance. She has clearly concluded that the narrative that she is looking for does not exist, so she fictionalized it and tried to present it as true. She can’t claim that she was mislead or duped.

          It’s the main reason that she is “off the grid” right now. She knows there is no lie, no excuse that can save her. And every article that she has ever written is under a microscope, and she knows that she has lied before and it will be discovered.

          Malice.

          1. “It’s the main reason that she is “off the grid” right now. She knows there is no lie, no excuse that can save her. And every article that she has ever written is under a microscope, and she knows that she has lied before and it will be discovered.”

            I think she is waiting to reinvent herself as a blogger who was the victim of rape culture. Objective outlets won’t run her stuff, because the moment they do, someone’s going to dump a whole bunch of other examples of her fraudulent style.

            1. One would be amazed at how forgiving feminism is of telling falsehoods. So many members of that movement discredited themselves during the Duke Lacrosse fiasco. Somehow, a lot of them are still taken seriously. Amanda Marcotte still rights for Slate. Who knows what will be possible five years from now when all the facts have been forgotten, maybe Erdely will claim it was a conspiracy, and some idiots will believe her?

    2. Yeah, that was a weird way to kick off this piece.

  10. “THIS culture that doesn’t care much for women”

    Where in the fuck do these people live. I don’t see anyone sporting a “Dad” tatoo. Who are these $20k weddings for? It’s not for the dude, I guarantee that. How many daughters and granddaughters in this country are treated like royalty by dads and granddads? Is Oprah a man? No wonder these people are always so sure that they’re right, if the facts don’t fit, just lie about them.

    1. “”THIS culture that doesn’t care much for women””

      Why do I see this in my minds eye?

      Patriarchy

      1. Quick. Somebody buy her a pony!

  11. Rape portrayals in media reflect the fears of affluent, mostly white women. UVA/Rolling Stone caused a real stir because the “victim” was everywomen if everywomen were an upper-middle class white woman attending a near ivy school.

    Most rape victims are typically poor and unprotected and their rapists are known to them. That’s super icky. Not dramatic like being an innocent immigrant sex slave or an upwardly mobil white girl.

    1. I think you’re spot on about this. The media, activist and academic classes (nearly all college graduates) are obsessed with the relatively smaller problems that resonate with their experiences and fears.

      1. Why, it’s almost as if their discussion of rape is only tangentally related to rape, and not a power trip.

      2. Why, it’s almost as if their discussion of rape is only tangentally related to rape, and not a power trip.

    2. What’s sad is that all these liers who make up such obvious tripe actually do more to numb people to real trafficking. Every story they make up brings into the doubt every true story of sex trafficking. They should be ashamed of themselves although I know they have no shame. Girls ate kidnapped and held in houses where they are sold for sex. That does happen for real. Of course now if any of these girls come forward there is that doubt bought about by these stories. Seems to me like the truth is horrible enough.

      1. HBO aired a series that followed the lives of street prostitutes in places like NYC and AC. Once these women began talking they’d tell some super fucked up stories of abuse and violence.

        Problem is they’re gross street whores – poorly educated and “dirty”. Not the kind of women other women sympathize with.

        Feminists are all about women until those women are icky, stupid, self-destructive whores – then not so much.

        1. Well, not exactly. It is okay with feminists if you’re an icky, stupid, self-destructive whore as long as you’re an affluent one (see Lena Dunham). Then your avant-guard. If you’re poor you’re just a whore.

          1. In fairness I think some number of self described feminists are active in organizations and ‘campaigns’ which chiefly aim to help such women in those circumstances.

            1. A lot of then unfortunately cannot put their desire to punish the johns over that of helping the women. I just think they subconsciously refuse to see that the further they force the sex business i to the darkness due to going after the johns, the harder it is to have access to help the women who don’t want to be in that situation.

              1. They don’t want the “appearance” of condonence as if anyone involved gives a rats ass what they think about them.

            2. You have a point Bo, but you are using the same word to refer to actual feminists, whom we all support, and Marxist liars masquerading as feminists.

              1. I think the many feminists who align with Marxism make a tragically stupid mistake. They see that the Western nations they lived in had some truly awful laws regarding women at the same time that they celebrated capitalism and limited government and conclude that the latter was responsible for the former. Of course non capitalist non Western nations found women usually in a worse position!

                Betting on statist philosophies like Marxism which put the ‘common good’ ahead of liberty is a foolish bet. Once those in charge decide the common good demands, for example as Stalin did because he wanted population growth, more traditional roles for women then that’s what they’ll get.

                1. I think the many feminists who align with Marxism make a tragically stupid mistake. They see that the Western nations they lived in had some truly awful laws regarding women at the same time that they celebrated capitalism and limited government and conclude that the latter was responsible for the former.

                  Or the people involved are power seekers who find a particular interpretation of feminism an exceedingly useful tool to acquire power. If fundamentalists Christianity still had the moral and intellectual currency to control the dialog, most of them would be screaming fire and brimstone.

        2. I remember seeing a lockup or something where this girl who was borderline mentally retarded. She was a prostitute who was talked into helping a john score some drugs. The john was a cop who busted her on drug charges instead of prostitutioj so she received a lengthy sentance. Listening to her talk about missing her kids was heartbreaking. All because she was set up by some pig.

        3. “Our bodies, our choices”, until your choice is to sell sex. Or work at Hooters.

          1. “Our bodies, our choices”, and other people’s wallets.

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  14. OT =

    – Drunk Hipsters turn public street into private dance party on New Years Eve; dancers decide when told to “move along” that Police Oppression Must Be Protested; when the most aggressive people are arrested, the predictable outcome is then treated as Moral Outrage – drunkenly start chanting “i can’t breathe”

    The combination of juvenile instigation, then hyperbolic moral outrage (“You stepped on his glasses!!”) is something i think is unique to this generation. Hippies at least understood how to let the other people ‘be the dicks’.

    1. They finally found a group that makes me sympathetic to police, NYPD no less, and wish they had cracked some heads.

    2. Hippies at least understood how to let the other people ‘be the dicks’.

      They are remembered that way because their instigations have long since been covered up or minimized.

      Kent State is probably the grandest shining example of hippies instigating violence and then crying foul at the result.

  15. I’m getting really tired of hearing about all this “victim blaming”. Acknowledging that certain risk management actions can prevent crimes is not equivalent to blaming the victim.

    Let’s say you’re a new college student in a new town, and you hear about a murdered student off-campus. Your friend who’s lived there for a few years says, “Yeah, that’s a really bad part of town. You don’t want to go there walking around after midnight alone like that, unless something changes over there.”

    Do you conclude that your friend is offering helpful advice that could actually save your life? Or do you bizarrely conclude that, if push comes to shove, your friend would say, “Why yes, it’s the victim’s fault he was murdered over there. Not the actual murderer?”

    Do we really need the thought police to come in and clamp down on that, making sure that no one knows where the bad neighborhoods are? That sounds like a great way to help potential victims.

    It’s such a ridiculous argument that I don’t get the purpose, unless they demand so much victimhood to the extent that they want to forgo any risk management, because that’s just too unfair, given the injustice of reality and all.

    1. “It’s such a ridiculous argument that I don’t get the purpose, unless they demand so much victimhood to the extent that they want to forgo any risk management,”

      Your hypothetical example is actually a real thing

      Someone tried to make ‘an app’ to help people avoid ‘sketchy neighborhoods’.

      “Uh oh”, says liberal media!

      “Even if we put aside the complex relations of social power that are sure to play out in SketchFactor, it’s core flaw is how fundamentally unconstructive it is. Since when is straight-up avoiding the “Other” a good way to breed understanding, empathy, and eventually a safe space?…coding and couching stereotype in a sanitized digital environ is an unsettling trend, that threatens to further entrench the already deep divide of social inequality in America.

      …At best, SketchFactor is an invitation for a frank and public discussion about the intersection of race, class, technology, and privilege. At worst, it will be a tool to shore up the largely invisible forces of digitized prejudice.”

      1. Since when is straight-up avoiding the “Other” a good way to breed understanding, empathy, and eventually a safe space?.

        The point is to avoid getting killed, not to “breed understanding, empathy, and eventually a safe space.

        You don’t make a dangerous place safe by never talking about how dangerous it is.

      2. I remember that. Then some reporters got robbed while working on a story about the app at one of it’s sketchy neighborhoods.
        http://dailycaller.com/2014/08…..app-video/

        1. lol

          did getting robbed of tens of thousands of dollars worth of stuff help foster “a frank and public discussion about the intersection of race, class, technology, and privilege”, you think?

  16. In their own words =

    Everything Wrong with Feminism in 2014

    also = is there a thing where people develop a ‘Canadian accent’ when they become Feminist? Its almost ‘Moynihan-ish’ in its linguistic-affectation inscrutability. can’t. quite. place. it.

    1. *footnote =yes, the source video there WAS in fact, a bunch of Canadian feminists. Duh.

  17. Where in this narrative is Hannah Graham and Jesse Matthews Jr. ?
    Surely, if policies had been in place that documented Matthews’ previous allegations, schools and law enforcement, might have seen a
    pattern that would have had this person under some sort of surveillance.

    This is a good article Noah, and you touched on all the points that make this human issue so difficult for society to get a handle on.

    As for Rolling Stone, they damaged more than their (impeccable)
    reputation. Hint-You will always find a (kooky)person who will fabricate anything to be on camera, or on print if you look hard enough.

    Seems to me, there is very little investigative journalism these days that doesn’t heavily rely on social media to be the ultimate barometer of interest. And let’s be honest, the audience keeps getting tougher by the day. At some point, I’m going to have to get a twitter account so I can catch the latest developing stories. Oh well, I’ve got cable, same difference.

    1. ” their (impeccable)
      reputation.”

      Joke? Not-a-Joke? I can’t tell.

  18. This whole thing played out just months ago with the Somaly Mam/Nicholas Kristof sex trafficking rape scandal. And with “Sex Trafficking hysteria” in general.
    Not only did Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times write many fake made up stories about “Somaly Mam” and sex trafficking he also promote it, and wrote books, made documentaries and did marketing for her.
    Somaly Mam and Nicholas Kristof should have lawsuits filed against them for committing fraud and stealing money from the public by providing the public with false sex trafficking horror stories that were lies to send money to the Somaly Mam and Afesip charities. These charities then committed human trafficking themselves by forcing women and girls to stay in their (rescue) centers against their will and to lie about being forced into sex trafficking to the western media and donors.
    Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times newspaper appeared with Somaly Mam at many fund raising events. He acted as her press, marketing and celebrity agent. Writing books and making documentaries about her. It seemed like Kristof was working for Somaly Mam. Was he getting a kick-back from her? Why was he doing all this work for her? How much money did Nicholas Kristof make from Somaly Mam?
    And guess what? Somaly Mam continues to make millions of dollars off of her lies with her new anti-sex trafficking NGO. Nicholas Kristof was never fired and continues to make millions off of lies.
    https://bebopper76.wordpress.com/

  19. If the truth doesn’t support your agenda, have the truth adapt to your agenda. refine “Sexual Violence”.

    Example:
    My estimate, (and I invite yours) is, in the aggregate there are greater than 2 acts of sexual violence per female student per year, at the University of Michigan. This is based on their improved definition.

    For details go to http://hr.umich.edu/stopabuse/…..tions.html
    and search for the university’s definition of “sexual violence”.

    As you can see, given the definition, false accusations are practically impossible.

    What is your estimate?

    1. @KyzerS
      From the link you provided

      Sexual violence
      Examples of sexual violence include: discounting the partner’s feelings regarding sex; criticizing the partner sexually; touching the partner sexually in inappropriate and uncomfortable ways; withholding sex and affection; always demanding sex; forcing partner to strip as a form of humiliation (maybe in front of children), to witness sexual acts, to participate in uncomfortable sex or sex after an episode of violence, to have sex with other people; and using objects and/or weapons to hurt during sex or threats to back up demands for sex.”

      This more than a bit unbelievable.

      Have your feelings regarding sex been discounted? Call the rape hotline!

      Has your sexuality been criticized? Call the rape hotline!

      Has your partner WITHHELD SEX? Call the rape hotline!

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  23. I just realized I am getting old. The number of future sexual partners i shall sleep with going forward is pretty small and getting smaller every day and none of those women will likely be a bat shit insane feminist who will be accusing me of rape after the fact.

    I really need to stop caring about this garbage.

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