A.M. Links: Snowden To Meet With Human Rights Groups, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood Not Backing Down, Plan To Arm Rebels in Syria Delayed

Credit: Laura Poitras / Praxis Films / wikimedia

• NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden is planning to meet with human rights groups today at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport.

• Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood has vowed to continue its campaign to restore Morsi to power.

• The Obama administration's plan to arm rebels in Syria is being delayed by disagreements between some members of Congress.

• Somali journalists are not happy about a media law recently approved by government ministers which they say will make it harder to do their jobs.

• The families of those killed during the Sandy Hook shooting could receive $281,000 each from donations.

• A Pennsylvania policeman has been accused of taking his kids shoplifting.

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Comments

[Fist of Etiquette]

The Obama administration's plan to arm rebels in Syria is being delayed by disagreements between some members of Congress.

Congress is supplying the rebels with gridlock.

[Swiss Servator - past LTC(ret)]

Now that I approve of!

[wareagle]

now, that's one way to export democracy.

[Fist of Etiquette]

A Pennsylvania policeman has been accused of taking his kids shoplifting.

In his defense, he was just entrapping them.

[Ted S.]

I figured he was taking them on an asset forfeiture case.

[Bee Tagger]

We both made asset forfeiture references at 9:03 am but you wisely did it as a hop-on comment.

[Auric Demonocles]

You're gonna get hop-ons.

[Ted S.]

This is the problem people who oppose threaded comments on principle have.

[Fist of Etiquette]

And some day we will crush those opposition forces with the might of othering.

[Ted S.]

Wait until they start backdating their comments to appear ahead of yours. 😐

[Fist of Etiquette]

If they're quality comments and in reference to official links, I'll applaud it.

[Gene]

Thanks now I have coffee all over my keyboard.

[Old Man With Candy]

As Warty implied, my neighbor's mother-in-law made over $123 an hour doing this simple asset forfeiture plan. I didn't believe her until I saw her chek from last month over $25477 and a Porsche. Here's how: http://www.copshoplift.com

[mnarayan]

Cleveland fan requests Browns "let him down one last time".

[Swiss Servator - past LTC(ret)]

Unheard of!

[Longtorso, Johnny]

The Golden Girls: How One TV Show Turned A Generation Of American Boys Into Homosexuals

[Marc F Cheney]

Well played!

[Ska]

You cheeky bastard.

[datcv]

So that's what did it. Too many reruns on TV. 🙁

[Clich? Bandit]

Thanks Johnny, I had forgotten the "Golden" days.

[Lord Humungus]

I normally don't believe in lynchings but I'm willing to make an exception.

[Marshall Gill]

Me too. The only question is which one of you first.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Somali journalists are not happy about a media law recently approved by government ministers which they say will make it harder to do their jobs

Is there something about Somalia having a government that I missed in the morning papers?

[Mr Whipple]

I thought Somalia had teh anarky.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Somali journalists are not happy about a media law recently approved by government ministers which they say will make it harder to do their jobs.

That's what they get for recognizing a government. Next up: parking meters.

[NeonCat]

Journalism meters. Insert a coin for 5 minutes of objective-ish reporting.

[Auric Demonocles]

Snowden should release some info on who is stealing the alt-text.

[Swiss Servator - past LTC(ret)]

Wouldn't Reason drone him then?!

[DontShootMe]

The drone would run out of fuel long before the reasonoids could agree on who to target.

[Swiss Servator - past LTC(ret)]

Touche!

[RBS]

Probably Nick, he hates us the most.

[Auric Demonocles]

Could be Matt in revenge for being an honorable mention in that poll of evil.

[RBS]

Maybe, but Matt probably thought it was funny.

[Ted S.]

Snowden should release a new photo.

[jesse.in.mb]

That's a good picture of him. I'm sure he doesn't look as fresh now that he's living a Tom Hanks movie. Older "professional" photos of him washed out his features and he looks both overly twinky (keep the stubble Snowden) and a bit like Odo.

[Lord Humungus]

The CIA and a secret vacuum cleaner
http://bigstory.ap.org/article.....um-cleaner

Mohammed had endured the most brutal of the CIA's harsh interrogation methods and had confessed to a career of atrocities. But the agency had no long-term plan for him. Someday, he might prove useful. Perhaps, he'd even stand trial one day.

And for that, he'd need to be sane.

"We didn't want them to go nuts," the former senior CIA official said, one of several who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk about the now-shuttered CIA prisons or Mohammed's interest in vacuums.

So, using schematics from the Internet as his guide, Mohammed began re-engineering one of the most mundane of household appliances.

[wareagle]

if water boarding is "the most brutal" thing the CIA has, that quote gets the day's hyperbole prize.

[db]

"CIA Agent James Dyson authorized the activity, and now you know...the rest of the story."

[Brett L]

Top 10 misquoted songs. Although I guess they attributed #1 to Manfred Mann because nobody heard the orginal on Greetings for Asbury Park.

[John]

Which ironically is one of the few decent Springsteen songs and really his only good record.

[Restoras]

There is no such thing a decent Springsteen song. They all suck.

[Enough About Palin]

Meeting Across the River, with its obbligato trumpet work is a masterpiece.

[Enough About Palin]

But yeah, the rest all suck.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Manfred Mann's Boss covers sound like bad Muzak.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Of all the dumb things you've said...

[Palin's Buttplug]

As a rule, Dylan and Springsteen covers never have the panache of the original.

There is one notable exception to this rule though.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Bob Dylan sucks as a singer. There, I said it.

[Zeb]

Not really a very controversial statement.

[robc]

The SNL skit with Tom Petty translating for Bob Dylan was great.

[Lord Humungus]

I like Dylan! /man in back of room

[Palin's Buttplug]

http://www.rollingstone.com/mu.....n-20101202

Number 7 in Rolling Stones' '100 Greatest Singers' list.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Like I give a shit what Rolling Stone thinks. Jan Wenner can suck it.

[KDN]

Number 7 in Rolling Stones' '100 Greatest Singers' list.

Come on now. That entire article can be summed up as, "Dylan is great at singing because he enabled other bad singers to become famous."

[califernian]

http://www.rollingstone.com/mu.....ers' list.

Good god, your authority fetish even dictates your music taste. It's sad.

[KDN]

Wait, what? Dylan covers are often better than the originals because he's a rotten singer and poor musician. And I say this as someone that despises most covers.

Springsteen's got similar issues, but he gives such a great live performance that people just forget about it.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Dylan was a great, great studio singer.

Of all the great songs he wrote no cover has ever improved on Dylan's original except 'All Along the Watchtower' which worked because it was essentially rewritten by Jimi as an instrumental piece.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

This is the wrongest statement in the history of musical commentary.

[Stormy Dragon]

All of the Dylan covers that The Byrds did were better than the originals.

[John]

I can't believe I am agreeing somewhat with Shreek. Dylan's voice is not as bad as people think. And none of the Byrds' covers are half as good as the originals.

[sgs]

In the words of my mother in law Gigi, who helped organize Woodstock and who personally knew Dylan, Hendrix, Joplin and, well, fuck I've seen pictures of her with all of them,

"Fuck Bob Dylan, he was awful, he sang like someone was stepping on a cats tail."

[Old Man With Candy]

The Nice, "Country Pie."

[Mr Whipple]

Dylan covers are often better than the originals because he's a rotten singer and poor musician.

That's why there are so many.

[Brett L]

This isn't one of them.

[mad libertarian guy]

The Sound of Muzak?

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Top 10 misquoted songs.

I saw this list as an old joke in an issue of Reader's Digest circa 1997. This is bogus. Who the fuck legitimately thinks Elton John was singing about Tony Danza? I call shenanigans.

[John]

Was Otis Redding singing about "she may be wooly" on there? Ah, that was in a movie you morons.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Oh wait there's a whole set of books about these that are old as shit:

http://www.amazon.com/Gavin-Edwards/e/B001IZRHKW

[robc]

No one has ever sang "Rock the cat box" either.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

For reals. That was on a commercial, IIRC.

[The Dan]

i want to take you by the thighs
and make you realize
Amanda

[KDN]

My mom had a "misquoted lyric of the day" calendar back in the mid-90's. My old man liked to start arguments with her about the actual lyrics just to watch her freak out about it. I didn't realize it at the time, but it was some good trolling.

[Enough About Palin]

"The girl with colitis goes by"

- Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds

[Pro Libertate]

Completely forgot that one--I heard it, too. For years.

[Pro Libertate]

I agree completely. The Hendrix one, for instance, is bullshit, since I've never heard anyone argue that one. Everyone knows what he's singing.

Now "Blinded by the Light" is spot on, because it sounds like what everyone thinks it sounds like.

[PS]

Actually I had a girlfriend who thought it was kiss this guy. But she was dumb as dirt. With a crazy body.

[Pro Libertate]

I've read it in a book talking about misheard lyrics, so I'm sure some people think it. But not many.

[PS]

I'm pretty sure Purple Haze was all that existed between this girl's ears. Did I mention the craaazy body?

[Pro Libertate]

Here's how I hear it:

Phaser rays, firin' through my brain,
Lately things just don't seem that sane.
Feelin' nervous, and I'll tell you why,
I'm a red-shirted guy on the Enterprise.

Phaser rays, shootin' 'round,
Don't know if I'm beamin' up or down.
How I'll die is a mystery,
Whatever it is, I know somethin's killin' me.

Help me,
Help me,
Oh, no, no.
(sound of phaser. . .scream)

Phaser rays, to my left and right,
Don't know if I should flee or fight.
You see it's lookin', lookin' grim.
Is it tomorrow Bones'll say, "He's dead, Jim"?

Oh, no, oh,
Oh, help me.
Phaser rays - Tell me, baby, tell me, I can't beam down like this.
Phaser rays - You're makin' me blow my mind. . .Uhura.
Phaser rays - n-no, nooo.
Phaser rays - No, it's painful, baby.

[PS]

That version was written by Hendrix with a goatee.

[Pro Libertate]

Exactly. Straight out of the mirror universe.

[Eduard van Haalen]

+5 year mission

[Gbob]

Sheepishly raises hand.

Yeah. I'll admit it. I had always heard it as "kiss this guy" when I was a kid. Thought it was cool and subversive that he would bend gender roles like that. It was the eighties. We didn't have those fancy ways of looking shit up.

[Pro Libertate]

I have a question for you. What do you think he meant by the following line? "Oh, move over, Rover/And let Jimi take over."

[Gbob]

I have a question for you. What do you think he meant by the following line? "Oh, move over, Rover/And let Jimi take over."

I'm sure Waty could demonstrate.

[Pope Jimbo]

I had a buddy in high school who was amazed that the radio station fucked up and played the uncensored version of Bryan Adam's big hit back in the 80's.

He couldn't believe that no one was going to go to jail for playing the song "Cock sucking night" on the public airwaves.

I still can't listen to that song 30 years later without giggling.

[BakedPenguin]

Mann's mushmouth vocals don't help.

Also - "You gotta pay the troll toll
if you want to get this boy's hole."

[sgs]

That's what I said.

Boy's soul.

[SIV]

Australia's greatest band owes their name to misheard Stooges lyrics:

Radio Birdman

[mad libertarian guy]

Australia has but one band, dammit.

[PS]

That's a link to Men at Work, right?

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Dexy's Midnight Runners.

[Bobarian]

Cum on Eileen?

Or did I mishear that?

[Lord Humungus]

grr...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZZnhBQXRaI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZKuqy1Pro

[Enough About Palin]

John Collinson and Russell Callow?

[Enough About Palin]

Slim Dusty?

[Pro Libertate]

That's right, AC/DC is a Scottish band.

[Zeb]

I've seen much better lists of misquoted songs. Though "wrapped up like a douche" and "scuse me while I kiss this guy" belong on any such list.

[robc]

I think they were the only legit ones on that list.

And I dont care what Springsteen sang or what he wrote, Mann is singing "douche" not "deuce". Period. End of story.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

I agree. That's definitely the way they say it.

[Not an Economist]

Manfred Mann is not the lead on that song.

[SugarFree]

Vacant Lot "Blinded By The Light"

[Gray Ghost]

How does, "I'll never leave your pizza burning," not make this list?

[KDN]

Greetings for Asbury Park

Someone should do an album full of Springsteen covers and name it that, just to see who notices it's not quite right.

[Brett L]

You're right. The whole thing is:

Greetings for Asbury Park, NJ

[Palin's Buttplug]

"from", not "for" iirc.

[Mr Whipple]

YRC. The album cover is a picture of a postcard...from a time when Asbury Park wasn't a shithole.

[KDN]

Asbury Park was a shithole by then. It's actually gotten quite a bit better in the past decade, though it's still pretty sketchy once you're more than 5 blocks in from the beach. Even still, thanks for making it better, gays!

[Mr Whipple]

I meant the postcard was from a time when it wasn't a shithole. The postcard looks like it is from the 40s or 50s. Asbury Park didn't really become a shithole until the 70s.

[PS]

"You take my life buy I'll take your stew!"

[Lord Humungus]

Lululemon says see-through yoga pants are just too small
http://www.thestar.com/busines.....small.html

Retailer Lululemon Athletica Inc. says customers could still be sporting see-through Luon yoga pants because they're buying sizes that are too small for them.

The Vancouver-based company said Wednesday there are still "a few negative comments" circulating on the Internet from shoppers who it believes are buying the wrong size.

noooo! not that!

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

We covered yesterday that you cannot post boring links involving yoga pants. We're demoting you to Gentleman.

[Zeb]

Yeah, I don't want to see any article about yoga pants that doesn't have lots of photos to illustrate the point.

[RBS]

I cautiously agree, do we know for sure these women referenced in the article should even be wearing yoga pants at all?

[Lord Humungus]

It pays to be cautious...

[Zeb]

Well, I don't necessarily want to see any and all such photos. But I definitely don't want to see a yoga pants article without.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood has vowed to continue its campaign to restore Morsi to power.

They sure could use some F-16's right about now.

[Rasilio]

A Squadron of A-10's would actually be more helpful to them.

[Bee Tagger]

A Pennsylvania policeman has been accused of taking his kids shoplifting.

Simple fix. Surely, the shopping center was the scene of a drug-deal at some point, right? Voila, asset forfeiture.

[Auric Demonocles]

The families of those killed during the Sandy Hook shooting could receive $281,000 each from donations.

But those hundreds of thousands of parents whose kids have died from something besides a shooting in the past few years? Fuck those guys.

[wareagle]

parents in an affluent community where a crazy man struck get money; parents in ghettos where gangbangers work get lectures about gun control.

[Auric Demonocles]

Well, you can't lecture them on gun control. The shooting happened in a gun free zone.

[a better weapon]

If you're child is the victim of black on black shooting, fugghedaboutit.

[Lord Humungus]

Police: Santa Rosa man severely burned in cannabis oil explosion
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/a...../130719952

would you describe him as baked?

[Zeb]

Let me guess. Butane extraction?

[SugarFree]

Yup. Just hot extract it in ethanol, doofus. More useful and a better high than hash oil anyway.

[Ska]

I need to learn some science. I have a clearomizer that could easily work with hash oil.

[sgs]

"Just hot extract it in ethanol, doofus."

Butane and PVC is easier and safer.

"More useful and a better high than hash oil anyway."

From the exact same chemicals? You're fucking stupid.

[sgs]

Seriously, ethanol and butane extraction get you to the exact same place.

You're a fucking idiot SF.

[SugarFree]

Aw, does someone need a nap? You can have your juice box after. Don't want you peeing in the bed again.

[Gene]

Yes, to attempt isomeric extraction in a bathroom certainly qualifies him as such.

My late wife years ago was sharing an apartment with a friend, she came home one day and turned on the tv and the apartment more or less blew up. A friend of the roommate had been cooking up a batch on a hotplate in the adjacent kitchen and when the television came on the static ignited the fumes. She was charged and her name was splashed all over the local media meanwhile she never toked in her life. Eventually the charges were dropped when the roommate got his buddy to fess up.

[Zeb]

Qualifies him as stupid. There's no amount of baked I could get that would make me think that was a good idea to do indoors.

[Ted S.]

If it involves oil, wouldn't he be fried?

[Enough About Palin]

No, half baked.

[Brett L]

With the exception of #1 and #2, these people have a different metric for quality of life than I do.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Quality of life includes not freezing to death if you sprain your ankle more than 50 yards from shelter.

[Auric Demonocles]

Put on a coat.

[Brett L]

And beaches you can use for more than 3 months a year. And preferably at least one SEC school in the state, to provide a minimum standard of hot 19 year old quality.

[Auric Demonocles]

You can't use southern beaches in the summer. Unless you guys have made some air conditioned beaches, which would be pretty sweet.

[RBS]

I use a southern beach every summer and have for 30 years.

[Brett L]

I was talking Labor Day thru Memorial Day.

[Pro Libertate]

Really? I'm not fan of the heat, but it doesn't bother me that much when I'm at the beach.

[Auric Demonocles]

If it's 80 something it can be put up with. Above that and no, that's not beach weather, that's stay inside in the AC weather.

Plus gingers don't tan.

[Pro Libertate]

I'm not a ginger, thank God, but I'm from a long line of people who liked breeding with other northern Europeans, so I have to use a lot of sunscreen. My youngest daughter, who is 1/4 Colombian, got my genes and is even fairer than I am.

When I'm diving or out on a kayak all day, I use Bullfrog, which never comes off. SPF 1,000,000.

[RBS]

The heat. That's what the ocean is for.

[Pro Libertate]

Just so you know, the temperature of the Gulf here is in the high 80s.

What saves the beaches in Tampa is the breeze. It's always breezy.

[Rasilio]

Not to mention the ridiculous high Iodine Green Slime that forms all over the Gulf Coast for half the Summer and bleaches your skin white in 20 seconds

[Pro Libertate]

I've somehow missed that.

[Enough About Palin]

The first time I saw that shit was at Grayton Beach in FL. It was on the restroom floor. I thought someone had thrown-up.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

The irony being that the lone SEC school is Texas is probably the worst when it comes to that.

[Brett L]

Yeah, but I don't think we should use UT and the boobs of KU to give a blanket exception to the Big 12. So I gave TAMU a pass, male cheerleaders and all.

[John]

aTm is one of the most homoerotic campus in America. It is like if Top Gun had a university.

[Gray Ghost]

aTm is one of the most homoerotic campus in America. It is like if Top Gun had a university.

A&M: putting the cult in agriculture since 1876.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Tech and TCU represent very strongly on a per capita basis. Oklahoma is, well, Oklahoma.

[Ted S.]

When the hell did "represent" become an intransitive verb?

[John]

Yeah. The hottest women at Texas Universities are not at aTm or even UT. Those two have plenty of hot women, but no more than any other state school in the south. But the women at those two pale in comparison to the ones at places like SFA or Texas State or UT Arlington or the other non mainline campuses. Texas has just an amazing supply of hot women and most of them don't end up at UT or aTm.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

But the women at those two pale in comparison to the ones at places like SFA or Texas State or UT Arlington or the other non mainline campuses.

That's almost Shriek-level wrong, right there. Texas State is accurate. SFA and UTA, not so much.

[John]

SFA is full of hot women. Where do you think the strippers in Houston and Dallas go to college? And Texas State, being the state teachers' college is epic.

[Brett L]

SFA is full of hot women. Where do you think the strippers in Houston

Hunstville? No. I know plenty of Bearkats, but I don't think of SFA as punching above its weight. Its like saying that because there are hot girls everywhere in TX, the Jucos are packed with hot women. Yes, there are plenty. No, it isn't even remarkable. Or maybe I just grew up in a land of plenty that has left me unable to appreciate my relative good fortune.

[Old Man With Candy]

All pale compared to UCSB. Pound for pound the hottest women on the planet.

There used to be a UC joke: Nine out of ten UC girls are insanely hot. The tenth goes to Davis.

[RBS]

If only I had more access to the internet when I made my college decision.

[robc]

My school barely had access to women, much less hot ones.

[PS]

Texas has just an amazing supply of hot women...

Partly attributable to a large supply of Czech immigrants.

[Zeb]

You fucking southerners are a bunch of goddamn pussies.

[Auric Demonocles]

I fully admit to being a pussy about the heat. But at least that's because I only have so many clothes to take off, and the more I take off the more second degree burns I get.

[itsnotmeitsyou]

You fucking southerners are a bunch of goddamn pussies.

Fucking seriously. Come live in north east Ohio for a year then start bitching about weather wherever you're from.

Too hot where you come from? 3 days ago it was 93 degrees with over 100% humidity. Fuck off.

Oh yeah, and 6 months ago we hit -10 and had over 2 feet of snow fall in less than 24 hrs. Again, fuck off.

I can't count the number of times I've driven with the top down on my car while the 12 inches of snow that fell last night is still melting in the 65 degree weather that today offers. Aside from desert-like conditions, if there's a climate somewhere, we get an analogue. Sometimes multiple in one day.

[Stormy Dragon]

What if we don't like the beach? I never got what was supposed to be so fun about sitting out in the sun with no cover, soaking in filthy water while trying not to get attacked by various critters and getting sand every where.

And oh, God, the stink. Everything smells like dead fish.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Hell no. And I'm not buying a snow shovel or snow blower, either.

[Zeb]

Snow blowers are the shit. You're really missing out.

[Enough About Palin]

Uban Dictionary defines Snowblower as a Minneapolis whore.

[Zeb]

That's why I keep it as two separate words.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Not as cool as 180+ hp street bikes, which I can -- well, could -- easily ride 10+ months out of the year and year round when I really wanted to.

[Fluffy]

I was going to scoff at Vermont being #2, but then I remembered that I interact with hippies, pinkos and granolas on a daily basis and somehow am never inspired to kill them.

So it must be pretty nice here to keep me this placid.

[Auric Demonocles]

Vermont is really nice. I'd love to live there again if it had any jobs. You just have to avoid the outwardly political people. (Luckily by definition they give themselves away pretty easily)

Oh how I miss dollar drafts.

[Restoras]

Plus, can't you just walk into a gun shop in VT - and leave with a pistol without a shit-ton of bullshit, infringing paperwork???

[Lord Humungus]

It's True: Latinos are Liberals, and Other Important Matters
http://www.latinodecisions.com.....t-matters/

Taken together, these data suggest that stereotypes are in error, and that self-reliance can be consistent with belief in energetic government. The ideology and partisanship of minority Americans, then, are consistent and rational. It is likely, then, that anticipation of a large movement of minorities into the GOP camp is very likely to be in vain. If, for a moment, we can stereotype GOP ideology as "market good, government bad," that spending should be cut and taxes never increased, it's just crystal clear that super-majorities of minority Americans do not agree.

[Doctor Whom]

If, for a moment, we can stereotype GOP ideology as "market good, government bad,"

If only. I like how that blog post steered clear of mentioning GOP positions on social issues.

[John]

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nh.....ces-retire

Hockey star walks away from $77 million guaranteed dollars to stay in Russia. Is life that good over there for NHL stars?

[Brett L]

"... easy, easy chicks for free."

Note that he also made $23M in his prior years.

[RBS]

I think being a pro athlete in Russia is like being in the Politburo.

[John]

It must be. I know he made a lot of money. But $77 million is really something to leave on the table.

[Guy Laguy]

Their abysmal aviation safety record may be a deterrent for some.

[Auric Demonocles]

I heard on the radio that he'll probably make more money in Russia.

[John]

I wonder if that is going to start affecting the NHL. If Russian leagues start paying the same or better money, why would Russian stars come here?

[robc]

He is like the fifth Russian to walk out on his NHL contract recently. So there is no "start" involved.

[John]

The influx of the Russians greatly improved the quality of NHL hockey. If they go back home, that is going to really hurt, especially since the league is grossly over expanded.

[Restoras]

This is correct.

[Lord Humungus]

there have been many rumors of Datsyuk returning to Russia. It would be a shame since put him up there (almost) with Bobby Orr.

[KDN]

It's been an issue since the KHL started. It's why Russians always sink in the draft.

[Drake]

As long as he doesn't stash his cash in Cyprus.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Moscow now has more billionaires than New York City does.

[a better weapon]

12 years remaining on his contract! Gotta love how the NHL player's union doesn't have the league over a barrel quite like other pro sports. NHL contracts are pretty nuts when compared to the restrictive labor agreements of the NBA and NFL.

PS Just put the down payment on a half season tickets package for the Stars yesterday.

[Ted S.]

That contract was negotiated before the lockout. I think there's a new maximum length for contracts now, but I can't remember what that maximum is.

[KDN]

8 years. The structure is also more tightly regulated, so you can't get deals where 50% of the deal is paid in the first two years.

Compare Parise's deal last year to Clarkson's this year.

[Enough About Palin]

Fuck the North Stars.

[KDN]

He's getting ~$20m to play in St. Petersburg next year at a 13% flat tax with no vig taken by the league. He was due to be paid $11m here, with a lot of it taken by the Feds, the state of NJ (he was building a big house in Alpine), and the league to ensure they got a 50/50 cut of players' salaries (NHL Escrow fund). Add in the fact that is wife is dragging him back home because she can't be a trashy TV star here and it's a no brainer for him to go home (though as a Devils fan I hate him for it).

He almost didn't come back this season, which probably would have been better - the Devils could have used his pick on MacKinnon or Drouin instead of that silly ginger goalie.

[John]

The taxes are going to start to make a difference. Watch LaBron James not sign with the Lakers next summer and prog sports writers jump through their asses explaining how California tax rates had nothing to do with it.

[Lord Humungus]

Clinton Leads Christie in Poll Giving Congress Low Marks
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/.....cmpid=yhoo

The Quinnipiac poll gave Clinton, a former first lady and U.S. senator from New York, a 46 percent to 40 percent advantage over Christie, 50, who is seeking re-election this year. A similar survey released in March showed Clinton ahead of Christie, 45 percent to 37 percent.

The survey showed Clinton viewed favorably by 55 percent and unfavorably by 38 percent. Christie had a favorability rating of 45 percent, compared with 18 percent unfavorable.

55 percent? God help the "Republic"

[Brett L]

Get ready for militant deaf stupidity to go to Plaid.

Indiana University scientists have transformed mouse embryonic stem cells into key structures of the inner ear. The discovery provides new insights into the sensory organ's developmental process and sets the stage for laboratory models of disease, drug discovery and potential treatments for hearing loss and balance disorders.

[John]

I think we are what maybe a decade or two from eliminating deafness altogether? Expect some epic stupidity to come out of the deaf community on this.

[tarran]

Remember that episode of CHIPS when Ponch and Jon were dating the deaf chicks who taught them sign language, and they used their newfound knowledge of the language to communicate and thus were able to catch the bad guy at a construction site where the heavy machinery was drowning out speech?

All that will be lost to us.... like tears in the rain.

[Restoras]

Sounds like a really bad porno.

[Bobarian]

The very worst kind -- bad acting, cheesy dialog, and NO SEX.

[Silver Fox]

There's acting in pornos?

[Lord Humungus]

I remember the infamous punk rock episode when Ponch got all hardass law 'n' order.

[Silver Fox]

Makes me wonder what my deaf father would think of this, but I haven't seen him in over a decade now.

[Restoras]

What?

[Zeb]

Question or joke?

[John]

http://online.wsj.com/article/.....html?dsk=y

Connecticut Senator demands company censor its political protest targets.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

A Massachusetts statute provides: "[A shooting] club shall not permit shooting at targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties."

The Texas CHL proficiency test is shooting at human silhouettes.

[tarran]

I think I should start a company making bonobo shaped targets.

[robc]

Ditto for KY.

[Ted S.]

Finland crowns Tango Queen

Here she is at the 2011 Tango Festival, for those of you who want to get a taste of Finnish tango.

[Swiss Servator - past LTC(ret)]

You are the Dancing Queen!... wait, that was a Swede group...

[robc]

Im not sure she is a real Finn Suomi...no double vowels in her name.

[Zeb]

Pakarinen sounds pretty Finnish. And she looks it too.

[Lord Humungus]

Lawmakers say administration's lack of candor on surveillance weakens oversight
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ml?hpid=z1

Some Democrats and civil libertarians have expressed disappointment in what they say is a pattern of excessive secrecy from President Obama. He had pledged to run a more transparent administration than his predecessor, George W. Bush, who signed off on the NSA's controversial warrantless wiretapping program and, with the authorization of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, launched the bulk data-collection program that has continued.

"The national security state has grown so that any administration is now not upfront with Congress," said Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), a senior member of the House Judiciary Committee. "It's an imbalance that's grown in our government, and one that we have to cleanse."

[Marshall Gill]

He had pledged to run a more transparent administration than his predecessor, George W. Bush

He did. Does anyone, at this point, believe for a second that he meant it?

[John]

http://www.buffalonews.com/201.....grams.html

Band programs to be eliminated, but teachers still get their free anti-aging and cosmetic surgeries.

[Brett L]

Surely, they'd be willing to sacrifice this for the children they care so much about, right?

SLD: Its in a legally executed contract and they shouldn't be forced to surrender it.

[John]

No. But they can certainly face public ridicule for not. And all contracts with the government can be terminated for the convenience of the government.

[a better weapon]

No ridicule. Its a small price to pay for the self esteem boost needed for someone throwing themselves into such a thankless, saintly career. /s

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Nah, it's a public contract. Live by the teat, die by the teat.

[Lord Humungus]

The Shady Black Anti-"Amnesty" Rally
http://news.yahoo.com/shady-bl.....00941.html

As a result of the many links between BALA's leaders and the Tanton network, hate-group watchdogs have expressed concern that the organization is merely the latest in a series of minority front groups providing anti-immigration extremists cover from charges of racism. "It's blatant tokenism," says Aaron Flanagan of the Center for New Community. "And tokenism is not a word I use lightly." Henderson is more diplomatic: "It's troubling when opportunists use the economic challenges of the African-American community as cover for ideological and political extremism to align themselves with groups like FAIR, which had their own genesis in the eugenics movement."

The tangle of groups, funders, and leaders in the black anti-immigration effort?as in the broader movement?can be hard to follow. (This is not an accident, asserts Flanagan.) But outfits such as the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Center for New Community have done yeoman's work connecting the dots.

[John]

The only way a black man would not follow the orders his white Prog overseers give him is if some Rethuglican put him up to it.

[Silver Fox]

Progressive logic: minorities and women can't think for themselves, so they have to think for them.

[John]

Exactly. Black people should be up in arms over amnesty. They are the ones who will suffer the most from it. But White Progs expect them to get in the back of the bus and keep quiet.

[Silver Fox]

As someone who's female and disabled [thus a minority by their standards], it really gets on my nerves when they insist that I have no agency.

Progs? I'm perfectly capable of making up my own damn mind, and so are the rest of the wimmins and the meenohritees you adore so much, kthnx.

[Enough About Palin]

"Progressive logic: minorities and women can't think for themselves, so they have to think for them."

You need to press that further to show that this is, as another HyR commentator has shown here, is pure projection,as progressive cannot think for themselves.

[SugarFree]

In the drowned city of Seattle, dreaming Episiarch slumbers no more. You have called him. You have destroyed us all.

[Silver Fox]

No, they can't. But they sure like to believe that they can.

[tarran]

Actually it's really eerie.

Two employers ago, I had a work wife who is a black lesbian. She is really bright and we spent a bunch of time driving together as part of our work and had some very interesting in-depth discussions.

So one day she tells me that she doesn't like to discuss politics with her family because they get into huge arguments. And her explanation was that "with the exception gay rights, I agree on everything with the Republican party. It sucks."

So I whipped out that she should join the Log Cabin Republicans then. At first she accused me of pulling her leg and denied such an organization could exist. Then she got even more upset. She said that if she ever joined a Republican organization her family would disown her - and it's no joke: they weren't happy about her sexual orientation and it took them a long time to accept it.

I found that a very remarkable conversation. Literally her family's culture hated everything about her*, and she could only buck them so far. And she really would have prefered the log-cabin republicans didn't exist so that she had an excuse to be politically homeless.

*except for the color of her skin, and I'm sure that - inter-service trash talk aside - her Navy Seal dad wasn't too ashamed of having an army combat veteran with shrapnel scars as a daughter

[John]

The Democratic Party is like a secular church to a lot of the black community. And that is tragic. It ensures that no one really gives a shit about black voters. The Republicans know they can't get them and the Democrats know they will never leave. The issue for the Democrats is turn out. And they solve that by sowing as much race hate and paranoia as possible.

[CatoTheElder]

The Democratic Party is a coalition of special interests. Race and ethnicity are considered to be distinct, unified special interests in the coalition. Coalitions don't work unless all special interests cooperate in joint action.

Special interest members who fail to cooperate with the coalition are called Uncle Tom.

[a better weapon]

groups like FAIR, which had their own genesis in the eugenics movement.

You know who else had their genesis in the eugenics movement?

[Swiss Servator - past LTC(ret)]

Planned Parenthood?

[Silver Fox]

Shush you.

PP is the progressive's darling. They'll never let a little thing like eugenic and racist history taint their love for it.

[Lord Humungus]

btw, I've noticed that Yahoo News is pushing the Amnesty Bill very hard. The comments, however, are a hoot.

[Fist of Etiquette]

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden is planning to meet with human rights groups today at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport.

Hopefully, those human rights workers are CIA.

[Pro Libertate]

At least one of them is on the payroll. Guaranteed.

[Lord Humungus]

When you have to go, you have to go.

Knife Wielding Man Steals 96 Rolls Of Toilet Paper
http://www.rttnews.com/2149433.....paper.aspx

[sarcasmic]

Maybe he wanted to sell it for a premium on the Venezuelan black market.

[Ted S.]

Is this story from Venezuela?

[a better weapon]

I'd have gone with a sponge on a stick

[Bobarian]

Instead of the knife, or the toilet paper?

[Silver Fox]

Yet another feminist who can't take criticism. Or parody.

[MJGreen]

The "Don't Be That Girl" poster (a parody of the now famous "Don't Be That Guy" campaign) was spotted by professor Lise Gotell, chair of the Department of Women's and Gender Studies, on Monday at the University of Alberta. She promptly alerted the campus police, who in an act of brazen censorship are taking down the posters, and contacted the local media.

It applies just as well to many Americans, but damn it, stop calling the police, Canadians!

[Lord Humungus]

Dominicans Freak Out Over Obama's Gay Ambassador Pick
http://thecable.foreignpolicy......sador_pick

Opposition to President Obama's nominee for U.S. ambassador to the Dominican Republic reached a fever pitch this week as religious organizers stage a "Lunes Negro" or Black Monday protest against James "Wally" Brewster.

If confirmed, Brewster will be the first openly gay ambassador to the country, a prospect that is not going over well with some segments of this conservative Christian country of 9 million people. Local reports indicate that church leaders are pressuring the government to reject Brewster's nomination and calling on the faithful to dress in black on Monday in solidarity against him.

[Tonio]

No problem. They don't have to accredit our ambassador. They also don't have to take our aid money, surplus military equipment, etc.

[wareagle]

so now we're going to use social bribery as a condition? Seems we give to nations that commit far worse offenses than not favoring a gay man as their ambassador.

[Eduard van Haalen]

Congress wouldn't vote to cut off aid to Egypt when it was holding Americans prisoner, so we're going to cut off aid to a country which doesn't like our ambassador?

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

You know, I get that tolerance is great and all, but I wouldn't send a firebrand Lutheran to be the Vatican's ambassador either.

[Eduard van Haalen]

How would they find a firebrand Lutheran nowadays? Dig up the original Luther and turn him into a zombie?

[Brett L]

They can take comfort in knowing that it is also a punishment assignment for Wally.

[Eduard van Haalen]

"Lunes Negro" or Black Monday

Those Dominicans must be racist!

[The Late P Brooks]

A little while ago, Bloomberg interviewed Elizabeth Warrren about her latest brainstorm, which is reintroducing Glass Steagall; co-sponsor- John McCain.
Something something widows and orphans something social justice! It's good to be ruled by geniuses.

[John]

If Fauchahontus and McCain agree about it, what could possibly go wrong?

[Palin's Buttplug]

It is an anti TBTF bank bill, John. Right up your alley. Send her a donation.

[John]

What good would it do to pass new laws when writing a check to Obama ensures that you will never be prosecuted no matter how much money you steal?

[Jordan]

While the Fed exists, it's like trying to fight the tide.

[Restoras]

Yep. Oh, and it's all voluntary. So never mind, just more phoney posturing to be seen DOING SOMETHING! whilst protecting their own re-election cash flows.

[VG Zaytsev]

It is an anti TBTF bank bill, John.

Sure it is, just like Dodd-Frank, and her pet project were.

I seriously can't tell whether she's

a) a retarded half-wit completely oblivious to the damage caused by her ideas

or

b) a mendacious evil genius on GS's payroll.

[Marshall Gill]

B

[Hash Brown]

If they could do this right, I would actually favor it as a moderate corrective to all the monkeying Uncle Sam does with the 1s and 0s in our bank and brokerage accounts. It would make it a lot easier for the little guy (formerly known as the lower middle class) to save with a return that would at least keep pace with inflation.

[Lord Humungus]

'Suspicious' liquid at Guntersville Post Office determined to be K-Y Intense Arousal Gel intended for entertainer
http://blog.al.com/breaking/20.....ersvi.html

Guntersville Police and Hazmat teams responded, retrieving a bag containing several packages with the substance on it. The packages were addressed to someone in the entertainment industry, although that person's name was not released, said Tony Robinson, a USPS postal inspector.

Robinson said he is not sure how the non-toxic substance made the workers ill. He added that, according to USPS policy, the sender would be contacted and advised how to better pack mail in the future.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Robinson said he is not sure how the non-toxic substance made the workers ill.

A chance to get some paid time off?

[Swiss Servator - past LTC(ret)]

CORRECT!

Maybe a sweet taste of Disability cash too!

[Enough About Palin]

"pack mail"

tee hee.

[B.P.]

GUNTersville.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Will Bob McDonnell need to resign?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....to-resign/

This guy was sleazy enough to make Romney's short list for VP. Virginia was essential for a GOP win too.

[some guy]

Yeah, you need to be either better at hiding scandals or a Democrat if you want your political career to survive scandals like these.

[Fluffy]

The McDonnell scandal stuns and amazes me due to its pettiness.

Does this motherfucker know how much money Bill Clinton earns on the speaking circuit?

You're one promotion away from the big chair, where you live like a king for 4 or 8 years, and then you retire to give speeches for TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR, and you are going to take a chance on stealing this minibar shit from the governor's residence?

What the fuck is wrong with you?

If I was the governor of a state - any state - I'd live like fucking Francis of Assisi. You just have too much of a chance of hitting the big score to risk it on trivial nickel and dime shit.

[John]

And meanwhile, every good proggie is all about Terry McCullife, a man literally has never made an honest dollar in his life, being the next governor of VA.

[some guy]

And McCaullife will win because he will successfully portray Cuccinelli as hating women, gays and blacks.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

From what I've heard of him, Cuccinelli will help out there.

[Rasilio]

While it is a common liberal tactic in this case I'm pretty sure it is accurate. Based on what I know about Cuccinelli the only beef he has with the Taliban is the beards and what name they say when they pray.

[Eduard van Haalen]

He's prolife, supports Va's law against SSM, and he doesn't think there's a constitutional right to have sodomy with children (while acknowledging that adults have a constitutional right to sodomize each other in private). That's the debit side of the ledger as far as Reason is concerned.

On the credit side of the ledger there are such minor matters as his legal crusade against Obamacare and EPA overreaching.

I wonder which is more important?

[sarcasmic]

You're never too old to twerk! Trio of grannies attempt the sexy dance craze in hilarious video after watching Miley Cyrus

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/fem.....video.html
I couldn't bring myself to watch it, but I'm sure one of you will.

[Lord Humungus]

that is one bullet that I'm not willing to take.

[a better weapon]

My buddies keep drooling about Miley's "sexy" dance music video. Is there something I'm missing?

[sarcasmic]

I can't find her attractive. Same with Selena Gomez. Just can't.

[a better weapon]

Same with Selena Gomez

Welp, this is where we part. She's top tier girl next door quality.

[BakedPenguin]

Gomez is at least cute, even if she still looks 15 years old.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

What's wrong, does Gomez have more than 1% body fat or something?

[Rasilio]

I'm with you on Miley but Selena is actually kinda cute. Not like supermodel hot but she has a Girl Next Door face that makes her even more attractive IMO.

Miley, I have yet to see her look hot in anything

[SugarFree]

Yes. Your buddies might be gay.

[Lord Humungus]

they like little girls who look like little boys?

wait, you know who else...

[Hash Brown]

Where is barfman when we need him?

[sarcasmic]

'You're a ten in my eyes': Ke$ha flirts with Harry Styles after turning up for Grimmy interview in see-through top and sheer stockings

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvs.....kings.html
It's lost enough weight to almost be attractive, but it still drinks its own urine. Kiss that.

[Silver Fox]

What's with the Borg look she's got there?

[DJF]

She has a bad glitter infection.

[a better weapon]

Nope.

[sarcasmic]

NYPD cop, 29, 'plied girl, 16, with alcohol and sexually assaulted her before his wife found them in bed together'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new.....ether.html
New York's finest.

[Brett L]

I love how the Fail points out that the age of consent in New York is 17. As if giving liquor to an underaged (for drinking) girl would be more legal. I could get into the moral arguments, but we're talking cops here.

[Jon Lester]

Here's one for you. The blogger behind "Conservative Black Chick" got conned by someone here in Athens:

http://onlineathens.com/blotte.....t-10-grand

[Palin's Buttplug]

She can't be too bright but give her credit for coming up with a scheme to exploit conservatives need for a turncoat.

[Swiss Servator - past LTC(ret)]

"need for a turncoat".

So, you are now the prog version of American now, eh bigot?

[Jordan]

Reading comprehension fail.

[Palin's Buttplug]

No, her whole "conservative black chick" shtick is the scheme she came up with to land speaking engagements and sell books.

[Jordan]

Yes, all that evidence you provided has me convinced. Oh wait.

[Fluffy]

Quick, decide whether you want to say something racist about this story, or spew homophobic insults at John.

BECAUSE TOLERANCE

[John]

The homophobic insults are my favorite. As if anyone on this board other than shreek would give a shit less if my wife's kink was watching me on the low down.

It is really pathetic. People like shreek assume everyone is not in the prog tribe must automatically hate gays and blacks and such. So they therefore think throwing out a homophobic slur is the ultimate bomb to drop in front of a bunch of non progs.

[SugarFree]

shrike is just employing "intersectionality" with his hate. He needs to call you a cripple and a rich elitist to be fully inclusive.

[Palin's Buttplug]

I don't give a fuck about tolerance.

I am anti-PC as they come. I am not a fucking progressive as much as you need to think that.

[John]

http://innissfls.blogspot.com/.....mines.html

It is always fun when the race hustlers turn race, class and priveldge language on feminists. It is like Wolfman versus Dracula or something.

[RBS]

I like how she's a Princeton grad, went UCLA law and also had the time and money to get an LLM.

[John]

http://www.powerlineblog.com/a.....rights.php

Obama supporters in California tolled into signing a petition to repeal the Bill of Rights. Or where they trolled? In fairness, they probably don't even know what the BOR is. But they do know if it is getting in dear leader's way, it needs to go.

[Auric Demonocles]

Which do you want to listen to: a piece of paper that's like 100 years old or something, or a cool, young, hip, articulate President Obama?

[sarcasmic]

The Democrats' emails never discuss issues of public policy, or offer evidence or arguments in support of the Democrats' policies. Rather, they consist of nothing but tribal appeals to advance "President Obama's agenda."

Principles shminciples. Principals are all that matter.

[John]

It is all tribal. That is all they have. If their brain dead supporters ever thought about actual policies, they would be at each other's throats.

[sarcasmic]

It all goes to show that as a species we're three steps out of the cave with a lot of toys.

[John]

For sure. Most of the world thinks tribally. The idea of judging each person by their individual merit and not by their tribe, is a total outlier idea in human history.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I think it is more complex than that. As a supporter of Ron Paul I used to get emails asking to "help Ron Paul do this" without much policy argument. The idea was not so much 'tribalism' as that if I was getting the email I likely had demonstrated some commitment to Paul such that they could count on me keeping up with what he is up to.

[some guy]

That's what representation is about, though. Everyone can't be directly involved in the legislative process. If there is to be a legislature, then you have to pick someone to represent you. In other words you have to trust someone. It would be nice if we could do away with legislation, but that would require some legislating. So, Ron Paul has to make appeals like that one if he wants to get anything done and he has to hope that his past policy actions have earned your trust.

[sarcasmic]

It's the soul of the American Experiment. Which, by the way, will be dead in a generation.

[John]

Sadly true. IT is the only reason America worked and worked so well. We are or at least used to be the one place in the world that you could move to and immediately become an American. I could move to France and live there for the next 40 years and never be French. But a Frenchman can move here and be an American just by deciding that is what he is.

It is an absolutely beautiful thing. And we are grinding it into dust in the name of politics.

[Jon Lester]

Turns out Mark Dice is kind of like a young Texe Marrs, prolifically authoring and releasing books in the conspiracy genre, but that, of course, does not excuse all the people who fell for his petition stunt.

[John]

http://go.bloomberg.com/politi.....e-ratings/

Obama's approval ratings down among women. Apparently the free birth control isn't as good as they thought it would be.

[Auric Demonocles]

Solution: birth control, plus a cash reimbursement. You don't expect women to pay for the transportation to pick up their birth control, do you?

[John]

The of the many stupid things about that whole affair was that if anything keeps women from using the pill it is the requirement to go to the doctor every year to get a prescription. Many women, just like many men, hate going to the doctor and having to let some stranger look up their holy of holys. So many of them, especially young women who may not have a lot of money or really much need to go to the doctor don't use the pill as a way to avoid it.

If you want to more women to use the pill, make it over the counter. But doing that would cut into the profit margin of planned parenthood. And we can't have that.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I agree the best, and most libertarian, policy option is this, but I'm curious, do you have evidence Planned Parenthood opposes this? Usually the voices I hear opposed to this are conservative religious types. That's certainly how the debate over 'emergency contraception' over the counter played out.

[John]

I don't know that they oppose it. But I have never heard them push for it. Libertarians are the only ones I know of that seem to be pushing this idea. Ironically, PP is all about making the morning after pill OTC. But I have never heard them push for the pill to be OTC.

Other than the craziest of SOCONs, I can't see anyone other than doctors who make money off this objecting to making the pill OTC. And even the SOCONs could be largely bought off by making it OTC for just women over 18.

Maybe they are pushing it. And if PP is, I take that back. But I don't understand why feminist and PP in general don't make a bigger push for this. It would help women a lot more than making the morning after pill OTC. And it is less controversial.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I don't know either, but the arguments between the SoCons and PP over emergency contraception going over the counter would seem to apply to regular birth control. The SoCons screamed that "little Sally 12 year old would be buying BC without her parents knowing." Seeing as how SoCons object to things like condom distribution on the same grounds I bet they oppose BC OTC and PP does not, but that it's not in the forefront right now.

But I bet you're spot on about the doctors. They have a lot of pull and this is a regular gravy train for them.

[John]

But you can avoid that whole issue of Sally by just saying you have to be 18 to buy it. And this is one time the SOCONs have a point. The authority of parents and the sanctity of the family is a valid concern. Children are not adults and their parents get to make the decisions for them. People have a right to raise their kids as they see fit. Allowing kids to do shit on their own infringes on that right.

Regardless, it is a stupid debate that affects very few people. The vast majority of women who want the pill are over 18. Just make it over 18 OTC and take away that objection from the SOCONs. Make it about improving things rather than sticking it to your political enemies for once.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Do you think we should require parental notification for purchase of any OTC item? Any item?

"Sorry son, you can't have that Superman comic without express written consent from a guardian!"

[John]

But birth control isn't "any item". Do we allow 11 year old kids to buy alcohol? Guns? Your argument applies to those products equally well. We draw the line somewhere and birth control is not an unreasonable place to do it.

If children don't have the legal capacity to consent to sex, they don't have the capacity to buy birth control pills. So at the very least, it shouldn't be OTC for anyone under the age of consent in the state, whatever that is.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Why is BC like alcohol or guns and not like, say, aspirin which a kid can buy?

[John]

BC is like that because it is for many people such a moral issue. Look kids can't consent to surgery. A 15 year old girl couldn't get a boob job without her parents consent. But she should be able to buy birth control pills?

You either believe parents have a right to raise their kids or you don't. You can't say "well because I think it is okay for kids to use BC, it totally okay for the state to shit all over the parents who don't agree with me by letting their kids buy such without permission". No. People have a right to raise their kids. And doing that means kids don't have the authority to consent to some things.

And for the record, if they passed a law that said no kid could by a candy bar without their parents' consent, I think that would be an unnecessary and dumb law but not an immoral one. The ultimate authority of whether the kid gets a candy bar is that kid's parents. So making them consent, while petty, is not wrong in principle.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Kids can't consent to surgery not because "it is a moral issue to many parents" but because the risks are far greater.

For many parents it is a moral issue for their kid to buy a comic book or certain books, should we make those contingent on parental notifications?

[BakedPenguin]

...you have to be 18 to buy [BC].

I think age of consent would be better.

[Jon Lester]

Except that biology already decided how and when bodily functions would work, long before man arbitrated such things. Setting an age limit is like inviting teen pregnancy.

[Zeb]

Allowing kids to do shit on their own infringes on that right.

Oh no, not this again. Parents absolutely have that right. But the rest of the world has no obligation to help them out in particular cases.
Some parents don't want their kids to eat candy (or purchase any number of other products). But children are generally allowed to buy candy and most other things on their own without explicit permission of their parents. It's the parents' job to keep their kids away from things they don't want them to have, not the rest of the world's.

[Nikkis enthusiastic dissent]

You will pry OTC birth control from the AMA's cold, dead hands. Or not, as the case may be. Various reproductive rights movements do butt up against doctors and their lobbyists at times--I've read in the past few years about some states being pressured to disallow or discourage births outside hospitals, for example--but this is one place I think they are not pushing hard enough. People are far too easily cowed by doctors in matters like these.

I did see it pick up a little bit of steam, though, when whatever the relevant board is changed its recommended frequency of pap smears from once per year to once every two years for most women. That means you have to go to the doctor every year for your pill refill, but half the time you aren't getting a pelvic exam. I think as more women realize they are showing up to pay a fee to get weighed, questioned, and a permission slip only, this may get more traction.

[John]

I would think so Nikki. The pill can have some nasty side effects on some women. But if you are or likely to be one of those women, chances are very high you know it and will want to go to a doctor. Everyone else, it is pointless and stupid.

[Rasilio]

There is actually another reason why Wymens rights groups don't want the pill OTC.

While it would bring down the price of BC, probably by around a third if they made it OTC it would also mean that Insurance would no longer cover it.

That I am aware of no Insurance company covers OTC medications unless you have a diagnosis of a specific condition and a perscription to cover it. There was actually somewhat of a kerfuffle over some of the newer antacids and allergy medications when they went OTC because it meant that the people who had been relying on them for years all of a sudden went from paying a $25 or less copay every month to paying $40 - 60 for a months supply OTC

[mad libertarian guy]

But I don't understand why feminist and PP in general don't make a bigger push for this.

Because the pill can cause side effects and complications in 1 of every 10 gazillion women, all wymyn NEEDZ to go to the doctor because WAR ON WYMYN!!!!

[Auric Demonocles]

That's also why that specific women will need a specific and more expensive type of BC, so we should assume birth control costs for all women are that high.

[some guy]

Making the pill OTC would be tough. Frankly, the FDA would prefer it if everything was prescription only. I'm surprised they haven't started making some things doctor-administered only. You know, for the children.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Good point, it seems to be going the other way. Look at the nonsense with Sudafed.

[some guy]

Exactly. I guess that one was Congress' fault, but then, all the bucks stop there when it comes to drug classification.

[Rasilio]

Not to mention be a big boost to evil insurance companies bottom lines because it means the would no longer have to cover it

[Lord Humungus]

needs more cherry flavoring.

[mad libertarian guy]

Evaluating teachers on test scores is DANGEROUS!!!

"No excuse" has been a mantra from people who present themselves as advocates for "reforming" America's public schools. And the term is a "pillar" of more than one popular charter school franchise.

The term originated from the belief that "the schoolteacher's age-old excuse" was that factors outside the classroom ? such as "not enough money, indifferent parents, kids arriving at school not ready to learn, and bureaucracy" ? were reasons for poor test scores and school dropouts, rather than, focusing on the real, unaddressed cause of low achievement: teacher "malperformance."

Over the last 20 years, "no excuse" has become the law of the land as state after state ? incentivized by Obama administration policies such as Race to the Top ? is now rolling out evaluation systems that make teachers the ones who are most accountable for rises and falls in student test scores.

Classroom teachers have raised the alarm, in increasingly louder voices, that blaming "ineffective" teachers and "failing schools" for systemic dysfunction in public education is not only unfair, it's downright "dangerous."

Scare quotes ahoy!

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Teachers are responsible for good results. Outside factors are responsible for poor results. That's probably in their contracts.

[sarcasmic]

Parents are responsible for poor results. If only children could be taken from their parents and raised by the professionals in government camps. That would fix everything.

[Silver Fox]

It's like they think things like job performance just don't apply to them.

Oh wait. They do think that.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I can see why they might want a more precise job performance measure than overall test scores of the students given the vast differences in socioeconomic status different schools have to deal with.

[sarcasmic]

A Tony by any other name is still a moron.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

You are really hung up on this Tony guy, huh?

It's hardly some unlibertarian idea that student outcomes have much more to do with a kid's family environment than with what some public teacher does.

[sarcasmic]

Whatever, Tony. A tiger can't change its stripes.

[Restoras]

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bo Cara Esq.]

You're really obsessed.

[Auric Demonocles]

If that's the case, fire all the teachers and just hire some cheap guys with GEDs.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Then maybe parents should get a big cut of teachers' salaries.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Well, yes, I think one of the best arguments against raising teacher pay or that coupled with 'hiring more qualified teachers' is to note teachers can't make much of a difference either way.

[califernian]

get rid of the public schools and none of this is an issue.

[Auric Demonocles]

It's almost like you could do some sort of baseline for the students and judge the teacher based on how well they improved from the start of the year.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I admit that's better, but certainly still problematic. If it's just to flag students who get no better under a teacher, that sounds good to me. But if we are going to compare the gains from class A in a neighborhood where parents care and gains in class B where they don't, I think that would end up punishing teachers who might be struggling against a greater tide.

[BakedPenguin]

The "parents vs. teachers" dichotomy is false. Really good and really bad teachers do make a difference. However, if the parents don't give a shit, odds are the kid won't, either.

Watch films like Waiting for Superman or The Lottery (education documentary, not the Shirley Jackson story. You see dozens of eager, inner-city parents who truly want a decent education for their kids, and education the crappy inner-city public schools cannot provide. They cast their hopes on a slim chance of getting their child into one of the new charter schools. These are the families whose kids could use good teachers.

[BakedPenguin]

"...an education the crappy inner city public schools cannot provide."

[Bo Cara Esq.]

"However, if the parents don't give a shit, odds are the kid won't, either."

Once you concede this it seems odd to put a lot of weight on whether teacher A's class does better than teacher B's class.

I think the big problem is to fall into the trap that a lot of progressives, and many conservatives, fall into: this idea that everything that is less than desirable is a 'crisis' that needs a 'big solution.'

Schools give some kids a chance they might not have had otherwise, that was the whole idea behind them. Thinking they were supposed to erase all performance gaps or greatly improve kids with parents that don't care is to think like a progressive. If we are going to have public schools we should try to weed out waste and egregious teachers, pay a decent salary, and hope everyone does the best they can, but resist the urge to throw money or testing schemes or what have you to "solve" the "crisis" of some kids and schools doing worse than others.

[Marshall Gill]

"However, if the parents don't give a shit, odds are the kid won't, either."

Once you concede this it seems odd to put a lot of weight on whether teacher A's class does better than teacher B's class.

Actually, once you concede that an education is basically up to the parents and children you loose the entire "reasoning" behind universal "education".

But since Teachers are the Salt of the Earth who really, really, really care, let's just forget that and pretend that stealing from one group to pay for others can be made to work or is moral.

[CatoTheElder]

A bit off topic, but isn't it a bit hypocritical that the folks who argue that testing is downright dangerous in a public school setting insist that home-school students be routinely tested to ensure that they are receiving a proper education? (That is, if they would concede the legitimacy of home schooling at all.)

[mad libertarian guy]

My grandfather worked both before and after school on the farm in rural Florida where he attended a 1-room schoolhouse with virtually no funding and taught by my great grandfather who didn't go to college at all. Socioeconomic status has no bearing on whether one can learn math or not. Either a teacher is doing his job or he isn't.

Shut the fuck up.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

"Socioeconomic status has no bearing on whether one can learn math or not."

Ironically, the branch of math called "statistics" suggests otherwise in general.

[Zeb]

It probably has some bearing on whether someone will learn math (statistically anyway), but has very little bearing on whether one can.

[CatoTheElder]

Slogans like "No Child Left Behind" and "Race to the Top" suggest that policymakers have no concern for rigorous statistics.

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." RP Feynman

[CatoTheElder]

^THIS.

[John]

I will say this, aren't students at least somewhat responsible for poor results? Sure it can be the teacher's fault. But it doesn't have to be. So however you evaluate teachers, student test results shouldn't be the only factor.

[RBS]

Whoa, slow down there John, we can't go around judging these children. How else are they going to learn it's always someone else's fault?

[sarcasmic]

Poor results are because of bad parenting. It's the only explanation. Teachers have good intentions, so the results of their work are above reproach. That leaves parents.

[John]

Sometimes it is true. I know several teachers. And from the stories they tell me, parents are often the worst.

I stand behind no one in my dislike of public schools and public school teachers. But even if the teachers were good, you can't teach anything in a world of every gets a trophy and how dare you question or fail my little snowflake.

[Marshall Gill]

I stand behind no one in my dislike of public schools and public school teachers

You didn't even use the word "hate". You stand way behind me.

[CatoTheElder]

Hate is far too mild. Loathing comes close, though.

[Brett L]

Well, I would agree with you, except that these tests are supposed to be the minimum standard for achieving grade level performance. So its not like you need to be an average student to pass. Everyone who passes 3rd grade is supposed to be able to pass the 3rd grade test. Either the system needs to fail more kids, or change this to an average standard. But if they were graded on all of their passing students passing the test, we are really only holidng them to grading at a minimum standard.

[a better weapon]

Everyone on the progressive side freely admits that the system is dysfunctional, but when it comes time to discuss ways to change it, it's to keep the status quo but with more money all the way down.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I don't want more money all the way down, that's for sure. My position is: don't expect miracles. Weed out egregious teachers, sure, but after that realize that kids are a function of their family environments more than anything else and chill. Some students will do better than others, life goes on. We don't need a "solution" to that fact of life, whether from the left (more money) or the right (more testing).

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

If "chilling" also involves ensuring teachers don't extort exorbitant taxes out of all of us, then fine. If they're just going to be fancy babysitters, then we can pay them $12.50 an hour.

[Marshall Gill]

My younger sister makes $45/hour plus benefits teaching Kindergarten.

[Zeb]

It seems to me that if you did a test at the beginning of the year and another at the end, you could judge a teacher on how much the students improved and eliminate most of the outside factors. A good teacher should have some positive effect on most or all of their students, even if those students don't have the best starts in life, no?

[mad libertarian guy]

We refuse to allow parents to help their children outside of school because we're too fucking lazy to write a different test from year to year.

Howard Kass would like to help his son, who struggles with math at Churchill High School in Potomac.

Kass and his son's tutor want to see the mistakes the boy, who just finished ninth grade, made on his tests, but his teachers won't send the tests home because they want to use them again. Kass has asked that the policy be changed but has been stifled by what I consider Montgomery County's obsession with test security, a problem for many parents.

Yes. Our teachers are definitely "overworked."

[RBS]

My best friend is a teacher and he readily admits that it's the easiest job he's ever had, aside from middle school kids generally smelling awful.

[Pro Libertate]

I substituted in between jobs before law school. Including some gigs that lasted a few weeks. The discipline part is the worst (especially for subs, of course), but the hours are pretty easy compared to any other F/T job I've had. I suppose the administrative crap can be a pain, too.

My teacher friends mostly bitch about pay--they don't act like they're really overworked, especially since other people in our circle work much longer hours than they do. And have a lot more stress than some annoying kids. A buddy of mine--very conservative, by the way--has loads of contempt for most of his co-teachers, because he did other things before teaching.

[RBS]

He doesn't really bitch about anything since it lets do what he really loves: coach football, he's the OC at the high school.

[Pro Libertate]

Ah, ha!

My trig/analytic geometry teacher was a football coach. He was actually a pretty decent teacher.

[Auric Demonocles]

I bet he made sure the DBs always took the right angles.

[RBS]

He also let a known H&R commenter be a special guest speaker a couple of years ago.

[Pro Libertate]

Wow, that's radical.

[Auric Demonocles]

Those kids were probably all getting penalties like crazy for the next few games, not sticking to the plays, and robbing the other kids while they were in the showers.

[Pro Libertate]

Probably all armed, too.

[Auric Demonocles]

Must have been Hernandez' coach.

[Zeb]

Good teachers work hard. My mom was a techer for 30 somethign years and was pretty much at the school from 8-5 at least, every day of the school year. I certainly wouldn't say overworked. But I know of very few teachers who work less than 8 hour days.

[Auric Demonocles]

I had a binder from my physics class in high school that I gave to a friend who took the class the following year. She got an A despite learning almost nothing.

[Pro Libertate]

As a parent, I've seen this quite a bit. The kids have friends who have excellent grades but have tremendous gaps in their knowledge and have trouble on standardized tests.

[Auric Demonocles]

Well, she did very well on the "standardized" tests that the teacher gave...

[Pro Libertate]

It's actually pretty distressing to see. We had some of that mindless success when I was in school, of course, but it really seems that the system rewards and promotes the wrong things.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who was frustrated with how slow school progressed in K-12 or how little interest there was in helping the advanced kids be, well, advanced. And I was in the gifted program and all of that.

[Auric Demonocles]

It was awful. I hated school because it was such a waste of my time. Heaven forbid they let me just take the final exam and prove I could already do the math they wanted to make me spend the next year learning.

BTW: The friend from my story is now married to my cousin, and they are both teachers.

[Auric Demonocles]

My cousin also being the assistant coach at my old high school's football "program".

[BakedPenguin]

I quit school halfway through the 10th grade. Later, I got my GED without taking any classes - just taking the test. I'd done no studying of anything in between (with the exceptions of rock music and homemade bongs.)

[RBS]

School was very slow and boring until I went to boarding school for high school.

[robc]

Fortunately, I had a 10th grade math teacher who told my parents at the October parents/teacher meeting: "He should skip pre-calc next year and go straight into Calculus, he will be bored otherwise." It was fun, it took my a full 6 weeks or so to really catch up to my normal level of dominating the class.

Of course, the downside was I didnt have a math class to take my senior year.

[John]

And consider this. Monkey County is one of the richest counties in America and Churchill High School is nearly completely white and upper middle and upper class. It is probably in the top quarter of all public high schools in America.

If things are this bad there, how bad must they be in the really bad schools?

[Silver Fox]

Don't worry John. More money will fix this problem.

Someday.

[mad libertarian guy]

"Badass Teachers" are against teachers being evaluated via student tests because they are against "corporate entities that have a contempt for authentic teaching and learning."

The group's mission is explained on its Facebook page, which says that the organization was
? created to give voice to every teacher who refuses to be blamed for the failure of our society to erase poverty and inequality through education. BAT members refuse to accept assessments, tests and evaluations created and imposed by corporate driven entities that have contempt for authentic teaching and learning.

Our goals: BATs aim to reduce or eliminate the use of high stakes testing, increase teacher autonomy in the classroom and work to include teacher and family voices in legislative decision-making processes that affect students.

I guess teaching your students to correctly solve a math equation is just front for corporate America to keep teachers poor.

[Stormy Dragon]

Artisanal teaching!

[mad libertarian guy]

Don't worry. These "strikers" are just following standard practice. We're not incentivizing their presence here at all.

St. Thomas also questioned the characterization of the Good Jobs protests as a strike, noting that the organization paid the protesting workers $125 apiece.

Zoe Bridges-Curry, a Good Jobs spokeswoman, said the payments are standard in labor disputes and said workers delivered strike notices to employers.

"It's common practice for strikers to receive remuneration for the time they are on strike so they can cover their basic needs," she said. Supporters from the community did not receive compensation, she said.

Of course the biggest complaint is that it isn't fair that people who work only 166 8-hour days a year can't afford to live in one of the country's most expensive places to live.

[Raven Nation]

You don't need to know anything about cricket for this. From the live commentary of the current England-Australia match (England overwhelming favorites to win):

"'England desperately needs someone who is not afraid of hitting the ball,' says John Marsh. 'Another dismal performance.' Pressure showing? England were more hyped than 2008 Obama going into this series."

[alittlesense]

"...desperately needs someone who is not afraid of hitting the ball," sounds a lot like this season's Phillies.

[some guy]

Back by unpopular demand: Your Friday Reason Challenge!

Get through Mike Lupica's nonsense without grinding your teeth into dust.

Shorter Lupica: "I hope Zimmerman spends the rest of his life in jail even though I openly admit that there's plenty of reasonable doubt in the case."

[some guy]

Also, is there anything to this report from infowars that the judge badgered Zimmerman? Did anyone see it? Is this really that unprecedented?

[Night Elf Mohawk]

It was... odd, that's for sure.

[some guy]

Any lawyers around care to comment on the chances of a mistrial over this, or any other issue?

[Night Elf Mohawk]

It's a little late for a mistrial. Both sides have rested.

[some guy]

So it would have to be taken up in appeals?

[Night Elf Mohawk]

It wasn't in front of the jury and Zimmerman didn't testify. I can't imagine a scenario in which it would be reversible error. I didn't watch every moment and have no idea whether she committed reversible error. I doubt it matters since any reversal would probably be based on a conviction not supported by the facts. A conviction here would be nothing more than emotion trumping the facts.

[free2booze]

The jury was out of the room when that went on, so probably no chance.

[RBS]

I got this far:

George Zimmerman was an overheated pretend cop with a very real gun who followed a 17-year-old black kid in a hoodie after dispatchers told him he didn't need to

[some guy]

You learned everything you need to know about Lupica's position on the matter.

He goes on to invoke Florida's "dim-bulb" stand-your-ground law and also compares Zimmerman to Bernhard Goetz.

[Fatty Bolger]

Understand that in Lupica's mind, Zimmerman was already guilty of a terrible crime just for carrying a gun. So of course he has to go down for murder for using it, even if there is little or no proof that it wasn't self defense. It's only "logical."

[John]

See sarcasmic and I's conversation above. It is all tribal for these people. Lubica is incapable of judging the case by its facts. All he sees is tribe. And Martin is in Lubica's tribe and Zimmerman isn't. Therefore, Zimmerman has to go to jail.

[some guy]

Totally agree. It's just really hard to watch someone say "We'll never know exactly what happened that night, but Zimmerman deserves to go to jail for 30 years anyway." FYTW is supposed to be a little more veiled than that. I think Lubica is also seeing this from the gun issue side of things. Even if there was video of Martin bashing Zimmerman's head into a curb, Lupica would still want a conviction because he thinks carrying a gun should be illegal, even if it isn't.

[John]

Guns are certainly part of it. But, if the races were reversed and a thugish white kid with a criminal history had attacked a middle class black man doing neighborhood watch in his community, Lubica would be all about reasonable doubt.

[some guy]

Oh, sure. Tribalism trumps all. Other issues are brought in selectively, as needed.

[Joe M]

I's? Really? There's a special word for that.

[Lord Humungus]

even my old man, who is pretty old-school, has been infected by the anti-Zimmerman slant.

"Why was he following him?" he asked.

Me: Neighborhood watch, private property, self-defense, etc, etc.

him: Well, it's still wrong.

[some guy]

It would be interesting if GZ ended up convicted of some minor offense like assault or stalking or something, but got off on homicide charges because Martin escalated the conflict. Of course, there isn't even any evidence that GZ is guilty of even a minor offense.

[Ska]

Mike Lupica was shitty as a sportswriter for the NY Daily News. I wouldn't expect his political opinion writing to somehow be good.

[The Late P Brooks]

Classroom teachers have raised the alarm, in increasingly louder voices, that blaming "ineffective" teachers and "failing schools" for systemic dysfunction in public education is not only unfair, it's downright "dangerous."

A danger to whom?

[Fatty Bolger]

HuffPo Poll: 59 percent support 20-week abortion ban

Fifty-nine percent of Americans support banning abortions past 20 weeks (five months), including 41 percent who strongly favor doing so, according to a survey conducted for the Huffington Post. Just 30 percent of respondents oppose such a law, with 21 percent strongly opposing.

[John]

If you banned post 20 week abortions, a lot of the debate about abortion would go away in this country.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I doubt that. Life starts at conception is a pretty big component of the pro-life movement.

[Auric Demonocles]

Or you know, science.

But the idea that "personhood" starts at conception is much smaller. The true pro-lifers would still want to move the line, but they would have a lot fewer allies.

[John]

Yes. Then the debate really would be about a bunch of cells and most people would find the case uncompelling. But if you are talking about something that has a heart, brain, arms and legs, the argument gets very compelling.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

A lot fewer? I'm not sure about that.

[Rasilio]

He did say "A lot", not all.

A very small percentage of the population will always oppose all abortions (maybe 7 or 8%), and an even smaller group will always oppose any restrictions on abortion (3 - 5% I'd guess) but you could get a plenty broad consensus on a law that eliminated or at least heavily restricted abortions after 20 weeks

[SugarFree]

If you banned post 20 week abortions, a lot of the debate about abortion would go away in this country.

Did you get high before going to work this morning?

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

I'd be happy with that.

[Marshall Gill]

Did you get high before going to work this morning?

Of course. Doesn't everyone?

[Enough About Palin]

No.

[Jordan]

Since I never follow the abortion debate, is the 5 month threshold supposed to be a big deal to pro-choicers? I'm pro-choice, and it seems to me that 5 months is more than enough time to make up your mind.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

http://www.slate.com/articles/.....fects.html

[Fluffy]

I'm sympathetic to that argument, but I'm also pretty sure that if 20 weeks became the standard, industrious men of science would come up with ways to test for these abnormalities two weeks earlier than is presently done.

[some guy]

Or we could ban it at 24 weeks. The number of children that survive being born that young is vanishingly small.

[Rasilio]

Yeah but that threshold will be pushed lower as our knowledge and technology advances.

My personal opinion is that abortion should be legal with no restrictions up to 20 weeks (I'm on the fence on the whole parental notification thing for minors seeking abortions), restricted to cases of medical necessity between weeks 20 and 30 with the restriction being placed on the DR not the woman (the DR would have to justify the medical need to a review board after the fact) and then illegal after the 30th week.

[Rich]

It's a difficult decision, Jordan. Better give 'em a full *year*.

[Auric Demonocles]

It is when evil Republicans in evil Texas try to make an evil law that they can use as ammo against the evil Republican candidate in '16.

[SugarFree]

is the 5 month threshold supposed to be a big deal to pro-choicers?

Not really. What they are worried about is that it will be the camel's nose for an all out ban.

Try this on for size: "If you banned 'assault' weapons, a lot of the debate about gun control would go away in this country." Does that pass the laugh test?

[John]

I will try that fluffy. And I object to that because I think there is nothing wrong with people owning assault weapons. I also object to it because it is a pointless law that wouldn't actually keep anyone but law abiding people from owning assault weapons.

Following your logic, no one should ever compromise on anything. The other side is unlikely to go away and will always be free to come back and ask for more. That is how politics work.

By your logic, if abortion were illegal in all circumstances, the pro life people would be totally justified in refusing to even discuss legalizing abortion for medical reasons because of the danger that the pro-choice people will use that as a camel's nose to legalize all abortions.

Well maybe, but the pro life people would be being unreasonable fanatics in that situation, unless they had a good reason to say why doing it is a bad idea. "This might lead to more" is not a good reason standing alone.

[SugarFree]

That you don't like abortion doesn't invalidate the analogy. I understand that you have difficulty accepting that simple fact.

The vast majority of abortion opponents want a total ban, say they want a total ban, advocate for a total ban, and will use the government to accomplish this end.

What the problem with me taking them at their word?

[Auric Demonocles]

I'm impressed that you haven't called anyone a slut hater yet.

[SugarFree]

You don't see that nasty little tendency running through the abortion threads? Or the slutspolsion that was a huge part of the Fluke nonsense?

OK. Sure. Cool story.

[Pro Libertate]

What, are you disputing Fluke's whorishness? Come, look in her eyes and despair with me.

[John]

I have no doubt that is what they want. But the fact that they want that doesn't mean the banning abortion past 20 weeks is not the right thing to do. If you could convince me that banning assault weapons really would make the world a better place and that merely owning an assault weapon was a bad thing, I would support it even though I know the gun grabbers want to ban all weapons.

It is either a good idea or it is not. The fact I oppose an assault weapons ban means you perfectly justified in saying "John likes assault weapons and see no problem with people owning them.". Yeah, when it comes to guns, I am an uncompromising fanatic. Guilty as charged.

The same thing applies to abortion. If you think abortions should be legal after 20 weeks, it is because you think such things are a good thing and should be allowed. And if you think that, you are fanatic on the issue.

[SugarFree]

I have no doubt that is what they want. But the fact that they want that doesn't mean the banning abortion past 20 weeks is not the right thing to do.

It's like you go out of your way to miss the point.

[John]

No SF, you miss point. Read the whole post. "This might lead to more" is not a good reason not to do something that is otherwise the right thing to do. Look at the example of assault weapons ban. If the idea had any merits on its own, saying "well the gun grabbers won't stop here" wouldn't be a very compelling argument against it.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

The vast majority of abortion opponents want a total ban

Only if you define "opponents" that way.

If you oppose abortions past 20 weeks are you an "abortion opponent"?

[Eduard van Haalen]

Eventually, if things go as they have been, if you oppose abortions in the *fourth* trimester you'll be an antichoice fanatic.

[Auric Demonocles]

A lot of the debate probably would go away, but that by itself doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

The same argument that applies to owning handguns applies to owning assault weapons. It's still your right to own things as long as you aren't another person with it.

That's not analogous in the abortion case, unless you think the state of the fetus's personhood hasn't changed. If you don't think personhood changes between conception and 5 months you're at one extreme or the other, and in a minority.

[John]

A lot of the debate probably would go away, but that by itself doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

This is true. But I think given what we know about fetal development, there are some pretty compelling arguments that it is the right thing to do.

I have yet to hear a compelling argument for why "birth" is the proper demarcation for the beginning of life. Nothing about the fetus changes during the birthing process. It doesn't gain any abilities or become any more human like. So, I can't see any reason for why that should be the line other than it is convenient.

I understand that conception is probably a pretty bad line too or at the very least one that is most people are not going to be convinced by. But brain activity? The ability to survive outside the womb? Aren't those much more compelling and logical lines for when life is created than when the child happens to go down the birth canal?

[SugarFree]

OK. I'll write for the cheap seats.

Pro-choice no want to compromise because pro-choice know it get them no relief from pro-life. It not about abortion right or wrong it about trust in political opponents. Just like we no trust gun grabbers when gun grabbers say they only want compromise, they no trust pro-lifers when they lie and say they only want compromise.

Why both gun lovers and pro-choicers no trust opponents? BECAUSE THE OTHER SIDE FUCKING LIES CONSTANTLY!

[John]

SF,

And the pro choice people don't lie? Couldn't you write that same paragraph about the pro choice people? The pro choice people totally lie. They don't want abortion to be rare. They want it to be common and paid for by the tax payer. And most of them want it legal because they don't want children they consider to be undesirables being born.

If you think the only reason they won't agree to a 20 week ban is because they can't trust the evil pro lifers, you are kidding yourself. They won't agree to a 20 week ban because they think post 20 week abortions are a good thing and want more of them. They just lie and don't like to admit it publicly because the position is politically unpopular.

[Auric Demonocles]

Okay, I take back the compliment I paid you earlier.

[robc]

The analogy is invalid.

A gun ban is a bad idea, period.

With very few exceptions, everyone agrees that past a certain point killing the child becomes infanticide.

Arguing over where the line should be is entirely different than the assault weapon analogy.

[robc]

However, I will say that the pro-life people screw up when they start adding other shit into the bill, like hospital requirements.

Pass a 20-week ban, with no additional stuff added on. Make it ENTIRELY about the time frame and not about other abortion issues and it shuts down most of the arguments made by the pro-choicers.

Then they are only stuck with the slippery slope argument and fuck em at that point.

They can fight against the 15-week ban next time around.

[SugarFree]

And, as I explained a dozen times yesterday, if all Texas and Wisconsin were doing is banned in 20-weeks there could be an argument about that. But they are attempting to put in place regulatory burdens that would close most clinics in both states.

So saying the only debate is about 20-weeks is dishonest.

[robc]

Due to threading, Im not sure which of my posts you are responding to, but I think you are agreeing with me.

[robc]

And since threaded, not my 10:39 post. You whould have refreshed before posting.

/insert mocking tongue out smiley here/

[SugarFree]

but I think you are agreeing with me.

Yes. Simulposting.

[robc]

Brooks has it right.

We should all quote and ignore the reply button, like in the good ole days.

[SugarFree]

*Not you personally being dishonest robc*

[robc]

Your analogy still sucks.

[Zeb]

I think the analogy with guns is OK. It is an analogy about how to deal with political opponents, not about the morality or rightness of the specific issue.

[Drake]

Pretty obviously the type of compromise would have in most states if the parties were not more interested in screaming the most extreme positions.

I have not talked to many people who think elective third-term abortions should be allowed.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I think many pro-choice people just feel about this the way most of us probably feel about RKBA. Giving an inch leads to a slippery slope.

[Fatty Bolger]

Yes, I think that's it, outside of the relatively small group that wants no limits at all on abortions.

[robc]

FALSE ANALOGY.

See above.

[Eduard van Haalen]

"Pretty obviously the type of compromise would have in most states if the parties were not more interested in screaming the most extreme positions.

"I have not talked to many people who think elective third-term abortions should be allowed."

There's another obstacle to compromise bills, which all abortion legislation has to run the gantlet of the federal courts to see if there's an "undue burden" on the Right to Choose.

Abortion laws supported by the supposed moderate middle have gone down in flames thanks to judicial endorsement of the extremist position.

[sarcasmic]

I fully support abortion up to and including the 53rd trimester.

[Rich]

Security at the store said when they tried to stop Oesterling, he told them he was a cop.

"That's what they *all* say. Or, they're "doing research".

[The Late P Brooks]

Speaking of the Dread Pirate Zimmerman, I was flipping through the channels last evening and briefly stopped at CNN. Holy fuck, Nancy Grace is an evil, bloated, shrieking harpy. I want to see the head of whoever is responsible for putting that inhuman nightmare on television on a pike.

[Pro Libertate]

Yeah, she's great, isn't she? Bet Atlanta was happy to see her go.

[John]

I have told you this before. I was friends with a guy in Atlanta who was a small time criminal defense attorney in the area. He practiced against her several times when she was a DA. He wouldn't give the details for some reason. But all he would say was "she was every bit as unethical and awful as you would think would be."

[Pro Libertate]

I don't know that she was every formerly disciplined, but I do recall reading some negative statements about her made by judges.

[RBS]

According to the GA Bar she has no public disciplinary actions on record. I had to look, I was hoping for something.

[Pro Libertate]

Yes, that's how I know. I like to think she left her practice like Michael Jordan left basketball for a while--to avoid a scandal.

[John]

My impression was that she was one of those people who was incredibly sleezy but smart enough to go right up to the line of where she could be disciplined and not cross it.

[Gray Ghost]

On the flip side, what does it take to get a prosecutor disbarred or otherwise sanctioned by the Bar? I mean short of Nifong-like malfeasance (and his greatest sin was who he tried to railroad), I don't read of many prosecutors getting rung up. I've read the Texas Bar Journal (GF is a lawyer) for the past several years, and I don't remember any court officers getting sanctioned, unless they got popped for crimes outside the court.

Cynically, prosecutors keep up with their CLE, pay their Bar dues, and don't have IOLTA accounts: what's there for the Bar Association to hang them with?

[John]

A whole lot. A DA about whom the best thing you can say is "they were never charged with misconduct" is on the level of a mobster who was "indicted but never convicted".

[tarran]

Well for one thing, apparently the story about her fiance getting gunned down by a criminal with a long record who was on the streets due to soft on crime policies is horseshit; he was gunned down by a co-worker with a beef.

She is a vile despicable person utterly lacking in honor; is guilty of misconduct that should have had her disbarred; and in a just world the media would be pillorying her rather than providing her with an income.

[Pro Libertate]

My wife watched her for a while but grew slowly disgusted. And she eats up "true crime" stuff.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Jon Stewart zings her mercilessly. The country needs him back. He is our Will Rogers/Mencken.

[Pro Libertate]

The fuck he is. I'm not insulting Stewart, but he's not of that caliber.

We could use a Mark Twain about now, though. Where is he?

[Palin's Buttplug]

If Stewart had to resort strictly to newsprint then he would not be well known like the great ones were. So I agree there.

Nevertheless, he is the premier socio-poitical commenter today.

[Pro Libertate]

Well, he certainly has a significant audience.

[RBS]

the premier socio-poitical commenter today.

Think about that for a minute. Then weep.

[Libertymike]

"he is the premier socio-political commenter today"

How dare you write such blasphemy knowing that both Epi and John would be reading it!

You owe them an apology!

[BakedPenguin]

I'm not insulting Stewart, but he's not of that caliber.

PJ O'Rourke is much closer, but even he's no Twain.

[Pro Libertate]

I'd agree. He's more in that mold, but he, too, is far from that caliber. I'm sure he'd agree with that statement.

[Gray Ghost]

And as nice as P.J. is, I think he really lost his fastball after he got married and had kids. His attempt in one of his books to revisit, "How to drive fast on drugs...", and make editorial comments, didn't come off very well, IMHO.

Good for him though that he seems to have a pretty good life.

[Old Man With Candy]

I was lucky enough to meet him after a taping of Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me! We chatted about Baltimore in the 1960s and the NPR mentality. Seemed like a sincerely nice fellow. LOVED Holidays in Hell.

What we need today isn't another Twain, but another Mencken.

[Sevo]

"I'm not insulting Stewart"

You should be, along with diptshit.

[Pro Libertate]

My point is that it's not so much Stewart's failings as it is the high bar set by people like Mencken and Twain.

[some guy]

Is she on the "GZ needs to go to jail even though there's tons of reasonable doubt" bandwagon?

[The Late P Brooks]

He is our Will Rogers/Mencken.

Fuck off.

[Fluffy]

What I've noticed lately is that Chris Hayes has apparently decided to be a kind of Stephen Colbert parody performance art character. It's really funny once you get into it and learn the code.

[Palin's Buttplug]

So is Hayes a fake conservative? Or a fake fake-conservative?

[Palin's Buttplug]

Did Mika piss you off again this morning, Brooks?

[Libertymike]

What an ugly, ugly woman.

[Libertymike]

But, shriek, if she moves your mojo, its cool.

[SugarFree]

PEAK RETARD. Stewart is a fucking joke, and not a funny one. His weepy nonsense after 9/11, his pretensions to seriousness, his lackadaisical humor.

Mencken never spent 6 years giving sloppy joy-joy blowjobs to an empty suit joke of a fucking president.

[Palin's Buttplug]

You lament the fact there is no Stewart for conservatives nor will there be. Also your party was destroyed by the miserable Bush presidency.

[SugarFree]

Don't reply to me, you piece of shit. You don't have my permission.

[Palin's Buttplug]

I don't take orders from reprobates.

[Marshall Gill]

PEAK RETARD. Stewart is a fucking joke, and not a funny one. His weepy nonsense after 9/11, his pretensions to seriousness, his lackadaisical humor.

Mencken never spent 6 years giving sloppy joy-joy blowjobs to an empty suit joke of a fucking president.

But Stewart has his tongue buried in Obama's ass just like Shriek! So that makes him funny and cool and just the best.

Obama's Toiletpaper pushing the limits of Peak Retard on a daily basis.

[The Late P Brooks]

Is she on the "GZ needs to go to jail even though there's tons of reasonable doubt" bandwagon?

That's too kind; I think she wants full-blown public drawing and quartering.

[The Late P Brooks]

Now they're talking about how Larry Summers is busily campaigning for Bernanke's job.

Fuck. Just bring on the asteroid.

[Palin's Buttplug]

Not so fast - Summers is a Hayek scholar.

[Rich]

Summers won't get the job, because he hates women.

[The Late P Brooks]

Trying to equate a nattering lightweight like Stewart to Mencken is like comparing my artwork to Turner's.

[John]

It is like comparing Beyonce to Gershwin. Love him or hate him Menchen was a serious person. Stewart is not.

[Libertymike]

Keeping the analogies in the family, its like comparing Jay Z to Scott Boras.

[John]

How long before there are a rash of lawsuits by broke star athletes whom Jay Z ripped off? Every time I hear about Jay Z's new career I think Don King.

What a con artist. He is basically playing on his celebrity and race to get a bunch of really dumb black athletes to trust him with their careers and money. That will end well.

It would be like Tom Brady deciding to hire Justin Beiber as his agent.

[The Late P Brooks]

A Turner.

[John]

I would love to know why we can no longer produce great paintings. Somewhere around 1930 or so, the human race seems to have lost the ability to produce great painting.

[Rich]

Plenty of great paintings these days. Just not Turneresque landscapes.

[John]

Maybe. But I am not seeing them in museums.

[Rich]

"Museums"? How quaint! 😉

[Eduard van Haalen]

All the great artists nowadays are making gold statues of their rich clients.

You didn't know this? I wonder why?

[RBS]

Haha, I went to the local art museum to see this exhibit everyone thought was so cool. The artist would basically paint something pretty decent then repeatedly touch it up until the canvas was a solid color. I know this because there were pictures documenting this transformation.

[lap83]

I doubt museums have ever been very representative of current great artists. Time is the only thing that can determine a true classic.

But there are still great painters out there if you look hard enough. A couple I like are Grzegorz Wrobel and Matthew Peck
http://www.emptykingdom.com/wp.....GreeGW.jpg

http://s3.otherpeoplespixels.c.....splash.jpg

[Pro Libertate]

It's interesting to integrate abstractions into real life renderings. It's less interesting to go completely abstract. It's totally uninteresting to put a toilet seat on display and call it, "Racism in America."

[SugarFree]

I would love to know why we can no longer produce great paintings.

Photography. Part of the skill of landscapes and portraiture was the ability to accurately capture a scene on canvas. Photos do that with a click of a button. Art had to become representational in order to keep from becoming a curio, a retrograde exercise in inefficiency--like the hipster doofus who spends a month making a bike out of trash that barely works and cost him far more in time, money and effort than simply going to a shop and buying one.

[Pro Libertate]

This has long been my view. That and computer-assisted art makes extreme realism very easy to replicate.

That said, my favorite works aren't hyper-reality, either, but they only employ some abstraction not the whole thing.

Here's my art for the day:

.

[SugarFree]

Pro Libertate's "Untitled" is the only suitable punctuation for the meandering, Joycean sentence that is life in 21st century America.

[Pro Libertate]

The sturm und drang of his hermeneutic deconstruction of America's ennui is fully realized through his tour de force of technique.

[Fatty Bolger]

Is it standard practice in the modern art world to write your own reviews?

[Pro Libertate]

Of course! Who else but me, the artist, Sorbonne-trained as I am, can speak to the truth of my work?

[Rasilio]

While I think you probably have a point the issue is not that Humans ability to paint is in any way compromised, it is that digital media have rendered the social value of painting nearly moot because everything gets everywhere so fast. In the past a great artist developed a reputation by word of mouth from the handful of people who had seen his work causing others to flock to see it based on that word of mouth.

Today, 5 minutes after the painting is unveiled everyone has seen it on Twitter, 2 weeks later it is available to view in a 3D art gallery on line and a month after that we've forgotten about it because someone else has painted and released something just as good.

Basically the talent is still there but the art never has time to percolate in the public consciousness and become "important" so it is quickly forgotten, even when from a technical standpoint it matches the great masters of the past.

[mad libertarian guy]

Itzchak Tarkay and Marcus Glenn.

[Rich]

"My *kid* can paint better than *that*!"

"Then you have a very talented kid."

[SugarFree]

You don't have to read the article, but scroll through the comments for this one:

Waepem
You could have at least ... . Never mind.

No. Don't listen, Brooklyn Bobo girls. Don't change. Stay unaware. We prefer you deny your instincts and believe/pretend/wish your intellect rules. It makes you so easy to manipulate for sex. Particularly when you approach 30 and start getting desperate. You know what I mean. Age twenty-eight, when that editorial assistant job you got right out of Columbia no longer seems like a "career" but drudgery/poverty. You find yourself looking for guys that show "Initiative" [heh], guys that have "Drive" and "Ambition" [double heh]. But you just can't admit to yourself that his intellect and politics matters less than his ability to provide for you and take care of your babies. Hell, you can't even admit that you WANT a man who can take care of you. Its so ... so ... anti-feminist ... so ... anti-progressive.

Brutal.

[John]

And so true. As I have gotten older and my peers are no longer in their 20s but in their late 30s, 40s and sometimes 50s, the contrast between chicks like that and well adjusted women who got married to guys who treated them well and had careers and didn't base their decisions in life on how to fight the patriarchy is more and more profound. The latter type of women generally keeps her looks, seems happy, is reasonably content and is looked upon as a serious person. The former get older, more haggard looking, more angry, less mature if that is possible, and are taken less and less seriously by those around them.

[Pro Libertate]

Sarah Palin must really upset them. She still looks pretty damned good.

[John]

There are books that could be written about the neurosis Palin causes in liberal feminists. She totally rejected everything they hold dear. She didn't go to a good school, has no credentials, he married a non beta male, she had multiple kids, she kept her looks and held political views women, in feminists' view, should not be allowed to hold.

It is so funny. One of the articles of feminist' faith is that men can't handle a strong woman. And when confronted with Palin, feminists completely fell apart and started chewing on the carpet and eating the furniture.

[JW]

feminists completely fell apart and started chewing on the carpet

Go on....

[Pro Libertate]

Is this like carpet-munching?

[Libertymike]

John, you just perfectly described my aunt Nancy. When I was 10, I wasn't buying her Betty Friedan bull shit or her Gloria Steinem garbage.

I used to think that she was the prettiest aunt. Now, not so much-just as you described.

[John]

It is almost like training yourself to hate and mistrust half of the population is bad for you.

It really must do weird things to your mind to be a straight dogmatic feminist. On the one hand you honestly believe all men are potential rapists and are always oppressors and never to be trusted. But on the other hand, you are sexually attracted to men and have a biological desire to sleep with them and be accepted by them.

That has to be terrible, worse than being a racist.

[Libertymike]

Even worse, she has a Master's and a JD and she is a know-it-all who is a gambling junkie and is always broke.

My grandmother removed her as co-executor when she executed a new will at age 93. My aunt was upset that my grandmother made another aunt the sole executor. I still recall visiting home when my aunt came over to cry on my shoulders about the whole thing. I told her that my grandmother made the right move as who the hell would put a gambling junkie in a fiduciary position?

My aunt, to this day, insists her mother was a "pawn of the patriarchy". My grandmother may have been traditional, but she was nobody's pawn.

[Fluffy]

Nate is even more painfully conscious that judging women's worth by their conventional beauty is both intellectually and morally indefensible. His life philosophy is squarely egalitarian, and he wants to be the kind of man who is attracted to a woman's intellect and character...

The juxtaposition of these two sentences really annoys me.

"Judging women's worth" does not equal "being attracted to".

The Jezebelians want these things to be the same, and they are not the same.

Why can't I value smart women as colleagues and as valuable members of society...without wanting to fuck them?

I don't want to fuck any man, anywhere. Does that mean I'm "judging their worth" to be low? Of course not. They have plenty of worth that I acknowledge every day. I just don't fuck them.

It's really pathetic, when you get right down it. The Jezebelians SAY they want women to be fully participatory members of society despite their gender - but the bottom line is that they don't actually care about any other form of acceptance than wanting to be fucked. The fat girl resentment is still there even if they get the jobs they say they want and the respect they say they want, because they don't actually want those things. They want to be pretty. And if you don't think they're pretty, they hate you, no matter what you do for them in the workplace or the creative space or wherever.

[John]

Just like the racism issue is for prog whites really about giving them a reason to feel superior to other white people, feminism is more and more about women giving themselves a reason to feel superior to other women. As much as the Jezzies claim to hate men, their real target is other women. The whole ideology for many of them is about homely girls trying to take away the natural advantages that pretty girls have.

[SugarFree]

I'm going to read the novel. It sounds delightfully mean.

[Nikkis enthusiastic dissent]

Yes, this just made my decision on the novel as well.

[Fatty Bolger]

House Republicans crafting DREAM Act-like immigration bill

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) and Judiciary Committee Chairman Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.) are drafting legislation to provide a path to citizenship for immigrant children who were brought to the U.S. illegally by their parents, their offices said Thursday.

According to the article, Republicans say they will attempt reform one piece at a time, which should be a winning strategy for them if they follow through with it (and is more likely to produce positive real-world changes, IMO). Democrats will continue to push for comprehensive reform.

[The Late P Brooks]

feminists completely fell apart and started chewing on the carpet

NTTAWWT

[John]

Not at all.

[SugarFree]

Aw, man. Don't wish those harridans on poor lesbians.

The ultimate punishment for the excesses on nonsense feminism is that they should have to live with themselves for the rest of their miserable lives.

[Fatty Bolger]

I just saw a trailer for Orange is the New Black, the new Netflix series about a woman who spends a year in prison.

In the trailer she says "The scariest part of prison is coming face to face with who you are." That just cracks me up. Yeah, I'm sure that's the scariest thing about prison. I wonder if the whole series is that stupid?

[John]

I would imagine so. I have seen interviews with the woman in question and read excerpts of her book. She is this high end white girl who decided at Wellsley that she was going to fight the patriarchy by being a lesbian. She fell in with some butch Nigerian lesbian who was the American connection of an international heroin smuggling operation run out of Nigeria. She ended up moving some cash and a couple of other things for her girlfriend. Then the girlfriend got a bit abusive so she ran home to mumsy and pupsy and married a nice man, only to have CBP show up with an indictment a couple of years later.

She ended up pleading out and doing a year in federal prison. She is a victim of the drug war. What she did should have never sent her to prison. But from what I have seen her message is prison is really awful and shouldn't be so bad. I have yet to hear her say anything about the injustice of the drug war. She actually went to prison and seems to think she deserved to go, but just to a nicer prison.

In short, like many upper class people from high end schools, she doesn't seem very bright.

[Fatty Bolger]

Interesting. I didn't know it was based on a true story.

[mad libertarian guy]

In the trailer she says "The scariest part of prison is coming face to face with who you are." That just cracks me up. Yeah, I'm sure that's the scariest thing about prison. I wonder if the whole series is that stupid?

Ignore the 150 forced sterilizations in CA women's prisons.

[OldMexican]

By the way, in case you aren't following it, O'Mara is nailing the Prosecution's ass to the wall.

The kind of case that the Prosecution should've presented yesterday rather than the sarcasm and the platitudes against people with guns (or "wanna-be cops") is being presented by O'Mara in such a professional way that the jury would have to be brain-dead to even consider manslaughter, let alone murder in the 2nd degree.

An excellent question posited by O'Mara that the Prosecution did not dare ask: If Trayvon was running, as his friend Rachel stated, and since there were 4 minutes - count then: FOUR - between the point where Zimmerman says "Oh, shit! He's running" and the fatal shot, why didn't Trayvon run home? It was only 300 yards away, and you can run a mile in 4 minutes...

[Brett L]

Well, some people can run a mile in four minutes. My teammate won the Texas 5A state mile in 1996 (97?) with a 4:17. But even slow people can do 3/4 of a lap in 4 minutes.

[free2booze]

Most people can walk 300 yards in under 4 minutes. Martin has every opportunity to go home, and chose not, which negates the argument that being followed by Zimmerman was justification for throwing a punch.

You're absolutely correct about the closing arguments from O'Mara. One thought I had during the four minutes when the court was in silence was that Zimmerman had no way of knowing that the guy who came up to him at the end of that time period was the guy he was following.