Americans Want Action Against ISIS…

...but do not expect quick, easy success

reason infographic

Comments

[Mark22]

Americans also want free health care and low taxes, children that are all smarter than average, and being able to eat like a pig without getting fat. Just because people want something doesn't mean it's reasonable.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

66% of Americans are morons.

What, exactly, do they think airstrikes are going to accomplish? Do they even have an objective in mind or do they think bombing people is an objective in and of itself? Much like throwing money at our education system has improved the system.

Half the people are below median intelligence.

[Ted S.]

Do they even have an objective in mind or do they think bombing people is an objective in and of itself?

Lisa Simpson, with a horrified look at one of Nelson Muntz's posters: Nuke the whales!?

Nelson Muntz: Gotta nuke something.

[Suthenboy]

"Half the people are below median intelligence."

I keep hearing that. The other half that are above median intelligence, by my estimate, make up 1% or so of the population.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

*slow clap*

[wadair]

It's a funny looking bell with a really long tail on the right-hand side.

[Old Man With Candy]

When you think about it, that must be true. There's a hard wall at zero, but unlimited at the right side.

[Mark22]

Yeah, though that's more of a reflection of a poorly chosen scale than reality. It's social science research; don't expect too much logic or consistency.

[Cytotoxic]

What, exactly, do they think airstrikes are going to accomplish?

They will weaken ISIS allowing anti-ISIS forces to gain victory. This is exactly what's happening in many areas. Sorry to ruin your narrative with pesky facts.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

... allowing anti-ISIS forces to gain victory.

They may be anti-ISIS, but that doesn't necessarily make them pro-America. I'm sure we'll have to airstrike the new guys too, at some point.

Merry Christmas to all my libertarian pals! A lump of coal to you all!

[Cytotoxic]

The Kurds are as pro-America as you can get. The Iraqis are...less so but they will be in no position to challenge their betters. Either way, better than a caliphate.

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|12.25.14 @ 3:52PM|#
..."Either way, better than a caliphate."

Because you say so?

[wareagle]

Because you say so?

the status quo does not appear to be working and a caliphate hardly seems an improvement. Can't say I favor air strikes as some end-all, be-all but what's happening isn't good.

[JeremyR]

Are you seriously suggesting an ISIS led caliphate is a good thing?

I swear, Libertarians can make Chomsky look rational when it comes to foreign policy.

[Sevo]

JeremyR|12.25.14 @ 6:34PM|#
"Are you seriously suggesting an ISIS led caliphate is a good thing?"

Are you seriously saying you know a better solution?
I swear, Statists can make Cheney look like a genius when it comes to foreign policy.

[Agammamon]

Are you seriously saying you know a better solution?

Yes - constant, low-level infighting between factions is better than a unified caliphate. Both for us and the people under the thumb of the caliph.

'Peace at any cost' is a bad policy.

[Sevo]

Agammamon|12.25.14 @ 9:42PM|#
"'Peace at any cost' is a bad policy."

You seem entirely too casual with the lives of others.
I'll pass.

[Agammamon]

You misunderstand me - I don't think we should be involved here.

But life under the Islamic Caliphate that ISIS is attempting to establish is going to be, effectively, slavery. Like North Korean levels of slavery.

So, while *I* don't think we should have gotten involved, I can't say that the people in the area fighting against ISIS are wrong either. And I think there's a decent argument for assisting a group like YPG in their fight to prevent this.

All-in-all, this is a different situation than the idiocy of, say, our intervention in Lybia.

[Sevo]

"All-in-all, this is a different situation than the idiocy of, say, our intervention in Lybia."

As I see it, none of us posting here has any ability to make that claim. Every time we have promoted one side or the other in the middle east, it has come back to bite us.
I compare it to the 'knowledge problem' that makes central planning of an economy an iron-clad cinch to screw it up; we do not have the knowledge to make that claim. And I'm not willing to commit US treasure in the hopes of a lucky dice role.
Oh, and see below for the 'proof of success'; the forces are "getting close" to capturing one town. Big whoop; MacArthur produced better lies to the press.
How 'bout Cyto get the Canukistans to take over?

[Ted S.]

Justin Bieber for caliph? Sounds like a good plan.

[Sevo]

And Cyto as foreign minister!

[Cytotoxic]

Every time we have promoted one side or the other in the middle east, it has come back to bite us.

This is myopic nonsense.

I compare it to the 'knowledge problem' that makes central planning of an economy an iron-clad cinch to screw it up; we do not have the knowledge to make that claim.

Completely inapt comparison. Worthless. Knowledge is wasted on someone like you.

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|12.26.14 @ 12:31AM|#
..."Completely inapt comparison. Worthless. Knowledge is wasted on someone like you."

And strangely, when you are asked for knowledge and cites, you somehow can't deliver.
So I'll take that comment under advisement.

[Cytotoxic]

I did cite see blow. Use that scroll wheel better than your mind.

[juris imprudent]

The Kurds you say - the ones we keep fucking out of their own country because if we did that it would piss the Turks off no end?

I'm drunk, but in the morning you'll still be a fucking idiot.

[Cytotoxic]

"We"? Who the fuck us we? Speak for yourself you fucking idiot. And learn to focus on point.

[Agammamon]

As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Cytotoxic here - these airstrikes *are* working.

I can at least retain some shred of self-regard because we disagree on whether or not we should be doing them (I don't think ISIS is a threat to us), but what we *are* doing is effective in giving the YPG an edge against ISIS.

ISIS is mainly a bunch of guys in trucks, driving to a village, shooting the place up, the racing on to the next. They have little concept of how effective air power is and when they actually dug in for a fight, got slaughtered by our strikes.

I *suppose* you could justify this in that its actually a rare, *real* humanitarian intervention between a horrible group (ISIS) and an actually decent group (YPG) that has the added benefit of tying ISIS up in this fight, depleting their resources, and making it ever more difficult for them to even attempt to be a nuisance to up.

Still not our fight though.

[Sevo]

Agammamon|12.25.14 @ 9:40PM|#
"As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Cytotoxic here - these airstrikes *are* working."

I'm still waiting for some cites and a definition of what "working' means.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

but what we *are* doing is effective in giving the YPG an edge against ISIS.

To what end?

[Cytotoxic]

Turning ISIS back into just another Islamist insurgency like the gazillion others in that area. Secondarily fostering the creation of Kurdistan.

This is our fight, like it or not. ISIS is the scum of the Earth and they hate us for our freedoms and want to do violence to us for it. The last time we let an Islamic state exist was in 1979 and we are still bleeding for it. We've sacrificed on the alter of peacenazi dogmatism.

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|12.26.14 @ 12:34AM|#
"This is our fight, like it or not."

Is that a turd in your pocket, or are you just an ignoramus?

[Francisco d'Anconia]

they hate us for our freedoms

You, are not us. Shut the fuck up about matters that don't concern you. Not only are you an immoral retard, but you are an immoral retard with the resources belonging to others.

Our?

Come south and man a gun. Pussy.

[Cytotoxic]

Is there...some kind of point in this mess of vitriol? Do you always get this incoherent and butthurt when you lose a debate?

[Old Man With Candy]

Let me ask the question a different way. You've asserted that this is "our fight." Can you explain why? Beyond the killings of a few reckless people who decided voluntarily to travel 8,000 miles to wander around a dangerous shithole?

[Bgoptmst]

You comparingn ISIS to Iran is silly for so many reasons unless you are trying to say that US intervention led to the rise of both.

We can bomb and kill ISIS, and we an arm the rebels, but then what? We then have to fight Asad or let the status quo remain. If we topple Asad we have Libya. If we let Asad stay in power we will have spent billions and countless lives to maintain the status quo.

I know you don't understand the ME, because your Western mind can't. Things like religion and tribal politics are real to them.

[juris imprudent]

Cytotoxic|12.26.14 @ 12:32AM|#

"We"? Who the fuck us we? Speak for yourself you fucking idiot. And learn to focus on point.

This is our fight

See. I'm sober today, and you are still a fucking idiot.

Damn shame you can't act like a real Canadian - the ones that are excessively polite and reasonably intelligent. It is almost like you are an Anglophone Quebecois.

[Mark22]

The Kurds are as pro-America as you can get.

For now.

Either way, better than a caliphate.

Better for who? What business of ours is it?

[Mass]

It's foolhardy to believe the U.S. can adequately vet any of the so-called "moderate" rebels it is arming. And aside from that, it's outright ignorant to not realize that IS is the result of years of bad American policy decisions. Oh, and show me where in the constitution any of these U.S. military actions are permitted.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Cytotoxic, you really know fuck-all about military strategy.

[darius404]

Cytotoxic knows fuck-all about anything.

[Cdr Lytton]

Cytotoxic's military knowledge is matched only by his Americaness.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Thankfully we have Obama and Bush before him who also studied military strategy from the book of "fuck-all".

[Cytotoxic]

You're clearly really butthurt about getting pwnd by a Canadian nobody over this whole ISIS thing. Better get used to it.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Yeah that's it. I'm pawned by someone who has absolutely no concept about the application of national power.

You're a fucking moron.

US involvement in someone else's civil war will lead to less stability in the region. And a higher probability of being attacked. Who runs the shithole called Iraq is not a national security interest of the US. And you, Cytotoxic, as a Canadian, have no dog in the fight.

[Cytotoxic]

US involvement in someone else's civil war will lead to less stability in the region.

Dogmatism.

And a higher probability of being attacked.

More dogmatism.

Who runs the shithole called Iraq is not a national security interest of the US.

I'm not really concerned with the Iraqi government. I am only concerned with putting ISIS down.

And you, Cytotoxic, as a Canadian, have no dog in the fight.

Gotta get that collectivism on! Actually, Canada's air force is bombing targets in Iraq right now. Further, ISIS hates my freedoms too. My dog is fighting in this fight.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Yeah. The Canadian AF. You're a joke, Cytotoxic. While I respect the hell out of your Air Force, Canada's impact is like a flea on a dog's ass.

As is ISIS.

[Cytotoxic]

I'd ask you to substantiate that, but what's the point? You're immune to real-world evidence.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

You have 72 F-18s. How many are over there? A squadron? Two?

Please. Thanks for the thought, but...

[Bgoptmst]

I think they sent 6.

[Mark22]

Gotta get that collectivism on! Actually, Canada's air force is bombing targets in Iraq right now. Further, ISIS hates my freedoms too. My dog is fighting in this fight.

It is hardly surprising that "foreign agents" like you have objectives that don't have the best interests of Americans at heart.

Of course, it's desirable from the point of view of Canadians for the US to get involved: it lowers your costs and lets you share the risk. That doesn't make it a good idea for the US.

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|12.25.14 @ 3:22PM|#
..."This is exactly what's happening in many areas. Sorry to ruin your narrative with pesky facts."

And I'll bet you have some cite for those "FACTS", right?

[Cytotoxic]

See below.

[Hyperion]

You're being too nice by saying only half the people are below median intelligence. That number may have once been true, but government intervention has made sure that the number is more like 80%. More useful idiots are useful

[darius404]

Um, you know what the word "medium" means in math, right? I think you should rephrase your thought.

[darius404]

Dang it *median

[Hyperion]

Umm, yes, I know what it means. But is median intelligence a measure of humans alive today, or for recorded history? I was basing my assessment on the latter. No one was specific as to which 'median' we are referring to.

[Carl ?s the level]

It was obvious.

[Sevo]

Francisco d'Anconia|12.25.14 @ 2:18PM|#
"66% of Americans are morons."

Maybe, but this article says nothing to tell you that.
Let's say I ask you: "Would you like the US to reduce the conflict in the middle east, yes or no?"
Similarly, when O-care was being weaseled to the voting public, we got results from polls that asked: "Would you prefer everyone have access to medical care, yes or no?" Well, of course, I'd prefer that!

[The artist known Dunphy]

Perfect examOle of how ideologues are all the same, whether rad gem or snticop bigot

One very common similar theme, the 'dumb merikunS' thang.
'If they actually understood the things I know because I am so much smarter they would agree with me'

The reasonoids mantra

Cynicism is bad enoUgh

amazes me that they are just EXACTLY the same as progs when it comes to their disdain for the wonderful American people

So sad 🙁

[Mark22]

amazes me that they are just EXACTLY the same as progs when it comes to their disdain for the wonderful American people

Well, no, there is a crucial difference: progressives want to impose policies on people and force them to do things against their will, libertarians don't.

The question that was asked here is effectively: "Do you want to force other people to pay for, and do you want to force other people to risk their lives in, military action against ISIS."

From a libertarian point of view, the question that should have been asked is: "Do you want to pay for, and do you want to risk your life in, military action against ISIS?"

So sad 🙁

Well, Dunpy, you should know: you are not a libertarian, you are a confused progressive.

[Redmanfms]

dumpster 1.0 was vaguely libertarianish on drugs, but a full-on cop fellator.

dumpster 2.0 is Tulpa. He, like his handler, is a police state utilitarian.

[Ted S.]

Is this what all Americans want, or just Millennials?

[Suthenboy]

I take issue with the results of this poll.

Americans want someone other than themselves to take action against ISIS. I don't expect very many supporters of that action to be grabbing their toothbrushes, rifles and packing extra socks.

[Cytotoxic]

Well that is what the US military is for.

[LarryA]

"They volunteered!"

[juris imprudent]

On behalf of that military, may I say fuck you in your mendacious, duplicitous ass you slimeball sack of chickenhawk shit.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Amen!

[Cdr Lytton]

slimeball sack of chickenpoutinehawk shit

[Cytotoxic]

Whatever. I'm sure your co-workers badly need you to speak for them. And I'm still right and you're still wrong.

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|12.26.14 @ 12:37AM|#
"And I'm still right and you're still wrong."

You're still an ignoramus and have yet to be right about anything.

[Cytotoxic]

I have cited facts and real evidence while you and your ilk consistently don't. Yes, clearly I'm the ignoramus.

[Mark22]

The part you're missing is that whether bombing ISIS is effective is irrelevant to the question of whether it is right and justifiable.

[Bgoptmst]

I promise you I guve zero fucks about your Canadian way of life. I can take a poll for on Monday, but I'm willing to bet no one else gives a shit either.

Okay, the loose morals of your women is always appreciated. I guess I gave exactly (1) fuck.

[mauricegirodias]

But what do millenials think?

[Eggs Benedict Cumberbund]

We are already "acting" against ISIS. I've seen Apache TADS/PNVS footage of them supporting ground troops.

[Cytotoxic]

Private contractors on the ground too, maybe?

[Cytotoxic]

ISIS loses more ground and fighters; peacenazis and Reason narratives hardest hit.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/1.....sil-rages/

[Acosmist]

"Peacenazis"

I don't know whose straw man of a neocon Cyto is, but the joke has run its course, guys.

[Hyperion]

It isn't even the objective of the US government to eliminate the terrorists.

Even if there's some big victory and it looks like they are close to being wiped out, they'll later emerge again, as if by magic, fully funded and with US supplied weapons, out of nowhere, more of a threat than anything we've ever seen before.

I wonder how that keeps happening?

[Ted S.]

I blame the peacenazis.

Either that, or Cleveland is letting us down again.

[juris imprudent]

Cleveland Peacenazis - good band name.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I hate Illinois Peacenazis.

[Sevo]

We don't have any Chicago Peacenazis, just Chicago confusniks.

[Old Man With Candy]

Fuck you, FdA, we have done nothing to earn your incoherent hatred. We Illinois Peacenazis have even allied in the fight against deep dish being called "pizza."

[Cytotoxic]

I wonder how that keeps happening?

It happens because Obama and McCain are idiots who give guns to the 'good' rebels who are either not good or just incompetent. They get their asses kicked and the weapons end up in the hands of Nusra or ISIS. This is exactly what happened in Idlib.

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|12.26.14 @ 12:38AM|#
"It happens because Obama and McCain are idiots who give guns to the 'good' rebels who are either not good or just incompetent."

And shit-pile Cyto knows exactly who to hand them to.
Fuck off.

[Cytotoxic]

The fuck? What are you talking about? You shouldn't post while drunk. Or maybe ever.

[Sevo]

From the link:

"The United States continue to launch air strikes against ISIL positions in Iraq as Kurdish Peshmerga forces move closer to Sinjar town and the ISIL stronghold of Mosul."

I'm sure they'll capture it in two years.

[Cytotoxic]

They already captured it. I read up on these things because I value knowledge. You and FDA and JI value dogmatism, and thus are ignorant.

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|12.26.14 @ 12:39AM|#
"They already captured it."

And somehow the best you can offer is a link saying they'll do so sometime soon?
What a fucking idiot!

[Cytotoxic]

http://news.google.com/news/ur.....sil-rages/

PWND

[Contrarian P]

How does posting a link to a story that says they haven't captured the town yet any kind of "PWND"? You said they captured the town, then posted a link that said they didn't. Your link disproves your claim.

[juris imprudent]

Cytotoxic reminds me of a certain progressive I've debated in the past. He too uses that trick of posting a link that usually contradicts his point as PROOF of his point.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

and thus are ignorant.

Says the man with ZERO experience or training in anything resembling military strategy. Christ, you are a deluded fuck. We spent 10 fucking years occupying and trying to establish a government compatible with US interests with the full force of the US military. It failed miserably. And now you think providing air support for a bunch of shitbags is going to accomplish what the entire military might of the US government could not?

You are a fucking imbecile.

[Cytotoxic]

Says the man with ZERO experience or training in anything resembling military strategy.

MUG ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY!

Breaking ISIS =/= nation-building. You dumb shit. Clearly the USAF or whatever branch you belong to wasted its resources on you. That you're a member demonstrates the US military is over-funded and over-manned.

Aren't you the area genius who's pumping for the F-35?

[Francisco d'Anconia]

And yours is an argument from ignorance.

[Cytotoxic]

I'd ask what I'm ignorant of, but what's the point? You are clearly immune to real-world evidence.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I'm clearly immune to your ignorance.

Sure the USAF can help win battles. But you are too fucking stupid to realize that winning battles doesn't win wars.

Did you sleep through Vietnam, you ignorant fuck?

The Iraqis place no value upon a peaceful democracy. No amount of bombs is going to change their minds. They will be a shithole until they decide they no longer want to be. And there isn't a fucking thing the US can do about it, short of eradicating everyone who lives there.

Vietnam, motherfucker. Ever heard of it? Ever study the lessons learned from it? Apparently not.

[Bgoptmst]

Iraq is still playing the Shia/Sunni game. The hold up on a national gaurd (Sunni in nature) is a clear example. Baghdad even stopped paying the police in Mosul (recently started again).

We can bomb the fuck out of any place we want. The end result is not some wonderland for democracy. ISIS exist because we invaded a perfectly fine shithole country and made it worse. Give Afghanistan a few years and we'll be having the same type of discussion.

[juris imprudent]

And Libya makes a tri-fecta!

[Mark22]

First, the libertarian position is not about utility, it's about rights and justice. So whether the policy is effective is irrelevant.

In any case, history suggests that it is unlikely that the policy is irrelevant. Time and again we have backed groups with genuine "good guy" credentials, who have then themselves turned into corrupt and destructive regimes over time, or simply have been viewed as illegitimate by the people. So, the rebels-du-jour winning some battles actually shows nothing.

[jenniferjlopez1989]

my neighbor's step-aunt makes $80 an hour on the internet . She has been laid off for five months but last month her payment was $12901 just working on the internet for a few hours.
website here........
???????? http://www.paygazette.com

[pehtclaudell]

until I looked at the draft that said $8885 , I have faith ...that...my brother woz like truley erning money part-time on their apple labtop. . there sisters neighbour has been doing this for under 21 months and recently took care of the mortgage on there apartment and bourt a great Honda NSX . this link........

http://www.Jobs-spot.com

[AlmightyJB]

Isis Isis Baby

[Smilin' Joe Fission]

+1 Vanilla Isis

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Based on this country classic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmn7Cg9GJDc

[Cdr Lytton]

The Sunni/Shia split is based on dings?

[Remnant Psyche]

The guys at No Agenda beat you to that one.

[Almanian!]

Merry fucking Christmas, ISIS!

*drops The Big One?*

[juris imprudent]

I gotchyer Big One.

[Gene]

Perfect!!

[Rich]

The average estimate for how long the current military action would take? Two years.

And the average estimate for Iraq? Afghanistan? Korea?

[Sevo]

Two years!

[Sevo]

It's like the "20 minutes" you wait in a restaurant for your table. Or and NBA "1 minute left in the game!"

[Warrren]

I had a cat named Boots once. But he's dead and buried. So does Boots' in the ground work?

[Ted S.]

Boots in the ground
Boots in the ground
Lookin like a fool
With your boots in the ground.

[unperson]

that is because consent has already been manufactured via CorpGovMedia.

propaganda, babies. It dominates this ecosystem.

[Hyperion]

Millenials New Years Resolution:

I want to be cool. I want to be a rebel.

But I can't.

Because the government told me that I need to suck statist dick, and I don't know any better cause I'm still on my parents Obamacare plan.

So, I'll just continue being a progressive.

/the millenials.

Sorry, Reason.

[Sevo]

"I want to be cool. I want to be a rebel."

Which is the reason I'm wearing the same clothes with the same label as everyone else, reading the same web sites as everyone else, using the same apps as everyone else, getting a tat at the same tat-studio as everyone else!
I'm a REBEL (like everyone else)!

[Cytotoxic]

ITT, peacenazis get dominated then butthurt.

Cytotoxic: 1 Peacenazi Dogmatists: PWND

Merry Christmas.

[Sevo]

Cytotoxic|12.26.14 @ 12:40AM|#
"ITT, peacenazis get dominated then butthurt."
Uh, did you confuse your stupidity with something other than that?

"Cytotoxic: 1 Peacenazi Dogmatists: PWND"
You seem to think that most of those who post here are dumb enough to accept your stupidity as something of value. And further, stupid enough to presume you 'score' game points by posting such stupidity.
Hint: Neither is true. Please post when you have other than a war boner.

[Cytotoxic]

Man, there hasn't been such a lopsided smackdown since the 1967 war. I'm playing Israel, and you dumb asses are playing as the Arabs. You talk a lot but you can't so much as lay a glove on me.

Further, you seem really grumpy, and I think I know why. When the ISIS campaign succeeds as it probably will, it will be a vindication to Rand Paul and those heretics who supported his call on ISIS. It will open up a realist alternative to noninterventionist dogma. This is the death knell to noninteventionists. They can't compete. They thought they had something going on and now, it's over. They go back to the wastelands. You guys are like the modern Keynesians -you are terrified of anyone and any action that does not conform to you dogma, because once it works it all starts caving in.

[Contrarian P]

I haven't seen a "lopsided smackdown", unless you think posting links that say exactly the opposite of what you say is somehow a major victory.

Until the situation with ISIS finally plays out, it's hard to say for sure what the final outcome will be, but I have yet to see you offer a definitive explanation of what the United States stands to gain out of spending billions of dollars in this effort, nor have I seen you illustrate how this venture is different than Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and dozens of other places where the United States has made the situation worse through intervention. While I'm at it, I haven't seen a single reason why you, a Canadian, has any business as to what America should do.

[Cytotoxic]

ISIS showing signs of internal non-cohesion.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/mi.....m-1.633648

[Acosmist]

http://www.euronews.com/2014/1.....sil-rages/

Just posting the evidence you wanted to say said the opposite of what it said.

[Brochettaward]

The article itself is behind a wall, but I fail to see how their growing disarray supports your position of how dangerous they are. Unless you really contribute it to the American response which is kind of ridiculous.

What you're seeing is what happens when an organization like ISIS - a bunch of factions bound together by various forces - when they expand too fast and grow too large in general. They turn on each other like the cockroaches that they are.

[daniellebegum]

I have faith ...that...my mother in law woz like realy bringing home money part-time on their laptop. . there great aunt had bean doing this for under twenty one months and by now repaid the depts on there apartment and got a brand new Lexus LS400 .
find more info ------------ http://www.jobsfish.com

[Brochettaward]

I do find the narrative pushed around here that ISIS/ISIL is no threat kind of ridiculous. What the hell do you people think they are going to do if they gain control of an entire country? Live in peace and harmony? This is Al Qaeda with a country. And in this case, the other shitbags they are fighting can't be any worse, and would have to do very little to be better.

Then you have the question of why it's our fight. Well, maybe because we destabilized the country in the first place? What is the appropriate libertarian response when you mess a place up and it's not going well? Cut and run? That's not exactly an ethical position.

There are two fundamentally different questions with regards to Iraq, but I see most people here making it a simpler position. The first is whether we should have gone in initially, which is a resounding no. The second is whether once there, it's really smart or right to bail. The people here mostly don't want to move past the first question and deny culpability for what is going on now.

There shouldn't be ground troops in Iraq (simply because it wouldn't work), but sitting by and sticking your thumb up your ass while ISIS takes over the heart of the Middle East is a pretty stupid fucking idea and morally wrong.

I could buy the arguments sold here if they were more often utilitarian in nature, but they aren't. Those who are so adamant that we should stay out of it act as if they have the moral highground, as well.

[Steve G]

This is Al Qaeda with a country.

Why you gotta bring Pakistan into the discussion?!?

[Contrarian P]

What do I think they'll do if they get control of a country? Nothing at all. If they attack us or sponsor terror against us, we destroy their nation. If they don't attack us, we let their neighbors, particularly Iran, deal with them. Every problem that arises in the Middle East isn't our responsibility to fix, and quite frankly I'm mystified as to what threat this group is supposed to represent. Hell, Iran has been under the control of fanatics since the late 70s, and when have they invaded us? What terror attacks on U.S. soil did they launch?

We did destabilize the country in the first place, but that was over a decade ago. When we left it had a functioning government and a well equipped army. It's not our fault that the elected government proved to be made up of cronies and cowards or that the military dropped their U.S. supplied guns and ran at the first sign of combat. So no, I do not feel a great deal of responsibility. We were there for ten years. We gave them every tool. At a certain point the country has to succeed or fail on its own.

[Brochettaward]

So, IF they attack us (which, they would - it's their stated goal and they are affiliated with the guys who did attack us already), you are THEN going to destroy their nation...

Which do you think is more costly - supporting an air campaign now when they are still beatable, or waiting until they have a state and you have to invade that territory for a second time? You are talking about fighting for the same real estate twice in what is a far more likely hypothetical than you are making it out to be.

You realize that ISIS started off as Al Qaeda in Iraq, right? Like, their leadership core are the ones who spent the better part of a decade blowing up our soldiers? And that these were foreign fighters WE brought into that country?

Iran's 'fanatics' grew out of a different intellectual strand than ISIS and Al Qaeda. It's not an apples to apples comparison. Rather than get into the nuances of what they actually believe, we'll just look at their track record. Iran has never actually attacked outside their borders. I have no problem with Iran having a nuclear weapon (more to do with the fact that it can't be prevented in the long run)

[Brochettaward]

And you talk as if American troops just came in a decade ago, took out Saddam, and then left. That's not what we did. We destroyed their political machine, and then put people with no experience in power. Saying we left them a working government or a competent military is also a massive stretch (the two are closely related, anyhow). The Iraqi military has no morale precisely because of how little regard they have for that working government. This is why I'm against sending ground troops back, as well. That's something only Iraqis can decide.

But there's a difference between saying that Iraqis have to work some of those things out on their own and saying that America has no responsibility. It is our fight because we put them in this situation.

Your argument would be better if you just said we fucked it up once, so why trust us to get it right this time. At least that would be something I could buy instead of your fairy tale-like belief on what ISIS will be like in power and how easy it will be to get rid of them once they're there.

Stopping ISIS is a relatively cheap investment at this point compared to the future costs of doing so. Hopefully it's the final time we're paying for Bush's foreign policy mistakes.

[Old Man With Candy]

And you talk as if American troops just came in a decade ago, took out Saddam, and then left.

That was Bush's mistake right there. The "Pottery Brn" thing was insanely ridiculous.

[Michael S. Langston]

Mostly agree, but I think this is demonstrably wrong:

Iran has never actually attacked outside their borders.

I believe they are a known sponsor of certain terrorist groups in other ME countries, levers they use whenever they feel they need to reduce scrutiny of whatever it is they are doing.

And while I agree Iran, with or without a nuke, doesn't pose a real, direct threat to the US,I think this:

I have no problem with Iran having a nuclear weapon

Is shortsighted considering the active threat they could and would pose to the entire region and Europe if they obtained nuclear weapons. Israel obviously being the one nation in the region with the most direct interest in ensuring Iran, with its current government, never becomes a nuclear power.
...

[Michael S. Langston]

... Continued...
But even the ME countries who are nominally friendly, along with other friendly countries such as Russia have no desire to see Iran gain nuclear weapons.

In fact, many in the region actively (though quietly) sanction actions like Israel taking out a nuclear facility being built in Syria (aka Iran's closest ally) by North Korea.

Aside from that - I agree on dealing with ISIS before they gain real power and agree we still owe it to help Iraq given the preemptive war (irregardless of whether going was the right decision).

I would only add that we also owe it to all the military due to the real sacrifice paid in blood, to do what we can to ensure their children/grand children do not have to put boots on the same ground in 30 years or whatever to fight a real war (against an entrenched ISIS with Iraqi government sized powers, resources, etc) , especially given the low cost of handing it now.

Compare it to keeping the SS ponzi scheme or pushing Obamacare, as we don't have the money. And I tend to believe it's immoral to pay for someone's healthcare today, no matter how deserving, if you are only able to do so by indebting tax payers who have not (too young to consent or vote) and cannot (not yet born) do so.

Giving them ISIS owned Iraq seems similar in that doing nothing, only delays and increases the cost of handling the problem (much like doing nothing to alter SS only delays and...).

[Michael S. Langston]

Edit... second to last paragraph, second/last sentence should end with this broad idea:

its immoral to pay for anything not required for survival, when the only way to do so is indebt people who cannot consent.

Adding... that logically, even if they were able to voice yay or may, they likely wouldn't consent.

Broadly, why would anyone ever consent if they knew a large percentage of their taxes went to paying for specious benefits only enjoyed by people in previous generations?

More specifically, on even above average income, who would willing agree to large tax increase to pay debt which allowed some to get more healthcare in the prior generation when doing so will directly impact their ability to provide for themselves and their family's healthcare?

Didn't mean to branch that far out, but this does underscore the true evil of all of this spending and those alleging, such as Obama, that the only moral path is to spend twice the revenue we bring in, should be trashed as grossly immoral given the debt they are saddling future generations with.

It's as bad as drug warriors claiming the moral high ground - as if the correct moral stance in any free country should ever be it is better, through use of armed force, to put someone in prison, than it is to let them use unsanctioned drugs (or worse even, use any non-approved drug to get high).

[sjuanita52]

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[jenniferjlopez1989]

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[sandraewilliams]

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[MSimon]

Peacemongery is more dangerous than warmongery.

[ysv38000]

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[ingra.mckee]

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