The Gospel According to Obama
Barack Obama says faith drives much of his domestic agenda-and no one even blinks.
George W. Bush had one small office devoted to faith-based initiatives, and was savaged for it. Barack Obama, on the other hand, says faith drives much of his domestic agenda—and no one even blinks.
We are in "the fourth year of the ministry of George W. Bush," cracked novelist Philip Roth in 2004. By then, several million gallons of ink already had been spilled warning that Bush's "faith-based presidency" was "nudging the church-state line" (The New York Times) and was "turning the U.S. into a religious state" (Village Voice) and was "arrogant" and "troubling" (St. Petersburg Times) and was "pandering to Christian zealots" (Salon) and "imposing its values on the rest of us" (too many to name).
Obama has been just as overtly religious as Bush—"We worship an awesome God in the blue states," he said in his 2004 keynoter at the Democratic National Convention—and even more aggressive about injecting faith into politics. In 2006, he praised a religious "Covenant for a New America." In a 2008 speech in Ohio, he said religious faith could be "the foundation of a new project of American renewal" and insisted that "secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square." He has kept Bush's office of faith-based initiatives. In fact, "Obama's faith-based office has given religious figures a bigger role in influencing White House decisions," reported USNews in 2009.
At the National Prayer Breakfast last Thursday, the president began by noting that he prays every morning, and then devoted the rest of his speech to explaining the manifold ways in which his faith guides his policies. "I am my brother's keeper and I am my sister's keeper," he said. That somnolent silence you hear is the guardians of church-state separation taking a nap.
No big surprise. For many liberals, it is perfectly fine—desirable, in fact—for religious people to impose their values on the rest of us, so long as those values produce policies of which liberals approve: higher taxes, more stringent regulation, more government spending. On Thursday, for instance, Obama said there is a "biblical call to care for the least of these – for the poor; for those at the margins of our society," which justifies not just voluntary private charity but enforced public charity.
Yet woe betide any believers whose values stray from the leftist catechism. Who says so? The Obama administration, for starters. It has decreed that Catholic institutions such as hospitals and universities must provide birth control through their employee health plans, even though Catholic doctrine considers birth control a violation of the faith. The administration claimed to provide a conscience exception by allowing a narrow exception for churches. This is like ordering Jewish schools to buy pork for their cafeterias and then claiming to respect Judaism because synagogues are exempt.
The New York Times, of course, was pleased as punch, though it denounced Mitt Romney for criticizing the mandate and promising to defend the Catholic Church's "religious liberty"—a termThe Times put in quotes, to signify its disdain for the concept. This all comes shortly after the Supreme Court ruled, 9-0, that religious institutions have a right to abide by their religious beliefs (a decision The Times also criticized).
Or take the temper tantrum that erupted last week when the Susan G. Komen Foundation for the Cure, a women's-health organization, decided—briefly—to stop giving its own money to Planned Parenthood. Let's suppose Komen's 27.3 million critics were correct in thinking the move was motivated by anti-abortion sentiments, which are essentially religious sentiments. So? Isn't Obama right to say secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door?
Some claimed the issue was women's health. Not so. The Komen foundation would not have shoved the money formerly earmarked for Planned Parenthood under a mattress. It would have spent the money on women's-health initiatives elsewhere. Leftists were not upset because Komen's decision shrank the pool of funding for cancer screenings and so forth; it would not have. They were fuming because Komen no longer wanted to tithe one of liberalism's most sacred institutions. So apoplexy ensued, and Komen climbed down.
The lesson from all of this? Liberals should be able to impose their faith-based values on the rest of us, but any heretics who deviate from liberal dogma may not even observe their faith-based values by themselves. It's right there in the Apocrypha—you can look it up.
A. Barton Hinkle is a columnist at the Richmond Times-Dispatch, where this article originally appeared.
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It's okay, because he doesn't mean it! He's too smart to really believe that stuff!
I remember Bill Maher saying/hoping this very same thing on The Daily Show during the leadup to the 2008 election.
Toward the end of this: http://www.thedailyshow.com/wa.....aher-pt--2
Let me know when Gawd tells him to invade Iraq or send $15 billion to Africa for AIDS prevention.
Pandering to the faithful is a time worn campaign tactic.
Naw. Gawd just told him to soak the rich and fuck the health care system up even more.
God told him to invade Libya, Yemen, and Iran.
That's different! Anyways, it's only natural that Barry stays in touch with His Dad!
He didn't listen then.
This is all ironic because the Obama is supposed to be in hot water with the Gawd Squad on contraception issues with health care insurance.
Apparently Obama's Gawd is quite a bit hipper than the Fundie Gawd.
By Gawd, of course, we mean Satan. All leftists worship Satan.
This is all ironic because the Obama is supposed to be in hot water with the Gawd Squad
If you mean Team Red, then no surprise there. They also think Obama hates Israel, shut down Gitmo on day 1, and wants a constitutional amendment to force citizens to house and quarter illegal aliens.
If you mean Bill Donahue, then no surprise there. He's offended all of the time.
If you mean people concerned with an overreaching federal government, then that doesn't have anything to do with the "Gawd Squad".
house and quarter
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This is obviously a virus from Tony's infected computer. Thanks a pile, Tony.
The Religious Left has a long history in the US, long predating the emergence of Jerry Falwell and his cohorts in the 1970s. I mention this so as to preempt the argument that leftist religious activism is merely some kind of defense against the Religious Right.
The left pretty much own all of the mainline Protestant Churches. That is where the "evangelical movement" came from. It came from people leaving the older Protestant denominations because they had become so liberal in the 1960s.
Indeed, but to many, it's a matter of stealing those dumb "values voters" back from the repubs by using religious rhetoric. "You people want religion, do you? Well, your dumb religion supports our policies, didn't you know? We're in favor of the Golden Rule and loving our neighbor, unlike the anti-Golden-Rule and neighbor-hating Republicans! Now will you morons vote for us already?"
That is good political pandering. The GOP has the market on the wrathful angry Gawd of the OT. Any marketing grad student would tell the opposition to sidle up to the nice Gawd of the Beatitudes.
Uhh, the history is a bit off. The Evangelical movement started in the early 19th century. It used to be closely aligned with Progressivism (Prohibition was an Evangelical goal), but it was liberalism that left the evangelical consensus in the twentieth century, not the evangelical movement arising in response to 1960s liberalism. (However, the 1960s did push the evangelical camp into the arms of the GOP.)
???
Suggest you look at William Jennings Bryan's election platform. Pure populist anti-capitalism. There was some Socon stuff thrown in, but "you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold" wouldn't have been out of place at a OWS demo.
Not sure how what you wrote contradicts what I wrote. Bryan was a Progressive and a prominent proponent of moving the Democrats in a more progressive direction. The Evangelical movement was influential in the Democrat party until the 1960s when former Evangelical democrats in the south started shifting allegiance to the Republican party over social issues.
No one blinks because no one believes him. The sad thing is that no one bats an eye at such an obvious lie.
I don't know that it is an obvious lie. What makes you think it has to be? I can totally see Obama being a devout Christian and thinking that faith justifies the government running everything.
That's possible. The man may be a devout Christian. I don't know what's in his heart. But I've always thought that he's more likely to worship at the Church of Obama.
Oh he definitely worships there. But I think it is possible that he allows Jesus an audience now and then.
I don't think he is a good Christian. But I wouldn't be surprised if the thinks of himself as one.
I wouldn't be surprised if he thought of himself as the best Christian.
Let me be clear: I put the "Christ" in "Christian".
WWBHOD
I don't know, but it's going to be expensive. Probably involves the rejection of a false choice or two.
Why would he stop marketing himself and start telling the truth over religion?
never underestimate people's ability to rationalize. Thinking he is doing God's work and has a special understanding of what God wants fits right into his narcissism.
God created me.
I am working.
Therefore, I am doing God's work.
Close. The logic goes:
God begot me.
I am working.
Therefore I am doing God's work.
Nothing is easier for an egotist than to be a "Christ-ian" when he's convinced he is Christ.
No one blinks because not one has faith in this political strategic move. Whereas, Bush meant it!
Bush's faith was scary and Obama's political theatre
All faith, at it's base, is theater. It's a lie to keep people from being depressed.
Bush was an audience member who believed the magician's illusions; that's too susceptible for me
And there is nothing disturbing about having a President who is so cynical that he will fake the most fundamental moral beliefs. Nothing scary about that at all.
As I said below, either Obama really is a Christian or he is cynical to the point of being evil.
John, I find it comforting that O fakes it; he's a hooker who performs for a service, and no one is under any chimera.
The other is a leader who may get person-to-person phone calls from baby jesus. I chose the known, safer, and lesser evil
I think that Obama is a Christian, but it's just a personal affectation he picked up in his younger years, like his choice of tie knot. He's the kind of mainline Protestant Christian who isn't faking his beliefs because they're not consequential enough to bother faking.
So, between the liar and the retard you choose the liar.
interesting.
A man liar is predictable
John, I find it comforting that Obama Full stop.
Finding comfort in anything Obama does is a form of denial. He needs to go back to poorly instructing college students on the constitution, and you need to stop voting and start making babies.
"either Obama really is a Christian or he is cynical to the point of being evil."
False dichotomy there. Is there not also the possibility (and statistical probability) that he's a casual believer who amplifies his piety on the public stage?
This probably describes the majority of Americans.
This is the truth. I caught a lot of flack a couple years ago for saying Obama was probably an atheist who used religious trappings to get votes. Much in the same way the great tyrant Lincoln did.
Lincoln was a total fake Christian. The real Christians were those slave owners who owned those people in order to save their souls.
"The real Christians were those slave owners who owned those people in order to save their souls."
Well, and those abolitionists...
WTF is a real Christian?
We had a thread the other day where John declared who was and wasn't, ask him.
a real christian is a jew during the roman occuapation who joined a peace cult.
I think peace towards the Romans is a dangerous idea.
a real christian is a jew during the roman occuapation who joined a peace cult.
That's probably as close to the truth as we can get. They would be appalled at the Hal Lindsy Left Behind death cult it has since devolved.
Hal Lindsey and "Left Behind"?
Hal Lindesy = "Late, Great Planet Earth."
"Left Behind" = Tim LaHaye
End of Days Fiction PWNED!
I want to know how many people who are raised in non-religious households, go to Ivy League undergraduate universities and law schools, spend much of their adult life in academia, and pal around with leftist terrorists self-identify as Christians. Are there three of these people alive?
This is a great post, a conservative hat trick (non-religious, elite Ivy Leaguers, and "pal around with terrorists").
If you included Secret Muslim you really would have had it, but why let the perfect be the enemy of the good!
I want to know how many people who are raised in non-religious households, go to Ivy League undergraduate universities and law schools, spend much of their adult life in academia, and pal around with leftist terrorists self-identify as Christianswhile being a secret muslim. Are there three of these people alive?
Better?
This is a great post, a conservative hat trick (non-religious, elite Ivy Leaguers, and "pal around with terrorists").
All of those things are objectively true facts. Obama was raised primarily by his non religious grand parents, he did go to Ivy League schools, and he was pretty close associates with Bill Ayers. Ayers hosted Obama's first fund raising event, and helped Obama get on the Annenberg Challenge Board.
"Ayers hosted Obama's first fund raising event, and helped Obama get on the Annenberg Challenge Board."
Of course that = paling around with!
Yes it does. People I who are not my pales don't get me board positions at big foundations or host fund raisers for me at their house.
Is there anything, no matter how obvious, you won't deny about this guy?
"People I who are not my pales"
WTF?
Apart from the grammatical trainwreck, do you really want to argue that it is "obvious" that if a person hosts a fundraiser for a pol that person and the pol are "pals?"
It seems to me "obvious" that there is an equally likely explanation for why a leftist prof might promote an up and coming black politician. That's kind of what lefty profs can be expected to do. No deep friendship need be surmised to explain that.
"I love him, you monsters! Do you hear me? I LOVE HIM!"
You make a good point here.
That's how John and I refer to our friends. We're not black, so we can't say "sup muh niggaz?" We are white, so we have to say "Good afternoon, my pales."
And it's Pete for the win.
If you have a problem with me characterizing Obama's upbringing as "non-religious," Obama's education as "Ivy League," or Bill Ayers as a "terrorist," please refudiate.
Oh man, and "refudiate"! March on warrior, march on!
It's like you have some kind of Jr. Hannity Thesarus or something.
Do you enjoy freedom fries too?
Still waiting for your refudification of my descriptions of Obama's religious upbringing, academic pedigree, and personal associations.
Sigh, do you not see that your post is not so yummy because of the factual nature of it, but of your Hannity Jr. buzz words?
Sigh, do you not see that your post is not so yummy because of its whining, but because you were suckered in by obvious bait?
Ahhhhh, now I see it. You really don't try to refute what people say (at least in the case of John and Pete) you just pick at their bad spelling and grammar so you don't have to defend your positions. Fucking Brilliant!
Well, I wouldn't say non-religious; Communism is religious in a fashion, as is New Age mush. Setting yourself up as a political Messiah is pretty religious too. "Non-Christian" would be closer to the truth; maybe even "non-Muslim" too: self-worshipers don't put up with other religions' Messiahs, and Islam does have that Mahdi character.
Otherwise, the rest is correct.
If you want to get in good with certain circles of power, you have to join the same clubs. It could be Yale Club, or the Masonic Lodge, or St. Lyndon's Episcopal. He'd want to keep his options open in case they became useful.
As I wrote below, that's exactly why Bo picked Rev Wrights church.
MNG's assertion that he just went o the church as a matter of habit is utter bullshit.
It was a deliberate choice designed to correct for his defficient blackness.
So the entire left of Chicago pals around with terrorist? That not only isn't a surprise, but does not exonerate Obama either.
shrike and R C Dean beat me to the punch.
shrike and RCdean beat me to the punch.
*blink*
Luke 18:9-14
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people?robbers, evildoers, adulterers?or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 18:9-14&version=NIV
See? See how those domestic extremists are a danger to IRS agents?!
Obama is a muslim
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip
Garry Trudeau is funny and relevant.
Didn't you get my call? I need that comment back.
No one blinks because the people who complain about religion (mostly) are TEAM BLUE, and Obama's on their TEAM. So it's OK.
This is basic partisan bullshit; why Hinkle felt a need to write an article on it is beyond me.
Maybe because writing is how he makes a living?
Revealing the continued hypocrisy of partisan politics is always a worth-while endeavor.
Anybody remember this from the 2008 campaign?
It's Glenn "Thomas Ellers" Greenwald, but it's tremendous TEAM BLUE on TEAM BLUE action, so stick with it it.
"The center page of the brochure proclaims ? in the largest letters on the page ? that Obama is a "COMMITTED CHRISTIAN," and includes three pictures of Obama, all of which show him praying or preaching in a Church, and also includes a fourth picture: of the interior of a Church with a large cross lurking in the background. The page also says that Obama is "guided by his Christian faith" and quotes Obama saying: "We do what we do because God is with us."
He is either a genuine Christian or cynical to the point of it being downright evil.
I'm more interested in the reactions that Greenwald reported from the leftist idiots at Salon. The only way this brochure could be more ostentatiously Christian is if Obama posed in Papal regalia or was Photoshopped into medieval art as John the Baptist. And even then the commenters don't believe that Obama means it. He's just pushing back against the Muslim rumors, you see, so it's okay.
What if it were a photoshop of Salome with Obama's head on a silver platter?
This works because the Right helps facilitate it with their own memes. I mean, Obama can't be a religious Jesus-freak because he's so busy with the war on Christians and being a secret Muslim!
Is there such a word "meme" or is "rightwing meme" one term? Just wondering because in MNG world there are only rightwing memes, never just memes and certainly never any leftwing memes.
Sure there are left wing memes. But mostly here I see the other kind.
My point here is that partly why people don't get upset about Obama's religious talk is that the right is busy working 24/7 telling everyone he is anti-Christian and a secret Muslim. So how can he be a Christian fanatic?
But the left doesn't believe any of that right? And the Left professes to care about keeping religion out of politics, right? So why should the ravings of talk radio cause the Left to abandon its commitment to keeping religion out of politics?
The right is good at getting their memes into the public conscience, even among the Left.
I'm not sure the Left opposes Christians in public office, though they do react to ones that seem to push certain policies. They didn't freak over Carter for example.
The right is good at getting their memes into the public conscience, even among the Left.
So the right brainwashes the left into being hypocrites about Obama's religion? Got it.
Yes John, that is EXACTLY what I said!
You're hilarious!
"The right is good at getting their memes into the public conscience, even among the Left."
What does getting their "memes" into the pubic conscience mean if not somehow taking away the Left's ability to think clearly about the issue?
"What does getting their "memes" into the pubic conscience mean if not somehow taking away the Left's ability to think clearly about the issue?"
Never heard about a "False dilemma" fallacy, eh John?
But more important, I did have a bit more to my post, you know the part where I directly address your point. That part you ignored.
You know, this part:
"I'm not sure the Left opposes Christians in public office, though they do react to ones that seem to push certain policies. They didn't freak over Carter for example."
Your use of Carter, a Democrat, actually reinforces John's assertion that the Left wears blinders about religion in politics when it's their guy in the office.
So what else have our mind beams gotten leftists to do lately, MNG?
This is what they call "compounding the error!"
I'm not sure how he can both (a) be a committed Christian and (b) be completely unaware of what his pastor was preaching to him for, what was it, 20 years?
So, which is the lie? The bit about being a committed Christian, or the bit about having no idea Rev. Wright was a hateful racist?
Lot's of people go to a church and shake their heads at what the pastor says sometimes. It's common.
How many of those people lift the titles of their second autobiographies from one of their pastor's sermons?
Twenty fucking years MNG. Come on. I don't go hang out with a person I vehemently disagree with again after twenty hours of hanging out with them.
Do you go to church much?
I was raised in an evangelical church. People don't shop church the way you think. My pastor said things that my father didn't like all the time. He didn't leave that church until decades later when he moved away from it. That's common.
Do you go to church much?
Admittedly, I'm an atheist.
I guess the real problem is that he attended church, and not the specific pastor. I'll concede that.
I'm pretty sure that BO shopped the hell out of churches before he settled on the Rev Wright's church.
After being beaten in a Chicago election because he wasn't "black enough" he needed to darken up and establish his bona fides. A good part of this included going to the blackest church he could find.
racist!!11one
He moved to Chicago of his own volition. He shopped for a church once he got there, again as a matter of a choice he made, not of a tradition he felt compelled to honor.
Why defend the man? Are you not worthy of better?
And yet, here you are...
Well, I can turn the people here off at a moment's notice.
Real life isn't quite as ... what's the word... ah fuck it.
MNG, its not that he said he disagreed with Rev. Wright all those years.
Its that he said he had no idea.
Now, I know plenty of religious people who have disagreements with their pastors. But I don't know any religious people who have no fucking idea what their pastor says from the pulpit.
Its that he said he had no idea.
Despite Shrikes (as well as the MSMs) pronouncements that Obama is just about the smartest and sexiest man ever... he had a reputation as not being the sharpest tool in the shed. Had a bit of Bushs Syndrome....perhaps a bit incurious. Wink wink nudge nudge.
B is the lie. I take him at his word. I think he is a Christian. It is an Occam's razor issue. Which is more likely, that Obama is some evil genius who constructed this totally fake religious edifice for political purposes or that he actually believes what he says? The latter is the simpler explanation and thus the far more likely one.
And he absolutely knew what Wright was saying and either agreed with him or found the views to not be particularly objectionable.
My dad was a union man who tended to vote Democrat. He listened to a GOP leaning preacher my entire childhood. He went to the church his friends went to.
That's common. They've done studies where they asked people what the beleifs of the church they attend are and many couldn't say. People choose churches for many reasons, often for social ones (like they grew up going to it or many of their friends go to it).
But Wright wasn't just any preacher. He believes some pretty crazy shit. It is the kind of thing that would be a deal breaker for a lot of people.
If the preacher at your father's parish started talking about how white people were superior to all black people, I doubt your father would have stayed.
Most preaches say crazy shit now and then. We don't know how regular Wright's crazy shit was.
Judging from Wright's behavior since, it was very regular. And it doesn't matter. So what if he said it once a year. Would you stay in a church where even once a year the preacher went off on a white supremacist rant? I wouldn't. And I bet you wouldn't either.
"So what if he said it once a year."
And Obama didn't come on the Sunday's he did?
"And Obama didn't come on the Sunday's he did?"
So for 20 years Obama never happened to be there when Wright said crazy stuff? Yeah that is real likely.
Just admit the obvious, Obama went to the church and knew full well what Wright believed. That doesn't mean Obama believed it. But it does mean Obama didn't find those beliefs objectionable enough to leave the church. That is just what happened.
"Just admit the obvious, Obama went to the church and knew full well what Wright believed."
You have some evidence that Obama attended on Sundays he said this? Nope.
But don't let that stand in the way of building a crazy rant on it.
It's really common for a person to attend church "infrequently." If he said this kind of thing once a year then, yeah, it's a pretty good chance someone who did so missed it altogether.
"It's really common for a person to attend church "infrequently."
True, but Obama didn't attend church infrequently. He attended regularly for almost 20 years. So stop lying.
Obama went to Wright's Church because that was where he had to go to establish himself as authentic with the CHicagoe Community- and why he dropped it just as fast when it was time to move up to the Presidency. Spirituality never came into the equation.
I have evidence that Obama attended the church for 20 years and talked about Wright being a father figure in his book. Obama also borrowed the title of one of his books from one Wright's sermons. Wright was an important part of OBama's life for nearly two decades. It simply defies credulity that Obama had no idea about Wrights views on black liberation theology. Say what you want about Wright, he is no fake and does nothing to hide his views.
Just stop it MNG. You making yourself look foolish.
I'm not sure why you have to write so much to say "no, I have no evidence he was present at any such sermon."
Your ability to assume and conjecture is always impressive. You don't know how frequently Wright talked such stuff in sermons and you don't know how frequently Obama attended. Those would be pretty big variable one might think is assessing whether he had been exposed to that stuff. But not for you John. He knew the guy and the guy had these beliefs, so he must have known it and condoned it.
You'd a made a great aide to Joseph McCarthy.
"You don't know how frequently Wright talked such stuff in sermons and you don't know how frequently Obama attended."
Obama attended the church enough that he called Wright a father figure and named his book after one of his sermons. You don't do that by going once or twice a year.
And further, Wright has made no secret of his adherence to black liberation theology. You couldn't possibly know Wright and consider him a father figure and not know that he was such an adherent.
Just stop it.
"I'm not sure why you have to write so much to say "no, I have no evidence he was present at any such sermon."
reply to this "
You are such a mendacious prick. Do you really think the people reading this are that fucking stupid? I just gave you a ton of evidence that showed that Obama attended Wright's church regularly for two decades, was familiar with Wright and respected him so much he called him a father figure. You deny none of that.
But you expect us to believe that Obama had no idea that Wright was a racist because it is just possible that Wright said these things on the Sundays that Obama wasn't there.
That is just you pretending everyone on this board is stupid and will believe anything you say no matter how little sense it makes. Just stop it already.
Another Saturday, another date
She would be ready but she's always make them wait
In the hallway, in anticipation
He didn't know the night would end up in frustration"
Is there any evidence that he was a regular attendee?
Wright officiated at his wedding and baptized his kids.
How often do you really have to do that? There's a big difference between leading a Sunday School class and showing up twice a year and spending the sermon on your Blackberry. I don't find it that implausible that he "attended" for 20 years without having a clue what Wright said.
That doesn't reflect well on him, of course.
Then we're back to the other branch of the dilemma. If he was a Christmas/Easter attendee, then in what sense was he a committed Christian?
And what kind of occasional attendee cites his pastor as a father figure, etc.?
Robbers,
But would someone who only attended once in a while call the pastor a "father figure" and name his book after one of his sermons?
It seems pretty unlikely that Obama would do that and only attend church twice a year.
He's a politician who thinks it's going to give him good publicity.
My working theory is that he was there for the publicity/connections, and was so completely disinterested in the actual teachings of the church that he missed all the evidence that Wright was a crazy person.
Obama at least knows how to manage superficial appearance. If he had realized that Wright was spouting racist insanity, he wouldn't have said he went to the church--even if he were to agree with every last word of it.
My wife and I attend a Catholic mass twice a year (being nice to my mother-in-law). We've been doing this since 2003. I couldn't tell you the name of the priest, or what he does. Hell, we're not even Catholic. I'm an atheist. I wouldn't call the priest a father figure figure, or quote his sermons.
BO calling Rev. Wright a father figure, and using quotes sure does sound like he goes to church more than twice a year.
The main difference is that you aren't a sociopath desperate to appeal to voters. As Kreel Sarloo points out, he had electoral reasons for faking it.
RE: Occam's razor...
If I ever decide to run for public office as a mainstream Elephant or Donkey, my first step will be to join a church.
If played correctly in contemporary American politics, the religious card is all win.
It seems to me that what was weird was the freaking out over Bush's religion, not the not freaking out over Obama's, or the Clintons' or anyone else's. Being publicly religious is almost as big a requirement as being married in US politics, so the pols perform both of these whether their heart's in it or not. Fucking stupid, but true.
SO Canadians dig on atheistic polygamists?
Nah, but it is generally considered poor form to make splashy declarations of faith. Religion tends to be a more private affair in the frozen tundra. There was a controversial Canadian Alliance (this was the name of the Conservative Party for a while) pol who'd make goofy statements like he thought God literally created the world in 6 days and that this happened 6,000 years ago. Much side-eye ensued.
Interesting, what ploys do Canadian Pols use to schmooze and pander to the ignorant masses?
Tim Hortons gift cards.
Visits to the local hockey rink
Back bacon for everyone!
While what yoyu say is true it's worth remembering that T C Douglas was a bible thumping Baptist preacher and much of his motivation for being a socialist was the whole "we are our brother's keeper' line. Many of the founding members of the CCF were ministers, in fact.
I'm pretty sure that old Tommy would be aghast at the goings on in modern Canadian society. People have short memories and don't seem to realize that all this tolerance of gays and unwed mothers etc is of fairly recent vintage.
When I said, 'am I my brother's keeper?', it meant 'stupid question, you old demonic fuck!.'
Would that have been Stockwell Day?
I remember back in the day when Radio Canada International still relayed CBC programs via shortwave that the folks at one of the morning programs had a running joke about a campaign to rename Stockwell Day "Doris Day". I sent them a letter telling them they should change the name of the PM from Jean Chr?tien to Jean Cr?tin. I don't think my letter ever was read on the air.
Canadians' reglion is America-bashing.
I thought that was their hobby.
Do you think everyone was freaking out solely about Bush being publicly religious, or about that in conjunction with some of his policies?
Well even you have to admit that thanks to Bush's foreign policy an awful lot of people got to meet God...
An awesome God!
And which of those Bush policies has Obama discontinued?
Far more important than even marriage. There has been on one avowed atheist in Congress, but there are currently six homosexuals.
In a 2011 Gallup poll, 49% of respondents said they wouldn't vote for an atheist no matter what political beliefs they held.
I just saw one of those weird "I'm A Mormon" bus ads this morning, where they show smiley racially diverse people for some reason. Maybe atheism needs its own PR campaign.
IT wouldn't hurt. Right now the only time anyone hears anything about atheism it usually involves some asshole trying to make sure no one sings Christmas carols in school. Being the local gadfly is not really a good way of making friends and influencing people.
"Atheism: We don't care when you buy beer on Sunday."
I think you are confusing atheism with Libertarianism.
Atheism, or : Get that fucking Christmas Tree off the lawn!
Aggressive atheists are as annoying as aggressive theists, sure. What about people who just don't give a fuck about religion (but don't want to mess with anyone who does)? Maybe the binary should be religion-messers-with vs. religion-non-messers-with.
Penn Jillette had a great argument for this, but I'll be damned if I can remember it. Of course, he's just a comedian/performance artist.
That there are some authoritarians in Christianity doesn't seem to invalidate it as a whole, why does the existence of authoritarians in atheism not generate the same understanding?
And, I will add, authoritarian atheists are missing the whole point from my perspective.
Sure SF. But Christians are smart enough to try to put their best foot forward. Atheists should do the same.
Is Santorum the best foot you got? Or is there actually nothing you can do about the assholes who are component of every group ever?
Santorum is a politician. He is not trying to get anyone to join a church.
Yeah, all politicians are assholes. It is a requirement for the job.
John, I think it depends on what circles you run in. Plenty of people have a general distaste for Christianity as a whole. Their degree of obnoxiousness about it (and other things) varies, of course. But it is not like Christianity is universally well thought of. A lot of both the atheist-hating Christians and the Christian-hating atheists are just idiot partisans using it as a proxy war which is why I humbly suggest a new alliance of all non-fuck-givers.
But he is a public Christian. Can I judge all Christians on the behavior of Santorum? Because that's what you are doing to atheists, the vast majority of whom couldn't give a hoot about Christmas trees or caroling.
I know dozens of out-atheists. Exactly one of them goes to atheist church, where most of the "militant" atheists gather.
Fair enough SF. And if you told me that Christians would be better off without Santorum, I would probably agree. But that doesn't mean Atheists wouldn't be better off without the assholes who cruise town squaurs looking for nativity scenes.
I'll throw out a suggestion, gleaned from something my crazy religion-hopping mother once said. It was important to her to belong to a community of like-minded people to go hang out with on Sundays. I'll posit some atheists are similar. They go to atheist church (?) becuase they need the solidarity.
I'll also posit most of us here are borderline anti-social and don't need a whole lot of validation or community hand-holding.
I'll also posit most of us here are borderline anti-social and don't need a whole lot of validation or community hand-holding.
You poor child. Obviously, someone should have stepped in when you were young so that you would be social now, for the good of society.
This just in: Christianity responsible for the decline of liberty. Yet again. News at 6.
Wait, replace Christianity with Religion and you have a perfectly valid statement. Religion: enslaving the world for thousands of years and still going strong!
Of course, you atheists just know that Marx, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and all the other Communists were committed Christians. As for John Locke, George Washington, Ben Franklin, and all the rest of our Founding Fathers, they must all have been hardened atheists to have set so many free.
That's why the Declaration of Independence reads: "We hold these truths to be scientific facts: that all men are equally evolved through a directionless process over billions of years from primordial soup; that nature in its utter disregard for rotting sacks of amino acid has endowed them with certain rights inalienable for so long as they have the might to defend them..."
Honestly, what Bizarro Universe in that Multiple Worlds Hypothesis of yours do you internet atheists inhabit, and if it's such a libertarian paradise, why didn't you stay there?
South, do you really believe that the Founders would be hanging out at your local Mega-Church? You might want to read what they had to say about the topic. Here's a bump-start for ya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
For starters, there are no mega-churches around where I live. How nice of you to reveal your ignorant stereotyping of me so early. For another thing, I'm well aware the Founding Fathers had considerable variance and diversity of doctrine; Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, to name two, were Deists (although Ben hedged his bets on his deathbed and converted to Anglicanism). George Washington also had some weird Freemason stuff in his background.
The point is that atheism has contributed absolutely nothing to liberty, and everything to tyranny and totalitarianism. Atheism is a parasite in need of a host, having never successfully given rise to even one civilization of its own, and always expiring along with all the civilizations it corrupted and destroyed. (In post-Soviet Russia, for example, New Age superstitions and belief in various supernatural phenomena have made a huge comeback in lieu of the perceived collapse of the godless commies' "scientific" approach.)
As for Wikipedia, you should know better than even to try to cite that propaganda site with all its left-wing gatekeepers and cherry-picked data as any kind of reliable source. My sources are the actual works of John Locke and our Founding Fathers, not what some idiots on the internet had to say about them. Atheism has no equivalent whatsoever to any of these founders and their foundations, because atheism is inherently opposed to all liberty and freedom of conscience. People who would try to be both atheists and libertarians are deluding themselves; in the absence of the supernatural, all humans are mere programmable machines that must inevitably fall under the control of whichever machine succeeds in reprogramming all the other machines according to its own design first.
Religion: enslaving the world for thousands of years and still going strong!
William Wilberforce was a Christian. He believed in the equality of men and was one of the very first in a position of power to oppose human slavery. Christianity and Christians certainly deserve there share of blame for being anti-Liberty. They also deserve credit where it is due.
Yeah, but did he oppose slavery because it was an invasion of their right to self-ownership, or because he thought the slave-owners were being mean to their slaves? My guess is it was the latter, which is just another form of paternalistic garbage.
Self-ownership is irrelevant. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Frankly, as a fairly left wing secularist, I do dislike about Obama's religiosity, but just as we're still reeling a little from Obama's move to the right on civil liberties issues, I'm still not sure what to do about it. One reason it isn't as bad as right wing religiosity is that yes, religions are different, and a religion that urges welfare isn't as bad as a religion that crusades against science and gay rights.
On the Komen thing, you are missing a couple of basic facts. First, nobody other than Planned Parenthood provides services like first-line breast cancer screening to many of our nation's women. Second, the net effect of this storm in a teacup has been... more money for women's health! Seems fine to me.
Um, I do. I've worked in a breast clinic for 4 years, and I can't think of a single patient who was turned down because of money.
Also, point of fact? Breast radiology is a specialized field. Either they're referring their patients to clinics like mine, in which case they're redundant, or they're trying to do it themselves, which is irresponsible. I'm not sure which, because in all this time, I've never once had cause to inteact with Planned Parenthood.
Here's an idea: stop voting for liars and hypocrites. Extra hint: Hillary Clinton wasn't the right answer either.
Hate to break it to you but PP doesn't provide the screening.
a religion that urges welfare isn't as bad as a religion that crusades against science and gay rights
That would be Christianity vs. Christianity, right?
So much for atheism, psychiatry, and Global Warming Alarmism, then. They've crusaded against all of those things.
Barack Obama, on the other hand, says faith drives much of his domestic agenda?and no one even blinks.
Because his faith is in Marx, Cloward, Piven, and Saul Alinsky.
You got your redneck talking points down!
...which doesn't mean they are false.
They are completely false. Go to a progressive blog and Obama is a neo-liberal Goldman Sachs/Google/Apple capitalist who is secretly holding stock in those companies and doing their bidding.
The truth is he has been great for business - biggest gain in the markets ever for any president.
They're completely true, and you leftists have taken to "crony capitalism"/corporatism/fascism just as easily as you took to religion the moment it was your Messiah in the White House.
Obama might be a crony capitalist.
What is ridiculous is that he is a Marxist/blah/blah/blah.
Bush handed everyone a $300 check. What has Obama done like that?
He gave everyone's $300 check to a handful of campaign donors.
Yeah but the only reason Bush handed people $300 is to try and keep progressives happy while invaded Iraq.
And the reason progressives call Obama a crony capitalist is because they've been instructed to by Obama's political strategists. It's called triangulation. If both the left and the right hate you, you must be a moderate...right? So the left pretends to hate Obama.
The reason he returned that money to them is because people like money. The reason you relentlessly demonize him for liberating Iraq from Saddam Hussein is that Bush did it rather than your Messiah.
I knew you guys were slavishly devoted to your Messiah, but I must say I find this sudden admission to being his brainwashed zombie slaves a bit disconcerting.
The left actually does hate him for not being even farther to the left than he is; just not as much as they hate anyone to the right of him.
I hope that the Schmuck-in-Chief is going to run on this "Everything is wonderful" laughable bullcrap you spew here every day.
According to Gallup, 40% of Americans think God created Humans 10000 years ago (or less). Sadly, that's an improvement over the past 20 years (46%).
We're fucking doomed.
40% of Americans believe in UFO's and Bigfoot. We ARE doomed.
I just hope it's the same 40%, and not 80% believing in pure fiction.
Maybe the Aliens don't come visit cause they're afraid of all the ghosts and Bigfoots and Chupacabras?
You forgot the ghost of Elvis.
Don't be cruel.
We built the richest civilization in history with nearly everyone believing that. What the fuck do you care what people believe?
I don't necessarily care as much *what* they believe, just *how* they can believe with an abundance of evidence to the contrary. It's more of a statement about their capacity for reasoning.
(drink).
No it is not. Some of the most reasonable people who ever lived believed just that. People who did shit you will never do.
There is a 5000 year history of ridiculously smart people who have believed that up to and including people like Isaac Newton who probably had more brain capacity in his nose bleeds than you and I will ever have. And today, I know people who are doctors and engineers who believe just that. As a matter of fact, I don't know a single person who is a strict evangelical who isn't pretty educated and pretty damned smart.
That doesn't mean they are right. But it totally puts lie to the idea that "only stupid people would ever believe that."
I don't care what you say, I will never visit a doctor that thinks human life was created 10000 years ago by God. No argument can persuade me otherwise.
Aside from that, I'm not calling them stupid. I'm just saying 40% of our society lacks a certain capacity for reasoning that makes me believe we are fucked.
If you lack the capacity for reasoning, I would say you are calling them stupid. And I don't see how you can say someone who is an engineer or a doctor much less someone like Newton "lacks the capacity for reasoning".
And I know a couple of very good doctors who believe just that. If I am sick and need help, I don't care if they are sacrificing chickens at home. I just care if they know what they are doing and the ones I know do.
If you lack the capacity for reasoning, I would say you are calling them stupid. And I don't see how you can say someone who is an engineer or a doctor much less someone like Newton "lacks the capacity for reasoning".
Ok, here we have a semantic disagreement then. "Stupid" implies the inability to learn. Critical thinking is a learned skill (one that really isn't taught anymore).
I do take minor offense at comparing a doctor today to Newton et al. Back in the 1600-1700's, there was not substantial evidence to the contrary. I mean, the Church had just relented in its crusade against Science.
"Critical thinking is a learned skill (one that really isn't taught anymore)."
So you can be an engineer or a doctor and have no critical thinking skills? And there were plenty of atheists in Newton's time. There has always been atheists. They just were not public about it. And there have always been arguments for and against the existence of God and the validity of Christianity. Newton chose to believe and in a very serious way. You think he was wrong. Fine. Maybe he was. But his existence puts lie to your contention everyone who isn't an atheist lacks critical thinking skills.
There are millions of people out there who put lie to that. Just admit it move on.
So you can be an engineer or a doctor and have no critical thinking skills?
Yes.
There has always been atheists. They just were not public about it. And there have always been arguments for and against the existence of God and the validity of Christianity. Newton chose to believe and in a very serious way. You think he was wrong. Fine. Maybe he was. But his existence puts lie to your contention everyone who isn't an atheist lacks critical thinking skills.
See, here we're getting into an evidence argument; one not worth having in all honesty. I can not know what Newton knew or did not know in regards to his faith. I don't know what evidence he had before him 300 years ago.
I'm not even debating the fact that he had faith in a God. That's fine.
The notion that Human life was created 10000 years ago today is absurd in light of the abundance of evidence we have now. THAT'S what I find absurd.
I think you're having problems comprehending this 10000 year qualifier.
I will never visit a doctor that thinks human life was created 10000 years ago by God. No argument can persuade me otherwise.
How do you know for certain that you haven't?
How do you know for certain that you haven't?
I will never
Future tense.
There's a possibility that you will without knowing it, which is why I noted that you may already have. I mean, I've seen half a dozen physicians over the past decade and I don't know anything about their personal beliefs on religion, politics, or sports.
You don't have a sit-down (read: interview) with your doctors before they operate/diagnose you?
I don't care about the religion of a doctor I go to. If he tries to get me to pray the diabeetus away, I just go to another one.
^^This^^ I care about what he knows about medicine. His views on metaphysics are his business.
Forget it, John. Idiots like anon are all the proof we need that atheism is inherently false. I mean, look what it's done to him!
That's some strange reasoning. If you have a rare disease and the best doctor in the world for that disease happens to be a modern Orthodox Jew who believes man was created on a biblical time scale, you're really never see him? Accepting your absurd hyperbole at face value, then you are doctrinaire and ideological to the point of self-harm. To lambast the religious person for accepting a belief that doesn't impact his ability to function in the world by holding such a rigid ideology that it would impact your ability to survive seems a bit rich.
What Untermensch said.
However, as others have noted, if he tells me to pray the disease away (or meditate on a healing crystal), I'll go somewhere else.
If you have a rare disease, I highly recommend you see the doctor who is a modern Orthodox Jew.
If you have complicated finances, I highly recommend you see the accountant who is a modern Orthodox Jew.
If you have to be defended in a civil law matter, I highly recommend you see the lawyer who is a modern Orthodox Jew.
If you have to eat a delicious corned beef sandwich, I highly recommend you see the deli which is owned by a modern Orthodox Jew.
Dude, Jews kick ass!
Plus 90% or more of what we call "western civilization" (and virtually all of it before 1700) was built by people who had those beliefs.
"I am my brother's keeper and I am my sister's keeper". LOL. Patronizing moron.
And my daughters.
Just remember who your brothers are. Remember who your sisters are. And when the White Man strikes your heal, crush his head like the Lord commanded his pyramid-building people!
*heel
The whole "we're supposed to be our brother's keeper" isn't even in the Bible. It's just something Cain says sarcastically to God when God asked him where his brother was (after he'd just killed him.)
Modern translation:
Cain kills Abel. God comes around a few days later and says "Cain, where the hell's Abel? Haven't seen him around lately". Cain says "How the hell should I know, am I responsible for my brother? (Am I my brother's keeper?)"
The lesson of the story isn't "Cain should have been watching over Abel". That doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever in context. The lesson is "Cain shouldn't have killed Abel."
Mr. Hinkle strikes me as less interested in the issue of the role of religious faith in policy than in scoring points against leftists. I suppose this is because the former is more difficult. Mr. Hinkle can hardly fault others for letting their political bias get in the way of an openness to the full truth when his own article is an example of it. After all, Mr. Hinkle conveniently leaves out an important part of Obama's case in favor of the role of religious faith in developing policy: while it is true that Obama said that ""secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square" he also pointed out in the very same speech that policies need to also be defended using the sort of evidence that everyone can in principle agree to, regardless of one's religious faith or lack thereof. In other words, secular evidence. Basing a policy solely upon religious doctrine is not enough. That's a vital difference, and one that Mr. Hinkle's own political bias causes him to either not see or choose to ignore. This vital difference, after all, could be an explanation of the different take some leftists have of Bush and Obama on this issue--so Mr. Hinkle leaves it out.
Shorter Mel, it is okay as long as our side does it.
Well, John, we all already know that political types, right or left, tend to be pretty hypocritical, so an article making that point is pretty easy to write--that's why there's so many of them. But Mr. Hinkle screws it up, because he doesn't stop to think that there might be a relevant difference between Bush's view and Obama's view on the role of religion in politics despite their agreement that religion has a role to play. I have no idea whether Bush or Obama is right, but I was simply pointing out that their views do seem to differ in an important way. Mr. Hinkle's thinking seems to have been "Bush say God-things. Obama say God-things. The Left complain about Bush. The Left no complain about Obama. The Left hypocrites." Why didn't Mr. Hinkle investigate the question of the possible differences between the two men's views? Because it's difficult, and because he isn't interested. So we end up with a trivial hit piece that does absolutely nothing to advance the discussion. It's political thought for the stupid.
You've got Hinkle's number, Mel. This entire site is devoted to finding "evidence" of the correctness of right-wing "libertarianism." Have you ever seen anything here that calls into question right-wing libertarian dogmas? Ron Paul, who has spouted incredible Christian identity nonsense, is a fucking hero to these blowhards.They beg for donations all the time because there aren't enough true-believer zombies to keep them afloat.
Moo!
Ron Paul, who has spouted incredible Christian identity nonsense, is a fucking hero to these blowhards.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Paul wants the state to prevent you from putting on your jimmy hat or prevent your hooker from taking birth control.
That's the difference.
That's the difference between what?
This whole analysis of the Komen episode is obviously twisted to conform to the author's agenda.
Komen, for political motivations, attempted to implement a conservative policy. If this policy was supported by their contributors it would of enhanced their standing. It was not. Therefore they reversed their decision.
Komen, for political motivations,
Stop right there, unless you've got some evidence.
attempted to implement a conservative policy
Slow down. Still assuming a lot. Why couldn't they have just decided that PP wasn't the best use of that money for totally apolitical reasons?
Komen, an organization consisting of a bunch of bullies, found out what it's like to have somebody bully them.
Does PP really do anything in the fight against breast cancer anyway? (I've got family members with non-ribbon bully diseases, so I don't pay attention to what organizations do about breast cancer, and find the ribbon bully stuff they do every October incredibly obnoxious.)
PP supposedly does mammograms for the po'. I could easily see Komen concluding that they get more bang for their buck somewhere else.
But, they've shown weakness. Expect escalating demands for funding from PP from now on, Komen. You should have just taken your beating and moved on. Now, you've taken your beating, and you're still on the hook. Brilliant.
The funny thing is that at least two of Bush's appointees to the office of "Faith Czar" (yes, someone actualy used that term) resigned with very bad feelings about the job.
One of them even wrote a book complaining that for all the public lip service religiousity got, for the most part except for Bush himself everyone in the Administration was a fucking heathen who constantly ridiculed him in private.
I actually believe that there are far more atheists in office than will publically acknowledge it.
For example, I suspect that pols like Dick Cheney espouse Christianity not because they believe it themselves but because they think it is neccessary for keeping the lower orders behaving properly.
everyone in the Administration was a fucking heathen
Uh, Isaac, IIRC the Bush administration was pretty male heavy. They couldn't ALL have been shagging Condi.
Hey, I said, "for the most part", didn't I?
Actually we were all reverse furry Satanic woodland critters in disguise taking turns rutting and cumming on Condi's legs. Heil Satan, we miss those gorgeous gams. Can't even get her back to Jackson Hole, the secret Vatican of Satan without paying that whore some serious dolla-dollas. But it's worth it. Rutting and cumming on Condi's legs is like nothing else to get a critter off!
I don't have a recollection of much Jesus-wheezing from Cheney.
Actually, I think it's his wife that's more known for it. I think some of her books have a nod to "traditional values" in them. And she did get on the bandwagon with Tipper Gore about rock music.
But, yeah, according to the all-knowing wikipedia Dick and Lynne Cheney are Methodists. My impression is that they are mainline rather than evangelical like Dubya is.
Actually old Dick seems like the inclusive kind of Christian if anything. I kind of think his relationship with his lesbian daughter says that. She has pretty much only ever said positive things about him.
Bush is a Methodist as well. There are quite a few evangelicals in mainline denominations, especially Methodism. There are evangelical Presbyterians, evangelical Anglicans and Episcopalians, etc. And you'll find that despite the media take, most evangelicals are fairly tolerant of homosexuality, despite their theological opinions about it.
hypocrisy from liberal media pundits??? I'm shocked. SHOCKED!
I love the term " Liberal Dogma " , it's exactly what is happening.
"Barack Obama, on the other hand, says faith drives much of his domestic agenda?and no one even blinks.
The reason no one gets upset is because no one believes a word he says.
Not even the people who like Obama believe anything he says.
He's too smart to believe anything he says!
White journalists aghast at white religiosity, completely comfortable with black religiosity. This is like Tebow all over again.
It's more of the same soft bigotry bullshit. For white people, it's "white people should be smart enough to know religion is absurd," whereas for black people, the attitude is "well, it DOES keep them off drugs, you know."
"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them..."
Its kind of hard to imagine a genuinely religious person saying something like this.
The thesis of this essay is that Obama is too religious, but all the evidence provided is about him being too liberal. (When it is specifically about him at all.)
What's the difference?
This is just pandering during and election year. Everyone knows he thinks he is God.
So much for the separation of church and state, eh, Team Blue?
It's okay when Team Blue uses religion to further The Cause.
Yes, you are right. Komen is a private organization that is entitled to give its money to whoever it wants to for whatever reason it wants to.
However, as a private organization, it is dependent upon private donations from individuals who, likewise, are entitled to give their own money to whoever they want to for whatever reason they want to.
Suppose - you say - that Komen's critics are right about their suspicion that Komen's Planned Parenthood decision was motivated by anti-abortion sentiment. So what, you ask? OK. But then, suppose that you are right in your contention that the uproar that ensued is also not really about women's health. So what, ask I?