Oh What a Lovely Budget Item
For a neocon, fiscal restraint stops at the water's edge.
When Bill Kristol endorsed America's intervention in Libya, the Weekly Standard editor was being completely consistent with everything else he has said about American foreign policy. He just wasn't being consistent with his pose as a proponent of fiscal restraint. It's bracing to watch Kristol twirl so easily from denouncing "the Democrats' orgy of spending" and complaining about Republicans who "don't have a credible plan to deal with the debt or the deficit" to jubilating that the president "didn't shrink from defending the use of force." But the pundit's gyrations can't obscure a basic reality: You can pay your bills or you can be a global policeman, but you can't do both. Not in 2011.
According to ABC, the cost of Obama's kinetic spending reached $600 million in its first week. The Pentagon estimates that the total could reach $800 million by the end of September, and the Pentagon just might be lowballing. Todd Harrison, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, has told The National Journal that the price tag could "easily pass the $1 billion mark on this operation, regardless of how well things go." And if things don't go well…
But let's stick, for the moment, with the costs of that initial week. That's already more than half the amount House Republicans have asked to cut from Americorps. It's more than twice the amount they've asked to cut from Amtrak. It's nearly four times the size of National Public Radio's entire operating budget for fiscal year 2011, including the parts that come from private sources. All this for just a week of a war that—unlike our invasions and occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan—doesn't even pretend to be an act of self-defense. (When Kristol endorsed a spending freeze, he made an explicit exception for "national security." I realize that "national security" is usually a euphemism for "anything remotely related to foreign policy," but just for fun, let's take it literally. Does anyone out there seriously believe NATO's planes are in Libya's skies to keep Americans secure?)
And what about those troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, where the price tag isn't threatening to hit a billion but long ago topped a trillion? It goes without saying that Kristol and his cohort still support both wars even as they're eager to add a third. It also goes without saying that the Libyan operation will make it harder to make military cuts of any kind. (As a spokesman for Joe Lieberman put it to Politico, "Congress should be very careful and cautious about any reductions in defense spending, given the many profound responsibilities shouldered by our military at this time.") For a neocon, fiscal restraint stops at the water's edge.
There are several coherent ways to think about federal spending and foreign policy right now. You can address America's fiscal crisis by calling for serious cuts both at home and abroad. That's the libertarian path. You can deny that we're facing a serious fiscal crisis at all, and thus feel free to support new spending at home and overseas. That's what the pro-war, pro-bailout liberal hawks have been doing. And you can deny we face a serious fiscal crisis but join in the libertarians' other arguments against the wars. That's the liberal doves' approach.
What you can't coherently claim is that we need to both (a) bring our financial house in order or face fiscal ruin and (b) embark on one expensive open-ended military adventure after another. Yet conservatives in the Kristol mold don't seem to see a contradiction here at all.
On Thursday, Jennifer Rubin of the Washington Post led off a blog entry with fulsome praise for Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) and a letter he recently wrote endorsing American intervention in Libya. She contrasted Rubio and his red-blooded hawkishness with President Obama, who she assured us "would still be dithering" if it weren't for pressure from "Nicolas Sarkozy, David Cameron, Hillary Clinton and a few others." She made it clear that she thinks the locales that demand our leadership are not limited to Libya. She was especially scornful of Obama's alleged belief that "we will meet our obligations" to the world only if "it doesn't cost too much."
And then, in the very same post, she complained that the president's budget is "devoid of serious measures to steer us back from the brink of fiscal doom." She's right about that. But she isn't one to talk.
Jesse Walker is managing editor of Reason magazine.
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Kristol is such a pompous sack of crap, its a wonder he's not in the Senate.
Kristol was created by god to test libertarian's principles.
"Oh, a non-aggression principle how nice, how principled of you. Look at Mr. Kristol there, don't you just want to smash his face in? He's done nothing to you, but still, wouldn't be nice to kick his teeth down his throat."
"You think that people should be able to keep their wealth and that legacy taxes are wrong? Hmmm. Then you have no problem with Mr. Kristol, who got into Harvard with a sub-average IQ because of his dad's connections, right? Or that he has more money than you will ever, not because of merit, but because of his dad? We both know that in a just universe Billy-Boy here would be flipping burgers, and living in a trailer park. This is god talking here, you can tell me."
Just give it time, RC.
2012: The year the American Dream died.
"After a hotly contested presidential election Barack Obama and Donald Trump were numerically tied in electoral and popular votes. Instead of having the election decided by the House as defined in the constitution freshman Senator William Kristol proposed a constitutional amendment to make Obama and Trump co-presidents. The news was greeted with joy and enthusiasm throughout our fucked-up nation.
In other news: internet dancing phenom capitol l went on a shooting rampage this morning..."
should we start a bail fund for you now?
Please don't speak to me.
Couldn't you have asked her not to speak to anyone, you selfish piece of shit?
Kristol is just a little chickenshit warmonger. As are all neocons as far as I know.
Is Obama a warmonger? No blood for oil! Be honest, the hate for Kristol is because he's a Jew that wants to defend Israel. To the left, and left libertarian he is a reminder that Israel does have a lot of pull in the US and we have Iran surrounded. Be honest in your hate.
Nice to know Neocons still use Sharpton tactics in order to debate.
Can't we just let each side have their pet spending items? Let the right have defense spending (since the left likes that, too), and the left can have social spending (seeing as the right doesn't mind that either). Then we can simply cut everything else. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
I am totally going to be using this.
As far as you know I invented it, so I want a cut of anything you make off it.
Check's in the mail.
I used to work with a bunch of Brits (long distance). I have heard this so many times, I have lost count.
*rips up check to FoE*
Fuck you, kinnath.
My grandfather use to say "Easy Peasy, Japanesey".
Course, he got the Asian Jungle Fever in WWII.
I'd like the Easy peasy lemon squeezy special
Quit your grin'n and drop your linen.
The only instance I can think of in which deficits should not be a consideration is in the case of national defense. Truly we should be worried about the commiecrats spending, but that in no way translates into endorsing some kind of pussy pacifism. If we do not defeat and occupy the Libyans, but just lob missles at them from the sea, then other dictatorships in the area will take us for being soft and ineffectual, and they may begin ignoring us. National greatness should not be subjected to penny-pinching.
You suck at this. Try a new troll gig.
Either Greggy or this one. We don't need both. Well, I'm mean we need neither, but you see what I'm getting at.
I'd see what you were getting at better if you could actually type a coherent sentence. Can't you murder another language instead? Or rape a dead one, like Latin? You like necrophilia, right?
Only if they are mostly dead.
What do you do if they're all dead?
CPR?
No. The correct answer is "go through their pockets and look for loose change." Duh.
Again with this "troll" nonsense. I disagree with you, on a great many topics. If all you wanted was an echo-chamber for your own ideas, why get on the internet? Why do you think I'm here for Pete's sake? To get exposure to new ideas.
Please explain how dropping turds such as this:
National greatness should not be subjected to penny-pinching.
is exposing people to new ideas. What is the idea here? What is the new thought that nobody here has heard before and isn't utter bullshit?
Please answer with as few bellicose platitudes as possible, fatty.
1) If the criteria for not being a troll is to have a completely "new thought that nobody here has heard before", then 99% of the people on here are trolls. That's a ridiculous standard, and you know it.
2) "...and isn't utter bullshit" is as subjective a criteria as can possibly be. If I don't think something is bullshit, and you do, who's right?
Now, if you care to try again, I'll still be here.
If I don't think something is bullshit, and you do, who's right?
Not you. That's who.
Did I say "troll"?
Did I ask for some smart ass response? Answer the fucking questions that you were asked.
Fuck you. You do not command me, any more than I do you. There is no "new thought" that no one has never heard before. It is a thought which is not often expressed here. You do not posit brand new thoughts which no one has ever had before every time you post, and I resent being told that I'm held to some kind of higher standard than you are.
Well, by your standards, abiding by the constitution is 'pussy pacifism', so you're either fucking retarded or fucking rather.
Didn't Republicans puss-out when it came to Georgia in 2008?
Weren't the Marines chickenshit by sitting off the Liberian coast during their civil war?
Isn't the Armed Services a complete welfare entity?
What did Reagan do when the Marines hit 'tough-going' in Lebanon in '83?
Yes because a naval group commander has full discretion on when to invade foreign lands.. idiot.
Re: 1980 Redux,
You misundestand, we're not saying you're a troll. We are saying you suck at being a troll. You're too transparent, Redux.
Someone is going to have to explain this to me. I'm "transparent"? I should hope so; I make my beliefs as plain as I possibly can. Again, how does this make someone a troll? As far as I can tell, around here it just means that I don't follow libertarian dogma.
STOP DIGGING. Just fucking give it up and try again. We have high standards for trolls here--at least we try to--and you're not up to it.
A man can dream, can't he?
Miss me yet?
No.
80 redux - ur attempting to break the circle jerk wherein these "regulars" serve as each other's polysyllabic orgasmitrons. in the end, all that's left is the dribble
I'm starting to figure that out. I thought I'd try to expand my horizons, but since all I see is unmitigated hostility for anyone who doesn't agree with them, I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it. If they think that cursing and casting stones is the way to convince people of the correctness of their positions, it's no wonder the Republicans and dems don't fear their pathetic "alternative" position.
No, you came here spoutin off at the mouth with belligerence, and now want to act the aggrieved party.
If you roll into a place of like-minded people being a loudmouth, saying things that are anathema to those people, then expect what you got here.
And orrin, er sorry, PFC Dipshit, you have contributed exactly nothing to any conversation here ever. If I were a thinking liberal like Minge I would be ashamed to have you on my team.
And what part of my original post was "belligerent"? I think the rhetoric was escalated by the people responding to me.
I don't expect agreement. I expect debate. Instead I get name-calling. There's nothing of intellectual substance to a great many commenters here.
I don't agree with your original post, but you're right, these guys are being doosh-bags. There is often good debate on this site, so don't give up yet.
On to your point:
First, this civil war is not our business at all. There are many other countries who have much more at stake and are completely capable of taking action. Second, we still have more nukes and the largest army and spend more money on military than all other countries combined, so I don't think we could show weakness even if we wanted to. Third, dictators are crazy and don't have the rational thought that you assign them. We need to come home.
You are currently a member of the military serving in harm's way, right??
Army, 25th ID in Hawaii, then 2/142nd National Guard infantry, 1993-99. I didn't serve in wartime, but I did serve. But point is, I've been in the military and was deployable if a war had developed. Many of my friends are still in, and have served multiple tours. I am well aware of the sacrifice involved.
HERP DERP
So, I take it that the answer is "no, I'm not in harm's way if military personnel need to be deployed."
Why does this matter? It's a volunteer army. The idea that you can't have opinions on foreign policy unless you're in the military is absurd.
and let's extend that. nobody can have opinion on police misconduct, heck on any police conduct, unless they are a cop.
that's equally "logical".
The chickenhawk meme is a stupid Kostard talking point. The power to declare war is in the Congress, and to execute it is in the Presidency. There are age requirements, and citizenship requirements, and that's it. Nothing in there about prior service.
thank you. not just for your comment, but for "Kostard" which I am appropriating. i will insert it into my lexicon. that sounds kind of dirty, actually.
Re: 1980 Redux,
Which means you don't think. You're a lousy troll.
Commiecrats don't spend. They kill.
First you start out talking about National Defense and you end with National Greatness. Which is it, since they are not the same thing. National Defense does not require troops all over the world, nor subsiding the defense of rich allies nor getting involved in other peoples civil wars.
I would respectfully disagree. I believe national defense does require a massive military presence around the globe, in order to at least try to support national interests.
For example, a sudden lack of oil would be crippling, so it is in the interest of national defense to ensure we control oil-producing regions.
If Saudi Arabia and the other wants the US to protect them then they should pay for it, I don't believe in subsides. They can't stop pumping oil since they need the money, the only way they can keep their dictatorships is by buying off their public
Also our troops in Europe, Japan, Korea and many other places have nothing to do with oil so there goes that excuse for those troops
I was just using oil as a quickie explanation, but a strategic presence in other places serves different purposes. We have strong economic ties to South Korea which need protecting, not to mention the increased costs of helping to defend Japan from a Korea unified under northern leadership. Europe is a convenient staging ground for excusions into the Middle East, and has the benefit of having already-in-place infrastructure.
The US spends more then 4 percent GDP on defense while the Japanese spend less then 1 percent and the Koreans only 2 percent. How about the Koreans and the Japanese paying for their own defense. No more welfare for our so-called allies, especially since they take the money they save and out compete our industry and our workers.
Also that 4 percent GDP figure is way low since it does not count the cost of nuclear weapons, much of the retirement and medical costs, the black budget and other "defense" items that are not part of the official defense budget.
Because it gives us leverage over them. It's about control. As long as we're footing the bill and taking the risk for their defense, we have some leeway with telling them what to do. The ability to nudge other nations to take actions which are preferable to us, is in American interests.
Now you aren't even pretending.
Leverage to have them do what, not pay for their own defense? Open their markets, they laugh at that. What are we getting that is worth 100's of billions of dollars?
Now that is a question which I believe is open to debate. I'd like to think that we force them into supporting us in international decision making, but I don't always see that. I am open to the idea that the value we get from essentially having a Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads, is not worth the cost of said sword.
Not when it costs the amount that it does. And you're dead wrong that the military presence in those countries translates to producing desired outcomes.
The only reason that is true is because we have been using our military to subsidize the price of oil so long that we don't have any other options. If we had let the market work the way it's supposed to we would not be in this position.
I think the one area where deficits shouldn't matter is employment. Then the problem almost takes care of itself. And there are fewer dead Arab babies.
Let's all work for the government! Wealth appears magically from nowhere! I love unicorns!
That's more realistic than Tony's statement. How does the problem take care of itself. I'm wanting to laugh, Tony.
Did left wing apologist Tony just flip on Libya?
God i hope so cuz that would be awesome.
What you can't coherently claim is that we need to both (a) bring our financial house in order or face fiscal ruin and (b) embark on one expensive open-ended military adventure after another.
Kristol and his ilk can't, but "you" certainly can.
1) Say that only libertarian-ly justifiable functions of gov't can continue to be funded, in light of looming fiscal bla bla bla.
B) Say that national defense is one of those functions, as libertarians have traditionally said.
?) Define "national defense" as broadly as politicians and the politician-faithful public generally do.
It's b.s., but it's not incoherent. War is relatively cheap. If the state did little else, it wouldn't be broke.
"War was a sure safeguard of sanity, and so far as the ruling classes were concerned it was probably the most important of all safeguards. While wars could be won or lost, no ruling class could be completely irresponsible."
-1984
Fighting totalitarianism is in our national interest.
You seem to think that is bs, but at least you grant it isn't incoherent.
Thinking that government has some legitimate functions, and wanting to spend money on those, while at the same time cutting overall spending, is not inconsistent.
I'm seeing more and more intellectually dishonest, and even hysterical, articles at Reason.
It's in our interest when we're not dead-broke and politically deadlocked. It's in our interest when said totalitarians are in control of dirt-poor 3rd world countries and have completely negligible influence in world politics. It's not in our interest when absent any major, state-based existential threats, military spending continues to increase.
Sorry, those should all be "It's not", the beginning of the 2nd sentence is a typo.
We're really doomed.
weren't u in times square last weekend? yea w the horrendous turdbreath
Duh, we're using cruise fucking missiles to destroy 50 year old ex soviet tanks.
Shooting people with golden bullets would be more economical.
TURN YOUR BULLETS INTO CASH!
Bullets of pure love...
Sapphire bullets of pure love?
So, really, what you're saying is that we're
A)getting rid of a guy who wouldn't buy weapons from us
B)supporting people to possible victory who will potentially buy weapons from us
It all seems so clear now.
We're using cruise missiles to kill camels.
Can we just use something cheaper? Gattling guns? Bazookas? The ****ing cavalry?
The cruise missle point drives this home.
What I want to know is when he'll be making the sequel to 'Mr. Saturday Night'
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Engineers and fiber optics have combined,
surveillance methods so advanced and refined,
that technology has created a "quantum peep hole".
Behold the future: smart bombs and dumb people.
I'm still say it is four foreign wars. Pakistan should count.
Then there's the WoD, WoPrivacy, WoHealth, etc.
Don't forget Korea. Technically, still a war (currently resting with a cease-fire).
Don't forget US drones bombing Yemen.
War of the Worlds, World of Warcraft, and all those Star Wars.
"It's not profligacy when we get to kill Ayr-abs."
Minor threadjack: Toshiba introduces 3D monocle.
I think I see Bill Kristol in a lot of those chick-fights on YouTube.
The only instance I can think of in which deficits should not be a consideration is in the case of national defense.
I actually agree with the troll on this. Of course, by "national defense" I mean actually, you know, defending the nation.
Not even Obama and the three harpies have tried to pass off the Libyan exercise in kinetic military procurement as "national defense".
Saying that we should fund national defense isn't the same thing as saying we shouldn't consider deficits when funding national defense.
"Obama and the three harpies"
awful band. save your money.
How would I ever know what to think without geniuses like Bill Kristol and his gimp life partner Charles Krauthammer?
I think Bill Kristol is in a contest with Christ Hitchens to see who can endorse the most wars without actually fighting or sacrificing for them
HAHAHAHAHA HOLY SHIT! CHRIST HITCHENS!!!!
That was truly a typo, but wow.
then they be fat suburbanites driving a gas guzzler too far to work w a support the troops magnet.
As much as I hate Bill fucking Kristol, you can't call him a hypocrite, unlike some of the other pundits from Fox.
True enough. He loves to watch the world burn while dressing stylishly, and he doesn't hide it for one second. Evil, yes, but a hypocrite, nah.
Dude looks like Clint Howard to boot.
No, he looks more like the scar-faced Nazi who guards the gold stash in Kelly's Heroes.
Don't criticize a Neocon on the cost of the Libya intervention; it's the most cost effective use of the military I can recall.
Cost effective, what benefit am I getting from it?
@DJF:
Do you think one less totalitarian government in the world makes you better off or worse off? Or do you think it has no effect on you?
First, we don't know what a new government if any will be so don't count on it being less totalitarian.
Libya has had no effect on me since I was in the Navy years ago and had to cruise up and down the coast of Libya for some useless reason. How about you, how does Libya effect you?
I want to know what those people who criticize libertarians for not engaging those with differing views constructively - demonizing them, as they say - I want to know what those people think of the likes of Bill Kristol or, say, Krauthammer or Frum? Are these merely people of good will with legitimately differing opinions??? And there are plenty morally equivalent on the left.
Unfortunately there's a whole lot of demonizing, not a lot of constructive anything. The only thing they'll legitimately debate is nuances within libertarianism, but if you're hardcore right or left wing, you'll get nothing but petty insults and venom. All they do is attack you, not your positions.
You used the words 'pussy pacifism':
We can easily defeat Libya. Occupying them? -- I would consider people that are under occupation by a foreign power true pussies if they don't fight back against their oppressors.
Bill Kristol is perfectly fine with the welfare state of Israel with its universal healthcare on our dime.
Very simple: "To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;"
How long have we been in Iraq? Afghanistan? How long will the Libya intervention last? When was the last time we actually, you know, declared war? You say "pussy pacifism", but I respond to you: Un-american, unconstitutional, unpatriotic welfare queen.
Explain to me how the United States of America was threatened by the military of Libya that required us to use an institution meant purely for national defense. I like how you talk about "commiecrats", but you are playing fast-and-loose with rule of law and precedent principles just as much as any commie i've ever seen.
Hitler: Declared War on the US
Japan: Attacked the US
USSR: Had a bunch of missles pointed at the US
Gaddafi: Killing his own citizens, within his own borders.
Further, you seem to take for granted that every single penny spent in the military goes to good use - that there's no waste or corruption there. All the constant out-of-area "freedom" interventions are doing, is setting up a war-welfare state where a guy with barely a GED can repair helicopters for a few decades, then retire with an insane pension and benefits.
Welfare queen.
If we don't use our stock pile of cruise missiles (presumably we already paid the contractors who manufactured them), than the government is being inefficient with tax dollars(I know, it's hard to believe).
I mean we can't just let our boom-boom sticks rust.
So I say we have war until we run out of cool shit and then go home (I am being sarcastic yet I feel this may actually be what happens as it relates to U.S's foreign policy predicament).
So why not just burn off your missiles on Israel?
That would solve two problems (at least) with one rock, to mix metaphors.
Every time a non-Democrat criticizes measures and wars we support and perpetrate, God kills a cripple. You people are mass-murderers.
Jesse "I'm really on the left" Walker knows more about gyrations than a gyrator.
1980, keep it up. You're great. Most of the clowns here are pathetic anti-souls who hide under imaginary moral preening in order to justify complete inaction.
As in:
- I'm too smart to vote. I stay at home and play with my Rothbard figurines.
- Sure, I'm in favor of personal property rights. But gosh, no! Police, military and immigration officials should never be employed to protect those rights.
- All govt. is bad, except for gay marriage. We need govt. for that. Plus, you know, the cocktail circuit....
Flame away....
I would like to propose a simple way for the country to get its financial house in order, and still be "the World's Policeman". First: we stop paying foreign governments "rent" to have US military bases in their countries. By our being there these governments have been able to reduce their own Defense budgets while collecting rent. Our government should be charging security fees to these countries. In other words we become the world's private security force. Can't you just hear the radio ads: "Hey EU, your oil in jeopardy in Libya? A quick call to AMCo - American Mercenary Co - and we'll keep that crude flowing!"
the argument of conservatives that we should be in japan, korea, germany, etc. because they are kinda related to our national interest is just as much of a stretch as all the crap progressives say about being alive affecting the interstate commerce of health care.
if someone wants to define national interest, and the healthcare market that broadly, they literally lose all meaning because they mean all things.
saying something is green is meaningless if every fucking wavelength in the electromagnetic spectrum is called green.
I should just put the following in my clipboard, I post it so much, but it is the truth none-the-less:
The Republic is dead, Long Live the Empire
We have troops stationed all over the world, and intervene in so many places, not to defend our borders, but because that is how the game of Empire is played.
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