Waco

Today Marks The 20th Anniversary of the Waco Fiasco

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Branch Davidian settlement
FBI

Today marks the twentieth anniversary of the bloody mess in Waco, Texas, when federal agents staged a raid on the Branch Davidian settlement over non-violent weapons violations, and managed to botch the operation in spectacular and lethal form. The anniversary is especially worth noting since some of the usual suspects speculated early on that the Boston Marathon bombing was somehow connected to that incident, and because some of the agencies called upon in the wake of terrorist attacks also bear responsibility for the deaths in Waco. Over at the Cato Institute's National Police Misconduct Reporting Project, Timo Lynch tells us why Waco matters.

April 19, 1993 marks the worst police action in modern American history.   Here are the main things to know:

  • 76 people, including 27 children, died that day.  That loss of life is a sufficient explanation as to why this incident is important and worth remembering.
  • The federal police operation did not involve a handful of "rogue" agents.  The incident is disturbing because it supposedly involved the best units of the ATF and the FBI.  And much of the decision-making was done by the top people at headquarters facilities in Washington, DC.
  • Make no mistake, crimes were committed by federal agents at Waco.  And those crimes were covered-up.
  • If the feds can successfully cover-up the worst police action in modern American history–an event that was highly publicized and that eventually brought extensive congressional hearings and the appointment of a special prosecutor– it is frightening to consider what police agencies would be able to get away in instances where there is no media scrutiny or legislative oversight.

Lynch points to a 2001 paper he wrote for Cato about the Waco fiasco, which points out:

Although the "official" investigation of the incident now places all of the blame for the carnage on the Branch Davidian leader, David Koresh, numerous crimes by government agents were never seriously investigated or prosecuted. If those crimes go unpunished, the Waco incident will leave an odious precedent—that federal agents can use the "color of their office" to commit crimes against citizens.

Lest anybody dismiss Lynch's tough assessment of the behavior of federal agents at Waco as libertarian kookiness, let's remember that, after a jury acquitted Branch Davidian defendants at trial of the most serious charges, the New York Times editorialized a rather harsh judgment of government conduct:

The jury's mixed verdict in the deaths of four of the Treasury agents who raided the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Tex., has dealt another mortifying blow to Federal law enforcement. Just about the only person who does not view the verdict as a rebuke to the massive and unnecessary police action is Attorney General Janet Reno.

The raid, a year ago yesterday, was botched, as were most of the Government's efforts to arrange the surrender of the heavily armed cultist David Koresh. Along with dozens of his followers and their children, Mr. Koresh perished last April in a fiery response to a final raid, by the F.B.I.

At a time when Americans are debating the wisdom of even further increasing government control and scrutiny over our lives, let's remember that some of the agencies that exercise such control and scrutiny are the same ones that bear responsibility for Waco.

NEXT: Air Traffic Control Furloughs Kick in This Weekend

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  1. numerous crimes by government agents were never seriously investigated or prosecuted. If those crimes go unpunished, the Waco incident will leave an odious precedent?that federal agents can use the “color of their office” to commit crimes against citizens

    Precedent established. If you want to become incredibly angry, go watch Waco: The Rules of Engagement. Bonus part where Chuck Schumer is spectacularly dismissive and arrogant about atrocities committed by federal agents. If you didn’t already despise Chuckles, you will.

    1. If you’re ever having too good a day and just want to be real pissed off, follow Epi’s advice.

      1. Brody. I can see what your saying… Earl`s blog is amazing, last friday I got themselves a Jaguar E-type since getting a cheque for $4865 this-past/five weeks and-in excess of, ten grand this past month. this is certainly my favourite job Ive ever had. I actually started five months/ago and straight away startad bringin home at least $87 per-hr. I work through this link tinyurl.com/d8v6duz
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        1. Khimki forest dot com. You will care.

    2. Thirded. But are you complaining that there are any actual human people who don’t despise Chucky?

      1. *claiming*, not complaining.

        1. I will complain if I find out someone doesn’t despise Chuck Schumer.

          1. No need to complain! Even people who routinely return Moobs to office loath him.

        2. Yes. They are called New Yorkers. An accursed and degenerate race, full of envy and stupidity and greed.

      2. Somehow Chuckles gets re-elected. Riddle me that, Bat-rapist-moron.

        “Chuck. You know what that rhymes with, right?”

        1. One of my proggie high school classmates was all a-flutter about using the same voting booth as Chuckie during the last election.

          Yes, it was as embarrassingly pathetic as it sounds.

        2. Look, I realize that some tulipcal people are proud to suck authority cock. That’s why I specified human people, you cowardly cad.

          1. And you, sir, are a complaining proclaimer.

            Fourthed or whatever. Except it made me want to kickpunch Schumer in his vile, odious face, and also weep. Horrible.

            1. Look, everyone who knows anything knows that flashbangs can’t start fires. You don’t know that, so you don’t know anything.

              1. Well, she’s also a chick so she doesn’t know shit about anything.

                1. Sorry. I will get back to ruining everything by showing and/or not showing my tits, and being stupid and terrible. I am pretty sure that’s how that works, right?

                  1. Sounds good to me. And try and talk less, OK?

                    You’re talking to me about stuff
                    Why? I’d rather see your titties
                    Now you’re talking about other stuff
                    Why? I’d much rather see your titties

                    I can’t have sex with your personality
                    And I can’t put my penis in your college degree
                    And I can’t shove my fist in your childhood dreams
                    So why you’re sharing all this information with me?

                  2. Don’t listen to him Dagny. He has mommy issues. I’m more than happy to entertain your thoughts. And I want to see your tits too.

            2. Remember the part where he says that the Branch Davidians who died of gunshots must have shot each other? RAGESMASH

          2. Shouldn’t that be Tulpaian?

            1. Tulpical. I misspelled it. There’s also the biblical tribe of the Tulpaites, but they were justly wiped out by Gideon for they were accursed unto God.

        3. His success in life speaks to the moral superiority of anarchy.

    3. The film is in the queue. Thanks.

      In that light, does anyone have any recommendations for a book or documentary about Ruby Ridge?

      1. I found this streaming/download link which I assume is legal.

      2. I just finished Ruby Ridge: The Truth and Tragedy of the Randy Weaver Family by Jess Walter. It’s good, fair, and maddening.

    4. Fourthed. Until I watched it, my hatred of Chuck Schumer was merely intellectual. Now it’s a full-on body hate.

      1. It’s the hatred that dare not say its name. You heard me.

    5. Watching now. Cycling between incandescent with rage, intensely depressed, and just absolutely fucking bewildered.

  2. April 19, 1993 marks the day that I quit flying the American flag.

    Seriously.

    1. I remember eating lunch when my uncle came up to me and growled, ‘ the motherfuckers burned them alive.’

  3. I was going through officer candidate school when the U.S. government decided to light up the place as a public relations ploy…

    Our drill instructors encouraged us to make up jodys mocking the Branch Davidians to chant during our runs.

    Not one of my prouder memories.

    1. The entire Army Instructor establishment is an odd lot, and the Drill variety seems to be exceptionally odd.

      Not too long after you were in OCS I was at HRC (TAP-C then) and it sounded like my AC counterparts had been given a long bit of instruction on Posse Comitatus.

  4. Went to school with the daughter of one of the ATF agents out of the Houston office who got fired (and later rehired with full back-pay and benefits). I didn’t know until probably the 10th anniversary when I was reading a story and recognized the name, which was very distinct, and the timing of her family’s move from Houston to Virginia. Its weird to have met a dude who was reported to have instigated a cover-up to dodge blame for planning that clusterfuck.

    1. It’s like meeting an SS veteran huh? Seeing the banality of evil and all that.

      1. The ATF was not the SS. Lets not get out of control. Koreish was a scum bag cult leader. The ATF were a bunch of craven morons. But they were not the SS.

        1. Speaking of the krauts, have you read this, John?

        2. The SS had much better uniforms, and actually were fantastic soldiers, in addition to being genocidal maniacs.

          The difference between Einsatzgruppen and a Waco Siege ATF man is only in how much blood is on their hands.

          1. That is Tulpa level stupid Virginian. And it makes up for it by pissing on the graves of the actual victims of the SS. Last I looked Koresh was a guy with a federal warrant out for his arrest who holed up in an armed standoff after killing two federal agents, refused to leave or at least let the women and children leave during a standoff that went on for weeks and meanwhile went out of his way to put out crazy pronouncement after another all of which pointed to him planning a mass suicide. Stop comparing him to Jews killed in the Holcaust. It is disgusting and undermines legitimate criticisms of the ATF.

            1. Your Koresh narrative is very much the federal government’s narrative, John. Again, I suggest you watch the documentary I named in the first comment.

            2. So your argument is that to keep them all from killing themselves, the federal government had to murder them all?

              What the fuck?

            3. Yeah, it’s not like the fed assholes couldn’t have picked him up in town on one of his many trips. NOOOOOO, they HAD to have their PR stunt that got some jack-booted ubermensch smoked. Those fuckers were every bit the S.S., terrifying a “degenerate religious minority”. That whole clusterfuck was the feds fault from beginning to end. What evidence of wrong doing did they ever present…oh, that’s right, none because they killed the kids they were there to “protect”. And then burned down the house with all of the “illegal” weapons that the Davidians supposedly had. Fuck those assholes, and yourself you apologist shit-weasle. The dead ATF got what was coming to them.

              1. Yeah, it’s not like the fed assholes couldn’t have picked him up in town on one of his many trips.

                Exactly. He may well have been as bad as they claimed, but the entire raid was nothing but a PR stunt to get more funding. Fuck them and fuck everyone who took part and fuck everyone who believed their shit.

                1. Janet Reno. A name that should live in infamy. American mass murderer.

            4. Last I looked Koresh was a guy with a federal warrant out for his arrest who holed up in an armed standoff after killing two federal agents, refused to leave or at least let the women and children leave during a standoff that went on for weeks and meanwhile went out of his way to put out crazy pronouncement after another all of which pointed to him planning a mass suicide.

              Wow, good thing they prevented that!

              Seriously though, there is no excuse for burning alive 27 innocent children, at the very least.

          2. The SS was not just soldiers. I believe the soldier SS were the Waffen SS. Hugo Boss was in some other SS, just so he could stay in business and become the main supplier of Nazi uniforms. Being the exclusive Brown Shirt maker was apparently not enough to get the sole-source contract.

            He also joined the German Worker’s League, the Nazi nationalized union (check out their spiffy flag online).

        3. They were on April 19, 1993.

        4. No, but Janet Reno is a liar and a murderer. Which is still bad.

      2. Eh. They look so normal when they’re cheering their kid on at a track meet.

      3. “I vas only paying zee mortgage.”

  5. 76 people, including 27 children, died that day. That loss of life is a sufficient explanation as to why this incident is important and worth remembering.

    They had to kill the children to save them.

    1. In the documentary I name above, they show you what the cyanide produced by the gas they pumped into the compound produces when it burns does to people, and the children. I said incredibly angry, I should have said incandescent rage.

      1. I’ve seen the documentary.

        I agree.

      2. Don’t forget the machine gunning from helicopters, the tanks collapsing walls, the continued gunfire, including sniper fire, aimed at the exits. The call for fire services went out about ten minutes after the fire started, and the feds didn’t let the trucks through for like an hour or two.

        They went in aiming to kill everyone, and they did. Not one of them was ever tried, not one of them ever suffered even the slightest consequences. It is the most monstrous thing the US government has done to its own citizens since FDR interned the Nisei.

        1. You’re making me fucking angry again. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.

          (starts turning green)

          1. Epi! Look over there! Very thin crust pizza!

            1. URGE TO KILL DIMINISHING

              1. With pineapple and cauliflower on it!

                1. URGE TO KILL RISING AGAIN

            2. Turns out it was a Chicago pizza in disguise…

  6. April 19th marks the battles of Lexington and Concord, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, and the massacre at Waco.

    Strange, that the same day has three horrible examples of government tyranny.

    1. And the OKC bombing.

      1. The difference being that a lone murderer is far less a problem then thousands of people blithely and with no moral qualms committing wholesale murder.

        The feds at Waco offered the Nuremburg defense, and it was accepted. The last vestiges of the old Republic went up in smoke with that compound.

        1. It is not that simple. It is not like Koreish didn’t shoot people too. And it is not like Koreish didn’t engage in a standoff for weeks on end. What did Koreish think was going to happen? Did he think the FBI was going to go away?

          And what was the FBI and the feds supposed to do? Say, well we know you killed a couple of federal agents in a shootout but since you don’t want to come out, just go about your business?

          I do not believe the feds intended to kill those people. What happened was they got tired of waiting around and were afraid Koresh and his followers were going to kill themselves and they went in. Where thing went wrong was they were completely fucking incompetent and never considered the possibility that ramming through the wall would set the place on fire and kill everyone.

          That doesn’t excuse them from a lot of culpability. But I wouldn’t call what happened murder either.

          1. John, have you watched the documentary I named in the first comment? Because if you haven’t, you should. It might change your mind about a few things. It’s propaganda (isn’t everything?), but it is damn well sourced propaganda.

            For instance, the aerial infrared footage that shows federal agents firing on all exit points after the fire breaks out so that people cannot escape will make you literally angry with rage.

            1. No I haven’t. And if that is true, then those guys are guilty of murder. Why the fuck would they do something like that?

              1. Just go watch it, and make sure you have something nearby that it’s ok for you to break. Because you will want to break something.

              2. Because the ATF is the American SS. I am fucking telling you John, you do not know what those motherfuckers are.

                They have stomped cats to death, they have slammed pregnant women against the wall, forcing a miscarriage. Look up what happened to Ken Ballew.

                They are fucking scum, the worst fucking government employees there are.

              3. Because they are murderous Jack-Booted thugs with gubmint issued clown suits. You were spouting off all this shit and you know nothing about what happened? Oh right, you’re and attorney that works for the gov, it’s your job to be a disingenuous shit-weasle.

              4. Watch the documentary.

                Personally, I didn’t want to break something, I just wanted to vomit.

              5. Why the fuck would they do something like that?

                Why does Tulpa lick police balls?

                1. Jesus, what utter rubbish. Just because he doesn’t automatically/reflexively instantly assume the cops are always wrong everytime and parse everything such that it’s always viewed from any perspective but the cop’s, we get comments like this.

                  Amazing.

              6. Because fuck you, that’s why.

              7. Why the fuck would they do something like that?

                Because they are the murderers you claim they arent.

              8. Because when the BDs are all dead, there’s only one story – that of the FBI.

            2. I watched that documentary. Honestly, it’s the only conspiracy documentary I’ve ever watched that I found convincing. When you see the the footage of the guys firing on the compound from the helicopter and the tanks, and then hear the officials claim those flashes weren’t gunfire, but sunlight reflecting off of a piece of metal, it becomes impossible to believe there wasn’t a coverup of some kind.

              Most conspiracies I believe at about 0-10%. With this, I’d say I’m 80% convinced they burned those people alive.

              1. Most conspiracies I believe at about 0-10%. With this, I’d say I’m 80% convinced they burned those people alive.

                They definitely burned them alive. It has been standard federal agent procedure for a siege for decades.

                I think my personal favorite piece of evidence from Waco is the seven foot tall double doors, made of sheet metal, that served as the entrance. Obviously you can easily tell which way the bullets were going when they passed through the metal doors. Except the doors were lost. The feds “lost” two seven foot slabs of bullet riddled sheet metal. My guess? Because there are hundreds of holes going into the building, and very few coming out.

          2. John, you know nothing about what happened, this is clear from what you typed there.

          3. The Davidians only shot “people” as defined by heavily armed ninjas attempting to storm their home. What the fuck were they supposed to do you cock-sucking statist asshole? And please explain what super fucking genius thought it was a good idea to do a heavily armed raid against people that think the gov is out to get them? Self-fucking-fulfilling prophecy much asshole. It’s sad, I frequently agree with you on issued but now I see you are just another cop-sucking apologist. Please die in the same fire with Dunphy and bring your progeny.

          4. John, survivors admitted that Branch Davidians started the fire, and accelerants were found on the clothing of Branch Davidians and as well as punctured fuel cans inside the compound.

            1. And many other survivors insist that they didn’t.

              Thing is, the Davidians had only started saying a few days before that they would burn the place down if the ATF moved in. Why would the ATF then pick that time, seemingly the worst time during the standoff, to tear-gas the place? The Davidians had finally given them the “out” they were looking for, and they took it.

          5. No John, it was murder. There is nothing defensible about what happened at Waco.

      2. And tomorrow is Hitler’s birthday.

        1. You know who else had a birthday on Hitler’s birthday?

          1. George Takei and John Paul Stevens?

          2. George Takei?

          3. Mary Jane Weedson?

        2. Also tomorrow Nate Diaz needs to piss negative after fighting Josh Thompson.

      3. If Waco doesn’t happen, OKC probably doesn’t happen, either.

  7. Here is the bottom line. It is very difficult to get people to have any sympathy for a group that engages in a prolonged stand off with cops. Most people looked at Waco and blamed Koriesh for causing the standoff and thus for all of the resulting deaths. That is just reality. As much as I would love to blame the lack of outrage on the scumbag media or the Democrats and such, I really can’t.

    1. Tribalism, as always, is the problem. “Them there fuckin’ cult is fightin’ agin America! KILL ‘EM!”

      1. No. It was “why the fuck are these nuts shooting at people and talking about the apocalypse?” You have to remember, Koreish did everything he could to give the impression that this was going to be another Jonestown. He wasn’t exactly pleading his case as an innocent guy who was the victim of an ATF Raid gone wrong. He was talking about reading messages from God over so many days for the final one to be revealed on whatever date. All of that always gets forgotten.

        1. I was 10 at the time, and I remember feeling happy that those dangerous nuts finally got what was coming to them. I must have picked that up from my teacher, or the news, or the other kids, but I suspect it was the general mood.

          Also, your quote and mine are in no way incompatible.

          1. It is pretty disgusting what kids can absorb when they’re not presented with competing narratives. Until I saw the documentary Epi mentioned, the only association I had with Waco was similar to yours.

            1. Well how on earth would you have thought anything else? I mean, especially when the only remotely competing narratives are from right-wing or libertarian nutjobs…sigh.

            2. I was a bit older, and I was not okay with it. I remember in our high school newspaper, someone drew an editorial cartoon that had a picture of Koresh holding a shotgun with the caption: “Spokesman for the NRA”. My libertarian friend lost his shit over that.

        2. There was just as much evidence that the ATF agents shot on the first day were shot by their buddies.

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  9. 76 people, including 27 children, died that day.

    Killed by trained professionals on the government payroll.

    Good shootin’, heroes!

    1. It was mostly fire, actually.

  10. Yep, the New York Times and their liberal media brethren still had a modicum of sanity twenty years ago. Needless to say, those days are long gone.

    1. After 12 years of Republicans in the Oval Office, they were still reflexively criticizing the Executive Branch when it was wrong.

  11. Improper storage of firearms can never go unpunished.

    1. + 1600 Joules.

    2. They were just trying to do an annual checkup.

  12. Not only did Janet Reno not face any consequences over this, she remained AG through both of Bubba’s terms. And even now gets to be a guest statr on the Simpsons.

    She, along with her sister, donated the money they were paid to the Innocence Project.

    Pretty big of her, considering how many people she railroaded as Dade County State Attorney and US Attorney-General.

    1. Guilt-ridden atonement, undoubtedly.

  13. Once I understood what the Waco siege represented, I became immune to government officials whining about tragedies and “senseless deaths/murders.” The governments, especially the federal government, doesn’t give the hair off of a rat’s ass about killing anyone without just cause, so long as the killing was planned. Waco was planned. Drone strikes were planned. Ruby Ridge was planned. Even soldiers getting cut up by IEDs and Blue-on-Green ambushes is planned. But when the killing isn’t planned, most recently the Boston Marathon bombing (I’m surprised none of the talking heads have been crass enough to call it the Boston Massacre Part 2), or the Newton murders, suddenly politicans are up in arms, press conferences are held, tears are shed, ribbons are produced and worn, and women and children are trotted out to serve as props and shields for the government to seize more power.

    /rant

  14. Epi is correct. The mentioned documentary is compelling and REASONABLY fair (I don’t believe it’s possible to make an unbiased documentary).

    The feds fucked up bigtime and the ultimate blame is on Reno’s shoulders.

    1. Dunphinator, don’t leave out David Aguilera, a man whose name should rightly be spat on by all right-thinking people.

      The man ignored evidence (the supposed automatic weapons claim had already been investigated and dismissed by the Waco sheriff), fabricated other evidence (claimed Koresh was running a meth lab in order to get the military involved), and engaged in wild-assed speculation to get a magistrate judge to sign a warrant (I can’t prove they are doing anything illegal but in my expert opinion as an ATF investigator they COULD do something llegal).

      1. Oh yea. There’s plenty to blame besides Reno. She’s just the highest up muckety muck (besides clinton I guess) and she pushed the call to raid them.

        But yea, there ‘s plenty of spittable people in this story

    2. I guess only a cop can refer to mass murder as a fuck up.

  15. Ebert on Waco:The Rules of Engagement

    Whatever happened at Waco, these facts remain: It is not against the law to hold irregular religious beliefs. It is not illegal to hold and trade firearms. It is legal to defend your own home against armed assault, if that assault is illegal. It is impossible to see this film without reflecting that the federal government, from the top down, treated the Branch Davidians as if those rights did not apply.

    Fucking fuck. OK, now I’m going to go squat a ton of weight and put this giant throbbing hateboner to good use.

    1. Honestly, I squatted a ton of weight, literally, this morning. Unless that’s your single rep weight, you aren’t squatting enough.

      1. And yes, the implication is that I am weak and need to SQUAT MOAR!!

      2. The schedule is to do 415 for 3×5, and I’ll probably push the last set to 8 or 10. So 3-4 tons on my top sets, yes.

        1. I hate you so much. I’ll have to tap into that when I squat tomorrow.

        2. Nice. Do you do wide stance PLer style squat or narrower stance. Hibar or lobar?

          I used to squat PLer style until I became a competitive OLer . Now I squat to improve my OLifting, so it’s an inefficient style to do max weight on, but it’s the best style to improve my clean and jerk and snatch which is the entire point for me.

          1. These were low bar medium stance Rippetoe-style squats. I also do Olympic-style ATG squats on my pressing days, in order to get more leg work in and because they don’t beat me up as bad. I don’t think the difference is as much as is commonly portrayed, because my best low-bar squat is 550 and my best high-bar squat is 525.

        3. I bet you don’t even lift, bro.

    2. IF the bar aint bendin’, you’re just pretendin’ and remember , … friends don’t let friends squat high.

      Sad to say with my loss of 40 lbs of muscle mass, I fear the amount of lbs I have lost in my squat.

    3. You’re such a douche. I wish I could squat during work hours.

      1. I squat, as Randy Strossen refers to it… NO/NO/NO

        NO BELT

        NO WRAPS

        NO SPOTTERS

        just a man, a squat rack, a platform, and the truth

  16. Make no mistake, crimes were committed by federal agents at Waco. And those crimes were covered-up.

    Can we get a copyeditor on this militia nut BS?

    Defenders of the heavily armed law enforcement resisting personality cult got their payback and then some when they killed 168 innocent people in OKC.

    Even if the ATF and FBI totally botched Waco (and the special counsel investigation concluded with strong evidence that Branch Davidians started the fire that killed most of them), that’s not an argument for an overarching political worldview.

    1. The people in OKC were not innocent. They were in a Federal Building. If you are at war with a government, it’s official building are legitimate military targets. We bomb the shit out of gov building all the time. Just ask the poor bastards in the Iraqi intelligence building.

    2. You. are. evil.

      1. What has that got to with anything?

      2. It’s a sockpuppet, Kristen. It’s just a character. Ignore it.

        1. I know, but usually it’s just harmlessly dopey. That statement above was pure, unmitigated malice.

          1. Yea, they are called rules of engagement. Our military uses them all the time. It sucks when it is your ox being gored huh?

            1. I wasn’t addressing you.

              1. Sorry, I am used to that reaction when I point out that OKC was A-OK by military rules if you are at war with the U.S. Gov.

            2. So when does your nation or whatever it is you are declaring war in the name of admit defeat at the hands of a vastly superior force?

              1. You mean, like the North Vietnamese v. the US? Or the Afghan Mujahadeen v. the Soviets? Or the Continental Army v. the redcoats, for that matter? They were all clearly outclassed by the vastly superior force of their opponents.

                /trollfeed

                1. Well good luck with that.

        2. I finally put him on the ignore list.

          1. Just did the same.

            1. I mean, he’s either a troll or he’s literally evil. Either way, life’s too short.

      3. Exactly which part of my post was evil?

        Were the Branch Davidians not heavily armed, law enforcement resisting, or a personality cult? Did McVeigh not kill 168 innocent people in retribution to the perceived wrongdoing by the federal government at Waco? Did the investigation not explicitly conclude that the Davidians started the fire that killed most of them?

        Or are being true and being evil not necessarily at odds?

        1. Were the Branch Davidians not heavily armed

          Heavily armed compared to what? The FBI with the armored CEVs?

          law enforcement resisting

          Based on a warrant obtained under false pretenses.

          or a personality cult

          Says the Obama-drone without the slightest bit of irony.

          PROTECT THE QUEEN!

          Did McVeigh not kill 168 innocent people in retribution to the perceived wrongdoing by the federal government at Waco?

          Unless you have a means of time travel, the Oklahoma City bombing is immaterial to the Waco Siege. Stick to the topic, Tony w/o spaces.

          Did the investigation not explicitly conclude that the Davidians started the fire that killed most of them?

          The investigation in which evidence was ignored, glossed over, and the investigation itself obstructed by members of the FBI and ATF?

          Why yes, it does say that.

        2. McVeigh had no actual connection to the Branch Davidians. Claiming that dead people got ‘revenge’ from an unrelated person killing other innocent people is absurdly evil, even for you.

          You really are just a fascist. You’re not even a liberal. To your mind, the government could murder all of its opponents and it would be okay, so long as those opponents are anti-government.

          You’re disgusting.

          1. You aren’t reading between the lines. I’m calling you people conspiracy nuts who are sympathizing with a suicide cult because they happened to have engaged in a standoff with federal agents. They killed themselves (for the most part). But I’m absolutely not disagreeing with the premise that the entire thing was a fiasco. But it’s not good Branch Davidians vs. evil feds either, and that kind of thinking is what motivates psychopaths like McVeigh. The FBI is not a perfect organization but they’re a hell of a lot more accountable than the militia movement.

            1. How is the comparison a legitimate equivalence? The militia movement isn’t about investigating weirdo cults for gun-possession infractions. It’s about internalizing community defense. On the other hand, enforcing interdictions is the bread-and-butter rationale for the FBI and ATF. And they can stonewall behind the veil of legitimacy afforded them by slanted Congressional hearings.

              1. Also, I’m not going to call you a sockpuppet or troll, since you actually attempt to clarify your points. Unlike Derider or PBP, who leave stinking piles of unreason and then hide behind the couch and who I’m convinced are fellow reasoners being trolling dicks.

          2. I will however try to find the documentary Epi recommended and will do further research, because I don’t know for sure the special counsel report wasn’t a whitewash as is sometimes claimed. Being an Oklahoman might make me a little bit irrationally furious when people start going off about Waco.

            1. The whole thing is here. I just watched. Loose Change is lunacy. This is convincing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebolPiRyhTo

              1. I watched it, and what I took away that I hadn’t thought of was the sort of culture of the fed agents. I suppose it’s plausible that the Davidians were scared of surrendering to guys who were behaving like steroidal frat boys with an arsenal. But it is nonsense to think the federal government had designs to kill them all, especially if you think all they cared about was PR.

                I don’t think the doc resolves anything, and definitely had a pro-Davidian slant. But I can see how it might make mediocre conspiracy-theory-oriented minds like Epi’s go into a fury.

        3. “Did McVeigh not kill 168 innocent people in retribution to the perceived wrongdoing by the federal government at Waco? ”

          Doesn’t that make it worse? The government couldn’t restore those people to life, but if it had conducted an honest investigation rather than a cover up, and actually held its agents accountable and put them in jail, then maybe McVeigh would have trusted the political process enough not to carry out his bombing, and a lot more people (including a lot more children) would still be alive.

    3. Its just Tony.

      FEDGOV could have his whole family hung up on hooks and he would still gaze upon imperial DC like the, like the …..well like Tony gazing rapturously at a hard 14 year olds cock.

  17. Thank goodness Tony’s here. That government cock won’t suck itself.

  18. One of the major things I remember about Waco is the huge public display of tanks and paramilitary tactics lije I don’t believe we had seen televised in a domestic law enforcement scenerio. At least nit televised like that. That and the fact they could have arrested him in town any time they liked and choose the seige route instead.

  19. never forget that the whole thing was an ATF publicity stunt for congressional funding. the same annual made for TV publicity stunt raid they did every January til Waco for the national evening news.

  20. correction: February.

  21. At the time, I was working so much the story was just a vague humming in the background.

    But even considering that, a paramilitary assault on that compound was completely outside the bounds of anything I would reasonably have expected. That was probably the most egregious barefaced assault by government forces on domestic citizens since Hoover sent MacArthur out to drive the Bonus Army out of Washington.

    1. I was overseas (waaaaaay overseas), so it barely made a blip on the radar, even in the English-language press. Of course, Turgut Ozal had died only the day before, so it kind of makes sense that Waco wouldn’t make a ripple.

  22. Man I didn’t realize until now that I was living in Houston when this went down. However I was just a kid then so I don’t remember anything.

    Also that NYT editorial is quite an eye-opener. Ah the days before the WOT and the Recession when there were lefties who did seem to actually care about the rights of the Opposition.

  23. Re: Episiarch,

    If you want to become incredibly angry, go watch Waco: The Rules of Engagement.

    Epi is totally right: You should watch it. Changes your perspective completely.

  24. Feels like a deep pain in the heart for the people over there!! 🙁 🙁

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