Benjamin Netanyahu Had to Tell John Kerry "This is Not Vietnam"

State

The New Republic has a longish piece on how John Kerry got the latest iteration of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process restarted and how it fell apart around him. It involved a lot of talking and self-importance on all sides. The article includes a lot of reporting on the details of conversations between John Kerry and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, and other Israeli and Palestinian officials. Among the reported conversations is this one that started about Palestinian incitement:

Kerry pressed on: "When I fought in Vietnam, I used to look at the faces of the local population and the looks they gave us. I'll never forget it. It gave me clarity that we saw the situation in completely different ways."

"This isn't Vietnam!" Netanyahu shouted. "No one understands Israel but Israel."

Kerry tried explaining himself again: "No one is saying it's Vietnam. But I've been coming here for thirty years, and I'm telling you, what's building up in the Palestinians has only gotten worse. I've seen it. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong; it just is. It can't be solved if you can't see it how they see it."

Read the rest of the rather unsurprising way Kerry's peace process unfolded here.

Comments

[sloopyinva (previously -inca)]

I'm telling you, what's building up in the Palestinians has only gotten worse. I've seen it. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong; it just is. It can't be solved if you can't see it how they see it.

These are probably the smartest words to ever come out of John Kerry's mouth. In fact, they're so wise, I'm gonna have to see video before I believe that idiot actually uttered them.

[Dan Bongard]

Kerry has confused "we don't agree with the Palestinians" with "we don't understand the Palestinians".

If this was just a simple matter of the two sides misunderstanding each other, it would have been resolved in 1968.

[Cytotoxic]

They're really not very wise. It is a dumb idea to try and empathize with a society of backwards savages.

[Dan Bongard]

Well, regardless of what one thinks of Palestinian society, saying what amounts to "I've been occasionally visiting your country for 30 years, whereas you have only been *living* here for 65" is pretty silly.

[Bobarian]

And this compares to my extensive 6 months I spent in VN...

[MSimon]

I spent 3 months off the coast. With side trips to Subic. Or Pubic as we used to refer to it.

[briannnnn]

Also, little kids blow up the same whether their culture is backwards or not...I think we sometimes lose site of the fact that this is a very personal issue for the people directly affected.

[briannnnn]

It's sight dumbass!

[sarcasmic]

Yeah. It's not like they're even human or anything. Just slaughter them like the animals that they are.

[briannnnn]

Just make sure you follow kosher rules when you do it.

[Almanian!]

+nice

[MSimon]

The knives are required to be very sharp in order to inflict the minimum of pain.

[Cytotoxic]

The Palis sure behave in an inhuman manner.

[Calidissident]

But there's nothing inhuman about you calling for genocide?

[Cytotoxic]

There's something typical about you're lying about my calling for genocide.

[sarcasmic]

You have yet to express any limits on governments killing people. If anything you cry that the military doesn't do enough killing. Logically that implies you support genocide.

[Calidissident]

Did you not say that sarcasmics post about killing them all in the other thread was finally a good comment from him. And your post above doesn't do much to dispel that notion

[entropy_factor]

ah, sweet collectivism

[lackoffaithless]

Amen to all of that.

[Mainer2]

I saw Kerry on Stephanopolous's show Sunday morning, and as little regard as I have for Kerry, dammit, I had to agree with him. Principles not principals and all that.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Isn't it Abbas, not Abba?

[Rhywun]

You spelled "Addis Ababa" wrong.

[briannnnn]

Fucking dogs!!!

[MSimon]

A Lee Bubba.

[MegaloMonocle]

It can't be solved if you can't see it how they see it."

True enough, I guess. But it assumes that it can be solved if you see it how they see it. And since the Palis apparently see every Jew in the ME as an invader, and likely as a subhuman "other", seeing it as they see it doesn't exactly make a diplomatic solution likely.

The Palis don't want their own state, they don't want a right of free access to Israel. They want Israel to be replaced by a Judenfrei Pali state. There's simply no common ground to be found by negotiation.

[Heroic Mulatto]

We're not talking about all Palestinians. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip have evolved to be two different animals forms of the same Pok?mon. One need only look at the Hamas Charter. In Art. 13, it is spelled out quite clearly that

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know." ... There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Are we not to take Hamas at their own word? Are we not to believe that when they say that peace negotiations are a waste of time and the only solution is total war that what they really mean is that they are waiting for an Israeli olive branch? The answer is, of course, that thousands of diplomats, NGO workers, and bureaucrats have grown fat by participating in this farce. Think of all the jobs lost at the UN, the State Department, et al. if an authentic and lasting peace were achieved.

[Drake]

Think of all the people in the UN "refugee camps" who would have to get jobs and lead productive lives if the were no longer "refugees" from a war in the 1940's.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Indeed. They would be taking "Jordanian" jobs, and we can't have that now, can we?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

HM for most of its existence Likud officially endorsed the position of 'The Whole Land of Israel,' which is not as vulgarly put as that section of the Hamas charter but essentially means that the Palestinians (and Jordanians and more) should be 'driven into the sea' (to borrow a phrase).

[Heroic Mulatto]

Nonsense. No Israeli political party with any sort of power advocates the conquest and annexation of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, or Egypt. Likud has always defined Israel's eastern border as the Jordan River. How could they advocate "driving" Jordanians (and more?) to the sea when they define their border where Jordan begins? "Greater Israel" is nothing more than a classic antisemitic canard, and shame on you for even invoking it.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I guess Wikipedia is putting out these antisemitic canards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel

[Cytotoxic]

Yes, they are. Shame on you and Wikipedia.

[entropy_factor]

shhh don't speak truth to the Israel-firsters. That makes you pretty much Hitler!!!one!1!

[Lord Peter Wimsey]

Hey dickhead, everyone here (on both sides) is either making arguments (citing Hamas charter) or making reasonable points (killing backward people is still killing) so you really don't add much with your dumb-ass assertion that supporting Israel makes means you are secretly in league with Israel over your own country.

This would be like me asserting that every critic of Israel wants to secretly felate a Saudi Prince.

[MSimon]

killing backward people is still killing backward people

FIFY

[Dan Bongard]

The only (formerly) Jordanian territory that Israel lays claim to is the West Bank area.

Also, Hamas' position is that Jews should be exterminated. Chasing them out of Israel is just part of it.

[Drake]

When your only tool is a hammer...

[Notorious G.K.C.]

I don't know what the "silent majority" of Palestinians want, it would be dangerous for moderates to put their heads up and say, "hey, wait a minute, let's work something out with Israel...THWACK" (sound of head being chopped off).

So I'm not going to judge the Palestinian people as a whole, but their leaders...wow, what a bunch of evil bastards.

[Mongo]

After being accused of breaking the "peace" by Bill Clinton, Arafat said that he had to or he would've been assassinated by fellow Arabs.

[MegaloMonocle]

Fair enough. Although when Israel tries to limit its attacks to Hamas, it is accused of a campaign of assassination.

I don't know what kind of economic benefits having any kind of interaction with the Palis gets Israel, but I'd be tempted to just completely shut the border. Period, full stop. Nothing crosses except ordnance, if that's how the Palis want to play it.

[Drake]

Are you saying border guards and walls would work?

[Lord Peter Wimsey]

You forget that Israel is required under international agreements to provide food, water, medicine, and other good to the Palis.

Jews being the only people in the world who are required to fund their own executioners.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Both Kerry's and Netanyahu's comments were retarded. Israel is not some sort of enigma that it is forever inscrutable to an outside observer. While Vietnam is the wrong historical parallel, that doesn't mean others can't be drawn. Indeed, far from being unique, Israel's situation has much in common with that of the Bamar and the Rohingya in Rakhine State.

[Cytotoxic]

Good point, though the Bamar/Rohingya part is a little vague.

I'd like to add that I think the backwardness and evil of Palestinian society has a lot to do with the ridiculous amounts of aid pouring into Palestine and Palestinian refugee camps. This conflict is basically the UN's pet project.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Eh, I'm too lazy to detail the parallels between the two right now. But there are many. In the meantime, You can read up on the Arrakan riots of the 1940s as British India was beginning to break up and certain "troublesome" populations were trying to prevent Pakistan (East and West) from growing as big as it could be.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

"the backwardness and evil of Palestinian society has a lot to do with the ridiculous amounts of aid pouring into Palestine and Palestinian refugee camps"

But the billions poured into Israel from the US just produce goodness and rainbows I guess.

[briannnnn]

Did you know that every time you give a dollar to Israel, a Palestinian child get's its wings!

[Res Publica Americana]

Israel's much better in every possible way, but not innocent. It's not one or the other.

[Cytotoxic]

It produced a welfare state, which is bad but nearly as bad as free money on the hands of PA.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Netanyaho played the race card?

NO ONE UNDERSTANDS US!

[Mike M.]

2124 12th St NW Washington, DC 20009, phone number 202-261-2848.

[WTF]

JOOOOOS!!11!!!!

[Bo Cara Esq.]

One wonder if WTF gets the irony.

[Anonymous Coward]

Among the reported conversations is this one that started about Palestinian incitement:

It seems that the thought of Jews drawing breath is sufficient to "incite/trigger" the Palestinians.

Maybe the Israelis should walk around with yellow "Trigger Warning" badges on the outside of the clothes....

Oops.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

"It seems that the thought of Jews drawing breath is sufficient to "incite/trigger" the Palestinians."

Is that how this latest incident seems to you? Two Hamas members murdered three Israeli teenagers. Israel responded by going into Pali areas, tossing thousands of homes, shooting some Palis, arresting and imprisoning hundreds, and some Jewish extremists murdered a Pali teenager. Palis responded with rockets, Israel responded with missiles.

[Res Publica Americana]

Israel re-escalated an ongoing war. Justifiably, too. Palestine didn't "respond" with rockets -- those barbarian fuckbags have been attacking Israel forever. What is it with this bullshit narrative about how this is an all-new conflict instigated by Israel? It's been taking place for years.

[briannnnn]

In fairness, a ridiculously powerful militarized Israel is a relatively new concept.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

What do take issue with regarding the timeline I described?

[Cytotoxic]

The implication that anything Israel did was in any way unjustified.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It's funny that you must see the implication too.

[Cytotoxic]

...what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that how this latest incident seems to you?

Yes, because this dance has been going on now for going on for nearly 70 years. It's been old for awhile. The Palestinians do something out of line, the Jews kick their teeth in, Palestinians then cry about getting their teeth kicked and claim the Jews are meanies for kicking their teeth in, despite their previous out-of-line actions.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I don't see how this fits with that timeline very well.

[Cytotoxic]

That's because you're retarded.

[Lord Peter Wimsey]

"some Jewish extremists murdered a Pali teenager."

For which they will be punished and put in prison. And denounced by virtually every Israel citizen.

Meanwhile, the HAMAS OPERATIVES (under orders from who?) who murdered those kids will have a fucking soccer stadium named after them.

Fuck Hamas. And fuck whatever Lew Rockwell, anti-war.com, Pat Buchanan website you get your distorted narrative from.

[Dan Bongard]

"Two Hamas members murdered three Israeli teenagers."

So, in other words, the first thing in your series of events was:

"The government of Palestine murdered three Israeli teenagers".

And Israel responded by... going into Pali areas? Searching houses? THOSE MONSTERS.

[Hugh Akston]

John has uncontrollable flashbacks of the time his buddy fell face first on a landmine every time Teresa takes her pantsuit off.

[James C. Bennett]

God damn you Walter...What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam?

[JEP]

+1 White Russian

[Corning]

The sad thing is Kerry is an order of magnitude better then Hilary.

[GILMORE]

"Peace Process", Aye?

That's what they want to call it?

Sort of like, "Obamacare"?

[sarcasmic]

Sort of like, "Obamacare Affordable Care"?

ftfy

[GILMORE]

I think the short of this is that the US has been paying lip service to "solving the middle east crisis" for decades largely to ameliorate a domestic audience, and in fact engaging in Zero actual behaviors that encourage any kind of political reconciliation whatsoever. This sort of selfish and disingenuous tut-tutting moralism inevitably makes anyone run out of patience, no matter how much military aid you give them. Both Israel and the Palestinians have long ago written of the USA as a dishonest broker. Our leverage w/ the Israelis took a significant ding last year when Obama threw a bone to the Iranians in an attempt to deflect news about Obamacare failures...

Here's a perfect case for "Non intervention!" Stop giving anybody in the region any money, stop telling them what to do, and stay the fuck out of it.

[LynchPin1477]

I read the New Republic article. It definitely paints Kerry as sincere and dedicated. That's not enough, obviously, but I don't think they were just paying lip service.

[GILMORE]

You think this Admin is "more" committed to any kind of real progress in the Israeli/Palestinian issue than previous administrations?

Seriously?

I give Clinton/Albright some actual credit on this, but no one else since then has actually done fuck-all except babysit their slow-motion civil war for the last 20 years, occasionally making concerned noises.

[DRM]

If the Arabs had been driven out of the West Bank/Gaza back in 1967, the whole mess would be as dead an issue today as the status of Danzig was in 1992.

[Res Publica Americana]

You know, I've been pretty hard on people shitting on Israel recently, but honestly, this horseshit about how Israel and its predicament are supposedly some sort of uber-complex, supremely unique, indecipherable mystery that nobody but Israelis can judge or understand is just mind-fuckingly retarded. That kind of arrogance makes me want to vomit.

[briannnnn]

Are you a lady? 😉

[Res Publica Americana]

Possibly.

[briannnnn]

Your comment just reminded me of when the provost at Harvard said that men were better suited for math, and all of these feminists were like "I was so upset thought I was going to be sick!!!" That's all

[Res Publica Americana]

Hey, I'm sure I'm not the only guy here who vomits when up-their-own-assholes politicians spew self-righteous bullshit.

Still, I could be a secret libertarian babe. Who knows?

[Chinny Chin Chin]

This was my favorite line of the article:

"[Netanyahu and Kerry] like to talk for long periods of time," said someone who has dealt with both leaders. "And I'm not sure that when one of them is lecturing the other at length, the other guy is really listening very carefully."

I've got to believe this is true of most high-level political talks, regardless of country or era. TOP MEN know they're top men, and that they have more to teach than to learn. With such wanks running the world, it's really rather remarkable that humans have gotten as far as we have.

[LynchPin1477]

Our saving grace is that they don't actually run the world. Lord knows they try, but mostly they engage in theater.

[Lord Peter Wimsey]

If Netanyahu doesn't want to be lectured by Kerry (and he shouldn't want this) then he should simple stop taking US money.

Years ago I was listening to Settler Radio on the internet and the audience of hard-core Israeli settlers was asked who they'd vote for in the US pres election, Bush or Kerry. The top vote getter was Ron Paul. Main reason? Paul wanted to end US aid to Israel.

That's the hard-core, fuck the Palestinians, political position. The day US aid (and the attached strings) ends is the day the savages can kiss their asses goodbye.

[jmomls]

*I used to look at the faces of the local population and the looks they gave us. I'll never forget it.*

Yeah, buddy, for all that ten minutes Lurch was incountry, he really soaked up the peasant's glares, didn't he.

[Jayburd]

This will end when Israel is destroyed. Both sides agree on that point.