Wannabe President to Wannabe Americans: Get in Line

Last night, presidential wannabe Mitt Romney offered illegal immigrants the exciting opportunity to "Get in line with everybody else." Various other contenders for the Republican nomination have suggested that America's conflicted relationship with her illegal immigrants could be resolved if only border crossers were willing to go home and "get in the back of the line."

Thus, a quick reminder of what happens when you try to immigrate to this country on the up-and-up, from our October 2008 issue (Click for big PDF version):

Comments

[rather]

So?

[MikeP]

A needle pulling thread...

[Doe]

Doe

[Moe Ron]

A narcissist.

[rather]

I love that your learned response cements that you jackasses don't understand the topic you are commenting on; it is so American

[Tim]

"I love that your learned response cements that you jackasses don't understand the topic you are commenting on; it is so American "

I note that you've missed your period.

[rather]

Wow, who gives a fuck

no question mark either

[Tim]

double entendre (plural double entendres)

(idiomatic) A phrase that has two meanings, especially where one is innocent and literal, the other risqu?, bawdy, or ironic; an innuendo.

[Sparky]

It's not as funny if you have to explain it.

[rather]

sorry, ASD humor escapes me, and so does middle school 2.0

[Sparky]

sorry, ASD humor escapes me, and so does did middle school 2.0.

FIFY

[rather]

wow, 'FIFY' a clever idea Sparky; maybe it will catch on!

[Sparky]

wow, 'FIFY' a clever idea Sparky; maybe it will catch on!

Wow, a humorless bitch. Clever idea rather, maybe it will catch on.

[rather]

was the 'humorless' the insult?

[Sparky]

was the 'humorless' the insult?

Insult? Nah, just an observation. Keep up the good work though, the world has been suffering from a lack of humorless bitches lately.

[Tim]

You've been so abused you can't laugh anymore...it was Sugarfree wasn't it? That bastard!

[rather]

sugarfree is just a pawn, and a not very clever one at that

[Steven Smith, Therapist]

Tell us about your feelings. It's safe here.

[Sparky]

Don't make her laugh.

[Michael Z. Williamson]

Hate is not a liberal value.

[Pro Libertate]

A female deer.

[rather]

a lying lawyer brilliant prose

[Pro Libertate]

You know, not every comment around here is about you.

[rather]

you know, mine is about you

[DesigNate]

Holy fuck. What's got you in such a bitchy mood this morning? Is this one of the manic phases I keep hearing about?

[Steven Smith, Therapist]

Nate we can't achieve a break through with you using harsh language.

[STEVE SMITH]

HARSH LANGUAGE MAKE STEVE SMITH, THERAPIST TURN INTO STEVE SMITH, RAPIST. STEVE SMITH RAPE!

[Rev. Blue Moon]

I think "the rapist" was the joke.

[DesigNate]

Damn, that one totally flew over my head. *Hangs head in shame*

[Tim]

Oh shit! He's loose!

[Rev. Blue Moon]

At least she's not stealing people's handles and arguing with herself today.

[Steven Smith, Therapist]

Here was a missed opportunity to open her up like a dewey flower in the morning sun. Tragic.

[Rev. Blue Moon]

That's what you think...ASSHOLE!

[Mainer]

Dough, I use
To buy some beer
Ray, I guy I buy beer from
Me, a guy
I buy beer for
Fah, the distance to the store.
SO, I think I'll have beer
La.....la, la, la, la, la ,la.
Tea, no thanks I'll have a beer
And that brings us back to
Dough........

[Tim]

Bring in a few tens of million Indians and Chinese and you'd see this economy get churning again

[Anonymous]

Cool post hoc fallacy bro

[Anonymous]

That was supposed to be a response to "Close the Border" vvv

[Close the Border]

Alabama unemployment rate falls 1.7 percentage points after enacting tougher immigration laws.

I know people around here like to joke about, "They took our jobs," but now the results are in, and the facts say that illegal immigrants really are taking away jobs that American citizens will do and want to do.

[Dey took...]

..er JERBS!!!1111!!

[Cytotoxic]

Have fun with lower productivity and higher prices!

[Hey...]

Fuck You, Cyto. You're so full of shit you don't even understand basic economics. When there are fewer slave-wage illegals, then our salaries will go up. America for Americans.

[And...]

...when salaries go up, prices go up to cover the higher cost of labor. Fucking economics, how does it work?

[Sparky]

Fucking economics, how does it work?

Probably not an appropriate time for this question since most people really don't know.

[Michael Z. Williamson]

So, we should import 97 million Chinese laborers tomorrow and prices will go waaaaaaaay down. The rest of us can site around spending the money we earned from...

oh, wait...

[Zeb]

Who said anything about importing 97 million Chinese?

[DesigNate]

Baseless assertion is baseless.

[Smack MacDougal]

"...when salaries go up, prices go up to cover the higher cost of labor. Fucking economics, how does it work?"

~ And...

Economics doesn't work like that. Prices have nothing to do with costs.

Prices arise from the one, true, infrangible law that governs the whole of economics ? the Law of Prices.

The Law of Prices holds that the winning bids of demand in the face of supply set the price. If costs rise in the face of the same winning bidders, profits fall and nothing else.

Economics. THAT IS HOW IT WORKS

[DesigNate]

Prices have nothing to do with costs.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Close the Border]

We'll see. You liberaltarians were saying that the law wouldn't have an effect on unemployment. Apparently, employers would rather shutter their business than have to hire Americans to do the jobs they were giving to illegals in whatever universe you people live in, but you were dead wrong about that. I suspect you'll be wrong on this prediction, too.

[Sparky]

Keep an eye on the news for people complaining about how the cost of locally grown food has gone up for some strange reason.

[Arcaster]

^This

[Sparky]

I imagine a bunch of news anchors being perplexed about what might have caused the rise in price followed shortly by a government program to study what's going on.

[rac3rx]

I'd rather pay more for lettuce.

If someone breaks into my house, steals my cash, wears my clothes, and eats my food, I'm going to shoot him. I'm not going to let him take up residence because he cleaned up the place. In reality though, they don't clean up anything, they suck up resources and trash everything they touch. If you don't live in a border state and see first hand the decay and ruin that happens to areas heavily traveled and/or populated by illegals, then you really should educate yourself better because you don't have a clue.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Close the Border,

You liberaltarians were saying that the law wouldn't have an effect on unemployment.

That's because there's no evidence the law did this by itself, more likely a case of post hoc reasoning. The reason Alabama has a higher level of employment is because the state has been more friendly to business than her neighbors. Texas hasn't enacted such a law yet the unemployment rate is comparably as low, and is much better than California's, with a similarly large immigrant population.

Clearly, the law itself is not the cause for the rise in employment. It is simply a fact of better economic and regulatory conditions. However, expect higher produce and retail prices as cheaper labor is suddenly unavailable.

[Cytotoxic]

OM hits it out of the park.

[DesigNate]

Thanks OM, I was just about the bust out the Texas info.

[rac]

I don't think anyone is against cheap labor. It's how they cross the border illegally, the additional cost of having immigrants in your state, including crime, etc.

I think it would be an interesting experiment to close the border and see if the reduction in labor would have an effect on how Americans view our southern neighbors. An experiment that will never happen. If the issues were all economic, that would be one thing. But the Democratic party is relying on the vote of the millions of illegal immigrants in the future (and in many cases, now).

[Rev. Blue Moon]

I don't think anyone is against cheap labor. It's how they cross the border illegally, the additional cost of having immigrants in your state, including crime, etc.

And all of those things are code for racism. I don't toss that accusation around lightly, but the number of times that these taking points have been disproved and yet continue to be prevalent means that something else is going on.

[rac]

The argument that having additional people in a state creates a greater cost to the state has been disproved? You my friend, are an idiot. You must be black.

[Rev. Blue Moon]

The argument that having additional people in a state creates a greater cost to the state has been disproved? You my friend, are an idiot. You must be black.

It is not an argument on pure, raw numbers. Of course your costs go up there. The issue is whether your average immigrant costs more than a born-in-America citizen. If you are talking about raw numbers, then you must support sterilization and one-child policies. Is that true?

[rac]

I did not say they cost "more" than anyone. But they do cost something. The question is, how much? And, what do they pay in taxes. If I were king, I would make them all legal today, if they report their existence. I would close the border as tightly as possible, and as labor is needed, have legal immigration supply it. That includes cheap labor, as well as skilled labor, etc. Right now, the only "legal" labor influx is the skilled kind, the bureaucracy of which is explained in the cartoon above.

[Michael Z. Williamson]

And yet my family came here the legal way, jumping lots of hoops, leaving the old life behind, and I concur on not allowing random incursions by illegals.

Partly because they generally wind up below the bottom tier and treated with contempt.

BTW, it most certainly has been proven that illegals contribute to crime, lower employment (by axiom, more people looking for the same jobs dilutes the market. What's our unemployment rate now?)

I can only assume you're the racist, repeating lies to maintain an oppressed underclass to furnish you with cheap goods.

[MWG]

"Partly because they generally wind up below the bottom tier and treated with contempt."

How noble of you. You want them out for their own good.

[Heroic Mulatto]

And yet my family came here the legal way, jumping lots of hoops, leaving the old life behind, and I concur on not allowing random incursions by illegals.

And yet, Mr. Williamson, when your family came here, the 'legal way' was just to hop on a boat with a bunch of other filthy, toothless European immigrants and disembark at Ellis Island.

[MikeP]

it most certainly has been proven that illegals lower employment (by axiom, more people looking for the same jobs dilutes the market...)

Axiom? Are you serious?

You "axiom" apparently doesn't allow for (a) lower wages employing more people than before, (b) the higher total production and lower consumer prices due to (a), (c) greater productivity gains due to (a) and (b), or (d) greater labor specialization and comparative advantage due to (a), (b), and (c).

That is the path to greater standard of living for all -- immigrant and native alike. Short-circuiting that process by refusing to allow someone to take the low skilled jobs as the economy moves toward higher skilled, higher valued production is the path to ruin.

[IT'S NOT FAIR!!]

I followed a bad law and jumped through hoops so everyone else has too!!!

[R C Dean]

BTW, it most certainly has been proven that illegals contribute to crime, lower employment (by axiom, more people looking for the same jobs dilutes the market. What's our unemployment rate now?)

Higher than it was when we had more illegal aliens in the country.

The population of illegal immigrants leveled off after peaking in 2007 at 12 million, then dropping sharply over two years to 11.1 million in 2009, according to the report, which is based on census data.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html

[Cabeza de Vaca]

Has it ever crossed your mind that making it impossible for illegals to find work might increase crime?

[DesigNate]

It never crosses their tiny little brains.

[Hazel Meade]

Regardless of whether more "Americans" got hired, why is it anyone's right to stop someone else from working for someone else.

Based solely on an artificial criterion such as national origin.
Some asshole drew a line on a piece of paper 500 years ago and that determines who has the right to be employed by whom?

[freeforall232]

@Hazel Meade - Brilliant!

[Joe R.]

The sun came up this morning after I sacrificed a virgin.

[DesigNate]

Yes but was she an immigrant virgin?

[Ice Nine]

Dunno. Was she younger than 13?

[o3]

The online community had mixed reviews on the report. Some credit Alabama's new immigration law. Others gave credit to the president while still others said things aren't that great yet. Read some of what people are saying:

? "Combination of improvement in general US economy, Obama stimulous and yes, economic efforts of Governor Bently. No more no less.

If some of statistic reflect illegals afraid to report, so be it, however, not a good reason for immoral, mean spirited legislation." -- sundevil72

? "And more people apply each month then jobs created so how is this possible plus does not count the unemployed that can no longer collect unemployment.

"I have to call BS on this one !!" -- Jim Bob

What explains the drop in unemployment in Massachusetts, California, Idaho, Florida and other states that are reporting declines? It's got nothing to do with the immigration bill.

http://blog.al.com/businessnew.....s_and.html

[DesigNate]

There's this magical thing called the holidays. It usually accounts for an uptick in employment. And surprise surprise, it just happens to run from October through December.

[RedDragon6009]

I'm curious; could it be that Alabama's unemployment drop has something to do with the flood of unemployed legal Hispanic residents fleeing the state after it enacted the law?

Remember kids, correlation does NOT equal causation.

[Arcaster]

Remember kids, correlation does NOT equal causation.

But then the Mexican-hating assholes on here wouldn't be able to say anything.... oh.

[Raston Bot]

http://www2.dir.state.al.us/Laus/CLF/ALUS.aspx

Since June, Alabama lost 31,000 from its labor force. The employed ranks increased 10,000 in October and another 4,000 in December.

Maybe 'Close the Border' is right. If you chase away three times as many workers as you employ, then your unemployment rate will decrease.

[anon]

derp, how much does it cost to have your lawn mowed now?

[o3]

that's not the point....which is, brown guys steal & talk funnys.

[Hazel Meade]

The question really should be "Why is it anyones moral right to stop two consenting adults from engaging in a mutally beneficial contract?"

And they wouldn't be wage-slave illegals if they had legal status, because then they could go to the police for breach of contract. It's their "illegal" status that makes them easily exploitable.

[Arcaster]

Excellent

[adam]

But it was going down before the law went into effect and it's been going down nationally. Correlation does not equal causation.

[Close the Border]

Cool post hoc fallacy bro

Why aren't neighboring states that didn't pass new immigration laws seeing the same decline in unemployment that Alabama is? Alabama is the anomaly here because they got tough on immigration. When there is no more cheap illegal labor, employers give the jobs to American citizens and legal immigrants--exactly what supporters of the new laws said would happen.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Close the Border,

When there is no more cheap illegal labor, employers give the jobs to American citizens and legal immigrants - exactly what supporters of the new laws said would happen.

You mean a law was enacted and voila! People who were otherwise too expensive and unproductive were hired. Yeah, that was the reason.

[Close the Border]

Or maybe the people weren't too expensive or unproductive, but when there are only X jobs, and Y job seekers, and Y > X, some job seekers will be left without a job. If you think that the new law isn't the cause of the drop in unemployment, what is?

[Old Mexican]

Re: Close the Border,

You really suck at economics, CB. If people were not being employed for similar jobs, is because they were too expensive and unproductive enough.

Besides this, you commit the same fallacy than the clueless lefties when thinking that there's only a set number of jobs. It hasn't occured to you that maybe Alabamian businessmen were creating new businesses at the same time the law was being enacted and would've hired those people anyway. Yours is the cash for clunkers mentality.

[Close the Border]

OM, I have to say I'm surprised to see you taking the side of the illegals and liberaltarians. I had you pegged as a Dr. Ron Paul supporter from lurking here. Dr. Paul understands the importance of a secure border and getting tough on immigration. Take a look.

[Rev. Blue Moon]

OM understands that if the state tells you with whom you may associate, its slavery all the way down.

[DesigNate]

Just cause some of us support Paul on a lot of things doesn't mean we think he has everything right.

[Michael Z. Williamson]

Wait, are you questioning Ron Paul?

HERETIC!

[Jeffrey]

This is the difference between a paul supporter and a paultard.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Close the Border,

OM, I have to say I'm surprised to see you taking the side of the illegals and liberaltarians.

I'm taking the side of sound economics - there's a difference, you know.

I had you pegged as a Dr. Ron Paul supporter from lurking here.

What does that have to do with Alabama and the argument that the anti-immigrant law achieved less unemployment? If you don't have a good counterargment, just concede, but don't go flying off a tangent when expediency dictates it.

[robc]

There is no such thing as a liberaltarian. Shut the fuck up.

And you are a xenophobe.

Unemployment didnt go down when an American gets a job over a Mexican, it stays the same. One guy got a job, one guy didnt. It doesnt change.

Oh, the official government number might change, but the real one doesnt.

[Zeb]

Ooh! "Liberaltarian" How clever of you. Did you come up with that on your own?

[Heroic Mulatto]

Stop teasing the yokeltarian, Zeb. They get mighty ornery when you poke 'em.

[anon]

I hate that paultards actually support Paul, and they're the majority of his vocal supporters.

[anon]

He also doesn't take into account the price increases of luxury services (Landscaping particularly).

[Zeb]

So? People still ought to have the right to hire whomever they want to.

[Arcaster]

Even if true, how does that trump my right to freely engage in mutually beneficial trade with another adult?

[wylie]

commerce....general welfare....GET IN LINE BITCH! Or we'll MAKE you get in line...well, or just invade your house and shoot you dead. Same/diff.

[o3]

The online community had mixed reviews on the report. Some credit Alabama's new immigration law. Others gave credit to the president while still others said things aren't that great yet. Read some of what people are saying:

? "Combination of improvement in general US economy, Obama stimulous and yes, economic efforts of Governor Bently. No more no less.

If some of statistic reflect illegals afraid to report, so be it, however, not a good reason for immoral, mean spirited legislation." -- sundevil72

? "And more people apply each month then jobs created so how is this possible plus does not count the unemployed that can no longer collect unemployment.

"I have to call BS on this one !!" -- Jim Bob

What explains the drop in unemployment in Massachusetts, California, Idaho, Florida and other states that are reporting declines? It's got nothing to do with the immigration bill.

http://blog.al.com/businessnew.....s_and.html

[R C Dean]

Why aren't neighboring states that didn't pass new immigration laws seeing the same decline in unemployment that Alabama is?

So many citations, missing. Were they here illegally, too?

[Joe R.]

Why aren't neighboring states that didn't pass new immigration laws seeing the same decline in unemployment that Alabama is?

Um, from the same article:

The unemployment rate in next-door Georgia is 9.7 percent, down from 10.3 percent in September, according to Georgia's department of labor.

But I guess it didn't fall quite as much, which makes it proof that evicting people who aren't even on my property A-OK.

[Chatroom Crank]

Surprise, Georgia passed a tough immigration law last year too. Remember the "Produce is rotting" meme the invader lobby tried to pull in Georgia.

[MWG]

So I'm guessing you're a big defender of stimulous spending under Obama as there's essentially no difference between what Obama has arguing and what you and CB are arguing.

[anon]

People create wealth, the government does not.

When I can pay someone half of what it would cost me to pick a field all day, it frees my time and money to do something more productive.

So yes, in short, illegals are good for the economy.

[anon]

And a lack of minimum wage would be even better. Instantly lower unemployment.

[Cytotoxic]

Haha surprise America's unemployment rate has fallen (marginally) over the last few months. Remember that correlation that wasn't really the causation that the nativist idiots tried to sucker us with?

[anon]

Interesting, NC's unemployment's dropped too without enacting "tough immigration laws," and we're getting all of Alabama and Georgia's immigrants.

Go figure, cheap labor to pick tobacco helps our economy.

[DesigNate]

But..but...but that's unpossible!

[Chatroom Crank]

Culture matters and importing hordes of 3rd world invaders has destroyed the culture that gave the US the liberty it has enjoyed.

[Sparky]

You mean the liberty that started with thousands of immigrants coming to this country and building it?

[Arcaster]

But but but those were the good immigrants. Not those taco-eating, brown-skinned Mexicans.

Maybe Chatroom Crank and Close the Border would like for all immigrants and their descendants to be sent back "home"?

[Cytotoxic]

"But it's different this time!"

[Robert S]

It is different this time. Yesterday's immigrants were expected to assimilate and they did. Today's immigrants are being taught not to assimilate into the larger patriarchal, ethnocentric culture that is rife with institutional racism. Just a quick question for all of the history buffs here: 100 years ago how many state-funded colleges had entire departments dedicated to teaching minorities to hate white men?

[Arcaster]

So state-funded colleges being stupid is supposed to OK you kicking out immmigrants? Bullshit. Just because the government fucks up in one way does not excuse you wanting it to fuck up in another.

[Robert S]

You missed the point. I shouldn't have included state-funded in my argument. The point was that immigration today is different from immigration yesterday because the immigrants today are being taught to reject our culture and retain their own. However, their culture created failed societies (or at least societies less successful than our own).

Many of us living in the Southwest are worried that our fair states are going to turn into another version of Mexico or El Salvador and that would suck balls. Regrettably, our understandable concerns about the cultural affinity of Latin Americans for statism, are regularly ridiculed by the libertarians here with unfounded accusations of racism. The truth of the matter is if your state's demographics looked like mine, this should terrify you:
http://www.people-press.org/20.....c-headline

[DesigNate]

What a load of horseshit. You mean that culture that bent over to suck the dick of FDR and then Johnson and now Obama? Cause that's white culture, not those smelly Mexican's. Moron.

[Close the Border]

I hate FDR and LBJ as much as any red blooded Southern man, but I'll take the New Deal and the Great Society over drug gangs taking over our towns like what is going on in Mexico right now.

[Rev. Blue Moon]

False dichotomy is false.

I cannot imagine that the mindset of immigrants is "I just escaped that hellhole...now I want to recreate it here!"

[Moar false dich]

murder & abduction =/ the new deal

[Michael Z. Williamson]

Massholes use exactly that logic when they move to NH. Why would relocators from anywhere else have a different mindset?

[Heroic Mulatto]

I see you wrote a book with John "Kill All the Space Muslims" Ringo.

Now wonder you're so full of that Blut and Boden bullshit. Go back to writing your genocidial masturbatory fantasies and leave the immigration policy discussion to the adults.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Will you take having the drugs be legal so that drug gangs aren't in a position to take over towns?

[DesigNate]

I guess we should have closed the borders 100 years ago when those dirty Wops and Micks were taking over our towns with the mafia and bootlegging.

[wylie]

It's almost as if there was another solution to that crime...hmmm, if only I had two brain cells to rub together, I'm sure I could figure it out.

[DesigNate]

I swear to Science it's like some of these morons have never opened a fucking book. I wonder how many of them also think that WW2 spending is what brought us out of the Depression.

[anon]

Government education teaches that WW2 ended great depression, so it must be true right?

/sic

[Hazel Meade]

So you think drug gangs are some sort of natural Mexican thing, instead of a phenomenon created by a particular legal and political environment?

[anon]

Ironically, most former mexicans I know with a green card are very libertarian.

[anon]

If only there were a law against illegal immigration, all our problems could be solved!

Oh wait.

[R C Dean]

Culture matters and importing hordes of 3rd world invaders has destroyed the culture that gave the US the liberty it has enjoyed.

Godesky/White Indian would agree.

[Rev. Blue Moon]

I bet that if I closed off free trade, there'd be a sudden bonanza of hiring for American tailors and seamsters/seamstresses. And then a low-grade shirt would cost $75.

Awesome.

[Cytotoxic]

Why stop only immigration from other countries? Damn Alabamans aren't taking my friend's job over in Washington. Hell lets just force people to stay right where they are and fix what they have.

[wylie]

Commerce Clause to the rescue!

*cue Mighty Mouse theme*

[tarran]

Cyto, your titanium tax doesn't go too far enough!

It's time to close city and town borders! Not only should NH immigrants and commuters be prevented from taking MA jobs, but Lexingtonians should not be taking jobs away from hard working Bostonians!

[anon]

Dude, you guys are all missing it. If we cut off trade with the rest of the world we could finally have energy independence! And $100/gallon gasoline.

[anon]

Nevermind, we wouldn't even need gasoline as cars would be too expensive to own.

[Sparky]

But the $75 would be so worth it for a shirt that wears out in 3 months.

[o3]

please calculate the shirt cost matrix.

show ur work.

please begin

[Lepus]

I wonder how Glenn Beck is doing with the 45 dollar tshirts?

http://glennbeck.shop.musictod.....9940_51394

[anon]

To be fair, it's a book *and* a shirt. The shirts are only 30!

[tarran]

I have a modest proposal that Mr Close The Borders will no doubt support.

We outlaw any vehicle being built with more than 100 HP and 1000 lb carrying capacity with a requirement of a minimum of one human driver for each vehicle.

Imagine how many farm jobs would be created! How many trucking jobs! Plus the wear and tear on the roads would go down! Our ports would once again teem with jobs!

[Zeb]

Outlaw shipping containers too. That would really get the ports going.

[anon]

I just imagined a shipment of gigantic black dildos arriving on a cargo ship, completely unpackaged.

[DesigNate]

Fuck we should just outlaw technology. Then we could have 100% employment.

[anon]

But then we couldn't have ABORSHUNS!!!1111one

[DesigNate]

They could just do it the old fashioned way by falling down a flight of stairs or something.

[anon]

Stairs are technology. More like a cliff.

[Wholly Holy Cow]

Close the Borders:

Just remember, most of the "libertarians" here are idiots. They have no understanding of personal property rights. Just feelings. Sure, you can't cross into their property against their wishes. But say Arizona's or Alambama's state borders-- well, fuck 'em! They don't live there.

Anyway, just remember this thread and how open these *cough* libertarians (they're really leftists) react to, say, White Indian. Of course, he should be banned because he really doesn't belong here. But that's different than enforcing political borders, because like you know as if LOL! I mean totally like you know, um, er... Ron Paul!

[MikeP]

How bad an understanding of personal property rights do you need to possess in order to suggest that someone in Arizona or Alabama who wants to employ or house someone on his personal property needs the state's permission to do so?

[Heroic Mulatto]

Arizona is a person? Alambama [sic] is a person? When did we get assimilated into the Borg collective?

[DesigNate]

You are seriously going to try and use personal property rights as an argument? What I do on my property with whom I invite onto it is none of your damn business.

Also, it's not that White Indian doesn't belong here. It's that he will come in and shit all over a thread without even trying to have a rational discussion. I mean I think you're a fucking retard, but at least you were trying to make an argument, not just talk about gamboling and god knows what else (I generally just scroll past his insane ramblings).

[tarran]

Just remember, Holy Cow is an idiot. He has no understanding of personal property rights. Just feelings. He thinks that there is no difference between a person deciding who he wants on his property and who he doesn't to having a huge collective override his decisions.

He also can't figure out the difference between using persuasion (I ask you not to allow this person on your property) and force (if you allow this person on your property and we catch you we will throw you in jail).

So just remember this thread when he is crying crocodile tears as he alleges that people are saying he's stupid without justification.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Wholly Holy Cow brain,

They have no understanding of personal property rights. Just feelings. Sure, you can't cross into their property against their wishes. But say Arizona's or Alambama's state borders-- well, fuck 'em! They don't live there.

You seem to have no understanding of conceptual contradictions. The borders of Arizona or Alambama (is that a new Muslim state?) are not "personal property."

[Wholly Holy Cow]

So Reason care to do any pieces about the German man (white!) who was so upset about his German (white!!!) mother was getting deported than he lit several dozen arson fires in LA?

It was big news everywhere. I think the Ron Paul newsletters covered it.

[DesigNate]

They did do a couple pieces on it shit for brains.

[Wholly Holy Cow]

Ooh, 1 link to the arson from Jan. 2, thrown in with a bunch of other links.

Surely, there must be some soooper dark college-age Indian (not Native American) girl getting deported because her parents completely dropped the ball, you know, by ignoring the mounds paperwork before their eyes. I'm sure the unfilled out paperwork was WHITE! SO.... UMM RAAAACCIIISMMMM!

Come on, where's the feelings? Where's the bullshit outrage?

'Cause that's what immigration policy is all about-- making dateless loser 'libertarians' feel good about themselves.

So how do you pronounce 'smug' en Espanol?

[DesigNate]

Well first of all I'm married so fuck you very much.

Second of all, fucktards like you don't talk about immigration in regards to little old german women unless you're trying to deflect from your blatant racism towards brown people (you never talk about closing our border with canada).

FWIW, the entire immigration system is fucked up. That doesn't give you the right to go set other people's property on fire.

[Sparky]

What is this I don't even

[Loki]

Nothing like a good old fashioned illegal immigration thread to make me nostalgiac for yesterday's abortion thread.

[anon]

Don't worry, we're doing that in the gun thread.

[Smack MacDougal]

Reason Mag editorial staff get the immigration issue oh-so wrong.

No authentic libertarian advocates expanding government and thus no authentic libertarian supports the cause of illegal immigrants.

Reason Mag editorial staff and all other inauthentic libertarians are behind this kind of thought:

I've abandoned libertarian, small government principles to save libertarianism and the promise of a small government.

If you want to have open borders, first, you must end the welfare state. As long as welfare exists, granting amnesty to illegals and adding to the influx of people into the United States results in an ever-expanding welfare system.

[MikeP]

If you want to have open borders, you make immigrants and their children ineligible for welfare for 18 years or so.

[DesigNate]

Yay, a "No True Scotsman" post. I believe that means this comment section can be closed. On to the next one y'all.

[rac]

I part ways with the Libertarian theologists in two respects:

1. "National defense means staying within our borders until someone attacks us." I mean, even the sainted TJ went after the Barbary pirates, over 3,000 miles away. And he didn't even wait for a declaration of war.

2. "Borders have no rational economic basis" (ala Hazel Meade above). Just lines drawn on a map. (One might even ask then, why have a "national defense" if borders are to be ignored.)

These two dogmas are only rational in a rational world. I say,let's have a rational country first. It is a Hobbesian state of nature out there. And from an electability standpoint, the dogmas are a killer.

[MikeP]

1. Nice straw man. Liberating stateless trade routes against actual real attacks is very much not nation building or first-world ally protecting.

2. The purpose of borders is to prevent some worse government's laws from being administered on your side of the border. It is not at all an essential requirement of borders that they prohibit the free movement of peaceable individuals.

[rac]

1. I'm not for nation "building". An occasional nation destroying, yes. But my real point was, well, you know what it was.

2. How do you know they are peaceable? Assume it? Puhleez!

[Ice Nine]

The purpose of borders is to prevent some worse government's laws from being administered on your side of the border.

Who decided that - besides you?

[MikeP]

Me and all the signers of...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

You and others may ascribe other purposes to borders. But those generally go well beyond the legitimate functions of a rights-securing government.

[Ice Nine]

I've searched without success for any mention of the purpose of borders in your quote. So maybe we should leave your answer at "Me" and leave those other guys out of it.

[siblysarkar01]

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