Nick Gillespie Talks Debt Limit, Legalizing Drugs, Ending Wars, & More on Real Time with Bill Maher

I was on HBO's Real Time with Bill Maher last Friday, July 22.

Also on the panel were Braddock (Pa.) Mayor John Fetterman, Democratic National Committee member Donna Brazile, and actor John Turturro.

The topics included the debt-ceiling debate; libertarians vs. conservatives; the legalization of drugs, online poker, and prostitution; Michelle Bachmann's husband and gay rights; entitlement spending; military interventionism and compulsory service; immigration reform; and whether socialism provided a model for shared sacrifice.

The conversation is lively and heated throughout. Among the memorable moments: when Fetterman asks me if I want "to take it outside"; when I suggest Maher give up his show if he's serious about reducing his carbon footprint; and whether having a military draft would have precluded the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

About 30 minutes.

Go to the Real Time site for more information about Bill Maher and clips from recent shows.

This appearance generated more response than I've gotten in many years, a testament to the reach of Real Time and, even more so, the intensity of its audience. I picked up about 500 Twitter followers and wonderful new insults such as the following:

Hey, @nickgillespie just bc you look like the Fonze with Aids doesn't mean you can ramble on like a fag

U stupid undercover Tea bagging fuck!

#SuperDouche @nickgillespie on Real Time with Bill Maher wearing his fake Ed Hardy shirt and Pimp jacket. What a tool!

@nickgillespie What was it like to get your ass pounded by Donna Brazile and Mayor Fetterman? For a PhD you're awfully ignorant and wrong. 

Thx @nickgillespie for showing us that Libertarians can interrupt, roll eyes, and fling racist remarks W/O gov't intervention.

The last criticism - about interrupting - is one I take seriously and for which I should apologize (my colleagues can commiserate with the fellow panelists).

The responses tended to balance out, split between hate and love. To wit:

@nickgillespie Great job representing us on a show that never has Libertarians. Thanks for showing the hypocracy

Don't agree with him about a lot, but kind of have an intellectual crush on @nickgillespieafter seeing him on @billmaher.

@nickgillespie You were brilliant on the Bill Maher Attempts to be Relevant Show

@nickgillespie never heard of you until last night, now you are my hero!

@Nickgillespie made 3 liberal heads explode on bill maher's show last night. 

However the show went, afterwards I had nice conversations with both John Fetterman (whose work in Braddock is extremely interesting and worth looking at) and Donna Brazile (who agreed that there's a lot of common ground, especially on issues such as the drug war, the role of the military, and gay rights, between liberals and libertarians). I've been a longtime watcher of Real Time (as I was of its predecessor, Politically Incorrect) and while I rarely agree with much of what's said on the show, I think it's a fun and informative - and certainly one-of-a-kind - contribution to political and media discourse.

Back in 1997, Brian Doherty and I interviewed Bill Maher for Reason. Read it here.

Comments

[Feces-Flinging Chimp]

Love the insults. They rival H&R commentary in wit and erudition.

[Pro Libertate]

You should go on with Penn Jillette for a libertarian smackdown. After all, Maher claims to be a "libertarian."

If that ever happens, though, he should wear a leather jacket, and you should wear a three-piece suit.

[Brandybuck]

Nick can swing his arms in circles like Penn, and Penn can move his back and forth like Nick. That would really blow Maher's mind.

[Fist of Etiquette]

...Donna Brazile (who agreed that there's a lot of common ground, especially on issues such as the drug war, the role of the military, and gay rights, between liberals and libertarians).

But the rest of the real estate seems pretty unbridgeable.

[Tulpa]

Other than "gay rights" (the frontiers of which -- gay marriage and DADT -- are not even a settled question among libertarians themselves) there is no real agreement on the other two. Liberals support using the military for "humanitarian missions" and have done diddly squat on the drug war in practice.

[Mike M.]

Yeah, the last few months ought to have finally put to rest once and for all the dishonest myth that liberals are "anti-war".

There is a legitimate anti-war group in America, but it represents a very small subset of the liberal population as a whole.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I don't know where to separate honest progressives/liberals from establishment Democrats.

[SugarFree]

As an electoral class, you really can't. Either they don't vote (which I bet would be a small percentage of the politically charged self-described progressives) or vote along the party line in order to vote against Republicans. They learned the Nader lesson very, very well.

[Fist of Etiquette]

But outside of that. Beyond even a seemingly resolute love of state solutions to any conceivable problem (or non-problem), what thinking is common to them? What solutions would they, as a group, want as policy if they had their druthers, sans any pragmatic legislative compromising. Not anti-war, not anti-prohibition. What is there?

[John Thacker]

Beyond even a seemingly resolute love of state solutions to any conceivable problem (or non-problem), what thinking is common to them?

But this is the point. It's a coalition. The point is, "We know you don't care about or even dislike the government doing B, C, and D, but join our team and even though we'll do B, C, and D, we'll also have the government do A, which is your highest priority. Go Team!"

Electoral coalitions don't have to be logically consistent, whether they're internal to one party or in a multiparty system.

[SugarFree]

Other than a vague urge toward fairness--the definition of which is infinitely malleable--I'm not sure they have a common belief beyond anti- Republican/TeaParty/libertarian animus.

I'm soaked in liberalism, particularly secular liberalism. I'm drowning in it really. When pressed, they don't ever make it down to any sort of common moral core for their beliefs. Even the ones that say they are socialists and communists can't explain what they believe, much less why they believe it.

Socons irritate the shit out of me, but at least there's an appeal to tradition and God way down there at the bottom. The modern liberal stripped downed is a squalling toddler beating its fists and gone red in the face, demanding to know why his box of crayons have two less than the kid next to him and ready to run beaming into the arms of anyone who promises to fix that injustice.

[Dagny T.]

Well said. When I have made the mistake of talking politics with my liberal friends, if they're honest enough to answer questions about why they believe what they believe, you might dig up some crazy "corporashuns iz bad becuz teh advertizing controls our mindz." But even that is rare.

If you can call utter economic ignorance and failure to comprehend individual choice an ideology, the liberals have one. And I can hardly think of one for which I have more disdain.

[JW]

The modern liberal stripped downed is a squalling toddler beating its fists and gone red in the face, demanding to know why his box of crayons have two less than the kid next to him and ready to run beaming into the arms of anyone who promises to fix that injustice.

Are you implying that there isn't a right to art supplies? Because if you are, then we should take it outside RIGHT NOW.

[SugarFree]

Something as important as juice boxes cannot be left to the free market.

[JW]

We need government mandated nap intervals! And how are children supposed to safely play doctor without an official policy promulgated by the FDA?

The risk of cooties is too high! If this saves even one child...

[SugarFree]

Mandatory cooties vaccine.

[JW]

And catch the autism? What kind of sick monster are you?

[Tulpa]

They learned the Nader lesson very, very well.

What is that lesson? That if you vote for Nader someone who governs nearly identically to Obama is going to win?

[skr]

I laugh every time I hear the Dems are anti-war and ask people to look up every major war the US has been in during the last century and the party of the President at the time and just count off the Dems versus the Reps.

[Tulpa]

Donna Brazile (who agreed that there's a lot of common ground, especially on issues such as the drug war, the role of the military, and gay rights, between liberals not in public office and libertarians)

ftfy

[BakedPenguin]

Beat me to it.

[rather]

didn't know AIDS made you fat

[rather]

didn't know AIDS made you fat

[Old Mexican]

I didn't know it made you click the submit button twice.

[rather]

lol

[Old Mexican]

Donna Brazile (who agreed that there's a lot of common ground, especially on issues such as the drug war, the role of the military, and gay rights, between liberals and libertarians).

I've heard that woman many times, and she is just leading you on, Nick. Liberals care LITTLE about individual rights, which is why they pay lip service to issues of personal choice and individual freedoms.

"The Noble Quran chapter 5 verse 51 reads: 'O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.'"

Liberals like Ms. Brazile follow the same advice: use subterfuge, deception, make friends of your true foes in order to crush them later.

Liberals are not our friends. They're unrepentant eleuterophobes - 100 million dead can't be wrong.

[John Thacker]

Many liberals care at least at a little about that, some care quite a lot.

But, they don't care enough about them to be willing to sacrifice other things, like stimulus spending on high speed rail and infrastructure, say, or unionization, etc.

[Tulpa]

As Machiavelli said, ultimately people are more apt to hate those who take away things that they consider theirs, than they are to hate those who kill and mistreat other people.

[The Pips]

My impression is that some are in favor of ending the drug war, but they don't care enough to do squat about it. I have a number of liberal friends on my facebook page and I don't recall one of them ever posting a link to an article about how ridiculous the drug war is, not one, whereas I'm constantly seeing links to articles about GM foods, the economy, the tea party, etc. They just don't take it seriously at all. You'll never see them march about it - they'd sooner march to ban transfats.

[adam]

when given a chance to vote on it in the last election, many declined to support ending the drug war, at least with regards to pot in california...and that included large numbers of people who consume it!

[Audrey the Liberal]

"Liberals are not our friends." Neither are conservatives.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I can say without hyperbole that Real Time with Bill Maher in one of the most unwatchable shows in the entire history of the universe, owed completely to the title character. Maher projects an unwarranted sense of smug superiority. Having said that, I will attempt to watch this.

[free2booze]

It's like Nick knew what Donna and Bill were going to say, before the words even left their mouths. It's almost as if Nick had managed to get his hands on some magical list of points, that Donna and Bill would revert to when ever they had to talk about a subject.

[Jeff]

Yeah, that was pretty strange. It's almost like Democrats always say the same shit or something.

[Joe M]

John Fetterman (whose work in Braddock is extremely interesting and worth looking at)

Did you just say that to prevent him from hunting you down and beating your ass for embarrassing him on TV?

[sage]

Are you kidding? He probably gets out of breath hunting down his next meal.

[randolph]

^ HA!

[free2booze]

When Nick proposes ending ObamaCare, eliminating DHS, and getting rid of the wars, Brazile looked at Nick like he had a giant dick growing out of his forehead.

Apparently, this made sense to her, until her DNC programming kicked back in, and pointed the blame back to where it rightfully belongs - the evil, filthy, baby eating, grandma burning rich.

[Tulpa]

Excluding of course rich politicians, rich bureaucrats, and rich union members. Because unlike those filthy exploitative capitalists, those people earned their wealth.

[Danno]

Next week I'm attending a party at the Playboy mansion and might bump into Bill Maher (based on the photos I've seen, he practically lives there). Any suggestions on what I should say to him if I get the chance?

[Pro Libertate]

Treat him exactly the same way Rick James treated Charlie Murphy.

[Danno]

I should produce a record for him? Not sure what that means.

[Pro Libertate]

You must watch this, bitch.

[Danno]

Blocked by my employer's web filters...

[Ska]

It means get all sorts of coked up and bitchsmack him.

[Mongo]

Why are you talking to men at the Playboy Mansion?

[Danno]

Since I'm no one, I assume the bunnies will be safely cordoned off in a separate area and I'll be stuck mingling with D-listers like Verne Troyer and Bill Maher. And this could be my only chance to smack him down.

[Pro Libertate]

Just push your way past the cordon, exclaiming, "I'm Rick James, bitch!"

[Danno]

Not sure they'll buy it since I'm Caucasian...and still alive.

[Pro Libertate]

They'll either assume you're someone important by your attitude, or they'll get the joke and let you in.

[Mongo]

Nice one, spoof Mongo!

[Rick James]

Darkness!!!

[Pro Libertate]

Real Rick James: See, I never just did things just to do them. Come on, what am I gonna do? Just all of a sudden jump up and grind my feet on somebody's couch like it's something to do? Come on. I got a little more sense then that.
[pause]
Real Rick James: Yeah, I remember grinding my feet on Eddie's couch.

[Paul]

Cocaine's a helluva drug.

[Paul]

Charlie Rangel!

[Paul]

I should produce a record for him? Not sure what that means.

Punch him in the forehead with your "Unity" ring, leaving the imprint for all to see.

Blocked by my employer's web filters...

Make friends with your network admin.

[skr]

or set up a proxy server at home

[Red Rocks Rockin]

At the very least, please ask him to stop doing that slicked-back hair style. It makes him look like the mugshot of a child molestor.

[Mango Punch]

2 minutes in and Nick is on a roll! "They took my papers, I feel like a Mexican up here"

[Achtung Coma Baby]

God, I'd rather have a transcript of the show than to actually watch it all the way through. That way I can dwell on only the things Nick said and leave Bill and the black lesbian out of it.

[Rock Action]

In all seriousness, I was going to say that it didn't make any sense, after clicking on Tulpa's links, why reason.com and Fetterman wouldn't have a productive conversation. I was actually going to suggest Jesse Walker and Fetterman. Perhaps an interview -- and it doesn't have to be gently nudging him towards libertarianism or debating him about it, which I've noticed the interviews often do -- would be relevant and interesting. I'd read it. It's interesting to see what motivates someone to undertake what he's undertaking, what he sees from the people in the town, and what his plans for it are, from the overarching to the day-to-day stuff. For example, it was said that the town had lots of cheap real estate, but from what I've read and seen, vacated and neglected buildings can often be unsound. So how does his town determine that, what are the administrative logistics (Are there building contractors or inspectors around? Is there an agency that oversees it?), what do they find, and at what point in the anarchist scale (for lack of a better term) do they balance public safety inspections and renting/squatting?

Stuff like that would be a good read.

[Ska]

I can't watch it; I like Turturro in movies too much to make me squirm once I listen to him talk politics.

Pure assumption on my part but I'm willing to live by my preconception that actors have the shittiest political theories.

[Matt Damon]

Read Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United State. That book will fucking knock you on your ass.

[Teddy KGB]

Yeah, well, I still have your money from the last time I stick it in you!

[George Clooney]

Stick who in the what, now?

[skr]

dont do it

[Michael Richards]

Shut up! Fifty years ago we'd have you upside down with a fucking fork up your ass!

[George Clooney]

I don't care. Charlton Heston is the head of the National Rifle Association; he deserves whatever anyone says about him.

[sage]

Spoiler: he wants his taxes raised, but is apparently unable to pay more unless he and everyone else is forced to. Fuck him in the neck.

[JW]

The blank look that Turturro gives at that suggestion is priceless.

"You want me to freely and voluntarily give money to the gummint, without coercion? What kind of wing-nut are you?"

[k2000k]

Statists have been conditioned to the feeling of getting rammed as being their patriotic duty to their fellow man. They simply cannot fathom a system that helps the downtrodden that doesn't have a mandatory ass raping by the government.

[Tulpa]

There's actually some logic to this. If one wealthy person volunteers to pay extra taxes, the effect will be minimal. You need a lot of them to do it to actually cut into the deficit.

Of course, it's more likely Tuturro is being a hypocrite, but a logical case could be made.

[Paul]

There's actually some logic to this. If one wealthy person volunteers to pay extra taxes, the effect will be minimal. You need a lot of them to do it to actually cut into the deficit.

I have it on good authority that the wealthy want to pay more, as a group.

So done and done.

[JW]

If one wealthy person volunteers to pay extra taxes, the effect will be minimal.

Put your money where your big, fat, reality-based mouth is.

If your moral code requires popularity in order to be validated, perhaps you should look elsewhere for bedrock principles.

[Nash]

Man that was really difficult to watch. You had 3 statists harping on "tax the rich" as if that would magically solve the problem and Nick was all alone talking about legitimate points of the spending problem. I can only imagine how frustrating that was for Nick.

[free2booze]

I feel your pain Nash. The rest of the panel was plugged into the DNC collective, and were unable to generate a single argument that required any original thought.

[Symbiant Collective]

MY NAME IS TANIA MAY I CLEAN YOUR CARPET?

[Rick James]

More taxes = More prosperity

Cocaine is a hell of a drug!

[Jeff P]

But did you fuck with de Jesus?

[free2booze]

Nick was kicking so much ass, that Bill had to bring in reinforcements. In the end, Nick was up against five leftist douche bags, and still owned the show.

[Dylboz]

^^^^^

This.

[Ken Shultz]

John Fetterman: "I'm the mayor of the poorest town in Pennsylvania."

Nick Gillespie: "Well you must be very proud."

Ken Shultz: *LOLs*

[Jeff]

I like John Turturro as an actor, but fuck, his response to the Norway deal was so pretentious. "I think we're a young nation, but they're older and wiser and live with the idea of death." As if today's Norwegians are grim, ancient vikings instead of a bunch of socialist pussies who are so afraid of guns that even their cops don't have free access to them so they could, you know, stop a dude who's in the process of shooting dozens of people.

[GeneralAntilles]

Maher cracks me up.

Gillespie: "I'm not a Republican, I'm not a Democrat."

Maher: "Yeah you are."

WTF does that even mean? And how the hell does Maher think he's qualified to decide what other people's affiliations. What a smug asshole.

[iamtheeviltwin]

I commend Nick for not just getting up and walking out at that point in the show.

I have a hard time talking with someone who is not going to have a legitimate discussion and basically calls me a liar to my face.

[GeneralAntilles]

Somebody needs to con Maher into doing a sketch as the Hogwarts Sorting Hat.

Harry: "I'm not a Slytherin!"

Maher The Sorting Hat: "Yeah you are."

[k2000k]

Maher had to discredit him somehow, and the only way he could was insinutate that he is a closet republican. Never mind the copious amount of footage of Nick trashing ill-concieved republican policy. I mean this is the Real Time Audience we are talking about, I highly doubt they would ever visit Reason.com or pick up a newspaper that didn't come from LA, New York, Seattle, San Francisco, or Boston. He knew he could make that insinuation and never be called out for what he was doing by his audience or other panelists.

[jv]

Our only hope: Reason *sort of* comes from Los Angeles!

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Stereotypes

Turturro = touchy-feely liberal
Brazile = Democratic politician
Fetterman = In over his head

[Stephan]

Nice job, Nick. But that show is unwatchable. And Maher is an idiot.

[Old Soldier]

The audience is fucking retarded.

[Ken Shultz]

Nick's not just preachin' to the choir.

If all he did was give his message to us, he wouldn't be doin' his job.

He's gettin' the message out to people who would never hear the libertarian message otherwise except through Progressive filters--and Nick's doin' an amazing job of getting the message out to people who wouldn't hear it otherwise.

That's why we should be nicer to people who wander in around here.

[Tulpa]

sofa king we Todd did?

[Audrey the Liberal]

Dude, it's "sofa king we Todd Ed".

[Tulpa]

That's not how I heard it.

[GrizzlyAdam]

"I'm the Mayor of the poorest town in PA."

"You must be very proud."

"Wanna take this outside!?"

Classic. Well done Nick.

[Tulpa]

Meh, that was the low point from my POV. Kind of catty of Nick to say it that way, though I understand why he'd be in full defensive mode in a setup like that (5 liberals vs one non-liberal? come on)

[PR]

I always feel like I'm watching Alan Ladd in Shane with all the careful stagecrafting.

[Res Publica Americana]

What a bunch of disingenuous assholes. Bill Maher is fucking infuriating, and Nick's a more patient man than I am.

[k2000k]

I really wish one day a group of libertarians could be organized to go sit in on the show and everytime Maher tried to slide in the stupid, or just be a smug dumbfuck a chorus of boos would errupt from the audience. Imagine the mindfuck on tha guy's ego. I swear he would have a mental break down then and there.

[The Pips]

What we need is a libertarian counterpart to that show, that's on a big network or cable channel. ReasonTv is small potatoes and doesn't attract too many non-libertarians. Red-Eye comes close but is a little too glib for my taste and the emphasis there is on the humor vs. the ideas, whereas Realtime peppers in the humor into the ideas(sic). I don't like the ideas or the panelists much in Real Time but I like the format better than Red Eye (which is also a little too Republicanish for my taste).

[Drax the Destroyer]

God-fucking dammit, this is hard to watch.

[Vines_N_Cattle]

Of course they're not anti war, Gigantor the Mayor proposes violence and the crowd erupts in cheers. That's all I need to know.

[Tulpa]

How do you know he was proposing violence? Maybe he wanted to talk to Nick in private about how bad that comment made him feel and how hurt he was inside.

He has a Harvard degree, dammit.

[Mainer]

Gene Hackman to Peter Boyle:

"I'm sorry , I didn't realize you're a mute...an incredibly large mute."

[jcrue]

Watched the whole thing and thought it quite insensitive of you Nick to make those people look so stupid. Great job.

[Mainer]

The best bit was Maher's reaction when Nick asked him if he (Maher) would give up his cars or his show to reduce his carbon footprint. Maher was gob smacked, speechless and twitching.

Nick, it's not fair to have a battle of wits with a man who's unarmed.

[Joshua Corning]

Hey, @nickgillespie just bc you look like the Fonze with Aids doesn't mean you can ramble on like a fag

U stupid undercover Tea bagging fuck!

Shrike is on twitter now?

[GILMORE]

Having never twittered (tweeted? Twit'd?)... are things addressed to people identifiable? I mean, at least providing the person twatted with opportunity to reply/locate said anonypussy?

Meaning, is it possible to respond to said comment, or is just a wall on which people can piss and run away?

Not that I think Nick would/should retort... not at all... just curious how it works.

I do think its odd that an (assumedly) 'democratic', progressive commenter would choose to 'insult' Nick by a) comparing him to Fonzie (who as we all know was a hardcore neocon conservative), and thinks leather jackets are 'uncool' or whatever, and b) calling him 'fag'...as though being gay is a pernicious and horrible thing people should be ashamed of.

Piss off a liberal, and what do they do? Hate you for being 'too hip' and 'too tolerant'?? I thought that was the sort of thing they prided *themselves* on. Oh, but when someone else does it, it's *baaad*.

Did democrats ever really have any cool-cred? I don't think so. I think ever since the hippies they've always assumed they owned the hip-mantle, and everyone else was a button-down christian tight-ass or something.

I still love that comment by Moe Tucker: To be honest, I never paid attention to what the hell was going on. My always voting Democrat was the result of that.

[Audrey the Liberal]

I frankly don't get the hatred some people have for tea-bagging. I consider licking and sucking a mans testicles to be a perfectly legitimize pass-time.

[GILMORE]

And wait... Fetterman is a mayor? He looks like a bouncer @ a gay biker bar.

[GILMORE]

Or the guy from God Of War

[GILMORE]

....after a long bout of depression and addiction to buckets of KFC

[GILMORE]

@5:30

Nick: "We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem"

Maher: "That tells me you are a republican!!"

(applause)

[look of exasperation on Nick's face]

Fucking nitwits cannot compute anything but Team Red / Team Blue.

It reminds me of the character Ruprect the Monkey Boy from Dirty Rotten Scoundrels

= "Mother!!"..... "Not mother?"

You say, "too much spending", and they go, "Aha!"... as though even the idea of such a thing is insane.

[skr]

I was hoping for Nick to argue that we even had the spending problem with Carter's astronomical marginal tax rate thus disproving the taxes = revenue argument.

[GILMORE]

Im waiting for her to start defending the money hole.

[Dylboz]

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Fetterman guy is a hardcore anti-gunner. easy for him, with his "let's take it outside" bullshit, because at 6'8" and 300+, no one is ever going to take him up on that unless they're Andre the Giant sized. He'll never understand what it's like to be smaller and weaker, because he's always been intimidating physically, so he can;t relate to people who *NEED* a gun to protect themselves from criminals who are, like him, fucking HUGE. I .357 Magnum is the only thing that can make Granny safe from a thug who wants her purse and maybe worse. It's a pathetic sort of solipsism.

[Dalton]

Take the biggest guy in the world, shatter his knee and he'll drop like a stone.

[JeremyR]

Yeah. They had a saying in the Old West

God created Man, Colonel Colt made them equal.

[Coeus]

I have that same shirt that Nick was wearing. Five dollars at Wal-Mart. I wonder if he was thinking about that when he put it on for the show.
"capitalism works, bitches. Proof of concept."

[GILMORE]

thats actually a funny comment. +1

either that, or he got ripped off.

[The Pips]

On the insults:
I've heard this kind of thing before - "smug" ("know-it-all") "eye-rolling" etc. and the thing is, liberals (and possibly conservatives) put a standard on libertarians that is way beyond what they put on themselves. It's pure irony as everyone here has seen to refer to Nick as smug when Maher is one of the smuggest, snarkiest people I've ever seen on tv. He thinks smirking "oh lord!" is a reasonable response to an idea that he opposes. But liberals or cons ever hold their own up to those standards, to critique the Olbermanns and Mahers and O'Reilly's for their bitchiness? No, but for some reason, libertarians are expected to be Mandelaian or Gandhian statesmen, completely above common human reactions to stupidity.

I've been the recipient of these kinds of comments before - "oh, that's so obnoxious that you smile when you respond as though you know it all." Yeah, like my interlocutor didn't have his own obnoxious habits or worse obnoxious habits. What they really mean is "I don't like your ideas, but I don't know how to respond to them, so I'm going to just focus on your less than completely saintly attitude."

Maybe there is a place for a libertarian Mandela, that would be cool, but the double-standard of libs and cons pisses me off.

[GILMORE]

Refusal to join a team is worse than being part of the enemy team. At least they follow the pantomime 'rules'. Everyone hates the heretics.

[not sure...]

...that I see the connection between the two statements

[Tanya]

@Nick Gillespie Easy with the praise on Fetteman.

Here's the most accurate news coverage of him: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02.....wanted=all

He's anti-capitalist and pro "art galleries", he's made some investments in Braddock on his own and gotten Levi's to come in and do their national ad campaign in Braddock but the facts stay the same: less than 20 people have actually moved into Braddock, for the cheap housing or the "artist communes" or anything else.

I spent a few months working in Braddock (as a manager with the Census) and met really, truly great working-class people. Not welfare-class people, mind you but working class people whose mentality is geared towards not living on the government dole.

But the Braddock council and mayor also don't share services so the North Braddock and Braddock Hills boros - all within a short range of each other. They each have their own councils, boro buildings, full-sized police forces, fire departments...well, you get the picture.

Until the government cronies get out of the way - such as this woman http://www.post-gazette.com/pg.....453-56.stm who stole $180k from Braddock's coffers - that I interviewed repeatedly for the Census - Braddock will never flourish. The people have the will - boy do they ever. But the forces in place are awful.

While Fetteman puts his money where his mouth is by investing in Braddock himself, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.