Boy Scouts Delay Gay Vote. Should LGBT Community Be Angry or Patient?
Asking for more voices is not necessarily a bad thing
The executive board of the Boy Scouts of America today decided to punt the issue of allowing gay members until May and allow some 1,400 voting members of their national council to help make the decision at their annual meeting:
After careful consideration and extensive dialogue within the Scouting family, along with comments from those outside the organization, the volunteer officers of the Boy Scouts of America's National Executive Board concluded that due to the complexity of this issue, the organization needs time for a more deliberate review of its membership policy. To that end, the National Executive Board directed its committees to further engage representatives of Scouting's membership and listen to their perspectives and concerns. This will assist the officers' work on a resolution on membership standards.
Demonstrating how far out of step I am with this gay community I'm allegedly part of, I thought this announcement was good news. Scout families delivered more than a 1 million signatures on Monday in support of allowing gay scouts. It seemed that there was a significant support by its own membership and that opening up the vote would increase the likelihood of change.
But what do I know? Folks are pissed. Here's a response from the Gay and Lesbian Association Against Defamation (GLAAD):
"An organization that serves youth and chooses to intentionally hurt dedicated young people and hardworking parents not only flies in the face of American principles, but the principles of being a Boy Scout," said GLAAD President Herndon Graddick. "The Boy Scouts of America is choosing to ignore the cries of millions, including religious institutions, current scouting families, and corporate sponsors, but these cries will not be silenced. We're living in a culture where hurting young gay people because of who they are is unpopular and discriminatory. They had the chance to end the pain this ban has caused to young people and parents, they chose to extend the pain."
Y'all, it's three months. Three. Months. I am curious as to why GLAAD thinks a vote taken today would be more likely to go in their favor? What if the executive board did vote today and the vote failed? How far back would this effort had been pushed then?
Zach Wahls, founder of Scouts for Equality (and whom Reason.tv interviewed here) was also disappointed:
"This is an abdication of responsibility," said straight Eagle Scout Zach Wahls, the founder of Scouts for Equality. "By postponing this decision, the BSA has caved to those who argue that their anti-gay attitudes trump basic Scouting values of kindness, courtesy and bravery. Scouting was built on a foundation of respect and dignity. Today, the BSA cracked that foundation."
The frustration is palpable, but feels a bit overwrought. It's reminiscent of the frustration at the amount of time it took to eliminate the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. There were surveys. There were interviews. There were hearings. There were classes on it. And there was an endless amount of kvetching about how long it was taking, and even discussions of President Obama ordering an end to the policy through an executive order.
But there's a reason why large institutions are slow to change, particularly when participation is completely voluntary, like it is for the United States military and the Boy Scouts. The leadership of the institution, as separated as it is from a significant chunk of its membership, needs to determine that the institution is prepared for the cultural change. Blame it on our nation's current apparent worship of executive power, but it's a myth to believe that "leadership" involves the ability to simply change an institution's culture with a snap of the fingers. It doesn't work that way. In fact, that attitude is the hallmark of a bad leader, the bureaucratic middle manager who thinks he can control his company culture through the formalization of a host of written policies.
As all the research and interviews and planning dragged on while the military managed the dismantling of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," the information that came out became more and more clear that, by and large, its culture was going to handle the change just fine. Confidence in the transition increased. Resistance practically melted away among military leaders. The change has been a complete success.
More importantly, because of the time spent getting cultural buy-in for this policy change, there will be no going back, ever. If Obama used executive power to simply order a military change, well the next president could simply reverse it. But because, ultimately, a vast majority of the "stakeholders" came on board, the likelihood of the reversal of the policy is about non-existent, regardless of what some social conservative politicians might say.
Putting the Boy Scout membership change to a large vote may appear like "wimping out," but only if you refuse to acknowledge the voluntary relationship between the parts of the organization.
If advocates of gays joining the Boy Scouts are truly confident that their time has come, they really should be celebrating this decision. They need to be continuing to work with the various troops in pushing up cultural change from the bottom, not expecting a handful of people at the top to order it with a stroke of a pen.
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Scott wins Alt-Text for today!
Congratulations, Mr. Shackford!
Agreed.
Billy do you like gladiator movies?
Have you heard the recent radio ad (I forget for what product) that talks about "men don't cry....at the end of gladiator movies...that's just some of his awesome leaking out".
And I keep thinking, "'Gladiator Movie' watching doesn't mean what you think it means..."
The leaking awesomeness is creepy.
I never leak it, but I do condense it out of the air for my own uses.
...for my own uses.
Lubrication?
Ok first Kudos on the Pic and alt text, god knows we need the levity around here.
That said I would just like to say one thing to the Gay Rights folks.
Look guys I'm mostly on your side, and if it wasn't for your hypocracy in throwing the Polygamists and Polyamorists under the bus I'd be 100% in your court but for fucks sake you won, the god damned war is over, sure there are a handful of nutjobs out there still railing against your "crimes of nature" but they are nearly universally recognized as just that, nutjobs that no one takes seriously. So can you please just STFU now because really I am getting sick and tired of hearing about it.
Look I get it, the Boy Scouts are a quasi governmental organization and they are clearly dead wrong for their idiotic 19th century ban but face it they are going to change their tune one way or the other because they have no choice, the culture has changed and gay relationships are considered just as valid as straight ones, you don't need to turn their dragging their feet kicking and screaming into the 21st century into front page news because even those of us who agree with you are getting sick and tired of hearing about it.
Mmm hmm...OK...go on...
Um, all I got left is a suggestion that once you do get in, can you do something about their abysmal fundraising sales. I mean at least Girl Scout cookies are good.
I'd recomend taking clues from the movie Risky Business (maybe a joint fund raiser with the Girl Scouts?) but that might not go over so well.
Did you know Girl Scout Cookies don't have any actual "girl scout" in them?
What a gyp!
"gyp"
ROMA HATER!!!
Second.
/Scruffy (the Janitor)
I suppose the gays can stop kidnapping reporters and forcing them at gunpoint to write stories about it. That'd be fair.
But do consider how it is being gay and living in a heteronormative world. Hetero bullshit gets pretty fucking tiresome at times too, and it's ubiquitous.
Gay's have only themselves to blame for not embracing our war loving, profit taking, woman fucking culture.
Imagine being a leftie, when most things are designed for right handed people because that's the case for the vast majority of people. It must be awful.
So do short doorways, sleeves that aren't long enough, and kitchen counters at mid-thigh height, but I realize I'm an outlier so I don't bitch that things are organized around the fat part of the bell curve.
"I'm like some huge monster that came out of the ocean to destroy bodegas!"
I hadn't really ever watch that, but my daughter got us started on watching it on Netflix. It's not bad.
NY, hell, though... I felt like I was in a Lego world when I went to Ecuador last summer. As far as I could tell there were literally no pants my size in the entire country.
I hit my head about ever 5 minutes when I saw touring a Mayan ruin. I couldn't believe they didn't have anyone over 5 feet tall.
This, times a bajillion. Given that gays represent, at best, 3-5% of the population, what the fuck else is the rest of the world going to be but "heteronormative"?
Fabulous?
Hey, if you want to try to mainstream fabulousness, far be it from me to stop you.
I just wish you'd grow some perspective. The Boy Scouts delaying a decision for three months isn't some horrendous setback for equality and human dignity that merits full-throated denunciations from GLAAD.
Why not issue a statement along these lines, instead?
"While we're disappointed that the Scouts aren't ready to end their ban on gay members immediately, we're pleased they're taking the matter seriously, and we'd welcome the opportunity to work with them, as a voice for young men who'd like to participate but right now can't, as they continue to review their membership policies."
And if Rasillo took the time to bitch about tall people venting steam and being so exhausting with their constant demands, you might see it as equally lacking in perspective.
Perhaps the difference is that there aren't organized grievance lobbies of tall people -- TPAAD (Tall People's Alliance Against Defamation), for example -- who exhibit a visible-from-orbit snit-fit over every real or perceived slighted against the vertically-gifted.
Just a thought.
You're going to be a very unhappy citizen of Gay Earth once the Agenda is fully realized.
Hetero bullshit gets pretty fucking tiresome at times too, and it's ubiquitous.
I'm sure that's right, but the same goes for gay rightser bullshit, you know. And yes, its pretty fucking ubiquitous these days. And I say that as an apathetarian who is pretty sympathetic to their goals.
Re: Tony,
Or just stop dating them.
Zing!!!
I wasn't aware that I'd ever thrown the polygamists under a bus, literally or figuratively. But please do go on beating that gay rights strawman.
And rather than presume to tell you to STFU, I encourage you to continue blathering on.
Are you arguing that many gays haven't or just trying disingenuously to avoid his point by claiming you, in particular, haven't?
What do gays and polygamists have to do with each other? How are they in any way connected? Polygamists tend to be heterosexuals.
Seriously? Because in every gay marriage debate ever, if someone says "next we'll have to legalize polygamy" the gays then start attacking the polygamists, because clearly love has to be be between exactly 2 consenting adults, regardless of gender.
Yes, polygamy tends to enter the debate as a fallacious slippery-slope argument made by gay marriage opponents. As it is obviously fallacious, there's no need for gays to comment one way or the other on the issue of polygamy.
That being said I have absolutely no problem with polygamists asserting a civil rights grievance and taking their case to court. Good luck to them. Why gays should have to defend polygamists in addition to themselves completely escapes me.
Do tell us, Spacy, how you distinguish polygamous marriages from gay marriages under the principled arguments made for recognizing gay marriage.
Do try to avoid repeating the arguments made against gay marriage, only with "plural" substituted for "gay".
Dean, he just told us how you distinguish: it's fallacious, obviously.
Also, there is no reason for him (or any gay person) to comment on it, even though the point everyone is making is that gay people do comment on it, and often negatively.
My point is gay marriage advocates don't have to distinguish them. They are not advocating for polygamy, they are advocating for legal rights for gay couples.
And if it's a slippery slope then heterosexual marriage is on it too. How can we let two straight people marry and not let ten straight people marry??!
My point is gay marriage advocates don't have to distinguish them.
Given their arguments for gay marriage, this leaves them two options:
(1) Yup, plural marriage should be legal, too. Which, oddly, I don't recall one single one of them saying.
(2) Nope, regardless of the fact that every argument I just made supports legalizing plural marriage, it shouldn't be legalized because . . .
why, exactly? The fact that the gay marriage movement pretty much came down on option (2) tells me they were more interested in special pleading and pulling up the ladder once they were on board. Which doesn't exactly endear them to me.
And I am telling you that you are a hypocritical asshole for not defending the rights of those who wish to live polygamous lifestyles because it is not a fallacious slippery slope, the arguments for recognizing gay marriage are EXACTLY the same as for recognizing Plural marriage as are the arguments against it.
See fallacious slippery slope argument is bringing in marrying your dog or your kids because in those cases there is a entity incapable of consent. That is a slippery slope argument.
Any argument valid for keeping plural marriage illegal is equally valid for keeping gay marriage illegal ergo it is not a slippery slope and plural marriage should have been included not thrown under the bus as "not my problem".
It isn't about defending polygamists, it is about defending the premises they put forward for why gay rights/marriage have the moral high ground. It just so happens that many of them disavow those premises when applied to plural relationships.
The premise is that gay people should be treated equally under the law as straight people. Straight people aren't allowed to enter legally recognized plural marriages, so it's a complete non-issue.
Straight people aren't allowed to marry people of the same sex either.
Nobody's arguing it isn't a liberalization of the definition of marriage. Just that you don't get to argue against this particular instance of liberalization by invoking a slippery slope to others.
I'm not arguing against it. I think that polygamists should be able to marry too (though even better would be if "marriages" were all be a religious/cultural thing, unrelated to the government).
You're arguing against it, and you don't have a reason why changing the sex of the people involved is different than changing the number of people. So you're not out for marriage equality, you're out for you, and don't actually believe the arguments (being treated equally, etc) you are using.
It's different because it's obviously different. It's an accepted norm, encompassing heterosexual and homosexual people, that humans marry in pairs. I have no problem with people attempting to change that norm, but it's a completely separate issue.
I haven't actually argued against legal recognition of polygamy. I have no dog in the fight and virtually no opinion on the matter. You're trying to force me to have an opinion on it in order to have one on gay marriage, even though it's a completely separate issue.
It's an accepted norm, encompassing monogamist and polygamist people, that humans marry opposite genders.
It has been an accepted norm, throughout the world and throughout history, that marriage includes polygamy. The only exception has been those cultures influenced, directly or indirectly, by Roman law.
Of course, at present that includes almost every culture, but that is also relatively new.
Monogamy is not a Christian issue. The only church that became established by a state prior to the establishment of the church as the state religion of the Roman empire - which is to say, what is now the Ethiopian Orthodox church, has no prohibition against polygamy.
Funny, this is the EXACT same argument that my Religous nutjob brother uses for why Gays already have the same rights as straight people...
He does not have the right to marry a man so neither should you.
And yet here you are saying "Straight people do not have the right to plural marriage so neither should anyone".
And you do not see the hypocracy in this?
All I see is an extremely tortured refusal to adopt the obviously correct and reasonable opinion.
I didn't say straight people shouldn't have a right to legally recognized plural marriages. I said they don't. Nobody's equal rights are being denied, since it's not a right anyone has.
My opinion on whether plural marriages should be legal is totally irrelevant, but polygamy activists are perfectly welcome to take their case to courts. They have to do the hard work themselves though and not expect gays to do it for them.
And by the same logic, until just recently nobody, straight or otherwise had the right to marry someone of the same gender hence no one's equal rights were being denied.
Ergo you had no constitutional case to pursue and you agree that gay marriage should have remained illegal.
Gays' equal rights (to marry people of the same gender) aren't being denied, since it's not a right anyone has. Gay people are perfectly free to marry someone of the opposite gender, which is the exact same right that straight people have.
The obtuseness of this particular argument doesn't diminish with repetition. If gays are only allowed to marry people they by definition have no interest in marrying, their rights are hardly equal.
Ah, so it is "they should be allowed to marry who they love"... which you don't apply to polygamists.
As it is obviously fallacious
sorry but the only thing fallacious is your line of reasoning. Marriage laws in the country presume two people of opposite sex who are unrelated. Damn right when one of those is no longer applicable, someone will challenge the others.
I don't much care who marries who but your argument is like defending affirmative action because discriminating against the "bad" group is okay. If you want marriage equality, then things like numbers and relatives are immaterial.
Meh. Gay people were forced to defend themselves from the spurious accusation that they wanted polygamy and bestiality and cats and dogs living together and all the other nonsense objections that socons came up with. They defended themselves from a strawman by narrowing their complaint, and now they are getting in the neck for that too.
And if I thought for a second that defending the polygamists had anything to do with principle and it wasn't just another stick to beat gay marriage proponents with, it still would be much of an argument anyway. If you truly support getting the government out of marriage, polygamy is included by default.
Exactly. But it seems there are some who don't want government out of marriage, they want government to sanction their particular kind of marriage and then close the door. Or at least they want to avoid the implications of getting government out of marriage.
The only implication of government getting out of marriage is that marriage would cease to exist. People are not restricted from living in a polyamorous household. People are not restricted from pair-bonding with the person of their choosing and calling themselves married or partnered or Whos from Whoville.
If you want to live a life that is tantamount to one in a society with no government recognition of marriage, then don't seek a marriage certificate. If there were no legal disparity then there would be no conversation. The only thing at issue is the fact that gay couples are treated differently from straight couples under the law.
they want government to sanction their particular kind of marriage and then close the door
I think the last part is a self-serving assumption. It's sort like assuming that all marijuana legalization advocates what the drug war in full force on everything else. That some do doesn't validate either the argument for marijuana or the argument of all the others that just aren't bring it up.
Don't collectivize.
What SF said. Even if all gay rights people but one rejected the idea of polygamy for practical political reasons, that does not make the argument for gay marriage any less strong. Judge the argument on its merits, not based on what else people who tend to agree support or don't support.
wareagle,
The argument at hand is that there is no legitimate reason for government to deny gay people the same marriage rights as straight people. Among those rights are not, at the moment, polygamy and incest. Yes the legal challenge is intent on changing the traditional gender requirement. But that's all. Number and relative restrictions are completely separate issues, either defensible or not on their own merits.
Gays have the same marriage rights as straight people: they can marry someone person of the opposite sex.
If by "same marriage rights" you mean "the ability to marry who you are in love in", that exact same argument applies to polygamists too. Stop being a bigot.
Then let polygamists make the argument. I'm not arguing on behalf of them, because I don't want to. It's not the subject of this thread, and I don't have an opinion I'm ready to articulate on that completely unrelated subject.
So we can call you a bigot now, right?
There's a big question of consent in polygamous marriages. Traditionally they are severely repressive of women. IF there is a constituency of people who want to enter non-repressive polyamorous relationships and have them recognized by government, I have no problem with that.
Re: Tony,
You're absolutely right, but alas you keep missing the point: The government has no right whatsoever to tell anyone if they can be married or are married. The government has no right to sanction or bless marriages. PERIOD.
You have the correct conclusion but still operate under the same flawed principle that only government makes things "legitimate", as if it were the Underwriters Laboratory for everything. You're a big fool if you think that, and I hope for your sake that you stop hitching your horses to that wagon.
"What do gays and polygamists have to do with each other? How are they in any way connected?"
With plural marriage, three gay dudes can plural-gay-marry, so there's that.
You lost me at "disingenuously," NEM. Happy to respond to you if you keep it civil. Better luck next time.
Disingenuously crosses the line from civil?
Nah, you answered my question with "My point was that that gay rights activists are not the monolithic bloc you seem to believe they are." You're just trying to skirt the issue that a non-trivial number of activists do indeed throw the plurals under the bus by apparently applying an unreasonable requirement of unanimity that I doubt you apply to other groups.
But what difference does it make if all of the other activists make disingenuous arguments? The arguments made by the consistent minority are still valid.
This is parallel to the war on drugs in some ways. Legalization of cannabis seems pretty likely at some time before too long. Everything else should be legalized too, but that just isn't going to happen anytime soon. Should people working to legalize pot be criticized and shamed for not throwing all of their weight behind legalizing heroin as well?
That is a good analogy and also brings up the point of practicality.
If gay rights activists refused to separate their grievances from those of polygamists, they'd get exactly nowhere. Society is getting to be OK with legalized gay marriage and cannabis. Not so much polygamy and heroin. You don't win a war by fighting all the battles at once.
Do you really want me to go to Google and pull out statements from Gay Rights activists decrying attempts to draw parallels between recognition of gay marriage and plural marriage and arguing that the 2 have nothing whatsoever in common even though the exact same logical arguments in favor of gay marriage apply to plural marriage?
I think he believes you're admonishing the commenters here who support the sort of change going on right now.
Again, I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do or what not to do.
My point was that that gay rights activists are not the monolithic bloc you seem to believe they are.
And please nobody light a match, all that straw dust floating around is teh dangerous.
Tonio, I don't think he means regular commenters here specifically, he's just talking to the Gay Rights Movement crowd in general. Though I could be wrong.
No you are right given that my rant was directed at "The gay rights folks" and not specific individuals
while much of what you write is true, it is not enough for the activists. They don't just want what they want, they want everyone else to want it, too, and that does not happen with any issue.
Besides, if there were no boogeymen to rail against, they would have no political clout. Get used to it. Activists got to, uh, activate? actify? act? Something.
it is not enough for the activists
Sure, there are some activists who will continue to rail against any perceived slight, but the majority of gay people just want our rights and to be able to get on with our lives. Just as there are some black activists who claim that our society is overwhelmingly racist.
And to be absolutely clear, the BSA is a private organization, so this isn't a rights issue; unlike marriage.
unfortunately, Tonio, it is the loud ones who get all the attention. And I separate activists from community members who care about an issue.
That BSA is private is lost in the discussion.
"That BSA is private is lost in the discussion."
I think that the BSA is as much to blame for that as anyone. They want to be seen as this grand American institution, almost part of the government, with the President as its ceremonial leader. If they want to be seen that way, then it should be no surprise that a lot of people who don't have much connection to them would have a strong opinion on their policy regarding gay people.
"I haven't had this much sex since I was a boy scout leader."
Epi, have you ever seen a grown man naked?
That's not awesomeness leaking from his ass...
"Someone's" been watching "gladiator movies" again...
No but I am willing to learn, is there a special class for that or something?
The LBGT community are splitters, the real sexual revolutionaries are the QUILTBAG community, Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay.
Where does "buckeye" fit into this?
I mean besides someone's ass.
SPLITTERS!
SPLITTER!
You've left out the Pedophile, Autoerotic, Necrophile, Zoophile, Internet-erotic, Ephebophile, and Scat communities. You know, the PANZIES.
Now, those herbisexuals - they're sick. What sort of pervert would want to have sex with a rutabaga?
You got this one right, I think Scott. Our local Council sent out a questionaire to us (leaders) about a month / six weeeks ago on the topic. It's clear that there's change coming - and it's as much driven by people on the inside quietly advocating and working the channels as it is from the firestorm outside. But if I were BSA management I would also being working extra hard to make sure the organization could handle not just the change in policy (and associated chanegs in working policies, like rules for outings and such), but the financial implications. The franchise model BSA uses means that a ton of units are likely to drop once they change policy unless they manage it really carefully, and I don't see any of the organizations that dumped BSA support (United Way, etc.) saying their dollars will flow back once the ban goes away. It is not surprising BSA is taking a while on this, but I also think it will be unsurprising when they vote, in that they will change their policy.
"The Scout Law is NOT a suicide pact".
I don't see any of the organizations that dumped BSA support (United Way, etc.) saying their dollars will flow back once the ban goes away
O rly?
Sorry, I know a UW coordinator for a major corp and the only thing keeping them from funding BSA is that one policy.
Let's revisit this in a year or so with hard numbers about members and troops lost and gained and funding increases.
Sorry, I know a UW coordinator for a major corp and the only thing keeping them from funding BSA is that one policy.
Are they saying that to BSA? Because I don't see that happening. If not, they should. It would help their calculus.
I know that they've told BSA and Salvation Army that their anti-gay policies are why they won't fund them. I don't know if they're allowed to make promises about future funding to anyone.
I understand that, but that's part of the concern, I think - it's easy to turn the funding tap off but there's no guarantee that it'll turn back on. The money BSA'll lose from the units that drop is near certain, what it will gain is less so - so if I were them I'd be spending some time on that calculation, too.
The petulant gay rightsers need to recognize that actions beget reactions. Push people too hard, and they push back.
A nice statement of understanding and support, with serene optimism of a favorable outcome, might have actually been helpful to their cause.
Pitching a hissy fit because a large organization wants three more whole freakin' months to make a decision certainly won't help, and it might just hurt.
See, also, fly-catching, honey v. vinegar.
So because of these selectively cited "hissy fits," the BSA might just extend its anachronistic bigotry for longer than three months? Who's the petulant side again?
Ponder the meaning of the phrase "certainly won't help, and it might just hurt". Consider, also, that they can hurt their cause even if they win the vote, by alienating people by acting petulant and throwing hissy fits.
While nobody likes a poor loser, people fucking despise a poor winner.
This is very true, though I've never thought of it before. I wonder if it's because people think "well, of course he's upset, he just lost", but can't make that excuse if he won.
Where have you been, son. You think gay rights advocates might run the risk of alienating people? No fucking kidding?
Tony, they're winning a cultural/political struggle, largely because they have convinced a fair number of people not to be alienated by their lifestyle. Throwing that away for no good reason strikes me as pretty stupid.
I think this is also a big concern (and I understand you might not see it that way Tony). Once this passes (and it will, eventually, probably in 3 months), I predict places like Buzzfeed and the like will post royal tons of pictures of gay Boy Scouts, just as they did of military families when DADT was repealed or when gay military members came home. BSA hates any depiction of the Scouts doing anything other than service work, nice wholesome camping activities, that sort of thing. I am certain their fear of the inevitable victory dance and the blowback that will create on their managed image of the organization is factoring into their calculus. Not to say that such a victory dance should not be allowed or is inappropriate, just that it will have consequences.
I don't see any eventuality except increased tolerance of gay people, no matter the organization or social custom. There is simply the inevitability of old bigots dying off and increasingly socially tolerant young people growing up. There is no risk of backlash because the whole point behind increased tolerance is seeing gay people as no different from straight people--warts and all. But nobody's who's seen that light is going to suddenly start collectively punishing gay people. And if they did, that would be petulance.
Sure, but I guess I'm not as black and white about it (or as personally invested) as you. From my perspective as a leader this is going to happen, soon, and it will be because of internal pressure from those of us who are socially tolerant and want the organization to be that way too.
And even the socially tolerant can be put off by the big victory dance. I don't want to see tons of pictures of gay Boy Scouts celebrating, because I don't want to think of the BSA as an organization that is in any way identified with sexual identity, hetero or homo. I doubt very much BSA wants those images either. In any case no matter what the BSA is not going to be able to make its policy change quietly and gradually, and so when they do they'll have to deal with the victory dance blowback, and that could be just as harmfulto the organization. For anyone who wants to be a Boy Scout - including those members of the LGBT community who want to join Scouting instead of just scoring the victory - there should be some concern that the organization's image and mission doesn't suffer too much from the (inevitable) spotlight.
I'm sure everything will be fine, just as it has been with the armed forces.
Agree.
Good article. An extra three months to make sure the policy has buy-in is a pretty good idea. This will get a lot more people on their side when they make the change, just because they were consulted.
I watched Philidelphia last night. It was filmed 20 years ago. It was clear from watching the film (I saw it in the theater in 1993) that attitudes with respect to gays have changed dramatically over the last 20 years.
I'm sure this has been covered somewhere:
What's the Girl Scouts' official policy toward lesbians?
You're here all week, right? Veal...waitress.
I'm paraphrasing from memory but it went something along the lines of ...
"Sexuality is has no part in the girl scouts eithe positive or negative and therefore it is a total non issue"
I like it. Too bad the Boy Scouts couldn't get away with saying the same thing.
I must have missed the part where the LGBT community owned stock of the BSA.
"Private organization does what private organizations always do - act as if the Right Of Free Association still exists. Social engineers go bonkers. This and the weather tonight, at 11."
I sure am glad free association means a group isn't allowed to be criticized, or else your statement would be really stupid.
Re: darius404,
Who said anything about not critizing them? Talk is cheap. The implication above is that the LGBT has some legitimate STAKE on this issue. I missed the part where they do.
You missed the part where you had a point to make.
Did black, Jewish, and women golfers not have a "stake" in exclusion from private country clubs?
You ask too much of society. You want government never to stick its nose in discriminatory private practice. Then you weirdly complain when private people apply social pressure on private organizations. Let the latter happen and the former won't be necessary.
Re: Tony,
Not unless they owned stock on the club. If they don't, then the club can do whatever it wants. Just because government interfered on against these voluntary associations through threats or lawsuits or by men with guns does not mean the right to freely associate ceases to exist. It only means the government acted like a bully, that's all.
Of course I want that, because government sticks its nose only to obtain more power, not to right apparent wrongs.
I don't complain about private organizations speaking against other private organizations. Talk is cheap. I am against initiation of force from one organization against another and especially when the other group is acting according to its right to freely associate with whomsoever they wish.
Back again to the title of the article: Who the fuck cares what the LGBT will do? They have NO stake in the BSA.
Nobody is initiating any force. All they're doing is talking. You say it's cheap, but it's getting results, so it looks like you're wrong.
You're not making an argument, you're acting like a bitter old coot.
Re: Tony,
I guess all those lawsuits and boycotts were nothing more than terms of endearment...
You're still a dishonest prick, Tony. You haven't lost the touch.
So lawsuits and boycotts are forms of aggression now? Shall we outlaw them?
"I don't complain about private organizations speaking against other private organizations. "
Uh, that seems to be exactly what you are doing. The government isn't doing anything here. The SC already said that BSA can exclude gays if they want to. That is settled. This is all pressure from private organizations, and from within the BSA itself.
Re: Zeb,
No. What I am pointing out is that, if we are strict in our principles of voluntary action and non-aggression, then there is nothing to be interested about what the LGBT community is going to do or not. The preoccupation with their feelins would be pointless, because people still enjoy a right to freely associate with whomsoever they like.
However, YOU and I know that it is not pointless and that these groups will continue harassing the BSA into compliance. The tone of the title of the article almost suggests that the LGBT has a legitimate stake in the BSA - property, assets, etc. They DON'T. That's it.
Last thing: NOBODY - nobody - has a right to be liked. Period.
What if the BSA wants to be allowed to freely associate with openly gay people?
You're trying to argue that the only pro-liberty position is for the BSA to continue its discrimination policy. And failing, I might add.
Except your ENTIRE POST was about criticizing their criticism as illegitimate, as if their not owning "stock" means they have no right to complain about something they dislike. Claiming "free association, so don't criticize" is really stupid.
OM, this is the right way to change things. Had the supreme court told BSA they had to accept gays, that would be bad. Private individuals and groups pressuring them to do so is good. That is the right way to bring about social change.
Along with the right to free association goes the right of others to say what they think about your freely associated group and try to convince others to agree.
Your objection to this is just weird.
Re: Zeb,
You're kidding, right? Imagine that you had ten people in front of your house, screaming and yelling, all day, asking you to paint your body Martian green. BOTH YOU and them are private parties. Now tell me how that is a good thing?
The VOLUNTARYST thing to do is to NOT join the Boys Scouts, NOT participate with them and maybe even creating your own Gay Scout Association to compete. The reason for the undue pressure is precisely because the LGBT is not interested in using its own resources to create its own organization; they want OTHERS to pony up with theirs (i.e. they want to "share" their facilities, camping areas, etc. so they don't have to build their own.) That's what this is about: turning private property into public property.
Lots and lots of (probably most) people involved in the Boy Scouts are supportive of changing its policy. The policy is discriminatory and hurtful. What could possibly be wrong with the Boy Scouts voluntarily changing it? The fact that you personally don't like change?
There are only 3 ways an organization can change:
1) The people in the organization can change their minds on something by themselves
2) The people in the organization can be replaced over time with different people who have different stances on something
3) The people in the organization can have their minds changed by people outside the organization
By your critique, every way for a group to change on an issue is illegitimate. You're saying every voluntary organization should stay exactly the same forever? No change is permissible, because anyone who dislikes something should just drop out?
I missed the part where the BSA (a private organization) and the military (a government-managed and tax-payer funded [at gunpoint] organization) are comparable or the same thing.
Must've missed it, somewhere...
I must've missed the part where the public/private distinction means that private organizations change instantly.
Must've missed it, somewhere....
Re: darius404,
You missed the part where that was the point, darius. The conclusion from Mr. Shackford (an unfortunate name) is that the BSA - like the military before it - is a big organization that takes its time to change. This despite the fact that a) the military is a government organization subject to policy changes from Congress or the president, that is by public mandate, whereas the BSA is a private organization that is subject only to its own internal policies, not the government's or others, and b) their apparent slowness has nothing to do with the size but with the more likely fact that they simply don't want to change, because "fuck you, we don't want to."
And it's own internal policies are unilaterally imposed by one person, not decided by a council of selected individuals that may take time to change their minds on something? Yeah, TOTALLY different from other deliberative bodies.
Private organization facing withering social criticism and reduced funding from large institutional donors grudgingly decides to change policy, prepares to lose some local affiliates as a result. Socons unhappy.
kinda OT, but interesting case vis vis qualified immunity and hot pursuit...
(1) CIVIL RIGHTS ACT LAWSUIT: WARRANTLESS ENTRY INTO CURTILAGE IN GANG NEIGHBORHOOD IN HOT PURSUIT OF SUSPECT WHERE ARREST PROBABLE CAUSE WAS ONLY FOR DISOBEYING ORDER TO STOP WAS NOT JUSTIFIED UNDER EITHER EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES OR EMERGENCY EXCEPTIONS TO THE WARRANT REQUIREMENT ? In Sims v. Stanton, ___ F.3d ___, 2012 WL 5995447 (9th Cir., Dec. 3, 2012) the Ninth Circuit denies qualified immunity to officers who kicked down the gate to a six-foot-fence-enclosed front yard in pursuit of a fleeing individual where the officers had probable cause to arrest only for the misdemeanor of disobedience of an order to stop for police
...
Stanton does not argue that this case involves probable cause for any crime more serious than the single misdemeanor of disobeying an officer's order to stop. We do not doubt that Stanton believed that Patrick might escape arrest if he did not follow him into Sims's front yard. The possible escape of a fleeing misdemeanant, assuming Patrick had been fleeing, is not, however, a serious enough consequence to justify a warrantless entry. . . .
...
dunphy comment: interesting... hot pursuit for a "minor" misdemeanor not justified if it encroaches on curtilage AND the 9th circuit denied qualified immunity for same...
The Court determines that the officers are not entitled to qualified immunity from damages because "a reasonable officer should have known that the warrantless entry into Sims's front yard violated the Fourth Amendment because clearly established law afforded notice that Sims's front yard was curtilage and, was therefore, protected to the same extent as her home." The Court also determines that the law was clearly established that exigent circumstances do not permit a warrantless entry in pursuit of a misdemeanant
pretty "pro liberty" decision especially considering there was a crime pursued for, and because QI was denied. note to self: hot pursuit for a felony is better.
note: i can think of two recent cases where the 9th denied QI and the scotus subsequently overturned and reinstated it. 9th circuit is, on the whole, much more likely to deny QI than the scotus
That would be because the 9th is by far the most liberal circut court. Whether this is a good or a bad thing depends on the case and your POV but it is what it is.
Sometimes I wonder of it's "liberalism" is related to it's distance from DC.
true dat. if i was a bettin' man, i'd bet that the case in chief is upheld, but that qualified immunity is reinstated by the scotus.
oak harbor gun ban overturned.
http://www.komonews.com/news/l.....41801.html
much like seattle, they tried to ban guns in contravention of state law/constitution and that simply won't fly.
nice RKBA victory here in WA
Yeah, good luck with that. They can do that with someone else's kids - not mine.
My wife and I did not have kids to have them turned into social experiments by people who feel lonely in this world. They can go all fuck themselves.
I don't think anyone has proposed forcing you to have your kids be part of BSA, so you have nothing to worry about there.
Re: Zeb,
Exactly, and the moment they let people start indoctrinating my kids about being "tolerant", that is the last day they will continue their scouting days. It is one thing to RESPECT a person's life, liberty and property and never EVER initiate force against them. It is QUITE ANOTHER to be obligated to LIKE THEM. NOBODY has that right - NOBODY.
There's nothing forcing anyone to like or be tolerant of anyone except the social pressure to be a decent human being.
Re: Tony,
You're absolutely right, but alas you keep missing the point: The government has no right whatsoever to tell anyone if they can be married or are married. The government has no right to sanction or bless marriages. PERIOD.
You have the correct conclusion but still operate under the same flawed principle that only government makes things "legitimate", as if it were the Underwriters Laboratory for everything. You're a big fool if you think that, and I hope for your sake that you stop hitching your horse to that wagon.
Centuries of legal tradition say governments do have a right to sanction marriage. And considering marriage, in the form anyone is actually talking about, is a legal contract, it's hard for government not to be involved as the agent that enforces contracts.
This is one issue where everyone can be happy. If you don't want a government-recognized marriage, don't get a marriage license. Nobody's throwing you in the slammer for calling yourself married without one, or for calling yourself the king of the leprechauns for that matter.
This is as irrelevant a side-issue as polygamy. Here in the real world, government issues marriage contracts. Since that's not likely to stop happening anytime soon, government is constitutionally required (many think) not to discriminate against gay people when doing so.
"Centuries of legal tradition say governments do have a right to sanction marriage"
Centuries?
Dude learn some frigging history. In a purely technical sense government sanctioned marriages have been around for just barely 2 centuries but they did not become common until about 150 years ago and did not become the norm until about 120 years ago.
Perhaps this is not the orthodox 'cosmotarian' POV on this issue... but here goes anyway.
I DONT GIVE A SHIT IF THE BOY SCOUTS DISCRIMINATE
ITS THE FUCKING* BOY SCOUTS
(*Note: no insinuation of people fucking boys intended AT ALL... NO HOMO!! NTTAWWT)
I am super pro gay-equality. I support the whole marriage thing. I don't think its the business of the state to either 'Approve' or 'Disapprove' of the issue at all.
HOWEVER - Why the hell should I be up in arms if some voluntary organization has their own policies about members? And what the fuck- is there some tragic *violation of human rights* at work here?? Whats stopping Gay Rangers of America forming their own society?? NOTHING. I don't even think this shit deserves to be news. I see no reason at all to care.
Am i in the minority on this one? If so = STILL DONT CARE.
But you're STILL GOING TO COMMENT on the matter.
Fuck you asshat, your entire existance is an 'unecessary expression of a worthless opinion'. For the love of god, there is no single entity with more vapid, inane, useless and thoughtless commentary.... and yet somehow you feel justifiedd pick nits with others? Eat a bag of bloody dicks and set yourself on fire already.
I've just rarely seen someone not care so passionately.
WHY SHOULD I??
Nobody said you should.
p.s. I'll give you an example of something similar that made me @#()$* nuts.
Some congress-creature was debating issues in the Dodd-Frank legislation... and they made a comment on the subject of the 'discrimination' of financial services organizations, in how they hire *so few lesbians, gays, etc*. They demonstrated this by showing that 'less than 5% in the industry' are LGBT or whatever.
Well guess the fuck what? I'd bet 'less than 5%' of Fucking Steelworkers are LGBT too. Just as there are not a large number of ballet dancers or hairstylists *recently returned from combat in Iraq*. WTF!!?? VETERAN DISCRIMINATION!!
You see my point. Where is the huge constituency of Young Gay Outdoorsmen yearning to learn to skin their first rabbit? (crickets) FUCK THIS SHIT
They demonstrated this by showing that 'less than 5% in the industry' are LGBT or whatever.
Isn't that pretty much in line with their percentage of the population?
i believe the dogma of the Church of Victimhood is that "everyone deserves 50%"
The BSA is apparently having to decide whether to lose corporate sponsors, or lose the support of the LDS church. A sticky situation, to be sure.
There was a radio interview with Zach Wahls just yesterday before the committee decided to delay. Zach is from this area and he is leading the organization "Scouts for Equality" and was the author of My Two Moms.
The reason I bring this up is that during the interview, he basically told the interviewer that the policy would pass tomorrow because within the structure of the organization, the policy change would have never come before the board if it weren't going to pass. He implied that it was a done deal. He is well connected in his lobbying efforts being an eagle scout himself and his organization has been directly in contact with some of the board members.
So based on that, I think the reason the community is apoplectic about this is that they probably thought they had secured the votes to make it happen based on their talks with people and were furious when it didn't come through. Activists look at the world through a different lens. They felt betrayed by the delay, and reacted accordingly.
Yeah, yeah, all of this private, non-government pressure is good and expected in a free society.
But, I wish private organizations had the balls to say: "Why don't we let homosexuals in our organization? Because fuck you, that's why!"
I wish political correctness didn't make people weak at the knees and unwilling to stand by what they believe.
I wish our fuckstick of a president didn't utter his inane stupidities about things that don't concern him. This confuses the minds of state-loving drones, who start to think that government power is on their side. After all, they believe their world view is so good, so moral, that it's a given that it should be applied by force.
Wishful thinking:
"More importantly, because of the time spent getting cultural buy-in for this policy change, there will be no going back, ever."