Mom Tells Therapist About Briefly Leaving Kids Alone, Shrink Calls Cops

Kyle Flood / Wikimedia Commons

A mom's 20 minute absence from home became an obsession of a Child Protective Services officer. As is often the case, the issue was not whether anything bad happened to kids while mom was out. The sole criteria for CPS hounding this woman for two solid years seems to be that something bad could have happened.

Of course, if the mom had taken the kids with her, something bad could have happened to them on the car ride, too. The number one way children die in the U.S. is as car passengers, not as kids at home getting ready for the day.

But real odds don't matter when it comes to the state deciding who is a dangerous mom. All that matters is the new notion that all decent mothers are literally at their children's side 24/7. If you trust your kids to be okay for a few minutes unsupervised and government busybodies find out… Well, take a look. Rebecca Ruiz reports on the case of Lilia Gonzalez for Mashable:

The ordeal began on a June morning when Gonzalez, then 36, awoke at 7:30 a.m., startled and groggy. Her 16-month-old son had been sick, and Gonzalez slept fitfully; her husband left earlier to start the first of his two jobs. Like most parents, Gonzalez's mind immediately settled on the day's many tasks, including taking the children to walk her four-year-old son to the bus stop. And that's when the panic surged—she had overslept and the bus had already departed.

As her eight-year-old daughter dressed for school, Gonzalez and her son rushed down the stairs from their third-floor apartment in Schaumburg, Illinois, and looked for the bus. Seeing an empty street, Gonzalez quickly decided to drive the two miles to school.

When she returned home after a 20-minute absence, Gonzalez found her toddler son watching television in bed and her daughter ready to attend school. She regretted impulsively leaving them alone, but felt grateful nothing tragic had happened.

The next day, Gonzalez mentioned the incident to her therapist, a clinic student who helped treat her for depression. "I did something probably stupid," Gonzalez recalls saying. Her therapist remained silent then, but a few hours later, Gonzalez's phone rang.

"I talked to my supervisor," her therapist said, "and I explained to her what you just told me, and we have to call [Department of Children and Family Services]." Gonzalez hadn't heard of the child welfare agency, but was terrified. "She started telling me that they were probably going to come and interview and probably they would take the children away."

Gee, wouldn't you love a therapist like that? You're trying to deal with depression and next thing you know, your shrink hands you over to the folks who take children away from their parents. How very therapeutic!

The laws in 48 states make therapists and other professionals—doctors, social workers, etc.—mandated reporters. If a professional has reason to suspect a child is in real danger from a truly abusive parent, it is his/her job to report the case to the authorities.

Since when is it the professional's job to snitch on a mom who confesses to one imperfect parenting moment? Only when imperfect parenting becomes illegal. Sadly, that's the moment we are in now. 

Comments

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Didn't anyone tell this woman not to talk to strangers, much less share confidences with them?

[Invisible Finger]

But these strangers are the gatekeepers to the good meds.

[Zeb]

But these strangers are the gatekeepers to the good meds.

Actually they probably aren't. For some idiotic reason that I cannot even guess at, therapists and drug prescribing psychiatrists are often not the same person.

[Acosmist]

It's so you have to schedule and pay for two different appointments to two different people. Psychiatrist says you can't get meds without talking to the therapist, therapist refers you to the psychiatrist after talking to you, they both profit from this little arrangement.

[Zeb]

It's just fucked. Even when your therapist is a psychiatrist, you get sent to another asshole to get prescriptions. How does that make any sense at all?

[Invisible Finger]

As pointed out, one is a gatekeeper to the OTHER gatekeeper.

[Jackie_Ferrara]

Therapists are not doctors. Doctors prescribe meds. There's some minor exceptions where nurses are therapists who can prescribe some meds, but generally the difference is about ten years of education.

[Zeb]

Isn't sharing confidences with them what therapists are for?

[Almanian!]

Jesus fuck me. I'm so glad my kids are all adults now. I'm starting to think I want to go looking for people like this therapist and, upon finding them, ask if they recall the derptastic episode. When they acknowledge it, I punch them in the throat, hard.

[RG]

Just remind yourself that the real war on women isn't this insanity, but rather having them pay for birth control out of pocket.

We're so far gone, it's sad.

[Blank Reg]

Last I checked this is "Reason", a more or less libertarian-oriented publication. What right have you to reach into my pocket to pay for your birth control? I dated a lot of women when I was younger. Not one of them asked me to do that. They were simply grateful to have access to birth control so easily and cheaply to begin with, as compared to their mothers...

[Butler]

No need to batter the person. Just watch the therapist until an "imperfect parenting moment" occurs and call DCF. That'll teach her how much "help" DCF is.

[croaker]

The theraputic dose of Trepanizine is 340 grains...

[methylamine]

+11 points Butler!

[methylamine]

@croaker--excellent prescription.

[Rhywun]

I can think of other ways of dealing with depression that don't involve spilling your guts to Big Brother. Fuck.

[sarcasmic]

Copious quantities of alcohol work for me.

[Certified Public Asskicker]

OMG.

*Calls CPS on Sarcasmic*

[OneOut]

You truly are being sarcastic/funny.

Alcohol makes depression worse.

Ask me, I know.

[Jensen]

Talking to Jesus?

[Ted S.]

Talking to Jesus

(Warning: may cause retching.)

[Carolynp]

Also, may cause healing...

[Product Placement]

But he hardly speaks any English.

[Pulseguy]

That is good, because he can't report you then.

A Mexican friend told me this:

"Amigo, 'Jesus loves you' is a very nice thing to hear....unless you are in a Mexican prison."

[Drake]

Beating up a therapist? I bet it's very cathartic.

[ULOST]

The-rapist. It's pretty clear who they are. But hey, keep confiding in them.

I question the stability of a woman who needed to confess leaving her children alone under those circumstances.

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

As an attorney, I have an obligation to tell authorities only if I think a crime is going to happen. And it has to be specific; no generalized behavior or hunches. If I was to tell the police my client committed a crime because I was afraid he may commit the same crime in the future, even after he told me that he thought committing the crime was stupid, I would be violating my attorney-client privilege. Why should the therapist privilege be any different? Does it have something to do with the term breaking down to "the rapist", as in "The State"?

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

And when I say obligation, I mean in the "take away my license" sense, not the moral sense.

[Brandon]

Read the article. It wasn't a therapist, it was a student at a publicly-funded clinic. This woman wasn't the client, the state was.

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

I did read the article. Usually students work under a supervisor's license. You don't lose a privilege because you're employed by the state.

[Brandon]

Still, publicly-funded. The woman wasn't paying, so she wasn't the client. She was just the benficiary of the state's omniscient generosity.

[Duke]

Brandon -- I'm a lawyer too and SBT is correct. Who's paying doesn't determine privilege. If the woman was getting counseling, she was entitled to a legal privilege. By your logic, a defendant represented by a public defender isn't entitled to an attorney-client privilege.

[Smokert5555]

It doesn't matter who's footing the bill. Conversations between patients and medical professionals should remain confidential unless there is an imminent hazard. This was not an example of an imminent hazard.

[Geoff Nathan]

At least at universities any supervisor who is told of a case of sexual misconduct ('my colleague came on to me', 'has a dirty picture on his desk' etc.) is required to report this, even if the complainer is just asking advice.
And real people have lost real jobs for not reporting, even when they were begged not to. This is what you learn in sexual harassment training. AND IT'S THE LAW.
Probably the student counsellor had been told something similar.

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

Many states have laws that require certain people, including therapists and social workers, to report "child abuse" as an exception to any privilege they hold. I'm sure it happened as you say.

[Geoff Nathan]

Teachers too. This is mentioned in the original article linked to in the H&R post.
Doesn't mean we have to like it...

[MegaloMonocle]

There are "mandatory reporters" for child abuse, which includes most health care providers. Whether this punk kid (or their supervisor) was a mandatory reporter, is, naturally, one of those little details that Reason can never be bothered to look into.

What triggers a mandatory report varies by state, but they typically require some showing of either actual or imminent harm.

[Invisible Finger]

What triggers a mandatory report varies by state,

The laws are so goddamned convoluted, it usually just means "I'll report everything so my ass is covered."

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

Here's Illinois' mandatory reporter policy: http://www.state.il.us/dcfs/do.....Manual.pdf

[Invisible Finger]

The entire cover page is loaded with pedophiles in uniform.

[Invisible Finger]

Note that the very first set of bullet points does NOT point out whether ALL or just ONE of the criteria must be met.

So:

"There is a specific incident of abuse or
neglect"

fits this case.

Seems like Reason is safely not looking into that detail this time.

[mpercy]

Doesn't matter whether the person followed the law. The *law* itself is stupid and insufficiently capable of discerning between actual abuse and neglect and legitimate discipline and a momentary lapse of judgement during which no one was actually harmed.

[Malvolio]

Any of them? You mean, "The alleged victim is a child under the age of 18"

[Invisible Finger]

I love this bullshit:

"If this information is not readily available, the reporter should not delay a call to the hotline"

Followed to pages later by a disclaimer:

"This manual is provided as a public service by the Illinois Department of
Children and Family Services and is intended for the informational use and convenience of interested persons and should not be considered a substitute for the advice of legal counsel."

So... don't delay reporting but first delay while you consult an attorney for a few days.

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

Look how kind those state employees on the cover are. Clearly the intent behind this policy comes from the right place. The only thing to oppose is the little girl practicing medicine without a license.

[amelia]

No, they typically require "reasonable suspicion" that abuse or neglect occurred, in the past. Basically, if an average "reasonable person" would conclude, based on the information you have, that what occurred may have constituted abuse or neglect, reporting is required. Mandated reporters are specifically prohibited from investigating. When the call is made, the call center's job is to determine if it's really reportable. Sometimes they will decline to take the report.

Generally, the criteria for determining "reasonable suspicion" is deliberately vague. Authorities are more concerned about under-reporting, about overcoming the average person's natural resistance to reporting, than about over-reporting.

In California, if a child dies or suffers great bodily harm, a mandated reporter who had failed to report a "reasonable suspicion" is subject to 1 year in prison and/or a $1000 fine.

Any doctor or therapist, even a student therapist, is a mandated reporter.

[Carolynp]

Allow me to state that when I did case work, I turned in someone whose kid had a bruised face every time she came in. When I asked about it, she told me that her boyfriend had a bad temper. Turned it in. The state did...nothing. She was angry, boyfriend was angry, and they made my work awful for a while. They only give a rip about people who are worried about losing their kids. The people who should lose their kids never see any consequences for their actions.

[Zeb]

Even if leaving the house for 20 minutes is neglect, it is hardly abuse. Goddamn motherfuckers.
Most days I am very pleased not to have kids. It would be great in some ways to have some little monsters that I could teach to hate all the things I hate, but the possibility of having to face something like this is too much.

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

I know. I remember the sense of terror I felt the first time I watched my buddy's baby alone. I imagine that's what the government wants us to feel every waking second as parents.

[Smokert5555]

This is all fine and good, but this particular story didn't concern sexual harassment or child abuse. The student counselor violated the trust of the patient.

[Ken Shultz]

"The next day, Gonzalez mentioned the incident to her therapist, a clinic student who helped treat her for depression. "I did something probably stupid," Gonzalez recalls saying. Her therapist remained silent then, but a few hours later, Gonzalez's phone rang.

"I talked to my supervisor," her therapist said, "and I explained to her what you just told me, and we have to call [Department of Children and Family Services]."

The "therapist" was a student, and her supervisor may well be reacting to the law. There may be a problem with the law itself, here. It's possible that a good therapist and supervisor following the law would have the same result.

It may be that this is what the law was intended to do. Sometimes laws stink, and they need to be repealed.

[Ken Shultz]

This time with the link:

http://mashable.com/2014/09/24.....parenting/

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

Yep, that's what the law was intended to do. In Illinois there's an exception to therapist privilege in the case of suspected child abuse. The student was acting under her supervisor's license as an agent.

[BFawlty]

It takes a village.

[Ted S.]

Because fuck you that's why.

Or because the lawyers in the legislature exempted themselves from this shit?

[Sunmonocle Backwards Tophat]

In their slight defense, the attorney-client privilege is a much older common law concept than the therapist-patient privilege, which originated in the last hundred years. I highly doubt that's the motivation, though; more like the kind of person who chooses that line of work is the kind of person who thinks the government can solve problems. How many social workers become social workers because families should receive deference?

[Ted S.]

I call them anti-social workers.

[Pitana]

"The kind of person who chooses that line of work is the kind of person who thinks the government can solve problems."

I got to write this down. Absolutely true.

[Harvey_birdman]

In PA we aren't required to report if a crime is going to happen, it's discretionary with the attorney in that situation. And only in cases involving the threat of death or serious bodily injury.

[Brandon]

One of the kids was 8! That's old enough to babysit the toddler for at least an hour!

[Idle Hands]

I have friends that babysat kids up to 1

[Idle Hands]

*12 years old.

[sarcasmic]

Not in the eyes of the law.

[Ted S.]

The law, sir, is an ass.

Unfortunately, the fucking bastards have the power.

[Brandon]

The next day, Gonzalez mentioned the incident to her therapist, a clinic student who helped treat her for depression. "I did something probably stupid," Gonzalez recalls saying. Her therapist remained silent then, but a few hours later, Gonzalez's phone rang.

"I talked to my supervisor," her therapist said...

This is not a therapist, this is a social worker. Don't smear an entire profession by confusing it with one of the most fucked-up professions in existence.

[C. S. P. Schofield]

The difference between a social worker and a "therapist" is no visible to the naked eye. And that's a problem right there.

A big part of the problem is the tendency to pass laws in the hopes of preventing harm in advance. Yes, drunk drivers kill many people every year. But I have read in multiple places that over 90% of such deaths are caused by people who A) Are well over the OLD limit of .1, much less .08. and B) already have a drunk driving incident resulting in property damage on their record. But instead of really clobbering drunks who crash into people's property, we inconvenience EVERYBODY with DUI stops ?. and incidentally give police the tools to go on broad fishing expeditions.

I'm sorry for anyone whose child has been suddenly harmed out of the blue, but that doesn't give you a license to turn MY life into a police state purgatory.

And while witless officialdom is pulling stunts like this, similarly clueless cretins are doing things like taking inhalers away from public school students because of "Zero Tolerance" policies. We need to get over the idea that governments know better than we do, especially since the verdict of history appears to be "Oh, hell, no they don't!"

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Could be he's an analyst/therapist, or analrapist for short.

[amelia]

There are subspecialties in social work, including clinical social work. Licensed clinical social workers are trained therapists who can be reimbursed by insurance, just like licensed psychologists. Whether or not the training and education is worth a damn varies a lot in both professions.

[Raston Bot]

Consider it a learning moment: don't confide in the state

[pronomian]

Those of us who have adult children should go around and tell busy bodies that we constantly left our children alone, at the park, at the house, in fact both my children are latch key kids. When the authorities come over to waste their time, you just tell them, yea, that was 20 years ago. They'll probably still arrest you for something that may have happened then, or they'll call in swat, kick down your neighbor's door, shoot their dog, burn their babies, and shoot any unarmed person because they were doing what they were told to do like turn around, get ID.

[Invisible Finger]

you just tell them, yea, that was 20 years ago.

I think it's OK to tell someone you left your child alone at the park, while leaving out the fact that your child is 37 years old. If it's false positives the government wants, false positives they shall get.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Do not seek help from mental health professionals. That is apparently the lesson to be learned here.

[sarcasmic]

I learned that one long ago.

[Zeb]

Trouble is some people need to. Or need something that they can't do for themselves anyway.

But it's probably good advice for anyone with not-too-severe depression who can't afford to pay a proper, private practice person who has a fucking clue.

[Paul.]

The laws in 48 states make therapists and other professionals?doctors, social workers, etc.?mandated reporters.

You know what other society had mandated reporters?

[Horatio]

Every sideline of every football game, apparently?

[Ted S.]

The society in some shitty sci-fi book?

[croaker]

1920's Germany

[LynchPin1477]

I'm not willing to concede it was an imperfect parenting moment, because that implies there is such a thing as a perfect parenting moment. I'm not a parent myself, but I'm skeptical of that.

[Paul.]

What're you talking about... when my (ex) wife delivered my daughter and we were in the hospital for a few days due to some minor complications, my wife went awol to a local restaurant and had a few drinks and left me to take care of the newborn.

If that's not a perfect parenting moment, I don't know what is.

[anon99]

I've never wanted kids. Abstract moral objections are way down on the list of reasons, to be sure, but every time I read a CPS or drug war or other criminal justice horror story I ponder the libertarian ethics of bearing children. Why provide the state with another person to murder, maim or imprison? Is it right to bring a person into a world where shit like this is an every-day occurrence?

[ace_m82]

Create one person to bring it all down.

There's some motivation for you.

Begin by telling them how evil govt is, and then slowly show them worse and worse actions they do (as they become old enough to deal with it). Don't show the worst first (as it may be a form of child abuse to even show a child what the govt agents do to people) but slowly teach them what govt is and will do to them.

[Mencken Sense]

I think this is what I'm doing by letting the kids read H&R over my shoulder...

[Whahappan?]

Ditto.

[LynchPin1477]

This may be opening a can of worms, but...

One of the charges against administrators at Penn State in connection with the Sandusky Scandal is failure to report in their capacity as mandatory reporters. It would not surprise me at all if the fallout from that led this clinic to tell their employees to take absolutely zero chances and to report anything to the authorities, and to let them deal with it. The student and her supervisor were probably just trying to cover their asses, and I can't say I really blame them.

CPS on the other hand...

[The artist known Dunphy]

It's basic game theory

There are no negative consequences for a mandatory reporter to make a report if it is later determined that in fact the facts they were reporting did not rise to the level where a report was required

Contrarily there are severe consequences if it is later determined a mandatory reporter should have made a report but did not

Understanding the powerful influence of incentives in human behavior especially as intertwined with laws and state actions is why so many people become libertarians in the first place

When it comes to perverse incentives nobody and nothing can come close to government

[Invisible Finger]

... is why so many people become libertarians

I think you meant "... is why a few of us become libertarians."

[Raston Bot]

I will be completely and utterly shocked if the mother voluntarily meets with the narc social worker after the mandatory 2-year period by the state lapses.

[Alch]

At 8 I was getting up for my own and walking a half a mile to school everyday. My Mom left for work 2 hours before I got up.

[Eggs Benedict Cumberbund]

Another goose stepping advance toward the Progressive paradise.

[Invisible Finger]

In Gonzalez's case, a second investigation for neglect began just months after the first. She called the police to report an incident of domestic violence when her husband threw an aerosol can at her during an argument.

What is it with people calling the police for bullshit?

When you read the whole article, you start losing sympathy. Call a bureaucrat for help and you get bureaucracy.

[The artist known Dunphy]

I'll say it again that in my experience the war on domestic violence results in more damage especially to pure innocents as far as restrictions of civil rights liberties rights to free association and all sorts of stuff like that and the state will take action against an alleged victims wishes and issue domestic violence orders that will keep a person out of their own residence and forbid them from even telephoning their spouse or partner

Certain kinds of domestic violence crimes are also the only crimes under the law where arrest is mandatory no cop discretion whatsoever

Furthermore in my state the only type of arrest where a cop has good faith immunity against being sued for all sorts of things related to the arrest are domestic violence arrests

There is even language in the laws that encourages officers to arrest even when facts are "unclear"

The philosophy is that the primary goal is to interfere with the cycle of domestic violence which is why so many cases involve mandatory arrests and there are all sorts of immunities given to officers when they make the domestic violence arrests that do not apply in any other type of case

[Invisible Finger]

Where I was going is that police are stuck filing reports on this shit because the call was made. Mommy is pissed that smart-ass 9-year old Johnny won't brush his teeth before bedtime and Daddy is at the bar so she calls the police out of frustration. Dispatcher marks call as "domestic disturbance."

Cop is sent to scene. Cop says "Sorry ma'am, we can't do anything. Sorry for your frustration." Cop leaves and files report as per job requirement. Includes names and address.

Two years later mom talks to student therapist. Supervisor looks up patient name in database of "domestic disturbance" calls to police. This person's name gets a "hit" so DCFS is called.

Bureaucratic CYA done. Everybody gets community service commendations. Statistics for "domestic disturbance" calls climbs. Police use statistic to get more funding. Legislator is alarmed at statistics, sponsors legislation to pass tougher laws, including arming DCFS personnel. Police state increased.

Repeat.

[The artist known Dunphy]

I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis.

Radfems define deviancy up by creating a broad ridiculous definition of rape (one questionnaire asks if the woman has ever had sex when they didn't want whether through verbal pressure or whatever and counts a yes answer as a statistical RAPE) and help fuel an industry that has the absurdity to proclaim we live in a culture that promotes rape and protects rapists

DV advocates do the same and of course statistical chicanery is key

To our credit, my agency DISCOURAGES writing reports for most 'verbal domestics' but ime most agencies encourage or require it

Fwiw, I have NO problem with people calling for help from us, and they do, even in a relatively low grade domestic argument. We'd way rather help calm a burgeoning thing than respond after the fact with chalk lines and bandages.

People call us when junior won't do his chores for Pete's sake and I have no problem with that EXCEPT in the cases where they want us to play the bad guy 'see, Johnny you keep disobeying and pretty soon you will be dealing with the police and you can't imagine what jumbie detention is like...'

You are so right vis a vis the statistical game and the gross problem when police write reports to document marital squabbles

[The artist known Dunphy]

Article title is wrong (I Recognize that in many publications a article author is not the one who writes the title when his article is published). Therapist did not call the 'cops'.

There were a A lot of things that disgusted me about how therapist social worker psychologist etc. are entwined with the state. Some of those realizations were key in my decision to drop out of graduate school for clinical psychology. Nothing made me lose more respect for the field of psychology especially as a 'science' than studying it.

I don't have a problem with the concept of making certain people mandatory reporters and I myself am a mandatory reporter, but in my opinion this action by this woman in no way shape or form constitutes the kind of behavior that would mandate a report to your states child protective services agency

I am sure the therapist looked at it from a game theory perspective and knew that if she made a report in an incident where it didn't necessarily rise to the threshold level where said report was mandatory there would be no negative consequences however if an incident did Rise to that level and she did not make the report then there would be consequences.

It's the kind of perverse incentiveization that is common in overreaching government control.

take a kid out of the home is not regarded as punitive in the sense that it's not the kind of thing that criminal immunity regards

[The artist known Dunphy]

I was called in on alleged assault case once based upon a mandatory report by a school administrator

Unlike cops school administrators tend to be poor interviewers and the administrator had been told by a kid that his grandfather had shot at him with a "BB gun'

This prompted the administrator to call CPS and the cops

After a minute or two of interviewing the kid I did what a good interview does which is make sure you define your terms so you're on the same page in how you refer to stuff

It turned out while the kid said "BB gun" it actually was one of those spring-loaded guns that shoots plastic pellets at very low velocity and in no way could've resulted in an injury

In other words there was no criminal case whatsoever nor was there any civil issues or other concerns that would necessitate CPS action

Prior to my arrival the school had already held the kid for my interview such that his guardian was not allowed to pick him up from school due to the perceived danger!

They had rolled the wheels that far without even having the freaking common sense to make sure what the kid was referring to when he said BB gun

[The artist known Dunphy]

You will see this frequently in media articles such as regarding police use of force etc. where dumbass journalists fail to make sure they are properly defining terms

I would be curious for what it's worth if something told to a therapist would be immune from any criminal consequences in other words wouldn't qualify as a doctor patient type of relationship where the woman would have that privilege.

People should be able to talk to a therapist with knowledge that there is no way anything they say to the therapist can ever be used against them

[Invisible Finger]

People should be able to talk to a therapist with knowledge that there is no way anything they say to the therapist can ever be used against them

Even though you make a statement of sensible advice, you work for the entity (the government) that REPEATEDLY SHITS ALL OVER your sensible advice.

The good apples do not unspoil the bunch - they're exploited to cover up the vile shit underneath. You enable the exact behavior you say you abhor.

[The artist known Dunphy]

Utter rubbish

I get to work in a career where there have been countless incidents where I get to do amazing good works and do everything from saving lives to rescue people from violent criminals etc.

I cannot imagine any career that would be more rewarding

That being said the system is grossly imperfect to state it mildly just as any institution created by man necessarily will be

Heck like I said I've had my civil rights grossly violated by police and I've already said that I am now two for two on the lawsuits

It's one of the reason I love my union is that they help us protect our rights from government tyranny

You engage in the typical reason bogus argument that since the legal system is imperfect that somehow invalidates the tremendous good that a good police officer can and does do over the course of a career

Again real people realize how stupid your argument is and that's why again and again pulling data shows how extensive public support and respect for the police is

[The artist known Dunphy]

I'm surprised you didn't trot out the typical nazi analogy about following orders

It's a dumb best is the enemy of the good argument and it makes no sense

The reality is even given an imperfect system which again is true of every single institution created by man cops can do and do a phenomenal amount of good

And of course good cops which means cops that are scrupulously honest brave well-intentioned thorough skilled compassionate and who have a tremendous love for their fellow man can and will do a heck of a lot more good then just mediocre cops or God for bid bad cops

This job is literally epic and what I mean by that is that in a long career there will be many many situations where you will be part of incredible events that most people simply never have an opportunity to be part of

[The artist known Dunphy]

You will be involved in decisions that literally can result in a person who would've died but ends up living or vice versa

Decisions you make can mean the difference between a person spending half their life in prison or being a free man

They can mean the difference between helping to clear a suspect for a case before it ever gets to trial or missing something you should've caught and instead the guy gets arrested and convicted

Sometimes even the subtilest lipstick traces can point you towards something phenomenal

Sometimes you can do something as rewarding as freeing an entire neighborhood from fear and terror by using a totally creative strategy in locating interrogating and getting a confession from A serial arsonist

I could never expect a cynical know nothing keyboard warrior to understand these concepts but I throw them out there because the truth has a dignity all its own

Again outside the rarefied climate of Galactic stupidity and anticop bigotry we see here, i'm happy to live in a society that Rob's values and respects it's police as polling data has proven year in and year out

[FYTW]

Done stroking yourself? I think you've got some dunphy on your chin you might want to wipe off.

You're a jumped-up punk with a badge, nothing more, and you make less of a positive contribution to humanity than the dogshit I scraped off my shoe the other day.

[The artist known Dunphy]

Yes I know you sad ineffective keyboard warrior brigade love to engage in such silly rhetoric

However I know from my experience and especially based upon the feedback I get from those I serve, from defense attorneys, and even from criminals that I am right and you are wrong

I also know from years and years of polling data that society shares my love and respect for police overwhelmingly

One of the most satisfying things about reading stuff from your ilk is that I know from polling data and from personal experience that you are just meaningless ineffective noise and that those of is who DO, who actually make a difference Will always be prone to envy and bile from people like you

I also know I spout at great length about how good I am but the only reason I do it and I only started doing it when I started getting attacked by all the meaningless no nothing critics without any cause whatsoever

🙂

[The artist known Dunphy]

I would never say any of these things in polite society but then of course in society I so often get praise positive feedback etc. that it would just be ridiculous

And again some of that praise is based upon what I have done specifically and some of that praise is simply because of the uniform I wear

To give one example of what I'm talking about... After I got a confession and arrested the serial arsonist and this was a guy we had no evidence on whatsoever - heck when you got a hunch sometimes ya run with it and who was keeping a neighborhood living in incredible fear and who had already done immense damage to several families, they threw a really cool block party for us.

You just never forget that kind of stuff and sometimes when things are pissing you off all you have to do is look back at stuff like that and it's just such an incredible warm fuzzy feeling

You can continue to go about your life of meaningless quiet desperation and we will be continued to be on the frontlines day in and day out doing the good we do and yes even doing it for the thankless people like you

Smooches!!!

[croaker]

You're full of shit. Cops don't work to prove people innocent. They only care about arrest, since that's what gets them promoted.

[Invisible Finger]

I've already said that I am now two for two on the lawsuits

You can be protected from government tyranny because of your station, but you are still trotted out for government propaganda exploitation purposes whether you like it or not.

I am NOT invalidating the good work the police do. I am saying you are a tool being exploited. However, you are free to read your own knee-jerk-defense bias into it if you choose.

So sad you have to resort to polls as a defense.

[Invisible Finger]

The sad part dunphy is that even though I was trying to be nice to you, I point out one failing that ALL humans have (myself included) and you go on a bender about "bogus argument", "nazi analogy", etc.

Thanks for entertaining us.

[The artist known Dunphy]

It never ceases to amaze me how often your ilk can get things absolutely entirely 180? Wrong

far from being protected from government tyranny due to my station I am more prone to be subject to it than a noncop

That is why I am such an advocate for strong police unions binding arbitration and seeking civil redress for grievances

It is why I am such a strong advocate for cops enjoying strong due process protections

I am aware the ridiculous belief here is that cops can just do whatever they want with impunity routinely use excessive force and engage in all sorts of chicanery.before I entered law enforcement and saw stuff first hand I had some of the same erroneous beliefs

Regardless I'm thankful to have a rocksolid police union and to have been able to get redress in civil court

I am such a strong advocate for body cameras because I know how vulnerable we are to false complaints malicious complaints and administrators who want to make their bones by getting cops punished for stuff regardless of whether it's valid

And again I keep seeing example after example of incidents where false complaints quickly get negated by body Camera evidence

I posted an example the other day where a vile woman was very justly convicted of a resisting arrest and in my opinion based on what I saw from the body camera film it's the kind a case where without body Camera evidence a conviction would've been difficult and the cop would've been subject to all sorts of lawsuits and other crap

[sarcasmic]

My stepson is fond of smugly saying about his cop dad: "My dad is a cop. He can do anything he wants."

[Troglodyte Rex]

Anddid you arrest anyone at the school for filing a false report?

[The artist known Dunphy]

It was not a false report at least not in the criminal sense

Failing to determine what the kid meant when he referred to a BB gun is not a willful material miss statement of fact the kind that is criminal in nature

The essence of the law is intent and clearly the administrator did not intend to deceive they were simply unskilled and craptastic in conducting interviews and did not realize that when a 10-year-old refers to a 'bb gun' they might mean something other then a high-powered gun that uses compressed air to shoot a metal BB at high velocity and is capable of causing substantial injury

That's tangential to the fact that even if I had probable cause that they had made a false report under our criminal statues in almost all cases it's a misdemeanor and since they had filed the report prior to my arrival it would not even be an arrestable offense

By statute most misdemeanors are only arrestable if they occur in an officer's presence

There are statutory exceptions for certain misdemeanors such assault theft etc

S

[The artist known Dunphy]

o number one he did not commit a crime number two even if he had it would not of been arrestable

Reason morons are also obsessed with arrests and don't understand the general concept that even if an officer has probable cause for crime and that crime is arrestable it does not therefore follow that one makes an arrest

There are all sorts of determinations that an officer uses to decide if one should make a custodial arrest or just issue a criminal citation or just issue a warning

There are literally about two or three dozen questions a good officer considers before deciding whether or not to make an arrest given probable cause and statutory authority to arrest

I have made this point at least two dozen times here in the past but it never seems to stick

I'm going to skate again for posterity

Making a custodial arrest is hardly a primary goal in law enforcement and as a general rule having authority to arrest for x it does not therefore follow that one should arrest for X

Intelligently using discretion as to when to make a custodial arrest when to issue a criminal citation when to continue to investigate before making either determination and/or when issue a verbal warning is one of the most important skill sets an officer can possess and this is a great example of why good cops can do a tremendous amount of good and certainly far more than mediocre or bad cops

[Troglodyte Rex]

Reason morons are also not so much anti-cop as anti-douchebag cop or even anti-militarized cop. If it weren't for your thine blue statist line you might get a tad more respect.

But since you tend to go full retard on every little thing, do us all a favor and ask your other for a retroactive abortion.

[sarcasmic]

They're all militarized douchebags. The job of a cop is not to enforce the law. Their job is compliance. As in you do what they say, even if the order is unlawful, or they arrest you. Resist and they fuck you up.

The union arbitrator system that Dunphy loves so much ensures that all unlawful arrests for failing to obey unlawful orders face no consequences.

That's why good people don't last as cops. They see themselves surrounded by douchebags who get off on illegally arresting people who assert their rights by refusing obey unlawful orders, and are sickened.

They leave the force and find honorable work.

[croaker]

"Making a custodial arrest is hardly a prmary goal in law enforcement"

You're so full of shit your eyes are brown.

[mpercy]

You mean like when they use the terms "assault weapon", "machine gun", "automatic weapon"?

[Invisible Finger]

I am sure the therapist looked at it from a game theory perspective and knew that if she made a report in an incident where it didn't necessarily rise to the threshold level where said report was mandatory there would be no negative consequences however if an incident did Rise to that level and she did not make the report then there would be consequences.

So you have government-induced CYA coupled with an all-too-likely (based on my knowledge of the town) attitude from a bureaucrat of "I'm sick of these fuckin' spicks with more goddamned kids than they can afford. Let DCFS make their lives even more miserable."

[The artist known Dunphy]

Damn Skippy

Government is the mother of perverse incentivation

And for what it's worth in my opinion nowhere in government are there more entrenched perverse incentives than in the whole domestic violence industry that because of radical feminists has become a gargantuan monstrosity

One of the most disgusting incidents I've ever had to deal with was in a case where I had to make a mandatory arrest for a no contact order violation.

It was one of those incidents where the couple had been together for years despite the order but they did not have the resources to fight to get the order lifted

And again the only incidents in criminal law in my state that mandate arrest are certain domestic violence crimes such as violation of the no contact order

It was bad enough I was required by law to arrest the violator against his partners wishes for a completely victimless crime.

So when I wrote the report I did what I always do which is be accurate and detailed

We are trained to be detailed about demeanor etc. of 'victims' for number of reasons among them that certain hearsay exceptions may apply such as excited utterance present sense impression etc.

I of course describes the victim accurately describing how she was laughing lighthearted and clearly enjoying herself with her partner prior to his arrest

Domestic violence advocates who are paid by the government review all our domestic violence case reports

[The artist known Dunphy]

A domestic violence advocate emailed my supervisor demanding that I be told to rewrite my report since the way I wrote it diminished the impact of the crime and didn't place the victim in a proper light

In other words she didn't want me to be accurate in my police report she wanted me to write it in a way that would make it easier to get a prosecution

Many of these domestic violence advocates are hard-core feminist and ideological jerk wads

Fortunately my sergeant told her to take a hike. And regardless even if I was ordered I would not have changed my police report since it's a document signed on the penalties of perjury and it would be insanely unethical to not be accurate and not report relevant facts just to make the case easier to prosecute

I had another incident where a supervisor demanded I charge a person for domestic violence crime despite the fact that my investigation revealed there was not probable cause

Fortunately again my supervisor supported me and we both told him to screw off and one of his detectives was free to charge the person based on the evidence in my report but of course I would be a witness for the defense

[Agile Cyborg]

For a dude in law enforcement your ethics are commendable here.

[The artist known Dunphy]

Spanks man

It's my belief, borne through experience that a lot of us are like this, but I don't expect most reasonoids would believe that.

As wambaugh said, this is far from the most physically dangerous job ( I agree despite having close friends murdered on duty, knowing nearly a dozen who have been shot, stabbed or otherwise seriously injured, and personally having been shot at, violently been beaten, had people try to stab me etc.) but it's about the most emotionally dangerous one, and being able to maintain a moral compass, a compassion for one's fellow man, through years of police work is very hard, but being able to do so is incredibly rewarding and it is such a warm fuzzy feeling to love your work, love your coworkers and your clients, and to look forward nearly every shift to the great unknown and to those occasional times when you are a witness to a miracle, or something else that gets into your soul and stays there for life

[mpercy]

Personally, I believe that the vast majority of LEOs are bright, rational people who actually try to do a very difficult job to the best of ability. And that most respect the rights of civilians.

Unfortunately, there also appears to be a critical mass of sociopaths wearing a badge. People who in another era would have been the first volunteers to be Brown-shirts.

The parallels between about 1B peaceful Muslims and the critical mass of jihadist terrorists is not without merit.

[rudehost]

"I had another incident where a supervisor demanded I charge a person for domestic violence crime despite the fact that my investigation revealed there was not probable cause"

What does this tell you about the amount of abuse by law enforcement on a regular basis? If you were being pressured to lie by a supervisor you can bet others were as well. He wouldn't be doing it if it didn't work and the fact that it from a supervisor suggests there is an institutional bias in your department towards corruption and criminality.

Not sure that there is any other way to view this. I am fully confident there are good and conscientious people in law enforcement. I strongly suspect they are the minority.

[amelia]

One consideration is that as soon as one mandated reporter consults with another about a piece of information, it is no longer strictly the purview of the first. If the intern didn't report it, but the supervisor thought it was reportable, it would become the supervisor's obligation to report.

I can one-up this story. I went to grad school with a single mom who had CPS called on her by a therapist at the campus mental health clinic. She called CPS not because my friend was leaving her daughter unattended, but because she was not spending much time with her while she was in school and working. They lived with my friend's parents, and the grandparents had the kid when the mom didn't. I was really surprised to learn that CPS actually took the report and investigated, which raises another issue - the training of the people at the call centers.

My friend and I are both mandated reporters now.

[Agile Cyborg]

"Since when is it the professional's job to snitch on a mom who confesses to one imperfect parenting moment?"

Imperfect parenting moment? Are you fucking kidding me, Lenore?!! Where's your goddamn scribe sword cutting metaphorical flesh? Jesus fucking Christ, where's your passion?! Nothing IMperfect about this. It's absurdly OK, absolutely normal, and infinitesimally perfectly fine that she left the kids for 20 minutes to tend to life. IT'S JUST FUCKING LIFE, WORLD!

This therapist (Name?) is a literal sack of rotten human flesh who should do time for fucking with people's lives over inconsequential nothings. Shit is truly being shat in the twilight zones of Cloverdom.

[Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor]

Sounds more likely that the therapist was a 26 year old with no life or parenting experience whose only knowledge is from a government approved textbook.

[Suthenboy]

Apologies to any who might be here, but when I worked in the mental health field for a decade I only met a single social worker who was a normal human being. Every single fucking other therapist and social worker was mind blowingly stupid, crazy to the point of being barely functional, or both. I wouldn't let those people pick up dogshit in of my yard much less tell them about my secrets or intimate details of my life.

I am guessing Lillia has come to the same conclusion and will never seek such 'help' again.

[The artist known Dunphy]

Social workers are certainly an odd lot

In one way it's interesting that as a rule they have Masters degrees and and end up working for absolutely craptastic wages

The ones I have known know this from the start and get into the career anyway

And from what I have seen they inevitably get saddled with a ridiculous number of cases to monitor and probably more than almost any other profession are usually placed in situations where they are dammed if they do dammed if they don't

I agree that from my experience there are a lot of fucked-up people in the field of social work

I have known some rare absolutely top notch persons, too

I know one who took an incredibly stressful thankless job as a social worker at a busy major trauma centre and is probably one of the most praiseworthy people I'd ever met in my life

But yeah I agree with your point

[ant1sthenes]

As a general rule, CPS should only hire parents, and on joining, the new employee's children should be placed into foster care for a month.

That should give them a proper appreciation for what they put other people through.

[ant1sthenes]

The latter requirement should also be obscured in small print, and protected via NDA. Otherwise, only really desperate or hateful people would take the job in the first place. They should experience the fun of the the surprise kidnapping.

[Trollificus]

Dunphy, you sound like an admirable example of the kind of person we all would wish all of our LEOs were.

However.

This reassuring fact is not a valid argument to be presented as a defense of police misbehavior. It just doesn't work that way. When people are confronting horror stories of police misconduct, someone saying "Oh yeah? Well...GOOD COPS!" doesn't turn their disapproval around. Similarly, when you point to the need for a strong union and the good it does, people are reminded of too many instances when that union power and "blue code" was used to support and even enable bad cops/bad behavior by cops.

This explains how it can be, when you present what are to you matters of clear black-and-white fact about police work, someone still focused on horrific abuses by police may not be persuaded AND also not be completely batshit insane...as you seem to have concluded. It's good to know there are good cops, but concerns about for-profit asset forfeiture, militarized police forces, SWAT teams viewing subpoena delivery as commando raid, speed traps and general police hostility to the public they supposedly serve are very real, and not entirely the province of "sad ineffective keyboard warriors".

Keep up the good work, though.

[DarrenM]

I used to have this quaint idea that what I told my doctor would not be told to anyone else (the California State government was informed). It was nothing serious, but I know now not to trust in any fictitious "patient confidentiality". The doctor even got the information wrong. I did have to take another driving test.

[Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor]

The lesson seems to beware of therapists and helping professionals, especially those connected to free clinics and government subsidized programs.

[Pulseguy]

One summer, I was 8, my sister was 5, and my brother was 11, my family stayed in Vernon, BC. Not my Dad. I don't know where he was. But, my Mom and the 3 kids. Every day my bro, my sis, and I would HITCHHIKE to the lake. Every day my Mom would say, 'now be careful, and don't get into any cars where you think the people aren't nice'. We would spend all day there with a bag of sandwiches and a dime to call my Mom if something happened.

We survived that summer.

[Pulseguy]

Actually, without question, it was the best summer ever as a kid.

[Anon E. Mouse]

Today's lesson class, is that you never, ever invite "The Man" into your life, unless it's a matter of life or death, and you're ill-prepared to take care of your own problems.

[ElDuderino]

The therapist needs therapy more than the mom does. The mom is normal. The therapist however has got some kind of issue if she thinks leaving kids alone for twenty minutes is "bad" parenting. It's not like she handed them a can of gas and a box of matches to play with. While she smoked crack with the neighbors.

[Cloudbuster]

Obvious takeaway is never, ever talk to a therapist/psychiatrist/social worker/police officer about *anything*. Clam up.

Anything you say can be used to take your kids away from you or be regarded as concern that you're "a threat to yourself and others" and have you stripped of your human rights without what I'd consider due process. In most states, it's in front of a magistrate, not a jury, is a civil matter, and requires only a preponderance of the evidence. You can lose your freedom in a blink if the court-appointed psychiatrist takes a dislike to you, as the magistrate generally rules on the psychiatrist recommendation. As psychiatry is a voodoo pseudo-science, this is a horrifying prospect.

[Duke]

Kizone Kaprow 10 hours ago
...

It's easy to blame the Evil State for all of life's difficulties. That's what anarchists and libertarians do. In fact, that's why this story was picked up by libertarian Reason.com's resident "free range kids" crackpot, Lenore Skenazy. She, too, uses propaganda techniques in order to sway a gullible audience, defining a clinic student (a student!) as a professional "therapist" and lying about the Department of Children and Family Services, calling them "cops." Here's the headline to her story. Spot the lies and propaganda: Mom Tells Therapist About Briefly Leaving Kids Alone, Shrink Calls Cops It's propaganda disguised as objective journalism, resulting in classic confirmation bias. And it's comically transparent to anyone who doesn't have a cop-hating, government-hating ax to grind.

[Babylonandon]

There are two things that are no longer advisable to do that once were considered a blessing.

1) Visit a therapist if you are having some mental struggles in life ... at some point this will result in you being tagged and targeted by the authorities.

2) Be a Vet taking advantage of the right to care at the VA ... your result is likely to be similar to #1 and if you get sick, it is very possible they will kill you.

[Jackie_Ferrara]

A good therapist, and many bad ones, will let you know the limits of confidentiality. It's not snitching. Weird to see that childish word used in this context... You should not leave an 18 month old at home with an 8 year old. That's really bad judgement. Why would someone panic over a missed school bus? There's always another option besides leaving your kid in an unsafe situation. Always.

[Cloudbuster]

This is exactly the problem, this idea that if your small (or not so small) child is out of your sight for 20 minutes it's tantamount to child abuse.

There are periods far longer than 20 minutes where a parent is in deep sleep cycles, usually in a different room, behind a closed door, and unlikely to hear or respond to a child's distress. Should we sleep in shifts?

This ridiculous idea that children are in imminent danger of death the moment they're out of our sight has got to stop.

She made a quick run out of the house. No harm, no foul. It was a negligible risk. The kids were safe in their own home.

[Suicidy]

Therapists like that make me root for serial killers.

[Constitutionalist]

Years ago CPS made a feeble attempt to get involved in my affairs, concerning my son, but after one phone call the person I spoke to at CPS realized he knew me and he knew what I would do to his face if he pushed the issue! Intimitation sometimes works.

[sylviagraydoc]

my roomate's mother makes $82 /hr on the computer . She has been fired for nine months but last month her check was $18829 just working on the computer for a few hours. you could try this out.....

???????? http://www.netjob70.com