Greece: Money! We Don't Need Your Stinkin' Money!

As we watch our 401ks being whipsawed in the markets by European Union dithering over their sovereign debt crisis (translation: sovereign debt crisis = deadbeat governments are broke), a friend from Germany sent this email this morning: 

I've heard of "beware of Greeks bearing gifts?", but how about "beware of Greeks who won't even take the gifts?"

Headline in a German tabloid this morning:

"You don't need our money? Fine, we don't need your problems."

Asking the Greeks to vote on whether or nor they want to pay back their loans is a lot like telling someone maxed out on their Visa card that it's up to them to decide just much they'd like to pay back. 

Comments

[SugarFree]

OK, so let's say the Greeks vote that they don't want the bail out... So Greece defaults on its debt. So Greece has shitty credit, which it already has. What's the downside for Greece itself? It's not like their creditors can repo The Parthenon.

Like the banks and TARP, maybe a Greece in receivership is what is necessary to wake everyone else up.

[Episiarch]

It's all just a circus, mostly to keep the EU together. Germany and France need to just get the fuck out of the EU, but they really, really don't want to because there are certain features of the EU which really are positive, and because it was such an effort in the first place.

[Restoras]

I think the Germans are just buying time to print up New D-Marks.

[T]

Takes some time to get the new design through committee and engraved, especially with anal retentive Germans running the operation.

[kinnath]

The problem is not currency it's all the fucking software in all the businesses that now run on Euros; they spent a decade making the transition to the Euro. It can't be undone in a couple of months.

[robc]

Just change the symbol for the deutschmark to that funny E thing. Problem solved.

[kinnath]

In the bad old days when a company in Germany bought a product from a company in Greece, the banking system would convert the purchase order (in Marks) and the shipping order (in Dracmas) into an internal currency (like Dollars), reconcile the books, debit the German company, credit the Greek company, and take a cut of the money for their services. The Eurozone wiped out that infrastructure.

[Slap the Enlightened!]

Germany and France need to just get the fuck out of the EU, but they really, really don't want to because there are certain features of the EU which really are positive

More to the point, Germany's banner economy is supported largely by exports. The Euro is the mechanism by which Germany keeps their exports cheap enough to sell in the Euro zone. If the Euro falls apart, and Germany reverts to the Deutschmark, they'll be in roughly the same situation as Switzerland, their exports will be too expensive to sell.

So Germany is pretty well fucked. They can't get out of the Euro without trashing their economy, and if they stay in it they're going to be continually bailing out the irresponsible PIIGS.

This is not going to end well.

[Citizen Nothing]

So whose side are we on in the next European war?

[kinnath]

Like watching a bear fight your mother-in-law. It doesn't matter who wins, but it can still be entertaining for a while.

[Lost_In_Translation]

Up until one side wins, then either yells at you for not helping or tries to eat you. You only hope the bear wins because because being yelled at is better than being eaten.

[Restoras]

I see what you did there...

[USA]

We got dibbs on Germany this time!

[robc]

Exports and Imports always balance (long run - short run there may be some storage of currency).

That isnt really a problem.

[Supreme Generalissimo Fluffy]

One downside is that they can't fund their current, "austere" government without continued deficit financing.

Basically they would be self-imposing shock therapy on themselves.

They'd have to instantly balance their budget in the face of capital flight and crushing GDP losses.

It's very likely that they'd be better off on the other side (if they resist the temptation to print drachma to try to finance deficits domestically) but while it was going on they'd probably be distinctly unhappy.

Like, Athens on Fire unhappy.

[Old Soldier]

Yep. They could:

1. Stay on the Euro without a dime worth of credit. The harshest Balanced Budget plan ever.

or

2. Leave the Euro and start printing drachmas like crazy. They will be a 21st Century Wiemar Republic.

Either way, Greeks are about to get a lot poorer.

[wareagle]

this is what you get when the Socialist Party is and has been in charge for years. This is what happens when people expect to stay in school till 30, retire at 50, and somehow believe the working time in between can fund the rest.

Greece had no business ever joining the EU but it refuses to do anything to help itself out of a largely self-inflicted situation.

[Tacos mmm...]

this is what you get when the Socialist Party is and has been in charge for years.

Sweden managed to recover from its socialized slump without blowing up a quarter of the world's economies.

[SugarFree]

There is something appealing about a populace rioting against the government that promised them everything, and then failed to deliver the impossible. In the leftist version of democracy, they won't stop punching themselves in the face.

[rts]

Greece is an example where progressives got everything they wanted, good and hard.

Of course, the lesson will be lost on those who need to learn it most.

[teh real o2]

of course comparing any euro left w the american left is little moar but radio entertainment. carry on...

[John]

Yeah their special lefties in America. Here spending and taxing into oblivion doesn't end badly like the rest of the world. Jesus you are stupid Orin.

[teh real o2]

then the collary must be true as well.

>so the euro right, including skinheads & nazis, compares to the american right correct?

[John]

No dipshit. I will let you mull on how one side being similiar to its counterpart doesn't mean every side is.

[teh real o2]

if the collary is NOT true, then ur theorum is NOT true as well.

>damn geometry, how do it work?

[Zeb]

Well, fortunately, what you said is in no sense a corollary to what John said. Or does the non-word "collary" have some meaning I don't understand?

[o2]

In mathematics a corollary typically follows a theorem. Proposition B is a corollary of proposition A if B can readily be deduced from A or is self-evident from its proof,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corollary
_

so if the euro "left" is comparable to the american left, then it follows the euro "right" is similarily comparable to the american right.

>so where in the spectrum of the american right are the euro skinheads & nazis ? take ur time...

[SugarFree]

Well, rts hit that nail right on the head.

[NAL]

The "good and hard" phrasing is priceless. I plan to steal that from time to time. Thanks in advance.

[SugarFree]

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

-H. L. Mencken

[Joe M]

I was going to say that, but I got sidetracked reading a ton of awesome Mencken quotes. I like the one that ends: "On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

[rts]

Krusty's Assistant: George Carlin on line.
Krusty the Clown: Yeah? Lawsuit? Oh, come on. My "Seven Words You Can't Say on TV" bit was entirely different from your "Seven Words You Can't Say on TV" bit. So I'm a thief, am I? Well, EXCUUUUUUUUSE MEEEEEE!
[hangs up]
Krusty the Clown: Give him ten grand.
Krusty's Assistant: Steve Martin on four.
Krusty the Clown: Ten grand.

[NAL]

I just saw that episode again. It's the one where Homer goes to clown college.
Classic!

[Old Soldier]

This isn't the first time that democracy failed spectacularly in Greece.

[Episiarch]

The positive note in all this is that the scumbag politicians in Greece must be sweating bullets right now. Enjoy, assholes; what you have sown you may now reap.

[Supreme Generalissimo Fluffy]

I would have a Martin Borrmann style escape plan in place if I was in any way connected to the political establishment in Greece.

[rts]

I think the referendum *is* the escape plan. "It wasn't me! The people spoke and voted for default and calamity!"

[cynical]

It's great because it:
A) Forces the Greek people to own the catastrophe, which came about in part because of their own greed and foolishness placing unsustainable demands on their government.

B) Forces the EU Technocracy to drop its pretensions of liberalism once again and remind us that it hates democracy and freedom as much as any other dictatorship.

My favorite part of the EU debacle so far.

[Restoras]

^^Oh Yes.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

Why are they sweating bullets? I'm sure they have collected enough graft that they will be able to live quite well in another country when things go tits up.

[wareagle]

no bullets to sweat. The party in charge has had the backing of Greek majorities for some time. When your name is the Socialist Party, it's not like you're sneaking up on anyone.

[Kreel Sarloo]

Actually, the Socialists just took over the government earlier this year.

The Conservatives were the ones who cooked the books to hide the economic flaws.

The Socialists are the one's who brought it to light.

The usual caveat that conservative does not mean the same in Europe as it does here applies.

[Tulpa]

Conservatives here aren't too great on spending issues either.

[Kreel Sarloo]

True.

[BigFire]

Capital flight already happened. Greece is witnessing Atlas Shrugged scenario play out. All that's left are the government worker and looters.

[British Museum]

It's not like their creditors can repo The Parthenon.

We already have the best parts, they can keep the rest.

[SugarFree]

On Seeing the Elgin Marbles

My spirit is too weak?mortality
Weighs heavily on me like unwilling sleep,
And each imagined pinnacle and steep
Of godlike hardship tells me I must die
Like a sick eagle looking at the sky.
Yet 'tis a gentle luxury to weep
That I have not the cloudy winds to keep
Fresh for the opening of the morning's eye.
Such dim-conceived glories of the brain
Bring round the heart an undescribable feud;
So do these wonders a most dizzy pain,
That mingles Grecian grandeur with the rude
Wasting of old time?with a billowy main?
A sun?a shadow of a magnitude.

-John Keats

[Field Marshall Gill]

I had to read that four times before I realized what was missing. There is not a single taint punching reference.

Admit it, one of your co-workers dug this up.

[Matthew]

Actually, what Papandreou is doing is pretty gutsy--basically he doesn't want Greece to lose it's independence w/out actual democratic approval.
The EU hates that.

[Gray Ghost]

Like the banks and TARP, maybe a Greece in receivership is what is necessary to wake everyone else up.

Wasn't it in Bombardiers where an investment banking company tried to take the Dominican Republic into receivership (using the U.S. military) when the Dominicans defaulted on a bond issue?

Total rip-off of Catch-22, but still an entertaining book, I thought.

[BigFire]

Not exactly. A consortium was put together to form a Delaware Holding Company call The New Lincoln Inc. Our protagonists' firm(basically First Boston back in early '90s in San Francisco) would be one of the investment bank trying to float convertible bonds with the aim of buying ALL of the defaulting Dominican government bonds, with the exact mechanism of converting from a 'democratic' government to a LLC to be work out later.

[*]

Asking the Greeks to vote on whether or nor they want to pay back their loans is a lot like telling someone maxed out on their Visa card that it's up to them to decide just much they'd like to pay back.

At least 51% of 99% student loan debtors agree!

[Joshua]

I got into a bind once & my bank asked me that once. I said all of it - it's my debt goddammit. They closed the account & put me on a 0% interest payment plan. Took me 5 years to get that taken care of, but I did it.

[Fan]

The problem with the Greek economy is the Greek people.

- Mark Steyn

[Mike M.]

I don't understand why Germany is so obsessed with keeping this Humpty-Dumpty called the European Union together. It must be about pride and prestige, because it makes no damn sense.

If Greece wants to turn themselves into Zimbabwe, let these freaking losers turn themselves into Zimbabwe. Cut the MF'ers loose already and let the rest of us get on with our damn lives!

[Mad Scientist]

Other than not fleecing German taxpayers, it won't change anything if Greece goes under. The Krugmans of the world will just say Greece would have been fine if only someone had given them more money.

[robc]

Germany spent the entire 20th century trying to unite Europe. They arent going to give up now that they finally succeeded.

[Restoras]

+1

[John]

Yes. There is an old saying by St. Theresa of Lisieu. Prayers answered cause more tears than those that are unanswered. Hitler wanted the place why?

[Restoras]

Well, I think his plan was to fill it up with Germans.

[Drake]

I thought the Italians wanted it? They wanted Ethiopia too, so there's no telling why. Short commute maybe?

[Restoras]

I meant, I think the Germans were planning to fill up Europe with Germans.

[CE]

Ethiopia is where the Ark of the Covenant (and possibly the Holy Grail) ended up. I saw it on the History Channel. On Ancient Aliens.

[Drake]

Was Mussolini looking for it?

[BakedPenguin]

Ethiopia was the nearest non-colonized African country. Greece was an attempted "fuck you" to Hitler after the Germans invaded Yugoslavia. Hitler invaded Yugoslavia and then sent Mussolini a telegram. Mussolini thought he'd return the favor by invading Greece, and then letting Hitler know after Italy conquered Greece. The only problem was that Greece beat Italy's ass back into Albania, and Benito had to beg the Germans for help.

[Gray Ghost]

Actually, Italy invaded Greece (Oct. 28, 1940) before the German invasion of Yugoslavia/Greece (Apr. 6, 1941). A primary reason for the German invasion was to prevent Italy from getting its ass kicked even further by Greece, as well as to punish the Mar. 28, 1941 anti-Axis coup in Yugoslavia.

A result of the invasion was that Barbarossa was set back about 6 weeks. An interesting "what-if" is whether the Wehrmacht could have taken Moscow with those additional 6 weeks. (Not that taking Moscow would have ended the war with the Soviet Union, IMHO, but it could have made things more challenging for the Russians.)

http://www.worldwar-2.net/time.....x-1941.htm

[Gray Ghost]

IMO, the biggest what-if of the European Theater during WW2 is what happens if Hitler gives the finger to Goring, stomps the Dunkirk pocket with Rundstedt's panzers, and then initiates Sea Lion.

I am nowhere near as sanguine as Sandhurst was when they wargamed a similar scenario in the late 80s and came up with the Germans actually landing several infantry divisions in Britain, but still losing. Naturally.

[Old Soldier]

What if Hitler gave Franco the finger and sent a couple of divisions to Gibraltar? The Allies lose all access to the Mediterranean and Rommel takes the Middle East.

[Tulpa]

In that scenario, Franco might have gone over to the Allies' side.

[Gray Ghost]

And while the Wehrmacht certainly could have taken Spain (and Gibraltar), it would have been a giant PITA for the Axis. The term "guerilla" did originate from Napoleon's efforts to pacify Iberia, after all. (Though, as was later witnessed in Yugoslavia, while a guerilla campaign would be severely annoying, by itself it wouldn't defeat a motivated German Army)

The Germans could have certainly invaded Iberia---and closing the Straits would have made life much easier later in North Africa---but why borrow trouble by being at war with yet another country or two outside of your strategic goals?

Nope, knock the U.K. out of the war, which Sea Lion had a so-so chance of accomplishing, and you have the pleasant side effect of removing most of your beef with the U.S. Not to mention getting rid of the U.K. blockade preventing you from trading with the U.S. I've no doubt the U.S. would then look at a subsequent Nazi/Soviet Union war in much the same way as the Reagan Administration viewed the Iran/Iraq War: "It's a shame they both can't lose..."

[Old Soldier]

Really? I think he would have complained loudly - and done nothing as long as the Germans didn't stay on Spanish soil.

The Germans didn't want a fight with Spanish Partisans, and Franco didn't want to die.

[Citizen Nothing]

What if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?

[Lord Humungus]

The Spanish did give the Germans the Division Azul (Blau / 250) to fight against the Soviets. Of course after the Civil War, emotions were still a little high against the communists.

[Supreme Generalissimo Fluffy]

Sea Lion had no hope.

It's just a matter of shipping tonnage.

The Germans could have gotten across, but in 48 hours they would have been fighting with rocks.

The real counterfactual is "What if Hitler just plain old decides to not invade the Soviet Union?"

A Nazi state at its June 1941 borders is essentially impregnable from without if there's no eastern front war.

Stalin was not going to get his shit together enough to attack Hitler himself. What was in it for him? Nothing but the possibility of total disaster.

[Zuo]

Then the war would have been postponed until the Soviets could do it on their terms. It would have been C&C Red Alert, except with Nazi Germany and Team instead of America and Friends on the anti-Soviet side.

[##]

"The Germans could have gotten across, but in 48 hours they would have been fighting with rocks."

I'm not sure they could have gotten across. At the time, Germany had little in the way of landing craft and would likely have needed to capture a port to offload troops.

[Robert]

It would never have come to that. There would've been a negotiated peace ending the entire European war.

[WinningTheFuture_WithSalmon]

I believe that German banks are holding a fair share of Greek debt, or French bank equity and the French banks hold Greek debt.

So there is a public choice story, as well. German banks want to convince German voters that this could be the end of capitalism, when it is just the end of some German banks.

Multiply this times 2 for France and times 10 for other countries on the Mediterranean.

[JD the elder]

They're probably worried about economic refugees from Greece flooding into Germany. They really don't want to have to build a big wall on the border and send the army there so that hordes of illegal immigrants don't come take all the jobs and have a million kids and take advantage of the hardworking German taxpayer.

Man, I wish I could say I was just joking, but I feel uncomfortably like that might be close to the truth...

[Citizen Nothing]

They should sell Greece to Marriott, who could operate it as one big resort. It's quite beautiful and historic, with good food and an interesting culture -- and that's really all it's good for at this point.

[Old Soldier]

Employees at the Marriott are expected to work - that wouldn't go down with the Greeks.

[Citizen Nothing]

Easy -- just import Poles to do the real work. Pay the Greeks just to walk around and be colorful and wave, like Goofy at Disney World, but you don't even need any big fake heads.

[SugarFree]

They'd bring worker in. The Greeks' job you to carry on being Greek for the sake of atmosphere.

[Citizen Nothing]

I think it's time to ask SF to invest in the project.

[Drake]

Special Forces?

Science Fiction?

[SugarFree]

San Francisco

[Drake]

Party pooper.

[SugarFree]

Party pooper.

He does, in fact, live in San Fransico.

[John]

Just make everyone watch Zorba a few times so they know how to act.

[SugarFree]

And a broke Greece would be a sexual paradise for people who are really into women with mustaches and willing to pay.

[Restoras]

If there are Greek versions of Emma Watson, I'm there.

[mr simple]

Yes, they have plenty of young boys.

[SugarFree]

Fool! We have to use all the young boys to pay the amusement park employees. Tight anuses are the closet thing to hard currency the average Greek will accept.

[Tim]

What a terrible stereotype you are perpetrating.

[Matthew]

Rowrrr!

[Supreme Generalissimo Fluffy]

As far as I can tell, Spain and Italy are doomed. So it's all a joke that is just buying time anyway.

Right now the ECB is desperately buying Italian debt to keep the coupons down. But the "horrifying" interest rates that are threatening Italy's ability to be able to afford to roll over its medium term debts are...in the 4's.

If Italy can't survive if the interest rates on its bonds climb above 4, then Italy is already fucked and it's just a matter of time.

Because even if the Europeans pull off a miracle and avoid cratering into a deep recession, what then? As soon as there's any sign of growth at all, rates will rise. Italy's current rates are the low end of what they will be facing even if growth comes back.

Maybe they're hoping that growth will come back and Italy will be able to run huge surpluses or something. But how likely is that?

[Restoras]

But how likely is that?

Absolute Zero

[mad libertarian guy]

I think you mean Absolute Zero.

[John]

All of Southern Europe is doomed no matter what happens with their growth rates because they can't stop spending. Anything they will get they will just spend anyway. It would be like making Nancy Pelosi and Pauli Krugnuts dictator for life. It won't end until they are cutt off.

[Field Marshall Gill]

Europe, and especially the PIIGS, are also not reproducing. As they continue to age, they will continue to have a shrinking workforce accompanied by increased entitlement obligations.

The only positive thing you can really say about America's financial situation right now is "At least we are not as fucked as Europe is".

[JW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5QwKEwo4Bc

[aix42]

lol, thanx for that:

The question was: How can broke economies lend money to other broke economies who haven't got any money because they can't pay back the money the broke economy lent to the other broke economy and shouldn't have lent it to them in the first place because the broke economy can't pay back?

[Lord Humungus]

it's called a printing press.

[NAL]

China. The cause of, and the solution to, all of the West's problems.

[Kreel Sarloo]

The rumors seem to say that any Greeks with any amount of enterprise are leaving as soon as they can.

Since so many of them already have relatives abroad and a second (at least) language (mostly English) is qite common, leaving is probably better than staying.

As an experiment, it's always interesting to see how a parasite fares when the host shakes it off and leaves it behind.

[Galt]

Word

[Old Soldier]

They aren't going to try invading Sicily again, are they?

[Restoras]

That didn't work out so well for them.

[Old Soldier]

They all found full employment in the Syracuse salt mines.

[Kreel Sarloo]

It probably just means more restaurants. 🙂

[No2ConJob]

WHAT EURO CRISIS? The so called Euro debt crisis is a LIE given to us by the Republican LUNATICS banksters and faux-Democrats (ie OBAMA) why is the Euro MUCH MORE VALUABLE than the US Dollar if there is a crisis?

[Citizen Nothing]

Needz mor [BRACKETS).

[newshutz]

and a cute kitten picture

[Tim]

Hercule could put this guy down.

[Drake]

All is well! Remain calm!

[Brett L]

"why is the Euro MUCH MORE VALUABLE than the US Dollar if there is a crisis?"

The Japanese Yen has appreciated significantly against the dollar, but I don't think that's a positive comment on the strength of the Japanese economy.

[Trespassers W]

Of course, because the dollar is worth like a hundred yen, ergo our economy is a hundred times better. QED.

[Zeb]

Only about 70 now, I think.

[Shorter No2ConJob]

We MUST emulate European socialism. Anything less is unfair to the unworking masses.

That is why there is no Euro debt crisis. Because that would ruin our dream of Europe being a worker's paradise.

[NAL]

Have you put any thought into that comment at all? I'm pretty sure most of Europe and Asia are pretty concerned about the European debt crisis as well.
Are they all under the spell of Republican Lunatics?

[Raston Bot]

What % haircut on their debt are the Greeks about to turn down? Are they about to balk at 50% loan forgiveness?

[Restoras]

Only on the privately held debt. Public holders get all their money.

[Keith]

Public holders? Can you explain what you mean by that? I was under the impression that most of the big European banks are essentially guaranteed by their respective governments. Or do particular countries -- not just the banks themselves -- also own various sovereign debt? Or by public, do you mean the EU as a whole, and any sovereign debt they've purchased?

[Restoras]

It's a good question that I don't know the answer to. My understanding is that the agreement revolved around the "private" holders taking a 50% haircut - with no mention of the public holders. So that begs the question - Who is a "public" holder and who is a "private" holder? Is a big national bank a "public" entity or a "private" entity? Certainly any individual will be counted as a "private" entity. I presume the whole thing was structured in a way to protect the banks and screw the constituency - hence the differentiation.

[Keith]

Interesting. Thanks. It's a bit of a conflating line, and I would have to think that if by "private" they mean truly private people with no government backing, the haircut in total won't really be all that large. But this is working on an assumption that the amount of truly, privately held Greek debt is small in comparison to the amount held by governments or those with a government backing, and I don't know how to assess the truth of that.

[lukas]

It's more like 20%, since various kinds of bonds will be exempt. The "haircut" will leave Greece no less broke.

[Raston Bot]

Thanks.

[CoyoteBlue]

Also, as the Dominos fall [Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal], the French quasi-state banks, like SocGen, will fall also. The French will bail them out for good crony-capitalist and liquidity reasons -- then the French lose their AAA+ rating and head down the same debt spiral as Italy.

Of course JPMorgan has insured the fine French bonds so they will be hosed. Liquidity locks up. TIMMEH!goes back on heroin. Benny and Inkjets start printing like mad. Obama starts outlining the book he'll be writing in 2013.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

[Surly Chef]

So what you're saying is Thiel should build his libertopia oil rig sooner than later. I'll be opening a gourmet gentleman's club. Top hat's and monocles are required attire.

[No2ConJob]

The Euro is a incredible, repeat, for you Republican LUNATICS, an incredible, manly , KINGLY 40% MORE VALUABLE than the US Dollar. France, Germany, Britain, all have AAA+ Credit ratings USA only AA+. The Europeans have socialized healthcare (NHS) so their healthcare spending is 9% of GDP not a DEFICIT BUSTING 18% as in the USA, and ALSO have six to eight week PAID VACATION, ONE YEAR MATERNITY LEAVE, and FREE (repeat: FREE) university tuition instead of having to pay a RIDICULOUS $100,000+ in student loans just for a Bachelor's degree.

[Restoras]

D-

Needs more [BRACKETZ]

[Citizen Nothing]

Ah. Finally mastered bold.
[BRAVO}!

[Drake]

By that logic, Japan is the poorest country in the world with an exchange rate of 110 yen to 1 Euro.

[JD the elder]

France, Germany, Britain, all have AAA+ Credit ratings USA only AA+.

This is true, but it lacks context. It's a bit like saying that your top NFL draft pick could run the 40 in 4.25 seconds without mentioning that he also has a pack of paraplegic midgets duct-taped to him for the foreseeable future.

[Zeb]

FREE!

You're not even trying.

[Tym]

Greek power metal with a Swedish girl singing

[Pro Libertate]

The interesting thing about European--and even American--socialism right now is that we're learning how much it's been subsidized by actual producers. But that can only keep happening in a high-growth economy. Otherwise, the crap catches up to you.

[T]

Recession finds what auditors can't (or won't) every single time. If your fundamentals are weak, a down economy will bring the pain.

[Pro Libertate]

It's like a bright light shining on everything.

[WTF]

Otherwise, the crap catches up to you.

As Margaret Thatcher said, eventually, you run out of other people's money.

[Tim]

If the Euro goes down, will the Greeks ask us to back them up?

[Restoras]

I hope so, just so we can tell them to pound sand.

[Tim]

Obama might bend over for them.

[cynical]

I'd be willing to support bombing Belgium to rubble if the EU retaliates against Greece militarily. But economic assistance? Hell no. Rehab time, bitches.

[Zeb]

Just Brussels, plese. I like Antwerp and have a lot of friends there.

[Fred]

If the Euro goes down will the Greeks bend over.

[Waggoneer]

Didn't we already. If I recall the semi-recent scandal with the Federal Reserve showed signifigant support to foreign banks.

[alittlesense]

Back them up? Back them up? Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

[No2ConJob]

WHY IS THE EURO WORTH A MIGHTLY, KINGLY, MANLY 40% MORE THAN THE USD??????

[Restoras]

This shit is just hilarious.

[Citizen Nothing]

And cap locks! The learning curve is steep with this one.

[SugarFree]

Restoras, you misspelled "pathetic."

[Restoras]

You mofo's are making me laugh too hard. Tears are streaming down my cheeks from trying to hold it in.

[WLC]

Um.... because of Nature's Harmonious Time Cube?

[Mike M.]

Because Bernanke has to print money and buy treasuries as fast as Block Yomama is spending it:

Dollar falls on speculation Fed may signal easing.

[Underpants Gnome]

The adjectives are sort of mind-boggling.
+1 for kingly insanity

[DRM]

The ? is worth 40% more than a $ for the same reason a $ is worth 7800% more than a ?, and a ? is worth 16% more than an ?.

[KDN]

Mightly? The fuck does that mean?

[mad libertarian guy]

It mans that this guy can't stand the sight of the Eurozone being shown as the fraud it is, so he has to make up new words to help support it.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

After the EU blows up, I think MLS should make a move to get all the big stars from EPL, La Liga, Serie A, and the Bundesliga playing in the US. Imagine Messi playing for New York, Gay Ronaldo playing for Houston, or Rooney playing for Seattle. That would be awesome.

[Restoras]

What the fuck are you talking about?

[T]

Metric football, i.e. nothing of consequence.

[wayne]

"Metric Football"!!!

If you invented that term then my hat is off to you, sir. I plan to steal it in any case.

[Tulpa]

I've heard "meterball" in the past, which is a better pun, but it never caught on.

[Robert]

He didn't invent it. Canada has played it off & on for decades by that name. 3 downs to advance 10m etc.

[Dr. Sheldon Cooper]

"In Texas we have all kinds of football. Pee-wee football, high school football, college football, professional football, and European football, which many Texans believe is a Communist plot."

[Raston Bot]

soccer. you probably played it when you were 8... if you're a girl.

[Drake]

Is it like kickball?

[SugarFree]

Kickball is footbaseball. And the "T" in T-ball is short for Tard. They had to stop calling it "tardball" because Americans get very upset when you describe things properly.

[Ska]

Without all the scoring.

[Citizen Nothing]

Doesn't Drew Carey own part of the Sounders? Does that make them the libertarian team?

[SugarFree]

"Gay Ronaldo"? Man, that kid got made fun of a lot in school.

[T]

Maybe that's just to distinguish him from "Straight Ronaldo" and "Bi Ronaldo"?

[SugarFree]

Team Ronaldo

Gay Ronaldo
Straight Ronaldo
Bi Ronaldo
Gender Queer Ronaldo
Furry Ronaldo
Plushie Ronaldo
Celibate Half-Gay Ronaldo
Asexual Ronaldo
Intersex Ronaldo
Neuter Ronaldo
? Ronaldo

[John]

You forgot pre-op transgendered Ronaldo. You bigot monster. Why are the pre-op transgendered always forgotten?

[SugarFree]

S/He's on the injury list until the scrotum scar finally closes.

[John]

Abelist.

[Pudgeboy]

...I can't remember laughing this much about any comment before, just keep re-reading it and shitting myself... thanks.

[Field Marshall Gill]

Why must you insist on gendering people?

[mr simple]

Are some of them cis-gendered? That needs to be noted or it's discrimination. Don't push your male-gaze, hetero normative life choices on us.

[SugarFree]

Yes
Yes
No
No
Yes, sort of.
Non-applicable
No
Non-applicable
Non-applicable
Non-applicable
Who the fuck knows?

[Montani Semper Liberi]

Portuguese Ronaldo. I prefer to call him Gay Ronaldo because he wears shit like this and to differentiate him from the far superior Brazilian Ronaldo.

[Apatheist]

And yet it was the Brazilian Ronaldo who was caught with a bunch of ladyboys and the Portugese one has dated some of the hottest women in the world. Not that I like that metrosexual fucker.

[John]

IF that guy is guy it is the biggest waste since Rock Hudson. I want to be a Brazilian soccer star in my next life.

[Tym]

More music, this from Italy, enjoy.

[No2ConJob]

Austrian Economics?? YES! REAL Austrian Economics:

After all, 1st Austria has near FULL Employment at about 4.5%, here:
http://www.indexmundi.com/aust....._rate.html

Compare this to unemployment rate of 9.5% in US as reported by the Government, although the real unemployment rates in US are actually closer to 20%.

So what is Austria doing different than US?

1- They have universal nationalized (socialized) health care
2- They have MUCH MORE generous unemployment benefits than in US
3- They have MUCH higher taxes on someone making more than 250K than in US
4- They have MUCH more extensive regulation and a FAR more unionized workforce than the US.
5- Their workers by law get 8 Weeks paid vacation per year, compared to a measly 1 or 2 weeks in US if that.
6- They have Universal child care.
7- They do not waste their People's Taxes on Unnecessary Wars
8- They do not waste their People's Taxes on a Gargantuan Military
etc. etc.

ALL of which policies Republicans and the right-wing Media in US call "Socialism.." or oppose.

[Episiarch]

EUROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Joe M]

Nice.

[Restoras]

Holy Shit it's a fucking paradise!

If Austria is so fucking rich then maybe it should bailout the idiot Greeks.

[Pro Libertate]

Say, just who does provide Europe with military protection? And why would anyone do that? Could it be that Europe can't be trusted with a bunch of militarized members?

[Restoras]

You know what I really hate but Europe? Twice, Twice! in the last 100 years the descendents of Europeans have had to leave thier homes in North America and other parts of the world to go back and sort the stupid fucking Euro's shit out for them. We left for a reason, I say we stay gone the next time those idiots need help from thier uncouth cousins from afar.

[Old Soldier]

#7 and 8 are recent developments.

[Beloved Rev. Blue Moon]

If I recall correctly, they had a corporal who did 7 & 8...

[WinningTheFuture_WithSalmon]

You know who else was an Austrian?...

[NAL]

Arnold Schwarzeneggar?

[Red Rocks Rockin]

Not even Austria will escape the Greekopocalypse, you silly sperglord.

[WTF]

So what is Austria doing different than US?

Produce failed painters who try to take over Europe and exterminate the jews?

[Pro Libertate]

I once posted something about Austria's contributions to the world when ranting about some monkey they were mistreating:

* Tasty pastries
* Waltzes
* Neat cafes
* World-class skiing
* California
* Home of the von Trapps
* The Third Man
* Not being the home of Adolf Hitler

[H man]

8- They do not waste their People's Taxes on a Gargantuan Military

Your welcome. Now where the frak is our tribute. You know the Roman republic would have never sit still for this. All the empire and none of the benefits.

[JD the elder]

This is actually a rare No2ConJob statement worth analyzing. Firstly, I notice that Austria's GDP per capita is lower than the US's by just about every accounting, which kind of queers the pitch, as they say. Also, there's this bit...

For many years, the government and its state-owned industries conglomerate played a very important role in the Austrian economy. However, starting in the early 1990s, the group was broken apart, state-owned firms started to operate largely as private businesses, and a great number of these firms were wholly or partially privatized. Although the government's privatization work in past years has been very successful, it still operates some firms, state monopolies, utilities, and services. The new government has presented an ambitious privatization program, which, if implemented, will considerably reduce government participation in the economy.

Oh well, I thought it might be worth analyzing.

[Restoras]

Fuck Europe.

[Fist of Etiquette]

You know who else sent correspondences from Germany?

[RyanXXX]

Eva Braun to Lord Bath?

[kinnath]

The run up to the Euro was far more complex than just issuing a new currency: tax laws, duty laws, banking laws, exchange laws, so on and so forth.

You can't just say I quit or throw the bums out if you're Germany or France.

[John]

Yup. they are fucked. That is why the Euroskeptics have been proven so right. They said it was a terrible idea and once you got in it would be impossible to get out and you would be tied together for life with some pretty irresponsible parties. But Noo the transnational socialist left knew better.

[kinnath]

Yes they are. The Eurozone will collapse before they can untangle themselves.

[kinnath]

Till death do us part.

[Zeb]

Yeah, I don't know what the fuck they were thinking. The UK must be pretty damn pleased with itself right now for keeping the Pound.
The Euro probably would have been fine if it were limited to maybe France, Germany, BeNeLux and maybe a few others (I probably would have said Spain and Italy a few years ago).

[Antifederalists]

They said it was a terrible idea and once you got in it would be impossible to get out and you would be tied together for life with some pretty irresponsible parties.

Ahem.

[Tim]

Turning to German leadership in a time of economic crisis doesn't seem like such a good idea.

[Warty]

Your classical Greek word of the day: ????, or aealo. It means catastrophe.

[Pro Libertate]

Say, how did you get forbidden Greek letters in? Did you use code?

[Warty]

Nope. I sacrificed a kitty to the spam filter, and it deigned to accept my sacrifice.

[Restoras]

Yeah I want to know too.

[HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN]

[NO2CONJOB SAYS]

WHAT EURO CRISIS?

[TRIATHLON REPLYS]

Now, you've got to be kidding Us, how can We even begin? In case you haven't been noticing the [EU] European Union is on the verge of collapse, it can no longer county on the support of the American-Israeli Military Industrial Complex the [EMPIRE] because the [EMPIRE] itself is bankrupt, Morally, Fiscally, and Intellectually, kaput! Gone. Zip [BANKRUPT].

Now, whom does the [EU] European Union rely on for the past [50] Fifty Years to support its bloated welfare state? The [EMPIRE], through [EMPIRE] military, [EMPIRE] fiscal, and [EMPIRE] intellectual and moral support, without the [EMPIRE] the [EU] European Union is nothing, can be nothing, and will come to nothing!

As to the [$$$USD$$$] being weak, this is because the [FED] Federal Reserve under Ben Bernake keeps printing too many [$$$USD$$$], the more [$$$USD$$$] the less valuable the [$$$USD$$$], go watch the [TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES from Star Trek [The Original Series], you will see what We mean, this is what the [FED] Federal Reserve and the [CHAIRMAN] Ben Bernake is doing.

Now, go away, sit down, silly boy, and cower in your colossal ignorance before Us, for We are

HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN

[John]

Go Herc Go!!

[Restoras]

^^Now that is beautiful.

[Warty]

HERC! HERC! HERC! HERC! HERC! HERC!

We love you, Herc.

[Citizen Nothing]

Bravo. Well done, indeed.

[Citizen Nothing]

(Do I detect a faint whiff of Urkobold?)

[KDN]

If this is a spoof, it's the best goddamn spoof ever. Brackets, proper third person reference, etc. Spot on.

Hercule seems to be learning more and more as he hangs out here. I'm scared.

[Ska]

Dude, please do some replies to WI as well.

[CE]

Comment Hall of Fame material.

[Terr]

Oh shit! Was that the real Herc???

[teh real o2]

"As to the [$$$USD$$$] being weak, this is because the [FED] Federal Reserve under Ben Bernake keeps printing too many [$$$USD$$$]..."
_

M2 is stable , up ~3% FY10-11.

>moar false RW memes

[CoyoteBlue]

The HERC [SPITS]on your feeble attacks.

Welcome back you [GLORIOUS] crazy bastard. I want to have your [BABY].
(and I don't even have a uterus)

[teh real o2]

i dont know what i waz thinkin. pls forgive...plus alms n stuff...nice stuff

[T]

Yay! [BRACKETS]!

[Lord Humungus]

take note, No2ConJob, this is how you troll.

[goneGalt]

Best.Troll.Ever.[PINNACLE]

[RyanXXX]

Herc is the "Troll 2" of H&R trolls

[0x90]

"Asking the Greeks to vote on whether or nor they want to pay back their loans is a lot like telling someone whose father maxed out on their his Visa card that it's up to them his family to decide just much they'd like to pay back."
____________________________

"Asking the Greeks to vote on whether or nor they want to pay back their loans is a lot like telling someone whose employer maxed out on their Visa card borrowed the company into insolvency that it's up to them the employees to decide just much they'd like to pay back."
____________________________

[...]

[cynical]

While I take your point, the Greek government was doing the will of Greek voters -- give me welfare or an easy, well-paying job; don't ask me to pay anything in taxes for it. Unsustainable debt was a given. At least in the U.S., the "spend more" and "tax less" forces tend to be two distinct groups.

[0x90]

In either case (i.e. that it was or was not 'doing the will of the voters', as though one can refer to 'the voters' en bloc), I see no problem with Papandreou's gambit. As for me, it is most definitely not the case that the government I find myself under does my will, in any shape, manner, or form, and I can definitely sympathize with any Greek who would feel the same. Seeing that governments are elected by minority (~22% of the population in the case of Obama, for instance), it seems to me that between about 22% and 78% of the people might agree with such a sentiment at any given time, provided they were made aware that, in losing, they were in fact a member of a vast super majority, composed of no- and non-voters.

[squishua]

Government does the will of the voters? Wow, never thought I'd read that here.

[Raston Bot]

Since a similar referendum failed (twice!) in Iceland, kudos to Pap for setting the supras up for another FU moment.

[CE]

This isn't a "sovereign debt crisis" at all. It's an "uh-oh, some stupid banks loaned money to spendthrift governments and now they want the taxpayers to bail them out for their stupid loans".

Greece (and Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, etc.) can easily escape their sovereign debt problem by defaulting.

And why shouldn't the Greek people get to vote on it? They invented democracy, didn't they? I wish we had gotten to vote on the TARP bailouts.

[MP]

The issue is the mistaken impression that the Greek people have that defaulting will lead to economic security.

It's based on the same mistaken impression that socialism will lead to economic security.

I think most around these parts want them to default. The sooner they finish fucking themselves, the better.

[Raston Bot]

A national referendum on TARP? You obviously didn't get the memo that all western countries are best ran by technocrats. In Europe's case, technocrats living in Brussels who are exempt from national taxation. That democracy stuff is for the arabs and their spring.

[Pudgeboy]

There was a referendum in the U.S.... it was called Obama.

[Zeb]

And then there was another one two years later which was anything but.

[R]

2008 was NOT a referendum on TARP. Both Obama and McShitstain were both all for it, so there wasn't any real way for voters to show their displeasure.

2010, on the other hand, was all about TARP and the other bailouts, and the pro-bailout fucks generally got savaged.

[Supreme Generalissimo Fluffy]

Greece (and Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, etc.) can easily escape their sovereign debt problem by defaulting.

No, they can't.

Because if they default, they still have to pay their government employees the next day. And their public sector is gigantic relative to the real economy - that's the whole problem.

If they want to get bailed out, they have to fire government employees. If they default, they'll get no more credit, and they'll have to fire government employees. But the public in Greece doesn't want them to fire any government employees.

The problem with the referendum is that the Greeks aren't really voting on whether to bail out banks. That's what the Germans are voting on, not the Greeks. The Greeks are voting on "Should we fire some government employees in order to get new sources of additional credit, or should we refuse to fire government employees and just hope that our fairy godmother will somehow save us instead?"

[Isaac Bartram]

At least in the U.S., the "spend more" and "tax less" forces tend to be two distinct groups.

I'd find that pretty hard to say after eight years of George W Bush (six of them with Republican majorities in Congress).

The spending of those years might seem restrained today but those were some record breaking years in terms of deficits.

[Zuo]

*4 years. 2002-2006.

California is the classic example of the country that likes to spend more and tax less. Hey everybody's happy until the bill collectors come.

[juris imprudent]

I got your Trojan Horse, and even that wasn't the waste of money that the Greek govt is.

[Zuo]

Tell the Greeks to become a laissez-faire paradise, or else the Turks will gambol on through and make them their bitches. Win/win.

[gr]

It 's obvious what kind of What is Fascist you are.
Get a life, the world has moved forward.

[Mr. Mark]

HEY!!!!!
Hey, hey, hey, hey!!!!

If Greece won't take it, I'm here to help!

[carla]

Trojan horse, so looks like

[gr]

Ronald Bailey,
You are an idiot.
Germans own trillions regarding second world war.
They are already finished.
The time is near.
So live Greeks alone