Ayn Rand Not Just for Satanists, Argues Episcopal Bishop
Hold on to your zucchetto, Joe Carter: Episcopal Bishop Edward S. Little II writes in Christianity Today about "how the anti-Christian philosopher prepared me to hear the gospel":
Ayn Rand taught me how to think. "Man cannot survive except through his mind," says Howard Roark in The Fountainhead. "He comes on earth unarmed. His brain is his only weapon. Animals obtain food by force. Man has no claws, no fangs, no horns, no great strength of muscle. He must plant his food or hunt it. To plant, he needs a process of thought. To hunt, he needs weapons, and to make weapons—a process of thought. From this simplest necessity to the highest religious abstraction, from the wheel to the skyscraper, everything we are and we have comes from a single attribute of man—the function of his reasoning mind." And so Rand challenged me to reject sloppy thinking, to apply reason meticulously, not least when dealing with culturally mandated assumptions. But that very commitment to reason gave me tools that led, much to my surprise, to a critique of Objectivism itself. The unseen Reality to which Plato pointed made sense not simply as an alternative way of seeing the world, but also under the test of reason.
Indeed, that very test points to God himself. The order and complexity of creation, the fact, as Lewis notes in Mere Christianity, that there seems to be a moral law with a claim upon human beings ("right and wrong as a clue to the meaning of the universe," he calls it), all stand upon the foundation of the firm application of reason. Rigorous thought can set the stage for faith and demonstrate the reasonableness of the Christian claim that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. While reason cannot, unaided, present the fullness of Christian truth, it can support and undergird it.
Ayn Rand taught me that there is such a thing as objective reality. Three Aristotelian axioms—Non-Contradiction, Either-Or, and A is A—mark the three sections of Atlas Shrugged. "Contradictions do not exist," Francisco tells Dagny. "Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." In other words, a thing is true (or false) regardless of what we think about it. This flies in the face of modernism (which tends to dismiss out of hand the supernatural and the miraculous, with no evidence beyond skepticism) and postmodernism (which doesn't so much reject the supernatural as completely relativize it). When a postmodernist says, "All truth is relative; you have your truth and I have mine," Rand, and I, might answer: Your very statement contains an inherent inner contradiction. You claim as objective truth an assertion that would, in effect, negate itself.
All of this, in the end, led me to the non-sentimental and objective claims of the gospel. The gospel is no mere preference. It is true, or it isn't. Jesus is who he says he is, or he is (again, Lewis) a madman or a fraud. Christian doctrine—Creation, Fall, Incarnation, Redemption, Consummation, and our ultimate and beatific vision of the Trinity—is true, or false. It can't be both. Rand's view of objective reality is admittedly limited. She relies on the senses and goes no further. She dismisses faith as mysticism and its practitioners as witch doctors. But she is right in this: If something is true, it is so because it aligns with reality. Our desires neither confirm nor deny its validity. Our only choice is to say "Yes" to truth, or not. As a Christian, that "Yes" is to Truth incarnate, Jesus Christ.
There's much more, for those interested. Recently David Harsanyi argued that religious conservatives can learn a lot from Rand.
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"It's turtles all the way down."
There is only 1 turtle, with 4 elephants on its back. But if that is the world you live on, its silly to deny it.
What is the turtle standing on?
Its swimming thru space. Duh.
Its on the way to meet its mate. The world will end in the Big Bang. At least some speculate that is what is happening.
You are familiar with Diskworld, right?
Haven't read/played Diskworld.
I was referring to an exchange Carl Sagan quoted in one of his books.
---
Its on the way to meet its mate. The world will end in the Big Bang.
You mean the whole of the cosmos is about two turtles getting it on?
You mean the whole of the cosmos is about two turtles getting it on?
Nah, just two worlds.
Im pretty sure Pratchett was riffing off the Sagan bit. I was well aware of YOUR reference.
But, the same applies to it. If we are on a world that is turtles all the way down, it would be silly to deny it.
Terry speaks the truth.
'Recently David Harsanyi argued that religious conservatives can learn a lot from Rand.'
They obviously haven't learned enough...
Religious conservatives could learn a lot from Jesus Christ.
Religious conservatives could learn a lot from Jesus Christ.
Sadly, this is all too true. The average Christian in the USA has more in common with the Pharisees of 2000 years ago than they do with Jesus.
Off-topic, but last night on the PBS News Hour Gwen Ifill said:
Stupid bitch what the court did was favor THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION OVER BULLSHIT. Stupid editorializing cunt.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb.....06-28.html
Jesus, that's idiotic. The Court rejects a case based on its failure to meet even the most basic standards for certifying a class action, and that's somehow wrong? Does the rule of law not apply when corporations are involved?
The stupid is powerful in this one.
Yet taking my money by force and giving it to PBS to spew this drivel is a-ok.
For some people it's not whether if the decision is good law, but if the decision helps or hurts the proper people.
Thread on Gwen Ifill wherein joe argues the right-wing doesn't think PBS is left-wing to make a partisan point. And up is down, left is right, and day is night.
I just read some great comments in that thread from J sub D.
Now I has a sad.
Best joe quote in that beautifully non-nested thread:
"I'm not interesting in understanding..."
http://reason.com/blog/2008/10.....nt_1100521
And the News Hour is still about the best news show on TV. Ugh.
That's the sad part. I'm a regular watcher and Ifill sucks the most with here constant editorializing.
Yup.
I stand in awe of Christian apologists consistent ability to breed larger and larger asses from which to pull personal truths.
Sixty fucking years later and Objectivism's incompatibility with religion is still considered news.
How can you simultaneously learn that there is an objective reality AND learn that reality is illusionary mere appearance obscuring the true, unseen reality of Platonic forms?
"To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one's thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one's mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality."
^^
What he said.
Are they contradictory? If I knowingly go into a holodeck, then I perceive a reality that I know is not true reality. We can recognize that our capacity to understand reality is limited (and thus, whatever we perceive of reality is at best a partial truth, if not truth adulterated with copious amounts of falsehood), while still believing that an objective reality exists whether or not we accurately or precisely perceive it. Of course, much like theism, this is an act of faith.
It's not even an act of faith. It is a compulsory, practical act. As Hume pointed out, we can never know whether our necessary reliance on induction is well-founded, but we still nonetheless leave third floor rooms by the door instead of the window. If we didn't, we'd have no opportunity to leave rooms, or build them for that matter.
True you are not omniscient and you can be decieved by your senses under the right circumstances. Your confusion does not negate the fact that reality is what it is at any given moment.
Thank you Fluffy.
Truth incarnate, Jesus Christ
Let's have some Hume.
This just in: you can learn things from Rand without necessarily agreeing with objectivism.
Many Rand followers AND detractors cannot conceive of that.
But... but... they're one and the same!!!
(head explodes)
if you can stand her awful writing.
zing!
"This just in: you can learn things from Rand without necessarily agreeing with objectivism."
I don't think Rand would agree with that.
You're out of the club, asshole!
I'm just sadly unsurprised to see C.S. Lewis' "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord" argument pulled out yet again after it's been so thoroughly shown to be based in a logical fallacy. Believe in what you want, Bishop, but that particular argument is just plain devoid of intellectual rigor.
The Wikipedia entry on that argument has this tidbit:
accommodating the option that Jesus was a guru, who believed himself to be God in the sense that everything is divine
The idea of Jesus as a pantheist is delicious.
believed himself to be God in the sense that everything is divine
File that option in the lunatic column.
I guess I could check out the wikipedia page or google around but I dont see an obvious fallacy. And Ive read "debunkings" of this in the past.
It doesn't seem to square well with anything JC says in the Bible, does it? Still, I like the idea of Jesus as a proto-Spinoza.
From the pantheist bible:
No one can get to the father except thru me. Or, you know, anyone else. Whatever...that guy will do just fine.
Of course, the Godspels were written well after Jesus' death, so it is unlikely that he actually said anything that is in the Bible, if he even existed at all.
Not the case. The Gospel of Mark, for starters, was written around 64 A.D. Ask the Wiki. The latest book wasn't written any later than the end of the first century.
Not the case. The Gospel of Mark, for starters, was written around 64 A.D. Ask the Wiki. The latest book wasn't written any later than the end of the first century.
There is a theory that the Gospel of Thomas -- which is just a list of Jesus quotes, with no narrative -- either predates Mark, or is based on a shared source that predates Mark. If anything contains Jesus's actual words, Thomas seems to be it.
Thomas is actually a pretty good example of the sort of thing the original gospels are supposed to be. It's a late document, and largely cobbled together from scraps from a number of sources, many of them spurious. From a textual analysis standpoint, it's fascinating stuff, but on most levels, it's a poor source compared to the Synoptics.
Part of the problem is Thomas's genre. There are a number of these "collected quotes" books from that period, and they rarely tried to get everything right. That just wasn't part of the genre. They would tend to accrete pithy sayings from any culture they went to, with no real consistency or overall message. So Thomas ended up with a bunch of stuff that was probably Jesus, some stuff that was stolen from other Christian sources like Paul, and a whole lot of filler taken right out of second century Gnostic texts.
Thomas is interesting, but more authentic than Mark? More solid than the Q text in Matthew and Luke? Absolutely impossible. Those are textually well-attested, and we KNOW Thomas has been futzes with extensively. That's half the appeal.
I think many of the "debunkings" misunderstand Lewis' point. For example, this website describes the axiom as an argument that "attempts to present a case through process of elimination of all other options, that Jesus Christ must have been god." Of course, that wasn't Lewis' point; his point was that saying, "I don't believe Jesus was the son of God but I think he was a great man" is illogical.
On a side note, I'd like to blame God for failing to give me the skills to close tags.
CS Lewis's point is a perfectly valid one. JC as the son of god is either true or false; if it's false, it's because he was lying or was crazy. Or that he never existed, which I suppose would be a species of lying.
But not lying on Jesus' part.
My main reason for existing is so that I can lie.
If it's false, he could just be mistaken. The Dalai Lama isn't a liar or a nutjob, but almost no one outside Tibet accepts him as the 14th incarnation of Avelokiteshvara.
Point, but that which makes perfect sense in the context of Buddhism is absolutely batty for a first century Jew.
A first-century Jew bathed in Greek and Roman culture. Cross a few stories and reinterpret a passage here and there, and you get the Messiah as the Saviour of the World.
Sure, but that's not the tricky part. The tricky part is YHWH incarnate, running like hell from being a political figure, choosing to die in poverty instead of starting a war. There's not really a plausible way Jesus could get to that point without being pretty crazy.
Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible, but it's pretty unlikely. He could have invented Christianity himself out of whole cloth using just Jewish documents and a few ideas out of Zoroastrianism and other sources. Even then, if he were exotically and intelligently insane, it would have helped tremendously.
The most likely option seems to be that Jesus is a fictional character, loosely based on some historical events.
It seems likely that Rabbi Joshua of Nazareth* did exist, and he was a well-regarded teacher who said most of the things attributed to him. (See the Gospel of Thomas.) Where his disciples probably went overboard was in attributing divinity to him. It was a hot trend in the day, with a Senate vote deifying Julius Caesar, and Mithras being a man briefly (though born of rock).
*"Jesus Christ" is Greek for "Joshua Crucified".
I wish people would quit talking about me dying a horrible, slow death.
Joshua Anointed, actually. If Q is to be believed, he was pretty definite on the God thing. That's what made him different from all the other messiahs running around Judea every summer.
It's only illogical if you use another false dilemma; either "all of the Biblical account of Jesus is true" or "all of the Biblical account of Jesus is false." If you think Jesus taught some good stuff, but think later chroniclers larded up the story with supernatural nonsense, then it's perfectly logical to conclude that Jesus was a great man without accepting that he was divine.
Not true, and I believe Lewis covered this himself.
Take the red letter stuff in the gospels. Remove the miracles, remove the son of god and other supernaturally references. What do you have left? some cliched pap (and it was cliched 2000 years ago).
There is still some good stuff, but nothing that would qualify as a "great man". If any of the meat is orginal material, you are back to fraud/liar/god.
If his teachings are cliched pap, what good are the miracles?
His teachings, in context of the son of God bit and miracles ARENT cliched pap any more.
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth" means something entirely different coming from the son of God than from some random guy.
Actually I don't think many, if any, religions at that time (aside from the Jews) were advocating that the meek would inherit the earth. Most of them taught that strength was a sign of favor from the gods. Jesus taught that poverty could be holy.
Who would that message have gone over with better: the Romans, who were constantly trying to suppress a Jewish political uprising; or the Pharisees, Zealots, and all the other sects who were trying to start one?
N.T. Wright makes a pretty strong case that almost everything recorded in the Gospels was incredibly politically and religiously volatile in some way. His contemporaries could have read only the "cliched pap" and come up with enough reasons call Jesus an insane, blasphemous, bomb-throwing anarchist. (NTTAWWT)
So can we call Christfags pap-smeareds now?
The question this all leaves me with is, why would anyone take these arguments and conclude that Jesus was divine rather than insane or a fictional character?
If some guy comes up to me today and starts ranting about being the only path to salvation, would it be reasonable for me to conclude that he is in fact a divine being?
The question this all leaves me with is, why would anyone take these arguments and conclude that Jesus was divine rather than insane or a fictional character?
If some guy comes up to me today and starts ranting about being the only path to salvation, would it be reasonable for me to conclude that he is in fact a divine being?
Entirely different issue. And two reasonable question. The answer to the second would be "Yes, if he is in fact a divine being". Which is kind of tautological, but there ya go.
As an atheist who likes to discuss theology, I always appreciate a good natured religious person willing to engage on these questions.
Fictional probably isn't going to work, since he's pretty well attested. If he didn't exist, it was a pretty elaborate "Adam Selene" style conspiracy that would have required the cooperation of most of Jerusalem, including the Romans and the Pharisees.
Insane or demonic is historically the best attested competing theory. A number of early documents take that approach.
Don't forget "partially fictional", like Robin Hood or King Arthur (both of whom may have been based on real people, but whose biographical details are largely or entirely fictional). Jesus could be such a character.
The best attested parts of Jesus' life--that is, the parts in all the synoptic gospels, in early creeds, early adversarial accounts of Christian worship--are the most controversial parts. There's no documentary reason to think he didn't get crucified in Judea around 36 A.D., claim to be the son of the Jewish God, claim to do healings and inaugurate a divine kingdom, and so on. Did he really say Christians could drink poison and handle snakes? Well, that's up for debate. But that doesn't get us very far.
I'll be perfectly happy to stipulate that a historical Jesus existed and made all the claims you say he did, SBoR. But that doesn't mean that the character (in a literary sense) of Jesus as presented in the Bible wasn't heavily fictionalized.
Kinda like how we have plenty of evidence that George Washington existed, but that in no way proves that he chopped down a cherry tree as a youth or threw a silver dollar across the Potomac.
I expect that some fictionalization happened. I'm just not seeing there being any room for "heavy" fictionalization. With a few notable exceptions, most of the material is consistent with reliable parts, like the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus' last days in Jerusalem.
If we're talking about the resurrection, that's more likely to be a conspiracy than poetic license. The gospel writers and the early Christians were too solid on the details for it to be legendary accretion, and too convinced to be going along for the ride.
As I argue above, if you think later chroniclers larded up the story with supernatural nonsense, what ground do you have for believing that he taught some good stuff? (I suppose you could use Thomas Jefferson's methodology: if it fits my preconception of Jesus (i.e., great teacher), then it's obviously true; if it contradicts that preconception (i.e., by claiming divinity or by performing miracles and stuff), then it's obviously bogus.)
Just to clear up any misconceptions, I do not personally hold the "Jesus wasn't God, but was a great teacher" position. I'm just saying that it's not inherently illogical to take that position if you have some reason to believe that (some portion of) the teaching parts of the story were true and that the God parts weren't.
Im saying that it is inherently logical, because without the God parts, there isnt anything there to qualify him as a great teacher.
Take the Sermon on the Mount, remove any of the God parts (no miracles to concern with) and its pretty meh.
"Settle before you get to court" is pretty much the meat of it at that point. Good advice, but, you know, nothing to preserve for 2000 years.
Just keep in mind that the quality or lack thereof of the non-supernatural parts of Jesus' teachings weren't actually part of Lewis' argument.
But you'll get no disagreement from me about the stand-alone merits of what Jesus (supposedly) said. Meh indeed.
Just keep in mind that the quality or lack thereof of the non-supernatural parts of Jesus' teachings weren't actually part of Lewis' argument.
Actually, it is. The great man argument depends on the QUALITY of his teachings.
I guess you'll have to quote me the chunk of Lewis' argument that illustrates this, then, 'cause try as I might, I simply don't see it in the plain text.
The major fallacy (at least in my book) within Lewis' argument is that it pretends that those three positions ("Jesus was lying," "Jesus was crazy," and "Jesus was divine") are the only possibilities, and thus fallaciously defines away all other explanations, like a) that this Jesus guy either never existed, or b) he didn't actually say/do all the things that the Bible claims he did.
a and b would be forms of lying, but, as pointed out by SF, not necessary by Jesus.
The argument is still valid.
Well, I think if you read the actual argument as formulated by Lewis you'll see that he's specifically assigning the "lying" part to Jesus himself. Because if you add "Legend" to "Lunatic," "Liar," and "Lord," the rest of the argument (where Lewis uses the process of elimination to "prove" the "Lord" conclusion) falls apart.
I have read it.
Yes, he is assuming a "historical" account of events. But Im not that pedantic, I can easily tweak the argument to move the fraud and lying to his disciples or their disciples, without destroying the argument.
And you should feel free to do so. But as he formulated it, Lewis' argument doesn't hold up logically, that's all I'm saying.
Well, if you want to use the "he didn't actually say/do all the things that the Bible claims he did," I don't see how you can be so sure that he said any of those things you want to point to in support of the "great teacher but not God" theory. As Chesterton said, in a slightly different context (and I may have gotten the details wrong), if someone tells me that "a man wearing a yellow shirt crossed the street and walked through the wall of the building on the other side," I'd be inclined to doubt, not just the walking-through-walls part, but the yellow shirt as well.
And if you want to use the "this Jesus guy ... never existed," then you can't very well maintain that he was a great teacher, can you?
You could maintain that the teachings were valid, but just made up by whoever put it on paper.
Maybe it was like Atlas Shrugged: a fictional story with a lot of speeches to get a message across.
Sort of a sermon, but with a cast?
So the great moral teachers are really the evangelists, who in writing those great moral truths lied through their teeth about Jesus in order to spread their message?
Or the whole story was cooked up without any input from Jesus. Quadillema.
Shoot. Someone already thought of that.
Note to self: Read the whole thread and wikipedia article before commenting.
At the link to the Christianity Today piece, you can see the cover of their June issue features CHRISTIAN STEVE SMITH!
STEVE SMITH NO EVOLVE, HE FROM WHEN GOD RAPE EARTH OR MAYBE A RIB OR SOME SHIT.
If the pentagram in that pic is supposed to be satanic, FYI it's upside down.
Actually, it's just rotated 36?.
Thats is crazy talk, clearly it off 108 degrees IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.
Is it supposed to resemble the cover of 2112?
I'm pretty sure that's it.
Do I have to do everything here?
blech. Since it was mentioned
Infectious imbecility. I've made my choice: 666.
Hey, keep it down in there! I work third shift, y'know!
Hey! Crank up the bass in there! Keep that asshole in 665 awake, that fucker scraped my Bimmer when he left for work last night!
(rocks backs and forth rubbing temples just imagining how much blood there will be when his vengeful wrath brings sweet righteous justice to the room upstairs.)
Apartment 26
Hadn't thought about them in at least 10 years.
Wikipedia calls these guys nu metal, but they sound a lot more like industrial/electronic crossover. That track wasn't half bad.
I'm of the opinion Rand isn't for Christians due to her idolization of child-murderer William Hickman, who kidnapped a twelve year old girl, cut her into pieces and kicked her body parts down the street while giggling. Perhaps the good bishop and Mr. Harsanyi should read more.
Not going to say it makes up for liking this ****, but here's what she said about it (from wikipedia, of course): "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."
And: "The first thing that impresses me about the case is the ferocious rage of a whole society against one man. No matter what the man did, there is always something loathsome in the 'virtuous' indignation and mass-hatred of the 'majority.'... It is repulsive to see all these beings with worse sins and crimes in their own lives, virtuously condemning a criminal..."
Of course, this was back in her Neitzsche days, so it may not be entirely consistent with her later works. Though I don't get the impression she changed her mind much during her life.
This should be fun
"Jesus was either a madman or a fraud." False choice. All accounts of what Jesus is supposed to have said are from third parties.
Wait... No. Its worse than that. Regarding the Bible, there are no original documents that can be traced to the people who supposedly wrote them. Even if one accepts that the documents we have match the originals and if one assumes that originals even existed, we are still dealing with copies of copies of copies of copies.
A correct statement could be, "If the Catholic Church and the ancient Roman politicians who founded it can be trusted, then Jesus was either a madman or a fraud." Hmmm...
Looks like someone forgot to check his premise.
That is also true for every ancient text. Show me the original copy of The Iliad.
But I do agree that mistakes were made when copying and that meaning was lost in translation...that was a big part of the Reformation...
The Iliad isn't believed to be a true account, however. It was first written before the Greek dark age, was it not?
At most, it's a dramatization of a general outline of what happened.
Right, but you're not questioning the existence of Homer.
I haven't researched it, but I doubt the original texts from Herodotus have been found either, yet no one questions his existence.
Well, someone had to make the story up, even if it's not who we think it is. Provide me with any evidence, and I'd be happy to discount the story of Homer's existence. Homer is really just a name to attach to the Iliad and Odyssey, even if they were written by different people.
Right, my point is that no ancient text can be traced back to it's original document. So, questioning if Paul really wrote the Epistles is just like questioning if Herodotus wrote The Histories.
I threw Herodotus in there specifically because he's an historian, not recording probably fictional tales.
I think the lesson there, then, is that practically speaking it's really fucking stupid to base your life or worth on the gamble that any ancient document reports anything even remotely historically credible.
If you didn't see it, and the guys who wrote it down didn't see it, it probably didn't happen, now, did it?
Lots of people question the existence of Homer. Homer is really the body of work, not an author. The stories and basic poetic form of Homer probably originated in pre-literate oral tradition.
if one assumes that originals even existed
Either an original existed or the documents are eternal. Not really any other options. Well, option 3 could be that that they never existed at all, but since I have a version, that cant be true.
...or the supposed "copies" are the actual originals and the whole thing is a fraud.
In which case an original exists.
The existence of the originals neither confirms nor denies fraud.
Or, far more likely given the documentary evidence we do have, is that there were several simultaneous and differing versions circulating contemporaneously, from which were chosen people's favorite parts which were then stitched together to form a vaguely coherent narrative.
Much like the Iliad, in fact.
As a Christian, I'm increasingly disappointed by contemporary christianity's inability to consider philosophical ideas and not throw the baby out with the bath water.
I don't agree 100% with Objectivism, and it doesn't really bother me that Rand wasn't a fan of religion. Yet, somehow, I'm still able to read Atlas Shrugged and hold the ideas presented in my mind without going crazy.
I'm glad that this guy is at least saying that just because you disagree with someone's worldview doesn't mean you can't learn anything from them.
Ditto.
I criticize Rand for lots of stuff, even outside her views on christianity (redefining words to fit her philosophy being the big one), but there is a lot to learn from her. Just like plenty of other non-christian writers. Like Aristotle and Plato and Socrates, to pick 3 random* non-christians.
*I should probably check into my random number generator, seems flawed.
I refuse to read Aristotle since his five elements theory was totally wrong.
Water.
Like that exists.
Compound, fool. Ain't no stinking element (though sulfur is definitely a stinking element).
Actually, only sulfur compounds stink. Raw elemental sulfur is odorless.
Fool. 🙂
Only Christ-fags worship Ayn Rand.
Objectivists just respect her.
If that had only been in ALL CAPS and mentioned rape once that would have been almost STEVE SMITH like!
Only Christ-fags worship RAPE Ayn Rand.
Never stop trying though Shrike....I admire your can do spirit.
I'm 36% sure it's 72 deg.
There are many valid ideas in the Christian Bible. ("Thou shalt not kill", "Thou shalt not bear false witness," "Do not bind the mouth of them that treadeth out the corn.")
TBS, Aesop's fables also contain many valid precepts, but that doesn't mean I believe in talking foxes.
"Christ, in terms of the Christian philosophy, is the human ideal. He personifies that which men should strive to emulate. Yet, according to the Christian mythology, he died on the cross not for his own sins but for the sins of the nonideal people. In other words, a man of perfect virtue was sacrificed for men who are vicious and who are expected or supposed to accept that sacrifice. If I were a Christian, nothing could make me more indignant than that: the notion of sacrificing the ideal to the nonideal, or virtue to vice. And it is in the name of that symbol that men are asked to sacrifice themselves for their inferiors. That is precisely how the symbolism is used."
Playboy's Interview with Ayn Rand, March 1964.
Jesus died at the cross because he didn't want to stoop down to the level of mere mortals to defend his case. And why would he, he was the son of God, not an (imperfect) image of him.
Wait a minute. Assuming you're serious here, Jesus, a Jew and rabbi who "stooped" among mortal men his whole career, chose to be crucified because he didn't want to "stoop" to the level of the very people he taught throughout his entire life? Oooo-kaaaay.
The mortals at his trial of course...
If that is the case, he died for sake of his pride, not "for our sins."
Yup. Isn't "pride" one of those seven deadly sins? Number 4, I believe.
I really don't know how you start with Ayn Rand, even with a critique of Objectivism using itself, to: "All of this, in the end, led me to the non-sentimental and objective claims of the gospel."
Under the same auspices of Reason, this is Jefferson's "conclusion" in the advice he gives to his newphew Peter Carr:
4. Religion. Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object.
.. (long paragraph, but recommended; cites the reasoning)
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you.
If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love.
In fine, I repeat, you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject anything, because any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it.
Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness of the decision.
.. As for the man himself, what his own beliefs were.. well, he tore up the Gospels, shot down Paul and rightly so, as he never even met Jesus in person ("Of this band of dupes and imposters [lol, the other apostles], Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus"), threw away most of the bible and all of the Old testament, and wrote his own version without any of the miracles.
Ayn Rand in a Nutshell: "One must reason for oneself, therefor I will tell you what to think"
as he never even met Jesus in person
Jefferson makes the assumption that Acts 9 is false.
If you are going to start with the approach that miracles cant occur, well, it seems to be begging the question.
Whenever I discuss religion with agnostics and/or atheists, I've discovered that asking whether or not they are willing to allow the existence of the metaphysical and/or supernatural is a good starting point.
Arguing the concept of God with a naturalist won't get you very far.
agnostics and/or atheists
Atheists are naturalists....but personally i prefer the term materialists rather then naturalists
Also I hate the type of agnostics who say the bible is full of shit then say how other supernatural bullshit is true.
"Jesus could not have possibly risen from the dead....but when I was young I saw a ghost."
FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
Strange that an agnostic would say that since agnostic literally means "without knowledge." Was the bible full of shit? I don't know. Are there such things as ghosts? I don't know. Are there metaphysical or supernatural forces? I don't know.
I have some suspicions that at least a majority of the bible is full of shit, that ghosts are not real, and that that there are no supernatural forces, but I wouldn't bet more than about $5 on any of those things.
Personally I'm a nontheist. I do allow for the metaphysical and/or the "supernatural" because if they are real, most such phenomenon would be part of the 'natural' fabric of reality itself.
Now assuming we aren't dealing with hoaxes or frauds, here's the problem with "miracles": if the same miracle happens to 4 different people of 4 different cultures and religious background, then we're going to get 4 very different accounts of the same phenomenon.
Metaphysics is actually a good subject that could be developed further. See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.....David_Bohm
However, metaphysics in the most accurate or literal meaning of the word (analogous to metadata or metamathematics), has yet to be formalized (and may never be until we gain a higher mode of thought perhaps) in the same way meta-mathematics is, if you've ever taken a discrete/foundations-of math course for example
But what I think many non-religious people have problems with, isn't the "do ghosts exist" and such types of questions. It's the theism Like I mentioned, being a nontheist, it does not matter if there's 0 god, 1 god, 10 gods, 0 devils, 10 devils, 100 archangels and 20 demons; or if Jesus rose from the dead; or if Jesus was or wasn't the son of god; or if it's ok to work on the Sabbath; or if X or Y is "moral" or not; or whatever because none of that matters, in the most universal sense, outside of the individuals who make it matter to themselves!
Jesus is the Romanized version of the Persian god Mithra.
It's spelled Mothra. And he was Japanese.
You mean a Jewish version, right? That makes about as much sense as a libertarianized version of Janet Napolitano, and would have been just as appealing.
To be really accurate, it was a mystical Judeo-Hellenic composite character, borrowing heavily from the contemporaneous work of Philo of Alexandria. Philo was the guy who, it should be noted, first used the word ????? ("logos") in the sense that it appears in the Gospel of John.
He borrowed very few Romanized features; the character was intended to be appealing primarily to the koine Greek speaking peoples of the defunct Seleucid empire (Macedonia, Greece, Turkey). Rome and Roman centered symbolism and characters don't figure into the story at all, and are referenced only in some of the epistles (to the Romans and a bit in the Thessalonians) and in the Apocalypse of St. John.
Don't forget Isis!
Oh, yes she is.
Though I don't assume the commentariat at this site represent all of libertarianism, I'm still amazed that when a Christian cites Rand in a positive manner only contempt follows.
I have no problems with a Christian or any other religious person citing Rand. Finding something useful despite your beliefs--perfectly fine. In fact I think it's commendable. Nor do I think you should change your beliefs on her account alone.
Twisting her philosophy, the reasoning (some of which I don't agree with for more logical reasons ironically) to fit and to "prove" your religious beliefs--not cool at all.
Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
Attention all Planets of the Solar Federation
We have assumed control
We have assumed control
We have assumed control
FOR SATAN
Jesus may well be who he says he is, but did he at any point really say he is God? I beg to differ.
Contrary to so much of the disinformation out there about her, it isn't the case that Ayn Rand was against charity. She was personally charitable to her friends and donated to help Israel defend itself. In her own words: "My views on charity are very simple. I do not consider it a major virtue and, above all, I do not consider it a moral duty. There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue. What I am fighting is the idea that charity is a moral duty and a primary virtue."
Her point was that you have to have a healthy non-charitable sector in order to be able to provide charity, and that economic freedom (and nothing else) provides that health. How much can one donate if one is starving or dies at age 35, as before technology one did.
Government welfare is a perversion of charity because it is ill-managed and cripples the productive sector over time. Look at the tens of trillions in unfunded liabilities that are going to cripple our economy; and it's just going to get worse unless we get the system right.
One part of the foolishness of the recent debates about Rand is the idea that agreeing with Rand's prediction and diagnoses in "Atlas Shrugged" - the accuracy of which has been demonstrated in the last few years to a nicety - somehow magically commits one to agreement with her total philosophy. Would this argument be extended to an atheist leftist who recommends Tolstoy or Victor Hugo?
The other part is a specific misrepresentation of Christianity. Christianity is not a pro-Statism religion; indeed, given who killed their Savior, it tends to the anti-State. (This is something the left has not yet dealt with.) Nowhere in the Bible does it say that wealth should be expropriated and redistributed by the dubious means of government structures; it speaks of personal and *voluntary* charity. One might add, looking at the horrific debt and unfunded liabilities situation that the U.S. is in right now, that the Bible and Jesus were wise in staying away from government panaceas.
This entire kabuki charade is in bad faith. The Bible does not advocate any Progressive notions of "economic justice." The progressives who have suddenly discovered religion and its necessary role in politics - after thirty decades and more of stridently and rightly insisting it must be kept out of politics - are not sincere. After this temporary rhetorical bubble is over, they will resume their previous, also ad-hoc, declarations.
As for the "sociopath" accusation, this is what comes of copying attack website garbage. The whole thing rests upon one author - Michael Prescott's - highly selective excerpting and chopping up of a private [i.e., thinking out loud without clarifications ] journal written when Rand was barely out of her teens, fresh from the blood bath of 1920s Soviet Russia - and still made it very clear that her read on the personalities of the observers showed that they were not appalled by Hickman's crime - she said there had been far worse, without the same spectacle of glee - but by his flamboyant and mocking defiance of society. She - who was writing about a *legally innocent man* at the time of the trial - even called him a monster, a pervert, a repulsive and purposeless criminal. Enough with the disinformation and - yes - Satanizing of Ayn Rand.