Big Surprise: Industries Benefiting From Tax Breaks Want to Keep Them
Just as Big Oil would like to keep its tax breaks, so too do the chief executives of renewable energy companies. The pleading press release issued by the special interests, ah, that is, the representatives of the hydro, geothermal, and biomass companies that generate electricity explains:
Executives from the hydropower, geothermal and biomass power industries called on congressional leaders to extend the production tax credit through 2016 for hydropower, geothermal and biomass.
The three industries operate in parts of the country not often associated with renewable energy — particularly the Southeast and Mountain West — and company and trade association leaders expressed concern for a looming crisis that has put thousands of jobs in these states at risk. The call comes as opponents of renewable energy tax policy place the future of these industries in jeopardy, according to the group.
Of course, the executives are not concerned about protecting their grubby profits; it's all about JOBS!
Go here for a superb article, The Difference Between a Tax Break and a Subsidy, by Reason contributing columnist A. Barton Hinkle in which he explains how tax credits an ideologue doesn't like are "subsidies" and ones that the same ideologue does like are mere "tax benefits." If tax credits are a subsidy to Big Oil, they are also a subsidy to Sanctified Renewables, or they are not for both.
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But what about the Children?
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Uh, shouldn't you be Lolita?
Exactly. Lola is the chick with the dick. Somebody needs to get their stories straight. And for those of us already on the run from the Feds, we don't exactly appreciate the kind of language that would get a sniffer up in here.
But a tax break is different from a tax credit, correct? Maybe I am just making the same mistake as everyone else, but my thinking is that a tax break is the government taking less money, where as tax credits are distributions of other tax dollars so that you don't have to pay as much.
Does that sound right, or am I splitting too fine a hair?
It depends on whether a tax credit can generate a refund or not, which I believe some can and others can't. ie, if you owe $100 in tax and are eligible for a $200 credit, do you get $100 back or is it just called even.
There is a big difference between a credit and a deduction, but often both are referred to as "tax breaks" in the lazy media.
A distinction that... doesn't matter to me. Its all some form of manipulation.
The distinction is that credits are even worser. A deduction still leaves the taxpayer paying most of the cost of that which is deducted. Ex: mortgage interest. It's deductible, but no one is incented to pay extra interest because no one will pay $1 just to save 30-40 cents (including state/local income taxes). Tax credits will often cause people to do insanely stupid things, like spend $300,000 to put solar panels on top of an auto body shop in Minneapolis. http://www.swjournal.com/index.....category=0
(fantastic picture of Al Franken)
Actually, people are that stupid, but that is another story.
People who cant do math argue that you should always have a mortgage in order to get the tax break.
Which is just insanity.
There is a big difference between a credit and a deduction, but often both are referred to as "tax breaks" in the lazy media.
Generally, tax deductions are legitimate costs of doing business. You don't want to pay tax on money that you earned that you spent on supplies. If you earn $100 but had to spend $20 on supplies, you only pay tax on $80. If you owe $5 in tax on the $80, but received a tax credit for $2, you only have to pay $3 in taxes.
This is why corporate taxes should be eliminated and shifted to individual income taxes. Businesses survive on their net margins so taxing gross income on them would never make sense. But getting in to gross vs. net income for an individual opens the door to call any personal consumption a "business expense". The gross income an individual earns is already the net income left over from a business's expenses.
Agreed. Besides, business taxes are ultimately passed on to the consumer.
The gross income an individual earns is already the net income left over from a business's expenses.
That's just idiotic.
If you work for GM, your personal gross income may have another source.
Ive made the argument that all corporations should be pass thru entities. Make C corps like S corps.
In the process, you eliminate the corporate income tax, which simplifies things...somewhat.
I see some negatives to this, but I think overall it would be good.
I've made the same argument. You can tax dividends and capital gains (indexed to inflation) as normal income to make it revenue neutral.
As long as the ownership limitations of S Corps were abolished, we'd be good.
Just get rid of all the stupid legal distinctions of different kinds of corporate organization and tax purely the net income that owners and investors earn from the business's profits, and of course tax the payroll income that employees earn.
A tax break is different from a subsidy. In the former, you pay fewer taxes. In the latter, you get free money (although the definition is a bit fluid).
A deduction is different from a credit. In the former you lower taxable income and in the latter you lower taxes.
Even then it can be tricky. Is the EITC a tax break or a credit? Its got credit in the name, and you get free money relative to your income tax, so seems like a credit right?
However, in most (all?) cases, the amount you receive would be less than the amount paid in FICA taxes. And that is a different fine splitting of hairs right there.
So, on net, its still just a tax break relative to federal taxes.
Right, it's refundable so it can go negative (i.e. you receive money instead of paying taxes).
If the corporate income tax was where it should be - 0% - then we wouldn't have to worry about subsidy via tax breaks.
S-corps and REITs (Real Estate Investment Trusts) are "pass-throughs" and pay no corporate tax. C-corps are taxed at 35%, IIRC.
Eh. If anything is a legitimate target for taxation it's a corporation.
Or, what if we, were, to, like, tax the money that CAPITALISTS make from corporashuns!
Juice|2.8.12 @ 7:43PM|#
"Eh. If anything is a legitimate target for taxation it's a corporation."
You're an ignoramus. That's all.
The end user is the one who pays the tax. Anybody else is just a tax collector.
"tax credits an ideologue doesn't like are "subsidies" and ones that the same ideologue does like are mere "tax benefits.""
I don't play that shit. While less taxes are a good thing, there is a thin membrane between tax breaks and subsidies. The only way to sort this out is flat taxes (or no taxes).
I thought paying less taxes was always good, no matter how unfair or unproductive the tax break?
There's no problem in principle, of course, with tax incentives for clean energy. Particularly when they have to compete with industries that are being allowed to harm the environment for free.
Yeah somebody, somewhere might be getting a handout. Maybe there are more important concerns, like whether the environment is being destroyed? Besides, whenever that handout comes in the form of cash giveaways to billionaires, it's a sacred eternal right. And when it comes in the form of subsidies to your pet industries, you mostly stick your fingers in your ears and go lalala.
Nah, you're right. Things like fairness, consistency, efficiency, simplicity, and balanced budgets mean nothing to cold and logical libertarians. Just low, LOW TAXES!
OK Tony, thanks for making the same point that Ronald Bailey made in his last paragraph but doing it with three times as much text.
Everything is an externality, dammit! The science is settled.
Tony|2.8.12 @ 7:25PM|#
"I thought paying less taxes was always good, no matter how unfair or unproductive the tax break"
Yes, shithead.
.
There ? fixed it.
Paying less taxes is good. However, targeted tax credits mean that someone else has to pay more in taxes to make up for the shortfall. So, if government would lower taxes and lower spending accordingly, it would fit into the "good" box that your simple mind can't seem to get beyond. The current system, despite *someone* paying lower taxes, has downsides, which are borne by *other people* having to pay *more* in taxes. So, this is just another in the long line of "Gotcha's" that are really just pathetic strawmen pulled out of Tony's ass.
What exactly are those Big Oil tax breaks? Every time I've looked at an oil company's financials, they are paying incredibly high taxes.
But they're not paying *all* the taxes, so it's not enough.
Charlie Stross considers the internet, social networking/media, and "free time" in the universe of DS9/TNG.
Discussion:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3566973
Stross's original blog post:
http://www.antipope.org/charli.....osays.html
Neat. Wish I had the time to read the whole thing. Maybe this weekend.
Interesting that there was no mention of Net-girls as portrayed in DS9.
Actually, that's Charlie's guest blogger, but a good post nonetheless.
Ronald, It's Big Government v. Small Oil.
Groupon's inevitable collapse begins.
May the rest of the vapor-biz outfits follow.
I still can't believe they turned down google's offer.
Their books didnt match what they were saying and google refused to agree to a large break-up fee.
The google offer was never gonna happen once the books were cracked.
Is a tax credit the same as a tax break? I'm pretty sure they're completely different.
Give me a break, uh, some credit.
I am doing a tax equity deal now with a wind company where we are financing them by essentially buying their tax credits (which renewables generally can't use because they are not profitable in the short term, if ever) and using them to reduce our tax liability. I wonder how much people would object if they understood that most of these tax credits go to pay off large financial institutions' tax burdens.
They'd blame the large financial institutions instead of the stupid tax credits. Where can I buy these credits? I've been making a killing selling methane offsets. People pay me money and send them a certificate that 3 old guys in New Guinea promise not to fart.
Most people would be amazed that there is a secondary market trading tax forgiveness. But then most people are amazed that T-day turkeys turn into dope a block or so after the guy leaves Glide Church with a turkey. Most people just don't understand that if it can be traded, it's currency.
If they ever figured it out, they'd hang you by the thumbs as some sort of "speculator".
Back during the Master Settlement Agreement, to make things fair for farmers the government paid them some of the money they collected. Farmers wanted a lump sum and went to banks to securitize it, and given that there was no market aside from some of the larger Southeastern banks (think First Union->Wachovia->Wells Fargo or NationsBank->Bank of America). Banks collected huge liquidity premia and it's (a small) part of what helped establish Charlotte for banking.
Most people who support these subsidies would rather just not know where they went.
When did PM links die?
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